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Old 05-02-2017, 11:49 AM   #1001
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I have no issue with Christians, or Evangelicals, or Pastors being vocally active in politics, but they don't speak for me, they don't speak for Christ.

Just like Paul said, as citizens we have certain rights.

If Christians were prohibited from voting and speaking, then they would be ignored and their concerns irrelevant during an election.

But just because someone is a christians and says they support a certain candidate doesn't have anything to do with me. I disagree with Christians about many things.
Some of the posters here spent so much time in that hot-bed-radical-south-Florida-version of the LCM under Mel Porter that can't conceive of other Christians holding diverse points of view.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:56 AM   #1002
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Bahahahaha .. this coming from the most exclusive contributor on AltV's.
Cheer up bro!

I don't think you are the most exclusive.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:07 PM   #1003
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Can't you see thru this hypocrisy? Why is it so hard for you? You can't keep blaming Kentuckian Evangelicals for this mess.
Of course I see thru the hypocrisy. I'm not blind. Just as I see thru the hypocrisy of this Trump admin.

And the population of the whole state of Ky is only 4 million. So Ky is not even close to being blameable for this mess. Although, we do have a few hotspot pollution centers in the state ; one chemical company right here in town, that stinks ; and a city I grew up in, with industries, that's been sued by counties up wind for causing higher cancer rates.

These kinds of pollution matters don't care about political parties, they'll make conservatives and liberals sick alike.

I don't know why pollution of our air, water, and food, is a political matter. Both liberals and conservatives depend on them being clean and wholesome.

And yes it's irksome to hear some kale eating liberals spouting environment, environment, environment, while flying around in private jets, to preach to me about cutting greenhouse gases.

If they really practiced what they are preaching with the same zeal, then they'd be living off the gird.

But then we have ones like Wendell Berry, a good ol' Ky boy, that pretty much lives what he preaches concerning the environment.

I consider that I have a personal vested interest in the environment, in clean air, water, and food. I'm for anyone that is concerned about them. And I don't care if they identify as liberal or conservative.

I just don't think that crapping in our nest is a good idea ... whether it's liberal fecal matter, or conservative.

And I've noticed that no one wants to talk about the elephant in the room, that, it's the heat of the loins that's causing global warming ... and both conservatives and liberals are to blame for it.

Tho I do have to point out that Trump's appointment to head up Title X family planning for our nation's poor, Teresa Manning, is a contraception skeptic.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:37 PM   #1004
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I was disappointed that so many Evangelical Christians, who consider themselves to be the only true Christians voted for the flagrantly immoral Donald Trump. But, I have heard a number of them say, that they only did it because they saw him as the lesser evil when compared with Hilary Clinton. That makes their choice a little more understandable to me. Especially since many of them watch Fox News 24/7 where Hilary Clinton has been demonized for years. Plus, maybe they are fans of Trump from The Apprentice where he popularized his image for mass consumption. Can we agree that manipulation of the sheeple by the media circus is disgusting? Trump played the populace brilliantly from the get-go planting in our brains the image of himself coming down the escalator like a god descending from the clouds to intercourse with we the mere mortal earthing voter/citizens. Hallelujah! Thank you Trumpus!, not.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:30 AM   #1005
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It's so sad to see my ultra-liberal friends here, having long chucked the truths of the Gospel along with the rest of the Recovery, only to embrace a radical Green Religion far more pernicious than the one they left. Their new religion worships Mother Earth, having replaced that of Father God, and has all the same trappings of LC exclusivity in the name of "science," their new holy "bible."
Yup one good thing about the LC is you can't call us liberals. Fundamentalism all the way! I'm so touched you would make a positive comment about the LC it's almost making me want to invite you for a potluck dinner!
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:33 AM   #1006
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I thought I made that plain by not including voting in the politicking. And I'm not just speaking of one evangelical like Falwell. Franklin Graham, and many other evangelicals have been pitching Trump.

In fact, you are the only evangelical I know that don't support Trump. Here in Ky I'm surrounded by evangelical Trump supporters.
ZNP ain't evangelical. He believe in EVILution. Kidding.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:37 AM   #1007
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I was disappointed that so many Evangelical Christians, who consider themselves to be the only true Christians voted for the flagrantly immoral Donald Trump. But, I have heard a number of them say, that they only did it because they saw him as the lesser evil when compared with Hilary Clinton. That makes their choice a little more understandable to me. Especially since many of them watch Fox News 24/7 where Hilary Clinton has been demonized for years. Plus, maybe they are fans of Trump from The Apprentice where he popularized his image for mass consumption. Can we agree that manipulation of the sheeple by the media circus is disgusting? Trump played the populace brilliantly from the get-go planting in our brains the image of himself coming down the escalator like a god descending from the clouds to intercourse with we the mere mortal earthing voter/citizens. Hallelujah! Thank you Trumpus!, not.
Trump is God's chosen and will solve all the problems. That's really all that counts. Don't you follow the prophecies on charisma magazine? Seriously, Trump does pray. So he's doing something right. He prayed for the Apprentice TV ratings. Politics, it's just a game. President is just a job that has to be filled by someone. Who that someone is doesn't change things too much. The debt clock is still ticking. NK still wants to blow up Washington, and Assange is still in London. In these moments it's good to read about the Universality and Centrality of Christ, by W. Lee. And remember the all-inclusive processed and consummated Triune God is in control.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:25 AM   #1008
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I was disappointed that so many Evangelical Christians, who consider themselves to be the only true Christians voted for the flagrantly immoral Donald Trump. But, I have heard a number of them say, that they only did it because they saw him as the lesser evil when compared with Hilary Clinton. That makes their choice a little more understandable to me. Especially since many of them watch Fox News 24/7 where Hilary Clinton has been demonized for years. Plus, maybe they are fans of Trump from The Apprentice where he popularized his image for mass consumption. Can we agree that manipulation of the sheeple by the media circus is disgusting? Trump played the populace brilliantly from the get-go planting in our brains the image of himself coming down the escalator like a god descending from the clouds to intercourse with we the mere mortal earthing voter/citizens. Hallelujah! Thank you Trumpus!, not.
I look at it differently. I figure the best thing that could possibly have happened to Clinton was to run against Trump. If she can't beat that guy then she should not be president. If you told me she was going to run against Trump and to put a cherry on top he would insult Gold Star parents coming out of the convention and just to make sure there is no way you could lose the Billy Bush tape would also be released. If she were honest she would realize she was given a gift in running against trump, they put whipped cream on that gift with his insults of various war heroes and they put a cherry on top with his very clear admittance of sexual misconduct and deviant behavior.

But instead she want to blame her "enemies". She is her biggest enemy.

Comey had no affect on me and Putin didn't either. Putting classified emails on her private server to get around freedom of information, and using her position at the State department to enrich her self through her foundation. Those are the two reasons I would not, under any circumstances vote for her.

To me this last election was like going to a restaurant during a blackout and they say "look, this chicken has been out for a few days and smells bad" the other choice is this cole slaw made with mayo that has also been out for a few days and smells bad. Which one do you want?

I chose to fast.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:29 AM   #1009
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ZNP ain't evangelical. He believe in EVILution. Kidding.
You better take that back! I believe in Jesus.

Evolution is simply another example of clueless scientists stealing from the Bible and trying to get credit for it because they lack any creativity. Darwin's crime is not blasphemy, in fact I wouldn't even blame him for plagiarism. His crime is not giving credit to the Bible for his ideas.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:31 AM   #1010
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Trump is God's chosen and will solve all the problems. That's really all that counts. Don't you follow the prophecies on charisma magazine? Seriously, Trump does pray. So he's doing something right. He prayed for the Apprentice TV ratings. Politics, it's just a game. President is just a job that has to be filled by someone. Who that someone is doesn't change things too much. The debt clock is still ticking. NK still wants to blow up Washington, and Assange is still in London. In these moments it's good to read about the Universality and Centrality of Christ, by W. Lee. And remember the all-inclusive processed and consummated Triune God is in control.
Yeah Zeek, read "the all inclusive processed and consummated Triune God" by WL and chill out.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:47 AM   #1011
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I look at it differently. I figure the best thing that could possibly have happened to Clinton was to run against Trump. If she can't beat that guy then she should not be president. If you told me she was going to run against Trump and to put a cherry on top he would insult Gold Star parents coming out of the convention and just to make sure there is no way you could lose the Billy Bush tape would also be released. If she were honest she would realize she was given a gift in running against trump, they put whipped cream on that gift with his insults of various war heroes and they put a cherry on top with his very clear admittance of sexual misconduct and deviant behavior.

But instead she want to blame her "enemies". She is her biggest enemy.

Comey had no affect on me and Putin didn't either. Putting classified emails on her private server to get around freedom of information, and using her position at the State department to enrich her self through her foundation. Those are the two reasons I would not, under any circumstances vote for her.

To me this last election was like going to a restaurant during a blackout and they say "look, this chicken has been out for a few days and smells bad" the other choice is this cole slaw made with mayo that has also been out for a few days and smells bad. Which one do you want?

I chose to fast.
I "fasted" during the primary, but that was also for another reason. But not against Hillary. She was far too scary.

I agree Trump did and said stupid things. Ole zeek still has no clue why Trump won and Hillary lost. Talk about stupid -- when Trump said McCain was not a war hero because he prefers soldiers who did not get caught. What? McCain was a pilot shot down, his dad was a distinguished admiral, and he was tortured in prison for years. Now I don't really care for all McCain's decisions -- like dumping his wife after coming home -- and his policies -- like not opposing abortion -- but who would dare say he was not a hero?

Then Trump never learned a thing, and went after that gold star Muslim family that lost their son in the war. Talk about stupid! Perhaps Bannon and Conway talked some sense into him.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:19 AM   #1012
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I "fasted" during the primary, but that was also for another reason. But not against Hillary. She was far too scary.

I agree Trump did and said stupid things. Ole zeek still has no clue why Trump won and Hillary lost. Talk about stupid -- when Trump said McCain was not a war hero because he prefers soldiers who did not get caught. What? McCain was a pilot shot down, his dad was a distinguished admiral, and he was tortured in prison for years. Now I don't really care for all McCain's decisions -- like dumping his wife after coming home -- and his policies -- like not opposing abortion -- but who would dare say he was not a hero?

Then Trump never learned a thing, and went after that gold star Muslim family that lost their son in the war. Talk about stupid! Perhaps Bannon and Conway talked some sense into him.
People are fed up with Washington insider politics as usual. Trump ran against that. That's basically why he won and why Sanders would have been more effective against him than Clinton.
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Old 05-03-2017, 09:52 AM   #1013
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People are fed up with Washington insider politics as usual. Trump ran against that. That's basically why he won and why Sanders would have been more effective against him than Clinton.
That's just your speculation.

I have prolly heard a dozen excuses for Hillary, none of which owned up to her being crooked, incompetent, and connected with too many dead people.

Regardless of Bernie's popularity, he still ran as a socialist against basically a populist outsider. After 8 years of Obama, the country was moving right, as evidenced by Republican gains since 2010.

Since the Republican congress can't work together, watch for the country to move left again in 2018.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:04 AM   #1014
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People are fed up with Washington insider politics as usual. Trump ran against that. That's basically why he won and why Sanders would have been more effective against him than Clinton.
Not just that. As much as he comes across as an idiot, he also comes across as "frank", to the point.

The reason the Billy Bush thing didn't destroy him is that he doesn't obfuscate the way politicians do. The coverup is often bigger than the crime. There is no cover up, he simply refuses to give us his tax return.

Also, he comes across as someone who might be able to bring jobs back.

Remember, this was the least popular president ever, received 3 million votes less than the loser. This was not a Ronald Reagan victory. There is no indication that those who voted for him did so for any other reason than that they hoped he might be better.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:45 AM   #1015
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Remember, this was the least popular president ever, received 3 million votes less than the loser.
Regarding popularity, can we ever believe the polls again?

Regarding votes, that's like the Super Bowl loser declaring victory because their team amassed more yards -- a totally different game with a totally different strategy.

How do we know whether 3 million solid Blue State Republicans just stayed home because their votes were meaningless? My brother lives in Sacramento, CA and feels voting there has basically become a waste of time for conservatives.
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:16 PM   #1016
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That's just your speculation.
No kidding?! I just come here for arrogance therapy.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:12 PM   #1017
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No kidding?! I just come here for arrogance therapy.
I do think you could use some arrogance therapy. You came to the right place.

Is that like anger management?
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:39 PM   #1018
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Regarding popularity, can we ever believe the polls again?

Regarding votes, that's like the Super Bowl loser declaring victory because their team amassed more yards -- a totally different game with a totally different strategy.

How do we know whether 3 million solid Blue State Republicans just stayed home because their votes were meaningless? My brother lives in Sacramento, CA and feels voting there has basically become a waste of time for conservatives.
There is no doubt that one of the by products of the Electoral college is that you have "blue states" and "red states" and this reduces the number of voters. If you know how the state is going to vote then your vote is meaningless.

The candidates know this as well and only campaign in swing states. Candidates deemphasize 40 states.

Another very negative impact of this are policies that do not make sense, but one or two states like them, hence they are untouchable.

So then it is anti democratic and promotes policies that are not advantageous for the majority.

Ultimately this results in a feeling of disenfranchisement. People who aren't involved in the process and don't feel like this government represents them.

A step halfway towards full democracy is to only award 100% of electoral votes if the person wins by 10% or more. Less than that you divide the electoral votes proportionally.
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Old 05-03-2017, 01:42 PM   #1019
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No kidding?! I just come here for arrogance therapy.
I come here to learn patience. Also this forces me to pray for wisdom, another benefit of this forum.
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Old 05-03-2017, 02:01 PM   #1020
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OK -- simple logical progression.

1. I believe that God is omniscient. Standard belief for most fundamental Christians though I suppose it is up for interpretation exactly what that means to each individual.

2. I also feel, based on the evidence I have seen, that pollution from the industrial revolution is going to result in . . . .
blah blah blah . . . .

In other words, you want to take a scenario that you find compelling and work hard to string a number of passages together and force them to be a unit that makes your case.

They call that eisegesis, "an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text."

Consistent with so many other rabbit trails you have gallivanted along.
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Old 05-03-2017, 02:09 PM   #1021
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Trump is God's chosen and will solve all the problems. That's really all that counts.
Why do we think that Trump is God's chosen? Because God is sovereign?

If so, they does that mean that God thought 8 years of Obama was a good thing? If so then we have to rethink the prior 8 years.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:11 PM   #1022
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I do think you could use some arrogance therapy. You came to the right place.

Is that like anger management?
I think you have something in your eye. Would you like me to remove it? Where did I put that icepick?

Right, arrogance management. It's an Alt Views thing.
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Old 05-03-2017, 03:15 PM   #1023
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I come here to learn patience. Also this forces me to pray for wisdom, another benefit of this forum.
Alt Views--it's transformational!
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:17 PM   #1024
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There is no doubt that one of the by products of the Electoral college is that you have "blue states" and "red states" and this reduces the number of voters. If you know how the state is going to vote then your vote is meaningless.

The candidates know this as well and only campaign in swing states. Candidates deemphasize 40 states.

Another very negative impact of this are policies that do not make sense, but one or two states like them, hence they are untouchable.

So then it is anti democratic and promotes policies that are not advantageous for the majority.

Ultimately this results in a feeling of disenfranchisement. People who aren't involved in the process and don't feel like this government represents them.

A step halfway towards full democracy is to only award 100% of electoral votes if the person wins by 10% or more. Less than that you divide the electoral votes proportionally.
The electoral college was a compromise. The original plan was to have our reps pick a Prez. You would have really hated that program. Remember our history -- we were initially a collection of STATES joined for a common purpose. The US Gov't was never supposed to be big, rather a protection of national defense. The Founders would be shocked at the outcome we now have.

The USA is not a democracy. It is a republic of laws. Have you forgotten? The smaller states will NEVER give up the electoral college system. Like it or not, it's here to stay.

Another crazy part of the election process is the power given to Iowa. It all but guarantees that we'll be burning corn in our engines. Totally stupid idea! There is nothing "renewable" about corn ethanol. Take away the petrochemical fertilizers and Monsanto's GMO corn, and nothing else could grow in Iowa.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:21 PM   #1025
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You better take that back! I believe in Jesus.

Evolution is simply another example of clueless scientists stealing from the Bible and trying to get credit for it because they lack any creativity. Darwin's crime is not blasphemy, in fact I wouldn't even blame him for plagiarism. His crime is not giving credit to the Bible for his ideas.
It's just that Evangelicalism and 7 day Creation usually go hand in hand, like the words Ken and Ham. So Awareness's assessment of you being the only evangelical he knows who doesn't support Trump, might be a misinterpretation on his part about what Evangelicals believe.
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:23 PM   #1026
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I think you have something in your eye. Would you like me to remove it? Where did I put that icepick?

Right, arrogance management. It's an Alt Views thing.
It was you who brought up "arrogance therapy" not me. Perhaps you happened to look in the mirror, didn't like what you saw, and then smashed it with that ice pick!

And, btw, who has icepicks in Florida? Aren't you the one who preaches hellfire and global warming?
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Old 05-03-2017, 05:23 PM   #1027
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Why do we think that Trump is God's chosen? Because God is sovereign?

If so, they does that mean that God thought 8 years of Obama was a good thing? If so then we have to rethink the prior 8 years.
God is good and God is good all the time. So yes. 8 years of Obama was good. Regardless of who is in power, we have to pray for the leaders. Do we have to like them or agree with everything they do. No.
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:25 PM   #1028
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Yup one good thing about the LC is you can't call us liberals. Fundamentalism all the way! I'm so touched you would make a positive comment about the LC it's almost making me want to invite you for a potluck dinner!
Don't you mean "Love Feast?" Or is it called potluck now?
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Old 05-03-2017, 07:40 PM   #1029
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I do think you could use some arrogance therapy. You came to the right place.
I don't know about zeek. But screw arrogance therapy. I'M NOT ARROGANT !!!
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:02 PM   #1030
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Trump is God's chosen
Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And that not only goes for Trump, but for Obama, Bush, Clinton, and all the rest.

I'm on a prophecy forum and they are saying Trump is a Cyrus the Great. He said he'd move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. They believe he will make for the rebuilding of the temple, that must happen for Jesus to return.

Who knows. These rapture nuts might be wrong. Trump could be Nebuchadnezzar.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:03 PM   #1031
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I don't know about zeek. But screw arrogance therapy. I'M NOT ARROGANT !!!
zeek dealing in arrogance therapy, and Assange intelligence porn.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:08 PM   #1032
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Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And that not only goes for Trump, but for Obama, Bush, Clinton, and all the rest.

I'm on a prophecy forum and they are saying Trump is a Cyrus the Great. He said he'd move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. They believe he will make for the rebuilding of the temple, that must happen for Jesus to return.

Who knows. These rapture nuts might be wrong. Trump could be Nebuchadnezzar.
You'll just have to wait and see.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:25 PM   #1033
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It's just that Evangelicalism and 7 day Creation usually go hand in hand, like the words Ken and Ham. So Awareness's assessment of you being the only evangelical he knows who doesn't support Trump, might be a misinterpretation on his part about what Evangelicals believe.
Yes, only around 85% of evangelicals supported Trump. So 15% didn't. Bro ZNP might be in the 15%. But then, it sounds like even he voted for Trump.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:35 PM   #1034
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Don't you mean "Love Feast?" Or is it called potluck now?
Either. But you really do have to watch those crab cakes.
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Old 05-03-2017, 08:38 PM   #1035
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Rom 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

And that not only goes for Trump, but for Obama, Bush, Clinton, and all the rest.

I'm on a prophecy forum and they are saying Trump is a Cyrus the Great. He said he'd move the embassy in Israel to Jerusalem. They believe he will make for the rebuilding of the temple, that must happen for Jesus to return.

Who knows. These rapture nuts might be wrong. Trump could be Nebuchadnezzar.
Well, America probably has been Babylon the Great for some time now. The political arm of the Roman Empire.
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:16 AM   #1036
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Yes, only around 85% of evangelicals supported Trump. So 15% didn't. Bro ZNP might be in the 15%. But then, it sounds like even he voted for Trump.
I have already stated plainly that I did not vote for president, I opted to not vote. I have also repeated this. If 20 million others who didn't like the person they voted for did that as well it would have forced a bigger political movement than what we are seeing now.

So how could it possibly sound like "he voted for Trump"?
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:18 AM   #1037
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I have already stated plainly that I did not vote for president, I opted to not vote. I have also repeated this. If 20 million others who didn't like the person they voted for did that as well it would have forced a bigger political movement than what we are seeing now.

So how could it possibly sound like "he voted for Trump"?
Sorry about that.

I think the non-voters should be counted ; as those that disbelieve in the choices, or as those that are disenchanted with the political system. Their voices, or lack thereof, should be considered and factored.
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Old 05-04-2017, 07:52 AM   #1038
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Sorry about that.

I think the non-voters should be counted ; as those that disbelieve in the choices, or as those that are disenchanted with the political system. Their voices, or lack thereof, should be considered and factored.
A good friend of mine wrote in "John Kasich" for President. Coming from a crucial swing state, his vote, in effect, helped Hillary, even though he hated to see her win.

When it comes to voting, we should not vote with their hearts, rather with our minds.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:17 AM   #1039
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Sorry about that.

I think the non-voters should be counted ; as those that disbelieve in the choices, or as those that are disenchanted with the political system. Their voices, or lack thereof, should be considered and factored.
Yes, I completely disagree with those who say you are obligated to vote. If we had only had 20 million people vote in the last election (the amount that probably felt very strongly for one or the other candidate) the entire process would have been invalidated. It would have been pointless to claim who got the most votes or who got the most electoral college votes. It would be like a Superbowl that no one watched or turned on. That makes a very loud statement of disapproval of the entire system.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:18 AM   #1040
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A good friend of mine wrote in "John Kasich" for President. Coming from a crucial swing state, his vote, in effect, helped Hillary, even though he hated to see her win.

When it comes to voting, we should not vote with their hearts, rather with our minds.
In my mind I did not want either candidate to claim a "mandate".
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:52 AM   #1041
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In my mind I did not want either candidate to claim a "mandate".
Regardless of who wins, a "mandate" will be claimed, even if it's by a hanging chad.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:54 AM   #1042
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Yes, I completely disagree with those who say you are obligated to vote. If we had only had 20 million people vote in the last election (the amount that probably felt very strongly for one or the other candidate) the entire process would have been invalidated. It would have been pointless to claim who got the most votes or who got the most electoral college votes. It would be like a Superbowl that no one watched or turned on. That makes a very loud statement of disapproval of the entire system.
I'm not sure I can agree. If one side tries to play fair, and the other side cheats, then the good guys lose.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:48 AM   #1043
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Regardless of who wins, a "mandate" will be claimed, even if it's by a hanging chad.
If you have 200 million registered voters, and 100 million voted in the last election and 40 million vote in this election you can claim whatever you want, every politician knows you don't have a mandate and will act accordingly.

When Reagan won by an overwhelming majority everyone feared his mandate. No one fears Trump's "mandate".
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:49 AM   #1044
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I'm not sure I can agree. If one side tries to play fair, and the other side cheats, then the good guys lose.
There were no "good guys". It was guaranteed that the "bad guys" were going to win, I just wanted that to be an empty victory.
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:56 PM   #1045
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God is good and God is good all the time. So yes. 8 years of Obama was good. Regardless of who is in power, we have to pray for the leaders. Do we have to like them or agree with everything they do. No.
Finally something that we can at least partly agree on.

We get what we get and we are charged to pray for all of them.

What we may not agree on is whether God is specifically deciding who will be president (at least in all cases). And if I am right on this (that part of God's sovereignty is exercised in restraint as man exercises his free will) and he might only sometimes direct things, then I cannot say that which ones are which and decide that God would vote Republican, or Democrat. It is clear that if he is actively sovereign in all of it that God does not simply "vote Republican" because we have gotten some that are very "not Republican." And I am not sure what to say about the present Republican (if he really is one).
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Old 05-04-2017, 04:59 PM   #1046
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It's just that Evangelicalism and 7 day Creation usually go hand in hand, like the words Ken and Ham. So Awareness's assessment of you being the only evangelical he knows who doesn't support Trump, might be a misinterpretation on his part about what Evangelicals believe.
Hey, I am very evangelical and don't support Trump (in the sense that I wish he didn't get his way too much). And I don't simply believe in a 7-day creation (or actually 6-day), and am not that enamored with many of the modern apologists, including Mr. Ham.
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:07 PM   #1047
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Finally something that we can at least partly agree on.

We get what we get and we are charged to pray for all of them.

What we may not agree on is whether God is specifically deciding who will be president (at least in all cases). And if I am right on this (that part of God's sovereignty is exercised in restraint as man exercises his free will) and he might only sometimes direct things, then I cannot say that which ones are which and decide that God would vote Republican, or Democrat. It is clear that if he is actively sovereign in all of it that God does not simply "vote Republican" because we have gotten some that are very "not Republican." And I am not sure what to say about the present Republican (if he really is one).
I agree that God either puts the leadership in place directly, or He allows it. But pragmatically, we cannot change it, so we have to do the best we can with what we got. What we could do is turn all of the criticisms directed at Trump into a prayer for him about those shortcomings, realizing that God's true purpose in this is to spread the gospel.
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Old 05-04-2017, 05:08 PM   #1048
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Heard a podcast yesterday that had ideas for improving the election outcomes.

Debates with no one in the room so that audience applause or boos do not affect the TV audience more than the things said.

Possibly requiring that everyone who can vote be required to show up at the polls even if they don't want to vote. (Australia actually does this.)

A lot of others.

One of the things that was pointed to as the most problematic in the U.S. is that the focus during campaigns is so much on what are truly marginal but hot-button issues and the result has been the polarization of the parties. The vast middle-ground is not even thought about. They have many normal issues that are worthy of discussion, but since there is no evidence that they are even listened to, and they are not necessarily in sync with the extremes (in terms of the hot-button issues), they just stay home. And we get gridlock in a way that hasn't been seen since the late 1800s.
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Old 05-04-2017, 06:36 PM   #1049
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I agree that God either puts the leadership in place directly, or He allows it. But pragmatically, we cannot change it, so we have to do the best we can with what we got. What we could do is turn all of the criticisms directed at Trump into a prayer for him about those shortcomings, realizing that God's true purpose in this is to spread the gospel.
Jesus is Lord. The real leadership is in place. The NT does not in any way, shape or form suggest that there is a path for salvation apart from Him and that includes climate change legislation, etc. Because of that WN erroneously teaches that Christians should not be involved in the political process (Post #1).

I see this differently. Apart from the Lord we can do nothing. But if Jesus is one with you then I see no reason why you can't "preach the good news" to the issues. After all the Lord gave us talents to invest and we have been told to go out into the entire world, surely that includes the political arena as well, and preach the gospel. And, He promised to be with us to the end of days.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:50 PM   #1050
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I'm not sure I can agree. If one side tries to play fair, and the other side cheats, then the good guys lose.
I agree bro Ohio. Like the pubbies blocking Obama's supreme court appointee, and then ramming down our throats Gorsuch. They didn't play fair. Or is it okay when pubbies don't play fair?
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:54 PM   #1051
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I agree that God either puts the leadership in place directly, or He allows it. But pragmatically, we cannot change it, so we have to do the best we can with what we got. What we could do is turn all of the criticisms directed at Trump into a prayer for him about those shortcomings, realizing that God's true purpose in this is to spread the gospel.
Who the president is has nothing to do with spreading the gospel.

And if all we have is prayer we're in trouble.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:58 PM   #1052
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I agree bro Ohio. Like the pubbies blocking Obama's supreme court appointee, and then ramming down our throats Gorsuch. They didn't play fair. Or is it okay when pubbies don't play fair?
Gorsuch is benign. Never hurt a soul. You won't even get a sore throat. Just drink some green tea and get some rest. You'll feel fine in the morning.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:00 AM   #1053
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Who the president is has nothing to do with spreading the gospel.

And if all we have is prayer we're in trouble.
Emperor Constantine would disagree with you.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:06 AM   #1054
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Jesus is Lord. The real leadership is in place. The NT does not in any way, shape or form suggest that there is a path for salvation apart from Him and that includes climate change legislation, etc. Because of that WN erroneously teaches that Christians should not be involved in the political process (Post #1).

I see this differently. Apart from the Lord we can do nothing. But if Jesus is one with you then I see no reason why you can't "preach the good news" to the issues. After all the Lord gave us talents to invest and we have been told to go out into the entire world, surely that includes the political arena as well, and preach the gospel. And, He promised to be with us to the end of days.
That's about involvement. I'm talking about prayer. Whatever decisions Trump makes affects where, when, and how the gospel is spread around the world. Christianity flourished under Constantine. Trump is more powerful than Constantine. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we are talking about different aspects.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:39 AM   #1055
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Heard a podcast yesterday that had ideas for improving the election outcomes.

Debates with no one in the room so that audience applause or boos do not affect the TV audience more than the things said.

Possibly requiring that everyone who can vote be required to show up at the polls even if they don't want to vote. (Australia actually does this.)

A lot of others.

One of the things that was pointed to as the most problematic in the U.S. is that the focus during campaigns is so much on what are truly marginal but hot-button issues and the result has been the polarization of the parties. The vast middle-ground is not even thought about. They have many normal issues that are worthy of discussion, but since there is no evidence that they are even listened to, and they are not necessarily in sync with the extremes (in terms of the hot-button issues), they just stay home. And we get gridlock in a way that hasn't been seen since the late 1800s.
The bipolar party system has split in such a way that there is little middle ground. This is the system that gave us Clinton and Trump as the only realistic options for POTUS in 2016. That fact alone should be enough to warrant radical rethinking and reform of the system.
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Old 05-05-2017, 03:46 AM   #1056
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The bipolar party system has split in such a way that there is little middle ground. This is the system that gave us Clinton and Trump as the only realistic options for POTUS in 2016. That fact alone should be enough to warrant radical rethinking and reform of the system.
Could have been worse. The establishment wanted to give us Bush and Clinton in 2016.

How could you ever vote for another Democrat after you watched what the DNC did to you and Bernie?

Just recently the DNC chair Perez just excluded me and every other Pro-Life from his party. I can't ever vote for another Democrat. . .
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Old 05-05-2017, 05:31 AM   #1057
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That's about involvement. I'm talking about prayer. Whatever decisions Trump makes affects where, when, and how the gospel is spread around the world. Christianity flourished under Constantine. Trump is more powerful than Constantine. I'm not disagreeing with you. I think we are talking about different aspects.
"Christianity flourished under Constantine"? I assume you are referring to man made religion and not the Body of Christ.

"Trump is more powerful than Constantine" -- How? How is someone in a government with the checks and balances of our constitution and the scrutiny of our press, in a world where we understand "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" to be our right, how is he more powerful than Constantine? Constantine was an emperor of the only superpower, Trump has to deal with other powers like China, Russia, Japan, Europe, India, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:26 AM   #1058
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Could have been worse. The establishment wanted to give us Bush and Clinton in 2016.
I would rather had any of the governors, including Bush, over Trump. I even liked Rubio much more, though he did seem a little short on the experience side (no pun intended). Couldn't put support behind either of my Texas candidates. Just not fit for the task.

We need some moderates. That means either both parties climb down off of the wall at the boundaries of the extremes, or there needs to be a group of significance that represents the middle and forces a different kind of result.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:41 AM   #1059
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I would rather had any of the governors, including Bush, over Trump. I even liked Rubio much more, though he did seem a little short on the experience side (no pun intended). Couldn't put support behind either of my Texas candidates. Just not fit for the task.

We need some moderates. That means either both parties climb down off of the wall at the boundaries of the extremes, or there needs to be a group of significance that represents the middle and forces a different kind of result.
I agree. Although Jeb is more of an autocrat at heart than you might think, he is not the dictator Trump would like to be.
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Old 05-05-2017, 12:26 PM   #1060
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A reasonable voice:"So, it is up to the public to quarantine this presidency by insistently communicating to its elected representatives a steady, rational fear of this man whose combination of impulsivity and credulity render him uniquely unfit to take the nation into a military conflict." http://www.grandforksherald.com/opin...w-what-it-know
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:16 PM   #1061
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I agree. Although Jeb is more of an autocrat at heart than you might think, he is not the dictator Trump would like to be.
A third Bush presidency? Dynasty? Royalty?
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:16 PM   #1062
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I would rather had any of the governors, including Bush, over Trump. I even liked Rubio much more, though he did seem a little short on the experience side (no pun intended). Couldn't put support behind either of my Texas candidates. Just not fit for the task.

We need some moderates. That means either both parties climb down off of the wall at the boundaries of the extremes, or there needs to be a group of significance that represents the middle and forces a different kind of result.
The left, with Schumer, Pelosi, and the Press, will demonize ANY Republican, so we have no idea what a moderate would look like.

I thought Dubya, McCain, and Romney were fairly moderate.

I agree with you that Governors are far better suited for the task, except for pseudo-Christian Jimmy Carter. The problem, however, is that none of them would be willing to go thru what Trump is enduring in order to shake up Washington.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:17 PM   #1063
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A reasonable voice:"So, it is up to the public to quarantine this presidency by insistently communicating to its elected representatives a steady, rational fear of this man whose combination of impulsivity and credulity render him uniquely unfit to take the nation into a military conflict." http://www.grandforksherald.com/opin...w-what-it-know
The internet and many of the social media tools give the electorate a much more powerful voice than they had at the time of the founding fathers. Trump is ideal in motivating these people to be vocal.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:18 PM   #1064
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A third Bush presidency? Dynasty? Royalty?
No more Bush's.

Hey ZNP, what you think of "common core?"
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:23 PM   #1065
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I agree. Although Jeb is more of an autocrat at heart than you might think, he is not the dictator Trump would like to be.
Trump seems, at heart, to be motivated, not by dictator power, but the reversal of Obama's policies, plain and simple. And, I suppose, Obama asked for it, by going after him back on that WHCDinner in 2011.

Trump is not the kind of person that takes to open humiliation by the Obama bully pulpit in front of hundreds.

Dictator? Now we find out that Obama Admin. was spying on Rand Paul too! Just the tip of the iceberg. Had we a decent FBI director, these hoodlums would all be in jail.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:23 PM   #1066
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The internet and many of the social media tools give the electorate a much more powerful voice than they had at the time of the founding fathers. Trump is ideal in motivating these people to be vocal.
A song for you ZNP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep9Vzb6R_58
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:24 PM   #1067
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No more Bush's.

Hey ZNP, what you think of "common core?"
It has had a negligible effect on the science curriculum.

Originally we had to prepare our students to write argumentative essays and the outcome was 20% of the rating for every teacher. I felt that being able to write an argumentative essay was a worthy goal but that it was unreasonable to rate every teacher on this outcome. The union agreed and starting this year the law was changed in NY. This year 50% of my rating is based on the State Regents exam at the end of the year in my subject area. I am quite happy about that as my rating on the exam will very likely be a full score (20/20) which is highly effective. Last year we had 3 teachers in my school get 18/20.

However we still have the argumentative essay as a rating for teachers who are not teaching a class that results in a State exam.

As for common core Algebra I don't know enough to say what I think.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:44 PM   #1068
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The internet and many of the social media tools give the electorate a much more powerful voice than they had at the time of the founding fathers. Trump is ideal in motivating these people to be vocal.
Huh?

Trump is basically leading the "silent majority?"

The opposition party controls the press.
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Old 05-05-2017, 04:54 PM   #1069
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Huh?

Trump is basically leading the "silent majority?"

The opposition party controls the press.
Look at the multitude of protests organized via Facebook, twitter, and other forms of social media.
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Old 05-05-2017, 07:16 PM   #1070
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Look at the multitude of protests organized via Facebook, twitter, and other forms of social media.
I'm looking at them -- check out UC Berkeley, that bastion of free speech, using social media to organize militant protests.

Be honest here -- far more young Blue State millennial liberals are on social media than Red State conservatives. Take me for example, and many of my friends too, I have no presence on social media.
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Old 05-05-2017, 10:44 PM   #1071
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"Christianity flourished under Constantine"? I assume you are referring to man made religion and not the Body of Christ.
Both I guess.

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"Trump is more powerful than Constantine" -- How? How is someone in a government with the checks and balances of our constitution and the scrutiny of our press, in a world where we understand "freedom of speech" and "freedom of the press" to be our right, how is he more powerful than Constantine? Constantine was an emperor of the only superpower, Trump has to deal with other powers like China, Russia, Japan, Europe, India, Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc.
Territory wise, the USA is larger than the Roman Empire. Population too. Militarily, the USA is more powerful than the ancient Roman Empire. Financially, USA is richer than the ancient Roman Empire.

Roman military spending was 2.5% of the empire's GDP. USA is what now, 3-4%?
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Old 05-06-2017, 03:26 AM   #1072
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Both I guess.



Territory wise, the USA is larger than the Roman Empire. Population too. Militarily, the USA is more powerful than the ancient Roman Empire. Financially, USA is richer than the ancient Roman Empire.

Roman military spending was 2.5% of the empire's GDP. USA is what now, 3-4%?
Trump does not "rule" over the territory of the US as Constantine did. He is not an emperor. He is not a Caesar. The fact that the US is more powerful than the ancient Roman empire is obvious to all. That was not your statement.

I would like to think that our President does not have the power of the ancient emperors because of our constitution. Watergate resulting in Nixon's resignation is the evidence of this. It would be laughable to think such a scandal would bring down a Caesar.
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Old 05-07-2017, 02:28 AM   #1073
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Trump does not "rule" over the territory of the US as Constantine did. He is not an emperor. He is not a Caesar. The fact that the US is more powerful than the ancient Roman empire is obvious to all. That was not your statement.

I would like to think that our President does not have the power of the ancient emperors because of our constitution. Watergate resulting in Nixon's resignation is the evidence of this. It would be laughable to think such a scandal would bring down a Caesar.
Militarily he has more power than Constantine. The constitution does not apply to other countries, he could attack Syria at will.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:10 AM   #1074
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Militarily he has more power than Constantine. The constitution does not apply to other countries, he could attack Syria at will.
By your standard, Kim in NK has more power and influence than Constantine, Caesar, Hitler, Mao, etc.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:01 PM   #1075
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This just in.

Jared Kushner is offering in Beijing and Shanghai that if Chinese investors invest $500,000 in his Kushner Jersey real estate business they can get a residency card. Can we say Emoluments Clause?

One more piece of evidence for Los Angeles to push for a Trump impeachment.
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Old 05-07-2017, 04:33 PM   #1076
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By your standard, Kim in NK has more power and influence than Constantine, Caesar, Hitler, Mao, etc.
He has a 1 million strong standing army, which is why the USA is afraid of him. So yes, he's right up there.
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:17 PM   #1077
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He has a 1 million strong standing army, which is why the USA is afraid of him. So yes, he's right up there.
Well I guess this defines your "Trump is more powerful than Constantine" comment. If you have nuclear bomb and might commit suicide similar to Samson, then that makes you powerful in Evangelical's definition.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:01 AM   #1078
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Well I guess this defines your "Trump is more powerful than Constantine" comment. If you have nuclear bomb and might commit suicide similar to Samson, then that makes you powerful in Evangelical's definition.
What is your definition of powerful then? Trump has been showing off the military hardware of the US to demonstrate the power of the US.
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:27 AM   #1079
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What is your definition of powerful then? Trump has been showing off the military hardware of the US to demonstrate the power of the US.
Matthew 18 explains who is the greatest in the kingdom, I would defer to that chapter.

Being able to kill does not make you powerful, being able to raise you from the dead, that is real power.

Being able to stir up a war does not make you powerful, being able to make peace and reconcile the warring parties, that is true power.
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Old 05-08-2017, 01:35 PM   #1080
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What is your definition of powerful then? Trump has been showing off the military hardware of the US to demonstrate the power of the US.
And this is worse than Obama's use of the latest drones?
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Old 05-08-2017, 04:30 PM   #1081
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Being able to kill does not make you powerful
For all the nonsense in Star Wars, Yoda got something right:

"War not make one great. "
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Old 05-08-2017, 06:35 PM   #1082
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Matthew 18 explains who is the greatest in the kingdom, I would defer to that chapter.

Being able to kill does not make you powerful, being able to raise you from the dead, that is real power.

Being able to stir up a war does not make you powerful, being able to make peace and reconcile the warring parties, that is true power.
Why does the USA have weapons then, and nukes. Why does it have so many guns. Take them all away, let's see the "real power" you speak of. Give everyone a trumpet and tell them to march around North Korea 7 times. If only America was Israel. Unlike Israel, the USA's "trust in God" is hidden behind the largest and most powerful military in the world, and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, just in case God does not show up.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:02 AM   #1083
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Why does the USA have weapons then, and nukes. Why does it have so many guns. Take them all away, let's see the "real power" you speak of. Give everyone a trumpet and tell them to march around North Korea 7 times. If only America was Israel. Unlike Israel, the USA's "trust in God" is hidden behind the largest and most powerful military in the world, and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, just in case God does not show up.
There are many kinds of power. A locomotive can have the power to pull thousands of tons of train. That is power.

A nuclear bomb has the power to kill many people.

The resurrection has the power to bring in a new creation.

But you didn't say that the US was more powerful than the Roman Empire, you said that Trump was more powerful than Constantine.

Does Trump have the "power" to obliterate at will? I don't believe so. I believe we have many checks and balances before a president could push the button (except in self defense). But even in self defense Trump would give the order which would then have to be carried out by ranking officers.

I don't believe that Constantine was constrained nearly as much as Trump is. He may not have had nuclear bombs yet he may have killed more people.

So if you are measuring "power" in the number you can kill, potentially Trump can kill more, but realistically, practically, factually Constantine killed more. It is extremely hypothetical to think that Trump, on his own, could decide to nuke another country.

No one who took issue with your comment doubts that the US with a nuclear arsenal has the potential to destroy more people and material than the Roman Empire. We took issue with the comment that Trump was more powerful than a dictator as though the US constitution and all the checks and balances don't apply to him.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:17 AM   #1084
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Why does the USA have weapons then, and nukes. Why does it have so many guns. Take them all away, let's see the "real power" you speak of. Give everyone a trumpet and tell them to march around North Korea 7 times. If only America was Israel. Unlike Israel, the USA's "trust in God" is hidden behind the largest and most powerful military in the world, and one of the largest nuclear arsenals, just in case God does not show up.
If the USA were not a strong country, fighting for the freedoms of others around the world, then you and your country would have no freedoms whatsoever. Ever think of that?
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:20 AM   #1085
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There are many kinds of power. A locomotive can have the power to pull thousands of tons of train. That is power.

A nuclear bomb has the power to kill many people.

The resurrection has the power to bring in a new creation.

But you didn't say that the US was more powerful than the Roman Empire, you said that Trump was more powerful than Constantine.

Does Trump have the "power" to obliterate at will? I don't believe so. I believe we have many checks and balances before a president could push the button (except in self defense). But even in self defense Trump would give the order which would then have to be carried out by ranking officers.

I don't believe that Constantine was constrained nearly as much as Trump is. He may not have had nuclear bombs yet he may have killed more people.

So if you are measuring "power" in the number you can kill, potentially Trump can kill more, but realistically, practically, factually Constantine killed more. It is extremely hypothetical to think that Trump, on his own, could decide to nuke another country.

No one who took issue with your comment doubts that the US with a nuclear arsenal has the potential to destroy more people and material than the Roman Empire. We took issue with the comment that Trump was more powerful than a dictator as though the US constitution and all the checks and balances don't apply to him.
Your post here is way more common sense than EvanGelly can handle in one sitting.
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:43 PM   #1086
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If the USA were not a strong country, fighting for the freedoms of others around the world, then you and your country would have no freedoms whatsoever. Ever think of that?
I agree and I note you define a "strong country" as one that has a powerful military, as I do.
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:56 PM   #1087
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There are many kinds of power. A locomotive can have the power to pull thousands of tons of train. That is power.

A nuclear bomb has the power to kill many people.

The resurrection has the power to bring in a new creation.

But you didn't say that the US was more powerful than the Roman Empire, you said that Trump was more powerful than Constantine.

Does Trump have the "power" to obliterate at will? I don't believe so. I believe we have many checks and balances before a president could push the button (except in self defense). But even in self defense Trump would give the order which would then have to be carried out by ranking officers.

I don't believe that Constantine was constrained nearly as much as Trump is. He may not have had nuclear bombs yet he may have killed more people.

So if you are measuring "power" in the number you can kill, potentially Trump can kill more, but realistically, practically, factually Constantine killed more. It is extremely hypothetical to think that Trump, on his own, could decide to nuke another country.

No one who took issue with your comment doubts that the US with a nuclear arsenal has the potential to destroy more people and material than the Roman Empire. We took issue with the comment that Trump was more powerful than a dictator as though the US constitution and all the checks and balances don't apply to him.
I am surprised that you and Ohio don't know very much about how this all works under your dictator Trump. Yes Trump has that power to obliterate at will, the Commander in Chief has that ability.

Now they’re his. When Trump takes office in January, he will have sole authority over more than 7,000 warheads. There is no failsafe. The whole point of U.S. nuclear weapons control is to make sure that the president — and only the president — can use them if and whenever he decides to do so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.b9dba136a1b0


Trump does not need approval to fire Nukes. No checks and balances stopped Trump firing 59 cruise missiles into Syria, or stopping Obama firing missiles from UAVs in other sovereign countries. The President has to go to Congress only if there is a declaration of war. It's rare for a President to go to Congress before military action is taken.

Trump is more powerful than Constantine because Constantine could only dream of having the power to send 59 cruise missiles or a nuke into another country at will while having dinner with a Chinese president, all without Congressional, or even UN approval.
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Old 05-09-2017, 02:59 PM   #1088
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Your post here is way more common sense than EvanGelly can handle in one sitting.
Well this "non-American" is explaining to you how things really work in your own country. Embarrassing.
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:14 PM   #1089
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For all the nonsense in Star Wars, Yoda got something right:

"War not make one great. "
Yoda right something got. But if Trump fails to live up to his hype about being great he's gonna need a war to regain his greatness. So to him war will make one great ... him. And that's the most important thing to Trump. Look for WWIII. It's necessary to make Trump great.
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:39 PM   #1090
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I am surprised that you and Ohio don't know very much about how this all works under your dictator Trump. Yes Trump has that power to obliterate at will, the Commander in Chief has that ability.
Your boy Obama had the same "power," yet I never heard you express any concerns.

Putin has even more "power" in his arsenal (remember that the US unilaterally disarmed during the last 8 years) and you kept your mouth silent. Why is that?
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:39 PM   #1091
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Well this "non-American" is explaining to you how things really work in your own country. Embarrassing.
You liberals will never get it.
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Old 05-09-2017, 03:40 PM   #1092
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Yoda right something got. But if Trump fails to live up to his hype about being great he's gonna need a war to regain his greatness. So to him war will make one great ... him. And that's the most important thing to Trump. Look for WWIII. It's necessary to make Trump great.
So is that what made FDR so great?
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:16 PM   #1093
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Your boy Obama had the same "power," yet I never heard you express any concerns.

Putin has even more "power" in his arsenal (remember that the US unilaterally disarmed during the last 8 years) and you kept your mouth silent. Why is that?
Because Obama and Putin weren't/aren't provoking Kim King Kong.
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:23 PM   #1094
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I am surprised that you and Ohio don't know very much about how this all works under your dictator Trump. Yes Trump has that power to obliterate at will, the Commander in Chief has that ability.

Now they’re his. When Trump takes office in January, he will have sole authority over more than 7,000 warheads. There is no failsafe. The whole point of U.S. nuclear weapons control is to make sure that the president — and only the president — can use them if and whenever he decides to do so.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.b9dba136a1b0


Trump does not need approval to fire Nukes. No checks and balances stopped Trump firing 59 cruise missiles into Syria, or stopping Obama firing missiles from UAVs in other sovereign countries. The President has to go to Congress only if there is a declaration of war. It's rare for a President to go to Congress before military action is taken.

Trump is more powerful than Constantine because Constantine could only dream of having the power to send 59 cruise missiles or a nuke into another country at will while having dinner with a Chinese president, all without Congressional, or even UN approval.
Spoken like someone who is not a US citizen.

When asked if he approved of the missile strike it was very clear from his response that he had merely given the military approval to do what was necessary. He didn't plan the strike, give the order for the strike, or fire the missiles. Yes, technically he could have, but there are many layers in our government, and as you can see our news reports to the entire world everything that happens, unlike ancient Rome.

Now if Trump were to go off the rails and order a nuclear strike there would be a general who would give the order to fire those missiles, which order would then be carried out by all of the subordinate officers.

In the US, unlike ancient Rome, refusing an order from the President is not seen as treasonous (ask Sally Yates), especially a bogus order to start a nuclear war. In the past people were trained to obey authority, in our country ever since JFK assassination we have been trained more and more to question and be suspicious of authority.
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:24 PM   #1095
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So is that what made FDR so great?
Was FDR claiming to make everything great?
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:24 PM   #1096
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Because Obama and Putin weren't/aren't provoking Kim King Kong.
What? Invading the Ukraine was not provocative?

Enabling N. Korea to become a nuclear power is fine?

This is idiotic.
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Old 05-09-2017, 04:26 PM   #1097
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Was FDR claiming to make everything great?
Trump -- make america great again

FDR -- Happy days are here again
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:24 PM   #1098
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Because Obama and Putin weren't/aren't provoking Kim King Kong.
Provoking?

He (and Iran too with our $billions) has been developing nukes and ballistic missiles while Obama played golf with rock stars and movie stars.

Read this article before you blame Trump -- Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton Are Responsible for North Korea’s Nukes
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:25 PM   #1099
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What? Invading the Ukraine was not provocative?

Enabling N. Korea to become a nuclear power is fine?

This is idiotic.
That defines liberal progressive thinking.
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Old 05-09-2017, 05:46 PM   #1100
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Spoken like someone who is not a US citizen.

Now if Trump were to go off the rails and order a nuclear strike there would be a general who would give the order to fire those missiles, which order would then be carried out by all of the subordinate officers.
It's just incredible to see how the liberal media makes their heads explode with fear. They have taken fearmongering into the 21st century. We got liberals on this forum that scoff at the idea of a future Armageddon, based on biblical prophecy, and now all of a sudden they have all become "believers", claiming Trump will start WWIII.

When it comes to decisions, Trump is a careful and strategic planner. How else does one become so successful? He is a real patriot first, and not a One World Order guy like our last 4 presidents. Yet he is portrayed by the Press as flaky, impulsive, and whimsical as Kim in NK.

It's just amazing to me to see how little negative press that George Soros gets. Here is a wealthy genius hell-bent on taking down all western democracies. The guy is famous for destroying the British pound and the Bank of England. He is funding every liberal activist group out there.

If liberals had a brain, they would know who to fear and who not to fear. Here read this -- Top 10 Reasons George Soros Is Dangerous
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9. Currency manipulation: A large part of Soros’ multibillion-dollar fortune has come from manipulating currencies. During the 1997 Asian financial crisis, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad accused him of bringing down the nation’s currency through his trading activities, and in Thailand he was called an “economic war criminal.” Known as “The Man who Broke the Bank of England,” Soros initiated a British financial crisis by dumping 10 billion sterling, forcing the devaluation of the currency and gaining a billion-dollar profit.

10. Delusions: Soros has repeatedly said that he sees himself as a messianic figure. Who but a megalomaniac would make these comments? “I admit that I have always harbored an exaggerated view of my self-importance—to put it bluntly, I fancied myself as some kind of god” or “I carried some rather potent messianic fantasies with me from childhood, which I felt I had to control, otherwise I might end up in the loony bin.” If only the loony bin were an option. As it is, one of the wealthiest men in the world is using his billions to impose a radical agenda on America.
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Old 05-09-2017, 06:41 PM   #1101
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It seems this thread has become too tame, so let's include a discussion on the recent firing of Comey.

I find it interesting that after being advised that Flynn has been compromised by the Russians Trump fires the woman who told him this a few days later, but takes close to a month to fire Flynn.

Now compare that to firing Comey the same day it comes out in the testimony that he might have misspoke about the email incident. On the surface it seems like a reasonable mistake, thousands of emails were forwarded, it may have seemed from his original testimony that this was done manually, but the issue is that it was done. Hard to know who was at fault for this misunderstanding or even how serious it is, if it is even serious. But to instantly fire him suggests to me this is merely a contrived excuse and not the real reason.

I have to wonder if anyone who touches this question of collusion between Russia and the Trump administration does so knowing that they will be terminated at the first opportunity.

On the other hand if it really is the reason then wow, it really shows how upset Trump is that he won the election.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:04 PM   #1102
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It seems this thread has become too tame, so let's include a discussion on the recent firing of Comey.

I find it interesting that after being advised that Flynn has been compromised by the Russians Trump fires the woman who told him this a few days later, but takes close to a month to fire Flynn.

Now compare that to firing Comey the same day it comes out in the testimony that he might have misspoke about the email incident. On the surface it seems like a reasonable mistake, thousands of emails were forwarded, it may have seemed from his original testimony that this was done manually, but the issue is that it was done. Hard to know who was at fault for this misunderstanding or even how serious it is, if it is even serious. But to instantly fire him suggests to me this is merely a contrived excuse and not the real reason.

I have to wonder if anyone who touches this question of collusion between Russia and the Trump administration does so knowing that they will be terminated at the first opportunity.

On the other hand if it really is the reason then wow, it really shows how upset Trump is that he won the election.
Trump cannot deflect the appearance that he fired Comey because he is investigating Trump campaign's collusion with Russia. His action parallels Nixon firing Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox who was investigating the Watergate break-in. Now Congress must appoint an a special prosecutor to lead an independent investigation into the Russian ties to the Trump campaign.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:16 PM   #1103
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Trump cannot deflect the appearance that he fired Comey because he is investigating Trump campaign's collusion with Russia. His action parallels Nixon firing Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox who was investigating the Watergate break-in. Now Congress must appoint an a special prosecutor to lead an independent investigation into the Russian ties to the Trump campaign.
The appearance is that Trump fired Sally Yates, Flynn and Comey because of this investigation and the potential to drag him down.

It must be a nice world these billionaires live in where they get to appoint the person who is going to oversee the investigation of them.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:42 PM   #1104
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Trump cannot deflect the appearance that he fired Comey because he is investigating Trump campaign's collusion with Russia. His action parallels Nixon firing Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox who was investigating the Watergate break-in. Now Congress must appoint an a special prosecutor to lead an independent investigation into the Russian ties to the Trump campaign.
Director Comey should have been fired last year. His own agency lost confidence in him. His actions violated his authority.

Drain the swamp!

Btw, have you forgotten all the calls for his resignation by the Democrats?

I guess this means that Trump has finally succumbed to Democratic pressure.
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:53 PM   #1105
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Spoken like someone who is not a US citizen.

When asked if he approved of the missile strike it was very clear from his response that he had merely given the military approval to do what was necessary. He didn't plan the strike, give the order for the strike, or fire the missiles. Yes, technically he could have, but there are many layers in our government, and as you can see our news reports to the entire world everything that happens, unlike ancient Rome.

Now if Trump were to go off the rails and order a nuclear strike there would be a general who would give the order to fire those missiles, which order would then be carried out by all of the subordinate officers.

In the US, unlike ancient Rome, refusing an order from the President is not seen as treasonous (ask Sally Yates), especially a bogus order to start a nuclear war. In the past people were trained to obey authority, in our country ever since JFK assassination we have been trained more and more to question and be suspicious of authority.
Of course the president did not fire the missiles himself. What a silly thing to say. He gives the orders. Same with any leader, they give orders, others follow. But what if that person firing the missile was a Trump supporter and believed everything Trump said? Your argument is shot to pieces.

And why did Trump's presidency get people worried about his new found power?

see

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/05/s...odes.html?_r=2


Some scholars (and Wikipedia entries) insist that a system of checks and balances puts the secretary of defense in the decision loop. But Bruce G. Blair, a research scholar at Princeton University who as an Air Force officer would have launched a nuclear missile if an order had come from the president, said that rule applied in the silos but not at the top of the command chain.

“There’s nothing the secretary of defense can do,” Dr. Blair, who wrote a book on nuclear command and control, said in an interview. “He has no authority to refuse or disobey that order.”



Your argument fails because ancient Rome also had checks and balances in their power structure.

https://www.reference.com/history/ch...f9ac785247b74a

The Roman Republic had several items in place to keep any one part of the government from having all the power, including a group of men called tribunes who could veto select items and completely stop acts of administration, limited terms and specific requirements for members in order to move up in the government. Many governments in the modern world are based, at least in part, on the model of the Roman Republic, including the United States.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-man_rule
"The two-man rule only applies in the missile silos and submarines; there is no check on the president's sole authority to order a nuclear launch"
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Old 05-09-2017, 07:59 PM   #1106
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Provoking?

He (and Iran too with our $billions) has been developing nukes and ballistic missiles while Obama played golf with rock stars and movie stars.

Read this article before you blame Trump -- Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton Are Responsible for North Korea’s Nukes
Yes because America bombed their poor country to pieces during the Korean War.

You need to read this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.79cb01fac346

like most Americans, educate yourself about your own country.

Although the ferocity of the bombing was criticized as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world, it was never a big story back home.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:13 PM   #1107
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Director Comey should have been fired last year. His own agency lost confidence in him. His actions violated his authority.

Drain the swamp!

Btw, have you forgotten all the calls for his resignation by the Democrats?

I guess this means that Trump has finally succumbed to Democratic pressure.
The firing of Comey is transparently in service of stopping his investigation of Trump's collusion with Russia. Trump must have received intelligence to the effect that Comey was going to bring him down or he would not have taken this desperate step. Do you really think Comey will go away quietly? The Trump administration merely hopes to discredit him before he shares what he has turned up in his investigation of Trump's​ campaign.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:18 PM   #1108
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Your argument fails because ancient Rome also had checks and balances in their power structure.

https://www.reference.com/history/ch...f9ac785247b74a

The Roman Republic had several items in place to keep any one part of the government from having all the power, including a group of men called tribunes who could veto select items and completely stop acts of administration, limited terms and specific requirements for members in order to move up in the government. Many governments in the modern world are based, at least in part, on the model of the Roman Republic, including the United States.
Are you kidding? The Roman Republic ended when the Roman Empire was established with the first emperor.

Please stop trying to educate us, it is painful.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:19 PM   #1109
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The firing of Comey is transparently in service of stopping his investigation of Trump's collusion with Russia. Trump must have received intelligence to the effect that Comey was going to bring him down or he would not have taken this desperate step. Do you really think Comey will go away quietly? The Trump administration merely hopes to discredit him before he shares what he has turned up in his investigation of Trump's​ campaign.
Really? I think what they hope to do is appoint the person in charge of the investigation, a person that would be beholden to him, perhaps compromised. Maybe Putin could make some suggestions.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:20 PM   #1110
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Yes because America bombed their poor country to pieces during the Korean War.

You need to read this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.79cb01fac346

like most Americans, educate yourself about your own country.

Although the ferocity of the bombing was criticized as racist and unjustified elsewhere in the world, it was never a big story back home.
We bombed their country protecting the democracy in South Korea from their invasion.

And you expect me to read and believe an article at WaPo?
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:23 PM   #1111
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Are you kidding? The Roman Republic ended when the Roman Empire was established with the first emperor.

Please stop trying to educate us, it is painful.
Too funny!!!!
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:31 PM   #1112
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We bombed their country protecting the democracy in South Korea from their invasion.

And you expect me to read and believe an article at WaPo?
You mean .."Carpet bombed and napalmed the civilian population of their country... That does not give you the right to take the high moral ground. And America really has no business being on China's doorstep in the pacific.
Imagine how better you would be if all that military money was spent on infrastructure, healthcare etc. You got that big nuclear fleet off the coast of NK costing so many million per day just to satisfy Trump's ego.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:42 PM   #1113
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You mean .."Carpet bombed and napalmed the civilian population of their country... That does not give you the right to take the high moral ground.
And what did your country do to protect innocent South Korean civilians from Mao and the Communists?
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:49 PM   #1114
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And what did your country do to protect innocent South Korean civilians from Mao and the Communists?
ahh you win. I can't say we did more than you did in carpet bombing and napalming the civilians. Anyhow Trump is doing the opposite of what he said he would do and not get so involved in wars.
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Old 05-09-2017, 11:16 PM   #1115
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Really? I think what they hope to do is appoint the person in charge of the investigation, a person that would be beholden to him, perhaps compromised. Maybe Putin could make some suggestions.
Trump can appoint the new FBI director, but he doesn't get to appoint the special prosecutor, bro. That's up to the Senate, and already several powerful Republican Senators the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard M. Burr of North Carolina, and John McCain are calling “for a special congressional committee to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.”

Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russia inquiry and now he calls for Pres. to fire Comey. Nothing suspicious about that, right?
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:56 AM   #1116
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Trump can appoint the new FBI director, but he doesn't get to appoint the special prosecutor, bro. That's up to the Senate, and already several powerful Republican Senators the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard M. Burr of North Carolina, and John McCain are calling “for a special congressional committee to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.”

Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russia inquiry and now he calls for Pres. to fire Comey. Nothing suspicious about that, right?
No, it was Asst. A. G. Rosenstein that called for Comey's removal.

Had Trump's selections been more quickly approved by the Senate, Comey would have been removed much earlier.

Democrats have far more to fear than the Republicans here, but, of course, you would never know that watching mainstream media.

Play that clip again of Schumer calling for Comey's removal!
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:28 AM   #1117
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You mean .."Carpet bombed and napalmed the civilian population of their country... That does not give you the right to take the high moral ground. And America really has no business being on China's doorstep in the pacific.
Imagine how better you would be if all that military money was spent on infrastructure, healthcare etc. You got that big nuclear fleet off the coast of NK costing so many million per day just to satisfy Trump's ego.
We don't have the right to be on China's doorstep? You mean Taiwan, Japan and S. Korea? I bet they love being called "China's doorstep" and I bet they really love being told by you they don't have the right to be allies with the US.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:32 AM   #1118
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Trump can appoint the new FBI director, but he doesn't get to appoint the special prosecutor, bro. That's up to the Senate, and already several powerful Republican Senators the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Richard M. Burr of North Carolina, and John McCain are calling “for a special congressional committee to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election.”

Jeff Sessions recused himself from the Russia inquiry and now he calls for Pres. to fire Comey. Nothing suspicious about that, right?
Even so, the special prosecutor will still report to the head of the FBI, bro.

As for Jeff Sessions he recused himself because of his contacts with Russia, perhaps he also would be investigated and even charged. So it is really interesting to know that the guy who might be investigated still has the authority to recommend that the man heading up the investigation be fired.

This is the most interesting presidency by far, wouldn't it be ironic if after all of these "you're fired!" episodes it concludes with the President being fired?
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:34 AM   #1119
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No, it was Asst. A. G. Rosenstein that called for Comey's removal.

Had Trump's selections been more quickly approved by the Senate, Comey would have been removed much earlier.

Democrats have far more to fear than the Republicans here, but, of course, you would never know that watching mainstream media.

Play that clip again of Schumer calling for Comey's removal!
Not according to this report:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-w...d-trump-2017-5

They report it was both Rosenstein and Sessions.

Surely you are not defending Trump firing someone who is the midst of investigating his administration? The only precedent for this is Nixon's firing Cox.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:38 AM   #1120
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ahh you win. I can't say we did more than you did in carpet bombing and napalming the civilians. Anyhow Trump is doing the opposite of what he said he would do and not get so involved in wars.
Perhaps you are right, the best way for Trump to get people to stop obsessing about his ties with Russia would be to start a nuclear war with N. Korea and China.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:49 AM   #1121
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"While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur with the judgment of the Department of Justice that you are not able to effectively lead the bureau." Trump

I love this quote, for those of you who thought Trump fired Comey because he was investigating Trump's connections to Russia this should clear that up

Also for those who think it is unethical to fire the person heading up an investigation of your campaign's possible collusion with Russia, once again that should clear this up

Nope, it is very clear from Trump's note that Comey was fired because he was not nice to Hillary Clinton.

On a more serious side this confession by Trump of ethics violations should kick off his impeachment hearings.

Has Pence commented yet?

I suppose Bill Clinton will comment on the irony of this quote. This stuff is really entertaining.
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Old 05-10-2017, 06:29 AM   #1122
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Not according to this report:

http://www.businessinsider.com/why-w...d-trump-2017-5

They report it was both Rosenstein and Sessions.

Surely you are not defending Trump firing someone who is the midst of investigating his administration? The only precedent for this is Nixon's firing Cox.
After months of this bogus investigation, they surely would have found some evidence to support the "crimes" he was charged with by former Obama operatives. With any legitimate investigation, the crimes are based on evidence. So many things here are backwards and upside down, yet mainstream media "credits" Trump for the inversions.

Regarding the Clinton's and the Obama Admin, however, we already know much of the evidence for crimes they have never been charged with.

Also, how do you think top secret info landed on the "lap top" of your former congressman, a known, yet unindicted, pervert, who also might have been your next mayor? That warrants an "OMG."

Has not Comey unofficially created a two-tiered justice system? One for rich and connected Democrats (and this list is incredibly long and growing,) and one for the rest of Americans, including Republicans like General Petraeus and Scooter Libby? This is why Comey was fired. He "politicized" the FBI, code words for "corrupted." Just another Obama appointed political hack.

Liberals stress out over potential Russian hacking influence in our Presidential elections, but what they should really worry about is the intelligence community of a sitting President influencing elections, "that is a bombshell" -- paraphrased from Senator Rand Paul this morning.

It's too bad that former acting director of the FBI, Mark Guiliano, retired last year. Unlike McCabe, he was "baggage free, a thoroughly competent and upright investigator. He also graduated with my brother from my high school in Cleveland.
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Old 05-10-2017, 06:54 AM   #1123
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After months of this bogus investigation, they surely would have found some evidence to support the "crimes" he was charged with by former Obama operatives.

Regarding the Clinton's and the Obama Admin, however, we already know much of the evidence for crimes they have never been charged with.

Also, how do you think top secret info landed on the "lap top" of your former congressman, a known, yet unindicted, pervert, who also might have been your next mayor? That warrants an "OMG."

Has not Comey unofficially created a two-tiered justice system? One for rich and connected Democrats (and this list is incredibly long and growing,) and one for the rest of Americans, including Republicans like General Petraeus and Scooter Libby? This is why Comey was fired. He "politicized" the FBI, code words for "corrupted." Just another Obama appointed political hack.
I have already said that the emails arriving on his laptop, whether sent manually or automatically, is not very different. Yet that was the cause for firing Comey? Because some were left with the impression she manually forwarded every email instead of having them sent automatically?

Like I said earlier, it simply require clarification and in my mind is not a basis to be fired.

No arguments about the Clinton's being crooked, so why the outrage from Trump over Comey implying they were crooked?

How is this a "bogus investigation" if Trump fired Flynn and Sessions had to recluse himself? After firing Comey it is very reasonable to ask if Yates and Comey were also fired due to the Russian investigation, hence there is no way I see this as bogus and I along with everyone else will demand a full investigation.

Yates position on Trump's wall has already been vindicated. If that was simply an excuse to fire her for her warning on Flynn and Comey's firing was also a pretense and the real reason was the Russia investigation then we don't just have smoke we have "fire".

Who brought this on himself? The same guy who confessed in writing to ethics violations. You realize that what he confessed to is exactly the same thing he accused Bill Clinton of doing with Hillary's investigation.

Do we really want such an idiot running the country?

Do we really want to wait and see what else the guy with the nuclear codes will fire to save his skin?
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:52 AM   #1124
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I have already said that the emails arriving on his laptop, whether sent manually or automatically, is not very different. Yet that was the cause for firing Comey? Because some were left with the impression she manually forwarded every email instead of having them sent automatically?

Like I said earlier, it simply require clarification and in my mind is not a basis to be fired.

No arguments about the Clinton's being crooked, so why the outrage from Trump over Comey implying they were crooked?

How is this a "bogus investigation" if Trump fired Flynn and Sessions had to recluse himself? After firing Comey it is very reasonable to ask if Yates and Comey were also fired due to the Russian investigation, hence there is no way I see this as bogus and I along with everyone else will demand a full investigation.

Yates position on Trump's wall has already been vindicated. If that was simply an excuse to fire her for her warning on Flynn and Comey's firing was also a pretense and the real reason was the Russia investigation then we don't just have smoke we have "fire".

Who brought this on himself? The same guy who confessed in writing to ethics violations. You realize that what he confessed to is exactly the same thing he accused Bill Clinton of doing with Hillary's investigation.

Do we really want such an idiot running the country?

Do we really want to wait and see what else the guy with the nuclear codes will fire to save his skin?
Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:27 AM   #1125
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Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.
No doubt Trump wanted to clean house of the uncooperative Comey who was investigating his ties to Putin before Trump hosted Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Russian Ambassador to the US Sergey Kislyak at the White House today. Trump couldn't risk the chance that the Ruskies would release any of the dirt they have on him because he had failed to thwart the FBI investigation. It's all good.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:36 AM   #1126
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Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.

Fair enough, the idiot we have now is better than some of the idiots we might otherwise have.
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:10 PM   #1127
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No doubt Trump wanted to clean house of the uncooperative Comey who was investigating his ties to Putin before Trump hosted Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Russian Ambassador to the US Sergey Kislyak at the White House today. Trump couldn't risk the chance that the Ruskies would release any of the dirt they have on him because he had failed to thwart the FBI investigation. It's all good.
There's a new movie out for you called "La La Land."
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Old 05-10-2017, 12:13 PM   #1128
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Fair enough, the idiot we have now is better than some of the idiots we might otherwise have.
I bin tryin to tell ya that all thems in poly ticks are kruks and lyers anda best we kin hope fer is a pate riot in the Big House.
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:11 PM   #1129
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I bin tryin to tell ya that all thems in poly ticks are kruks and lyers anda best we kin hope fer is a pate riot in the Big House.
The Big House? That's Leavenworth, right?
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Old 05-10-2017, 02:25 PM   #1130
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During the former Acting Attorney General’s testimony, we learned that she warned the White House that its former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn had lied about his Russia contacts and was vulnerable to blackmail.

We also learned that President Obama warned Trump directly against hiring Flynn.

But despite these warnings, Flynn was hired and was involved in key national security decisions, even 18 days after the White House was told about his Russian dealings.

These revelations are deeply troubling and are further proof that we need a full accounting of the Trump administration’s Russia ties.

The Senate does not have full-time Senate staff assigned to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. It’s time for an independent commission to uncover the truth.

Firing FBI Director Comey was a step in the Trump Administration's strategy to cover up this grave national security matter.

With Trump’s Russian connections back in the news this week and the FBI's integrity compromised, it's clear that we need an independent commission to investigate the Trump campaign and Administration.
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:14 PM   #1131
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The Big House? That's Leavenworth, right?
U. Michigan Wolverine stadium, the Buckeyes' arch enemy.
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:19 PM   #1132
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During the former Acting Attorney General’s testimony, we learned that she warned the White House that its former National Security Advisor Michael Flynn had lied about his Russia contacts and was vulnerable to blackmail.

We also learned that President Obama warned Trump directly against hiring Flynn.

But despite these warnings, Flynn was hired and was involved in key national security decisions, even 18 days after the White House was told about his Russian dealings.

These revelations are deeply troubling and are further proof that we need a full accounting of the Trump administration’s Russia ties.

The Senate does not have full-time Senate staff assigned to investigate Russia’s interference in the 2016 election. It’s time for an independent commission to uncover the truth.

Firing FBI Director Comey was a step in the Trump Administration's strategy to cover up this grave national security matter.

With Trump’s Russian connections back in the news this week and the FBI's integrity compromised, it's clear that we need an independent commission to investigate the Trump campaign and Administration.
We heard the same cries for years regarding Benghazi.

Flynn lied to Pence, so Trump canned him. That was months ago. And you still want to investigate that. Where were you when the Republicans cried for an independent investogation?
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Old 05-10-2017, 03:54 PM   #1133
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We don't have the right to be on China's doorstep? You mean Taiwan, Japan and S. Korea? I bet they love being called "China's doorstep" and I bet they really love being told by you they don't have the right to be allies with the US.
I'm talking about the 400 military bases that the US has been building up and mobilizing around them:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/233119...erpower-rival/

Surely you don't expect everyone to believe that provocative behavior is only something other countries do.

America wasn't invited to play a role in Syria by their democratically elected government, and still isn't I recall. Forget about checks and balances on the President, where are the checks and balances on America?

Your idea of checks and balances on a nuclear powered President is not realistic. I don't think they hire people who are hesitant about pressing the nuke button. The person who gets the order from trump to press the big red button, they are going to do it either because they are a trump supporter and think trump is always right, or because they are afraid they will lose their job if they don't.
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Old 05-10-2017, 04:25 PM   #1134
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I'm talking about the 400 military bases that the US has been building up and mobilizing around them:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/233119...erpower-rival/

Surely you don't expect everyone to believe that provocative behavior is only something other countries do.

America wasn't invited to play a role in Syria by their democratically elected government, and still isn't I recall. Forget about checks and balances on the President, where are the checks and balances on America?

Your idea of checks and balances on a nuclear powered President is not realistic. I don't think they hire people who are hesitant about pressing the nuke button. The person who gets the order from trump to press the big red button, they are going to do it either because they are a trump supporter and think trump is always right, or because they are afraid they will lose their job if they don't.
I lived in Taiwan for many years and it was very clear to me they very much wanted the alliance with the US. From my understanding the same is true of Japan and S. Korea.

The only time the US has used a nuclear weapon it was justified. Japan attacked us, we were defending ourselves and more American lives and Japanese lives would have been lost had we used conventional weapons than were lost from the bombs. Also, I blame the Japanese Emperor for the 2nd bomb.

About 80,000 were killed in the bomb that fell on Hiroshima.

Had we gone with operation downfall --

A study performed by physicist William Shockley for the staff of Secretary of War Henry Stimson estimated that the invasion of Japan would cost 1.7-4 million American casualties, including 400,000-800,000 fatalities, and five to ten million Japanese deaths.
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Old 05-10-2017, 05:15 PM   #1135
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America wasn't invited to play a role in Syria by their democratically elected government, and still isn't I recall. Forget about checks and balances on the President, where are the checks and balances on America?
The Christians and Kurds, who both have been slaughtered by both the Syrian gov't and ISIS, have long cried out for help and basic humanitarian assistance.

Since the rest of the world, including the UN, do next to nothing for indigent peoples suffering brutalities at the hands of their own gov'ts, THANK GOD the USA has stepped in to help these peoples. During the last century, nearly one quarter billion people have died at the hands of their own gov'ts. What has your country done for these ones? Nothing? I thought so.
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Old 05-10-2017, 06:40 PM   #1136
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The Christians and Kurds, who both have been slaughtered by both the Syrian gov't and ISIS, have long cried out for help and basic humanitarian assistance.

Since the rest of the world, including the UN, do next to nothing for indigent peoples suffering brutalities at the hands of their own gov'ts, THANK GOD the USA has stepped in to help these peoples. During the last century, nearly one quarter billion people have died at the hands of their own gov'ts. What has your country done for these ones? Nothing? I thought so.
The US got involved in Syria because of ISIS and the "war on terror". Nothing to do with alleviating the suffering of Christians or Kurds. The US has never been able to do so much about the Kurds because of its ally Turkey. The general consensus on intervention in foreign countries is that intervention makes things worse. It takes away the capacity of the people to solve the problems for themselves. It almost always fails, and deepens and prolongs the problems. I am not talking about supporting a country against clear aggression from a Hitler or a Mao, but the attempt to control the political process within any country as per Libya, Iraq, Syria by military means.
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Old 05-10-2017, 07:07 PM   #1137
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We heard the same cries for years regarding Benghazi.

Flynn lied to Pence, so Trump canned him. That was months ago. And you still want to investigate that. Where were you when the Republicans cried for an independent investogation?
There have been seven investigations of Benghazi, led mostly by Republicans in the Congress ... all ending in bupkis ...

I hope we spend as much money into investigating these Russian ties. Interference by any nation into our elections should never be allowed, and should be pursued by both parties ... even you shouldn't want it bro Ohio ... unless you don't care because your guy won.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:09 PM   #1138
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There have been seven investigations of Benghazi, led mostly by Republicans in the Congress ... all ending in bupkis ...

I hope we spend as much money into investigating these Russian ties. Interference by any nation into our elections should never be allowed, and should be pursued by both parties ... even you shouldn't want it bro Ohio ... unless you don't care because your guy won.
Ahem.

"the U.S. intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, while the Soviet Union or Russia intervened in 36"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...l_intervention
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:30 PM   #1139
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.79aaefd735ad

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/10/politi...t-trump-comey/

Comey's firing was born of trump's tantrum. On top of threatening to out his collusion with the Rooskies, Comey had hurt President Snowflake's feelings.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:54 AM   #1140
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.79aaefd735ad

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/10/politi...t-trump-comey/

Comey's firing was born of trump's tantrum. On top of threatening to out his collusion with the Rooskies, Comey had hurt President Snowflake's feelings.
First, I see the term "snowflake" as a personal insult. Yes, it is true that Trump does not post here (as far as we know) but even so I think you are setting a dangerous precedent.

Second, I highly doubt it was a tantrum. I think he had been sweating for the last five days what to do, ever since he heard the "good news" that Comey's investigation was beginning to get traction. I think he jumped at the news of Comey's "mistake" as a "viable" excuse to fire him, and not because of the investigation, because, as he said he had been told on three separate times that he was not a target of that investigation.

For example, I was in the lab with my students this last week and two of my students violated very strict rules about lab protocol. As a result both classes had to leave the lab room as it had become unsafe.

I wrote up the incidents and as a result they will both fail lab. There was no "tantrum" instead I was very happy. I knew both students were not ready to move onto Chemistry and now I had the documented event that completely justifies that decision.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:57 AM   #1141
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Ahem.

"the U.S. intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, while the Soviet Union or Russia intervened in 36"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...l_intervention
Are those countries happy about it? If not, do something, it is your country and your election.

I am not angry at Russia for intervening in our election, I am angry at Clinton whose use of a non secure server made it easier to hack, and I am angry at anyone who colluded with the Russians and want them caught, tried, and humiliated.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:50 AM   #1142
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There have been seven investigations of Benghazi, led mostly by Republicans in the Congress ... all ending in bupkis ...

I hope we spend as much money into investigating these Russian ties. Interference by any nation into our elections should never be allowed, and should be pursued by both parties ... even you shouldn't want it bro Ohio ... unless you don't care because your guy won.
What? ... my guy lost.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:02 AM   #1143
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Second, I highly doubt it was a tantrum. I think he had been sweating for the last five days what to do, ever since he heard the "good news" that Comey's investigation was beginning to get traction.
Rosenstein was overwhelmingly confirmed by the Senate on April 25. Give him a couple weeks to confer with past Directors, past AG's, and current top FBI staff, and he was quickly able to recommend with overwhelming support that Comey had to go.

Other than that, any time frame during the past 6 months or the next 6 months would be deemed suspicious and inappropriate.

Democrats have been calling for Comey's head since last summer. Give them what they want, and now they don't want it any more. Like a petulant child.

And here folks we have "Fake Tears Chucky" --
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:22 AM   #1144
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Rosenstein was overwhelmingly confirmed by the Senate on April 25. Give him a couple weeks to confer with past Directors, past AG's, and current top FBI staff, and he was quickly able to recommend with overwhelming support that Comey had to go.

Other than that, any time frame during the past 6 months or the next 6 months would be deemed suspicious and inappropriate.

Democrats have been calling for Comey's head since last summer. Give them what they want, and now they don't want it any more. Like a petulant child.

And here folks we have "Fake Tears Chucky" --
Regardless of how you spin it, no one can deny that it is unethical for Trump to fire Comey in the middle of investigating Trump's campaign. Even Trump understood that which is why he claimed he wasn't being investigated.

But that claim comes with two more issues:

1. It would be unethical for Comey to have these three alleged conversations with Trump, just as much as Bill Clinton meeting with the AG when she was investigating Hillary was unethical.

2. No one can deny that Comey was investigating Trump's campaign. Claiming that Trump was not being investigated was disingenuous. Since the investigation was not complete how could you possibly know whether or not Trump was part of it?

To now see these republicans paraded out defending this because six months ago Democrats wanted Comey fired is the height of hypocrisy. Think about it, the President was a democrat. Why didn't he fire Comey? Because it would be unethical to do so while Hillary Clinton was being investigated.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:28 AM   #1145
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Rosenstein was overwhelmingly confirmed by the Senate on April 25. Give him a couple weeks to confer with past Directors, past AG's, and current top FBI staff, and he was quickly able to recommend with overwhelming support that Comey had to go.
Except NOT. Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein threatened to resign after his recommendation was cited as the reason that Trump fired Comey.

Long story short, Trump threw a tantrum over the Russian ties investigation and pushed Rosenstein to write the memo, so it didn't look like it came from Trump.

These are clear indicators of guilt ... that smell like Nixon all over again.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:32 AM   #1146
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Except NOT. Deputy Attorney General Rosenstein threatened to resign after his recommendation was cited as the reason that Trump fired Comey.
Are you serious?! Remember the good old days of Constantine the great when you could get your lackeys to take the fall?

You realize what this means. Sessions and Trump realized the ethical dilemma in firing him and had to give credit to Rosenstein. Which was a lie.

Here is how they are now describing the events. Trump calls a mtg, says he wants to fire Comey, asks AG and Asst AG to put their thoughts into writing. Then pretends it was the Asst AGs comments that were the final piece which prompted him to action.

Looks more and more like Nixon firing Cox.

Well, you need a good impeachment every 30 years or so.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:05 AM   #1147
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Are you serious?!

Well, you need a good impeachment every 30 years or so.
The liberals began their impeachment proceedings on November 8.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:09 AM   #1148
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What? ... my guy lost.
Oh ... I should have thought : Ohio = Kasich. I like him too. Much better than Trump. He would play by the rules and Trump has none.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:18 AM   #1149
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The liberals began their impeachment proceedings on November 8.
And the republicans are fine with the crook ... and all the other crooks too.
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Old 05-11-2017, 09:43 AM   #1150
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Trump is exactly the kind of leader we need running the country.

You say Clinton's were crooked, but where is the outrage over her walking free?

Where is the outrage over Obama operatives surveilling political opponents?

Where is the outrage over Comey's actions last year, totally inappropriate for a sitting Director?

Where is the outrage over Lynch meeting with Bill Clinton in the airport?

Where is the outrage over failed FBI investigations into a host of Obama other scandals like Benghazi, IRS, etc.?

Did you really like an idiot like Obama running the country? Giving billions to our enemies so that they could have their own nuclear codes?

I prefer a patriotic "idiot" to a Benedict Arnold in the White House.
I had to revisit this. Cuz I have to announced that we're extremely lucky to have someone on AltVs with Top security clearance.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:46 AM   #1151
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Oh ... I should have thought : Ohio = Kasich. I like him too. Much better than Trump. He would play by the rules and Trump has none.
I would have voted for him as well.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:08 AM   #1152
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We heard the same cries for years regarding Benghazi.
Recently learned that Benghazi was not so simple. The State Department actually had little say in how that place was guarded. It was a front for the CIA operation down the street. State was given the task of having a show of presence so that U.S. personnel could be at the annex down the street. No amount of clamoring by State was going to change the level of defense for the people there.

Not defending HC. She still has plenty to be called to account for.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:31 AM   #1153
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And the republicans are fine with the crook ... and all the other crooks too.
And the Democrats are fine with liars, crooks, and traitors too.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:33 AM   #1154
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I had to revisit this. Cuz I have to announced that we're extremely lucky to have someone on AltVs with Top security clearance.
Would that be your friend Anthony Weiner?
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:40 PM   #1155
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And the Democrats are fine with liars, crooks, and traitors too.
And that is what you reap when you don't deal with sin, you no longer have a standing or a ground to deal with anyone else's sin.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:50 PM   #1156
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And that is what you reap when you don't deal with sin, you no longer have a standing or a ground to deal with anyone else's sin.
Are you impugning Kenneth Starr, who impeached Clinton?

His credentials were irreproachable.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:57 PM   #1157
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Are you serious?! Remember the good old days of Constantine the great when you could get your lackeys to take the fall?

You realize what this means. Sessions and Trump realized the ethical dilemma in firing him and had to give credit to Rosenstein. Which was a lie.

Here is how they are now describing the events. Trump calls a mtg, says he wants to fire Comey, asks AG and Asst AG to put their thoughts into writing. Then pretends it was the Asst AGs comments that were the final piece which prompted him to action.

Looks more and more like Nixon firing Cox.

Well, you need a good impeachment every 30 years or so.
And it gets even worse. Under oath high ranking FBI officials say that Trump's claim that Comey had lost the confidence of the FBI is false.

Trump's claim that the Asst AG prompted the firing of Comey is false.

Soon we'll find out if Trump's claim that Comey told him he wasn't the focus of an investigation is false.

If the Asst AG did not push for comedy to be fired then it is clearly and undeniably a conflict of interest on Trump's part.

That would make his explanation for firing Comey to include 3 lies and unethical behavior.
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Old 05-11-2017, 01:58 PM   #1158
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Are you impugning Kenneth Starr, who impeached Clinton?

His credentials were irreproachable.
It is hard to figure out who is not being impugned at this point, going all the way back to the box 13 scandal. With an approval rank of 35% Trump would surely be given a vote of no confidence if this were a Parliamentary system.

Regardless of whether or not he is impeached he clearly has no political clout. Look at the outrage these politicians face in their town halls. They (Republicans) are going to be terrified of having anything to do with Trump. They are on a sinking ship and he is the anchor, they will cut the rope. If you think the first 100 days were ugly you haven't seen anything yet. You can't blame Democrats, the Republicans control both the Senate and the House. Apparently "getting tired of winning" happened much faster than any of us could have imagined.

But that is secondary, this is a matter of national security and that is what is truly scary. If Trump was innocent he would have given Comey everything he needed to put this to bed quickly, instead he has acted to obstruct an investigation.
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Old 05-11-2017, 03:27 PM   #1159
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"While I greatly appreciate you informing me, on three separate occasions, that I am not under investigation, I nevertheless concur with the judgment of the Department of Justice that you are not able to effectively lead the bureau." Trump

I love this quote, for those of you who thought Trump fired Comey because he was investigating Trump's connections to Russia this should clear that up

Also for those who think it is unethical to fire the person heading up an investigation of your campaign's possible collusion with Russia, once again that should clear this up

Nope, it is very clear from Trump's note that Comey was fired because he was not nice to Hillary Clinton.

On a more serious side this confession by Trump of ethics violations should kick off his impeachment hearings.

Has Pence commented yet?

I suppose Bill Clinton will comment on the irony of this quote. This stuff is really entertaining.
Politics
Sean Spicer Had a Meltdown After Trump Fired Comey, Hiding in Bushes and Demanding Darkness
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Old 05-11-2017, 04:26 PM   #1160
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Politics
Sean Spicer Had a Meltdown After Trump Fired Comey, Hiding in Bushes and Demanding Darkness
And now after Rosenstein almost quit over getting the blame Trump changes his story, that, he was gonna fire Comey without the AG and deputy AG recommendations, because, Comey was showboating and grandstanding. Boy if that's not a projection I don't know what is.

And what about Sessions recusing himself and still interfering with the Russian ties investigation. It all smacks of guilt, again.

I'd ask why Trump doesn't know about Nixon, but he's so stupid that he thinks he just invented "prime the pump." Bahahahaha
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:02 PM   #1161
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No, it was Asst. A. G. Rosenstein that called for Comey's removal.
No, that was what we were told yesterday, but today according to Trump and Rosenstein both, it was definitely Trump that called for Comey's removal.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:13 PM   #1162
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And the republicans are fine with the crook ... and all the other crooks too.
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Originally Posted by Ohio
And the Democrats are fine with liars, crooks, and traitors too.
And now you know why I'm a mugwump, and registered as an independent.
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Old 05-12-2017, 05:15 AM   #1163
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Apparently Comey was axed by Trump because he refused to make a loyalty pledge.

I am vaguely familiar with this practice of loyalty pledges, where have we heard that one before?
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Old 05-12-2017, 08:13 AM   #1164
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No, that was what we were told yesterday, but today according to Trump and Rosenstein both, it was definitely Trump that called for Comey's removal.
Ohio bought Trump's story.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:12 AM   #1165
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Ohio bought Trump's story.
We have had experience with WL and his "loyalty pledge" and saw the results of that. We need to respond to this threat. James says 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Comey did the right thing in refusing to swear a loyalty pledge to Trump. The assistant head of the FBI did the right thing in his testimony yesterday. We cannot sit idly by as a political hack is put in charge of the FBI who swears allegiance to Trump, while Trump is bringing Russians into the oval office with their tape measurers, cameras, and every other "gift" they might have for Trump.
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Old 05-12-2017, 09:52 AM   #1166
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This is what happens if you mess with the swamp.

"All the swamp creatures begin snapping and writhing and yowling like angry cats in the dark. For the better part of a year now, the only thing everyone in Washington could agree upon was that now-ex FBI Director Jim Comey was an overreaching, underperforming dolt. He fancied himself to be attorney general after he had lost all confidence in Loretta Lynch, the actual attorney general. That was after Ms. Lynch had met privately on a jet with former President Bill Clinton on a tarmac in Phoenix. This was at a time when Mr. Clinton’s wife was running for president while under investigation by the attorney general and the FBI for criminal misuse of classified emails.

Wearing his Big Boy AG shoes last summer, Mr. Comey delivered the most damning non-indictment of Mrs. Clinton in the history of criminal justice. After listing a long rap sheet of inexcusable, reckless and conspiratorial handling of state secrets over a purposely concealed home email server — designed specifically to shield Mrs. Clinton from public scrutiny — Mr. Comey jarringly announced that he was recommending that no charges would be forthcoming. “Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case,” he said, concluding his withering damnation of Mrs. Clinton last July.

But, lest any mere mortals think they might get away with doing the same thing Mrs. Clinton had done, Mr. Comey was blunt. “To be clear, this is not to suggest that in similar circumstances, a person who engaged in this activity would face no consequences,” he warned. “To the contrary, those individuals are often subject to security or administrative sanctions.” “But” he added, “that is not what we are deciding now.” In other words, if you are a former first lady who is about to be the next president and whose husband is a former president who just met privately on a plane on a tarmac, then you won’t be charged. But if you are a mere citizen or public employee with no such influence, you’re gambling with your life and your career.

Ahhh, life in the swamp.

Despite all of this baggage, Democrats nominated Mrs. Clinton anyway. But Mr. Comey was not finished with her yet. Like a swamp cat playing with a swamp rat, he toyed with her again and again up until the last weeks and days of the campaign. Mr. Comey was for her before he was against her. Then he was for her again. Life in the swamp can be disorienting — especially if you are the rat being toyed with. “If the election had been on Oct. 27, I would be your president,” Mrs. Clinton said recently, referring to one of Mr. Comey’s final interferences in the campaign. The election, of course, was held a week later. And she lost.

Donald Trump was hired instead to drain the swamp Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Comey had inhabited for far too long.

Now, of course, Mr. Comey has been sacked and the Democrats are losing their minds. None of them seems to think Mr. Comey should not have been fired. They just think he should have been fired sooner. Truth is, they really just think he should have been fired by President Hillary Clinton. Which raises another interesting question. If the Democrats’ only complaint right now is that Mr. Trump did not fire Mr. Comey sooner, then shouldn’t they be mad at former President Barack Obama for not firing Mr. Comey after the election?

Or, even better, before the election?" -- Charles Hurt, Washington Times
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:04 AM   #1167
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We have had experience with WL and his "loyalty pledge" and saw the results of that. We need to respond to this threat. James says 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

Comey did the right thing in refusing to swear a loyalty pledge to Trump. The assistant head of the FBI did the right thing in his testimony yesterday. We cannot sit idly by as a political hack is put in charge of the FBI who swears allegiance to Trump, while Trump is bringing Russians into the oval office with their tape measurers, cameras, and every other "gift" they might have for Trump.
All of a sudden you decided to put on some guts and grow a spine?

Did not Janet Reno swear in with a loyalty pledge to William Jefferson Clinton?

Did not Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch swear in with loyalty pledges to Barack Hussein Obama?

But it's OK it the Democrats do it cause the media is on their side and we'll never hear about it.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:08 AM   #1168
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And now you know why I'm a mugwump, and registered as an independent.
Sound more like a MINO, mugwump in name only.

An independent ... kind of like ole Bernie Sanders?
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:14 AM   #1169
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All of a sudden you decided to put on some guts and grow a spine?

Did not Janet Reno swear in with a loyalty pledge to William Jefferson Clinton?

Did not Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch swear in with loyalty pledges to Barack Hussein Obama?

But it's OK it the Democrats do it cause the media is on their side and we'll never hear about it.
I do not agree with Bill Clinton meeting with Janet Reno, I think they should be investigated and prosecuted if found guilty. Therefore it is consistent to hold Trump to the same standard. Trump condemned Clinton seeing Reno privately and yet confessed to the exact same conflict of interest.

I don't disagree that Trump ran on the pledge to drain the swamp, but with all the billionaires in place and the exact same crooked practices only more blatant and more in your face, this is not what I understood "drain the swamp" to mean.

I believe the evidence is clear and convincing that Russia hacked the DNC emails with the intention of damaging Hillary Clinton's campaign. It is also clear that Flynn had unethical ties to Russia and that Sessions is also too close to Russia to be a fair judge in the matter. Also Mannafort was far too close to Russia for 10 years to be a campaign manager for a US presidential election. Carter Paige and Roger Stone are just two more examples of a disturbing connection. Of course Jared Kushner's ties have to be investigated as well. Why did Trump gut the Republican party plank on Russia's invasion of the Ukraine?

That to me is enough to justify a demand to see Trump's tax returns and have a full and complete investigation. This is not politics, it is national security.

To make things worse Trump fired the acting AG and replaced her with Sessions who has ties to Russia. His appointment to National Security Advisor was compromised due to his ties to Russia. Finally, he fired the head of the FBI who was overseeing the investigation of collusion between Trump's administration and Russia.

And how exactly did this take place? Flynn was never vetted because they trusted Obama's vetting, only problem is Obama fired Flynn and warned Trump about him. So that is a completely bogus explanation for why you don't vet your NSA?!

Sally Yates was fired ostensibly because she felt his anti immigration policy was unconstitutional. It has since been judged to be unconstitutional. If Trump is to be believed she was fired for doing her job and being truthful to him. But it is also reasonable to think the real reason to fire her was to put his man in charge of the investigation into Russia's hacking and collusion.

Likewise the stories we heard about Comey's being fired were lies. Lots, and lots of lies. He was not fired because he was not nice to Hillary Clinton as was first alleged. He was not fired because of the Assistant AG's recommendation. The second version of what took place. He was fired because he did not do a loyalty pledge to Trump. The chairman of the House intelligence committee investigation (Devin Nunez) has had to step away due to his coordination with the Trump administration.

In 2014 Reuters reported Eric Trump saying that they had access to $100million in funding from Russia. Yet yesterday Trump tells us he doesn't have any assets in Russia. This is why we need to see the tax returns.

In 2008 Eric said that they were seeing a disproportionate amount of funding coming in from Russia.

But yesterday Donald Trump tweets "I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA - NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!"

Something does not smell right to me.
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Old 05-12-2017, 10:44 AM   #1170
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All of a sudden you decided to put on some guts and grow a spine?

Did not Janet Reno swear in with a loyalty pledge to William Jefferson Clinton?

Did not Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch swear in with loyalty pledges to Barack Hussein Obama?

But it's OK it the Democrats do it cause the media is on their side and we'll never hear about it.
In what parallel universe were Reno, Holder, and Lynch FBI directors?
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Old 05-12-2017, 11:35 AM   #1171
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Sound more like a MINO, mugwump in name only.

An independent ... kind of like ole Bernie Sanders?
So no matter how much I try to not be part of both parties to you I still have be a dreaded liberal? Why bro Ohio? Why do you need liberals to hate? What's going on with that? You seem to even have to invent them in your head. What's going on with that?
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Old 05-12-2017, 02:10 PM   #1172
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So no matter how much I try to not be part of both parties to you I still have be a dreaded liberal? Why bro Ohio? Why do you need liberals to hate? What's going on with that? You seem to even have to invent them in your head. What's going on with that?
Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian. Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious. Take my friends and family -- they know that I don't incite "violence" over political views -- like so many of them do to each other. Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along. You and zeek are at times like LC leaders -- you make enemies where there were none. I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone. You, however, do it for laughs. ZNP, however, genuinely expresses his thought out views, which I may agree with or not, but I definitely learn from him, and am challenged in a healthy way.
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Old 05-13-2017, 12:45 PM   #1173
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Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian. Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?

I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious. Take my friends and family -- they know that I don't incite "violence" over political views -- like so many of them do to each other. Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.

But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along. You and zeek are at times like LC leaders -- you make enemies where there were none. I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone. You, however, do it for laughs. ZNP, however, genuinely expresses his thought out views, which I may agree with or not, but I definitely learn from him, and am challenged in a healthy way.
You nasty liberal lover!
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Old 05-13-2017, 11:24 PM   #1174
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Thanks for the honest and straight up reply.

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Your questions are really strange to me because for a long time I felt how did these ex-members of the LC do such a radical 180 shift? They now seem to have everything of the Bible and have nothing good to say about any Christian.
Why is that strange? In the church we were taught Christianity was Christless, and many worse things. Did you fail to get that memo?

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Sorry bro, but I only ever hear the negative, and kind of reached my limit. And then you ask me why I hate liberals, while I have been asking for years why do you seem to hate Christians and conservatives?
I pick on Christians so much because I feel that first I was bamboozled by my cradle religion (SBC) and then by the local church. Apparently you don't feel bamboozled by either your cradle religion or the local church. Why you left the local church and are on a forum of disgruntled exmembers is beyond me ... 'cept you prolly got tired of being abused by them. We must be better abusers. haha (laughter). If not we should try harder.

And while I'm not near as partisan as you seem to be (you seem to be more like Ann Coulter and her book "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America"), I pick on conservatives because, the tack that sticks up gets the hammer. And why pick on the liberals? They are their own worst enemy. Look what they did? They pushed Bernie out in favor of the Hildabeast. There's no need to point out such stupidity. It speaks for itself. They put Trump in charge. You should thank them.

But aren't there both good and bad in both parties?

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I don't hate liberals, least of all you bro, in fact I rarely get into debates with them about politics. It's just too contentious.
Take my friends and family . . .
My sister, a Yellowdog Democrat, is that way with our family. She won't talk politics with them. I gets too heated. I'm a mugwump, I don't like either party, and so don't have that problem. I'm with them when they are critical of democrats. And I pick on my sister so much she don't want me to talk politics. For eight years I really enjoyed bringing up Obama's flaws. My sister hated it.

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Also I cringe when I hear political views expressed in church settings.
Oh, my. my ... so you don't support Trump's EO on preachers preaching politics? But I think Trump did atheists a big favor. And they are so stupid they need all the help they can get. They don't even realize that the best thing that could happen to their movement is for the wall of separation between church and state to be taken down. Just look at Europe, for example.

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But this sub-forum is different. Because I heard so much blowback over the years on this forum against God, the Bible, and all things Christian and/or conservative, I decided to respond, just in case some fair minded reader came along.
What constitutes a fair minded person to you?

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You and zeek are at times like LC leaders
Thanks.

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I think zeek does it just to be nasty because he patronizes everyone.
The both of you can be pretty nasty toward each other. Stop it.

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Originally Posted by Ohio
You, however, do it for laughs.
And there's plenty to laugh at, in religion and politics. Except in this last election. Both parties -- the Hildabeast and Drumpf -- are no laughing matter. Our comedians, however, sure are having a heyday ... way more than the days of Dubya. I didn't like him back then, but he sure looks pretty good about now.
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Old 05-14-2017, 06:44 AM   #1175
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What constitutes a fair minded person to you?
Well let's give a few examples:

If you describe Trump as "childish" that is not fair minded, I would prefer "impulsive".

If you claim that Trump's reference to Clapper was a lie that is not fair minded, I would prefer disingenuous.

If you are calling for Trump's impeachment I think that is premature, at this point I would prefer the claim that "there is room for improvement".

If you are rolling your eyes when they tell you there was no concerted effort to pin the Comey firing on the Asst AG that is not fair, I think we should take the administration at its word that they were incompetent.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:24 AM   #1176
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Thanks for the honest and straight up reply.

Why is that strange? In the church we were taught Christianity was Christless, and many worse things. Did you fail to get that memo?

I pick on Christians so much because I feel that first I was bamboozled by my cradle religion (SBC) and then by the local church. Apparently you don't feel bamboozled by either your cradle religion or the local church. Why you left the local church and are on a forum of disgruntled exmembers is beyond me ... 'cept you prolly got tired of being abused by them. We must be better abusers. haha (laughter). If not we should try harder.

What constitutes a fair minded person to you?
A fair-minded person, in our context here, can differentiate between a few bad examples and the whole. What you do is what generally defines bigotry -- project the failures of a few upon the whole.

No fair-minded person would castigate every LC-er solely for what Mel Porter did to you back in the chaotic 80's. This is why I constantly differentiate between the actions of leaders at LSM and the typical LC members. Your "unbalanced" views leave no room for differentiation, and consequently you seem unable to find anything good from your time in the SBC or TLR. That is not healthy bro!

Then you set out to "prove" your thesis on a regular basis. For example, Ohio is an evangelist who does not condemn Trump for his policies, and yet Trump is a "known" misogynist, xenophobic, racist, abusive, and immoral billionaire, therefore all evangelicals are also misogynist, xenophobic, racist, abusive, and immoral. That is the message I hear on this thread.

Don't you think that is just a little too extreme?

Also, W. Lee did teach that "all Christianity was Christless" in the 1976 summer Revelations training. Forty years ago I accepted that and it had a negative impact on me. But I also heard in parochial school that Lutherans can't go to heaven. So what?!? Do we still cling to those archaic generalizations? Are we taking that nonsense to our graves? To be honest, my wife and I are slowly becoming friends with our Catholic and Protestant neighbors because we have dropped that old junk we heard in our youth.
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Old 05-14-2017, 08:28 AM   #1177
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And now you know why I'm a mugwump, and registered as an independent.
You could take some lessons from Greg Gutfeld. He is a mugwump but is also independent, and conservative libertarian. And occasionally funny, like you.
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Old 05-14-2017, 09:45 AM   #1178
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But yesterday Donald Trump tweets "I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH RUSSIA - NO DEALS, NO LOANS, NO NOTHING!"

Something does not smell right to me.
I have a lot of respect for Senator Rand Paul, not that I agree with all of his policies, but the guy is honorable and trustworthy. Here is what he said recently:

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) earlier this week revealed that another senator had told him that he was surveilled by the Obama administration. “I know one other senator [Rubio?, Cruz?, Graham?] who’s already confided to me that he was surveilled by the Obama administration, including his phone calls,” he told Fox News on Wednesday. “So when this all comes out, if there are political figures from the opposition party, it’s a story bigger than any of the allegations with regard to Russian collusion,” he said.

Earlier this month, Paul announced that sources have told him that he has been surveilled by the Obama administration, and that he has requested information from the White House and the congressional intelligence committees on whether he has ever been surveilled, unmasked, or searched for in intelligence reports. “It’s about your own government spying on the opposition party, that would be enormous if true,” he said. “I don’t know the truth. We’ve asked the intel committees, House and Senate, and I’ve also asked the White House, because there is this whole discussion of Susan Rice unmasking people,” he said.

Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper revealed that last year, 1,934 Americans’ names were unmasked. Last month it was reported that Susan Rice had unmasked Trump campaign officials — which she has not denied, but only claimed that it was not illegal.

There was no reason for her to unmask people. Hers was not a position of investigation. Hers was a political position. And for her to get involved with unmasking Trump officials is alarming. If it happened to other people, it’s even more alarming,” he said. “But we’re going to try to get to the bottom of this. And it’s a very secret world. You have to realize that it’s a world so secret most members of Congress are never allowed.”


For me this is the far bigger story than some Russian collusion with the Trump administration, which explains why they apparently have found no evidence for election tampering after all these months. And until they do, I have to believe, based on the history of Obama operatives, that RussiaGate is nothing more than smokescreen. The real investigations ought to be centered on Hillary and Susan Rice.
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:18 AM   #1179
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Well let's give a few examples:

If you describe Trump as "childish" that is not fair minded, I would prefer "impulsive".

If you claim that Trump's reference to Clapper was a lie that is not fair minded, I would prefer disingenuous.

If you are calling for Trump's impeachment I think that is premature, at this point I would prefer the claim that "there is room for improvement".

If you are rolling your eyes when they tell you there was no concerted effort to pin the Comey firing on the Asst AG that is not fair, I think we should take the administration at its word that they were incompetent.
Philip Mudd, a former counterterrorism official at the FBI and CIA scoffed: “You can’t take this seriously. You feel like you’ve got to give the president of the United States a pacifier and a rattle and put him in the crib.”
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Old 05-14-2017, 10:27 AM   #1180
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You could take some lessons from Greg Gutfeld. He is a mugwump but is also independent, and conservative libertarian. And occasionally funny, like you.
Now you know why I'm offended when you call me a liberal. I don't identify as liberal or conservative. I'm both. Example : I'm very liberal with your daughters and very conservative with mine. haha
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:06 AM   #1181
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Now you know why I'm offended when you call me a liberal. I don't identify as liberal or conservative. I'm both. Example : I'm very liberal with your daughters and very conservative with mine. haha
Then the only real difference we have is semantics!

That explains everything.
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Old 05-14-2017, 11:08 AM   #1182
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And while I'm not near as partisan as you seem to be (you seem to be more like Ann Coulter and her book "Demonic: How the Liberal Mob Is Endangering America"), I pick on conservatives because, the tack that sticks up gets the hammer. And why pick on the liberals? They are their own worst enemy. Look what they did? They pushed Bernie out in favor of the Hildabeast. There's no need to point out such stupidity. It speaks for itself. They put Trump in charge. You should thank them.

But aren't there both good and bad in both parties?
"Good" people could never support the wholesale slaughter of the totally innocent and defenseless unborn.

That is what turned me off to liberals in the Democratic Party in 1973.
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Old 05-14-2017, 12:16 PM   #1183
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"Good" people could never support the wholesale slaughter of the totally innocent and defenseless unborn.

That is what turned me off to liberals in the Democratic Party in 1973.
So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:23 PM   #1184
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I have a lot of respect for Senator Rand Paul, not that I agree with all of his policies, but the guy is honorable and trustworthy. Here is what he said recently:

Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) earlier this week revealed that another senator had told him that he was surveilled by the Obama administration. “I know one other senator [Rubio?, Cruz?, Graham?] who’s already confided to me that he was surveilled by the Obama administration, including his phone calls,” he told Fox News on Wednesday. “So when this all comes out, if there are political figures from the opposition party, it’s a story bigger than any of the allegations with regard to Russian collusion,” he said.

Earlier this month, Paul announced that sources have told him that he has been surveilled by the Obama administration, and that he has requested information from the White House and the congressional intelligence committees on whether he has ever been surveilled, unmasked, or searched for in intelligence reports. “It’s about your own government spying on the opposition party, that would be enormous if true,” he said. “I don’t know the truth. We’ve asked the intel committees, House and Senate, and I’ve also asked the White House, because there is this whole discussion of Susan Rice unmasking people,” he said.

Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper revealed that last year, 1,934 Americans’ names were unmasked. Last month it was reported that Susan Rice had unmasked Trump campaign officials — which she has not denied, but only claimed that it was not illegal.

There was no reason for her to unmask people. Hers was not a position of investigation. Hers was a political position. And for her to get involved with unmasking Trump officials is alarming. If it happened to other people, it’s even more alarming,” he said. “But we’re going to try to get to the bottom of this. And it’s a very secret world. You have to realize that it’s a world so secret most members of Congress are never allowed.”


For me this is the far bigger story than some Russian collusion with the Trump administration, which explains why they apparently have found no evidence for election tampering after all these months. And until they do, I have to believe, based on the history of Obama operatives, that RussiaGate is nothing more than smokescreen. The real investigations ought to be centered on Hillary and Susan Rice.
I agree that this would be a very big story, but since the Republicans control the Senate, House and Whitehouse you would think it would be easy to investigate this and get to the bottom of it. Therefore, are they doing that? If so, why make allegations until you have the facts? That comes across as throwing mud to create a distraction.

Yes, everyone agrees that the allegation, if true, is very serious. The problem is the people making this allegation are in power. Why are they acting impotent like they cannot get the truth?
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:36 PM   #1185
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Philip Mudd, a former counterterrorism official at the FBI and CIA scoffed: “You can’t take this seriously. You feel like you’ve got to give the president of the United States a pacifier and a rattle and put him in the crib.”
He is frustrated but that is the wrong attitude. James said to "count it all joy" -- that is the right attitude. Understand that Trump and his administration will perfect your patience, and you can't be a mature Christian if you are not patient. Think of the irony of calling him a baby if your not fully mature. Very often you see these guys who are questioning the Trump communication team drop their jaw when they see something that appears as a blatant lie (like saying they weren't trying to pin the Comey firing on the assistant AG). But James says that if you need wisdom to deal with the trial, then ask.

So I think this is a good example of the error I am talking about which is not helpful. Be patient. Trump has only been president for about 100 days and we already may have evidence of obstruction of justice (a valid basis for impeachment), the pressure for the tax returns has intensified while Trump appears to be more and more desperate. If those tax returns turn up a very close tie to Russian financing it would reveal that Trump is a liar based on his Tweet disavowing any connection at all. That would also be a very strong basis for impeachment. Because of all this a good 65% of Americans do not trust Trump, are concerned about his ties to Russia and tax returns, so this provides a political mandate. Finally, in June there is a key election in Georgia. If the democrat wins you will see a defection from Trump by those in the Republican party that are concerned about the midterm elections.
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Old 05-14-2017, 04:45 PM   #1186
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So to you it all hangs on abortion? But I know liberals that agree with you. My yellowdog sister for example. She disagrees with abortion.

But she's a woman, and believes that women have sovereignty over their own bodies, and men nor the government should make such an important decision as to whether to abort or not.

In short, if men disagree with abortion let them keep it in their pants, or use some kind of birth control. It does take men to create the problem. And then, when it's done, it's men that think they should control the woman/women.

Good luck with that. Maybe you can, but, I've never been able to control women.
Why is this?

If the US is a democracy then majority rules should still have an impact on policy, not 9 Supreme court justices.

I have thought about this issue for years and have determined that the solution is quite simple, the US constitution does not say anything about it, therefore it should be left up to the States. If the Supreme court were honest they would say that they did not have jurisdiction. As a result some states would legalize and some would make it illegal and others would have a variety of restrictions. Then it would be very easy to measure how a State's policy impacts the health and welfare of the people. Then, 44 years later, you would have a very clear evidence as to how each policy will impact your people and State. Instead because of Blackmun's ruling we have a festering, puss wound that is dividing this country 44 years later.

But that isn't what happened. Instead Blackmun's ruling is to put your hands over your eyes and see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.

That policy has been a total and complete failure. We don't want, need or authorize the Supreme court to make laws and ignore the US constitution.
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Old 05-14-2017, 05:36 PM   #1187
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