The Asian Mind/The Western Mind - Page 2

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 05:51 AM

Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC.

In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is.

And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours.

Drake · 07-02-2018, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

We'd like to know, if the shape of the local churches must be exactly identical, what shape they should be: triangular? If so, isosceles or equilateral? Or, perhaps cylindrical? Or maybe a nice neat cube? Lee just said "shape" and went on, but if we all should be exactly identical in shape then probably we need a little more information.....

....The local churches are to be exactly identical, but in what way? In shape? How are we supposed to implement that? ....

...he was an angry Chinese man defending his business interests....

In the footnote to Revelation 1:20 I see a Chinese fox-tail. How are local churches supposed to be exactly identical in "shape"?

.... and pointed to stuff like this as my reasoning. I also mentioned other things as well but got challenged on a footnote so here we are.

Aron,

We’ve already covered nature, shape, and purpose and if you don’t like Brother Lees definition in the footnote from Revelation 1:20, or mine in this thread.. then I suggest you digest Trapped’s definitions concerning the heavenly and earthly realm in post #147. I agree with those aspects of his post. I also demonstrated by way of comparison the nature, shape, and purpose of angels, a topic you introduced.

What I observe in your posts is an oft repeated anti-Chinese theme. It’s almost like you ended up on the losing side when everybody was Kung Fu fighting.

Frankly, I don’t know why you are so obsessive but this much I do know. We are here for one simple reason, that you misappropriated a phrase out of a footnote, which you hadn’t read, and spun it to mean something entirely different from its context or original definition. That is sophistry and is unbecoming of a Christian brother, which you are. Yet, one cannot stop you from falsehood, hate mongering, obsessing over Asian/Chinese culture, fabricating allegations out of your imagination etc....but I will it point out when I see you do it. That is just one aspect of my personalized care for you.

Here is another aspect of my care for you: Now that your “Chinese culture narrative” that you attempted to derive from the footnote in Revelation 1:20 has been thoroughly disproven and shown to be false.... out of the thousands and thousands of messages spoken and documented by Witness Lee there must be at least one statement that substantiates your assertion. No need to imagine such things, no need to rely on others who heard someone who overheard someone else, you don’t even need to depend on what some elder or coworker said...rather let’s hear it straight from the man himself, for such an important task as casting Chinese culture into divine matters must be accomplished with some degree of certitude. What did a Witness Lee say about culture and Chinese culture specifically?

Drake

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA.

Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC.

In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is.

And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours.

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But I want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

We’ve already covered nature, shape, and purpose and if you don’t like Brother Lees definition in the footnote from Revelation 1:20.

What I observe in your posts is an oft repeated anti-Chinese theme.

Actually we have not "covered" all of the implications of Lee's teachings on Rev. 1:20. And once again, when pressured with the truth, Drake falls back to his own fortified strongholds of accusing us of bitterness, lies, falsehoods, hate mongering, obsessing, fabricating allegations, etc. After having heard Lee/LSM assault Christianity for 40+ years, Drake just can't help himself.

After having personally read all of aron's posts, I don't see these anti-Chinese themes. What I see is Lee/LSM selling these "Chinese themes" as spiritual themes to an unsuspecting Western people, and aron pointing it out to us. Should not we examine Lee's teachings in the light of scripture and LC history? Did not Apostle Paul teach us to "Test all things, hold on to the good" (I Thess. 5.21)?

WL/LSM hold and spread exclusive teachings all together unique to their movement. The rest of the body of Christ has never accepted them, or has long ago decided to reject them. Whether Drake likes it or not, these teachings should be examined.

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But I want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

I agree we all have warts, me too. Big ones. And we love all the saints with warts.

But if we have a Publisher/Ministry that is causing a "wart pandemic" then it behooves us to check it out, don't you think?

Drake · 07-02-2018, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

In my travels this summer, I may be able to make a LC meeting in person. This way I can see for myself if these things you speak of are true. I don't doubt what you've said, Ohio, and this is much of what I saw and experienced when I visited the LC in Tacoma WA about 7 years ago. But want to be a good Berean . . .

And let me say again that He loves us all and we all have warts of one kind or another.

Have a safe trip and an enjoyable time.

This whole criticism of the HWMR is a tempest in a teapot.. way overblown. I grew up reading weekly lessons in the Baptist Church. I taught weekly lessons from the Assembly of God publications.

When I came into the Lords recovery over four decades ago there was no HWMR. Mostly, it was one man speaking a message and the testimonies afterward often bore very little resemblance to the message just spoken. I enjoyed those testimonies but they were scattered on many topics and often they were time consuming sea stories. The consideration at the time was to bring all the members of the Body into their function in the local church meetings so the format had to change from one-to-many (one five talented functioning) to many-to-many (functioning one talented ones)... of course that precipitated objections from those who were used to giving messages... but I digress. However, though more had something and more time was available for that, the prophesying meeting still lacked focus and some interpreted the vacuum created when the one man stopped speaking as an invitation to fill that gap. Also, not every member had a practical way to create a prophesy that would edify the members. We were transitioning from an older unscriptural model to the 1 Corinthians 14 model of each one has. Not every member knew how to function and the objective was to help every member to fulfill their God given priestly function. The HWMR addressed those needs and having lived before, during the transition and after I can testify that it brought much needed edification to those meetings.

Drake

aron · 07-02-2018, 07:29 AM

-6

Drake,

So according to the "Shape" definition in post #147 is we are all believers, so all local churches that contain believers are exactly identical in "shape", whether or not "they take the 'local ground'"? Whether or not they read HWMR on Sunday morning? Okay, guess I totally missed that. So Lee is saying that all believers everywhere have the exact same shape, form and purpose? Irrespective of their "affiliation" with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? Well, I feel dull, and confess I totally missed that. I thought it was a prescription for outward conformity. He's saying we all already have perfect heavenly "conformity" regardless of present earthly appearances?

Good - part one is resolved. Mea culpa. Now what about part two: not having any individual distinctiveness? I don't know how any "normal" person could interpret that except what it seems to be saying, which is what I thought the first part was saying, that everyone has to be "exactly identical" outwardly in appearance, in expression, etc. Which is, for lack of a better term, "crazytown". Unless you can show us what he really meant?

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there. If you'd bother to read it, you'd see that I'm not the only one who's noticed these things. In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Here was a response to my initial post on that thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Good observation, Aron.

I'm neither Western nor Asian but I live in a Chinese community. I like these people. Though I believe I'll be always an outsider for them. Anyway, in three words, I'd describe the Chinese mentality as:

1) Subordination;
2) Collectiveness;
3) “Us” versus “Them” mentality. (Well, that is slightly more than one word

)

Generally, the Chinese are also lack of creativity and tend to imitate or copy someone else's models and patterns.

BTW, can you guess whose quote is this: "The individual is subordinate to the organisation. The minority is subordinate to the majority. The lower level is subordinate to the higher level"...

That was Mao Tse-tung's quote but it pretty much sums up the LC's value system.

There are about 350 comments on the thread. Here is another one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I've been tooting this horn about the dichotomy between Eastern and Western cultures being at the root of the problems in the Recovery for years. Waking up to the realization that I had grown up in, and given my life to propagate, an incognito Chinese church was deeply disturbing, but the conviction only gets clearer as the years go by.

I stumbled in here today by chance. Wasn't even aware this forum existed. Reading this thread almost gave me goosebumps, to finally hear some traction for this understanding. In a discussion that I didn't personally initiate, no less. Actually, most of what I've had are monologues, not discussions. Nice to see that someone else can connect the dots.

Once you see this dichotomy clearly, I believe you'll recognize that nearly every gripe from disgruntled ex-members or frustrated current members has its roots in Asian cultural values that got institutionalized so deeply into the practices of the Local Churches that they create an atmosphere of expectations so rigid they are just as effective at enforcing conformity as posting a bouncer at the door, or a requiring a profession of doctrinal faith that one must sign in order to be fully received into the circle of fellowship. Some of the Asian cultural elements relate to standards of conduct that are pushed as if essential to the Christian life. Others elements are Eastern cultural values that make their way into doctrinal stances on minor truths, and then get stressed like major ones. The manifestations are numerous, but the root is the same. We (they) failed to distinguish between Lee's culture and his portion of Christ.

On the one hand, I believe this is the glaringly obvious "elephant in the room" that even the current leaders in the Recovery acknowledge has been wreaking havoc and hemorrhaging the life-blood of what, by all rights, should be a thriving organism. Whether they see the elephant for what it truly is or not is not for me to say, but I've been encouraged just to hear they acknowledge the problems it causes for them. And that encouragement is not rooted in cynicism toward them.

On the other hand, though, there is a reason why so many members can't see the elephant, and why the leaders (in my view) should be given some slack for failing to evict it. I bumped into it daily, got trampled by it with bothersome frequency, and wrestled with it on and off for over a decade before all the loose threads of my chronic frustrations got tied together by the common thread of Asian culture, at which point the resultant tapestry finally came together. It was a relief in the small sense that the puzzle finally got solved and yielded a coherent picture. But it was devastating at the same time -- my faith got rocked and my Christian life got shipwrecked by the disappointment. Blindness is not always willful, and the more painful the picture, the more innate subconscious defense mechanisms there are to prevent you from seeing it.

Plus, it's a complex picture, not a simple line-drawing. I blame no one for not being able to connect the dots without help. It took me about 30 pages even just to put my thoughts on the topic together when a brother asked me to connect the dots for him by giving detailed explanations rather than generalizations. It's like walking someone through calculus, when you can jump 5 steps at a time, but they need each little one spelled out for them separately in order to see the connections at first. I'll probably share pieces of that effort here as the discussion progresses, but I'm leery of becoming one more disgruntled bozo with an angry manifesto. (Sorry if that that offends anyone here; I trust most of you here, like me, have been there for a time, even if you've moved past that phase.)

For the record: I have no interest in WL, LC, or BB bashing. I bless the Lord for the privilege of growing up and giving my best years whole-heartedly to be receive what these people gained of Christ, and serve together with them. Some of you here, I feel, have some issues with bitterness that you would do well to seek help dealing with. God forbid that He eventually has to judge you with the same strictness and enthusiasm with which some of you here are casting stones. I have no interest in participating in that or providing ammunition for those who are just looking for rocks to throw rather than to build something with.

If there have been moral or ethical wrongdoings that set some of you off, I can't speak to that, as I never noticed such things in greater frequency or severity than are common to any institution, sacred or secular. I'm just talking about the personal offenses and reactionary cynicism that rise up when a person finds out they don't fit in to something they had hoped to be a part of at some point. I still struggle with disappointment that there seems to be no place for me among what those dear folks are doing. But I'm dealing with it, and staying positive is part of how that is best done.

So if you don't want to "connect the dots" that's fine. But don't play so insulted when others do.

BTW, there are LOTS of problems of the "everything goes" freedom-first individualistic Western mind. The Chinese (and Koreans and Japanese and Indians &c) have a lot to show us. God created them, too.

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I agree we all have warts, me too. Big ones. And we love all the saints with warts.

But if we have a Publisher/Ministry that is causing a "wart pandemic" then it behooves us to check it out, don't you think?

And that's what I intend to do, the Lord willing!

As said before, what you describe is generally what I saw during my last visit. But also, I don't just want to be with the LC saints to judge them, but rather to experience Christ with them, just as I would those in other Christian groups. The Anointing will show and speak to me as He wills.

UntoHim · 07-02-2018, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there.

Sorry aron, I was thinking of this thread but I couldn't find it. Thanks for digging this one up and I have merged the two threads.

Quote:

In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Excellent point! I just recently pointed out how Hanegraaff et all called the Local Church "a Chinese interpretation of Christianity" (paraphrase) If this had been said by any of us "opposers" or "bitter ex members" the Local Church minions would have gone ballistic. Thanks, aron, for pointing out the glaring hypocrisy.
-

Drake · 07-02-2018, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

-6

Drake,

So according to the "Shape" definition in post #147 is we are all believers, so all local churches that contain believers are exactly identical in "shape", whether or not "they take the 'local ground'"? Whether or not they read HWMR on Sunday morning? Okay, guess I totally missed that. So Lee is saying that all believers everywhere have the exact same shape, form and purpose? Irrespective of their "affiliation" with the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee? Well, I feel dull, and confess I totally missed that. I thought it was a prescription for outward conformity. He's saying we all already have perfect heavenly "conformity" regardless of present earthly appearances?

Good - part one is resolved. Mea culpa. Now what about part two: not having any individual distinctiveness? I don't know how any "normal" person could interpret that except what it seems to be saying, which is what I thought the first part was saying, that everyone has to be "exactly identical" outwardly in appearance, in expression, etc. Which is, for lack of a better term, "crazytown". Unless you can show us what he really meant?

As far as Chinese/Asian culture in the LC and its source in WN and WL, I already started a thread called "The Asian Mind and the Western Mind" and it has quite a few posts and people seem to have been reading it. I didn't start this thread, and probably UntoHim should have appended this discussion there. If you'd bother to read it, you'd see that I'm not the only one who's noticed these things. In fact I daresay the famous "We Were Wrong" essays from CRI put down most of the problems in LC history to "cultural misunderstandings" - not entirely on the part of the Westerners who appended the 'cult' label. Lee also 'misunderstood' the Westerners (so I remember them saying - you can look it up if I'm wrong). So if you think I'm "outrageous" fine; I'm not the only one who's noticed these things.

Here was a response to my initial post on that thread:

There are about 350 comments on the thread. Here is another one.

So if you don't want to "connect the dots" that's fine. But don't play so insulted when others do.

BTW, there are LOTS of problems of the "everything goes" freedom-first individualistic Western mind. The Chinese (and Koreans and Japanese and Indians &c) have a lot to show us. God created them, too.

aron,

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating the footnote you referenced, that you didn't actually read) is missed on you? Had you not used it in a failed attempt to substantiate your narrative there would be no discussion about it... just an anecdotal exchange between you and I who have different experiences in life. You would have your view of things and I would have mine. But you didn't.... you did what many people who want to take Witness Lee and his followers down... you twisted what the man actually said to create a straw man of your own creation so you could set it afire to roars of approval from the usual crowd.

But look, your personal views do not matter to me at all. I'm happy for you.... you have something to jump out of bed for everyday... maybe a sense of purpose in life. The sense of pride that is found with crusaders of justice. Who knows?

But, this is an important topic... please provide a direct quote from Witness Lee himself to substantiate your assertion.... let's have a look.

Thanks
Drake

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating the footnote you referenced, that you didn't actually read) is missed on you? Had you not used it a a failed attempt to substantiate your narrative there would be no discussion about it... just an anecdotal exchange between you and I who have different experiences in life. You would have your view of things and I would have mine. But you didn't.... you did what many people who want to take Witness Lee and his followers down... you twisted what the man actually said to create a straw man of your own creation so you could set it afire to roars of approval from the usual crowd.

There's no crowd here like there was at Whistler, that Kangaroo Court that unleashed LSM's legal thugs on the Midwest LC's. And it was you and Witness Lee who took down all those men of God like John Ingalls who cried out for justice on behalf of the sisters molested by Philip Lee at the LSM offices.

Drake, you have a serious problem with paranoia and the facts of history at LSM. Please don't project them onto aron.

aron · 07-02-2018, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

What about misappropriating, misrepresenting, misquoting, and fabricating

Thanks
Drake

I'm sure you were outraged when you found out the lies behind the FPR, weren't you? Righteous indignation boiled over I'm sure.

Witness Lee made a long career out of misappropriating and mis-representing so get off your high horse. And I didn't charge you any money, either. If "exactly identical" is a heavenly abode of celestial "lampstands", not the actual physical churches on the ground (thus we can ignore the words "shape" which would otherwise have no practical meaning), you still haven't explained how there can be no individual distinction between the churches?

You quoted the footnote and I copied it. What does, Not having any individual distinctiveness mean? Something in heaven? Or on earth? It is not self-evident, unless it means what I think it means, which is Witness Lee was telling the churches to get in line and be quiet. If it means something else you should say it instead of hiding behind a barrage of bluster. Just say it. What does it mean? It is the words from Witness Lee. Revelation 1:20 Footnote whatever.

Here are the Great Man's actual words:

"but positively, in their nature, shape, and purpose, they are absolutely identical and are connected to one another". So Laodicea and Ephesus were connected. As were the Baptist and the RCC and all the other "churches of history". Right? The connection, being heavenly, transcends space and time and culture. Good.

Now, "absolutely identical" in "nature, shape, and purpose". So this means, again, the Baptist and RCC and EOC and all other groups are absolutely identical in confession and faith and hope. Like you and I are absolutely identical, being both created in the image of our Maker.

Okay, I get part one.

Now what about part two. Again let's focus on the Great Man's words and not get distracted by rock pigeons or ukuleles.

"They not only are shining locally but also are bearing universally the same testimony both to the localities and to the universe. They are of the same nature and in the same shape. They bear the same lamp for the same purpose and are fully identified with one another, not having any individual distinctiveness. "

"No individual distinctiveness" - what does this mean, please? I get the "bearing universally" part as in Part One. The Baptists and RCC and EOC and Presbyterians all bear universally the same nature, shape, purpose, the same light, the same glory, the same hope. All of them are exactly the same. Amazing footnote, really I like it a lot. Again MEA CULPA if I misunderstood it.

But what of "Not having any individual distinctiveness"? What does that mean? I don't want to misunderstand. It LOOKS LIKE Witness Lee was telling everybody to be the same in expression. In heaven I see distinctiveness. Like I said, star differs from star in glory. No problem. So the quote "The differences among the seven churches recorded in chs. 2 and 3 are all of a negative nature," makes no sense. Because you already said that there is no difference! Everyone is exactly the same! Same shape! Same nature! Same purpose! Suddenly we talk of differences....

So this is why they go to FTT? To understand footnotes? Because the footnotes contradict. First they say we are EXACTLY THE SAME with no differences and then there are differences. And clearly there are individual distinctivenesses in heaven. The seven stars which are the seven angels to the seven churches - how do you know they are exactly identical? You don't. The twelve gates? The fruit bearing each month from the tree of life? Do you think that each fruit tastes exactly the same, with no individual distinctiveness? No?

So there is some 'mystical' meaning to the words which we assume Lee had, and we are to soak in them and become divine in life and nature? But don't bother trying to understand it? Because you are not helping. The only way to "get" the footnote is to repeat it, "shape, amen, shape" and don't think about what the words mean. Otherwise, it looks to me like Lee is trying to make everyone exactly the same. Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books. (Only we had Rainbow Booklets). No you say, it is a heavenly view. But you don't explain it. You just bluster and act upset.

So explain it. Explain what these words mean. "No individual distinctiveness". Either in heaven or on earth. It LOOKS LIKE Lee was trying to control and manipulate the believers. What was he really doing?

"No individual distinctiveness" What does it mean? I literally have never heard of such a thing. The universe is full of distinctiveness. Where is this place of Full Sameness? The Full Time Training? Is that the Gate of Heaven? Everyone dress the same? Because the Footnote 1:20 from the RecV and what I remember from the LC resonate. The Individual is Gone and you are now in the Hive. And one day you realize this is not heaven but the Witness Lee Duplication Factory. Everybody is Exactly the Same. No Individual Distinctiveness.

I figured it was Chinese culture. Fallen humanity trying to reach God. You say it's not. Well then what is it? Please explain.

It sure LOOKS to me like bricks and slime building the tower of Babel all over again, but you say it's not, it's "intrinsically" something or other. "Universally divine" or something but the words make no sense. Maybe the FTT can help. Like they say, "You have to see the vision." They probably say something like that in the college meetings: "Don't try to understand. Just go to the FTT".

Drake · 07-02-2018, 01:15 PM

-1

aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books."

.....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy.

Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument.

Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms)
Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument.

Drake

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books."

.....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy.

Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument.

Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms)
Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument.

Drake

So predictable, as you said "right on schedule."

Once again Drake is found hiding under the rug of some supposed "Logical Fallacy."

aron · 07-02-2018, 03:08 PM

-2

Drake ok.

Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no.

I see, star differs from star in glory but the footnote says no.

You feign outrage but where is the competing vision? It took poster named "Trapped" to rescue you from part one, the "exactly identical" part in "shape". I don't ever remember hearing that a church had a shape. What was I supposed to see?

But hooray for "Trapped" who explained it nicely. Then I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers.

aron · 07-02-2018, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Once again Drake is found hiding under the rug of some supposed "Logical Fallacy."

Well I set him up and you set me up. You were the one who told us what you saw in the FTTT. How Lee beamed over the crowd dressed identically! Finally we were all "one"!

I saw a cultural component in this enforced homogeneity. Now, other groups practice similar acculturation techniques, but how many Exclusive Brethren are there two centuries on? Compared to how the Nee/Lee group took off and even metastised among the Chinese. So I say there's a cultural connection. Centuries of culture have 'primed' them for this group. Contrast to the west, where individualism is ingrained in our psyche. Harder to find the Hive Mind.

Some westerners do but it's not nearly as pronounced.

aron · 07-02-2018, 03:25 PM

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see.

Ohio · 07-02-2018, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Well I set him up and you set me up. You were the one who told us what you saw in the FTTT. How Lee beamed over the crowd dressed identically! Finally we were all "one"!

It was the Training in Taipei May 1987, the place was that big auditorium in Hall#1. Our uniform was blue slacks for guys and blue skirts for the ladies. All of us wore white shirts and LSM ties, and blue jackets with LSM logos. WL loved it -- the sea of blue! He would even get upset if a seat was empty.

When the training first started, at our first get together for the elders and responsible ones at Hall#3, an orientation session, one brother DP of Florida mistakenly wore a "secular" tie. AY just reamed him out, up and down, left and right, front and back, all for our "edification." After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office.

I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

The next day I successfully overturned it on appeal.

They even went so far as to assign teenage trainees to inspect our underwear drawers. That really upset a few brothers. WL was reputed to be so godly that even his socks and ties were all in order. I would credit his wife or laundry service for that. I heard a number of horror stories from WL about co-workers who threw their socks on the table and on the lampshade. Egads!

I regularly heard about those "Witness Lee Duplication Centers" and "Witness Lee Tape Recorders." I never heard that in my LC or in Cleveland. Only when traveling to Anaheim or other LSM venues did I hear about that crazy stuff.

Were you there for that, "Let's Go, Lin Ko!"?

I KNOW that our friend DRAKE was there for that!

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It was the Training in Taipei May 1987, the place was that big auditorium in Hall#1. Our uniform was blue slacks for guys and blue skirts for the ladies. All of us wore white shirts and LSM ties, and blue jackets with LSM logos. WL loved it -- the sea of blue! He would even get upset if a seat was empty.

When the training first started, at our first get together for the elders and responsible ones at Hall#3, an orientation session, one brother DP of Florida mistakenly wore a "secular" tie. AY just reamed him out, up and down, left and right, front and back, all for our "edification." After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office.

I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

The next day I successfully overturned it on appeal.

They even went so far as to assign teenage trainees to inspect our underwear drawers. That really upset a few brothers. WL was reputed to be so godly that even his socks and ties were all in order. I would credit his wife or laundry service for that. I heard a number of horror stories from WL about co-workers who threw their socks on the table and on the lampshade. Egads!

I regularly heard about those "Witness Lee Duplication Centers" and "Witness Lee Tape Recorders." I never heard that in my LC or in Cleveland. Only when traveling to Anaheim or other LSM venues did I hear about that crazy stuff.

Were you there for that, "Let's Go, Lin Ko!"?

I KNOW that our friend DRAKE was there for that!

Wow! This is stuff that should be in a movie as it sounds downright entertaining! If what you say is really true (and I have little reason to doubt what you say), then PRAISE THE LORD that He got my family the heck out of Dodge before all that nonsense found it's way to us! Thank you Jesus!!!

It's hard to imagine how we let ourselves get lead like that . . .

Drake · 07-02-2018, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see.

A poll?

It’s irrelevant especially in a one sided forum like this one.

Hate the break the news to you Aron. That is called “ Argumentum ad populum “

“In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, vox populi,[2] and in Latin as argumentum ad numerum ("appeal to the number"), fickle crowd syndrome, and consensus gentium ("agreement of the clans").“

Drake

Sons to Glory! · 07-02-2018, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

A poll.

How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"?

I did.

Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"?

I was.

We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour.

I don't believe I heard those specific things. But I stayed in Ohio in the 80s - didn't go to trainings then - when all that stuff was supposedly going on. According to what I'm hearing, Ohio was more insulated from this stuff than other places at that time. (I guess that's one of the things that got them in trouble . . .)

Trapped · 07-02-2018, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

After that, any dress code violations received a citation from the training office. I once got cited for rolling up my sleeves for dinner.

This still happens in the FTTA (at least in the last 7-8 years). Trainees can literally receive a citation letter essentially questioning their heart for/consecration to the Lord due to a minor (and I mean minor) dress code violation.

Talk about heavy-handed.

Many trainees, both from decades ago and to this day, are also fully aware that red is an especially egregious color to be caught with on their person.

aron · 07-03-2018, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Drake ok.

Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no. . . I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers.

I recently noticed Paul writing to the Romans and telling them of the "gentile churches". "They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them."

So I see distinctiveness. There are churches of the gentiles. They are not "exactly identical" in outward appearance, or "shape" in any way I would understand the word. Maybe in heaven they are "one" in Christ, and to some degree should express this on earth (and Paul sought in his ministry to do just this, for example not his continued references to the "offerings of the gentiles" for the poor in Jerusalem).

But I don't see anyone trying to eliminate "individual distinctiveness" the way Lee apparently was in his footnote (Drake still has nor explained what Lee really meant, so I have to go by what it looks like). In fact when some came from James to apparently "eliminate the distinctiveness" of the Antiochian gentiles Paul resisted, loudly. (See Gal 2).

Quote:

THE HIDDEN HISTORY THE LOCAL CHURCH OF WITNESS LEE IN AMERICA
1. An official Letter of Dissociation signed by 21 Local Church leaders in Europe dissociating themselves from the LSM because: "It has come to our attention recently through several witnesses that gross immorality and some other sins mentioned in 1 Corinthians 5:11 have been committed by your son Philip Lee (who is identified as your Ministry Office) on more than one occasion over a long period of time. This deeply disturbs us. It grieves us even more that you and some of your close coworkers were aware of the situation and yet not only tolerated it but covered it up."
2. The testimony of John So who also wrote "I Myself Also Am A Man" to refute the heresy of man becoming God.
3. A letter by Bill Mallon to Witness Lee explaining how the LSM abused the Local Churches in the Southeast U.S. where he was once a coworker. The author of the site also does a comparison of what Lee said Bill wrote to him and what Bill actually did write to him.
4. Exerpts from a book by John Ingalls, another fomrer coworker who knew Witness Lee, the LSM, etc. intimately. His book is tilted "Speaking the Truth in Love" and explains what happened in the Local Churches and LSM during the late 80's and early 90's.
5. Refers to an 11 page letter by Ken Unger's wife. Ken Unger was a leader in Huntington Beach and his wife worked in the LSM and knew how it operated. When she and Ken tried to read this well prepared letter to Witness Lee he cut her off and would not let her finish.
6. Rosemead division details exposing the very adverse effect the LSM at on that congregation and other ridiculous teachings and practices from the LSM such as:
a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues."
b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead."
c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right."
d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters."
The leader sent there by Witness Lee i.e. Francis Ball, under the direction of LSM, did such things as lock the meeting place to force the congregation to go to LSM meetings in Anaheim instead of their own, etc.
7. Raleigh leaders visit to Witness Lee. These leaders prepared a 71 page work titled: "Concerns Regarding our Practice Regarding Truth and Life" which Witness Lee promised to review with them. But when they went to talk with him they testified Brother Lee had no ear to hear them. It was as if they were talking to a wall.
8. OKC Couple. Refers to a couple in the Local Church in OKC who divorced against the wife's wishes. The wife was shunned by the Local Church there because she said it was becoming a cult. The leaders were not against the husband divorcing his wife and the wife was never allowed to enter their meeting hall again. When she tried the leaders told her to get off their property or they would call the police.
9. Witness Lee's Sons: A long 44 page e-mail dialogue with a former Local Church leader and the author of the Hiding History site detailing the behind the scences corrupt financial and ual adventures of Witness Lee's sons and the LSM against the members of the Local Churches and how Witness Lee knowingly covered it up and even engaged in some of the corrupt financial dealings himself.
Again, this is not an exhaustive list of contents but it should give the reader of this posting the general idea of the sort of things that go on in the Local Church and LSM and why many many believers left and still leave when they find out what really goes on underneath the shiny "spiritual" veneer and bullying legal tactics.

Note Point 6, a-d for quotes which indicate what happens when one culture begins to dominate.

Below another quote from an observer of the change to ministry control and the "flavor" and "atmosphere" that it brought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger

looking back I realize that Lee's methodology was like that of one incensed with control - he had to be the MANAGER (because he "had the gray hair") of everything and dictate to all. Some day he will have to face the Almighty for the damage he did to so many young people who were hurt by his actions and his subtle manners. In sum: He was a Chinese War Lord and practiced it with amazing cunning.

I gradually began to see what W.L. stood for and later on realized that his "doctrine of control" was exceedingly cruel and nefarious - he and Joe Stalin would have had much in common!

He could never give up anything to the Lord--he insisted on controlling all the churches, the workers and the elders--his model was that of the Antioch Church (so he claimed and so did Watchman Nee claim as well in Further Talks on the Church Life). In his last meeting with Doug Shearer and me he took out a copy of this text and read the following:

"I seems that Antioch was controlling them."

Then we asked Witness Lee: Was Watchman Nee referring to Antioch's "controlling them" - the antecedent of "them" - does it refer to the churches, the workers or the elders? Lee replied: ALL of them! At that point I looked at Doug Shearer and said: I think it's time for us to leave.

Lee had expressed the most totalitarian concept in Church control--more so than that of Pope Benedict's recent declarations that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church and that all others are "deficient" and/or "lesser" and even eluded to the fact that salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church is NOT an option, not viable--Lee, in essence, declared that the L.C. was virtually the only expression outside of Babylon. This arrogant, preposterous, exclusive, demeaning and pompous attitude and even belief system, is so outrageous and defining of a state of super spirituality that the only thing that one can conclude is a spiritual pride far and beyond anything uttered by modern man, aside from overt cults who acclaim the same but, even then, provide variety of expression--unlike the L.C. wherein all things must mimic the (as it is expressed now) the Living Stream Ministry--even the Methodists have not this conformity!

Sons to Glory! · 07-03-2018, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger SEE HERE: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...7373#post77373
looking back I realize that Lee's methodology was like that of one incensed with control - he had to be the MANAGER (because he "had the gray hair") of everything and dictate to all. Some day he will have to face the Almighty for the damage he did to so many young people who were hurt by his actions and his subtle manners. In sum: He was a Chinese War Lord and practiced it with amazing cunning.

Aron - Thanks much for posting that quote from Doug Krieger! I was able to go to that thread from 2015 (which you started) and read about what he said concerning Berkeley in 1974! This filled in some details about why Doug et. al., were expelled from there, which I've been wondering about for over 40 years!

(On that thread I asked if there has been any updates regarding Doug Krieger since it was posted in 2015.)

Ohio · 07-03-2018, 10:49 AM

Quote:

6. Rosemead division details exposing the very adverse effect the LSM at on that congregation and other ridiculous teachings and practices from the LSM such as:

a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues."
b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead."
c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right."
d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters."

The leader sent there by Witness Lee i.e. Francis Ball, under the direction of LSM, did such things as lock the meeting place to force the congregation to go to LSM meetings in Anaheim instead of their own, etc.

Drake has squirmed every time aron has mention Asian influences, yet there was a chaotic time when the leaders at LSM were actively employing Communist tactics in their takeover of the LC's.

Drake also squirms when I brought up their bully tactics at the little Mansfield LC in Ohio, claiming it was all justified because somebody was locked out of the meeting hall. Here we see senior Blended FB doing the same.

Drake condemned TC and the young Mansfield elders for doing this, let's see if he will also condemn WL and FB for doing the same in Rosemead.

Trapped · 07-06-2018, 05:06 PM

Is the ground of oneness concept unique to the LRC? Does the LRC consider that a "recovered" concept/practice? Or have there been other groups after the NT time but prior to Nee/Lee who saw/practiced the same thing?

Ohio · 07-06-2018, 05:23 PM

They stole the "ground" from the exclusive British Plymouth Brethren, who also have a checkered history of lawsuits, divisions, and excommunications.
Nee was a part of the Exclusive Brethren until he committed a "mortal sin." He joined a communion service and "broke bread" with a part of the "degraded, divided, condemned system of Christianity."

Here is an interesting article about W. Nee and the Exclusives.

Trapped · 07-06-2018, 05:37 PM

Thanks. Do you know how far back the BPB went?

It's a small point why I'm asking. I was just thinking today about the seven lampstands and that if other Christian teachers, including Nee, said that one level of interpretation of the seven lampstands is that they represent the church at different points throughout history, then the LRC “the ground of oneness” cannot determine the legitimacy of a lampstand because this “ground” is supposedly a recovered truth in the very present time. If previous gatherings of believers before the Nee/Lee local churches did not meet on this recovered ground of oneness, how then could it be possible for the lampstands to represent the church at different points throughout history?

Ohio · 07-06-2018, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks. Do you know how far back the BPB went?

It's a small point why I'm asking. I was just thinking today about the seven lampstands and that if other Christian teachers, including Nee, said that one level of interpretation of the seven lampstands is that they represent the church at different points throughout history, then the LRC “the ground of oneness” cannot determine the legitimacy of a lampstand because this “ground” is supposedly a recovered truth in the very present time. If previous gatherings of believers before the Nee/Lee local churches did not meet on this recovered ground of oneness, how then could it be possible for the lampstands to represent the church at different points throughout history?

The British Plymouth Brethren under John Darby exerted their exclusive ways for the first time when they excommunicated Benjamin Newton of Plymouth in 1845. When George Muller and Henry Craik of Bethesda Chapel in nearby Bristol received into fellowship excommunicated members from Plymouth, they too were excommunicated. The resulting split resulted in the Exclusive and Open Brethren assemblies.

Both Darby of the Brethren, Nee of the Little Flock in China, and Lee of the LCM in Taiwan and the US considered the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3 to be historically fulfilled. Each considered their own followers to be the church in Philadelphia.

It's totally ironic and disgusting that both the Exclusives and the LCM today consider that their leader is the one oracle of God ... at the same time! Today Bruce Hales of Australia is their MOTA, Minister of the Age. So ridiculous. Both groups claim to be the sole lampstand in each city. Both groups claim their leader is the Minister of the Age.

Today the Wikipedia website for the Plymouth Brethren even considers Watchman Nee to be one of their own! Doesn't this sound like LSM:

Quote:

The Plymouth Brethren Christian Church (PBCC) is a Protestant church, often known as Exclusive Brethren or Raven-Taylor-Hales Brethren. These Brethren hold an uncompromising view on the doctrine of separation and their practice has steadily evolved from other Plymouth Brethren groups and also from mainstream Christendom.

In a radical departure from traditional Plymouth Brethren rejection of a clerical hierarchy, the PBCC has evolved into a hierarchical organization dominated by one person known as the Elect Vessel, the "Lord's servant" or the Man of God. The current Elect Vessel is Bruce Hales of Australia. As the most definable (and likely largest) of the brethren groups, most media reporting of "Exclusive Brethren" relates to the Plymouth Brethren Christian Church although other branches do exist.

Notable PBCC members:

Watchman Nee[110] — Respected Leader in the "Little Flock" movement in China after being excommunicated by Exclusive brethren for "breaking bread with sectarians."

Drake · 07-08-2018, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Note Point 6, a-d for quotes which indicate what happens when one culture begins to dominate..

Aron,

Please provide a reference for 6 a-d.

Thx
Drake

UntoHim · 07-08-2018, 06:46 AM

a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues."
b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead."
c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right."
d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters."

aron, you can provide references if you want, but the references have been provided on this forum many times over the years. Now, just how much of this non-sense was influenced by Asian/Chinese culture is certainly an open question in my mind. I think some of the excesses during this time in the Local Church can be directly linked to the culture that Witness Lee brought to the movement in North America. (Of course Lee didn't have to bring such influence to the churches in Taiwan/Asia...that area of the world was already steeped in ancient Asian culture and tradition)
-

aron · 07-08-2018, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

Please provide a reference for 6 a-d.

Thx
Drake

I believe it's from the flyer "reconsideration of the vision". You can google it if you want.

Of course this stuff didn't get printed in the official organs. WL wasn't stupid - if he said, "I'm just a businessman trying to dupe gullible Americans with my spiritual mumbo-jumbo" what do you think that would do to his bottom line?

No, he left that to Paul Hon and Ray Graver. And a few others. They would be sure to set us all straight. What WL "really meant."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Rutledge

"In the church life at that time, Witness Lee was very much in the background among the churches. While we sought the Lord for our daily walk, family life, and function in the Body of Christ, Ray would constantly reference Witness Lee for all matters – personal, local, and extra-local. Ray often told others that they needed to be able to 'read between the lines' of what Brother Lee was saying and 'hear what he really means' and that 'he does not tell you directly what he wants'. Ray was always bringing Witness Lee to the foreground in the church, a trend that only increased with time."

I think Ray's quote is perfect - "he does not tell you directly what he wants". There was the need of 'interpretation' of the 'oracle'.

Point 6, a-d were exemplars of what was spoken around the New Way to push it forward. I myself heard BP tell us, "Don't pray - just go" (meaning migrate to Russia). That was the kind of talk we heard.

Ohio · 07-08-2018, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Point 6, a-d were exemplars of what was spoken around the New Way to push it forward. I myself heard BP tell us, "Don't pray - just go" (meaning migrate to Russia). That was the kind of talk we heard.

Ingalls' STTIL has more. These are from Appendix A:

Quotes from various sources:

“Since Christianity is in ruins, the Lord raised up the recovery; since the recovery is in ruins, the Lord raised up the FTTT.” (Andrew Yu, Oct.,1987)

“Whatever Witness Lee says, we make it happen!” (Paul Hon in training).

“We’re Witness Lee’s Company.” “I’ve got Witness Lee fever.” (Jake Jacobson)

“There is no need to pray about what to do; just follow the ministry.” (By the Trainers in Taipei)

“We don’t even need to think; we just do what we are told.” (Trainers)

“If the ministry says go east, you just go east. If the ministry says go west, you just go west.” (Andrew Yu, The Way To Go On, Voice of a High School Heart Newspaper, pg8) “Just give yourself to the ministry… that’s all.”

“No Opinions, no cold wind.” (Trainers, FTTT)

The first one is telling, "The Recovery is in ruins."

awareness · 07-08-2018, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Hate the break the news to you Aron. That is called “ Argumentum ad populum “

"EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES. -2 Corinthians 13:1b

Drake · 07-08-2018, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I believe it's from the flyer "reconsideration of the vision". You can google it if you want.

Of course this stuff didn't get printed in the official organs.
.

No Aron. It’s your argument and your responsibility to provide sources you quote. Who said it and when?

Otherwise, it is just hearsay at best.

Thanks
Drake

UntoHim · 07-08-2018, 09:33 PM

No Drake, you wouldn't know aron's argument if it came up and bit you on the nose. You don't know his argument because you are obviously not listening to a word the man is saying. I'm not asking you to agree, but your constant harping on "sources!, sources!, sources! is making it look like you're trying to distract us from the issue at hand. All the quotes and quips aron is bringing forth are all common knowledge. They've been written about in black and white and on the Internet for years now.

...and speaking of responsibility, it's mine to keep this forum readable, informative and hopefully integrous. You're making my job really, really hard my man. I mean, your arguing about whether the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Why don't you just concede the fact that these things were said, and then you can spend your time actually addressing the issue(s) at hand. -

Ohio · 07-09-2018, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

No Aron. It’s your argument and your responsibility to provide sources you quote. Who said it and when?

Otherwise, it is just hearsay at best.

Thanks
Drake

I have been hearing LSMers dodge issues for decades claiming "hearsay" and their favorite line is "taking it out of context."

Drake · 07-09-2018, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

No Drake, you wouldn't know aron's argument if it came up and bit you on the nose. You don't know his argument because you are obviously not listening to a word the man is saying. I'm not asking you to agree, but your constant harping on "sources!, sources!, sources! is making it look like you're trying to distract us from the issue at hand. All the quotes and quips aron is bringing forth are all common knowledge. They've been written about in black and white and on the Internet for years now.

...and speaking of responsibility, it's mine to keep this forum readable, informative and hopefully integrous. You're making my job really, really hard my man. I mean, your arguing about whether the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Why don't you just concede the fact that these things were said, and then you can spend your time actually addressing the issue(s) at hand. -

UntoHim,

I have no idea whether those things were said or not. No idea who “LSM” refers to. Aron uses “—-“ and that in normal dialogue refers to an actual statement. No idea of where it was said or the context in which it was said. Verbal or printed? No idea. So no, I will not concede that those things were said. No, sir. Aron made an assertion, he uses quotes to lend support to it, he says LSM made the statement, .....ok, so let’s see the actual quote.

Frankly, if these statements have been on the Internet for years, are so well known, were a tectonic shift in the Lords recovery, then it should be easy to provide the source of the quote. If not, it is just another example of unfounded allegations to which certain members of this forum are so inclined. So, it is certainly not Drake that presents a challenge to the integrity of this forum. Asking for and providing sources for direct quotes maintains any semblance of integrity this forum might have. For that, you know you can count on me.

As to Aron’s argument , his whole portfolio of cultural arguments for that matter is not hard to understand. I’ve already refuted them one by one. They are illogical, unsubstantiated, weak in persuasiveness, and reflect a heart of bias. He is entitled to his opinion but not his own facts.

Drake

Ohio · 07-09-2018, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I have no idea whether those things were said or not. No idea who “LSM” refers to. Aron uses “—-“ and that in normal dialogue refers to an actual statement. No idea of where it was said or the context in which it was said. Verbal or printed? No idea. So no, I will not concede that those things were said. No, sir. Aron made an assertion, he uses quotes to lend support to it, he says LSM made the statement, .....ok, so let’s see the actual quote.

Drake, I provided quotes from John Ingalls' book STTIL and that wasn't good enough for you?

Let me remind you that John Ingalls was a "Founding Father" of the Recovery in the USA since the very early 1960's. He led the LSM team which translated the N.T. Recovery Version. He compiled the Hymnal used in all the LC's.

awareness · 07-09-2018, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

UntoHim,

I have no idea whether those things were said or not. No idea who “LSM” refers to. Aron uses “—-“ and that in normal dialogue refers to an actual statement. No idea of where it was said or the context in which it was said. Verbal or printed? No idea. So no, I will not concede that those things were said. No, sir. Aron made an assertion, he uses quotes to lend support to it, he says LSM made the statement, .....ok, so let’s see the actual quote.

And bro Drake, we have no idea about you, or why you are here, or why you say what you say, or why you deny that these things happened or that they were said. Cuz maybe for good reasons ... maybe not ... we don't know ... you actually admit that you are hiding.

Truth be told, I know more about the JW guy that comes to my door. He too uses the same tactics to defend his cult, as you use to defend the LSM Witness Lee personality cult ; the same tactics used by anyone devoted to a group, to cover up anything that will reflect poorly on the reputation of the group they are devoted to ; 'cept we know nothing of your devotion to the Lee group, nor your association to it.

Unlike my JW friend, you don't put all your cards on the table. So maybe you could at least come out and tell us why you are so concerned about the integrity of the content on this forum.

Ohio · 07-09-2018, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And bro Drake, we have no idea about you, or why you are here, or why you say what you say, or why you deny that these things happened or that they were said. Cuz maybe for good reasons ... maybe not ... we don't know ... you actually admit that you are hiding.

Truth be told, I know more about the JW guy that comes to my door. He too uses the same tactics to defend his cult, as you use to defend the LSM Witness Lee personality cult ; the same tactics used by anyone devoted to a group, to cover up anything that will reflect poorly on the reputation of the group they are devoted to ; 'cept we know nothing of your devotion to the Lee group, nor your association to it.

Unlike my JW friend, you don't put all your cards on the table. So maybe you could at least come out and tell us why you are so concerned about the integrity of the content on this forum.

Drake has told us that he has been in the LC's for 40+ years and that he personally knows some of the Blendeds.

Unlike you and I, most other posters reserve the right to remain silent about the rest of their details. Besides UntoHim gets upset when anyone discusses others' anonymity or lack thereof.

Mum's the word, except around here where folks call their mother "Mum" like the Brits.

Drake · 07-09-2018, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And bro Drake, we have no idea about you, or why you are here, or why you say what you say, or why you deny that these things happened or that they were said. Cuz maybe for good reasons ... maybe not ... we don't know ... you actually admit that you are hiding........

....So maybe you could at least come out and tell us why you are so concerned about the integrity of the content on this forum.

Bro awareness,

Thanks for your questions.

Of course, you know me. I've provided my testimony, explained my experience both domestically and internationally. Talked about my over 4 decades in the Lord's recovery and my experiences before in Christianity and after taking this way... explained my beliefs and rendered my point of view on a variety of topics. I've talked about my experiences with various local churches and brothers, including leading ones some that stayed and some that left.. those that I knew, or met, conversed with.. etc. Hiding? You might mean that I don't let people know who I am or disclose enough information to figure that out. I explained that recently too.... nut cases.. in a forum very much like this one... Christians harassing me and my family.... stalking and threatening in an ugly attempt to shut me up. Ain't gonna happen twice.

If that doesn't satisfy your curiosity bro awareness then I got nuttin fer ya.

And I "deny that these things happened or that they were said"? In the quotations from aron (6a-d) even he doesn't know if they were really said. He just accepts that they were because in his typical fashion he is quoting something he read somewhere else. Therefore, why should I believe those quotations when the fellow cannot even cite who said them, where, and when? Is that how your belief system in constructed? No evidence, just relying on others to provide you with juicy material and then unable to defend your own argument? What kind of logic is that anyway... So and so said this and that means that... and if you don't believe me you can go search the web yourself? I'd say that is pitiful in an overly simplistic way, really. It's like watching mutton-busting... cute... maybe... but not a real rodeo.

Now, I am willing to answer your last question but before this becomes too long and stretched out.. please tell me how your questions of curiosity have anything to do with aron's inability to provide a source for "quotations" that he uses to propagandize his weak arguments?

Thanks
Drake

UntoHim · 07-09-2018, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

I have no idea whether those things were said or not.

Well, my friend, if you're that decidedly ignorant of what is common knowledge , then you probably shouldn't be getting involved in this line of discussion. Save your bullets for shootin at something you can see. To my knowledge, nobody at LSM, DCP or any other Local Church has EVER denied that all these things were said and even promoted. There are some others even more explosive, obnoxious and even cultish things that have been confirmed to me personally, but are not widely enough known that I would allow them to be put out on the forum.

Quote:

So no, I will not concede that those things were said.

Ok...for my reaction to this, see above.

Quote:

Frankly, if these statements have been on the Internet for years, are so well known, were a tectonic shift in the Lords recovery, then it should be easy to provide the source of the quote.

Who said anything about "a tectonic shift in the Lord's recovery"? None of the things aron has quoted from are even a slight shift of what Witness Lee had taught for the past 30 years of his life. I personally sat at the man's feet for quite a number of those years and nothing of those infamous quotes surprised me from the day I heard them. When you provide us with the WRITTEN CONFIRMATION that Witness Lee denied that he ever said that he "was the only person ON EARTH SPEAKING AS GOD'S ORACLE SINCE 1945" then you will have room to spout off about these matters. Till then...

Quote:

They are illogical, unsubstantiated, weak in persuasiveness, and reflect a heart of bias. He is entitled to his opinion but not his own facts.

Wow, Drake, you just described about 80% of Witness Lee's ministry, and about 95% of the Blended Brothers "ministry". I knew you could do it!

Drake · 07-09-2018, 09:28 PM

-1

UntoHim,

No one has ever denied is not the same as they agreed.

Yet, if these quotes 6 a-d were common knowledge then it should be easy enough to identify who made the statement, when and where they were said. Rather than go duck shooting why not simply produce the source? Perhaps because no one knows for sure?

And if you think I am ignorant of common knowledge why not enlightenment instead of derision?

Certain posters have opinions that they attempt to pawn off as fact. To do that they "quote" stuff. In this case "LSM". Maybe the actual quote is right. Maybe it should not have been said. Maybe it was taken out of context. Perhaps it was meant one way and taken another. I don't dismiss any of those or other possibilities. I don't dismiss that odd or peculiar things have been stated by servants and coworkers either. However, in this case there is no evidence of those ACTUAL statements aron quoted are real. Therefore, any conclusions (e.g."what happens when one culture begins to dominate ") derived from them is a flimsy argument. ..... and without merit.

Drake

Trapped · 07-09-2018, 10:20 PM

I have no dog in this particular fight, but this is about the only thing I can find online mentioning the points 6.a-d that also has any slight additional details around it (starts about 8-9 paragraphs down):

The True Account
by David Wang

Ohio · 07-10-2018, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I have no dog in this particular fight, but this is about the only thing I can find online mentioning the points 6.a-d that also has any slight additional details around it (starts about 8-9 paragraphs down):

The True Account
by David Wang

Thanks for finding this, which silences Drake's rebuttals.

David Wang was a highly respected elder in the church in Rosemead back in the 1980's with another elder Don Hardy. They were both repulsed by what what happening in the FTT Taipei, what was being brought back to the US, and what was happening at the Anaheim headquarters of LSM.

Don Hardy, a senior staff member at LSM who at the time was reading the Recovery Version onto tape for sale to the saints, walked in on the "Office Manager" Philip Lee one day while one of the female staff was sitting on his lap partly undressed in the act of adultery. Not very holy.

If you know anything about Exclusive Brethren history, you will know that James Taylor Sr. was their "anointed brother" or MOTA, after Darby and his successor had passed away. It was observed by many that his boy, James Taylor Jr., who succeeded him as their "MOTA," had a character identical to Philip Lee, complete with abuse, alcohol, and women. (The same could be said of countless Popes throughout the centuries.) The Exclusive Brethren (Peebs) even have their own websites for ex-members, one is WikiPeebia. It's like a mirror image of LCD. The Peebs also have a rich history of lawsuits towards all of their critics.

awareness · 07-10-2018, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Bro awareness,

Thanks for your questions.

Of course, you know me. I've provided my testimony, explained my experience both domestically and internationally. Talked about my over 4 decades in the Lord's recovery and my experiences before in Christianity and after taking this way... explained my beliefs and rendered my point of view on a variety of topics. I've talked about my experiences with various local churches and brothers, including leading ones some that stayed and some that left.. those that I knew, or met, conversed with.. etc. Hiding? You might mean that I don't let people know who I am or disclose enough information to figure that out. I explained that recently too.... nut cases.. in a forum very much like this one... Christians harassing me and my family.... stalking and threatening in an ugly attempt to shut me up. Ain't gonna happen twice.
If that doesn't satisfy your curiosity bro awareness then I got nuttin fer ya.

Thanks, Drake. Really, you strike me as a great guy.

I've got guns. No one harasses me. Not that people aren't hateful. Christians are the worst, some of them. You must live in a rough neck of the woods. Or you're a wussy. I'm usually the harasser.

But I know. There's all kinds in the LSM local churches. There's even gays in the LSM local churches ... in the closet, of course. I talk to one from time to time.

So it's no surprise that an oddball LCer like yourself would be a long term member. I say oddball because you don't fit the typical mold of a burning brother in the local church. Burning brothers spend all their time building up the church, not on exLCer computer forums.

Unless you come to say "the LSM local churches are sorry, and repent of all their past wrong doings," and, "Please come back. We're better now."

But that can't be. You can't be doing that. Cuz you spend all your time defending the LSM local churches, and Witness Lee.

It's like to you, the group you've been loyal to for a long time has to be flawless, and it's leader has to be flawless too.

Apparently, you don't read your Bible. There's tons of flawed characters in the Bible.

Personally I think you'd do better if you'd just admit that the group you're devoting your life to is flawed ... and the dead leader of it was flawed.

And try accepting testimonies of those that were there as true. Otherwise you're just out here calling all of us liars.

Trapped · 07-10-2018, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Great story!

You would be amazed to know how many saints have done the same thing!

One such book was Joyce Meyer's book, Battlefield of the Mind.

I watched her on YouTube recently as it was one of the videos that showed up from my search for some help on how to forgive people who've stabbed you in the gut, know they did it, but who also don't care that they knifed you! It was helpful to hear relatable speaking.

Her book you suggested has like 86% 5-star reviews on Amazon, wow! I'll have to check it out, thanks for the tip.

Trapped · 10-03-2018, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Firstly, Lee's teaching that all the differences were "of a negative nature" is frankly wrong. The Son of Man commended each church positively and individually, knowing their positives quite well. Why would W. Lee downplay this fact? Every Pastor/Shepherd in the world knows the positive characteristics of his church, just ask him. W. Lee, however, could not acknowledge that each church had its own good works, pleasing to God. This corresponded with Lee's unending fellowship that only LSM could do anything good. "So, send your best people to the training."

Secondly, why would Lee continually stress that each LC must "not have any individual distinctiveness?" Since God has placed gifts in the body as it pleases Him, and each member has been gifted by the Lord uniquely, it only stand to reason that each church would have different strengths (and weaknesses too.) Why is this so threatening to W. Lee that he would create a teaching about member churches that is completely different from the rest of the body of Christ? What was his motive here? What were the results, or the fruit, of such teaching? How did W. Lee and LSM act to remove "any individual distinctiveness" between churches. These are fair questions to ask. We also have the advantage of decades of history to examine.

One notable action which Lee and LSM has taken is to remove and neutralize the gifted members of the body from ministering according to the anointing Spirit. The list of gifted and fruitful ministers around the globe, who once labored to establish churches, and have been expelled by Lee/LSM is just incredible. This forum is filled with their accounts. They were used by Lee, then were discarded. None of them ever parted peacefully. They were always nasty "divorces." Why would Lee/LSM do this? What was there motive? Just to remove "any individual distinctiveness" from the churches?

On the "no individual distinctiveness" thing that Lee's footnotes say.....just wanted to mention that I came across a paragraph in Lee's "A Timely Word" that states (underlining mine):

"It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same. This is impossible. Even twelve brothers within a local church cannot be the same in everything. If a local church has a burden to visit people in their homes for the preaching of the gospel, they should carry out this commission. They do not need to say that others do not preach the gospel in this way. If others do not feel to preach the gospel by visiting people in their homes, that is not your business. Do not talk about who is for this or who is for that. We should not talk in this way. We should not label ourselves or label others. If we want to practice a certain thing, we can do it. If others do not want to practice it, they have the liberty not to practice it. We should not question who is for a certain thing and who is not for a certain thing. This does not help you or anyone else. We all must endeavor to keep the oneness of the Spirit so that the Body of Christ can build up itself in love (Eph. 4:3, 16)."

So even Lee's own statements contradict his own statements!

Ohio · 10-04-2018, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

On the "no individual distinctiveness" thing that Lee's footnotes say.....just wanted to mention that I came across a paragraph in Lee's "A Timely Word" that states (underlining mine):

"It is altogether wise and profitable that we do not expect all the churches to be the same. This is impossible. Even twelve brothers within a local church cannot be the same in everything. If a local church has a burden to visit people in their homes for the preaching of the gospel, they should carry out this commission. They do not need to say that others do not preach the gospel in this way. If others do not feel to preach the gospel by visiting people in their homes, that is not your business. Do not talk about who is for this or who is for that. We should not talk in this way. We should not label ourselves or label others. If we want to practice a certain thing, we can do it. If others do not want to practice it, they have the liberty not to practice it. We should not question who is for a certain thing and who is not for a certain thing. This does not help you or anyone else. We all must endeavor to keep the oneness of the Spirit so that the Body of Christ can build up itself in love (Eph. 4:3, 16)."

So even Lee's own statements contradict his own statements!

Yes, exactly.

Years ago when sorting this all out, I concluded there was an "early-Lee" and a "Later-Lee." They regularly argued with each other.

aron · 02-13-2019, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The LCs are trying to grapple with a true demographic shift over the past 35 years, as their constituents keep growing less reflective of the "local" populations they've supposedly been representing.

Here's an excerpt from the recent (Feb 2019) newsletter of the Church in Sydney (Australia) affiliated with Titus Chu:

Quote:

Pray for the new believers (5 brothers: Yuan-Pei Zhao, Chao Ma, Lyon Yang, Jack Zhou and Joe Zhou as well as 16 sisters: Lu Gan, Lan-Xiu Zhang, Li-Fang Ge, Kelie Wei, Li-Yuan Xu, Jean Hu, MinFang Wu, XiuQing Chen, Heidi Li, Tracy Lin, Sophie, AnJie Lin, Han Huang, Ariana Chang, Feng-Lian Li and Miao-Lian Li.) May the Lord establish them in the church life and bless their growth in life.

And to show that this demographic constituency isn't a fluke, here's from their April 2018 bulletin:

Quote:

Pray for the new believers (7 brothers: Vincent Tai, YuMing Liang, Zylen Liang, Stephen, William, Yuan Liu and Yuan-Pei Zhao as well as 12 sisters: Vanessa Lu, Li Zhou, Lili Chen, Jenny Zhu, Yun-Yue Lin, Li-Qin Wu, Yun Zhu, Joies, Ariel Chen, Lu Gan, Lan-Xiu Zhang and Li-Fang Ge.) May the Lord establish them in the church life and bless their growth in life.

I don't see anything but Chinese names. Imagine if the "Church in Shenzhen" or the "Church in Guanzhou" had nothing but German names in their listed new members - might this possibly strike the casual reader as a bit odd? Especially since their raison-d'etre is localism? Or put differently, isn't this exactly what WN utterly rejected 85 or 90 years ago: non-local, non-representative, i.e. foreign, or alien-imposed Christian assemblies? Then what's happened with localism, here?

http://christiansinsydney.org/?p=2647

For those who can't pick up my drift (there are usually some) - I'm not pushing xenophobia, racism or reactionary pandering. I'm asking what's happened to the "local revival" concept of authentically native, really locally-based churches since its promotion in China nearly a century ago? It's completely gone, apparently. Vanished. Perhaps WL dropped it in the Pacific Ocean along with his other ''fallen religious concepts''. And if so, then what (if anything) got recovered in the Lord's recovery?

Weighingin · 02-13-2019, 08:43 PM

Is there a local church there affiliated with LSM or has the "ground" been lost?

aron · 02-14-2019, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weighingin

Is there a local church there affiliated with LSM or has the "ground" been lost?

I daresay there are also some LSM-affiliated believers in Sydney. But the very point of a local church has vanished, its ground. Its existence and identity are now tied to foreign affiliation, and foreign control. Isn't this what Watchman Nee decried 90 years ago? How can anyone be so blind as to not see this?

They go to the uni and tell students, "Oh, we're just Christians who love the Lord Jesus", and in the next breath they want to know who you're with - Cleveland Ohio or Anaheim California? What complete nonsense. The only ones who will swallow this are a few homesick Chinese. They may be foreign-controlled, but at least it's familiar culture.

But local ground? Please. Why continue the pretense? Isn't our confession and faith about "reality, reality, reality"?

Ohio · 02-14-2019, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I daresay there are also some LSM-affiliated believers in Sydney. But the very point of a local church has vanished, its ground. Its existence and identity are now tied to foreign affiliation, and foreign control. Isn't this what Watchman Nee decried 90 years ago? How can anyone be so blind as to not see this?

They go to the uni and tell students, "Oh, we're just Christians who love the Lord Jesus", and in the next breath they want to know who you're with - Cleveland Ohio or Anaheim California? What complete nonsense. The only ones who will swallow this are a few homesick Chinese. They may be foreign-controlled, but at least it's familiar culture.

But local ground? Please. Why continue the pretense? Isn't our confession and faith about "reality, reality, reality"?

I checked out that link looking for the usual LSM boilerplate, and eventually discovered they were secessionists holding a conference with Titus Chu.

Of course, this was the real reason LSM had to purge TC from their "little body." He has followers all over (Austral) Asia. After Lee died, saints on the streets were muttering "Nee, Lee, Chu."

Weighingin · 02-14-2019, 12:39 PM

I just was curious about their affiliation. There's more I could comment on about the ground, but that should be in another thread.

Regarding this thread, I have seen comments that the LCs are increasingly Asian, in the USA and even outside. This is due to the LC practices appealing to their culture.
I have observed both by my presence and by others' postings, especially of campus clubs on FB, that there are places that are predominantly Asian. This seems to be true in CA especially, with the YP and campus clubs. I have seen this too with other campus clubs in some cities or towns outside CA, those that have a school with high attendance.
But while there is a good number of foreign Chinese or Asian students, a
substantial number are ABCs, most of which are "church kids."

aron · 02-14-2019, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I just was curious about their affiliation. There's more I could comment on about the ground, but that should be in another thread.

Regarding this thread, I have seen comments that the LCs are increasingly Asian, in the USA and even outside. This is due to the LC practices appealing to their culture. I've observed both by my presence and by others' postings, especially of campus clubs on FB, that there are places that are predominantly Asian. This seems to be true in CA especially, with the YP and campus clubs. I have seen this too with other campus clubs in some cities or towns outside CA, those that have a school with high attendance. But while there is a good number of foreign Chinese or Asian students, a substantial number are ABCs, most of which are "church kids."

I don't know how many of the new Sydney [Titus Chu] Church Christians I listed are recent immigrants from China, and how many are Australian-born Chinese. But I think that Witness Lee's statement that China represented "virgin soil" for God's move and that by extension the Christian practice that he brought to the USA, thence to Europe, Africa and Australia was somehow "purified" or "recovered" or "restored" was just self-serving hogwash. He brought over fallen Chinese cultural practice, and that's why the list of new believers in the [TC-variant] Church in Sydney are all Chinese. They're okay with the idea of foreign domination, as long as it's THEIR foreign domination.

But which 'foreign devil' to submit to - Anaheim or Cleveland?

The Church in Sydney, whether its TC/Blendeds/DYL variant, is no more a local church than the Parish of the Lady of Our Way in North Sydney or St. Peter's Presbyterian Church. And if you look at the demographic that it appeals to, and fronts, it's perhaps less a reflection of the local populace than they are. So why call it a local church? (Besides that this is its only reason to exist, of course)

Ohio · 08-07-2019, 06:55 AM

This thread has offered numerous helpful insights into LC culture and thinking.

The following was posted on the Casteel' FB site which caught my attention:

Quote:

Part of the Chinese culture that is underlying the teachings of WL is the Communist concept of “constant revolution. “

That is why there are so many twists and turns. To keep the masses off balance and easier to control. So, Jo’s letter gives them an opportunity to tighten the control and further brainwash.

Following the leadership of both Lee in Anaheim and Chu in Cleveland was a never-ending series of "flows" or abrupt changes in direction, always mandated by headquarters. These were always unsettling to the church, and seemed to produce unending "wheel-spinning" with little progress.

It is unsettling, to say the least, to learn that this too was a communist practice.

Sons to Glory! · 08-07-2019, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This thread has offered numerous helpful insights into LC culture and thinking.

The following was posted on the Casteel' FB site which caught my attention:
Following the leadership of both Lee in Anaheim and Chu in Cleveland was a never-ending series of "flows" or abrupt changes in direction, always mandated by headquarters. These were always unsettling to the church, and seemed to produce unending "wheel-spinning" with little progress.

It is unsettling, to say the least, to learn that this too was a communist practice.

There is a management approach of sorts that is like that too. For instance, a new manager comes in and maybe doesn't know exactly what to do, but wants or is expected to do something big. So the manager just starts changing all kinds of things almost randomly. Nobody can figure out exactly what is going on in all the confusion so they have to look to the leader, because they are apparently the only one that knows what to do. Usually before anybody can figure out it was just a bunch of senseless "make work," the manager moves on or gets promoted, because they (again, apparently) got so much done! Of course, what really gets left in their wake is essentially chaos that the next leader has to deal with . . .

This, unfortunately, occurs far too often, especially among managers who are bent on making a name for themselves in their climb to the top.

Ohio · 08-07-2019, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

There is a management approach of sorts that is like that too. For instance, a new manager comes in and maybe doesn't know exactly what to do, but wants or is expected to do something big. So the manager just starts changing all kinds of things almost randomly. Nobody can figure out exactly what is going on in all the confusion so they have to look to the leader, because they are apparently the only one that knows what to do. Usually before anybody can figure out it was just a bunch of senseless "make work," the manager moves on or gets promoted, because they (again, apparently) got so much done! Of course, what really gets left in their wake is essentially chaos that the next leader has to deal with . . .

Reminds me of 1st grade at Catholic school. Those of us who were more studious and arrived early were given "bell work" to keep us busy until the bell rang.

TLFisher · 08-07-2019, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This thread has offered numerous helpful insights into LC culture and thinking.

The following was posted on the Casteel' FB site which caught my attention:
Following the leadership of both Lee in Anaheim and Chu in Cleveland was a never-ending series of "flows" or abrupt changes in direction, always mandated by headquarters. These were always unsettling to the church, and seemed to produce unending "wheel-spinning" with little progress.

It is unsettling, to say the least, to learn that this too was a communist practice.

I always did see a lot of communist tendencies in the local churches even at a young age. Specifically the de-emphasis of the individual.
Back to the FB posts of Jo Casteel, I was thinking about this thread while listening to "Special Fellowship Meeting With Former Trainees - A Graphical Analysis".

aron · 02-22-2020, 06:05 AM

Shinchonji Church with Chairman Lee Man-Hee

I noted a Korean church that got public attention in the recent Wuhan coronavirus outbreak.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-07-...-its-just-cult

Similarities with the LC:

1. The group believes its pastor whom they call the "Chairman" is the sent one from God who alone can correctly interpret the Bible.
2. By following this pastor exclusively, members are able to fulfill God's plan, as outlined by the Bible (and taught by the pastor, natch).
3.The pastor controls the church publishing house, and his church buys his books.* (conflict of interest?)
4. They're antagonistic towards fellow Christians, saying that any who question or disagree with them are persecuting them the same way Jesus was persecuted, and revealing a satanic source.
5. They recruit deceptively through seemingly generic "Bible training" centres, with nominal Christians as prey, only later revealing their affiliation, once the hooks are set.
6. Cult members are expected to orient their lives around devotion to the church. Interaction with and relation to God is strictly mediated by church leader and teaching. Family, job, society are hindrances, useful only as wealth-extraction resources and areas for recruitment.
7. Viewing images and videos of members in group setting, it's clearly about conforming to a high-pressure, high-control environment, where subsumed individuality is akin to "heaven" or "divine". Note, for example, the repetitive chanting, "Amen, amen" irrespective of what's said by group spokesperson.

This pattern of group action may not be 'Asian' per say, but I'm wondering why these cults do so well in Asian culture? I think of the LC of Nee/Lee/Chu/Dong/Blendeds, the Shinchonji with Chairman Lee Man-Hee, and Iglesia Ni Cristo of Felix Y Manalo and progeny. Each of them has striking parallels, with the charismatic founder leapfrogging traditional, historical, Christianity to create an ethnocentric pseudo-Christian personality devotion cult. I remember a current LC leader: "Can we ever honour our brother [Lee] too much?"

Each of these groups has blaring-klaxon "warning!" "warning!" signs, if one's willing to look. Yet they've done spectacularly well, nonetheless, with hundreds of thousands of indigenous adherents, and exported abroad with ethnic immigrants (and a few gullible locals). I wonder if a similar cultural bedrock lies in their substratum?

Let me put it another way: each of these groups claims to be the "One True Church" and fulfillment of Jesus' plan, through their anointed leader. Yet by that definition alone, two of them are frauds, heretical personality cults. Yet all these three groups have done well with their native constituencies - Chinese, Filipino, and Korean - nonetheless, by promoting absolute devotion and unquestioning obedience. Is there something about the culture itself that's resistant to critical self-examination? Is there some culturally-sourced innate desire for collective social cohesion that over-rides even the intrusion of objective reality itself? I remember the LC mantra - "don't think - it only produces confusion." To Western minds this looks alarming, but to the Asian mind this is the True Path of Light?

* "The Creation of Heaven and Earth", by Lee Man-Hee, for example. Publisher: Lee Man-Hee. (Hey - whaddaya know!) 566 pages.

5-star review on Google Books, by Am Klaus from Uganda. "People should really come to their senses and accept the truth instead of wanting to be told what they want to here like your going to get a job, a car ,a wife, a husband an many others. That is what the devil uses to hold people captive to do his will.

You can even see from statistics during Noah's time only eight people accepted to enter the Ark and during Jesus's First coming only 12 people so my brothers how sure are you that you recognise Jesus on his Second Coming, how sure are you that you won't be like the Pharisees in the First Coming of Jesus.

Guys lets get to our senses this is the end of age, the Bible says narrow is the gate that leads to Heaven and a few people find it if you and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many will enter through it (Mtt 7:13). So if you consider the believers world wide then the gate of heaven would be broad. Shinchonji is the real deal you just give it a shot because the Bible says Let us hear and discern for ourselves."

Freedom · 02-27-2020, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Let me put it another way: each of these groups claims to be the "One True Church" and fulfillment of Jesus' plan, through their anointed leader. Yet by that definition alone, two of them are frauds, heretical personality cults. Yet all these three groups have done well with their native constituencies - Chinese, Filipino, and Korean - nonetheless, by promoting absolute devotion and unquestioning obedience. Is there something about the culture itself that's resistant to critical self-examination? Is there some culturally-sourced innate desire for collective social cohesion that over-rides even the intrusion of objective reality itself? I remember the LC mantra - "don't think - it only produces confusion." To Western minds this looks alarming, but to the Asian mind this is the True Path of Light?

If culture is taken out of the equation, the commonality between these groups is that they all make an absurd claim, and somehow that claim gets a free pass. Add culture back into the equation and it becomes clear that these types of absurdities can only exist where there are totalitarian/authoritarian aspects to the culture.

When it comes to people like Nee/Lee, they saw the Western culture, and there is just so much variance, discourse, disagreement, etc., that it has an appearance of being somewhat chaotic. And maybe even to a fault. At heart, however, it's still a cultural issue. So if they wanted to be fair, they should have considered authoritarianism to be just as much of an issue as denominationalism.

OBW · 02-28-2020, 09:12 AM

It makes you wonder how the LC got a foothold in a culture steeped in "rugged individualism" and pulling oneself up "by the bootstraps." Somehow a bunch of people stepped out of the mundane of regular Christianity to become subservient to a non-western system.

Go figure.

aron · 08-17-2023, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

It makes you wonder how the LC got a foothold in a culture steeped in "rugged individualism" and pulling oneself up "by the bootstraps." Somehow a bunch of people stepped out of the mundane of regular Christianity to become subservient to a non-western system.

The non-western cultural system in question seems to value stability, and respect. In the western system of rugged individualism, it became a sort of right of passage to rebel against one's parents, to question authority. In other places, questioning authority is seen as unacceptable behaviour. Even today, you can't question Chairman Mao. Even if he's wrong, he's right. He's the Chairman.

What happened in the west, during the 1960s and 1970s is that a lot of people rejected the old system, largely Protestant but also substantially Catholic (Kennedy was a Catholic but electable because still Christian), and accepted "new" ideas. The so-called Jesus Movement, for example - a lot of nontraditional churches besides the local church flourished in that era. Remember all the local church songs - "new, new, new, your life is so new"? That word was used for a reason. It was designed to separate us from the supposedly old. But then it was used to separate the Christians from each other. We were new, they were old. Why? Because I said so.

But what was the new system we were given? One that didn't respect human rights, or human dignity. Public shaming became a form of control, only labeled as training and perfecting. I saw WL dress down TC in public over the New Way. "I am ashamed" said TC, for failing to fully implement the New Way. The collective was valued over the individual, who was now become disposable. The rule of law was subsumed by personal obedience.

Our old system was quite free, but unfortunately it was too free, and we gave freedom to someone who didn't want us to be free, and then we became subjects in a vassal state. "Restrictions" became the new norm. But we should have restricted Lee. Look at his sons - how much restrictions did they have? The entire system was designed to give them freedom, at others' expense.

aron · 08-17-2023, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Our old system was quite free, but unfortunately it was too free, and we gave freedom to someone who didn't want us to be free, and then we became subjects in a vassal state.

Doesn't have to be non-western, of course. Cuba, Iran, and North Korea are not "free" in the broad sense that I used, and only one of them might fall under the "Asian Mind" of the thread's title. But a culture steeped in conformity might be more predisposed to the church of Witness Lee. It's probably not coincidental that local church membership in western areas like Australia is mostly Chinese with only a smattering of Caucasians.

But if the Chinese come to America, they should respect American or western culture, and many do. I read the transcript where Gerald Chan told Harvard graduates to "debate and discuss", and come up with novel ideas to try out. I only ask that Gerald Chan would say the same thing in the supposedly local church in Boston or Cambridge.

And local church members in Boston and Cambridge and elsewhere should gladly accept the challenge to dare to think, to read widely and to formulate ideas. "Hypothesize and postulate" was Chan's phrase. I agree.

For example, how do we know that "God's economy" as taught by Paul wasn't the theme of "don't store up wealth for yourself on earth, where moth and rust consume, and thieves break through and steal, but rather give to the poor, and you will be rich in heaven"? You can see that this was one of Jesus' core teachings, and that Paul also devotes two whole chapters to this theme, 2 Corinthians 8 and 9. Where does Paul devote two consecutive chapters on masticating the processed and consummated Triune God to become God in life and nature (but not the Godhead)?

And it's the broad charge stressed in Galatians 2:10, which Paul says that he's eager to do. If that wasn't God's economy, why was he so eager?

And then Paul and Barnabas who "completed this service" or "fulfilled this ministry" in Acts 12 in Jerusalem. What were they doing? "And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark." (12:25 KJV). The answer is in chapter 11. "Then the disciples, every man according to his ability, determined to send relief unto the brethren which dwelt in Judaea: Which also they did, and sent it to the elders by the hands of Barnabas and Saul." (vv. 29, 30). Once you start to look, you see a consistent theme. It is better to give than to receive - those were Paul's final words to the elders in Ephesus (Acts 20:35) This is God's economy (or so I postulate).

If your only answer is, "No, that's not what WL taught", then I challenge you to consider the words of Gerald Chan. The topic deserves discussion, critical reflection, not reflexive indoctrination. If you are going to give your life to follow something, it deserves critical examination. Jesus withstood death; don't we think our ideas can withstand the light of critical reflection? If they endure, so much the better. But if we're afraid of examination, what does that suggest about our ideas?

Nell · 08-17-2023, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

...
Jesus withstood death;

Aron,

What do you mean? I understand this is not the main point of your post but it's important.

I have never heard such a thing...withstanding death. Maybe that's not what you meant. Jesus didn't "withstand death". He died. In every sense of the word, Jesus died. He was buried. Then He rose again.

Nell

aron · 08-17-2023, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Aron,

What do you mean? I understand this is not the main point of your post but it's important.

I have never heard such a thing...withstanding death. Maybe that's not what you meant. Jesus didn't "withstand death". He died. In every sense of the word, Jesus died. He was buried. Then He rose again.

Nell

That's my phrasing, sorry if it's disconcerting. I meant, his life was able to undergo the trial of death, and continue. The rest of us, when we die, that's it. No resurrection. We avoid death, that's how we survive. We are death-avoidance machines, because once we're gone, that's it.

Jesus underwent the human death on our behalf, but because of the sinless state he rose again. Therefore, my thought is that neither you nor I can withstand death. Jesus could. Death takes us, in the end, and holds us fast. Death couldn't take him, ultimately. It tried, but he came out.

I also reference the idea of Hades. "The gates of Hades cannot withstand the builded church" per Jesus. In my mind, that means to stop it, to resist it. The gates of Hades (holding power of death) can't stop the message from moving in, and taking humanity back out. As believers, our gospel message can penetrate the holding power of Hades, and rescue humanity through the impartation of repentance and faith.

So it's in my mind a poetic turn of phrase. But I think the imagery aligns with teaching in the NT, and onward. Sort of like a tidal wave - it sweeps everything in its path. But the hero braces his legs, bows his head, and stands, eventually the wave recedes and he's still there. The hero got wet like everyone else. But he didn't get swept away. He withstood the wave.

ACuriousFellow · 08-17-2023, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The topic deserves discussion, critical reflection, not reflexive indoctrination. If you are going to give your life to follow something, it deserves critical examination. Jesus withstood death; don't we think our ideas can withstand the light of critical reflection? If they endure, so much the better. But if we're afraid of examination, what does that suggest about our ideas?

While many may think it suggests that the ideas are false, we must also bear in mind that people can have the right ideas and not have the confidence or patience to defend them. At times, that can be even more tragic. Although I do realize that in the context of The Lord's Recovery, it is not simply that they lack confidence or patience, but rather that they actively snuff out any such attempts to examine these things.

Love the imagery of Jesus withstanding death, by the way. In his body, he died quite thoroughly, but in truth he put death and sin to shame and rose up high above them in power and greatness. They threw all they had at him and he withstood the trials and temptations. No one can topple the Lord's Annointed.

aron · 08-18-2023, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

No one can topple the Lord's Anointed.

Amen. He faced death. Now, we face Him.

TLFisher · 08-18-2023, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The only "truth" that mattered was,

"If you're not here for brother Lee and his ministry, you might as well not be here."
True quote, but paraphrased.

ACuriousFellow · 08-19-2023, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

"If you're not here for brother Lee and his ministry, you might as well not be here."
True quote, but paraphrased.

Conversely, many not only believe you should leave if you aren't there for Lee's ministry but also that there is no other ministry. There's nothing else out there.

(Timestamp ~ 1:36:46) If it’s attacking the Ministry, I wanna read the Ministry even more! *amen* Because wha-what else, wh-what’s being offered to me as an alternative? What else am I gonna do? Where el- where else am I gonna go? What’s my direction? If you take away the church life, if you take away, you know, being in the process of being formed as, as the army and building up the wall, what am I gonna do with my life? There’s no purpose in my life. I have found the purpose in my life *amen* And I’m not going to be deterred from this purpose because someone got offended.

A quote from a brother in The Lord's Recovery who was commenting on Jo Casteel's letter during the "Special Fellowship at the 2019 July Semiannual Training." .

I feel that while as a whole many Asian cultures lean more towards the community over the individual as opposed to Western culture which values the individual over the community, there is still very much a lot of "group think" that can be found in both cultures. For instance, the "group think" of Asian cultures is that the community is more valuable than the individual, and if you stand against that you are generally shunned or ignored. Conversely, in Western culture the group think is that the individual matters more than the community, and if you stand against that you are usually ignored or shunned. When one side looks at the other, they may be led to believe that communities have no value in the West and that the individual has no value in the East.

This is interesting food for thought to me.

Ohio · 08-19-2023, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Conversely, many not only believe you should leave if you aren't there for Lee's ministry but also that there is no other ministry. There's nothing else out there.

[I](Timestamp ~ 1:36:46) If it’s attacking the Ministry, I wanna read the Ministry even more! *amen* Because wha-what else, wh-what’s being offered to me as an alternative? What else am I gonna do? Where el- where else am I gonna go? What’s my direction? If you take away the church life, if you take away, you know, being in the process of being formed as, as the army and building up the wall, what am I gonna do with my life? There’s no purpose in my life. I have found the purpose in my life *amen* And I’m not going to be deterred from this purpose because someone got offended.[/I]

This is interesting food for thought to me.

This is called, “The Prison of Two Ideas.”

Two extremes are presented continually, as if no other option can possible exist. Both extremes are unhealthy and unscriptural. They’re “Lee only Lee” and “life without God or a Church life.”

It basically hard-wires your brain cells. It keeps you enslaved in their Prison. The victims know of no other alternatives. Thus, the real tragedy occurs far too often - those who leave, leave also their faith, their connections with anything Christian.

Nell · 08-19-2023, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is called, “The Prison of Two Ideas.”

Two extremes are presented continually, as if no other option can possible exist. Both extremes are unhealthy and unscriptural. They’re “Lee only Lee” and “life without God or a Church life.”

It basically hard-wires your brain cells. It keeps you enslaved in their Prison. The victims know of no other alternatives. Thus, the real tragedy occurs far too often - those who leave, leave also their faith, their connections with anything Christian.

This prison is also a doctrine of demons. There can be no other source of such a sinister practice.

Nell

ACuriousFellow · 08-19-2023, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

This prison is also a doctrine of demons. There can be no other source of such a sinister practice.

Nell

There's a brother I still fellowship with who meets with The Recovery and knows my story and why I left. One brother still in The Recovery apparently commented something along the lines of "I hate it when people turn away from the Lord like A Curious Fellow did." My friend who is still in the Recovery knows I am still for the Lord, so he thought that guy was an idiot. Surprisingly, a third brother who was part of the conversation and very much supports The Lord's Recovery rebuked the other brother for speaking like that about me.

So it seems that, as with many other false teachings of Lee, not everyone ascribes to the "all or nothing" mentality that Lee, the Blendeds, and the Co-workers would like to instill in everyone.

aron · 08-20-2023, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

This is interesting food for thought to me.

CuriousFellow, thanks for the willingness to consider such topics. Many of us are "hard wired" in Ohio's term to accept what we're told is true, and to reflexively recoil from anything not according to the wiring. Witness Lee's trick was to re-wire us, where everything he gave us was "new" and we "simply" or "just" did what we were taught. "It's so simple, and easy, our worries flee away" - remember that? (from the Grey Song Book, a principal indoctrination tool.https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/ns/98)

The NT gospels show Jesus the Nazarene as the promised Messiah, aka Son of David/Son of Man, whose claim is proved by personal righteousness and obedience to the Father as manifested by good works and miraculous signs, and by fulfilled scriptural prophecy, especially the suffering atonement, and subsequent resurrection and glory. Now, in ascension, he's to rule both Israel and the nations. Then, the Acts and Epistles detail where and how the nations fit into this: the glorified Messiah is to be King of Kings, and all nations will walk in his light.

This was presaged or typified by a son of David named Solomon, who received foreign tribute, and whose reign was a light to the world. The penultimate fulfillment would be in the kngdom of the risen Messiah. The last 2 chapters of John's Revelation point to this (some think the 'nations' of Rev 21:24 aren't Christian, but unbelievers who help Christians [and Jews] in tribulation. But why would 'good works' suffice during a 3 year period, when they don't at any other time?)

My point is that in both OT and NT, the distinction between 'Israel' and 'the nations' is never effaced. They remain distinct, but in the NT are joined in Christ. See Paul's word in Ephesians 2:11-22. The two have become one: one shared belief set, one new man, one spiritual household, one body in Christ, composed of both 'nations' and 'Israel'. It's like I have 2 distinct legs, a right leg and a left leg, but they're joined in cooperation for balance and locomotion. The enmity is gone, and they function together. The nations and Israel are no longer antagonistically separate, but joined together in Christ Jesus.

(Paul's role in this organic structure was 'apostle to the nations', just like Peter was to the Jews [see, e. g., Gal 2:2-8]. Any concept of chains of sequential apostleship continuing ad infinitum has no scriptural basis. When Judas left another was chosen, to complete the number. But when James the brother of John died, no additional apostle was chosen. And in the introductions to James' and Jude's epistles, they were termed "brother" and/or "slave of God" and not apostle. All subsequent and/or current claims of apostleship have been and are fraudulent.)

In this conceptual structure, there's room for an 'Asian mind' and a 'Western mind', as well as a 'Sub-Saharan Mind', an 'Arab/Semitic mind', a 'Native American mind', and so forth. Each nation or tribe or tongue has its own peculiarities, which can be freely expressed in constituent local assemblies. The common denominator is the belief in God's Lord and Christ, resurrected from the dead, and now ruling our hearts from his throne in glory (or similar terms - I'm expressing what seems common).

In Acts 1:6 they asked, if the resurrected Messiah were now restoring the kingdom to Israel? If God had effaced the distinctiveness of the Jewish nation from His plan, Jesus would have refuted this reference in his reply. But rather, he said the times weren't presently evident, but first the Paraclete must come, and good news (Gk: 'gospel') must go to the uttermost part of the earth, i.e. the nations. That was where Paul came into God's plan, as the book of Acts unfolded.

The irony of what's happened in the local church/Lord's recovery/little flock movements of Nee and Lee, is that as the gospel of Jesus Christ reached China, it did so hand-in-glove with western imperialism. So the Boxer Rebellion and the indigenous Christian work of Watchman Nee were reactions to that imposition of foreign values. But 20th century local churches affiliated with Witness Lee were subject to a form of imposition of Asian values. I cannot overstress that Chinese cultural values aren't inferior to any other, but that they shouldn't be imposed as the new standard on non-Asians. That's also cultural imperialism, and is a perversion of the gospel, just as surely as a Roman Catholic cathedral rising in Peking in the 17th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathed...ption,_Beijing

ACuriousFellow · 08-20-2023, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

CuriousFellow, thanks for the willingness to consider such topics. Many of us are "hard wired" in Ohio's term to accept what we're told is true, and to reflexively recoil from anything not according to the wiring. Witness Lee's trick was to re-wire us, where everything he gave us was "new" and we "simply" or "just" did what we were taught. "It's so simple, and easy, our worries flee away" - remember that? (from the Grey Song Book, a principal indoctrination tool.https://www.hymnal.net/en/hymn/ns/98)

The NT gospels show Jesus the Nazarene as the promised Messiah, aka Son of David/Son of Man, whose claim is proved by personal righteousness and obedience to the Father as manifested by good works and miraculous signs, and by fulfilled scriptural prophecy, especially the suffering atonement, and subsequent resurrection and glory. Now, in ascension, he's to rule both Israel and the nations. Then, the Acts and Epistles detail where and how the nations fit into this: the glorified Messiah is to be King of Kings, and all nations will walk in his light.

...

The irony of what's happened in the local church/Lord's recovery/little flock movements of Nee and Lee, is that as the gospel of Jesus Christ reached China, it did so hand-in-glove with western imperialism. So the Boxer Rebellion and the indigenous Christian work of Watchman Nee were reactions to that imposition of foreign values. But the 20th century local churches affiliated with Witness Lee were subject to a form of imposition of Asian values. I cannot overstress that Chinese cultural values aren't inferior to any other, but rather my point is that they shouldn't be imposed on non-Asians. That is also cultural imperialism, and is a perversion of the gospel, just as surely as a Roman Catholic cathedral rising in Peking in the 17th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathed...ption,_Beijing

Thank you for your exposition, Aaron. I've always viewed cultural distinctions as good in moderation. So long as they do not contradict the gospel and the truths in scriptures, let them live as they are. The Greeks and Jews were entirely different, yet Paul urged them to be one in Christ. This was not done by abandoning their culture, but by finding the common ground to fellowship together which was Christ. You wanna eat all sorts of food? Go for it, and give thanks to God. You want to have the restricted Kosher diet? Go for it, and give thanks to God. You don't want to follow the feasts of Israel? Go for it, and give thanks to God. You want to keep the festivals and whatnot? Go for it, and give thanks to God. They had to avoid the extremes of their culture. So long as the Greeks were not partaking of idol worship and the Jews were not trying to use the law to gain righteousness, they were ok in Christ. There were other things on that list, I'm sure.

It is not different with the other cultures you mentioned. There are cultural norms and practices that are ok, but we are not to enforce them on others. There are cultural norms and practices that are not ok, and we must be mindful to remove them from our lives. It's a work in progress that takes a lifetime. It came to us from countless generations that preceded us and it affects the generations that come after us. We must deal with it in our daily lives, balancing our relationship to our society and our relationship with the church and with God.

And what a beautiful thing it is when the Lord brings the nations together. They would not be called "the nations" if they were not still clearly distinct. The believers are not carbon copies of one another, but rather distinct parts that form an effective whole like the different parts of a body. While this includes the variety of spiritual gifts, it also includes one's own personality and culture.

That's my $2, anyhow.

aron · 08-20-2023, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I've always viewed cultural distinctions as good in moderation. So long as they do not contradict the gospel and the truths in scriptures, let them live as they are. The Greeks and Jews were entirely different, yet Paul urged them to be one in Christ. This was not done by abandoning their culture, but by finding the common ground to fellowship together which was Christ.

I think you've got my argument in a nutshell. The RecV footnote saying that "every local church must be absolutely identical with no distinctions whatever" would have been as offensive to the Spirit of grace if coming from a British or German, as it was when coming from a Chinese. It's a culturally-mediated attempt at imposition, where none should exist.

Ohio · 08-20-2023, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I think you've got my argument in a nutshell. The RecV footnote saying that "every local church must be absolutely identical with no distinctions whatever" would have been as offensive to the Spirit of grace if coming from a British or German, as it was when coming from a Chinese. It's a culturally-mediated attempt at imposition, where none should exist.

Lee took Paul’s word about teaching the same in every church (1 Cor 4.17) to such extreme. Like the Catholic missal I grew up with, one could visit any LC on the 2nd Sunday of August and expect to cover the same verses and hear the same message from the HWFMR. To Lee and the Blendeds, that was the glorious “oneness of the body.”

Spiritually speaking, that was fabricated nonsense, fake oneness, yet so difficult for childish Christians to discern. It’s human made, man-pleasing, work of fallen men, who have robbed and replaced the Head of the body operating thru healthy shepherd elders.

Gubei · 08-28-2023, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

When making generalizations about the "Asian mind' how do we avoid ethnic stereotypes rather than realistic and authentic depictions of actual cultures, customs and behaviors?

To my best knowledge, Professor Hofstede’s extensive research is quite famous. For example, China is low in score, vs. US in terms of individualism. (China 20 vs US 91). Most of top MBAs are teaching this to their students for mulinational biz operation. check here -> https://www.hofstede-insights.com/co...Cunited+states

I don’t know how much this result influenced WL’s putting together his teaching on “being identical” of the LCs, but I can say that some portion was operative.

FYI, I’m a native born Korean who speak Korean, English, Chinese, and Japanese with a lot of experience of living or traveling Asia, plus extensive study of ancient and middle-age Chinese philosopies.

Gubei · 08-29-2023, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

My point is that perhaps WL wasn't necessarily a snake oil salesman, as much as he was trying to fulfill his "church" mandate. The Living Stream Ministry, the full-time training, all of that came out of the requirements for the collective. WL's cultural predisposition wasn't the individual looking for the Spirit to guide him home. Instead his primary "vision" was the collective, and so he worked for the collective, and was willing to lie, to cover-up, to manipulate people, and to lift himself above the flock. Because he felt that was what the collective needed to go forward. All this was required for "good order in the church." So that was where the Deputy God teaching came from, and the idea of unquestioning obedience to the one in front of you.

The Body of Christ is a kind of symbol or metaphor (or illustration, type etc...) in the Bible, meaning the expression is not a statement describing Church as an physical entity. We can pay attentin to the fact that the seven gold lampstands in Rev. is a kind of symbol of churches. WL has made this point clear by saying that "The churches, sygnified by the seven golden lampstands,..." in his footnote of Rev. 1:20
But, when we comes to the matter of the Body of Christ, WL's teaching on it gives us the impression that he is describing the Body of Christ not as a symbol but as a physical entity. In the footnote of Eph 1:23, he says the Body of Christ is.... an organism. If I had been in the position of him in the matter of putting together footnotes of the bible, I would have said like this... "the Body of Christ is a symbolic expression of an organism, putting emphasis on the functioning of church members for the expression of Chris...", but interestingly, WL seems to stick to the direct statements by just using the copula "is".
Additionally, even though WL says the head of the Body of Christ is Christ, sometimes he also says there is such members as a Seer (Watchman Nee), deputy authority, promient apostles..., which leads us to the conjecture that the Head, the Christ, can be seen through this "special" brothers. We know the resultant outcome. "Just follow those brothers, not asking back or suspecting" etc.
To my best knowledge, this kind of sad predecament has been warned by a famous theoloian. Søren Kierkegaard. He emphasized the single individual before God. You can check his teaching here -> http://sorenkierkegaard.org/single-individual.html
I opine that "Being collective" has been over-praised among the LCs, and part of it was due to Asian mind of WL and other Asian brothers, I do not know how much they contribute to this result, though.

08-30-2023, 07:07 AM

There is many misconceptions and outright contradictions in the Local church movement and the ministry of Lee. In my personal experience, I believe that the leadership of this group, and those that created these concepts out of thin air, have more to do with trying to reinvent the control mechanisms of the church in the book of Acts, and not anything that that church practiced or portrayed. This is on display every single day by those who are at the top of the food chain, and even those who blindly follow those men.

I wish I had time to write up a rebuttal to every single thing that I was taught in LC regarding this matter, but I don’t have billionaires funding my existence and daily life operation, or convinced thousands of people that only my writings are legit and they should be only reading my books. Opps, who would want that anyway! It would totally “inflate myself” and be divisive to even consider. Time to go to work and make a living somehow, and leave some things to the Lord to expose, or I will probably “be a person subject to being misled into serious errors.” It also might be my western concepts that I’ve developed that get in a way of proper understanding and special enlightenments that were only available to “superior bros”. One must always remember that Nee has diagnosed and issued a final cause and affect regarding us mortal beings trying to make sense of anything, by saying,

Quote:

”….the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought.”

https://shepherdingwords.com/reading...blical-notion/

WitnessALot · 08-30-2023, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

To my best knowledge, Professor Hofstede’s extensive research is quite famous. For example, China is low in score, vs. US in terms of individualism. (China 20 vs US 91). Most of top MBAs are teaching this to their students for mulinational biz operation. check here -> https://www.hofstede-insights.com/co...Cunited+states

I don’t know how much this result influenced WL’s putting together his teaching on “being identical” of the LCs, but I can say that some portion was operative.

FYI, I’m a native born Korean who speak Korean, English, Chinese, and Japanese with a lot of experience of living or traveling Asia, plus extensive study of ancient and middle-age Chinese philosopies.

I remember that Lee would sometimes say that other Christians had accused him of mixing Buddhist "flavor" in with his Christian teachings, or something like that. Of course, he strongly rejected that notion. Gubei, do you think there are elements of Chinese philosophy in Nee's or Lee's teachings?

One possible example that comes to my mind is when Nee said that a younger brother should always follow and respect an older brother -- even if the age difference was only a few months. As I remember it, he asserted this with no Biblical basis, but acted like it was so important.

WitnessALot · 08-30-2023, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

The Body of Christ is a kind of symbol or metaphor (or illustration, type etc...) in the Bible, meaning the expression is not a statement describing Church as an physical entity. We can pay attentin to the fact that the seven gold lampstands in Rev. is a kind of symbol of churches. WL has made this point clear by saying that "The churches, sygnified by the seven golden lampstands,..." in his footnote of Rev. 1:20
But, when we comes to the matter of the Body of Christ, WL's teaching on it gives us the impression that he is describing the Body of Christ not as a symbol but as a physical entity. In the footnote of Eph 1:23, he says the Body of Christ is.... an organism. If I had been in the position of him in the matter of putting together footnotes of the bible, I would have said like this... "the Body of Christ is a symbolic expression of an organism, putting emphasis on the functioning of church members for the expression of Chris...", but interestingly, WL seems to stick to the direct statements by just using the copula "is".
Additionally, even though WL says the head of the Body of Christ is Christ, sometimes he also says there is such members as a Seer (Watchman Nee), deputy authority, promient apostles..., which leads us to the conjecture that the Head, the Christ, can be seen through this "special" brothers. We know the resultant outcome. "Just follow those brothers, not asking back or suspecting" etc.
To my best knowledge, this kind of sad predecament has been warned by a famous theoloian. Søren Kierkegaard. He emphasized the single individual before God. You can check his teaching here -> http://sorenkierkegaard.org/single-individual.html
I opine that "Being collective" has been over-praised among the LCs, and part of it was due to Asian mind of WL and other Asian brothers, I do not know how much they contribute to this result, though.

So the truth competes with the need for social acceptance (i.e., approval from the crowd). When we were following Witness Lee, hanging on his every word, it wasn't really about a search for the truth; rather, it was about social acceptance within a highly particular social context. It was about holding on to all the benefits (community, belonging, purpose, etc.) that we derived from such social acceptance.

WitnessALot · 08-30-2023, 09:16 PM

P.S. This may have been addressed elsewhere in this thread, but I think ancestor worship is another aspect of Asian culture that was brought into LC culture. I remember listening to older brothers speaking in a training about what they will "say to Witness Lee" when they "see him again in that day." It was really like they were talking about God, yet they were talking about Witness Lee.

aron · 08-31-2023, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

The Body of Christ is a kind of symbol or metaphor (or illustration, type etc...) in the Bible, meaning the expression is not a statement describing Church as an physical entity.

There may have been a number of different levels of thought which were already competing (or running in tandem) by the NT era. The clearest sign of a number of interpretive grids in the 1st century CE is found in the NT itself, where the Sadducees don't believe in resurrection (neither angel nor spirit) but the Pharisees do. Also, the desert groups like Essenes/Theraputae/Qumran were antagonistically apart from both Jerusalem sects. Many scholars see Qumran influence on the Baptist, and several of Jesus' Galilean disciples were first with John (John 1:35)

So "the church which is the Body of Christ" may not have had a monolithic and universal mental construct behind it, either in penning or in its initial reception. At the very least, "the church which is in his/their house" was one common interpretation, which we'd today call a "meeting" or "gathering" or "assembly", versus a permanent standing body which superseded space and time. See, e. g., Philemon 1:2; 1 Cor 16:19; Rom 16:5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

Additionally, even though WL says the head of the Body of Christ is Christ, sometimes he also says there is such members as a Seer (Watchman Nee), deputy authority, prominent apostles..., which leads us to the conjecture that the Head, the Christ, can be seen through this "special" brothers. We know the resultant outcome.

Gubei,

I appreciated your reference to Kirkegaard. Lost in the oft-misplaced fixation on "church" is the individual. I especially appreciated the line, "The God-relationship is worked out in the inner man." And I'd argue that nearly the entire NT scriptural use of OT referents has this singular point, that the individual in question is Jesus Christ. He is the Last Adam. He is the Lamb of God. He is the Good Shepherd, who lays down His life. He is the Son of David. He said, "All these things were concerning me". In this context the "ekklesia" is in some very real sense an extension of that One Individual, his obedience, his suffering, his glory. And for anyone in the collective to see anything other than that One Individual is to take one's eyes off of Salvation itself. The NT usage of OT text established this. The "I" of scripture is Christ. No Nee, Lee, Darby, Luther, or Paul can be ever conflated with the Head. I never see Paul setting up Timothy (or anyone else) to be his continuation.

No, to me the text is clear: "I (Christ) will sing praises to You (the Father) in the midst of the 'ekklesia'". As soon as we think of "deputy" God we're already taken from safety. The collective has been taken over by the wrong individual. The 'leader' is no more Christ but a usurper.

Now, lest our readers think that I'm some radical bomb-throwing anarchist wanting to burn down 2,000 year of Christian history, I remind them of Jesus' words: love one another. The individual is freed from self by 1) taking Jesus Christ as his/her person, and 2) by loving the individual next to you. Notice that Christ never teaches, "Love God with your whole soul and strength, and love the church". No, he teaches, "love the individual person next to you." This is the balance that frees one from loving some mythical pie-in-the-sky "Christ" while despising all else.

Much more to say (of course), but my posts are too long, anyway. Also, they're too confident in 'tone' or 'voice'. Please understand that I'm just thinking aloud. Nothing is "truth" to be argued over.

aron · 08-31-2023, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Notice that Christ never teaches, "Love God with your whole soul and strength, and love the church". No, he says, "love the individual person next to you." This is the balance that frees one from loving some mythical pie-in-the-sky "Christ" while despising all else.

I'm going to continue this, using another referent as my touchpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WitnessALot

So the truth competes with the need for social acceptance (i.e., approval from the crowd). When we were following Witness Lee, hanging on his every word, it wasn't really about a search for the truth; rather, it was about social acceptance within a highly particular social context. It was about holding on to all the benefits (community, belonging, purpose, etc.) that we derived from such social acceptance.

In my case, I grew up on the frontier. We wrestled with the land to survive. Nobody was there to save you, it was you and that fencepost (and then the next, and the next). My parents faced the frontier, mostly alone, they survived and their survival meant that I got to wrestle with a fencepost, too. But the collective was always there - I speak English because I'm an extension of the English-speaking family. Same with culture, including religion - I got brought into a Baptist church at a young and impressionable age, and was told that the flames of hell were licking at my feet, unless I repented and believed. That fire was not my rugged individual creation, quite the contrary.

Kierkegaard's quote shows that this individual/collective issue isn't limited to the Asian Mind, but I'd argue that in the Little Flock/LC it took a decidedly Asian cast. Watchman Nee took the Western "individualistic" aspect as his fulcrum to reject the West on its own terms. He, like Luther rejecting the Catholics, was free to reject the Lutherans (and Baptists and Methodists), and create a local assembly more to his own tastes. He's thus widely attributed to the rise of indigenous Christianity in China. But the irony is that 100 years later, his exported variants are nothing resembling indigenous or 'local' Christianity - they're Chinese-flavored assemblies! The one who threw off the imperialist yoke became the imperialist.

As an example, to publicly criticize Mao Zedong in PRC today is to court complete social, political, and economic isolation and ostracism. It's socially unthinkable, even 50 years after Mao's death. Likewise, criticizing the "deputy God" in the LC was (and remains) akin to "rebellion against God". Even, I stress, when the "deputy God" had children who were molesting church members and taking their money. But in a western-flavored personality cult, it's not necessarily so. The International (nee Boston) Churches of Christ, formed by evangelist Kip McKean, had similar evidences of Lee-ish mind-control, except when the McKean children strayed from the group, the leader was removed, per the idea that "all scripture is to be applied to all members", even (!!) the Group Leader.

And that, to circle back to Kirkegaard, and WitnessALot above, is the danger: the "truth" of the collective can be entirely against the purposes of God, but we rush pell-mell forward, anyways. The only real difference between the ICOC and the LC is that the first strayed from God in a Western-leaning individualist manner, but the latter took on a decidedly Asian turn.

Ohio · 08-31-2023, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

No, to me the text is clear: "I (Christ) will sing praises to You (the Father) in the midst of the 'ekklesia'". As soon as we think of "deputy" God we're already taken from safety. The collective has been taken over by the wrong individual. The 'leader' is no more Christ but a usurper.

Now, lest our readers think that I'm some radical bomb-throwing anarchist wanting to burn down 2,000 year of Christian history, I remind them of Jesus' words: love one another. The individual is freed from self by 1) taking Jesus Christ as his/her person, and 2) by loving the individual next to you. Notice that Christ never teaches, "Love God with your whole soul and strength, and love the church". No, he teaches, "love the individual person next to you." This is the balance that frees one from loving some mythical pie-in-the-sky "Christ" while despising all else.

Great Points! And I'll add that whenever the Bible speaks of "one body with many members," (See e.g. Paul's letter First Corinthians) it's all about respecting the local gathering and loving the member next to you. Read the Bible! It was never about "being one with the ministry" or some global collective of LC's sans the rest of God's children.

And just the very thought of some intermediate "Deputy God" takes us back to the Babylonian Nimrod of Genesis 10 and his church age reincarnation as "The Pope," the supposed "Vicar" of Christ. That fake title can be changed, rebranded, and marketed to the Christian public as "new and improved," but the corrupted reality behind the curtain never changes. The Recovery MOTA in principle is no different from the Roman Pope, the Exclusive Brethren Oracle, the Mormon Prophet, etc.

Apostle Paul made it perfectly clear in Acts 20.30 that there will always be those who lust to be first, speaking distorted things, and drawing God's children, not to His Son, but to themselves. Their perverted teachings must never be construed as God's Word.

WitnessALot · 08-31-2023, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Kierkegaard's quote shows that this individual/collective issue isn't limited to the Asian Mind, but I'd argue that in the Little Flock/LC it took a decidedly Asian cast. Watchman Nee took the Western "individualistic" aspect as his fulcrum to reject the West on its own terms. He, like Luther rejecting the Catholics, was free to reject the Lutherans (and Baptists and Methodists), and create a local assembly more to his own tastes. He's thus widely attributed to the rise of indigenous Christianity in China. But the irony is that 100 years later, his exported variants are nothing resembling indigenous or 'local' Christianity - they're Chinese-flavored assemblies! The one who threw off the imperialist yoke became the imperialist.

The above paragraph really encapsulates it, aron. It's just Animal Farm all over again, isn't it?

Gubei · 08-31-2023, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WitnessALot

Gubei, do you think there are elements of Chinese philosophy in Nee's or Lee's teachings?

WitnessAlot,

1) Buddhist flavor of WL’s teachings

WL doesn’t seem to have been exposed to the doctrines of Buddhist philosophies. I’ve read/listened to most of his works, and he sometimes talked about the Confucian teachings but not Buddhist teachings. The reason someone criticizes him of the similarity of his teaching with Buddhist is that Buddhist teachings, especially those of Mahayana Buddhism, are quite similar to some aspects of the NT teachings. Some new religions’ leaders or Theosophy leaders have claimed that Jesus was under the teachings of ancient India or Buddhism, but to my best knowledge, on the contrary, the Greek philosophies and/or Christian teachings might have been brought to Asia through the conquest activities of Alexander the Great. Currently, many people believe that the canons of Mahayana Buddhism were initiated in Bactria, a central Asia city, where Alexander the Great established his base for East conquest.
In addition, Taoist teachings are also very similar to the organic aspect of growth of divine life within us. Xingmingguizhi(性命圭旨) is a very famous ancient Taoist book, where the author claims that we should learn and practice how to raise up/breed the embryo of truth or little Buddha within us.

And calling upon the name of the Lord is seen in the OT and NT. BTW, one of middle age Mahayana Buddhist Oder said calling upon the name of Buddha is crucial, in this case Amita Buddha, and doing it will deliver you from this sinful world to the paradise, and that teaching has spread extensively in Asia. Now, you can see many Asian films, especially martial arts film, where Buddhist monks always recites Amita Buddha (sounds like AMITABU or AMITAFO or AMITAFA). In Japan, middle age Buddhist Monk Shinran said our salvation is not through our own good works but from Buddha himself something like that. So western theologians dubbed him as, kind of, the Luther of Asia.

Anyway, the three Asian philosophies (Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism) all to some extent claims that human beings should be one with the divine entity or God. But, just because they claim this doesn’t necessarily mean the NT teachings or WL’s teachings are from the ancient Asian thoughts. If we delve into the details, there are so many discrepancies.

2) Social acceptance

I guess we can use social acceptance exchangeably with culture. It is very of course that we should follow the culture of a specific time and place, like When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
According to a newspaper article in 2022, Rev. John Piper, a famous Bible teacher and writer in US said that regardless of time and space, all the Christians should practice the holy kiss as a greeting in Church. You can check here https://www.desiringgod.org/articles...y-affectionate

Really? In Asian culture, it is absolutely impossible to use kiss as a greeting, socially unacceptable.

3) Ancestor worship and seniority rule in the Church

Ancestor worship is the hallmark of Confucianism. We know respecting our parents are one of commandment of the OT’s Ten Commandments. However, I guess Confucian teachings went too far in this matter. Not only parents, so many ancestors should be respected by way of strict Confucian rituals by descendants. This means they put too much emphasis on the big family collectively rather than individuals. In Confucianism, this filial obligation is extended to King-servant relationship, where servant should be perfectly obedient to King. That’s why ancient Chinese feudal leaders accepted Confucianism as their governing principle.

"One publication" remindes me of the Emperor's edicts of ancient Chinese feudal system. This is not acceptable to most of modern Asian countries.

aron · 09-01-2023, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul made it perfectly clear in Acts 20.30 that there will always be those who lust to be first, speaking distorted things, and drawing God's children, not to His Son, but to themselves. Their perverted teachings must never be construed as God's Word.

And here's what's really weird, to me. The gospels highlight this issue repeatedly. "They all argued, over which was greatest." Then we fell for the Ministry of the Age nonsense. Mea culpa.

aron · 09-01-2023, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

Ancestor worship and seniority rule in the Church

Ancestor worship is the hallmark of Confucianism. We know respecting our parents are one of commandment of the OT’s Ten Commandments. However, I guess Confucian teachings went too far in this matter. Not only parents, so many ancestors should be respected by way of strict Confucian rituals by descendants. This means they put too much emphasis on the big family collectively rather than individuals. In Confucianism, this filial obligation is extended to King-servant relationship, where servant should be perfectly obedient to King. That’s why ancient Chinese feudal leaders accepted Confucianism as their governing principle.

This reminds me of what I noticed in the LC in the U. S. - the Caucasians would abandon their non-believing family - "The church is my family now" - whilst the Chinese 'saints' would keep unbelieving family members close by. Also your point about Asians not kissing one another is an example of why I started this thread. Culture determines how we interpret the Bible, and arrange our collective expressions. "Greet one another with a holy kiss" would be ignored in Asia, but would be literally enacted elsewhere.

aron · 09-01-2023, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hope

Benson and I had a lunch with Brother Lee and an older bachelor man from Waco. He had been visiting some of our meetings and came to hear Brother Lee. Brother Lee showed him much respect and engaged him in fellowship. Afterwards he told Benson and I that the brother was surely a man of spiritual depth and was very complementary of him.

As I came to know brother Lee more, I did notice a difference between his public persona and the way he treated different individuals. Publicly, sometimes he got into hyperbole. He would say something extreme and some of the more extreme personality types would take off with it. Publicly he enjoyed stirring the pot and poking his thumb in the eye of official Christianity. When challenged on any level, public or private, he way over reacted, and a fight was surely on.

I have a hard time believing he was so complicated to have come up with a method of teaching and behavior in order to create a system for enriching himself or enshrining himself as an uncontested, anointed, God-man, who was God’s man of faith and power for this hour. But it did happen! How he, the local churches, the so called “recovery” got from that simple meal in a one room efficiency with three young people to La Palma headquarters is quite a story.

Thinking about how many experienced the "early Lee" in the U. S. A., I read a story on Watchman Nee and the influence of neo-Confucianism, noting a similar "early Nee - later Nee" phenomenon. Here is a quote below from the article.

Quote:

Confucian political philosophy has two opposite characteristics. It can be used by a person without authority to challenge the person in the position, requiring his/her virtue to match the position. It can also to be used by the people in the position to reinforce their authority by asking people to submit, because the emperor represents Heaven. In the same way, when Nee has not had authority in the church, he challenge existing authorities, including denominations, institutions and liturgy, by criticising them from the perspectives of the legitimacy of power and purity.

When Nee has been in the leadership of the Little Flock Movement, he has asked the follower to submit to his deputy authority, because he has disclosed God’s will. Being in the leadership, Nee was “worshipped” by his followers, as an emperor was described as a sage. From this perspective, this perfectly explains the reason Nee has two opposite models of ecclesiology: the Antioch Model challenged the existing power in the church, while the Jerusalem Model emphasised submission to the authority.

You saw this dichotomy, of the initially humble bondslave, so gentle, but once in power you saw the autocratic despot. Witness Lee told us that China was "virgin soil" for the Holy Spirit to move, but he was incorrect. It was fallen and corrupted human soil, like any other. Same polluted soil, just a different flavor.

aron · 09-01-2023, 09:13 AM

Following post #592, more from the same source:

Quote:

Neo-Confucianism as a syncretic product of Confucianism, Taoism and Buddhism. Neo-Confucianism is a diffused religion, and its values will have impacts on people who live in the culture. Nee received traditional Chinese education and was influenced by Neo-Confucianism as the common people at his time.

Nee’s ecclesiology is very similar to Neo-Confucian political philosophy in the following ways: (1) focusing on the legitimacy of authority; (2) demanding restoring golden age order; (3) emphasising “reality corresponding to the name” and “unity”; (4) maintaining the idea that the metaphysical principle presenting in human community; (5) believing human beings knowing the higher principle through intuition; (6) having the same ideas on transforming community through self-negation and personal influence; and (7) maintaining the idea that morality/spirituality determining the authority.

From the analysis in this chapter, Neo-Confucianism has had a great impact on Nee’s ecclesiology, and the paradox of its political ideology explains the existing of Nee’s two opposite models of ecclesiology. The Antioch Model challenged the existing authority through demanding the purity of the church and of the clergy, while the Jerusalem Model emphasises submission to the Nee’s authority because he was the deputy authority, revealing God’s will.

Tien, H. E. (2020). Spirituality and Authority of the Corporate Christ: An analysis and critique of Watchman Nee’s ecclesiology (Doctoral dissertation).

It probably cannot be overstressed that Nee was converted to Christianity and began immediately to write and publish, unconsciously drawing on previous exposures and experiences to make sense of Christianity and to diffuse it outward. He literally made it up as he went along. Is it any wonder, then, that he seized upon Paul's "Spiritual Man" as his initial manifesto, overlapping so closely with the Confucian ideal?

ACuriousFellow · 09-01-2023, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Following post #592, more from the same source:

Tien, H. E. (2020). Spirituality and Authority of the Corporate Christ: An analysis and critique of Watchman Nee’s ecclesiology (Doctoral dissertation).

It probably cannot be overstressed that Nee was converted to Christianity and began immediately to write and publish, unconsciously drawing on previous exposures and experiences to make sense of Christianity and to diffuse it outward. He literally made it up as he went along. Is it any wonder, then, that he seized upon Paul's "Spiritual Man" as his initial manifesto, overlapping so closely with the Confucian ideal?

Wow... a lot of the references are going over my head, haha! While I may not know much about Confucianism myself, what you are saying about how Nee and Lee operated seems to fit the bill with what I've seen in a multitude of ministry publications from The Lord's Recovery. I feel like I'm definitely out of my league on this particular topic, but I am fascinated nonetheless.

Ohio · 09-02-2023, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Thinking about how many experienced the "early Lee" in the U. S. A., I read a story on Watchman Nee and the influence of neo-Confucianism, noting a similar "early Nee - later Nee" phenomenon. Here is a quote below from the article.

You saw this dichotomy, of the initially humble bondslave, so gentle, but once in power you saw the autocratic despot. Witness Lee told us that China was "virgin soil" for the Holy Spirit to move, but he was incorrect. It was fallen and corrupted human soil, like any other. Same polluted soil, just a different flavor.

Fascinating. Reference?

09-02-2023, 09:42 AM

Witness Lee himself admitted that he learned more from Chinese philosophers that from any missionaries:

- CHRISTIANITY NOT RELEASING THE PROFOUND REVELATION IN THE BIBLE—Some of you may wonder what my intention is in speaking to you concerning these particular and profound words. ……My intention is to release the profound revelation in the Bible. It is a pity that Christianity releases only ordinary doctrines to people instead of the fundamental and profound revelation and truth in the Bible….. I felt that the teachings of the Chinese philosophers were more profound than the preaching of the Western missionaries. During those few years, I stayed away from Christianity and did not attend any of their meetings.

CWWL, 1985, vol. 2, "The Fullness of God," ch. 1: The Meaning of the Fullness of God—the Creation of Man Being for the Fullness of God

09-02-2023, 10:29 AM

Here is one publication regarding Nee, that will help to understand this concepts.

https://docslib.org/doc/777556/the-s...an-perspective

UntoHim · 09-02-2023, 11:50 AM

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Gubei · 09-02-2023, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

This reminds me of what I noticed in the LC in the U. S. - the Caucasians would abandon their non-believing family - "The church is my family now" - whilst the Chinese 'saints' would keep unbelieving family members close by. Also your point about Asians not kissing one another is an example of why I started this thread. Culture determines how we interpret the Bible, and arrange our collective expressions. "Greet one another with a holy kiss" would be ignored in Asia, but would be literally enacted elsewhere.

Aron,

I have been classifing the Biblical teachings into two categories - first, cluture-agnostic teachings that we should follow regardless of specific time/space context, and second, cluture-influenced teachings like "greeting with a holy kiss" or "playing piano or not during church service" etc.
In the past, I regareded "one locality-one church doctrine" as being a culture-agnostic teaching, but thesedays, I think this is a kind of cluture-influenced theaching, becuase unlike ancient times when a "city" was well defined by physical stone wall and churches were in the embryonic stage with so small number of believers meaning naturally there is only one church in one city, moderen times have seen a lot of churches mushrooming with so many Christians. It is a bit impossible to stick to the one locality-one church doctrine as a culture-agnostic teaching. Admittely, WN really wanted to see churches are under good order without division, so he elaborated on his teaching on one locality-one church, but even we have long had this teaching, in reality, have we achieved real oneness among Christians? My answer is NO. Even among LCs, my observation is seeminly they always claim so, but I doubt our God really recognizes them being so, because the ground of oneness is not one locality-one city doctrine itself, but the sprit of oneness which LCs seems not to want to apply to other Christians out of LC members.

Gubei · 09-02-2023, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I felt that the teachings of the Chinese philosophers were more profound than the preaching of the Western missionaries. During those few years, I stayed away from Christianity and did not attend any of their meetings.

CWWL, 1985, vol. 2, "The Fullness of God," ch. 1: The Meaning of the Fullness of God—the Creation of Man Being for the Fullness of God

I guess I have to say that I cannot agree with him on this matter. He was saved by the Lord in 1925 when he was 20. Hencefore, we know he was so enthusiastic learning Christian truths, meaning he was not so involved in studying Confucian philosophies. Generally, China/Korea/Japan/Vietnam could be classifed as having been influenced by Confucianism deeply and the people of those countries have been influnced by Confucian doctrines, but this does not mean ordinary people are so familiar with the deep philosophical aspects of Confucianism. (Just like most of Westen people have been under the influence of Christianity, but not as good at profound Christian theologies) In addition, Neo-Confucianism is so abstract a cosmology and most of Asian people cannot understand without corresponding academic hard-training, which I cannot find in WL's books. I remember he talked about the first part of Great Learing(大學, rougly speaking an Asian equivalent of Politeia by Plato), one of sacred Confucian books on the purpose of a kingdom. His explanation about it was too basic to regard him as an expert on the subject.

aron · 09-03-2023, 03:32 AM

The Christian faith settling onto on an Asian cultural substrate explains what's been puzzling. The Antioch model of localism being overturned by the Jerusalem model of centralism, for example, coincides both with the people's need to be free from external control by the west, and then coordinated and managed from within, concurrent with Nee's own path of being a righteous seeker defying corruption to being the authority holding it. First, he defied authority, then he embodied it, and neo-Confucianism gave him the template and operative thrust for each. I don't think he ever did this deliberately any more than a fish feels 'wet' when it swims. He just never knew anything else. The NT had to adapt to the east, not vice versa. Likewise, Guyon, Penn-Lewis, and Keswick were fodder for a local variant.

Second, look at the apparent illogic of simultaneously saying you have 3,000 Christian classics guiding you and saying you have no peers, no contemporaries, once Leland Wang was removed. That's an average of 1.5 individual works per year for 2.000 years, and that copious fountain of guidance dries up all of a sudden? Not logical, unless your personal arc changes from 'learner' to 'sage'. Then, it makes sense, as it fits the narrative: the dutiful student becomes the master. He listens to everyone, then he listens to none.

And the inscrutable sage, locked into a higher truth, can pan the Bible, put his ne'er-do-well children onto the church, and we all look at one another and say it's part of God's mysterious plan. Then, the sage dies and we either continue via our personal relationship based on devotion (see, the blendeds) or we declare our own unique inscrutable truth, just as Lee did before (see, Mssrs Dong, and Chu).

Suddenly, what was unrelievedly queer, and oddity piled on top of oddity, makes perfect sense, and comes together in a quite satisfying way. Our old friend human culture never left us - it was there, just neatly hidden.

One final thought: the NT also had an inscrutable sage, named Jesus. His disciples clearly didn't get it, repeatedly flummoxed by his wisdom. But Jesus was singular in type, quality and scope, by definition. He was the Christ - there was no other. But neo-Confucianism gave a back door to the 'deputy God' character. Was it coincidental that Eastern Lightning and Lord Changshou cults emerged from the Shouters? I rather doubt it.

Ohio · 09-03-2023, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The Christian faith settling onto on an Asian cultural substrate explains what's been puzzling. The Antioch model of localism being overturned by the Jerusalem model of centralism, for example, coincides both with the people's need to be free from external control by the west, and then coordinated and managed from within, concurrent with Nee's own path of being a righteous seeker defying corruption to being the authority holding it. First, he defied authority, then he embodied it, and neo-Confucianism gave him the template and operative thrust for each. I don't think he ever did this deliberately any more than a fish feels 'wet' when it swims. He just never knew anything else. The NT had to adapt to the east, not vice versa. Likewise, Guyon, Penn-Lewis, and Keswick were fodder for a local variant.

Not doubting the validity of your "Asian Mind/ Western Mind" paradigm, but couldn't help but relate to the history to the Plymouth Brethren forbears of the 19th century. John Darby, the former Anglican "priest" owing allegiance to ultimately the King (or Queen) of England, started out with "autonomous assemblies in every city." Wonderful way to cut ties with Buckingham Palace, following a modified "Baptist model" of decentralized governance.

But when that Antioch model of self-governing assemblies allowed B.W. Newton et. al. in Plymouth, England to become the largest of all their assemblies, Darby needed a change of plans or soon they would not need him. That's when he returned to the old Anglican-style Jerusalem model with the "king" on top. A new king - himself. That's when he decided that all his chief rivals - B.W. Newton of Plymouth and George Muller of Bristol - needed to be eliminated. A common ploy of new kings. Unfortunately both Newton and Muller were totally blindsided by Darby, since they had no idea that they were "rivals to the throne" - what a sad story that was.

Fleshly ecclesiastic power - nothing new under the sun, as Solomon would say. And a fulfillment of Acts 20.30 as Aposle Paul had warned us.

TLFisher · 09-03-2023, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

But when that Antioch model of self-governing assemblies allowed B.W. Newton et. al. in Plymouth, England to become the largest of all their assemblies, Darby needed a change of plans or soon they would not need him. That's when he returned to the old Anglican-style Jerusalem model with the "king" on top. A new king - himself. That's when he decided that all his chief rivals - B.W. Newton of Plymouth and George Muller of Bristol - needed to be eliminated. A common ploy of new kings. Unfortunately both Newton and Muller were totally blindsided by Darby, since they had no idea that they were "rivals to the throne" - what a sad story that was.

Fleshly ecclesiastic power - nothing new under the sun, as Solomon would say. And a fulfillment of Acts 20.30 as Aposle Paul had warned us.

The folly of man, not learning from history and doomed to repeat it.
Do you think The Lord's Recovery is somehow immune to fleshly ecclesiastic power? Think again.
The Lord's Recovery did not learn from history concerning the Brethren movement of the 19th century which has since splintered through division after division.
Reinsert John Nelson Darby with Witness Lee
Reinsert B.W. Newton of Plymouth with John Ingalls of Anaheim
Reinsert George Muller of Bristol with William Mallon of Miami
Same is true in the Recovery as it was with the Brethren, Ingalls and Mallon needed to be eliminated. "Out with the old and in with the new."
As with Newton and Muller, Ingalls, Mallon and many others were blindsided.
They had no idea they wanted to take over the recovery. Only ones with fleshly ambition would come up with such a concept.
Same as Ohio said in his post, "what a sad story that was".

aron · 09-03-2023, 02:25 PM

I read the replies of Ohio and TLF and do see the point. I found a book on the Exclusive Brethren in Australia, led by Hales the supposedly Elect Vessel, and read of really underhanded things going on. And clearly they are not Oriental.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind...usive_Brethren

And then I remember the Gloriavale cult, run by Neville Cooper in New Zealand, who were so befuddled by his leadership that they restored him to ministry after he got out of jail after being convicted of sexual assault on minors. Same thing - Cooper is an Anglo, not Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria...tian_Community

But imagine if Gloriavale had full-time recruiters operating on every major college campus in the United States, along with national and regional training centres and and you'd have a better idea what we're looking at with Watchman Nee and now Witness Lee's group. The reason Gloriavale never became virulent and spread is that they didn't have the cultural substrate to work with that WN, WL et al have had.

WitnessALot · 09-05-2023, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

WitnessAlot,

1) Buddhist flavor of WL’s teachings

WL doesn’t seem to have been exposed to the doctrines of Buddhist philosophies. I’ve read/listened to most of his works, and he sometimes talked about the Confucian teachings but not Buddhist teachings. The reason someone criticizes him of the similarity of his teaching with Buddhist is that Buddhist teachings, especially those of Mahayana Buddhism, are quite similar to some aspects of the NT teachings. Some new religions’ leaders or Theosophy leaders have claimed that Jesus was under the teachings of ancient India or Buddhism, but to my best knowledge, on the contrary, the Greek philosophies and/or Christian teachings might have been brought to Asia through the conquest activities of Alexander the Great. Currently, many people believe that the canons of Mahayana Buddhism were initiated in Bactria, a central Asia city, where Alexander the Great established his base for East conquest.

Hi Gubei, thanks for clarifying the difference between Buddhism and Confucianism. I think it's fair to say that Witness Lee drew on a lot of different sources -- so many that he himself may have lost track of it -- but also added many of his nuances. The result is the "Witness Lee strange brew" that we all spent years/decades marinating in. And it evolved and morphed over time based on Lee's little whims.

As to number 2, personally, I think that religion and culture are usually inextricable to some degree or another. So the history of missionaries (and armies) carrying religions around the world throughout history is filled with this dynamic of cultural elements from one place attempting to supplant cultural elements in other places. The two things go hand-in-hand (i.e., the religious supplanting and the cultural supplanting).

Ohio · 09-05-2023, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I read the replies of Ohio and TLF and do see the point. I found a book on the Exclusive Brethren in Australia, led by Hales the supposedly Elect Vessel, and read of really underhanded things going on. And clearly they are not Oriental.

Yes aron, Bruce Hales leads the most extreme of all the Brethren Exclusives. They claim direct unbroken lineage back to J.N.Darby, much the same way that the Popes claim their lineage back to Peter. Here's the sequence of "God's Elect Vessels": J.N. Darby -> F.E. Raven -> James Taylor Sr. -> James Taylor Junior -> James Symington -> John Hales -> Bruce Hales. I think the worst was JT Jr, who had the morals of Philip Lee.

Your study into the mindset of Eastern and Western cultures definitely has been helpful, but since I am more familiar with church history, I tend to bring that slant to the forum. As soon as any church leader gets elevated to the top, the door opens wide to corruptions of every sort. Coupled with the demand to regularly "see new visions," the audience is now prepped to receive a host of perverted heresies.

Gubei · 09-06-2023, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WitnessALot

Hi Gubei, thanks for clarifying the difference between Buddhism and Confucianism. I think it's fair to say that Witness Lee drew on a lot of different sources -- so many that he himself may have lost track of it -- but also added many of his nuances. The result is the "Witness Lee strange brew" that we all spent years/decades marinating in. And it evolved and morphed over time based on Lee's little whims.

Hi, WitnessAlot,

To avoid any possible being off the track, one should continually interact with other people. Theologians are not exceptions. That's why there is such thing as academic societies and their journals, in which theologians present their opinions and others support or academically criticize for better result.

To my best knowledge, WL has not involved in any formal discussions with other theologians. Partly, that was due to his lack of English fluency. Ironically, he stressed the importance of taking off any glasses which keep us from seeing straight from the divine revelation, but he himself has not been officially tested by others, especially Western scholars. He might have believed he himself is totally apart from any errors. When we review his attitude towards his co-workers when they present dissenting opinions(aka, "rebellion"), I would say his "inner composition of an Asian man" has popped up. Unlike western people who are accustomed to dissenting opinions and reasonable compromise by discussions, WL seem not to have had those kind of experience.

There was a chance to correct this sad situation when WL passed away, but his successors took the path of "putting him on the highest place" (semi-deification?) and his teachings have become untouchable among them.

Everyone has his/her own "brew" in understanding the Bible and its truths, but usually they do not say theirs are the only one genuine pure God-given food, and their restaurant is "THE" restaurant. As soon as one claims so, that is the advent of "personality cult."

TLFisher · 09-07-2023, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

To my best knowledge, WL has not involved in any formal discussions with other theologians. Partly, that was due to his lack of English fluency. Ironically, he stressed the importance of taking off any glasses which keep us from seeing straight from the divine revelation, but he himself has not been officially tested by others, especially Western scholars. He might have believed he himself is totally apart from any errors. When we review his attitude towards his co-workers when they present dissenting opinions(aka, "rebellion"), I would say his "inner composition of an Asian man" has popped up. Unlike western people who are accustomed to dissenting opinions and reasonable compromise by discussions, WL seem not to have had those kind of experience.

Walter Martin was one who comes to mind, but that was not long lasting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830hmhL-w6A

TLFisher · 09-07-2023, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

There was a chance to correct this sad situation when WL passed away, but his successors took the path of "putting him on the highest place" (semi-deification?) and his teachings have become untouchable among them.

Yes, they had opportunity to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
Late 1990's following Witness Lee's passing, the brothers deified Witness Lee. He was perfected. "Mistakes other men would make, Brother Lee wouldn't make." That's paraphrasing one brother I knew.
I could understand why the co-workers have done what they do. Witness Lee's ministry is their employment. It would not be prudent for them to begin scrutinizing where Witness Lee was off compared to scripture. That's why Witness Lee's ministry is considered on par with scripture by those meeting with the Local Churches.

Ohio · 09-07-2023, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

There was a chance to correct this sad situation when WL passed away, but his successors took the path of "putting him on the highest place" (semi-deification?) and his teachings have become untouchable among them.

Nigel Tomes wrote a great article after the Midwest quarantines.

He compared the Exclusive Brethren Taylorites with the successors of the 18th Moravian Zinzendorf. The Blendeds like the Taylorites have refused to address any of the excesses and failures, whereas those after Zinzendorf did correct some teaching errors and brought further blessing to that move of the Lord.

Those who are proud refuse to learn, but the humble will learn, grow, change, and be blessed by the Lord.

Gubei · 09-10-2023, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Yes, they had opportunity to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.
Late 1990's following Witness Lee's passing, the brothers deified Witness Lee. He was perfected. "Mistakes other men would make, Brother Lee wouldn't make." That's paraphrasing one brother I knew.
I could understand why the co-workers have done what they do. Witness Lee's ministry is their employment. It would not be prudent for them to begin scrutinizing where Witness Lee was off compared to scripture. That's why Witness Lee's ministry is considered on par with scripture by those meeting with the Local Churches.

Quote:

Nigel Tomes wrote a great article after the Midwest quarantines.

He compared the Exclusive Brethren Taylorites with the successors of the 18th Moravian Zinzendorf. The Blendeds like the Taylorites have refused to address any of the excesses and failures, whereas those after Zinzendorf did correct some teaching errors and brought further blessing to that move of the Lord.

Those who are proud refuse to learn, but the humble will learn, grow, change, and be blessed by the Lord.
__________________

I remember Witness Lee lamanted his wrong doings towards other christians in a meeting not long before his passing away. He spoke in Chinese, and when I listened to his speaking, I felt his confessions were quite genuine. But later, after his passing away, his successors claimed that WL's confessions was not apology something like that. Which means that was the watershed event that shaped what had come to us afterwards.
In a sense, WL was not so lucky because his last confessions were interpreted in a way of kind of "distortion" by his successors, but... that was also a harvest of what he planted in the past. I'm so sorry about that.

Gubei · 09-10-2023, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Walter Martin was one who comes to mind, but that was not long lasting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=830hmhL-w6A

Thanks for the link. I will listen to it.

Ohio · 09-10-2023, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

I remember Witness Lee lamanted his wrong doings towards other christians in a meeting not long before his passing away. He spoke in Chinese, and when I listened to his speaking, I felt his confessions were quite genuine. But later, after his passing away, his successors claimed that WL's confessions was not apology something like that. Which means that was the watershed event that shaped what had come to us afterwards.
In a sense, WL was not so lucky because his last confessions were interpreted in a way of kind of "distortion" by his successors, but... that was also a harvest of what he planted in the past. I'm so sorry about that.

Yes, the Blendeds claimed that during his public repentance, WL was not remorseful for his own misbehavior, but was repenting for ours.

Bible-believer · 09-10-2023, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, the Blendeds claimed that during his public repentance, WL was not remorseful for his own misbehavior, but was repenting for ours.

Hi, Ohio,

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/...thread&order=0

Do you know Herald Hsu or the story he told?

Ohio · 09-11-2023, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

Hi, Ohio,

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/...thread&order=0

Do you know Herald Hsu or the story he told?

Didn't he write "Hiding History," which I read many years ago?

My old link to that site no longer works. It was with Troy Brooks.

H.H. provided much of the untold history of WL during the Taiwan days.

The moderators may remember more.

WitnessALot · 10-10-2023, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

I remember Witness Lee lamanted his wrong doings towards other christians in a meeting not long before his passing away. He spoke in Chinese, and when I listened to his speaking, I felt his confessions were quite genuine. But later, after his passing away, his successors claimed that WL's confessions was not apology something like that. Which means that was the watershed event that shaped what had come to us afterwards.
In a sense, WL was not so lucky because his last confessions were interpreted in a way of kind of "distortion" by his successors, but... that was also a harvest of what he planted in the past. I'm so sorry about that.

Gubei, is there a recording of this speaking that you know of, or did you hear it live?

TLFisher · 10-19-2023, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WitnessALot

Gubei, is there a recording of this speaking that you know of, or did you hear it live?

There used to be one on YouTube, but of course when LSM can claim copyright infringement they will. It is not a matter of someone trying to make money off a Witness Lee video, but about using it to make a point.
Attached is an article from concernedbrothers.com

Gubei · 11-13-2023, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WitnessALot

Gubei, is there a recording of this speaking that you know of, or did you hear it live?

I remember I was attending a church meeting in Seoul, Korea, watching the video. That was not a real time live broadcasting, though. (mainly due to time difference between Asia and the States etc)

Gubei · 11-13-2023, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLFisher

There used to be one on YouTube, but of course when LSM can claim copyright infringement they will. It is not a matter of someone trying to make money off a Witness Lee video, but about using it to make a point.
Attached is an article from concernedbrothers.com

That is not the first time. I remember Witness Lee was a bit confused on the matter of goats people in the Revelation during a meeting, later I found the printed book was a bit different from what WL really spoke during the meeting.

OBW · 12-05-2023, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubei

Aron,

I have been classifing the Biblical teachings into two categories - first, cluture-agnostic teachings that we should follow regardless of specific time/space context, and second, cluture-influenced teachings like "greeting with a holy kiss" or "playing piano or not during church service" etc.
In the past, I regareded "one locality-one church doctrine" as being a culture-agnostic teaching, but thesedays, I think this is a kind of cluture-influenced theaching, becuase unlike ancient times when a "city" was well defined by physical stone wall and churches were in the embryonic stage with so small number of believers meaning naturally there is only one church in one city, moderen times have seen a lot of churches mushrooming with so many Christians.

Actually, either position presumes that "one locality-one church" is actually a doctrine supported by scripture. As I can find no real support for it, it seems to not be available to categorize into your agnostic/influenced dicotomy.

07-02-2018, 05:51 AM	#501
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,653	Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church Today every LC uses only Lee's books for their teaching and the content of their gatherings. Not just any old Lee books, but they must use the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And not just any old HWFMR off their shelves, but it must be the one from the latest "Feast." And for those who are not in the know, this "Feast" is the latest semi-annual training held at LSM's headquarters in Anaheim, CA. Don't think every LC arrived at this decision freely and amicably. This strict practice took decades to reach. Literally hundreds of LC elders resisted their bully tactics over the years, citing their God-given responsibilities to shepherd their own church. But years of coercion, manipulation, threatening, quarantines, evictions, and lawsuits were used to reach such a goal. This takeover work by Lee/LSM began in 1974, about the time I first contacted the LC, and ended with the GLA quarantines, when I left the LC. In the beginning the LC's were Christ-centered gatherings in each locality, or "local" church. At least it was that way for all of us young brothers and sisters. Slowly we transitioned to "ministry-centered" franchises for the building up of "the body." Why? Because Christ-centered gatherings in each locality created too much "independence" for each member, each eldership, and each LC. So-called "independence" or "autonomy" was great for the children of God, since congregations could more readily focus on shepherding their own members and communities, but bad for business, LSM's that is. And LSM is all about control. Lee made that clear. He once said that he would rather have ten who were absolutely one with him, than all the LC's. This explains why LSM seems unfazed with the loss of thousands of former members in the Midwest and Brazil. Their message has been simple: If you don't like things our way, just leave, but don't take your meeting hall, it's ours. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

07-02-2018, 01:15 PM	#513
Drake Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 2,075	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind -1 aron>"Like the faceless proletariat in front of Chairman Mao, all dressed in their Mao smocks with their little red books." .....and there it is again.. right on schedule. The use of loaded terms. Chinese imagery too. A double whammy. Aron, your constant use of loaded terms exposes the weakness and fallacy of your argument. Argument by Emotive Language (also known as: loaded words, loaded language, euphemisms) Description: Substituting facts and evidence with words that stir up emotion, with the attempt to manipulate others into accepting the truth of the argument. Drake

07-02-2018, 03:08 PM	#515
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,626	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind -2 Drake ok. Sorry, but I'm being honest and telling you what I see. I see the words, "not having any individual distinctiveness" and that's what I see. I don't see the Bible. Paul told us, God gives gifts that differ. Some have a tongue, some an interpretation. Some are prophets some are apostles. I see distinctions, individual distinctiveness. Yet the footnote tells me no. I see, star differs from star in glory but the footnote says no. You feign outrage but where is the competing vision? It took poster named "Trapped" to rescue you from part one, the "exactly identical" part in "shape". I don't ever remember hearing that a church had a shape. What was I supposed to see? But hooray for "Trapped" who explained it nicely. Then I give you every opportunity to explain part two and you become indignant. But no answers. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

07-02-2018, 03:25 PM	#517
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,626	A poll A poll. How many of you heard the local churches referred to as "Witness Lee Duplication Centers"? I did. Second question: how many of you were told to be "Witness Lee Tape Recorders"? I was. We were told that losing our individuality (and pushing that of Witness Lee) was a spiritual endeavour. Now, read the footnote in Revelation 1:20 and tell me what you see. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

07-06-2018, 05:06 PM	#526
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Is the ground of oneness concept unique to the LRC? Does the LRC consider that a "recovered" concept/practice? Or have there been other groups after the NT time but prior to Nee/Lee who saw/practiced the same thing?

07-06-2018, 05:23 PM	#527
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,653	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind They stole the "ground" from the exclusive British Plymouth Brethren, who also have a checkered history of lawsuits, divisions, and excommunications. Nee was a part of the Exclusive Brethren until he committed a "mortal sin." He joined a communion service and "broke bread" with a part of the "degraded, divided, condemned system of Christianity." Here is an interesting article about W. Nee and the Exclusives. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

07-06-2018, 05:37 PM	#528
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Thanks. Do you know how far back the BPB went? It's a small point why I'm asking. I was just thinking today about the seven lampstands and that if other Christian teachers, including Nee, said that one level of interpretation of the seven lampstands is that they represent the church at different points throughout history, then the LRC “the ground of oneness” cannot determine the legitimacy of a lampstand because this “ground” is supposedly a recovered truth in the very present time. If previous gatherings of believers before the Nee/Lee local churches did not meet on this recovered ground of oneness, how then could it be possible for the lampstands to represent the church at different points throughout history?

07-08-2018, 06:46 AM	#531
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind a. "Success of revolution depends on propaganda. To take the New Way we need to learn from the Communists in their propaganda techniques. The way of propaganda is through the clever use of our tongues." b. "We need to learn from the Red Guards. Even we nedd to learn from Satan for whenever God wants to do a work, Satan is always one step ahead." c. "The New Way requires no prayers. The more you pray, the more confused you are. Just follow the instructions and do it. You'll be all right." d. "We need to squeeze money out of the brothers and sisters." aron, you can provide references if you want, but the references have been provided on this forum many times over the years. Now, just how much of this non-sense was influenced by Asian/Chinese culture is certainly an open question in my mind. I think some of the excesses during this time in the Local Church can be directly linked to the culture that Witness Lee brought to the movement in North America. (Of course Lee didn't have to bring such influence to the churches in Taiwan/Asia...that area of the world was already steeped in ancient Asian culture and tradition) - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

07-08-2018, 09:33 PM	#536
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind No Drake, you wouldn't know aron's argument if it came up and bit you on the nose. You don't know his argument because you are obviously not listening to a word the man is saying. I'm not asking you to agree, but your constant harping on "sources!, sources!, sources! is making it look like you're trying to distract us from the issue at hand. All the quotes and quips aron is bringing forth are all common knowledge. They've been written about in black and white and on the Internet for years now. ...and speaking of responsibility, it's mine to keep this forum readable, informative and hopefully integrous. You're making my job really, really hard my man. I mean, your arguing about whether the sun rises in the East and sets in the West. Why don't you just concede the fact that these things were said, and then you can spend your time actually addressing the issue(s) at hand. - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

07-09-2018, 09:28 PM	#544
Drake Member Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 2,075	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind -1 UntoHim, No one has ever denied is not the same as they agreed. Yet, if these quotes 6 a-d were common knowledge then it should be easy enough to identify who made the statement, when and where they were said. Rather than go duck shooting why not simply produce the source? Perhaps because no one knows for sure? And if you think I am ignorant of common knowledge why not enlightenment instead of derision? Certain posters have opinions that they attempt to pawn off as fact. To do that they "quote" stuff. In this case "LSM". Maybe the actual quote is right. Maybe it should not have been said. Maybe it was taken out of context. Perhaps it was meant one way and taken another. I don't dismiss any of those or other possibilities. I don't dismiss that odd or peculiar things have been stated by servants and coworkers either. However, in this case there is no evidence of those ACTUAL statements aron quoted are real. Therefore, any conclusions (e.g."what happens when one culture begins to dominate ") derived from them is a flimsy argument. ..... and without merit. Drake

07-09-2018, 10:20 PM	#545
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind I have no dog in this particular fight, but this is about the only thing I can find online mentioning the points 6.a-d that also has any slight additional details around it (starts about 8-9 paragraphs down): The True Account by David Wang

02-13-2019, 08:43 PM	#552
Weighingin Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 95	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Is there a local church there affiliated with LSM or has the "ground" been lost?

02-14-2019, 12:39 PM	#555
Weighingin Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 95	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind I just was curious about their affiliation. There's more I could comment on about the ground, but that should be in another thread. Regarding this thread, I have seen comments that the LCs are increasingly Asian, in the USA and even outside. This is due to the LC practices appealing to their culture. I have observed both by my presence and by others' postings, especially of campus clubs on FB, that there are places that are predominantly Asian. This seems to be true in CA especially, with the YP and campus clubs. I have seen this too with other campus clubs in some cities or towns outside CA, those that have a school with high attendance. But while there is a good number of foreign Chinese or Asian students, a substantial number are ABCs, most of which are "church kids." Last edited by Weighingin; 02-14-2019 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Correcting grammar and misspellings.

02-22-2020, 06:05 AM	#561
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,626	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Shinchonji Church with Chairman Lee Man-Hee I noted a Korean church that got public attention in the recent Wuhan coronavirus outbreak. https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-07-...-its-just-cult Similarities with the LC: 1. The group believes its pastor whom they call the "Chairman" is the sent one from God who alone can correctly interpret the Bible. 2. By following this pastor exclusively, members are able to fulfill God's plan, as outlined by the Bible (and taught by the pastor, natch). 3.The pastor controls the church publishing house, and his church buys his books.* (conflict of interest?) 4. They're antagonistic towards fellow Christians, saying that any who question or disagree with them are persecuting them the same way Jesus was persecuted, and revealing a satanic source. 5. They recruit deceptively through seemingly generic "Bible training" centres, with nominal Christians as prey, only later revealing their affiliation, once the hooks are set. 6. Cult members are expected to orient their lives around devotion to the church. Interaction with and relation to God is strictly mediated by church leader and teaching. Family, job, society are hindrances, useful only as wealth-extraction resources and areas for recruitment. 7. Viewing images and videos of members in group setting, it's clearly about conforming to a high-pressure, high-control environment, where subsumed individuality is akin to "heaven" or "divine". Note, for example, the repetitive chanting, "Amen, amen" irrespective of what's said by group spokesperson. This pattern of group action may not be 'Asian' per say, but I'm wondering why these cults do so well in Asian culture? I think of the LC of Nee/Lee/Chu/Dong/Blendeds, the Shinchonji with Chairman Lee Man-Hee, and Iglesia Ni Cristo of Felix Y Manalo and progeny. Each of them has striking parallels, with the charismatic founder leapfrogging traditional, historical, Christianity to create an ethnocentric pseudo-Christian personality devotion cult. I remember a current LC leader: "Can we ever honour our brother [Lee] too much?" Each of these groups has blaring-klaxon "warning!" "warning!" signs, if one's willing to look. Yet they've done spectacularly well, nonetheless, with hundreds of thousands of indigenous adherents, and exported abroad with ethnic immigrants (and a few gullible locals). I wonder if a similar cultural bedrock lies in their substratum? Let me put it another way: each of these groups claims to be the "One True Church" and fulfillment of Jesus' plan, through their anointed leader. Yet by that definition alone, two of them are frauds, heretical personality cults. Yet all these three groups have done well with their native constituencies - Chinese, Filipino, and Korean - nonetheless, by promoting absolute devotion and unquestioning obedience. Is there something about the culture itself that's resistant to critical self-examination? Is there some culturally-sourced innate desire for collective social cohesion that over-rides even the intrusion of objective reality itself? I remember the LC mantra - "don't think - it only produces confusion." To Western minds this looks alarming, but to the Asian mind this is the True Path of Light? * "The Creation of Heaven and Earth", by Lee Man-Hee, for example. Publisher: Lee Man-Hee. (Hey - whaddaya know!) 566 pages. 5-star review on Google Books, by Am Klaus from Uganda. "People should really come to their senses and accept the truth instead of wanting to be told what they want to here like your going to get a job, a car ,a wife, a husband an many others. That is what the devil uses to hold people captive to do his will. You can even see from statistics during Noah's time only eight people accepted to enter the Ark and during Jesus's First coming only 12 people so my brothers how sure are you that you recognise Jesus on his Second Coming, how sure are you that you won't be like the Pharisees in the First Coming of Jesus. Guys lets get to our senses this is the end of age, the Bible says narrow is the gate that leads to Heaven and a few people find it if you and wide is the gate that leads to destruction and many will enter through it (Mtt 7:13). So if you consider the believers world wide then the gate of heaven would be broad. Shinchonji is the real deal you just give it a shot because the Bible says Let us hear and discern for ourselves." __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

02-28-2020, 09:12 AM	#563
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind It makes you wonder how the LC got a foothold in a culture steeped in "rugged individualism" and pulling oneself up "by the bootstraps." Somehow a bunch of people stepped out of the mundane of regular Christianity to become subservient to a non-western system. Go figure. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

08-30-2023, 09:16 PM	#584
WitnessALot Member Join Date: Feb 2023 Posts: 18	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind P.S. This may have been addressed elsewhere in this thread, but I think ancestor worship is another aspect of Asian culture that was brought into LC culture. I remember listening to older brothers speaking in a training about what they will "say to Witness Lee" when they "see him again in that day." It was really like they were talking about God, yet they were talking about Witness Lee.

09-02-2023, 09:42 AM	#596
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind Witness Lee himself admitted that he learned more from Chinese philosophers that from any missionaries: - CHRISTIANITY NOT RELEASING THE PROFOUND REVELATION IN THE BIBLE—Some of you may wonder what my intention is in speaking to you concerning these particular and profound words. ……My intention is to release the profound revelation in the Bible. It is a pity that Christianity releases only ordinary doctrines to people instead of the fundamental and profound revelation and truth in the Bible….. I felt that the teachings of the Chinese philosophers were more profound than the preaching of the Western missionaries. During those few years, I stayed away from Christianity and did not attend any of their meetings. CWWL, 1985, vol. 2, "The Fullness of God," ch. 1: The Meaning of the Fullness of God—the Creation of Man Being for the Fullness of God

09-02-2023, 10:29 AM	#597
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: The neo Confucian influence on Watchman Nee and Witness Lee Here is one publication regarding Nee, that will help to understand this concepts. https://docslib.org/doc/777556/the-s...an-perspective

09-02-2023, 11:50 AM	#598
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind ************************************** To the person who made these last two posts: Please take a minute to register for an account. Shoot an email over to Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com and be sure to include your desired UserName. It is the policy of this forum that anyone who desires to post more than just a couple of times to take a few minutes to register. Additionally, to avoid confusion we ask that non-members insert a temporary UserName in the appropriate box. Thanks for your cooperation! ADMIN - ************************************** __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11**

09-03-2023, 03:32 AM	#601
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,626	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind The Christian faith settling onto on an Asian cultural substrate explains what's been puzzling. The Antioch model of localism being overturned by the Jerusalem model of centralism, for example, coincides both with the people's need to be free from external control by the west, and then coordinated and managed from within, concurrent with Nee's own path of being a righteous seeker defying corruption to being the authority holding it. First, he defied authority, then he embodied it, and neo-Confucianism gave him the template and operative thrust for each. I don't think he ever did this deliberately any more than a fish feels 'wet' when it swims. He just never knew anything else. The NT had to adapt to the east, not vice versa. Likewise, Guyon, Penn-Lewis, and Keswick were fodder for a local variant. Second, look at the apparent illogic of simultaneously saying you have 3,000 Christian classics guiding you and saying you have no peers, no contemporaries, once Leland Wang was removed. That's an average of 1.5 individual works per year for 2.000 years, and that copious fountain of guidance dries up all of a sudden? Not logical, unless your personal arc changes from 'learner' to 'sage'. Then, it makes sense, as it fits the narrative: the dutiful student becomes the master. He listens to everyone, then he listens to none. And the inscrutable sage, locked into a higher truth, can pan the Bible, put his ne'er-do-well children onto the church, and we all look at one another and say it's part of God's mysterious plan. Then, the sage dies and we either continue via our personal relationship based on devotion (see, the blendeds) or we declare our own unique inscrutable truth, just as Lee did before (see, Mssrs Dong, and Chu). Suddenly, what was unrelievedly queer, and oddity piled on top of oddity, makes perfect sense, and comes together in a quite satisfying way. Our old friend human culture never left us - it was there, just neatly hidden. One final thought: the NT also had an inscrutable sage, named Jesus. His disciples clearly didn't get it, repeatedly flummoxed by his wisdom. But Jesus was singular in type, quality and scope, by definition. He was the Christ - there was no other. But neo-Confucianism gave a back door to the 'deputy God' character. Was it coincidental that Eastern Lightning and Lord Changshou cults emerged from the Shouters? I rather doubt it. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

09-03-2023, 02:25 PM	#604
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,626	Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind I read the replies of Ohio and TLF and do see the point. I found a book on the Exclusive Brethren in Australia, led by Hales the supposedly Elect Vessel, and read of really underhanded things going on. And clearly they are not Oriental. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind...usive_Brethren And then I remember the Gloriavale cult, run by Neville Cooper in New Zealand, who were so befuddled by his leadership that they restored him to ministry after he got out of jail after being convicted of sexual assault on minors. Same thing - Cooper is an Anglo, not Chinese. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria...tian_Community But imagine if Gloriavale had full-time recruiters operating on every major college campus in the United States, along with national and regional training centres and and you'd have a better idea what we're looking at with Watchman Nee and now Witness Lee's group. The reason Gloriavale never became virulent and spread is that they didn't have the cultural substrate to work with that WN, WL et al have had. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'