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Old 10-24-2015, 08:26 AM   #1501
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Actually instead of Reagan I should have said George H. W. Bush.
The good old days!
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:07 AM   #1502
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The faith you describe is not the faith described in the Bible, not even close, which is probably why you and Igzy are going round and round here. Faith is the fundamental “currency” of the Kingdom of God. In the Old Testament, God expected his people to exercise abject faith - in the case of Abraham, to the point of sacrificing his son. God expected the Hebrews to exercise such faith in crossing the Red Sea. They received their rewards for exercising such faith in their lifetimes. To God's latter day followers - Christians - faith is still the currency of the Kingdom, however there is a difference insomuch as the rewards we receive for exercising such faith are, for the most part, received in the age to come. As an example, I would point you to Jesus' word to “doubting Thomas” - “blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed”. (John 20:29) There are many, many other scriptural references to give, but this one will have to due for now, and besides this hits hard upon the main point anyway; to wit - Faith, specifically the salvific faith of the Christian Faith, of which Witness Lee claimed to be a minister and an apostle of, is one of fully imbibing in the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as the words of the Living God of Heaven and Earth. Apart from the Faith that is described and attested to in these Scriptures, any definitions and/or descriptions are somewhat irrelevant to our discussions, even here on Alt Views.

Very interesting observation. I don't think Igzy or anyone else has claimed that “metaphors are meaningless”, so the rest of your claims fall flat. What you are missing here, zeek, is that many of the metaphors, at least the most important ones, are metaphors that were given directly by God himself, and not from the imaginations of mere men. Most of the relevant Old Testament metaphors were fulfilled by the Lord Jesus. To name just a few – the water from the cleft rock becomes the Living Water offered to the woman at the well. The manna given to the Children of Israel becomes The Bread of Life in the Gospel of John. “Behold the Lamb of God!” proclaimed by John the Baptist becomes the Lamb sitting upon “the throne of God and of the Lamb” in Revelation 13:8. These are not the mere metaphors of created beings, but those given by the Creator himself. I'm sure you can understand the difference.

Of course this all brings us around full circle again. To the Bible. The Sacred Scriptures. EVERYTHING starts and ends with the Bible being the words of the Living God of Heaven and Earth. And just as the title God, Father, Son and Spirit have SPECIFIC, KNOWABLE, UNDERSTANDABLE definitions within the Judeo-Christian Scriptures, so does the term “Faith”.
I couldn't let Untohim's post just slip into the history of this thread. It so well defines fundamentalism that it should be the heading of this thread.

Untohim reveals what irks me about fundamentalism. And that is, fundamentalism is belief by proclamation, not evidence; by fiat, not proof. That's the very nature of the five fundamentals.

I won't go into all of them. Just the first one will do. That, "the Bible is inspired and inerrant." They can't prove either. They just proclaim it.

And that's how I was indoctrinated with it. It was proclaimed to me, and I wasn't suppose to question it.

But eventually I did. And discovered it was just proclamation without any evidence to back it up.

Why? > because they can't prove it. So they proclaim it, and everyone is suppose to just accept it.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:17 AM   #1503
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Actually instead of Reagan I should have said George H. W. Bush.
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The good old days!
You guys and politics ... and liberals, et al.
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Old 10-24-2015, 09:54 AM   #1504
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Liberal: A liberal is a person who values personal freedom to the point of questioning traditional beliefs so that he/she can be liberated from them. Liberals prefer new ideas to old ones, mostly because they hope the new ideas will not place as much of a moral burden on them. They are always looking for ways to be morally liberated, and sympathize with "alternative" lifestyles which seek to do the same. Thus they take great relish in catching conservatives in some hypocrisy because they feel this discredits the conservative's traditional values and thus furthers their emancipation from those values. That's basically what's going on here on this alternative forum.
Where did you get that definition? It comes with a motivational hypothesis. How do you know that it applies unless you ask a person if he or she is a liberal, what that means to them and what motivates them? I don't relish catching conservatives in hypocrisy. Does that mean I might not be a liberal by your definition. The fact that you impute moral evasion to me does explain your negative attitude though.

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Know: That's a tough one. Basically there are two kinds of knowing. Natural and spiritual. Both have elements of faith because both are based on first principle assumptions. An example of natural knowledge is my knowing my lawn is green. I've seen it with my own eyes, so I know for sure. But do I? Perhaps I'm dreaming, or delusional or colorblind? Can't really know for sure. But I have a certain faith that I do know. Spiritual knowing is similar yet different. We know, but there is faith involved. Basically, I think real spiritual knowing is revelation from God. We know that we know that we know. But we can't really explain how. This drives philosophers and skeptics crazy, which is some comfort.
If faith comes first then the sequence would be "We believe that we know that we know" or "We know that we believe that we know" or "We believe that we believe that we believe." Since you can't explain how you know maybe you don't.

But, that's the nature of faith, and I agree we can't function without it.

Here's a suggestion. Review our discussion and notice how many times I verbalize agreement with you and how many times you verbalize it with me. Who agrees the most? Why do you suppose that is? If you found yourself agreeing with me, a guy you have labeled as a morally evasive liberal would that be a good or bad thing?
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Old 10-25-2015, 07:55 PM   #1505
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Where did you get that definition? It comes with a motivational hypothesis. How do you know that it applies unless you ask a person if he or she is a liberal, what that means to them and what motivates them? I don't relish catching conservatives in hypocrisy. Does that mean I might not be a liberal by your definition.
You asked me for MY definition. That's it. Take it or leave it.

Quote:
Since you can't explain how you know maybe you don't.
Oh, I can tell you exactly how I know. I know because God showed me. But I figured you wouldn't be able to resist questioning that or trying to discredit it in some way and then that would be the end of it, so I just didn't bother.

But note, I never said I could prove it. But just because I can't prove it doesn't mean I don't know.

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If you found yourself agreeing with me, a guy you have labeled as a morally evasive liberal would that be a good or bad thing?
Neither did I ever say you were all bad.
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Old 10-26-2015, 07:52 AM   #1506
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Here's the thing about this stuff, guys. I'm never going to be able to say anything in any kind of way that is going to be the final word to show you are wrong. Vice versa for you. There is no "proof" to be found here. None that you can give, and none that I can give. All there is is evidence. Evidence that I and others present and evidence that you present and evidence from other sources. All one can do as a seeker is take all the evidence and make informed decisions. The uncertainty of the evidence calls your character into what you decide, but don't think for a minute that the uncertainly reduces the gravity of the decision one bit.

From my vantage point, the evidence for the basic Christian message is overwhelming. When I hear objections to that message here they are based in ideas that seem much less likely than that the message is true. I can't prove that statistically, it just seems to be common sense to me. For example:

Is it likely the universe does not have a creator. No.

Is it likely we have personality but our creator doesn't? No.

Is it likely we have a moral sense but our creator doesn't. No.

Is it likely the Bible is not a divinely inspired book given:
Consistency of message when written over 1500 years by more than 35 writers.
No historical fact presented in it ever shown to be false.
Many fulfilled prophecies, especially about Jesus.
Neither the character Jesus nor his dialogue could have been concocted by the human mind.
Unrefuted resurrection of Jesus.
Style of New Testament one not of myth but historical fact. "Realistic fiction" as a writing style did not exist in its day.
Fingerprints of divine Authorship, including numerous heptadic (instances of seven) constraints impressed on the NT. One instance being that each gospel contains some unique words not used in any other gospel. In each gospel's case the number of those words is a multiple of seven. The same is true of Peter, James, Jude and Paul. Each writer's unique vocabulary is a multiple of seven.
And others.
No.

Is it likely the Bible has been significantly altered since the first versions? No.

Is it likely, given the way God, Jesus and the Bible itself are spoken of in its pages, that the Bible is only partially inspired? No.

Is it likely that formerly cowardly disciples would become lions of faith after the brutal public execution of their leader or that thousands would be willing to die for this faith early on if they hadn't seen something (i.e. the resurrected Jesus) that utterly convinced them of something extraordinary? No.

Is it likely that millions of believers since the resurrection would have experiences the Bible describes and promises (changed lives, inner peace, close relationships with God, love for brethren, living water, spiritual gifts, physical and psychological healings, answered prayers, etc) if the message in the Bible was false? No.

Is it likely there is not something special about the Christian message given the absence of such powerfully confirming evidences in other world religions and philosophies? No.


No. The overall impression from the evidence is it is highly likely that the basic Christian faith message is true.

Now, one can always come up with some "explanation" of each of these things. The most common being the claim that the Bible has been altered over the years. But there is scant evidence of such alternation. Other theories, such as writer collusion, also come with little to no evidence.

It becomes much harder to ignore all these above evidences and others when they are considered as a whole. It reaches the point that trying to explain them away just begins to look like a very concerted effort to avoid what is obvious. Ultimately it looks like the effort of people that don't like God, don't like his message, or don't like the way he chose to present himself to his creation.

This doesn't have to be rocket science, guys. All you need is a little honesty and a willingness to give up what you wish were true.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:15 AM   #1507
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You asked me for MY definition. That's it. Take it or leave it.
You haven't supported your definition with evidence or reason. I'll leave it until you do.


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Oh, I can tell you exactly how I know. I know because God showed me. But I figured you wouldn't be able to resist questioning that or trying to discredit it in some way and then that would be the end of it, so I just didn't bother.
That's one of those infinite regressions that you were trying to avoid earlier. You know God because God told you. How do you know that it was God who told you? Because God told you, ad infinitum. I don't wish to discredit it. I call it faith.

Quote:
But note, I never said I could prove it. But just because I can't prove it doesn't mean I don't know.
But note , you can't/haven't supported it with evidence or argument. Again, I call that faith.


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Neither did I ever say you were all bad.
So you refuse to acknowledge any areas of agreement with me and yet you refuse to say one way or another whether I am "all bad." How gracious of you! Seems you're doing what you accused me of i.e. being evasive.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:39 AM   #1508
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How do you define "liberal"?
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Liberal: A liberal is a person who values personal freedom to the point of questioning traditional beliefs so that he/she can be liberated from them. Liberals prefer new ideas to old ones, mostly because they hope the new ideas will not place as much of a moral burden on them. They are always looking for ways to be morally liberated, and sympathize with "alternative" lifestyles which seek to do the same. Thus they take great relish in catching conservatives in some hypocrisy because they feel this discredits the conservative's traditional values and thus furthers their emancipation from those values. That's basically what's going on here on this alternative forum.
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Where did you get that definition?
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You asked me for MY definition. That's it. Take it or leave it.
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You haven't supported your definition with evidence or reason. I'll leave it until you do.
Don't you just love these "intelligent" conversations with liberals. Obviously he just doesn't like your answer!

Liberals just can't believe that someone thinks differently than they do. (Like your comment about that guy in NY who voted for Dukakis.) How they love to lecture the public about PC semantics.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:46 AM   #1509
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Don't you just love these "intelligent" conversations with liberals. Obviously he just doesn't like your answer!
True, Igzy probably doesn't like my answer. But, he may be able to explain himself. Give him a chance.
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Old 10-26-2015, 11:07 AM   #1510
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True, Igzy probably doesn't like my answer. But, he may be able to explain himself. Give him a chance.
Actually, though you may not like it, his definition is great. It matches how I have felt for a long time, especially the liberal lust to be "morally liberated" from personal accountability to God for our behavior.
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:26 PM   #1511
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No amount of reason or evidence is going to be enough for someone who is willfully blind.

And before you accuse me of the same, ask yourself what I have to gain by defending what I defend. I would like it if I could believe what you want to believe. I'd be free from the constraints of the Bible. Whoopee! I could stop going to church and reading the Bible and just claim to have a great "relationship with God" and tell everyone who contradicted me that they don't have any "reason or evidence" otherwise, just like you do. What a deal! Isn't life grand when it's according to what one wants to be true?!

Skeptics, on the other hand, have every short-term, self-centered reason to deny the Christian faith, which is exactly why they do it.

Now, 1...2...3 let me hear it: "You haven't shown any evidence...."

Kick! There goes the can down the road...
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Old 10-26-2015, 12:47 PM   #1512
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No amount of reason or evidence is going to be enough for someone who is willfully blind.
Reminds me of that stanza from the Moody Blues song, "I Know You're Out There Somewhere," ...
The words that I remember
From my childhood still are true
That there's none so blind
As those who will not see
And to those who lack the courage
And say it's dangerous to try
Well they just don't know
That love eternal will not be denied
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I'm sure OBW will like this.
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Old 10-26-2015, 01:39 PM   #1513
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C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce should be required reading for everyone. It is a short novel about a man who finds himself standing at a dreary bus stop, and proceeds to catch a bus to hell. Hell in this story is not fire and brimstone, but a dismal place where everyone leads frustrating and unsatisfying existences of self-deception.

The man meets several of the self-damned, and each exhibits in his or her own way the self-righteousness, rationalization, blame-shifting and unwillingness to repent that got them there and keeps them there.

One in particular is rather interesting. This pleasant but obsequious ghost actually claims to be seeking enlightenment, but does not believe in Hell (while actually being there). He says he has organized a "Theological Society", claiming there is "plenty of intellectual life" there, but admits it is not of great quality. He says he is developing a theory of how Jesus was a relatively young man when he died and would have outgrown his earlier views as he matured, stating:
"What a different Christianity we might have if only the Founder had reached his full stature!"
He says other things that sound just as eerily like the prattle we witness on this forum. For example:
"Exists? What does Existence mean? You will keep on implying some sort of static, ready-made reality which is, so to speak, "there", and to which our minds have simply to conform. These great mysteries cannot be approached that way. ... God, for me, is something purely spiritual."
And on and on. It could have been a couple of our posters talking and no one here would have blinked an eye.

You can't make this stuff up, folks.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:24 PM   #1514
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"There are people who honestly believe, with all that is within them, that the God of the Bible has granted them the right to own an object that did not exist in biblical times." Where is their faith?

http://reverbpress.com/religion/peop...ns-name-jesus/
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:37 PM   #1515
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No amount of reason or evidence is going to be enough for someone who is willfully blind.

And before you accuse me of the same, ask yourself what I have to gain by defending what I defend. I would like it if I could believe what you want to believe. I'd be free from the constraints of the Bible. Whoopee! I could stop going to church and reading the Bible and just claim to have a great "relationship with God" and tell everyone who contradicted me that they don't have any "reason or evidence" otherwise, just like you do. What a deal! Isn't life grand when it's according to what one wants to be true?!

Skeptics, on the other hand, have every short-term, self-centered reason to deny the Christian faith, which is exactly why they do it.

Now, 1...2...3 let me hear it: "You haven't shown any evidence...."

Kick! There goes the can down the road...
When have I denied the faith? I simply have maintained that what you think you know, you know by faith. And you have given me no reason to think otherwise. What's your problem with faith vs. knowledge? All your "no" judgments were on propositions with greater or lesser probability. In many the probability is 50% or less. But, you, sometime in your life leaped across the chasm of uncertainty to faith. Hallelujah, so did I. You act about faith like these NRA fans who fear someone is going to take your guns away. Only you know what you're afraid of but it seems to me you're preaching a gospel of fear. But, I don't want to hinder your faith. I made the leap myself. It is as you say a choice and a commitment. I made my commitment to Jesus and I mean to carry it out by God's grace through faith and what light I have been given. I won't let you hinder me either.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:55 PM   #1516
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C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce should be required reading for everyone. It is a short novel about a man who finds himself standing at a dreary bus stop, and proceeds to catch a bus to hell. Hell in this story is not fire and brimstone, but a dismal place where everyone leads frustrating and unsatisfying existences of self-deception.

The man meets several of the self-damned, and each exhibits in his or her own way the self-righteousness, rationalization, blame-shifting and unwillingness to repent that got them there and keeps them there.

One in particular is rather interesting. This pleasant but obsequious ghost actually claims to be seeking enlightenment, but does not believe in Hell (while actually being there). He says he has organized a "Theological Society", claiming there is "plenty of intellectual life" there, but admits it is not of great quality. He says he is developing a theory of how Jesus was a relatively young man when he died and would have outgrown his earlier views as he matured, stating:
"What a different Christianity we might have if only the Founder had reached his full stature!"
He says other things that sound just as eerily like the prattle we witness on this forum. For example:
"Exists? What does Existence mean? You will keep on implying some sort of static, ready-made reality which is, so to speak, "there", and to which our minds have simply to conform. These great mysteries cannot be approached that way. ... God, for me, is something purely spiritual."
And on and on. It could have been a couple of our posters talking and no one here would have blinked an eye.

You can't make this stuff up, folks.
We can't all be C.S. Lewis. In fact none of us can be. I learned that trying to be Witness Lee.
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:09 AM   #1517
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When have I denied the faith?
That wasn't my point. My point was that if your interests are short-term and selfish you have incentive to try to avoid the Christian faith because it requires short-term sacrifices for long-term gains. Most skeptics don't seem interested in the long term. My point was that I have no selfish reason to defend the Christian faith. I'm not trying to "set myself free" from some code that is constricting me. I defend it because I think it is true.

Skeptics and liberals on the other hand (not necessarily you) generally seem to be interested in setting themselves free from traditional moral constraints. They seem to believe happiness is to be found in not being subject to too many moral limitations. Defense of sexual "freedom" is a classic example. Their attitude is always that they are so much more tolerant and sophisticated that those "narrow-minded" conservatives. This seems more like bluster than assurance.

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What's your problem with faith vs. knowledge?
My problem is with your seeming take on the subject. Faith is not the absence of knowledge, it is the extension of it, the logical consequence of it. Faith is what you believe based on what you know, based on the evidence. Faith is not blind. Faith is eminently logical.

We all make "leaps" of faith every day about many things, common and profound, that cannot be proved. We make them because we know the probability they are correct is very high. But it isn't our faith that causes them to be real. They are real already. The reason our faith is rewarded is because what we believe is based on reality. And the reason our faith is based on reality is because of some correct knowledge, albeit partial, that we proceeded from in faith. We don't just proceed from blind guesses.

Once you believe as a Christian, your faith is confirmed by real experiences again and again. There are times when we must proceed without feeling. But most of the time we have spiritual experiences that confirm our faith. We don't just proceed blindly all the time. God gives us confirmations that we are on the right track. Those experiences add to our knowledge, which in turn adds to our faith.

Quote:
All your "no" judgments were on propositions with greater or lesser probability. In many the probability is 50% or less.
Not to my thinking. To my thinking the probability for the inverse of each of those questions is quite high, or I wouldn't have stated so. You might disagree. That's your prerogative. I think if you do your judgement is suspect. But anyway we each have to make our own assessments. But, see, this is where knowledge comes in. Faith is never based in not knowing anything. There is always something you know that your faith extends from.

The reason I believe in God is because I believe it is highly likely he exists. That faith has been rewarded.

The reason I believe in Jesus is because I believe it is highly likely he is the Son of God. That faith has also been rewarded.

The reason I believe in the Bible is because I believe it is highly likely it is the word of God. That faith has been rewarded, too.

Faith is the highest form of reason, the logical consequence of all that you know.
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Old 10-27-2015, 12:15 PM   #1518
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I don't think God would expect us to believe anything we are not fairly certain of. He doesn't expect us to bet our lives on long shots, and he certainly doesn't view himself as a long shot. The reason he expect us to have faith is because the clues he has left us all add up to a fairly plain, singular, dependable answer.

Skeptics don't want to be fairly certain, they want to be 100% certain. In other words, they don't want to make a leap of faith. But some of them probably really don't even want 100%, undeniable, in-your-face certainty, or for that matter even believe it is possible. They just want an excuse to defer belief. 100% certainty is possible. It's just that when it comes it will be too late to decide.

The bottom line is that God loves us like children, but treats us like grown-ups. He leaves sufficient clues and expects us to make informed decisions from them. Claiming the clues overall aren't conclusive is to not respond in a mature manner, as well as to not respond with childlike faith.
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:19 AM   #1519
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That wasn't my point. My point was that if your interests are short-term and selfish you have incentive to try to avoid the Christian faith because it requires short-term sacrifices for long-term gains. Most skeptics don't seem interested in the long term. My point was that I have no selfish reason to defend the Christian faith. I'm not trying to "set myself free" from some code that is constricting me. I defend it because I think it is true.
You contradicted yourself in that brief paragraph. Your selfish reason for defending the Christian faith is that you suppose it will bring you "long term gains".
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Old 10-28-2015, 07:05 AM   #1520
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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
You contradicted yourself in that brief paragraph. Your selfish reason for defending the Christian faith is that you suppose it will bring you "long term gains".
There is good selfishness and bad. God doesn't begrudge us for running to gain the prize. In fact, he commands us to. Short-term selfishness that sacrifices the long-term goal is what is bad. People who try to deny the Christian faith so they can indulge in sin in this life do just that.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:48 AM   #1521
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There is good selfishness and bad. God doesn't begrudge us for running to gain the prize. In fact, he commands us to. Short-term selfishness that sacrifices the long-term goal is what is bad. People who try to deny the Christian faith so they can indulge in sin in this life do just that.
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My point was that I have no selfish reason to defend the Christian faith.
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There is good selfishness and bad.
But, you claimed you had no selfish reason. That was an absolute statement including good or bad. You slipped.
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Old 10-28-2015, 10:02 AM   #1522
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But, you claimed you had no selfish reason. That was an absolute statement including good or bad. You slipped.
I apologize if you read it that way. But I did make the point about short versus long term, which puts my point in context. I know what I meant. But I'm glad to have the opportunity to clear it up.

I'm on record on this board making the point that "selfishness" in line with God's ultimate goal is not bad. Utter selflessness, not caring about oneself in any way, shape or form, is a symptom of a very sick mind. God tells us to love our neighbor "as ourselves." How can we do that if we don't love ourselves at some level? I don't really call that selfishness. More like rational self-interest.

If you read all my posts carefully, as of course you should, you'd understand my point of view better.
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:32 AM   #1523
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If you read all my posts carefully, as of course you should, you'd understand my point of view better.
We all can claim "I know what I meant" every time we post, no matter how illogical what we post.

You made a categorical statement, that you then contradicted. Write your posts more carefully and you may contradict yourself less.
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:51 AM   #1524
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We all can claim "I know what I meant" every time we post, no matter how illogical what we post.

You made a categorical statement, that you then contradicted. Write your posts more carefully and you may contradict yourself less.
Is that all you've got today, Mr. Know-it-All?
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Old 10-28-2015, 01:51 PM   #1525
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Is that all you've got today, Mr. Know-it-All?
...said the man who claims he knows he knows he knows but can't explain it.
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:55 PM   #1526
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...said the man who claims he knows he knows he knows but can't explain it.
Whatever that means...
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:59 PM   #1527
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...said the man who claims he knows he knows he knows but can't explain it.
Look, we disagree on a lot of things. But let's at least give each other fair credit for having points. If one of us is going to go to hell, at least he/I could do so with dignity. Okay? Let's talk about ideas.

What did you think about what I said about the connection between faith and knowledge?
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Old 10-28-2015, 05:07 PM   #1528
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Look, we disagree on a lot of things. But let's at least give each other fair credit for having points. If one of us is going to go to hell, at least he/I could do so with dignity. Okay? Let's talk about ideas.

What did you think about what I said about the connection between faith and knowledge?
You appropriated the idea that faith requires a leap that I introduced on this thread. If we agree that a leap is required, then it's down to how great a leap? You're attempting a kind of natural theology. In your estimate, God is highly probable so the leap is tiny. But, what you are calling evidence is ambiguous with respect to your assertion. It's data that requires interpretation. People interpret it differently for a wide variety of reasons. Therefore, there is wide disagreement among intelligent people on the subject. I believe you are convinced. But, I don't find your argument convincing.

To me faith is not a matter of knowledge but of trust. I trust in God. I didn't reason my way to God. If circumstances were different perhaps I wouldn't have come at all. My trust in God exists as much in spite of the "evidence" as because of it.

If you want to continue arguing for your position, take any one of your arguments for God and show how it is beyond interpretive ambiguity and greater than 50% probable.
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Old 10-28-2015, 06:07 PM   #1529
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But, what you are calling evidence is ambiguous with respect to your assertion..
That's just your opinion, or your assertion. I don't think it's ambiguous at all. I think it paints a very clear picture. That's why I believe it.

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I believe you are convinced. But, I don't find your argument convincing.
That doesn't bother me because you don't find much of anything convincing.

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To me faith is not a matter of knowledge but of trust. I trust in God.
Isn't your trust in God based on some knowledge of him? Put another way, why would you trust in God if you know nothing about him?

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If you want to continue arguing for your position, take any one of your arguments for God and show how it is beyond interpretive ambiguity and greater than 50% probable.
Whose standard of what is interpretively ambiguious? Mine, or yours?
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:17 PM   #1530
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Isn't your trust in God based on some knowledge of him? Put another way, why would you trust in God if you know nothing about him?
I wouldn't say no. It's based on intuition which is a kind of knowledge. You feel it in your gut, or your heart or bones, so to speak.


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Whose standard of what is interpretively ambiguous? Mine, or yours?
Well, of course you have to go by your standard and of course I may disagree. It's a tall hurdle to get over and the multitude of religious and non-religious POVs testify to that. There's no consensus. Why not just give up and admit that God is totally a matter of faith? After all the Bible says "The just shall live by faith." It doesn't say they'll live by knowledge.
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Old 10-28-2015, 08:41 PM   #1531
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I wouldn't say no. It's based on intuition which is a kind of knowledge. You feel it in your gut, or your heart or bones, so to speak.
Exactly! But don't you treat it like knowledge, for all practical purposes? That's what I meant by revelation. It's something you just know. It's first principle, self-evident stuff. At its base knowledge is just knowing. Do we need to be able to explain how we know to know we know? Is knowing contingent upon being able to prove it to someone else? Can someone else veto our knowledge because we can't convince them of it? What if they are insincere with their objection? Someone can always sneer and say, 'You can't prove how you know.' But you know what you know. The only question you have to ask yourself is "Am I being completely honest with myself." If you can say yes then shouldn't you go with it? Why let someone who doesn't understand what you see hold you back?

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Why not just give up and admit that God is totally a matter of faith? After all the Bible says "The just shall live by faith." It doesn't say they'll live by knowledge.
Because knowing is involved. The Bible says eternal life is knowing God. I think you need both. Faith leads us to knowing, which leads us to love, which leads us to more knowing thus more faith and love. It's like a feedback loop. We encounter and know God, which causes us to have faith, the faith leads to more knowing, which leads to more faith, and so on. 1 Cor 13 may be implying that faith and hope will someday no longer be needed, and only love will continue. Love, and knowing.
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Old 10-28-2015, 09:31 PM   #1532
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Here's a question for you, zeek. Does something have to be true for you to know it?

In other words, if you think you know something, but it's false, did you really know it?

Isn't something being true or not separate from the knowing of it?
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:31 PM   #1533
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Exactly! But don't you treat it like knowledge, for all practical purposes? That's what I meant by revelation. It's something you just know. It's first principle, self-evident stuff. At its base knowledge is just knowing. Do we need to be able to explain how we know to know we know? Is knowing contingent upon being able to prove it to someone else? Can someone else veto our knowledge because we can't convince them of it? What if they are insincere with their objection? Someone can always sneer and say, 'You can't prove how you know.' But you know what you know. The only question you have to ask yourself is "Am I being completely honest with myself." If you can say yes then shouldn't you go with it? Why let someone who doesn't understand what you see hold you back?
The intuition can't be conclusively verified logically or empirically. I have faith that it is true that I am "a child of God" as the intuition would make me. The intuition corresponds with what Paul says in I Cor 13...."we know in part". The same passage promises full understanding will come.



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Because knowing is involved. The Bible says eternal life is knowing God. I think you need both. Faith leads us to knowing, which leads us to love, which leads us to more knowing thus more faith and love. It's like a feedback loop. We encounter and know God, which causes us to have faith, the faith leads to more knowing, which leads to more faith, and so on. 1 Cor 13 may be implying that faith and hope will someday no longer be needed, and only love will continue. Love, and knowing.
Faith substantiates the intuition. As Anselm said "And I do not seek to understand that I may believe but believe that I might understand. For this too I believe since, unless I first believe, I shall not understand."
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Old 10-29-2015, 01:37 PM   #1534
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Here's a question for you, zeek. Does something have to be true for you to know it?
That's tricky. If the thing is a proposition, I can know it even if it's false.

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In other words, if you think you know something, but it's false, did you really know it?
Again, if the thing is a proposition, I can know a false proposition.

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Isn't something being true or not separate from the knowing of it?
Sure. Otherwise nothing new could ever be discovered. Every unknown thing is true regardless of being unknown. Where are you going with this?
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Old 10-30-2015, 02:30 AM   #1535
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The intuition can't be conclusively verified logically or empirically. I have faith that it is true that I am "a child of God" as the intuition would make me. The intuition corresponds with what Paul says in I Cor 13...."we know in part". The same passage promises full understanding will come.

Faith substantiates the intuition. As Anselm said "And I do not seek to understand that I may believe but believe that I might understand. For this too I believe since, unless I first believe, I shall not understand."
So you are saying we will not "know in full" until it all is verified logically and empirically for us? That will be our ultimate experience? Sounds rather boring.

I think you place a little too much value on what can be shown "logically" or "empirically." In the first place, what makes you think that your sense of logic is foolproof, or even matches reality? In the second, what makes you think your ability to recognize what is truly empirical is likewise? Some kind of faith is required just to believe your ability to evaluate those things is dependable.

Regardless, I think I already have strong logical and empirical evidence. My evaluation of what I observe makes great sense to me, and my personal experience of God is confirmed every day. I have both logical and empirical demonstration that what I believe is real. It's not even close to 50-50 as far as I'm concerned. Is it 100%? Well, one can always introduce some doubt. All you have to do is ask if perhaps you are delusional. But that's true of anything, no matter how it's seemingly been logically or empirically verified.

I like the Anselm quote. It emphasizes that there is an element of faith in all knowledge--if only faith that we are able to know anything at all or evaluate reality accurately. Perhaps there will always be a need for some elementary faith. How will you ultimately know anything with 100% certainty? Because God tells you? Won't you will still need faith to believe him.

Maybe only God can have absolute certainty about anything. Maybe we will always need some kind of faith. Maybe the kind of certainty philosophers seek is not meant for us. But if God is good then that's a good thing. It means he meant us to live by faith, not certainty. So maybe we should stop looking for it or acting like the lack of it is a chink in the armor of these things we are led to believe. And maybe we should stop making such a big deal about it. Like I've always said, we need faith to believe the floor will support us when we get out of the bed in the morning. So why should the need for faith in God bother us so much?

Here's the thing: If we had absolute certainty, then life would not be a character test to us, because we would always know exactly what to do. It would be like playing a game where you knew exactly how everything will turn out. What would be the point? The fact that we have to weigh matters, consider pros and cons, keep our eyes on our goals, and monitor our honesty about our true convictions, is what makes life meaningful. It matters what we decide. But if we had certainty we wouldn't ever need to decide anything. It would all be laid out for us plain as day. No test. No game. No challenge. No fun. No point.
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Old 10-30-2015, 04:15 AM   #1536
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Believer: "I know that I know that I know."

Skeptic: "I don't know that I don't know that I don't know."


Bertrand Russell: “Skepticism, while logically impeccable, is psychologically impossible, and there is an element of frivolous insincerity in any philosophy which pretends to accept it."
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:09 AM   #1537
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Maybe only God can have absolute certainty about anything. Maybe we will always need some kind of faith. Maybe the kind of certainty philosophers seek is not meant for us.
Unless we can know the future, as God alone does, we will never have the absolute certainty which the doubters demand.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:08 PM   #1538
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So you are saying we will not "know in full" until it all is verified logically and empirically for us? That will be our ultimate experience? Sounds rather boring.
No. I'm saying that our intuitions regarding ultimate reality cannot be conclusively verified in this life. Paul posits ultimate reality but he understands that it cannot be known as it is in itself. Presumably God knows Himself that way. With our finite powers of logic and perception we can't. I have defined Ultimate Reality as God which is what Paul and I are talking about. I don't know why you find God boring but, suit yourself.

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I think you place a little too much value on what can be shown "logically" or "empirically." In the first place, what makes you think that your sense of logic is foolproof, or even matches reality?In the second, what makes you think your ability to recognize what is truly empirical is likewise? Some kind of faith is required just to believe your ability to evaluate those things is dependable.
Experience has taught me that my logic and powers of observation match reality imperfectly. [Paul says that too: " For our knowledge is imperfect"] If they didn't somewhat match them, I wouldn't be able to adapt to the physical and human environment in order to survive. But, I make mistakes in logic and perception. And my POV is limited. So, I don't have God's POV. Even the Bible, if it is the inerrant Word of God can't give me that because I have to interpret it with my imperfect mind. I have already acknowledged that faith is involved so I don't know why you continue to argue as if I was denying that point.



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Regardless, I think I already have strong logical and empirical evidence. My evaluation of what I observe makes great sense to me, and my personal experience of God is confirmed every day. I have both logical and empirical demonstration that what I believe is real. It's not even close to 50-50 as far as I'm concerned. Is it 100%? Well, one can always introduce some doubt. All you have to do is ask if perhaps you are delusional. But that's true of anything, no matter how it's seemingly been logically or empirically verified.
Well, earlier on you claimed your theology was based on knowledge. Now you admit to an element of faith is necessary. We don't agree about how much, that's all. I found your original argument unconvincing, that's all.

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I like the Anselm quote. It emphasizes that there is an element of faith in all knowledge--if only faith that we are able to know anything at all or evaluate reality accurately. Perhaps there will always be a need for some elementary faith. How will you ultimately know anything with 100% certainty? Because God tells you? Won't you will still need faith to believe him. Maybe only God can have absolute certainty about anything. Maybe we will always need some kind of faith. Maybe the kind of certainty philosophers seek is not meant for us. But if God is good then that's a good thing. It means he meant us to live by faith, not certainty. So maybe we should stop looking for it or acting like the lack of it is a chink in the armor of these things we are led to believe. And maybe we should stop making such a big deal about it. Like I've always said, we need faith to believe the floor will support us when we get out of the bed in the morning. So why should the need for faith in God bother us so much?
It doesn't bother me. I accept that's the way it is. You're the one who claimed he knew; so maybe it bothered you.

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Here's the thing: If we had absolute certainty, then life would not be a character test to us, because we would always know exactly what to do. It would be like playing a game where you knew exactly how everything will turn out. What would be the point? The fact that we have to weigh matters, consider pros and cons, keep our eyes on our goals, and monitor our honesty about our true convictions, is what makes life meaningful. It matters what we decide. But if we had certainty we wouldn't ever need to decide anything. It would all be laid out for us plain as day. No test. No game. No challenge. No fun. No point.
All true. Hooray for the way it is.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:25 PM   #1539
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Believer: "I know that I know that I know."

Skeptic: "I don't know that I don't know that I don't know."


Bertrand Russell: “Skepticism, while logically impeccable, is psychologically impossible, and there is an element of frivolous insincerity in any philosophy which pretends to accept it."
Russell was an atheist. He didn't believe in God or immortality and didn't think that Christ was the best or wisest of men. He argued against the argument from design, and favored Darwin's theories. Russell also expressed doubt over the historical existence of Jesus and questioned the morality of religion, which is, in his view, predominantly based on fear. So maybe in the above quote he was talking about radical skepticism that denies any knowledge is possible. In any case, I don't hold that position, so it's irrelevant to my position.
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Old 10-30-2015, 12:59 PM   #1540
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So maybe in the above quote he was talking about radical skepticism that denies any knowledge is possible. In any case, I don't hold that position, so it's irrelevant to my position.
That's what he was talking about. However, I don't think it's totally irrelevant because Russell's point was basically that we do know some things and we know we know. In other words, you can make the logical argument that we cannot not know, but in practically experience we do know. So any skeptic, radical or not, can easily hide behind the "we can't know" argument for things that can be known.

What is irrelevant to our discussion is Russell's stance on religion.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:18 PM   #1541
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Well, earlier on you claimed your theology was based on knowledge. Now you admit to an element of faith is necessary. We don't agree about how much, that's all. I found your original argument unconvincing, that's all.

It doesn't bother me. I accept that's the way it is. You're the one who claimed he knew; so maybe it bothered you.

You're recalling what I've shared in a rather roughshod way. My beliefs are based in both faith and knowledge. I believe the Bible is the word of God. But my belief that the whole book is inspired is more faith than something I can claim to know. But my belief in God is based on more than faith. I don't think it's remotely possible God doesn't exist. I've experienced God as much as I've experienced sunshine. I know the sun exists and I know God exists. The fact that I've substantiated God with my spiritual senses rather than my physical ones does not make his existence any less empirical as far as I'm concerned. You might disagree, but that doesn't bother me because I know it's a standard philosophical position that the natural senses are more reliable than spiritual ones, but that position is assumed by those who never bothered to use their spiritual senses or even don't believe they exist. I'm sure a blind man can make a "logical argument" that the moon cannot be proven to exist, because he can't see it.

So some things I feel I know, and some I need to take on faith. It's a combination. I know God exists. But the kind of God he is, that he is love and has my best interests at heart all the time, is a faith matter. Just like I know my wife exists, but take her love for me by faith, even though she demonstrates it a lot.

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It doesn't bother me. I accept that's the way it is. You're the one who claimed he knew; so maybe it bothered you.
Seems to me it bothers you a lot.

Maybe you can tell me some things that you really know, and how you know them.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:24 PM   #1542
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Skeptics don't want to be fairly certain, they want to be 100% certain. In other words, they don't want to make a leap of faith. But some of them probably really don't even want 100%, undeniable, in-your-face certainty, or for that matter even believe it is possible. They just want an excuse to defer belief. 100% certainty is possible. It's just that when it comes it will be too late to decide.
That's not a very nice, or accurate, thing to say about me.

I am truly a skeptic. But not a "debunker." There is a difference.

A skeptic seeks proof. And while there is faith involved, I see proof.

However, there are many things that Christians teach that still get my skeptical side going.

And skepticism is not about 100% certainty. At least not true skepticism. It is about obtaining facts and weighing them. Ranking the uncertain from plausible to implausible. Unfortunately, we do not all agree on what is plausible.
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:48 PM   #1543
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With God all things are plausible
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Old 10-30-2015, 01:50 PM   #1544
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That's not a very nice, or accurate, thing to say about me.

I am truly a skeptic. But not a "debunker." There is a difference.

A skeptic seeks proof. And while there is faith involved, I see proof.

However, there are many things that Christians teach that still get my skeptical side going.

And skepticism is not about 100% certainty. At least not true skepticism. It is about obtaining facts and weighing them. Ranking the uncertain from plausible to implausible. Unfortunately, we do not all agree on what is plausible.
Yeah, I wasn't necessarily putting you in that category. But I have seen your arguments sort of sway over that way from time to time. We all tend to take "by faith" what we want to be true and "demand proof" for what we don't want to be true, all along hoping we don't get the proof.

I understand wanting "proof" in the casual sense of the word. But most of the time we don't get real proof for much. We do get evidence though. But sometimes even strong evidence is not enough for the person who wants to hide behind skepticism. So they keep demanding "proof," because they can always deny they have it and thus exempt themselves from the idea.

Take for example the idea that the whole Bible is, for all practical purpose, inspired by God. (I don't like the term "inerrant", though I wouldn't argue against it). To me that's a faith matter, but it's backed up by facts. Attempts to subvert the Bible are big failures. There's something pretty special about that book. And it seems any quest to pick and choose the inspired verses is doomed to failure. So why not just accept the whole thing as inspired and then use honest interpretation to put all the pieces together?

But some people can't resist trying to decide which parts are inspired. Usually because they personally don't like some parts. Those are the parts they usually decide aren't inspired, the parts they don't like. Funny how divine inspiration and personal taste just happen to line up.
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Old 10-30-2015, 03:40 PM   #1545
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Experience has taught me that my logic and powers of observation match reality imperfectly. [Paul says that too: " For our knowledge is imperfect"] If they didn't somewhat match them, I wouldn't be able to adapt to the physical and human environment in order to survive. But, I make mistakes in logic and perception. And my POV is limited. So, I don't have God's POV. Even the Bible, if it is the inerrant Word of God can't give me that because I have to interpret it with my imperfect mind. I have already acknowledged that faith is involved so I don't know why you continue to argue as if I was denying that point.
Sorry, I did not intend to do that. I guess what I'm trying to determine is... what do you know?
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Old 10-30-2015, 06:42 PM   #1546
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I understand wanting "proof" in the casual sense of the word. But most of the time we don't get real proof for much. We do get evidence though. But sometimes even strong evidence is not enough for the person who wants to hide behind skepticism. So they keep demanding "proof," because they can always deny they have it and thus exempt themselves from the idea.
You have claimed someone is demanding proof over and over. I challenge you to show where I have asked you to prove one thing since you have come on this thread.
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Old 10-30-2015, 08:11 PM   #1547
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Sorry, I did not intend to do that. I guess what I'm trying to determine is... what do you know?
No problem. I know how everything seems to me with absolute certainty.
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:19 AM   #1548
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You have claimed someone is demanding proof over and over. I challenge you to show where I have asked you to prove one thing since you have come on this thread.
So you're demanding proof that you've demanded proof?

Maybe it's something you do unconsciously. But it's intertwined with your discussion style, as above.
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:23 AM   #1549
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No problem. I know how everything seems to me with absolute certainty.
Sorry, does the above have a typo? "Seems to me with" doesn't make sense.
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:37 AM   #1550
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So you're demanding proof that you've demanded proof?

Maybe it's something you do unconsciously. But it's intertwined with your discussion style, as above.
Not proof just evidence.
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Old 10-31-2015, 09:38 AM   #1551
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Sorry, does the above have a typo? "Seems to me with" doesn't make sense.
It makes sense to me.
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Old 10-31-2015, 10:18 AM   #1552
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It makes sense to me.
Can you please rephrase it because I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Thanks.
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Old 10-31-2015, 12:12 PM   #1553
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Can you please rephrase it because I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Thanks.
If I was Igzy I might say "take it or leave it." But, since I'm not: I know with absolute certainty how everything seems to me .
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Old 10-31-2015, 03:21 PM   #1554
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If I was Igzy I might say "take it or leave it." But, since I'm not: I know with absolute certainty how everything seems to me .
I know with uncertainty that you seem especially obnoxious today.

But Happy Halloween anyway!
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Old 10-31-2015, 10:53 PM   #1555
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I know with uncertainty that you seem especially obnoxious today.

But Happy Halloween anyway!
Thanks. Fortunately it's over.
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Old 11-01-2015, 12:56 PM   #1556
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November is Gratitude month. I'm thankful that I saw two beautiful fawns playing together on my way home last night. What are you thankful for?
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Old 11-01-2015, 03:18 PM   #1557
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Are you an annihilationist and if so why?

http://reknew.org/2008/01/are-you-an...and-if-so-why/
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Old 11-01-2015, 07:03 PM   #1558
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Are you an annihilationist and if so why?

http://reknew.org/2008/01/are-you-an...and-if-so-why/
Well I guess I'm an annihilationist cuz the Bible says so (if that can be trusted).

But what a disappointment. Cuz if I was headed to hell I was hopin' to meet some friends and deceased family members, and maybe even meet Mark Twain there. But now, if I'm destined that way, I'm just gonna be gone, annihilated, and kaput, and so is all the others I hoped to meet up with.

But I guess there's some comfort in knowing that I'll finally be done with this awful crappy troublesome mortal body.

Thanks for posting it.
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Old 11-02-2015, 07:55 AM   #1559
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November is Gratitude month. I'm thankful that I saw two beautiful fawns playing together on my way home last night. What are you thankful for?
Cool, fall weather.
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Old 11-02-2015, 08:44 AM   #1560
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Cool, fall weather.
Me, otoh, am thankful for this warm, fall weather, with sunshine.

And, btw, gimme a gun for all those deer in my backyard. I got some hungry friends.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:27 AM   #1561
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Yeah, I wasn't necessarily putting you in that category. But I have seen your arguments sort of sway over that way from time to time. We all tend to take "by faith" what we want to be true and "demand proof" for what we don't want to be true, all along hoping we don't get the proof.
You do know I had my tongue planted firmly in my cheek when I wrote that.

But it is true that we are all prone to look for what we want to find. On either side of any argument. Confirmation bias.

I know that I expect the evidence to either prove what I already believe, or at least not provide any reason to reject it. But sometimes it doesn't. And I fight it. I argue with it. But if I am honest, I have to deal with it and not just wipe it away with a pithy statement.

I got where I am today by being willing to change my mind. It is very different from where it was when I left the LCM (1987) and visited any of these forums (late 2005). And it is different from where I was in 2007, 2010, and even 2014. I do not expect that it will remain completely fixed now.

What is interesting is that while all those changes have gone on, I am still a strong believer in Christ and in his salvation. Little of my base theology has changed. But a lot about the periphery, and its importance, has changed.
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Old 11-02-2015, 10:45 AM   #1562
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You do know I had my tongue planted firmly in my cheek when I wrote that.

But it is true that we are all prone to look for what we want to find. On either side of any argument. Confirmation bias.

I know that I expect the evidence to either prove what I already believe, or at least not provide any reason to reject it. But sometimes it doesn't. And I fight it. I argue with it. But if I am honest, I have to deal with it and not just wipe it away with a pithy statement.

I got where I am today by being willing to change my mind. It is very different from where it was when I left the LCM (1987) and visited any of these forums (late 2005). And it is different from where I was in 2007, 2010, and even 2014. I do not expect that it will remain completely fixed now.

What is interesting is that while all those changes have gone on, I am still a strong believer in Christ and in his salvation. Little of my base theology has changed. But a lot about the periphery, and its importance, has changed.
Thanks for sharing your openness to change your mind.

My problem with such change is that I'm a recovering LCMer, which is no problem to most on this board.

But I'm also a recovering fundamentalist, which seems to be a big problem to most on this board.

Last but not least at all on this board I'm a recovering Bible addict. And it seems most out here would like to do an intervention on me over that one.

Bottom line, I've changed much since the local church ... and it hasn't been easy or painless. It hurts when we've discovered we've been wrong. And the depth of pain is dependent upon the level of investment in that wrong.
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Old 11-02-2015, 11:00 AM   #1563
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My problem with such change is that I'm a recovering LCMer, which is no problem to most on this board.

But I'm also a recovering fundamentalist, which seems to be a big problem to most on this board.
I don't think anyone on this board gives a flying hoot whether you are a "fundamentalist" or not.

People would like to know whether you are heretical, however.

But I don't think anyone here thinks that if you are not a fundamentalist you must be heretical. And if you think they think that then you need to lay off the Kentucky moonshine, while posting at least.
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Old 11-02-2015, 09:43 PM   #1564
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I don't think anyone on this board gives a flying hoot whether you are a "fundamentalist" or not.
But will you love me tomorrow

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People would like to know whether you are heretical, however.
Only heresiologists, or so inclined to judge. Then it depends on the so inclined to determine what they deem heresy. And everyone is a heretic to someone. Even you bro Igzy.

Personally I don't inclined to label someone a heretic. I prefer to judge whether the positions they offer stands up to actual evidence or not.

And if I should encounter a heretic, so called, I seek to love the heretic, but hate their heresy, so to speak ... you know, 'love the sinner, hate the sin,' as they say.

I would never support burning them at the stake, either literally or metaphorically.
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Old 11-02-2015, 11:25 PM   #1565
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Continuing with gratitude, I'm grateful that when I turn on a tap and there’s water, and when I flip a switch there’s light.
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Old 11-03-2015, 05:33 AM   #1566
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Only heresiologists, or so inclined to judge. Then it depends on the so inclined to determine what they deem heresy. And everyone is a heretic to someone. Even you bro Igzy.
Then the Bible is inclined to judge, because it clearly teaches that some beliefs or lack thereof can disqualify us from the kingdom.

I don't mind a bit if someone suggests I'm a heretic. I'd like to know if someone thinks that and what their reasoning is. I hope I never get so arrogant that I label everyone who takes exception to what I believe as being "judgmental." I'd rather simply know whether they have a point or not.

This is the stance you have taken. Anyone who is not as liberal as you are is "judgmental." So you are forced to spend half your time (or more) suggesting in all sorts of ways how mean, narrow, backward, non-liberal, judgmental, stupid, hypocritical, etc, etc, all these people are who make you feel uncomfortable. Which probably makes you more judgmental than them. It's kind of a strange way to go about things.

I understand that some people can be over the top with their religions opinions. But this is a online forum. It's where we share ideas. So you have to expect that people are going to express their opinions and debate things. If the only comeback you have for people who believe your beliefs are mistaken is that those people are "judgmental" then you don't have much to go on.

"Heretic" is simply shorthand. If you don't like the word, use another. But the basic idea is valid here, and important. To say otherwise is to say beliefs aren't really important.
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:25 AM   #1567
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Continuing with gratitude, I'm grateful that when I turn on a tap and there’s water, and when I flip a switch there’s light.
Grateful for people who love me enough to put up with me.
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Old 11-03-2015, 12:45 PM   #1568
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Then the Bible is inclined to judge, because it clearly teaches that some beliefs or lack thereof can disqualify us from the kingdom.
Are you talking the first fundamentalist principle here? How about the belief that the Bible is inspired, but only in the sense that the wife of King Lemuel in Proverbs 31:1 (NIV) was inspired?

We all know that the Bible can't judge. Only the living can judge. What was that Paul said about the dead letter?

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I don't mind a bit if someone suggests I'm a heretic. I'd like to know if someone thinks that and what their reasoning is.
What? You? You want to know what others think? I've never noticed.

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I hope I never get so arrogant that I label everyone who takes exception to what I believe as someone who is "judgmental."
But you're getting close? right?

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I'd rather simply know whether they have a point or not.
Sounds pointless to me.

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This is the stance you have taken. [HaHa]
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Anyone who is not as liberal as you are is "judgmental."
I love how you do that. You're gifted at it. Let me see if I can word it. You're saying, "I'm a non-judgmental judgmentalist?" And others. Like this gem: "anti-fanaticism fanatic." Or this doozy: "anti-bully bully."

I guess it's like Nietzsche said, in so many words: "When you fight demons, make sure you don't become one."

Let's move on:

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That's a very defensive stance.
Defensive how?

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It's not one borne of assurance, but insecurity.
I've become pretty secure with insecurity. I just leave it with God. He is sovereign, right?

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So you spend half your time (or more) suggesting in all sorts of ways how mean, narrow, backward, non-liberal, judgmental, stupid, hypocritical, etc, etc, all these people are who make you feel uncomfortable.
Keeps me busy ... keeping up with all my name calling, and seeking news ones all the time. I like Mark Twain's take on it. Something like, "They're human. And that's the worst I can say about them."

And I rarely find myself uncomfortable. Maybe when I'm cutting down and up a dangerous tree. Other than that I'm pretty much devil may care. Surely you've noticed.

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Which probably makes you more judgmental than them. It's kind of a strange way to go about things.
There you go again, messing with words, labels, and definitions.

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I understand that some people can be over the top with their religions opinions. But this is a online forum. It's where we share ideas. So you have to expect that people are going to express their opinions and debate things. If the only comeback you have for people who believe your beliefs are mistaken is that those people are "judgmental" then you don't have much to go on.
You provide plenty to go on.

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"Heretic" is simply shorthand. If you don't like the word, use another. But the basic idea is valid here, and important. To say otherwise is to say beliefs aren't really important.
I stopped liking believing a long time ago. I seek experience. And "heretic" is, and always has been, arbitrary ... and the Bible doesn't settle the question without interpretation ... and that's arbitrary too.
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Old 11-03-2015, 01:05 PM   #1569
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I stopped liking believing a long time ago.
Unfortunately for you reality is not based on what we like or don't like.

And if it's all the same to you, I'll take the Bible over what you "like" when there is a conflict. Nothing personal.

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Sounds pointless to me.
If a belief can keep you from God then I would say there is a point. The Bible clearly says that indeed our beliefs can keep us from God. So there is some "heretical" belief that does matter. The Bible is clear on the most important one, if you reject Jesus as Savior and Lord you don't have God. That's as plain as day and there is nothing arbitrary about it.

The bottom line is this: Anyone who truly has a relationship with God also has a relationship with Jesus, because Jesus is God. Anyone who has studied Jesus and rejects him doesn't know God, no matter how much they claim to. These are Jesus' own words. He said if you knew my Father you would know Me. He said no one comes to the Father but by Him. The degree to which you reject Jesus is the degree to which God will be a stranger to you.

Rejecting that idea is to embrace a very real and deadly heresy. No, it's not pointless at all.
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Old 11-03-2015, 02:31 PM   #1570
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Unfortunately for you reality is not based on what we like or don't like.

And if it's all the same to you, I'll take the Bible over what you "like" when there is a conflict. Nothing personal.


If a belief can keep you from God then I would say there is a point. The Bible clearly says that indeed our beliefs can keep us from God. So there is some "heretical" belief that does matter. The Bible is clear on the most important one, if you reject Jesus as Savior and Lord you don't have God. That's as plain as day and there is nothing arbitrary about it.

The bottom line is this: Anyone who truly has a relationship with God also has a relationship with Jesus, because Jesus is God. Anyone who has studied Jesus and rejects him doesn't know God, no matter how much they claim to. These are Jesus' own words. He said if you knew my Father you would know Me. He said no one comes to the Father but by Him. The degree to which you reject Jesus is the degree to which God will be a stranger to you.

Rejecting that idea is to embrace a very real and deadly heresy. No, it's not pointless at all.
You seem to enjoy making threats and pronouncing judgments. Where do get your authority?

You have already admitted that you can't prove anything. So, obviously you can't prove that you know Jesus or that someone else doesn't.

Except for your self-certainty, for all we know you are the one who doesn't know Jesus or the Father. Who says salvation depends upon accepting "an idea"? I thought it was about accepting a person.

Seems to me like your just making stuff up as you go along. Isn't your real intention to catch someone in one of your precious heresies so you can shut Alternative Views down?
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Old 11-03-2015, 04:49 PM   #1571
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Then the Bible is inclined to judge, because it clearly teaches that some beliefs or lack thereof can disqualify us from the kingdom.
Quick question.

How may things are required to be believed to get into the kingdom?

The trinity as posited by the best Calvinist or Dispensationalist theologians?
Substitutionary atonement?
Calvinism? (Or Arminianism if you are raised differently?)

Or is it primarily to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of the One True God and to obey all that He commanded? (little to none of which was simply doctrinal)

Have we made this all into something so much more than what it is stated as being? For example, Paul said a lot of high theological things. But most of those were not for the purpose of assenting to, but provided as basis for acting, behaving, etc., differently than the readers were. He did not suggest they needed to know more doctrines. Knowing God was in prayer and obedience. It was not in comprehension to and belief in doctrines.

There was a song a few years back. It was sort of convoluted to sing, so I didn't really like it. But its message was really good. At one place it said something like "I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing we've made it, when it's all about you, Jesus." (Maybe called "Heart of Worship" or something like that.)
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:17 PM   #1572
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You seem to enjoy making threats and pronouncing judgments. Where do get your authority?

You have already admitted that you can't prove anything. So, obviously you can't prove that you know Jesus or that someone else doesn't.

Except for your self-certainty, for all we know you are the one who doesn't know Jesus or the Father. Who says salvation depends upon accepting "an idea"? I thought it was about accepting a person.

Seems to me like your just making stuff up as you go along. Isn't your real intention to catch someone in one of your precious heresies so you can shut Alternative Views down?
I was rendered speechless at this post bro OBW. But I don't think that's accepted.

It will prolly just be seen as another of my ploys to dodge, run, and hide from God ... as bro Igzy has it so far.

Bro Igzy is right. I am dodging, running and hiding. But not from God and Jesus. I constantly relate with them, daily, and have been all my life. What I'm running from is doctrine, dogma, the priestly system -- clergy/laity --, and organized systematized religion. Cuz it's been 2000 years and hint none'a'dat ever been settled, nor ever will be.

All that can be done is what bro Igzy is doing -- and so many others down thru history have been doing -- including the Princeton boys, that founded the five fundamentals of fundamentalism -- and Witness Lee did ; and that is, decide on your doctrine, and stand on it for life, as the one and only true doctrine ... that sets apart, and by default, creates a 'we and them' system, or type of tribal identity, and don't let go of it ... and preach it to others with the authority of God. Bro Igzy, and his protégé Untohim, has got it down pat.

And that's so like the local church it creeps me out, and makes the hair on the nap of my neck stand up ; and makes me run.

Now I don't know. And I too, like Igzy, like to know, what others are thinking, and like stuff. But I'm wondering if our bro Igzy hasn't got some of that local church juice still sloshing around in there somewhere.

He hint no different than the rest of us. He just needs love.

And for the record, just because I'm not a fundamentalist doesn't mean I don't love 'em. I love my fundamentalist family members dearly. And they loves me back. We have an understanding.

Love's such a wondrous thing. Wish there was more of it in the world. Wish Jesus had been able to make a major historical paradigm love shift in humankind. But mankind didn't miss a beat, and just kept on as before Jesus. "Thy will be done, on earth as in heaven." I'd like the earth to be like heaven. But doctrine, dogma, and systematized religion isn't gonna get us there, or any closer ... or certainly hasn't so far.
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:56 PM   #1573
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There was a song a few years back. It was sort of convoluted to sing, so I didn't really like it. But its message was really good. At one place it said something like "I'm sorry, Lord, for the thing we've made it, when it's all about you, Jesus." (Maybe called "Heart of Worship" or something like that.)
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Old 11-03-2015, 10:05 PM   #1574
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And that's so like the local church it creeps me out, and makes the hair on the nap of my neck stand up ; and makes me run.
If you pay the extra 3 bucks or so, the gal at Supercuts will take care of that hair on your neck. It's probably only 2 bucks where you live.

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And for the record, just because I'm not a fundamentalist doesn't mean I don't love 'em. I love my fundamentalist family members dearly. And they loves me back. We have an understanding.
Where is Igzy's and my understanding and love? I'm jealous of your fundy family members. I thought we had a good thing going too. But, I'm an old guy, I should have known...Love and understanding is a fickle thing. Oh well. Love is a many splendored thing, isn't it.

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Love's such a wondrous thing.
Opps, I meant wondrous thing!

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Wish Jesus had been able to make a major historical paradigm love shift in humankind.
Actually he did. It's called the Cross. It was the ultimate expression of love by God, which in reality was a major historical paradigm love shift in humankind. But since God did not create robots, God is not forcing us to believe in this paradigm love shift. We have to exercise some FAITH.

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I'd like the earth to be like heaven. But doctrine, dogma, and systematized religion isn't gonna get us there, or any closer ... or certainly hasn't so far.
No, doctrine, dogma and systematized religion isn't gonna get us there or any closer. Thankfully, God does't give a hoot about any of these. In fact, when he sent his only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, he proved that he doesn't care for any of this. This is why Jesus was opposed to, and got in the face of all those doctrinaire, dogmatic and systematic people of his day.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:53 AM   #1575
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How may things are required to be believed to get into the kingdom?
The Bible is pretty clear. You have to have the Son to have the Father, and you have to have the Father to be in the kingdom.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23
I'm not sure what is so offensive about what I'm sharing. Jesus is just God coming to us to be our Savior. He's God's provision to bring us back to him. That's pure love. What's the problem? Why Harold and zeek have such a problem with that I don't know. That's all I'm preaching here.

They seem to want to think you shouldn't need Jesus to get to God. But, sorry guys, the Bible is more than plain that you do.

But I firmly believe you can have the Son without ever having heard of Jesus. Say what?! Yes. If you repent to God genuinely he will receive you and Jesus's work will apply to you. That's general revelation. Jesus isn't a shibboleth or secret pass code.

But he is a test. If you've heard of Jesus, then you should recognize him as God's provision. That's special revelation. And if you don't recognize him, the Bible is clear that you really don't know God. Your claim to be on God's side is a fake. That was the Pharisees' state.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. John 1:10-12
Zeek and Harold have heard enough about Jesus to be accountable for recognizing who he was. Any refusal to do so shows they don't know God like they'd like everyone to think they do. That's not my word, that's what the Bible plainly says. Who should I believe, it or them?

Of course, now on cue they are screaming that I'm some sort of intolerant witch burner, and comparing me to the LCMers, or worse. Egads! They are pulling out all stops!

What's kind of interesting is that I'm just sharing basic Christian teaching. There's nothing new or scandalous about it, unless you are ignorant or expect God on your terms. Love? What's loving about letting someone go off a cliff? As for being like LCMers, zeek and Harold are more that way than me. After all, basic Christian truths weren't good enough for LCMers, they had to redefine most of the orthodoxy and faith to suit themselves. Sounds like zeek and Harold to me. Sounds like the LCM "sloshing around" in you two.

And, no, zeek. Despite your paranoia, I'm not looking for an excuse to shut down Alt Views. I have no authority here. This isn't my board. I'm not a moderator. You are way off base on that one.

By the way, I'm not expecting this position to make me popular. The screaming and ripping of cloaks is to be expected. But as Shakespeare wrote, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:18 AM   #1576
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You have already admitted that you can't prove anything. So, obviously you can't prove that you know Jesus or that someone else doesn't.
zeek, You've been claiming that you don't ask for anything to be proved. Now, before the pixels have cooled on that claim, here you are again demanding proof. Like I said, this is what you do.

Another note. Did you guys expect to have Alt Views here and just have a liberal love-in where you got to misrepresent orthodox Christians without a fight? What did you expect to happen here?

So this is what it's come down to. I'm sharing basic Christian faith, Harold is wailing that I'm a witch burner and an LCMer, and zeek is hiding in his safe house of uncertainty, demanding "proof." And, oh, how the hyperbole is flowing. Is that all you have? What's the point of this Alt Views if that's the best you can do? How about making a solid case that Jesus is not the Son of God? Yes, I know that's much harder than all the self-indulgent bellyaching and evasive generalizing, and given your tendencies probably less fun for you. But how about at least trying?
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Old 11-04-2015, 12:27 PM   #1577
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The Bible is pretty clear. You have to have the Son to have the Father, and you have to have the Father to be in the kingdom.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23
In other words, the requirement, while important, is not long in details. That is what I have begun to see more and more. But when you say it out loud to a lot of our Christian friends, they freak out that you did not insist on their understanding of the trinity, penal substitutionary atonement, or even the virgin birth. (I hope that most can at least accept that as possible, though I would not exclude anyone over it.)

As for the virgin birth, I believe that it is as we have been taught from our childhood. But I do not have a problem with the idea that it was not necessary. Or that it was mostly a sign for the Jews who would understand the second occurrence of Isaiah's prophecy. I don't even necessarily care whether it was meant to be a literal virgin or a "young maiden" though, as I said, I believe it was a virgin. My faith does not rest in the virgin birth. it is not destroyed if we discover that we have misunderstood it all these years.

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I'm not sure what is so offensive about what I'm sharing.
I will assume that this sentence and what follows is not directed particularly at me. It is not offensive to me. I just thought it might be worthwhile to get the otherwise vague object(s) of belief spelled-out, even if just your or my opinions on the subject. I know a lot of people who think that you have to believe one of those rather long statements of faith to be afforded membership at some church or you may not actually be a believer. And I've seen one recently that had a part on angels in terms of the current era. Not saying there are no angels. But a point of belief to specify in your doctrinal statement???? I would probably have to tell them that I have no problem with them believing it as simply true, but that I could not, but would not oppose it.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:30 PM   #1578
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I will assume that this sentence and what follows is not directed particularly at me. It is not offensive to me.
Correct. I was answering your question for the benefit of our skeptics.


I understand that some so-called heresies can seem tedious. But including the need to have the Son to have the Father in that group is a major, major error.

The way I look at it is you cannot have God without having the Son because the Son is God. How can you have God if you rejected God?

I wrote a short story a few years ago. It was titled "Mr. Gates, and Bill." The story was about a guy who claimed to be a big Bill Gates fan. He would always talk about how he respected Bill Gates and how Gates was the greatest innovator and businessman. The guy claimed to know all about him.

Then one day a rather unimpressive-looking fellow moves in next door to this guy. He has unkempt hair and glasses and is kind of goofy looking. His name is Bill. He has some conversations with the guy and says things that only Gates would know, and it becomes increasingly clear to some other neighbors that he must be Bill Gates. But the guy doesn't believe it. He rejects Bill, and goes right along pretending to be a Bill Gates fan.

That's the test of the Jesus. Would you recognize God if he came to earth as a man? Those who do not receive Jesus as the Son of God do not recognize God, and so do not have him, no matter how much they claim to be for God.

That's the bottom line, and quite a fair one I would say.
If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him. John 14:7
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:36 PM   #1579
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The Bible is pretty clear. You have to have the Son to have the Father, and you have to have the Father to be in the kingdom.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23
I'm not sure what is so offensive about what I'm sharing. Jesus is just God coming to us to be our Savior. He's God's provision to bring us back to him. That's pure love. What's the problem? Why Harold and zeek have such a problem with that I don't know. That's all I'm preaching here.
For me believing is easy -- and God designed it that way -- even a little child can believe in God. What is difficult for us is the walk. We are commanded to walk by faith. The walk includes obedience and faithfulness to God and good works towards others, loving and serving those whom we might not even like.

One huge difference between liberal progressives and traditional conservatives is who gets to make the rules. Conservatives generally agree that God ultimately decides on the rules, while liberals disagree with this and want new rules to facilitate their liberties.
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Old 11-04-2015, 09:52 PM   #1580
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zeek, You've been claiming that you don't ask for anything to be proved. Now, before the pixels have cooled on that claim, here you are again demanding proof. Like I said, this is what you do.
I'm not demanding anything. Merely stating the fact that you haven't backed up your knowledge claims.

Quote:
Another note. Did you guys expect to have Alt Views here and just have a liberal love-in where you got to misrepresent orthodox Christians without a fight? What did you expect to happen here?
Who misrepresented what? Be specific.

Quote:
So this is what it's come down to. I'm sharing basic Christian faith, Harold is wailing that I'm a witch burner and an LCMer, and zeek is hiding in his safe house of uncertainty, demanding "proof." And, oh, how the hyperbole is flowing. Is that all you have? What's the point of this Alt Views if that's the best you can do? How about making a solid case that Jesus is not the Son of God? Yes, I know that's much harder than all the self-indulgent bellyaching and evasive generalizing, and given your tendencies probably less fun for you. But how about at least trying?
Why would I want to make a case that Jesus is not Son of God? Where did you ever get the idea I would want to do that? You're making me out to be something I'm not. I'm trying to follow Jesus, not deny him.

With you everything is a zero sum game. You want to make me out to be your enemy. But, you're actually shadow boxing.

Externalization is an unconscious defense mechanism by which an individual "projects" his or her own internal characteristics onto the outside world, particularly onto other people. I think you're externalizing your own conflicts about religion onto me. I've become your shadow self.

Defeating me would make you feel more confidant about your own position. I think that's why you have avoided acknowledging the areas of agreement between us that I have pointed out all along. Maybe we're not all that different and that bothers you.
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:14 PM   #1581
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Hey, bro Igzy not only has nailed zeek and Harold down, but has also nailed God down as well.

Poor God. He grants us free will but He's not allowed the same. God can only do what is prescribed, or proscribed, in books written by fallible men back in the first century.

So we aren't to be robots, but God may as well be one. According to Igzy God is scripted to a T ... and has to do it only as Igzy claims he finds in these early books.

Proof of this is left in his post below:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
The Bible is pretty clear. You have to have the Son to have the Father, and you have to have the Father to be in the kingdom.
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:23
I'm not sure what is so offensive about what I'm sharing. Jesus is just God coming to us to be our Savior. He's God's provision to bring us back to him. That's pure love. What's the problem? Why Harold and zeek have such a problem with that I don't know. That's all I'm preaching here.

They seem to want to think you shouldn't need Jesus to get to God. But, sorry guys, the Bible is more than plain that you do.

But I firmly believe you can have the Son without ever having heard of Jesus. Say what?! Yes. If you repent to God genuinely he will receive you and Jesus's work will apply to you. That's general revelation. Jesus isn't a shibboleth or secret pass code.

But he is a test. If you've heard of Jesus, then you should recognize him as God's provision. That's special revelation. And if you don't recognize him, the Bible is clear that you really don't know God. Your claim to be on God's side is a fake. That was the Pharisees' state.
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God. John 1:10-12
Zeek and Harold have heard enough about Jesus to be accountable for recognizing who he was. Any refusal to do so shows they don't know God like they'd like everyone to think they do. That's not my word, that's what the Bible plainly says. Who should I believe, it or them?

Of course, now on cue they are screaming that I'm some sort of intolerant witch burner, and comparing me to the LCMers, or worse. Egads! They are pulling out all stops!

What's kind of interesting is that I'm just sharing basic Christian teaching. There's nothing new or scandalous about it, unless you are ignorant or expect God on your terms. Love? What's loving about letting someone go off a cliff? As for being like LCMers, zeek and Harold are more that way than me. After all, basic Christian truths weren't good enough for LCMers, they had to redefine most of the orthodoxy and faith to suit themselves. Sounds like zeek and Harold to me. Sounds like the LCM "sloshing around" in you two.

And, no, zeek. Despite your paranoia, I'm not looking for an excuse to shut down Alt Views. I have no authority here. This isn't my board. I'm not a moderator. You are way off base on that one.

By the way, I'm not expecting this position to make me popular. The screaming and ripping of cloaks is to be expected. But as Shakespeare wrote, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:51 AM   #1582
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Originally Posted by Igzy
But I firmly believe you can have the Son without ever having heard of Jesus. Say what?! Yes. If you repent to God genuinely he will receive you and Jesus's work will apply to you. That's general revelation. Jesus isn't a shibboleth or secret pass code.

But he is a test. If you've heard of Jesus, then you should recognize him as God's provision. That's special revelation. And if you don't recognize him, the Bible is clear that you really don't know God. Your claim to be on God's side is a fake. That was the Pharisees' state.

Zeek and Harold have heard enough about Jesus to be accountable for recognizing who he was. Any refusal to do so shows they don't know God like they'd like everyone to think they do. That's not my word, that's what the Bible plainly says. Who should I believe, it or them?
Believe IT? Really? What? Is it It, or Jesus? Or are they the same to you? I believe the latter to you.

I once easily fell for that gambit. That others knew God better than I do. I once thought Witness Lee knew God better than all of us. And I believed the elders knew God better than the rest of us locally.

What I see is a sleight of hand trick. David Koresh was able to gather true believers, willing to died for him, because he had massive amounts of the Bible memorized. Which is not only impressive in and of itself, but allowed David to sound like he was actually speaking FOR God. Does oracle of God ring a bell?

When it's not God! It's using the Bible to sound like God. It makes them sound like they know God better than the rest of us.

And now bro Igzy pulls that card out from his sleeve. Igzy uses the Bible to make it sound like he knows God better than zeek and Harold. Don't make me laugh. Or better still, do.

The irony is obvious. I think zeek and I have made it clear that we don't know God, or at least I have ; that, God is so beyond us that none of us can know Him. So any idea that bro Igzy knows God better than bro's zeek and Harold is ludicrous. He can't know God any better than the rest of us. It's a level playing field.

What can be known is the Bible (well not really, but that's another story). But that's just knowing a book, not God 'Him'self. If indeed God is a Him, that is ... we can't know things like that about God. God is beyond him, her, it ... and is so beyond us that we can't know such a exulted being. None of us can. Not even bro Igzy.

Am I dodgin' and weavin'? "Float like a butterfly. Sting like a bee."
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Old 11-06-2015, 03:13 PM   #1583
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Believe ITIgzy uses the Bible to make it sound like he knows God better than zeek and Harold.
What would you rather him use, a copy of your hero's book "Misquoting Jesus"? Of course Igzy uses the Bible, he's a Christian. Funny thing about us Christians, we prefer to use the Bible, rather than, say the Quran, or the Theravada or Mahayana Buddhist canons, or the Hindu Vedas or Upanishads. Silly us!

Quote:
I think zeek and I have made it clear that we don't know God...
Glad you're the one who said this. If I said this you would probably call me something worse than creepy.

Quote:
God is so beyond us that none of us can know Him.
We've already been over this my man. YOUR god may be so beyond YOU that YOU can't know him/her. But what would you expect of a wimpy, powerless, impotent, can't-even-create-an-Amoeba, is-limited-by-everything, god? Of course you can't know him/her! Heck, even IF you could know that god you wouldn't want to know him/her.
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He can't know God any better than the rest of us. It's a level playing field.
Yes, it is a level playing field. We all have access to the Bible. You have Kindle, right? I have access to about 10 English versions on my iPad. Isn't that wonderful? Men and women have shed their blood so that we can have the Bible in our own language. There are, right now as I write this, men and woman in the farthest reaches of earth striving to see that people all over the world have the Bible in their language. Isn't that wonderful?

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What can be known is the Bible... But that's just knowing a book, not God 'Him'self.
Wow, you're on a roll! That's two profound revelations in a row! Who here has said that just knowing a book is knowing God Himself? Not Igzy. Not me. You have been reading our posts for years and years, and neither of us have said any such thing and you know it. So what else ya got for us brother Ali? You're running out of pejoratives Muhammad...Bible crazy. Creepy. What's next?

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Am I dodgin' and weavin'? "Float like a butterfly. Sting like a bee."
Maybe at one time you have floated like a butterfly....but I think you evolved into the Grinch that stole Christmas
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Old 11-07-2015, 09:35 AM   #1584
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One woman's testimony:

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What a few days it's been for people in the church I left! They came out with new policy that denys blessings and membership to children of same-sex parents, until those children are 18 and they have moved out of their parents' home and if they renounce their parents' lifestyle. People are resigning en masse over it--including two of my kids and possibly myself. Resigning from a fundamentalist type religion is no small feat. They wipe you off the records--like when your parents go to tithing settlement and things like that and they see their kids listed, the person who resigned is not there. They tell you you are lost for eternity and you can never go to the "best heaven" and you lose your family forever and stuff like that. I have to say that kind of emotional and spiritual blackmail is very triggering when you've heard it your whole life. I wish I was born a progressive christian instead of in such an all or nothing religion. I feel like it's not fair to go through all this triggering emotional hard stuff just to have the right to be a normal person living a normal life.
Does it sound familiar?
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Old 11-07-2015, 02:13 PM   #1585
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I'm not demanding anything. Merely stating the fact that you haven't backed up your knowledge claims.
In your case, saying I didn't "back up my knowledge claims" is the same thing as demanding proof.

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Why would I want to make a case that Jesus is not Son of God? Where did you ever get the idea I would want to do that? You're making me out to be something I'm not. I'm trying to follow Jesus, not deny him.
The context of the discussion was that we can't just believe anything, that there is a certain baseline, the antithesis of which can be called "heresy." Harold doesn't like when people use the word "heresy," which is irrational but, then that's Harold... I was simply using the term as shorthand for not believing what your level of revelation requires you do believe, which in our cases is that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. Just about everyone on this board is accountable for at least that much.

You responded with your post #1570., which didn't bother to ask me what I was talking about, but simply accused me of pronouncing judgement and threats. Why not simply acquiesce to my main point, that, yes, the Bible does have a baseline, which is we need to have the Son to have the Father? That was all I was getting at. But you guys freak out when anyone draws lines (which the Bible clearly does).

Why do you get so defensive? Is it to defend Harold's sensibilities? My only point was that the Bible teaches there is a baseline for required beliefs. You just can't believe anything and expect to be saved. This idea flips Harold out. Why I don't know. He may have some kind of irrational phobia. But he doesn't need you to be his protector. The guy needs Jesus. Stop coddling him.
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Old 11-07-2015, 02:52 PM   #1586
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Igzy uses the Bible to make it sound like he knows God better than zeek and Harold.
The issue isn't that I know anything better than you. The issue is that the Bible says that if you don't have the Son you don't have the Father. If you don't know Jesus, you don't know God. Note that I didn't say you have to have heard about Jesus to be saved. The point is if you have heard of him and reject him you cannot be saved nor know God. The Bible is plain on that.

Please stop trying to make this about me. I'm talking about what the Bible says. Address the Bible, not me.
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. John 3:26
I didn't write that. Someone about 2000 years ago did. The questions are, what does it mean and do you agree with it. Let's talk about that.
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Old 11-07-2015, 03:35 PM   #1587
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Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
Why do you get so defensive? Is it to defend Harold's sensibilities? My only point was that the Bible teaches there is a baseline for required beliefs. You just can't believe anything and expect to be saved. This idea flips Harold out. Why I don't know. He may have some kind of irrational phobia. But he doesn't need you to be his protector. The guy needs Jesus. Stop coddling him.
In order to have an intelligent conversation, I tried to get some definition from Harold on his positions. Since he wouldn't commit to anything, I then tried to summarize his positions based on what he had already posted. He then -- predictably -- shot each of those items down.

Without some basis for communication, there is none to have. Perhaps you are having better success than I. He and zeek just can't bear with the idea that someone could base their positions on the Bible.
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Old 11-07-2015, 08:25 PM   #1588
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In your case, saying I didn't "back up my knowledge claims" is the same thing as demanding proof.



The context of the discussion was that we can't just believe anything, that there is a certain baseline, the antithesis of which can be called "heresy." Harold doesn't like when people use the word "heresy," which is irrational but, then that's Harold... I was simply using the term as shorthand for not believing what your level of revelation requires you do believe, which in our cases is that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah. Just about everyone on this board is accountable for at least that much.

You responded with your post #1570., which didn't bother to ask me what I was talking about, but simply accused me of pronouncing judgement and threats. Why not simply acquiesce to my main point, that, yes, the Bible does have a baseline, which is we need to have the Son to have the Father? That was all I was getting at. But you guys freak out when anyone draws lines (which the Bible clearly does).

Why do you get so defensive? Is it to defend Harold's sensibilities? My only point was that the Bible teaches there is a baseline for required beliefs. You just can't believe anything and expect to be saved. This idea flips Harold out. Why I don't know. He may have some kind of irrational phobia. But he doesn't need you to be his protector. The guy needs Jesus. Stop coddling him.
So I'm off the hot seat and this is just your strategy for saving Awareness? Did the Lord put this burden on your heart do ya think? Cuz you're about as subtle as the Spanish Armada. And he seems to be holding his own against your arguments pretty well. Personally you have misread my position to the point where I despair of my ability to communicate. I'm one of two head honcho liberal skeptics dodging and weaving to evade the Hound of Heaven by your reckoning. After my dialogue with you I'm surprised that I can place an order at a restaurant and the waitress get it right.
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Old 11-08-2015, 06:58 AM   #1589
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The issue isn't that I know anything better than you. The issue is that the Bible says that if you don't have the Son you don't have the Father. If you don't know Jesus, you don't know God. Note that I didn't say you have to have heard about Jesus to be saved. The point is if you have heard of him and reject him you cannot be saved nor know God. The Bible is plain on that. . . . Please stop trying to make this about me. I'm talking about what the Bible says. Address the Bible, not me.
Thanks for the response Igzy.

So okay, we've established that you are not claiming to know God better than I do.

And I think you've made clear what you claim the Bible is "plain on." But I think you are wrong. The Bible doesn't make your premise, that you can't know God without Jesus, plain. In fact it's very confusing.

Let me explain why I think so. Because it's plain in the Bible that God comes to whomever He likes. And He, in the Bible, is not as scripted as you let on Him to be. He's God of course. He's not a robot running a Bible program.

The Bible starts out with God coming to men, early on. Not just Adam and Eve, but to Cain, and on down the line from there, too many to list actually. He even came to the pagan king priest, Melchizedek. God comes to pagans? way before Jesus? How's that possible, according to your premise?

And much later on God comes to John the Baptist. Did John not have the Father before and during Baptizing Jesus? How's that possible, according to your premise?

And then even later, after Jesus, the apostle Paul tells the Athenians who the God was that they were worshiping as The Unknown God. He didn't deny The Unknown God as invalid. How's that possible?

But maybe I don't understand what you mean by "have the son." If you mean that everyone that has come to God has somehow come by a eternal mystical Jesus then okay, I can accept that. Then again, maybe I shouldn't be so presumptuous. I'll allow you to explain just what you mean by that.

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Originally Posted by Igzy
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. John 3:26
So okay, just to be clear, you've also made it plain that all the billions upon billions that have come to God by any other means than Jesus are to suffer God's wrath ... and will not have eternal life. You don't say that, the Bible does, you say.

If this is true then the Bible makes God out to be a big ogre. Why would anybody want such a God? Why would the Bible make God so unattractive? Jesus is drawing all men to that God? What's this say about Jesus, and his death on the cross? Where's the loving God? Is He instead just lifting the giant cosmic shoe? Does God build to smash it down, and create life to make it suffer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Igzy
I didn't write that. Someone about 2000 years ago did. The questions are, what does it mean and do you agree with it. Let's talk about that.
I question it bro Igzy? That's all. I don't agree or disagree. I question. But it does seem to me that in the Bible God comes to whomever He likes, whenever He likes, and wherever He likes ... like it or not.
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Old 11-08-2015, 09:51 AM   #1590
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To the Fundamentalist the Bible is the solution to the mystery of life whereas to me it's a portal into the mystery.
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Old 11-09-2015, 10:22 AM   #1591
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In order to have an intelligent conversation, I tried to get some definition from Harold on his positions. Since he wouldn't commit to anything, I then tried to summarize his positions based on what he had already posted. He then -- predictably -- shot each of those items down.

Without some basis for communication, there is none to have. Perhaps you are having better success than I. He and zeek just can't bear with the idea that someone could base their positions on the Bible.
Everyone wants to know The Harold's positions. I personally understand those frustrations.

Every Christian I've befriended since the local church has wanted to know them. But after getting to know The Harold, and The Harold's past, all of them have told The Harold that The Harold was damaged by the local church.

So The Harold is damaged goods, they say.

I remember when it happened. It was after I left. I had taken the day off. The clock radio woke me up with, "Do You Know Where You're Goin' To" by Diana Ross:
Do you know where you're goin' to?
Do you like the things that life is showin' you
Where are you goin' to? Do you know?

Do you get what you're hopin' for
When you look behind you, there's no open doors
What are you hopin' for? Do you know?

It burned into my brain. It sat up in bed asking myself that question. And it came to me. I realized that I didn't know anything about what I had been blindly giving myself to ; the Bible and the whole shebang.

It was the beginning of me losing my positions. The local church damage was that I came out questioning everything.

I've been questioning ever since. And I can't tell you how much my questions bother my brothers in Christ. Questioning is not the Christian way. Christians don't question, they believe.

It's been a long haul, but in short, the result is that I lost all my positions, and don't know where to stand any more.

Does that help ... to understand The Harold?
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Old 11-09-2015, 12:05 PM   #1592
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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
To the Fundamentalist the Bible is the solution to the mystery of life whereas to me it's a portal into the mystery.
Fascinating statement zeek. When you get some time could you please elaborate?
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Old 11-09-2015, 01:16 PM   #1593
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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Everyone wants to know The Harold's positions. I personally understand those frustrations.

Every Christian I've befriended since the local church has wanted to know them. But after getting to know The Harold, and The Harold's past, all of them have told The Harold that The Harold was damaged by the local church.

So The Harold is damaged goods, they say.

I remember when it happened. It was after I left. I had taken the day off. The clock radio woke me up with, "Do You Know Where You're Goin' To" by Diana Ross:
Do you know where you're goin' to?
Do you like the things that life is showin' you
Where are you goin' to? Do you know?

Do you get what you're hopin' for
When you look behind you, there's no open doors
What are you hopin' for? Do you know?

It burned into my brain. It sat up in bed asking myself that question. And it came to me. I realized that I didn't know anything about what I had been blindly giving myself to ; the Bible and the whole shebang.

It was the beginning of me losing my positions. The local church damage was that I came out questioning everything.

I've been questioning ever since. And I can't tell you how much my questions bother my brothers in Christ. Questioning is not the Christian way. Christians don't question, they believe.

It's been a long haul, but in short, the result is that I lost all my positions, and don't know where to stand any more.

Does that help ... to understand The Harold?
Let me talk about a guy I know real well ... Rob.

Rob has been a Cowboys fan his whole life, though he never lived in Texas. He has never even been to Dallas for a game. He and all his friends are not football "fans" in the normal sense of the word, like rooting for the home team on Sunday afternoons. Actually they are all just haters. That's all they do. Their sport is trash-talkin. They feed on one another's hate. Each of his friends has their own team, none of which identify with the actual city they live in.

Rob is a genuine sports guru with a ready arsenal of hate about everyone else's team. He really knows everything about football. He calls penalties watching the game on TV before the refs even throw the flag. Seriously! He has an incredible memory for details. To Rob, no sports trivia is trivial. He really can answer every question I throw at him. Really amazing!

Rob goes to work every day just to irritate all the local fans. He loves it. Why wait for game day when you can trash-talk your colleagues every day! He once had the whole company upset with him trashing their favorite team. And he has all the facts to prove them wrong. Great fun! And especially when local fan fever really gets revved up! You have never seen a guy get so excited about work on Monday morning during football season. Like I said, he loves sports, and his favorite sport is hatin. And irritatin' the locals.

So that no one can reciprocate, Rob even hates on his own Cowboys. He can tell you all their screwups for the last 20 years, including Leon Lett's Thanksgiving Day blunder which cost them the game.

Rob is to sports what Harold is to religion.

Both are fanatics in their own right. Both know their subjects thoroughly. Both can "win" every argument. Neither of them will ever express excitement about their own team, however. As soon as either of them expresses some conviction about what they root for, then they become vulnerable. So they would never do that. Why should they when it is so much more fun hatin' on everyone else's. Why defend something when it's so much easier to attack others' positions. Why have any convictions, cause then they might have to believe and hope in something besides themselves.
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Old 11-09-2015, 02:50 PM   #1594
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The truth or mystery or whatever comes down to a Person. That person is God. The catch is, if you want to call it a catch, is that Jesus is God. So if you claim to know God you are claiming to know Jesus. And if you claim to know Jesus, you are claiming to know God, because they are one and the same. This is what Jesus meant when he said:
"Have I been with you so long but you still don't know me, Phillip? He who has seen me has seen the Father." John 14:9
People who claim to know God but reject Jesus as the Son of God really don't know God. Harold said God can come to anyone he wants to. This is true, but (1) just because God comes to someone doesn't necessarily mean that person has or knows God in the personal sense, and (2) if God comes to someone then that means Jesus is coming to them, so a personal relationship with God is a personal relationship with Jesus.

Jesus said "You do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me." He was saying that those who are truly his (and God's) recognize his voice. Those who are not truly God's don't recognize Jesus's voice as the voice of God.

A person can have God, but not be clear she also has Jesus. This is the true side of what Harold said. There is a story about missionaries who many years ago went to the third world somewhere (I think a Pacific island) to preach the Gospel. There they met a young woman whom they called "Mimosa." They preached the Gospel to her. She responded that she already knew the God they were talking about, but that she had never heard of Jesus. The more they taught her about Jesus the more she confirmed, that, yes, he was was the God she knew. The Person of Jesus in the Bible matched the God that lived in her heart. She did not reject Jesus, she accepted him, which confirmed that she had God.

However, if someone after learning about Jesus rejects him, then even if he claims to know God, he doesn't. People who do this really want to define God on their own terms, not as he really is. This, again, is how Jesus is a test. He showed us what God is like. And his message was clear. If you don't have Him you don't have God. Note, he didn't say if you never heard of him, but rather if you don't have him.

Jesus was God coming to us to show us what God was really like, and to die and rise for our salvation. You cannot separate God and Jesus. You can theoretically for discussion purposes, but practically you cannot. If you truly have God you have Jesus, and if you truly have Jesus you have God. So if you meet someone who claims to know God and you tell him about Jesus, that person should recognize Jesus as the God he claims to know. If he doesn't, he doesn't really know God.

So when Harold talks about God, he needs to realize he's talking about Jesus. They are one and the same. If he denies that then he really doesn't know either one of them; that is, his friend is not only invisible, he's imaginary.

The path to God always goes through Jesus, whether you realize it or not. If you've found God you've found Jesus, whether you realize it or not. If you reject Jesus you've rejected God, despite what you say to the contrary.

That's the plain message of the Bible.
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Old 11-09-2015, 03:15 PM   #1595
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I still think that this emphasis on "Person" is more "personal" than the scripture actually reveals. It seems to me that as much as we want to imbue God with characteristics compatible with us, it is not as simple as getting to know a person.

Getting to know a person who remains invisible, and is revealed by descriptions in words that are not always crystal-clear is not as "personal" as what we generally use the term to describe. I mean "no one has seen God." Yes, we know that many did see Jesus, who is God. But all we see are the accounts provided by those who saw him. And while God does continue to reveal himself to us in the Spirit, we do not see him with literal eyes. And when we hear some talk about what they see with "spiritual" eyes, we are sometimes very uncertain as to what they are seeing because we just don't see it.

Since He (God, Jesus) does not walk into your room wearing the garb of either turn-of-the-age or modern garb, there is always some uncertainty in what anyone claims as an account of having "met" Jesus. That does not make the claim bogus. But does it make your version (or mine, aron's, awareness', or zeek's) right or wrong, whether or not similar or different?

The answer is that we judge the claims of others based on our own experience. And there's that nefarious term. Experience. Something that could be as concrete as can be, or as uncertain as the notion, emotion, teacher, etc., that caused it to be.

I am not doubting your salvation or even belief system. But I am wondering whether you would approach everyone with this kind of dogged emphasis on things. Or is it just that you have to assume that awareness and zeek are — or at least should know enough to be — insiders and therefore already have the clarity of knowledge to be a certain as you are.

Did you ever consider that the reason that Lee, BP, and others often said that those who leave the LCM became spiritually shipwrecked was not just because they thought everything outside of the LCM was shipwrecked, but that for some, having to come to grips with the realization that such an extreme version of the Christian life and discipleship was wrong makes everything suspect. You can't just argue your way back in from there. It might take a renewed vision. And those are revealed, not argued. (And I am tending to dislike the whole apologetics version of the gospel for that very reason.)
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Old 11-09-2015, 03:43 PM   #1596
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OBW, I'm not sure I understand your objection to what I said. All I said was that if you know God you know Jesus. And if you reject Jesus you've rejected God. Whether we are talking about persons or trees, the meaning is the same. If you think there are two trees but actually there are one, then claiming to know one tree means you know the other.

What else could the Bible mean when it says "if you have the Son you have life, and if you don't have the Son you don't have life." assuming life is God? "Having the Son" means knowing the Son. It doesn't mean having the right teachings about him.

The reason I'm harping on this is because Harold seems to think he can have a relationship with God (have God/know God) without Jesus. The Bible is plain this is not possible. Yes, I suppose God can visit you and speak to you when you are in that position. But the Bible is clear you cannot know God in the sense of having eternal life without knowing Jesus. The way I look at it, the central logic of that is they are actually one and the same.

I'm not sure how this is foreign to the basic Bible message or how it is offensive. There is clearly a danger in thinking you are okay with God while ignoring Jesus. Harold especially seems in danger of this. zeek I'm not so sure about, but he spends more time being specific about what he thinks is wrong with others than he does being specific about his own theology.

The Bible instructs us to defend the truth, because people are in danger of judgment. I could humor alternative religions, and I suppose I've done that in some social settings, not wanting to offend. But this is not the setting to do that. If you can't defend the Gospel here you can't do it anywhere.

I'm not defending transubstantiation, or the Trinity, or the local ground, or any pretender to the faith. I'm defending the bedrock, bottom-line truth of the Bible. That Jesus is the Son of God and that if you reject that you cannot be saved.

If I don't need to defend that then I don't need to defend anything. And if I don't need to defend anything then all this is a meaningless academic exercise--amusing, but ultimately pointless. Might as well just say all roads lead to Heaven. I'd have more friends that way, too.
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Old 11-10-2015, 06:47 AM   #1597
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OBW, I'm not sure I understand your objection to what I said. All I said was that if you know God you know Jesus. And if you reject Jesus you've rejected God. Whether we are talking about persons or trees, the meaning is the same.
I was not picking on the thrust of what you were saying. I was just picking on the edges of the idea of "person" and "personal."

Surely my salvation is personal to me. But I think that there is a tendency in the aspect of the person and it being personal that turns it from love for man to love for me. From whosoever to me.

I note that the emphasis so often, even in the mainstream of evangelicalism, is on personal activities. From significant time spent in Bible studies to my personal quiet time. But it is too often not impacting the rest of the day. Or if it is, it is because they think in an altered version of LCM dogma that it is about turning away from the things that must be done for the day and "turning to God." They see less in God with them and around them and need a fix of God in their mind, typically through some kind of stoppage of the day and "refocus."

While it is true that we can do nothing without Christ, I am wondering whether the emphasis on personal is tied to our misunderstanding of what it is to be "with" and "in" Christ. Paul did say something about praying continually. But Jesus said that the righteous do, not that the righteous pray. The righteous do, not the righteous have better quiet times.

Yet if we find ourselves driving poorly, we don't set our wills to change right now and ask for forgiveness. Instead we request that the personal God come and change us. Too often with slower results. The first response is not "without God." Unless you think you have been abandoned or lost the access to all those things that we were given for life and godliness.

And before your get too far into your dissection of what I am saying, there is a reason that I did not address you personally at the beginning of the previous post. It was not intended to be an challenge to you or what you were saying. It was tied to the word "personal" and was intended as an observation (from what I think I have been seeing lately) that there is something hiding in the popular use of the term "personal" — whether that is what you mean by it or not.

Surely God is personal. He is relational. But his relationship is mostly described in terms of with a people, not just with persons. Our typical use of the word is to reduce it down to me and God. It is unwittingly support for saying that my version of what God said (in the Bible) is the "plain message of the Bible."

Yes, you used that one recently. And I am not looking at it right now. You may have been entirely correct in saying that concerning the things you were talking about. But it is too often used as a mantra over interpretation designed (intentionally or not) to assert that my interpretation is simply the right one and put everyone else on the defensive if they understand it differently. Just like Lee saying that the plain message of the Bible is that Christ because the Holy Spirit. Out of context it may seem that way.

But his reading was personal.
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Old 11-10-2015, 07:10 AM   #1598
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Fascinating statement zeek. When you get some time could you please elaborate?
Thank you Untohim. I've been elaborating on the mystery of God since I came to LCD. To acknowledge that God is a mystery is not to deny revelation. That which is essentially mysterious remains a mystery even when it is revealed. The God who reveals himself through the divine Logos according to John 1:1, is the same God who hides Himself according to Isaiah 45:15. This remains true despite the revelation of God in Christ. If this were not so, the gospel would not still have to be preached for it would be manifest to all. Faith manifests what is hidden to the "just" who is living by it. But, how does one enter this circle of faith? It requires a leap which is a kind of miracle. And a miracle is always a mystery. Any phenomenon that can be explained is not a miracle. So, even the simplest most basic element of Christianity [in the positive sense meaning the quality of that which is genuinely Christian] is a mystery.
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Old 11-10-2015, 08:27 AM   #1599
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Surely God is personal. He is relational. But his relationship is mostly described in terms of with a people, not just with persons. Our typical use of the word is to reduce it down to me and God. It is unwittingly support for saying that my version of what God said (in the Bible) is the "plain message of the Bible."
The part I have placed in bold really rings true with my current understanding of "the central" thrust of the whole Bible. Yes, redemption, salvation and even glorification of our bodies does, at first, have an individual dynamic to be sure. But the individual always leads to the corporate. Adam was created as in individual, yet soon it was "be fruitful and multiply". Abraham was called as an individual, yet soon it was "And I will make of you a great nation". The Law was given to Moses, yet soon it was given to all of the Children of Israel. The disciples were called as individuals (albeit, some in pairs of brothers), but soon they became "the 12 disciples". Finally, the individual members of the local churches become members of the universal "Body of Christ".

How and why this all got so convoluted by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee is a long, long story, and it's the main reason why we are all here today. Amazingly enough, Nee and Lee managed to convolute all the basics (redemption, salvation and glorification), both individual and corporate. They attacked the long held baseline for what was considered orthodox teachings and understandings, and somehow convinced a sizable lot of people that they could simply skip 1900+ years of Church history and bring us all back to genuine, authentic New Testament teaching and practice.

What were we thinking?
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Old 11-10-2015, 09:24 AM   #1600
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Let me talk about a guy I know real well ... Rob.

Rob has been a Cowboys fan his whole life, though he never lived in Texas. He has never even been to Dallas for a game. He and all his friends are not football "fans" in the normal sense of the word, like rooting for the home team on Sunday afternoons. Actually they are all just haters. That's all they do. Their sport is trash-talkin. They feed on one another's hate. Each of his friends has their own team, none of which identify with the actual city they live in.

Rob is a genuine sports guru with a ready arsenal of hate about everyone else's team. He really knows everything about football. He calls penalties watching the game on TV before the refs even throw the flag. Seriously! He has an incredible memory for details. To Rob, no sports trivia is trivial. He really can answer every question I throw at him. Really amazing!

Rob goes to work every day just to irritate all the local fans. He loves it. Why wait for game day when you can trash-talk your colleagues every day! He once had the whole company upset with him trashing their favorite team. And he has all the facts to prove them wrong. Great fun! And especially when local fan fever really gets revved up! You have never seen a guy get so excited about work on Monday morning during football season. Like I said, he loves sports, and his favorite sport is hatin. And irritatin' the locals.

So that no one can reciprocate, Rob even hates on his own Cowboys. He can tell you all their screwups for the last 20 years, including Leon Lett's Thanksgiving Day blunder which cost them the game.

Rob is to sports what Harold is to religion.

Both are fanatics in their own right. Both know their subjects thoroughly. Both can "win" every argument. Neither of them will ever express excitement about their own team, however. As soon as either of them expresses some conviction about what they root for, then they become vulnerable. So they would never do that. Why should they when it is so much more fun hatin' on everyone else's. Why defend something when it's so much easier to attack others' positions. Why have any convictions, cause then they might have to believe and hope in something besides themselves.
I hate Rob ....
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:31 PM   #1601
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
The part I have placed in bold really rings true with my current understanding of "the central" thrust of the whole Bible. Yes, redemption, salvation and even glorification of our bodies does, at first, have an individual dynamic to be sure. But the individual always leads to the corporate. Adam was created as in individual, yet soon it was "be fruitful and multiply". Abraham was called as an individual, yet soon it was "And I will make of you a great nation". The Law was given to Moses, yet soon it was given to all of the Children of Israel. The disciples were called as individuals (albeit, some in pairs of brothers), but soon they became "the 12 disciples". Finally, the individual members of the local churches become members of the universal "Body of Christ".

How and why this all got so convoluted by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee is a long, long story, and it's the main reason why we are all here today. Amazingly enough, Nee and Lee managed to convolute all the basics (redemption, salvation and glorification), both individual and corporate. They attacked the long held baseline for what was considered orthodox teachings and understandings, and somehow convinced a sizable lot of people that they could simply skip 1900+ years of Church history and bring us all back to genuine, authentic New Testament teaching and practice.

What were we thinking?
Good post Untohim. But I should point out that you've just contrived the same thing as Nee and Lee but on a much grander and broader scale; you now include all Christians in the universal body of Christ.

I tend to favor inclusivity ... over Nee's and Lee's convoluted narrowness and exclusivity.

But since Nee and Lee I'm not convinced we've worked it out any better. Maybe. Maybe not. Time will tell. Maybe more time than we've got. Unless we've got eternity.
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Old 11-11-2015, 08:30 AM   #1602
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But his reading was personal.
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But the individual always leads to the corporate. Adam was created as in individual, yet soon it was "be fruitful and multiply".
OBW, I think you are basically asking "is there a good selfishness"?

I think there is, but as you imply our current fallen condition is fraught with opportunities to indulge in "bad selfishness."

The Bible talks about "finding our souls." It also mentions that God will give us a new name that no one knows but us and him. Jesus died for the church. He also died for each of us. Jesus is the Good Shepherd of the flock. Yet he is willing to leave the flock to rescue one lost lamb. This seems to imply that not only group identify, but both healthy relationships with ourselves and one-on-one relationships between us and God are also intended for us.

The way I look at it is everything comes down to relationships: with each of us and God, with each other, and even with ourselves. The Trinity models an ideal instance of a group of individuals. Neither individual trumps the others. Each is fully realized, but the group is not compromised. Somehow the group and the individuals are all fully realized. This is something I believe God will bring us all into, where each of us fully find our souls, yet are fully part of the group. Fallen people never quite reach that. Either the individuals are overly selfish and the group suffers, or they are mashed into a group identity and lose something of themselves they shouldn't.

So I think there is nothing wrong with seeking a personal relationship with God for its own sake. Of course, it will affect our relationship with ourselves, which will feed into our relationship with others. But loving God means obeying his commandments, which in some cases means, as you said, just deciding to do better. But sometimes deciding to do better is just striving. It all depends.

Witness Lee (China) overemphasized the group. Harold (USA) overemphasizes the individual. Where's the balance? Heck if I know. But I do believe that each will be fully realized and fully integrated someday.
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Old 11-11-2015, 09:24 AM   #1603
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Concerning Ohio's friend Rob:

Of course I don't know Rob from Adam's cat. All I know about him is what bro Ohio tells, and he calls him a hater. But from what I can tell Rob is having a good time making fun of sports fanatics.

So if I take a wild stab at what made Rob the way that he is I'd say he's suffering some kind of PTCS (Post Traumatic Church Syndrome), and he's taking it out on sports fanatics because they look like the religious fanatics that he grew up in.

And if that's the case bro Ohio is right, Rob and I are alike; accept I'm not into sports. Unlike Rob, and to y'all's dismay, I'm still religious. And this is a big one: I'm not a hater ... of people that is.


Which brings me to Igzy. I love 'im. But that aside:

I'm very please that bro Igzy and I have come to some sort of understanding. I said:


"But maybe I don't understand what you mean by "have the son." If you mean that everyone that has come to God has somehow come by a eternal mystical Jesus then okay, I can accept that."


Igzy said:

"if God comes to someone then that means Jesus is coming to them ..."

And to this I say a big AMEN! What I think is irking bro Igzy is that he thinks that I think that a Buddhist meditating in a cave in the Himalaya mountains can come to God without Jesus. But I don't. As I see it it doesn't work that way. As I see it, in the Bible, it is always God that does the coming. And yes I give God the liberty to come to whomever he wants, whenever He wants, and wherever He wants. Moreover, and Igzy should be pleased, I have no problem accepting that wherever God comes, to whomever, it is Jesus that's coming. And that, if and when it ever happens, that a Buddhist comes to God, is the only way it can happens; when God comes, Jesus comes.

Next up: God is a Person.
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Old 11-11-2015, 03:34 PM   #1604
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Which brings me to Igzy. I love 'im. But that aside:

I'm very please that bro Igzy and I have come to some sort of understanding. I said:


"But maybe I don't understand what you mean by "have the son." If you mean that everyone that has come to God has somehow come by a eternal mystical Jesus then okay, I can accept that."


Igzy said:

"if God comes to someone then that means Jesus is coming to them ..."

And to this I say a big AMEN! What I think is irking bro Igzy is that he thinks that I think that a Buddhist meditating in a cave in the Himalaya mountains can come to God without Jesus. But I don't. As I see it it doesn't work that way. As I see it, in the Bible, it is always God that does the coming. And yes I give God the liberty to come to whomever he wants, whenever He wants, and wherever He wants. Moreover, and Igzy should be pleased, I have no problem accepting that wherever God comes, to whomever, it is Jesus that's coming. And that, if and when it ever happens, that a Buddhist comes to God, is the only way it can happens; when God comes, Jesus comes.
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Old 11-13-2015, 07:47 AM   #1605
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To the Fundamentalist the Bible is the solution to the mystery of life whereas to me it's a portal into the mystery.
For the sake of argument here, I will reluctantly take the label of "fundamentalist".

The Bible is no more (or no less) a "solution to the mystery of life" to me than oxygen is a solution to my breathing, or water is a solution to my hydration. Before I can preform any other basic function, even or especially, the "spiritual" functions, such as liking or disliking, loving or hating, I must first breath oxygen and drink water. As always (as a Christian fundamentalist.) I will refer to one of the most cogent statements of Jesus Christ "The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.(John 6:63) To Christians, "the words" that Jesus spoke of here of are the Words of God - the Holy Scriptures. Coming around full-circle to what I first said, you will recall that Jesus likened the Spirit to "the air" (aka oxygen) and The Scriptures, (aka "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God") to the most basic of foodstuffs, bread.

I may be misunderstanding (UntoHim misunderstand...no way!) what you mean by "a portal" and even "the mystery", but it seems to be you are skipping past addition and subtraction and trying to go straight to geometry and calculus. I do understand, and appreciate, the fact that we are both talking about "mathematics", but I don't understand how you think that you can skip (or ignore, as it were) the basics and go straight to the advanced. This is how I see what you are doing in your statement I have quoted at the top. We all must use externals to understand and comprehend the spiritual. I use the Bible, the Judeo-Christian Holy Scriptures. It seems to me you are using SOME PARTS of the Bible and some parts of other externals. Please explain.
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Old 11-13-2015, 09:40 AM   #1606
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It seems to me you are using SOME PARTS of the Bible and some parts of other externals
No one uses the whole Bible. We can't get at it all. That's why it too is a mystery.

We demystify it by taking parts of it, or by doing what Lee did with his Economy of God.

The mystery requires faith. The more we explain the less faith is required. Some believers have it so worked out they don't need any faith ... and miss out on loving God by embracing the mystery.

Taste and see. The mystery is good.
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Old 11-13-2015, 11:19 AM   #1607
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To the Fundamentalist the Bible is the solution to the mystery of life whereas to me it's a portal into the mystery.
I don't see the need to choose here. For me the Bible is both, a portal into the divine and heavenly mystery, while it also helps to provide definition along the way.

Along the same lines, the Bible is neither an end all to the mystery, nor should we continue our searching without ever finding definite assurances and shaping our convictions.
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Old 11-13-2015, 02:51 PM   #1608
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No one uses the whole Bible. We can't get at it all. That's why it too is a mystery.
Silly rabbit, of course no one uses the whole Bible....not all at one time! For history we use the history part, for wisdom we use the "wisdom books", for the Gospel we use the Gospels, etc. Not quite as mysterious as you think my friend.

Jesus Christ is "the exact representation of his being" (Heb 1:3 NIV).
The Greek word used here is χαρακτήρ charaktḗr, khar-ak-tare'; a graver (the tool or the person), i.e. (by implication) engraving ("character"), the figure stamped, i.e. an exact copy or representation):—express image. (from BlueLetterBible.Org)

Yes, in the Old Testament (and presumably pre O.T.) there were lots of shadows, types, allusions, etc that one could say created a lot of mystery about God, his nature, character, etc, but the apostle John, along with many others, were witness that "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" and "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands concerning the Word of life" For 2,000 years we have been left with the witness of these men, and their testimony has been recorded for us in the canon of the New Testament.

I'm very sorry that you, and so many others over these past 2000 years, have chosen to listen more to the naysayers, doubters and detractors than the witnesses of the earliest apostles and disciples. So it is no mystery to me that you feel that God is such a mystery to you. You should not worry so much or be so perplexed about such mysteries being revealed. The God of the Universe is still, and always will be, inexhaustible! The apostle Paul, a man of great wisdom and the greatest pioneer and explorer of the mysterious of God, threw up his hands and proclaimed "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!" (Rom 11:33)
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Old 11-14-2015, 07:17 AM   #1609
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Silly rabbit, of course no one uses the whole Bible....not all at one time! For history we use the history part, for wisdom we use the "wisdom books", for the Gospel we use the Gospels, etc. Not quite as mysterious as you think my friend.

Jesus Christ is "the exact representation of his being" (Heb 1:3 NIV).
The Greek word used here is χαρακτήρ charaktḗr, khar-ak-tare'; a graver (the tool or the person), i.e. (by implication) engraving ("character"), the figure stamped, i.e. an exact copy or representation):—express image. (from BlueLetterBible.Org)

Yes, in the Old Testament (and presumably pre O.T.) there were lots of shadows, types, allusions, etc that one could say created a lot of mystery about God, his nature, character, etc, but the apostle John, along with many others, were witness that "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" and "which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands concerning the Word of life" For 2,000 years we have been left with the witness of these men, and their testimony has been recorded for us in the canon of the New Testament.

I'm very sorry that you, and so many others over these past 2000 years, have chosen to listen more to the naysayers, doubters and detractors than the witnesses of the earliest apostles and disciples. So it is no mystery to me that you feel that God is such a mystery to you. You should not worry so much or be so perplexed about such mysteries being revealed. The God of the Universe is still, and always will be, inexhaustible! The apostle Paul, a man of great wisdom and the greatest pioneer and explorer of the mysterious of God, threw up his hands and proclaimed "Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!" (Rom 11:33)
Jesus Christ is a graven image?

Great post Untohim.

Yes the opening chapter of Hebrews attempts to explain grand mysteries with bold and grand annunciations and proclamations.

And I say WOW! I'm slain with those mysteries, like I'm slain by theoretical physics explanation of the Big Bang events as it unfolded.

And that's because both are packed full of mysteries. Just read the first chapter of Hebrews. Okay Jesus is the exact imprint of God. If that's not a mystery then what is?

It's like saying that the whole universe Planck seconds after the Big Band was all packed into something smaller than an atom. That's all of God packed into Jesus.

And if that doesn't strike you as a grand mystery then you are absent of imagination.
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:07 AM   #1610
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It's like saying that the whole universe Planck seconds after the Big Band was all packed into something smaller than an atom. That's all of God packed into Jesus.

And if that doesn't strike you as a grand mystery then you are absent of imagination.
Ahh shucks!

If I reject the Big Bang Theory, then I am absent of imagination!

Is there no hope for a guy like me?
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Old 11-14-2015, 11:42 AM   #1611
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Ahh shucks!

If I reject the Big Bang Theory, then I am absent of imagination!

Is there no hope for a guy like me?
No! No! Not the big bang, and how the universe once was smaller than an atom. No, no. I was talking about, tho maybe not well, that imagination is required to picture Jesus actually being God. And I know your imagination has no problem with that ... right?
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Old 11-14-2015, 12:50 PM   #1612
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No! No! Not the big bang, and how the universe once was smaller than an atom. No, no. I was talking about, tho maybe not well, that imagination is required to picture Jesus actually being God. And I know your imagination has no problem with that ... right?
Jesus being actually God?

I knew that was true long before I actually believed in Him.
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Old 11-14-2015, 01:13 PM   #1613
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Jesus being actually God?

I knew that was true long before I actually believed in Him.
How did you know that before believing in Him? Typically people that don't believe in Him don't care enough to know such things, unless told that as growing up. In which case it's only knowing by indoctrination. And that way is not trustworthy in the least ... IMHO.
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Old 11-14-2015, 03:43 PM   #1614
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How did you know that before believing in Him? Typically people that don't believe in Him don't care enough to know such things, unless told that as growing up. In which case it's only knowing by indoctrination. And that way is not trustworthy in the least ... IMHO.
That may be your "humble opinion," but I disagree. I always knew that God was real, that He was my creator, and that He would judge me when I died. I knew that from my youth. I was never "indoctrinated" with these facts. I also knew that Jesus was God, and He died for my sins. I learned these growing up, and I believed them, but I never knew God personally until I was in college. The whole world knows about Jesus, and no indoctrination is needed for that.
Since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. -- Romans 1.19-20

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands. Day after day they pour out speech; night after night they communicate knowledge. There is no speech; there are no words; their voice is not heard. Their message has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens He has pitched a tent for the sun. -- Psalms 19.1-4
These verses, and many more, make it clear that creation speaks the existence of God into our hearts. Faith, real faith, came much later to me, and then I "knew God" as promised in the New Covenant, instituted the night He was betrayed.

Unfortunately, the more people "study" about God, the more they "unlearn" what they knew as a child. Children automatically know that God created them, and will one day judge them. It takes vast amounts of indoctrination to make children unlearn God. As proof of this, checkout any liberal institution of "higher" learning.
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Old 11-14-2015, 08:46 PM   #1615
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I disagree. I always knew that God was real, that He was my creator, and that He would judge me when I died.
Well I think you are some kind of a lucky dog of sorts. Seems to me like you were specially blessed. Not everyone always knew that God was real. In fact, I don't know for a fact -- but I know -- that that is not all that common.

So I say AMEN bro Ohio! God selected you young, and vouchsafed this knowing to you. That's way kool. That must be why you're so different ... or stand out ... er som'pen.
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Old 11-15-2015, 09:27 AM   #1616
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Well I think you are some kind of a lucky dog of sorts. Seems to me like you were specially blessed. Not everyone always knew that God was real. In fact, I don't know for a fact -- but I know -- that that is not all that common.

So I say AMEN bro Ohio! God selected you young, and vouchsafed this knowing to you. That's way kool. That must be why you're so different ... or stand out ... er som'pen.
Not any more specially blessed than you.

Think about how much more simple faith you had as a child.

It is my observation that it takes far more "indoctrination" to produce an atheist than it does a believer. Most need a college degree to accomplish that.

I always bemoaned the fact that I could not read literature or novels, and thus ended up in engineering which focuses on problem solving rather than reading. Today I am thankful!
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Old 11-15-2015, 10:16 AM   #1617
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More evidence that ISIS is Islamic fundamentalist sect with literalist apocalyptic interpretation of Koran http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/
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Old 11-16-2015, 01:23 PM   #1618
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"The Christianity of the New Testament does not exist at all. Here there is nothing to reform; it is a matter of throwing light on a Christian crime continued over the centuries and practiced by millions (more or less guilty), a crime whereby little by little, in the name of the perfecting of Christianity, a sagacious attempt has been made to trick God out of Christianity and Christianity has been turned into exactly the opposite of what it is in the New Testament."
Soren Kierkegaard wrote that over 160 years ago. Is the situation any better today?
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Old 11-16-2015, 02:09 PM   #1619
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The Christianity of the New Testament does not exist at all. Here there is nothing to reform; it is a matter of throwing light on a Christian crime continued over the centuries and practiced by millions (more or less guilty), a crime whereby little by little, in the name of the perfecting of Christianity, a sagacious attempt has been made to trick God out of Christianity and Christianity has been turned into exactly the opposite of what it is in the New Testament.
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Soren Kierkegaard wrote that over 160 years ago. Is the situation any better today?
Hard to say. The first thing that needs to be answered is whether the original quote is anything more than the opinion of someone who just didn't like Christianity.

What makes Kierkegaard's version of New Testament Christianity any more accurate than that of anyone else claiming that their version (or no version) rightly qualifies. For example, why is his version any more correct than Witness Lee's?

In other words, just because Kierkegaard said it does not make it true. Without something approaching evidence, it is little more than an opinion (and an old statement by someone that wrote enough that lasted long enough to be quoted).
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Old 11-16-2015, 07:58 PM   #1620
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Hard to say. The first thing that needs to be answered is whether the original quote is anything more than the opinion of someone who just didn't like Christianity.

What makes Kierkegaard's version of New Testament Christianity any more accurate than that of anyone else claiming that their version (or no version) rightly qualifies. For example, why is his version any more correct than Witness Lee's?

In other words, just because Kierkegaard said it does not make it true. Without something approaching evidence, it is little more than an opinion (and an old statement by someone that wrote enough that lasted long enough to be quoted).
Well is there any version of Christianity today that's up to par with New Testament Christianity? Lee claimed that it could be recovered.

But Lee didn't have anything like the Pentecost. Without that we can't be like New Testament Christianity.

New Testament Christianity was driven by a powerful out pouring and movement of God's Spirit. So concerning NT Christianity do we have that today? If not, Christianity is pathetic by comparison ... and nothing but a pantomime.
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Old 11-16-2015, 08:28 PM   #1621
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Well is there any version of Christianity today that's up to par with New Testament Christianity? Lee claimed that it could be recovered.
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What is NT Christianity? I find no two churches alike. The early church in Jerusalem was nothing like the later church in Jerusalem.

The question belies an obsession with some ideal -- the perfect church -- only found in the beginning.

I have read in church history of many churches which were as "good or better" than what I have read about in the Bible.
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Old 11-17-2015, 06:42 AM   #1622
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Ohio has it right. The NT church is the church of extremes. The first apostles and those that never heard of Yahweh before. Those of the promised seed and Gentiles. Some mostly one or the other. Some very mixed. Each facing both physical and spiritual/mental impediments to their participation. Each having a different background to rise above. And that continues to this day. If we were simply the cookie-cutter churches that Lee wanted, it would be nothing like the NT.

But the church as it is found today is very much like the church of the NT in the sense that it is constantly battling both outside forces and inside forces. And the inside forces are among the worst. We pray to God concerning the outside forces, but turn on each other as the result of those inside. One of the more famous occurrences is in 1 Corinthians. Another would be the split of Protestantism from the RCC. It is true that our internal history is poor. But without justifying it, it has been so from the beginning. It is in overcoming this that we change the view of the Kierkegaard's of the world.

And it is worth noting that no matter how much the bulk of Christianity is not like what Kierkegaard scorned, those who don't want to see that will focus on what is still not up to snuff (in their opinion).
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Old 11-17-2015, 08:27 AM   #1623
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Some guy named Kierkegaard said the following in zeek's post ...
Quote:
"The Christianity of the New Testament does not exist at all. Here there is nothing to reform; it is a matter of throwing light on a Christian crime continued over the centuries and practiced by millions (more or less guilty), a crime whereby little by little, in the name of the perfecting of Christianity, a sagacious attempt has been made to trick God out of Christianity and Christianity has been turned into exactly the opposite of what it is in the New Testament."
It reminded me of a few surprising comments which the Lord spoke to His disciples after getting an earful from the Pharisees ...
Quote:

Mark 7.20-23 -- "And Jesus said, that which proceeds out of the man, that defiles the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, evil thoughts proceed ... an evil eye, railing, pride, foolishness; all these evil things proceed from within, and defile the man.
Concerning "an evil eye," the question to us is simple: What do you see?

When you see Jesus, when you see the church, when you see the Bible, when you look at the children of God throughout the millennia, what do you see? I think this is an incredibly important question in the context of this sub-forum. An "evil eye" only sees what it wants to see, and has absolutely nothing good to say about God, His word, His people, or their impact on this world. An "evil eye" only sees the faults, flaws, failings, and foolishness of the church.

Guys like Kierkegaard populate all of history, and now their writings abound on the internet. I can't say they don't have their supporting evidence, but unfortunately the Lord has told us that what proceeds out of their hearts defiles them. How sad, since they may never find that out until judgment day. It's a warning to us all. How do we see things?

One message I have always had since I began writing on this forum, is the danger we face going too far in our critiques. Witness Lee and his colleagues have hurt people, including us, so we must point that out to others, shout it from the rooftops if you will, in order to protect them. But some have gone so far as to throw out, not only Lee and the LCM, but also all Christians, all scripture, and even Jesus, our Creator and Savior. That is doubly sad.
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Old 11-17-2015, 02:10 PM   #1624
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Some guy named Kierkegaard said the following in zeek's post ...

It reminded me of a few surprising comments which the Lord spoke to His disciples after getting an earful from the Pharisees ...


Concerning "an evil eye," the question to us is simple: What do you see?

When you see Jesus, when you see the church, when you see the Bible, when you look at the children of God throughout the millennia, what do you see? I think this is an incredibly important question in the context of this sub-forum. An "evil eye" only sees what it wants to see, and has absolutely nothing good to say about God, His word, His people, or their impact on this world. An "evil eye" only sees the faults, flaws, failings, and foolishness of the church.

Guys like Kierkegaard populate all of history, and now their writings abound on the internet. I can't say they don't have their supporting evidence, but unfortunately the Lord has told us that what proceeds out of their hearts defiles them. How sad, since they may never find that out until judgment day. It's a warning to us all. How do we see things?

One message I have always had since I began writing on this forum, is the danger we face going too far in our critiques. Witness Lee and his colleagues have hurt people, including us, so we must point that out to others, shout it from the rooftops if you will, in order to protect them. But some have gone so far as to throw out, not only Lee and the LCM, but also all Christians, all scripture, and even Jesus, our Creator and Savior. That is doubly sad.
According to the accounts I've read Kierkegaard was a devout Christian who is still inspiring Christians today. A person who projects evil on others based on ignorance might be said to have an evil eye. But, there's no one like that around here.
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Old 11-17-2015, 02:29 PM   #1625
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Hard to say. The first thing that needs to be answered is whether the original quote is anything more than the opinion of someone who just didn't like Christianity.

What makes Kierkegaard's version of New Testament Christianity any more accurate than that of anyone else claiming that their version (or no version) rightly qualifies. For example, why is his version any more correct than Witness Lee's?

In other words, just because Kierkegaard said it does not make it true. Without something approaching evidence, it is little more than an opinion (and an old statement by someone that wrote enough that lasted long enough to be quoted).
Kierkegaard cited as an example of what "is present everywhere in the Christianity of the New Testament :When Christianity requires for saving one's life eternally...hating one's own life in this world..." He asked"is there a single one of us whose life even in the remotest can be called even the weakest striving in this direction? " He concluded that, "If God by grace nonetheless is to assume us to be Christians, one thing still must be required, that we, by being scrupulously aware of the requirement, have a true conception of how infinitely great is the grace that is shown us."
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Old 11-17-2015, 02:58 PM   #1626
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According to the accounts I've read Kierkegaard was a devout Christian who is still inspiring Christians today. A person who projects evil on others based on ignorance might be said to have an evil eye. But, there's no one like that around here.
"Kierkegaard is widely considered to be the first existentialist philosopher."

This thread, however, though titled "fundamentalism," is actually "anti-fundamentalism."

Obviously existentialism is your baby, and Kierkegaard is your godfather, so why don't you start a new thread for it. Then I'll be able to stay out of your way.
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Old 11-17-2015, 05:26 PM   #1627
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Kierkegaard cited as an example of what "is present everywhere in the Christianity of the New Testament :When Christianity requires for saving one's life eternally...hating one's own life in this world..." He asked"is there a single one of us whose life even in the remotest can be called even the weakest striving in this direction? " He concluded that, "If God by grace nonetheless is to assume us to be Christians, one thing still must be required, that we, by being scrupulously aware of the requirement, have a true conception of how infinitely great is the grace that is shown us."
This statement does not seem to be consistent with the one you quoted earlier. It makes me wonder whether there is some context missing with respect to the first quote. Whether the quote is part of a larger passage in which either the nature of the church in the first century is deemed irrelevant, or the point of focus is other than what it appears when provided without context.

Otherwise, it would be an unlikely statement from a "devout Christian." Something does not connect.

Oh, I'm sure that he did not simply dismiss the nature of the NT church. But if he thought it was of utmost importance and it did not seem to exist, then I would expect . . . well, something less than a devout Christian.
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Old 11-17-2015, 08:49 PM   #1628
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"The Christianity of the New Testament does not exist at all. Here there is nothing to reform; it is a matter of throwing light on a Christian crime continued over the centuries and practiced by millions (more or less guilty), a crime whereby little by little, in the name of the perfecting of Christianity, a sagacious attempt has been made to trick God out of Christianity and Christianity has been turned into exactly the opposite of what it is in the New Testament."
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Soren Kierkegaard wrote that over 160 years ago. Is the situation any better today?
Actually, I think the situation is much better today. I think Kierkegaard was dealing with the "State church" of his day, which he no doubt considered the fundamentalist of his time. Unless any of us are familiar with mid-19th century Danish Christianity, I don't think we are in a position to challenge Kierkegaards observations. Nevertheless, I think his "turned into exactly the opposite of what it is in the New Testament" may have been a bit too harsh.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:55 AM   #1629
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"Kierkegaard is widely considered to be the first existentialist philosopher."

This thread, however, though titled "fundamentalism," is actually "anti-fundamentalism."

Obviously existentialism is your baby, and Kierkegaard is your godfather, so why don't you start a new thread for it. Then I'll be able to stay out of your way.
My own purpose for this thread from the beginning has been to discuss Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism claims to hold to New Testament Christianity. Kierkegaard stated that during his time New Testament Christianity did not exist. Surely even you who thanks God for your literary ignorance can appreciate the relevance of his statement here.

You stated
Quote:
"I have read in church history of many churches which were as "good or better" than what I have read about in the Bible."
Is the church of which you are now a member one of those that are as good or better than the best NT churches in your opinion? By what criteria?
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:05 AM   #1630
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This statement does not seem to be consistent with the one you quoted earlier. It makes me wonder whether there is some context missing with respect to the first quote. Whether the quote is part of a larger passage in which either the nature of the church in the first century is deemed irrelevant, or the point of focus is other than what it appears when provided without context.

Otherwise, it would be an unlikely statement from a "devout Christian." Something does not connect.

Oh, I'm sure that he did not simply dismiss the nature of the NT church. But if he thought it was of utmost importance and it did not seem to exist, then I would expect . . . well, something less than a devout Christian.
Kierkegaard wrote voluminously. His works are all easily available to anyone who wants to read them. The two quotes I cited are both in the Faedrelandet Articles which i have in The Essential Kierkegaard from Princeton University Press. I think from the two quotes I cited it is obvious that he was criticizing the "Christians" of his day [including himself] for their lack of seriousness regarding the teachings of Jesus.
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Old 11-18-2015, 07:13 AM   #1631
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Actually, I think the situation is much better today. I think Kierkegaard was dealing with the "State church" of his day, which he no doubt considered the fundamentalist of his time. Unless any of us are familiar with mid-19th century Danish Christianity, I don't think we are in a position to challenge Kierkegaards observations. Nevertheless, I think his "turned into exactly the opposite of what it is in the New Testament" may have been a bit too harsh.
I think you're right that Kierkegaard was dealing with the state church. But, please show me how the situation is better today. Where are the Christians who have enough faith to abandon their guns, "resist not evil", love their enemies and follow Jesus to the cross?
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Old 11-18-2015, 12:49 PM   #1632
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Because I think it's being misapplied I'd like to address the "evil-eye."

Looking at the Greek and using Strong's I get:

Quote:
πονηρός
ponēros
pon-ay-ros'
From a derivative of G4192; hurtful, that is, evil (properly in effect or influence, and thus differing from G2556, which refers rather to essential character, as well as from G4550, which indicates degeneracy from original virtue); figuratively calamitous; also (passively) ill, that is, diseased; but especially (morally) culpable, that is, derelict, vicious, facinorous; neuter (singular) mischief, malice, or (plural) guilt; masculine (singular) the devil, or (plural) sinners: - bad, evil, grievous, harm, lewd, malicious, wicked (-ness).
So it appears that an evil eye is not seeing the negative, but as an eye looking to do harm or evil.
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Old 11-18-2015, 01:14 PM   #1633
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I think you're right that Kierkegaard was dealing with the state church. But, please show me how the situation is better today. Where are the Christians who have enough faith to abandon their guns, "resist not evil", love their enemies and follow Jesus to the cross?
Are you serious? You really want to meet Christians who have no guns?

No? I didn't think so.

Just more negative stereotypes about Christians.
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:23 PM   #1634
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Are you serious? You really want to meet Christians who have no guns?

No? I didn't think so.
Once again you speak where you don't know what you are talking about. I've come to expect that from you Ohio.

Quote:
Just more negative stereotypes about Christians.
It only takes one black swan to disprove the proposition that all swans are white. Show me your black swan, Ohio. Perhaps you are alluding to yourself as representative of that Christianity Kierkegaard and I were seeking and out of Christian humility you are obliged not to say so. If that's the case, I can understand your dilemma, though I confess it's not my own. But, one hopes that there are many true followers of Jesus toiling away in obscurity, unsung saints who, out of the media spotlight are letting the divine light of God shine through them. Oh I forgot, I have an evil eye, what was I doing hoping for a thing like that.
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:24 PM   #1635
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I think you're right that Kierkegaard was dealing with the state church. But, please show me how the situation is better today. Where are the Christians who have enough faith to abandon their guns, "resist not evil", love their enemies and follow Jesus to the cross?
Again, I don't think either one of us are in a position to be comparing and contrasting today's Christianity with that of mid-19th century Danish State Church. And your "faith to abandon their guns" blast doesn't add anymore to our conversation than Obama's "clinging to religion or guns" insult did to foster understanding back in the day. Surely you understand the issues surrounding the "current situation" of the world's largest religion are more involved than the right to hold firearms, right?

Let me just quickly point out one objective proof that the situation among protestant American Christianity is better, and it involves the integrity of the leadership. Just in the past couple of years, three megachurch leaders/founders have been removed from their positions for immoral and/or unbiblical activity. Bob Coy at Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale, Mark Dricoll of Mars Hill Seattle (also removed from board of Acts 29) and Tullian Tchividjian of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale. Although all these downfalls caused a huge black eye for evangelicals, and even worse for the Name and cause of Christ, if these men were left in their respective positions, the situation would have eventually grown much worse and more damage would have ensued. I would contend that, even just 15 or 20 years ago, these situations would have been covered up, but because the Church has grown deeper into the message and meaning of the Gospel, they were exposed and removed from office.

This is just one aspect of how the situation is better today. I have much more to say in this regard but it will have to wait.
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:28 PM   #1636
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Once again you speak where you don't know what you are talking about. I've come to expect that from you Ohio.

It only takes one black swan to disprove the proposition that all swans are white. Show me your black swan.
Can you please think before you post. This makes no sense.
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Old 11-18-2015, 03:39 PM   #1637
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Can you please think before you post. This makes no sense.
Let me rephrase for you. If what I offered was a stereotype like you claimed, it should be easy for you to produce counterfactual evidence. You know, like UntoHim just tried to do and failed.
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Old 11-18-2015, 04:17 PM   #1638
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Kierkegaard wrote voluminously. His works are all easily available to anyone who wants to read them. The two quotes I cited are both in the Faedrelandet Articles which i have in The Essential Kierkegaard from Princeton University Press. I think from the two quotes I cited it is obvious that he was criticizing the "Christians" of his day [including himself] for their lack of seriousness regarding the teachings of Jesus.
And that would be easy in almost any generation.

The problem with making reference to the NT Christian or Christianity is that from the very beginning there is evidence of the very things that there was ample reason to criticize the Christians of that day (at least a lot of them). Paul surely did.

And another problem with NT Christianity is that it tends to be a vague reference to whatever the reader wants to read into it rather than a definitive yardstick of measure.

So the it would seem that the problem is not really with what he was trying to get at in his statements, but rather the lack of clarity in the thing that he tried to point to. Or maybe he was indirectly saying the same thing I am and criticizing those who claimed a link to NT Christianity (whatever that is).
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Old 11-18-2015, 05:51 PM   #1639
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zeek, did someone by chance slip some hot sauce in your herbal tea this afternoon? Alternative views doesn't mean alternative to being civil. You've started a good line of conversation with this Kierkegaard quote. Let's keep your personal politics out and try to stir clear of ad hominems.
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Old 11-18-2015, 05:58 PM   #1640
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And that would be easy in almost any generation.

The problem with making reference to the NT Christian or Christianity is that from the very beginning there is evidence of the very things that there was ample reason to criticize the Christians of that day (at least a lot of them). Paul surely did.

And another problem with NT Christianity is that it tends to be a vague reference to whatever the reader wants to read into it rather than a definitive yardstick of measure.

So the it would seem that the problem is not really with what he was trying to get at in his statements, but rather the lack of clarity in the thing that he tried to point to. Or maybe he was indirectly saying the same thing I am and criticizing those who claimed a link to NT Christianity (whatever that is).
Aren't the life and teachings of Jesus the New Testament standard? Is there a lack of clarity in Jesus as the Christ? Is the standard is so high that no one but Jesus lives it? If so, where is the problem? Surely not with God! Anyway, if we aren't living up to the standard and we know of none who are, we should at least be honest and admit it. That's all I'm looking for--a little honesty.
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Old 11-18-2015, 06:26 PM   #1641
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zeek, did someone by chance slip some hot sauce in your herbal tea this afternoon? Alternative views doesn't mean alternative to being civil. You've started a good line of conversation with this Kierkegaard quote. Let's keep your personal politics out and try to stir clear of ad hominems.
If you re-read a previous reply to Ohio, you will see that I have scrubbed for ad homs. But, I don't see you censoring your politics. And that's understandable. Our politics seem to follow from our religion, so trying to discuss religion without revealing something of our politics is like trying to box with one arm tied.
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Old 11-19-2015, 08:29 AM   #1642
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Are you serious? You really want to meet Christians who have no guns?

No? I didn't think so.

Just more negative stereotypes about Christians.
“Fellow Christians who are serious about their faith” should “think about getting a handgun permit.” - Lt. Gov. Tennessee Ron Ramsey on Facebook

He included a link to a state government Web site instructing residents on how they can acquire such a permit.

After reading this a few weeks ago I was considering going to churches around here with a gun on my hip. Wouldn't they freak out? Wouldn't they think I'm coming to gun them down?

Would true Christian's pack guns? "let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one,"
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Fundamentalists, believing these are the very inerrant words of God, spoken by Jesus, could very well interpret this as meaning true Christians would own guns, and belong to the NRA.

I think Kierkegaard missed this in his judgement of what Christianity should be. He was perchance thinking only of the loving Jesus, not the one bringing a sword.
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:03 AM   #1643
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[COLOR="DarkRed"] "let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one,"
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Fundamentalists, believing these are the very inerrant words of God, spoken by Jesus, could very well interpret this as meaning true Christians would own guns, and belong to the NRA.

I think Kierkegaard missed this in his judgement of what Christianity should be. He was perchance thinking only of the loving Jesus, not the one bringing a sword.
The preponderance of Christ's teaching is unambiguously anti-violence. Consider the following:

Quote:
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. (Matt. 5:38-39)

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)
When one of Christ's disciples mistakenly took his statement: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." [Matthew 10:34] literally Jesus told him: "Put your sword back in its place...for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)
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Old 11-19-2015, 09:39 AM   #1644
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awareness, how can you support zeek and be critical of my views, when it is you who have the guns, and not me.

Liberal verbiage gone awry! Take a look at France. No one has guns but the terrorists!
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:04 AM   #1645
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awareness, how can you support zeek and be critical of my views, when it is you who have the guns, and not me.

Liberal verbiage gone awry! Take a look at France. No one has guns but the terrorists!
Am I supporting zeek? I didn't intend to. Zeek is like Kierkegaard. He seeks the perfect Christian, according the the clear teachings of Jesus, so called.

While I'm quoting Jesus saying that he's bringing the sword. That will prolly cause bro zeek to rent his garment in anger & anxiety. Zeek wants the peaceful and loving, lay down your life for the world, kind of Jesus. According to zeek (I'm putting words into his mouth) if we want to be true Christians, we should follow Jesus' teaching and "resist not evil." That would mean we shouldn't resist ISIS. We should love our enemy ... and give 'em a hug, just before they cut our heads off. That's what Jesus did.

Truth is, I don't know just who I'm supporting. I see Kierkegaard as a fundamentalist of his day. And you know how I feel about fundamentalism (of any kind).

Truth is, again, I don't know what I'm talking about. So if I offended you bro Ohio, or slighted you in any way, I truly apologize.

Gosh! I love both you guys, and you both know it. And I'd like to see you two love each other. We're no longer in the local church and so we don't all have to be the same. Maybe Kierkegaard's Christianity is that. That we love one another even when we differ. You know, like we do family members???

And yes I have guns. Three of them. Two 12 guages, and one 9m. I use to have more, but gave them to my son. I inherited all my guns, except the 9m. And I bought that cuz my wife's boyfriend, that's right up the road, was gunning for me. He likes to go out back in our woods shooting his guns. I answer back by shooting mine in my back yard. I'll fire off 15 rounds in the ground as fast as a automatic. I do that precisely to keep from ever being in a situation where I'm forced to decide to kill someone, in this case my wife's boyfriend (that I admit to having fantasies, that I couldn't shake out of my head, of going up the road a blowing both of their heads off). So far it's been working (knock on wood). But I had an experience where it felt like Jesus came to me and said "forgive them." Then I shook those evil fantasies. Thank you Lord ... I guess. Even Confucius had sense enough to point out: “Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”

I grew up with guns. They've never been a big deal to me. Growing up I hunted many of the local critters. Now I can't even shoot a deer in my back yard, from my kitchen window, while in my underwear.

And according to the Kentucky legislature "Kentuckians don't back down." So we have a stand your ground law. We can shoot down anyone that threatens us with no questions asked.

Can I do that? Prolly not. Those darn Jesus teachings -- again -- would keep me from pulling the trigger.

Please forgive me bro Ohio. I'm a mess. I'm definitely in need of a hefty dose of divine intervention. Pray for me.
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Old 11-19-2015, 11:59 AM   #1646
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Am I supporting zeek? I didn't intend to. Zeek is like Kierkegaard. He seeks the perfect Christian, according the the clear teachings of Jesus, so called.
Then zeek prolly has plucked out an eye or two, and cut off a hand or two. Methinks only Jesus is a perfect Christian.

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Zeek wants the peaceful and loving, lay down your life for the world, kind of Jesus. According to zeek (I'm putting words into his mouth) if we want to be true Christians, we should follow Jesus' teaching and "resist not evil." That would mean we shouldn't resist ISIS. We should love our enemy ... and give 'em a hug, just before they cut our heads off. That's what Jesus did.
There have been many cases in church history where this has happened. Legalism demands others to do this, real love says I will be the first one to do this.

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Truth is, again, I don't know what I'm talking about. So if I offended you bro Ohio, or slighted you in any way, I truly apologize.
No, I'm not offended in the least. I am a supporter of the 2nd Amend, though I seem to use my 1st Amend rights more.

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And I bought that cuz my wife's boyfriend, that's right up the road, was gunning for me.
Confucius says, "better to get a divorce than to shoot her."

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But I had an experience where it felt like Jesus came to me and said "forgive them." Then I shook those evil fantasies. Thank you Lord ... I guess.
Thank the Lord. Jesus truly is your Shepherd. Forgiving them will help the Lord heal you.

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I grew up with guns. They've never been a big deal to me. Growing up I hunted many of the local critters. Now I can't even shoot a deer in my back yard, from my kitchen window, while in my underwear.
Try putting your camos on.

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And according to the Kentucky legislature "Kentuckians don't back down." So we have a stand your ground law. We can shoot down anyone that threatens us with no questions asked. Can I do that? Prolly not.
For me it prolly would come down to whether I was protecting myself or others.
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:01 PM   #1647
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awareness, how can you support zeek and be critical of my views, when it is you who have the guns, and not me.

Liberal verbiage gone awry! Take a look at France. No one has guns but the terrorists!
Your looking in the wrong place. You should be looking to follow the words of the one you claim is your Lord and Savior.
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:07 PM   #1648
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Your looking in the wrong place. You should be looking to follow the words of the one you claim is your Lord and Savior.
What is this a game?

Riddle me this Batzeek: What belongs to you, but is used by others?
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Old 11-19-2015, 06:13 PM   #1649
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Am I supporting zeek? I didn't intend to. Zeek is like Kierkegaard. He seeks the perfect Christian, according the the clear teachings of Jesus, so called.
Show me where I claimed that. You would rather make stuff up than answer my stated arguments.

Quote:
While I'm quoting Jesus saying that he's bringing the sword. That will prolly cause bro zeek to rent his garment in anger & anxiety. Zeek wants the peaceful and loving, lay down your life for the world, kind of Jesus.
Instead of guessing what I would "prolly" do why not try and address what I actually stated. That would be a refreshing change on this forum.

Quote:
According to zeek (I'm putting words into his mouth) if we want to be true Christians, we should follow Jesus' teaching and "resist not evil." That would mean we shouldn't resist ISIS. We should love our enemy ... and give 'em a hug, just before they cut our heads off. That's what Jesus did.
Yes, it's called martyrdom. That's what actual followers of Jesus do when necessary to be faithful to his teachings. Like his disciples turned apostles did, for instance.


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Truth is, I don't know just who I'm supporting. I see Kierkegaard as a fundamentalist of his day. And you know how I feel about fundamentalism (of any kind).
A superficial reading of Kierkegaard to be sure.

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Truth is, again, I don't know what I'm talking about. So if I offended you bro Ohio, or slighted you in any way, I truly apologize. Gosh! I love both you guys, and you both know it. And I'd like to see you two love each other. We're no longer in the local church and so we don't all have to be the same. Maybe Kierkegaard's Christianity is that. That we love one another even when we differ. You know, like we do family members???
Yes that's what Jesus calls us to do.
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Old 11-20-2015, 09:54 AM   #1650
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Show me where I claimed that. You would rather make stuff up than answer my stated arguments.

Instead of guessing what I would "prolly" do why not try and address what I actually stated. That would be a refreshing change on this forum.
To be honest zeek, it's not always easy to understand what you are saying.

But perhaps, since I am just a college dropout, other readers have an easier time reading you.
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Old 11-20-2015, 11:22 AM   #1651
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To be honest zeek, it's not always easy to understand what you are saying.

But perhaps, since I am just a college dropout, other readers have an easier time reading you.
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Originally Posted by zeek
Show me where I claimed that. You would rather make stuff up than answer my stated arguments.
I can't show bro zeek, cuz I gathered that by talking to him on cells. I know it might strike both of you as incomprehenssable but I sure would like to hook you up in that way. 'cept y'all prolly scare each other too much for that. It would likely clear things up between you.
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Old 11-20-2015, 03:09 PM   #1652
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To be honest zeek, it's not always easy to understand what you are saying.

But perhaps, since I am just a college dropout, other readers have an easier time reading you.
Who said everything is supposed to be easy like Easy Free TV? There are plenty of people making things easier. Witness Lee claimed he was making easier to live in the spirit. All you had to do was call O Lord Jesus and pray-read and you would be transformed! Perhaps we need someone to make things harder.
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Old 11-20-2015, 03:28 PM   #1653
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Both ISIS and Christian Fundamentalists have an "apocalyptic mindset".

http://www.alternet.org/paul-krugman...tendency-panic
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Old 11-20-2015, 03:52 PM   #1654
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Both ISIS and Christian Fundamentalists have an "apocalyptic mindset".
That's like saying both tornadoes and sunshine are "weather events."
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Old 11-20-2015, 03:54 PM   #1655
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Who said everything is supposed to be easy like Easy Free TV? There are plenty of people making things easier. Witness Lee claimed he was making easier to live in the spirit. All you had to do was call O Lord Jesus and pray-read and you would be transformed! Perhaps we need someone to make things harder.
This is your justification for incoherence?

I think I prefer Lee's version of "short, quick, living, and to the point."
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Old 11-20-2015, 04:56 PM   #1656
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Aren't the life and teachings of Jesus the New Testament standard? Is there a lack of clarity in Jesus as the Christ? Is the standard is so high that no one but Jesus lives it? If so, where is the problem? Surely not with God! Anyway, if we aren't living up to the standard and we know of none who are, we should at least be honest and admit it. That's all I'm looking for--a little honesty.
I would agree that the teachings of Jesus Christ are clear. But somehow it seems that people want to read the rest of the NT as if it defines the NT teachings and is the lens through which you read Jesus.

Instead, we should read Jesus, and when we run up against something that we can't seem to get our arms around, we read the commentaries provided in the epistles. But we have to read them through the lens of Jesus, not the other way around.

But since so much of the Christianity of the past 200 years or so (and likely much longer) has been reinterpreting Jesus through other lenses, including the epistles, we end out with the mess that is mostly an exercise in missing the point. We are more worried about having correct doctrine than living righteous lives. And that colors everything.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:52 PM   #1657
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This is your justification for incoherence?

I think I prefer Lee's version of "short, quick, living, and to the point."
Of course you prefer Lee. His indoctrination still has a strong hold on your mind. Your posts are typically short, quick, bigoted and snarky. But, your lack of comprehension is intermittent and self-serving. You understand me just fine when you want to.
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Old 11-20-2015, 05:56 PM   #1658
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That's like saying both tornadoes and sunshine are "weather events."
Obviously you kept to your stated policy of not reading the lined article. Like IntotheWind said yours is a willful ignorance.
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Old 11-20-2015, 07:16 PM   #1659
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Of course you prefer Lee. His indoctrination still has a strong hold on your mind. Your posts are typically short, quick, bigoted and snarky. But, your lack of comprehension is intermittent and self-serving. You understand me just fine when you want to.
I hope you feel better now.

Where's a good moderator when you need one?
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Old 11-20-2015, 07:32 PM   #1660
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Obviously you kept to your stated policy of not reading the lined article. Like IntotheWind said yours is a willful ignorance.
Are you now commending me for my consistency? Thank you very much.

Fundamentalists, like you and Windy, always need to denigrate those who differ. I think there's more of Lee left in you than you realize. Remember, I'm from Ohio, and we got expelled for not being into Lee.

When it comes to "willful ignorance" about nonsense like evolution, I take that as a complement. Thanks again.
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:35 PM   #1661
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I would agree that the teachings of Jesus Christ are clear. But somehow it seems that people want to read the rest of the NT as if it defines the NT teachings and is the lens through which you read Jesus.
We can't worry what others think. What is Christ saying to me as an individual?
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Old 11-21-2015, 05:40 PM   #1662
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The Pope nails it: “We should ask for the grace to weep for this world, which does not recognise the path to peace. To weep for those who live for war and have the cynicism to deny it,” the Argentine pontiff said, adding: “God weeps, Jesus weeps”.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/pope...-war-and-hate/
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Old 11-21-2015, 08:54 PM   #1663
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The Pope nails it: “We should ask for the grace to weep for this world, which does not recognise the path to peace. To weep for those who live for war and have the cynicism to deny it,” the Argentine pontiff said, adding: “God weeps, Jesus weeps”.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/pope...-war-and-hate/
Thanks Francis. I do weep for this world. I try to close my eyes to it, cuz it's an overload, but it's unavoidable.
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Old 11-22-2015, 07:29 AM   #1664
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...every-last-one

"The moral imagination of the scriptures was determined by a battered refugee people. If politicians don’t like that, they shouldn’t claim the Christian mantle."
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Old 11-22-2015, 09:36 AM   #1665
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...every-last-one

"The moral imagination of the scriptures was determined by a battered refugee people. If politicians don’t like that, they shouldn’t claim the Christian mantle."
When zeek stands up first to take them into his home, then I will agree.

The article also says ...

Quote:
Christian politicians won’t say it, but the Bible is clear: let the refugees in, every last one
What verse is that? Obviously a twisting of scriptures.

Once again ole zeek is faithful to dump that liberal white guilt on the forum.
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Old 11-22-2015, 10:53 AM   #1666
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I hope you feel better now.

Where's a good moderator when you need one?
Yeah, where is he? ... The MINO - Moderator In Name Only?
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Old 11-22-2015, 11:35 PM   #1667
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When zeek stands up first to take them into his home, then I will agree.

The article also says ...



What verse is that? Obviously a twisting of scriptures.

Once again ole zeek is faithful to dump that liberal white guilt on the forum.
Leviticus 19:34Revised Standard Version (RSV)
The stranger who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Prejudice: Knowing that whatever the basis in the Bible was, it must be a "twisting of scriptures" before you even knew what the basis was. Where does the Bible command us to be frightened xenophobic haters?
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Old 11-23-2015, 07:34 AM   #1668
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Where does the Bible command us to be frightened xenophobic haters?
Don't get me started.

Great verse tho. And Hebrews says they might be angels unawares, or something like that.
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Old 11-23-2015, 08:09 AM   #1669
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Do not say that it is naïve to think we can love everyone, even our enemies.
It is not naïve; it is Christian.

Do not say that it is politically naïve to be forgiving of those who hurt you.
It is not naïve; it is Christian.

Do not say that it is naïve to ensure everyone’s basic needs are met, even for the least of these.
It is not naïve; it is Christian.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thegoda...re-christians/
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Old 11-23-2015, 08:33 AM   #1670
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Leviticus 19:34Revised Standard Version (RSV)
The stranger who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Prejudice: Knowing that whatever the basis in the Bible was, it must be a "twisting of scriptures" before you even knew what the basis was. Where does the Bible command us to be frightened xenophobic haters?
Are we not also instructed to be "wise as serpents, gentle as doves?" Show me a Christian who is a "frightened xenophobic hater," and I'll show you a wise man protecting his family from danger.

You got strangers and terrorists mixed up. And btw how many "strangers" you now got in your home, and I'm not talking about cats either?

Are you now saying that America is a "Christian" country bound by the law of Moses? I thought you guys already "proved" it was not. Once again trying to have things both ways.

Why is it that the refugees who found it the hardest to find asylum in the US were the Syrian and Iraqi Christians? Why is it you never say a nice thing about Christians, and you never say an honest thing about Mooslums?
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Old 11-23-2015, 08:47 AM   #1671
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Don't get me started.

Great verse tho. And Hebrews says they might be angels unawares, or something like that.
That's right. Abraham hosted three travelers who turned out to be "angels unawares." He could also tell by talking to them that they did not have a sodomic or gamorric accent.

Abraham would have thrown them out!

Maybe circumcise them first.
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Old 11-23-2015, 05:43 PM   #1672
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We can't worry what others think. What is Christ saying to me as an individual?
I would agree. But it is not a relevant response to the discussion to which my response was added.

The response I gave was linked to a discussion of Kierkegaard's statements that included a reference to NT Christianity. So what anyone thinks that (NT Christianity) means is actually relevant to that discussion.

Unless your goal is to undermine the purpose of putting the Kierkegaard statement out there in the first place.
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Old 11-23-2015, 09:42 PM   #1673
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I would agree. But it is not a relevant response to the discussion to which my response was added.

The response I gave was linked to a discussion of Kierkegaard's statements that included a reference to NT Christianity. So what anyone thinks that (NT Christianity) means is actually relevant to that discussion.

Unless your goal is to undermine the purpose of putting the Kierkegaard statement out there in the first place.
I don't follow you. How could what Christ is saying to me be at variance with New Testament Christianity? Jesus as the Christ is the essence of Christianity. If the church or a Christian deviates from Christ that is not Christianity. It's something else.
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