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Old 12-16-2016, 06:26 PM   #1001
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But it's a very big gap. The Bible doesn't tell us what went on in that gap, but the scientists have the answer : The gap is 13.5 billion yrs long. Therefore if anything is in a gap, that would be the human race ... a very small gap indeed, by comparison. Humans are nothing compared to that little gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, but big gap in time. And a lot was created during that gap.
Awareness, glad to see you have finally come around and accepted the 13.5 billion yrs long Gap in Genesis 1. You never did like that 6 Millennia version of history that Evangelical and Ken Ham are peddling.

The scientists don't know what happened either, they just extrapolated some enormous time frame based on some timing scheme. Or are you privy to some ancient Dinosaurean Calendar?

Do you really think humans would read all that happened during the 13.5 billion yrs long GAP, if God had provided it, if they don't want to accept what He did provide for the last 6 Millennia or so?

Whatever was created during that 13.5 billion yrs long GAP has become little more than fossil fuels to keep us warm today and keep our cars running. Do you find that so much more interesting than our own history?
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Old 12-16-2016, 08:00 PM   #1002
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The Gap answers all my questions about the history of creation.
The scientist are still trying to figure out what happened in the gap of 13.5 billions years. Maybe when they do they'll find it all started from the word of a supreme being. Who knows? According to Nee the Bible is beyond question. All your questions my be answered but not so the scientist's.

They may, when they scratch to the bottom of creation, find a voice, a word, started it all, and they may not. And Nee is likely wrong that the Bible is beyond question. It hasn't been so far.

Moody Blues - Question (The metaphysician-musician's of the hippie days):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP9iOqdxS8c
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Old 12-16-2016, 08:19 PM   #1003
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The gap theory is not just to reconcile evolution with a 7 day creation but also to explain why Satan was on the Earth in the first place, where do dinosaurs come from, and where do demons come from.

You may not be aware of this but it is believed that a pre-Adamic human-like race with the dinosaurs roamed the earth between verse 1 and 2. During the gap it is believed there was a cataclysmic battle between the forces of God and Satan and the pre-Adamic humans, resulting in the destruction of the Earth by verse 2. God decided then to reform the Earth, create humans and populate the earth with humans. God's instructions to man to rule and multiply was to take back the Earth for God which had previously been under the control of Satan and the pre-Adamics.

During this gap period, was the time when Satan and a third of angels fell from heaven. The souls of the pre-adamic human race became what we know today as demons (this explains why demons like to inhabit human bodies). God's judgement on the pre-adamic humans for their rebellion was to roam the Earth as demons.

Thus, all the dinosaur fossils and ape-man bones found in the Earth are actually from this pre-Adamic period. Proponents of the gap theory will normally believe in a difference between demons and fallen angels. Demons are the souls of the ape-men seeking to inhabit humans to regain back their physical form.
Well just blow me away Evangelical. Wow! Just where do you come by this material? Some of it smacks of Enoch, but not all of it. Sounds extra-Biblical to me. Could you source it, please?
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:08 PM   #1004
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Well just blow me away Evangelical. Wow! Just where do you come by this material? Some of it smacks of Enoch, but not all of it. Sounds extra-Biblical to me. Could you source it, please?
That's from Pember's book. Have you never read it?
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:14 PM   #1005
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Awareness, glad to see you have finally come around and accepted the 13.5 billion yrs long Gap in Genesis 1. You never did like that 6 Millennia version of history that Evangelical and Ken Ham are peddling.
No doubt I can be slow to catch on sometimes. Took me 10 yrs to catch on to the local church (hopeless).

But there's all kinds of theories, ideas, and beliefs, 'out there' concerning the creation of man. For example, I had one Primitive Baptist preacher tell me, in his distinctive southern hillbilly drawl : "I believe in evolution. The black man evolved from apes. The white man was created by God." So I guess that explains the question of why Bible creation goes back only 6000 yrs, and science says 13.5 billion. The black man goes back to the apes in the gap age, while the white man was created 6000 yrs ago. There. The gap in Genesis answers all the discrepancies between the Bible and science.

Amen hallelujah. Cognitive dissonance becomes cognitive consonance. Shalom. Peace is found in the valley.
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:41 PM   #1006
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That's from Pember's book. Have you never read it?
Pember gets so out there that it sounds like science fiction. I like the gap theory, but couldn't buy into all the rest of his, demons, spirits, evil angels, disembodied spirits, blaming it on Spiritualism, Theosophy, Buddhism, Hinduism, and all other religions but Christianity.

I may as well believe there's a monster under my bed. I guess all the fire and brimstone sermons I heard growing up in the Southern Baptist church anaesthetised me, or maybe I should say inoculated me to all that spirit and spooks talk.

Still, I have the book in Kindle and would like some sources, like page numbers, or something. Evangelical seems well sourced in it, and apparently you too. Come help this old fart that read Pember way back in my LC days. I guess I could search the book myself.

Well I did a quick search in the book for 'dinosaurs' and 'pre-Adamic,' and found nothing. Help this dummy please.
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:48 PM   #1007
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The scientist are still trying to figure out what happened in the gap of 13.5 billions years. Maybe when they do they'll find it all started from the word of a supreme being. Who knows? According to Nee the Bible is beyond question. All your questions my be answered but not so the scientist's.

They may, when they scratch to the bottom of creation, find a voice, a word, started it all, and they may not. And Nee is likely wrong that the Bible is beyond question. It hasn't been so far.

Moody Blues - Question (The metaphysician-musician's of the hippie days):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP9iOqdxS8c
Considering all the wild cyber-imaginations on the Alt-Views forum, I would think that Legend of the Mind would be more appropriate for you. (Sounds best with headphones on, Extra loud)
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Old 12-16-2016, 11:24 PM   #1008
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Well just blow me away Evangelical. Wow! Just where do you come by this material? Some of it smacks of Enoch, but not all of it. Sounds extra-Biblical to me. Could you source it, please?
Of course it is extra-Biblical, that's why I roll my eyes when someone says "I follow the Bible alone" or "the Bible is my only authority". Christianity is full of extra-Biblical stuff. Even the Trinity doctrine is extra-biblical. The canon of Scripture is extra-biblical (in the sense that the bible does not say what books should be in the holy Scriptures), and all of the creeds and sofs - Nicene, apostles creed, Westminster statement of faith etc. Christmas and Easter is extra-biblical as well. No one ever celebrated Jesus's birthday in the bible (this was a pagan tradition, not Jewish), it doesn't even tell us the proper day Jesus was born. In a sense even Christianity is extra-biblical when compared to the scriptures of Jesus's day - the old testament. Largely the reason why Jews don't accept Christianity as a legitimate religion.

There is Pember as Ohio mentioned but also "Mystery of Creation" by Watchman Nee which is largely just paraphrasing Pember. Nee writes:

These demons or spirits probably were a preadamic race who inhabited the former world. They either assisted Satan in rebellion or else they followed him afterwards. And thus they were destroyed by God by their being disembodied.

In modern times the gap theory can be found in writings of people such as Billy Graham, John Hagee, Jimmy Swaggart and Benny Hinn who believe in it. This book by Benny Hinn is basically presenting the gap theory:
http://www.bennyhinn.org/shop/prophecy/angels-and-demons/

It was in the audio version of this book that Benny Hinn discussed dinosaurs. So we could say that all of these preachers are extra-biblical because they believe in the gap theory.
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Old 12-17-2016, 12:05 PM   #1009
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Considering all the wild cyber-imaginations on the Alt-Views forum, I would think that Legend of the Mind would be more appropriate for you. (Sounds best with headphones on, Extra loud)
I was in love with the Moodies years before the local church, and after all I've gone thru, I still am.

Back in those days, when I came from Michigan to visit family and friends in Kentucky, none knew anything about hippies, or their music. I came down and brought the music. I became friends with one of my cousin's paramours (they eventually married) and turned him onto the Moodies. He instantly fell in love with them.

Since then he went thru similar life changes as I religion wise. 'Cept he went thru becoming a fanatical Independent (Consevative) Baptist Church Christian, believing every word in the Bible was the very words of God, and I went thru the local church, believing the same thing but with the true interpretation of those words - haha.

Down thru the years we've had many disagreements -- to say the least - I was in the true church, he wasn't ... haha -- 'cept for one thing, he always thought of me as the one that turned him onto the Moody Blues. All those years and all those changes, he never stopped enjoying the Moodies. He and I still consider listening to the Moodies a enriching spiritual experience ; turn it up, lay back, close your eyes, and go on a inner spiritual journey with the Moodies.

Anyway bro Ohio, you mentioned "all your questions are answered by the gap," or some such, and the Moodies came to mind.

Thanks.
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Old 12-17-2016, 12:18 PM   #1010
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I was in love with the Moodies years before the local church, and after all I've gone thru, I still am.

Back in those days, when I came from Michigan to visit family and friends in Kentucky, none knew anything about hippies, or their music. I came down and brought the music. I became friends with one of my cousin's paramours (they eventually married) and turned him onto the Moodies. He instantly fell in love with them.

Since then he went thru similar life changes as I religion wise. 'Cept he went thru becoming a fanatical Independent (Consevative) Baptist Church Christian, believing every word in the Bible was the very words of God, and I went thru the local church, believing the same thing but with the true interpretation of those words - haha.

Down thru the years we've had many disagreements -- to say the least - I was in the true church, he wasn't ... haha -- 'cept for one thing, he always thought of me as the one that turned him onto the Moody Blues. All those years and all those changes, he never stopped enjoying the Moodies. He and I still consider listening to the Moodies a enriching spiritual experience ; turn it up, lay back, close your eyes, and go on a inner spiritual journey with the Moodies.

Anyway bro Ohio, you mentioned "all your questions are answered by the gap," or some such, and the Moodies came to mind.

Thanks.
For good reason. I'm not big on love songs, but "Forever Autumn" is just incredible.

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I see you have started to quote Donald J. Repeat after me, "we will build the wall."
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Old 12-17-2016, 01:41 PM   #1011
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Of course it is extra-Biblical, that's why I roll my eyes when someone says "I follow the Bible alone" or "the Bible is my only authority". Christianity is full of extra-Biblical stuff. Even the Trinity doctrine is extra-biblical. The canon of Scripture is extra-biblical (in the sense that the bible does not say what books should be in the holy Scriptures), and all of the creeds and sofs - Nicene, apostles creed, Westminster statement of faith etc. Christmas and Easter is extra-biblical as well. No one ever celebrated Jesus's birthday in the bible (this was a pagan tradition, not Jewish), it doesn't even tell us the proper day Jesus was born. In a sense even Christianity is extra-biblical when compared to the scriptures of Jesus's day - the old testament. Largely the reason why Jews don't accept Christianity as a legitimate religion.
Well blow me down again bro. Point well taken. When we start adding up all the extra-Biblical stuff in Christianity the pile never stops growing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanG
So we could say that all of these preachers are extra-biblical because they believe in the gap theory.
What hits my funny bone is that the gap theory seeks to align the Bible with science, and seems those that embrace it jump into spirits and demons, which does not align with science.

And by the way, all y'all evolution deniers, let's just say, evolution was true during those gap days, during the pre-Adamic days, surely. There ; Another cognitive consonance found, between the Bible and science. Hallelujah!
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Old 12-17-2016, 02:17 PM   #1012
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What hits my funny bone is that the gap theory seeks to align the Bible with science, and seems those that embrace it jump into spirits and demons, which does not align with science.

And by the way, all y'all evolution deniers, let's just say, evolution was true during those gap days, during the pre-Adamic days, surely.
The question for you is simple: Did God create, or did man evolve?

What say ye?
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Old 12-17-2016, 03:23 PM   #1013
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The question for you is simple: Did God create, or did man evolve?

What say ye?
Thanks for askin' bro Ohio. I say :

I can't scientifically prove it, and it's not told in the Bible as to how the first creation -- that pesky gap period -- came about, only wild imagination required to fill that gap.

So I say : BOTH bro Ohio BOTH.

Does that suit yer fancy? What say ye?

But I get it. Evolution is disappointing. I think a third arm would be useful, and eyes in the back of my head. What's the deal evolution? What say YEEEEEEE? If you're such a big deal surely you can talk. Or did you make us to do your talking fer ya? And look what you ended up with. Evolution, you are a failure.

Evolution causes evil. But somehow escapes the POE. Why? How? It escapes the POE but God doesn't. Why? How? I call, NOT FAIR.
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Old 12-17-2016, 06:21 PM   #1014
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Evolution is disappointing. I think a third arm would be useful, and eyes in the back of my head.
Someone told me that chick from the Charlie's Angels remake had eyes in the back of her head.

Turns out she just has a Cameron Diaz.
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Old 12-17-2016, 08:17 PM   #1015
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The question for you is simple: Did God create, or did man evolve? What say ye?
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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
So I say : BOTH bro Ohio BOTH. Does that suit yer fancy? What say ye?
I have an old PhD friend from the LC, a professor who also wrote a book on the subject, who felt that God created through evolution. Since he taught evolutionary concepts in the university, the following quote is relevant, "it is very hard for a man to know the truth when his job is paying him to not know it."

Another brother I knew, also a PhD, and from MIT, felt that he could not accept such a compromise, saying evolution is evolution, whether we ascribe the "chance" changes to God or not. Lots of smart folks here, way brighter than I, will never come to an agreement, so I have no delusions about convincing you or others.

John's Gospel opens up saying that "In the beginning was the Word, who was God, and was with God; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being."

I for one am going with that. I'd rather trust Jesus than thousands of arguing scientists. I figure if I'm wrong, it hasn't cost me a thing. The infinite odds required for chance evolution to occur are not worth the risk. The problem I have with embracing evolution is simple. Most of those who do feel it excludes the possibility of the existence of God. Basically it goes like this: if we evolved, then we were not created. If we were not created, then God does not exist. If God does not exist, then there is no after life. If there is no after life, then we are not accountable to anyone. This concerns me.

What say ye?
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Old 12-17-2016, 11:36 PM   #1016
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I have an old PhD friend from the LC, a professor who also wrote a book on the subject, who felt that God created through evolution. Since he taught evolutionary concepts in the university, the following quote is relevant, "it is very hard for a man to know the truth when his job is paying him to not know it."
"You tell me whar a man gits his corn-pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is." - Mark Twain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
John's Gospel opens up saying that "In the beginning was the Word, who was God, and was with God; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being which has come into being."
Suppose evolution came into being thru him?

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Originally Posted by Ohio
I for one am going with that. I'd rather trust Jesus than thousands of arguing scientists.
Is that red letter in your Bible? It's not in mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio
The problem I have with embracing evolution is simple. Most of those who do feel it excludes the possibility of the existence of God. Basically it goes like this: if we evolved, then we were not created. If we were not created, then God does not exist.
So what about what started evolution? If it's true, and it is, as true as the earth being round, and not the center of the universe, then it didn't start from nothing. It didn't begin out of nowhere.

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If God does not exist, then there is no after life. If there is no after life, then we are not accountable to anyone.
Oh c'mon, we are too accountable, if we get caught, or don't own up. Are you saying that God is sitting to judge, just for those that didn't get caught sinning.

If God is so concerned, to be up into everyone's business, why isn't He up into the business of the POE? He cares about everyone's little sins, but completely overlooks, or turns a blind eye, to the POE?

That's not very god like.

What think ye?
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Old 12-18-2016, 02:28 AM   #1017
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Well blow me down again bro. Point well taken. When we start adding up all the extra-Biblical stuff in Christianity the pile never stops growing.


What hits my funny bone is that the gap theory seeks to align the Bible with science, and seems those that embrace it jump into spirits and demons, which does not align with science.

And by the way, all y'all evolution deniers, let's just say, evolution was true during those gap days, during the pre-Adamic days, surely. There ; Another cognitive consonance found, between the Bible and science. Hallelujah!
It does align with science - demonology is a science. Theology is also a science.
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Old 12-18-2016, 01:31 PM   #1018
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It does align with science - demonology is a science. Theology is also a science.
Yes, the same motivation that was behind the gap creation theory is still at work today. And science is even a bigger problem than it was for Chalmers, Pember, Nee, and Lee ... and even for possibly you. I don't know.

It all starts out with one premise, that, the Bible is the very word of God and is true. Like Nee stated, science can be questioned, but the Bible is beyond question.

So now that science seems to be a truer revelation than those from ancient Biblical days, let's just claim that not only is the Bible a book of science, but also claim that demonology and theology are sciences as well. Then, cognitive consonance for Bible worshipers is found again.

All this proves is that, in the battle between the Bible and science, science is winning ... even in the minds of the Bible worshipers.
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Old 12-18-2016, 03:35 PM   #1019
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Yes, the same motivation that was behind the gap creation theory is still at work today. And science is even a bigger problem than it was for Chalmers, Pember, Nee, and Lee ... and even for possibly you. I don't know.

It all starts out with one premise, that, the Bible is the very word of God and is true. Like Nee stated, science can be questioned, but the Bible is beyond question.

So now that science seems to be a truer revelation than those from ancient Biblical days, let's just claim that not only is the Bible a book of science, but also claim that demonology and theology are sciences as well. Then, cognitive consonance for Bible worshipers is found again.

All this proves is that, in the battle between the Bible and science, science is winning ... even in the minds of the Bible worshipers.
Did some scientist die for your sins? Have you decided to cast your lot with scientists?

"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and bring to nothing the understanding of the experts. Where is the philosopher? Where is the scholar? God has turned the wisdom of the world into nonsense, hasn't He? For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe."
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Old 12-18-2016, 04:31 PM   #1020
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Yes, the same motivation that was behind the gap creation theory is still at work today. And science is even a bigger problem than it was for Chalmers, Pember, Nee, and Lee ... and even for possibly you. I don't know.

It all starts out with one premise, that, the Bible is the very word of God and is true. Like Nee stated, science can be questioned, but the Bible is beyond question.

So now that science seems to be a truer revelation than those from ancient Biblical days, let's just claim that not only is the Bible a book of science, but also claim that demonology and theology are sciences as well. Then, cognitive consonance for Bible worshipers is found again.

All this proves is that, in the battle between the Bible and science, science is winning ... even in the minds of the Bible worshipers.
If science is winning, why have they not yet solved the problem of death? By the way, you can trust me, I'm like a scientist only better, because I deal with things that are pure and are always true. The idea of things happening by chance is crazy. It's basically believing that everything came into being via a casino.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:00 AM   #1021
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Did some scientist die for your sins? Have you decided to cast your lot with scientists?
Without qualifications, no to both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul the apostle
"For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, . . .."
Thanks for this bro Ohio. You have inadvertently brought up a reason for the POE. A few verses further down Paul says :

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men

One reason I have a problem with God as depicted in the OT is because I can't think of God in that way.

But Paul points out that God has a foolish side. That answers a lot of my problems with the OT, and explains the POE.

Thanks bro. Some new cognitive consonance achieved. Screw those scientists.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:19 AM   #1022
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Without qualifications, no to both.


Thanks for this bro Ohio. You have inadvertently brought up a reason for the POE. A few verses further down Paul says :

1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men

One reason I have a problem with God as depicted in the OT is because I can't think of God in that way.

But Paul points out that God has a foolish side. That answers a lot of my problems with the OT, and explains the POE.

Thanks bro. Some new cognitive consonance achieved. Screw those scientists.
Glad I could help.

Have a happy holiday! And, as Trump would say, "Merry Christmas."
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:35 PM   #1023
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I can remember Lee (Revelations Training?) asking for others to research and develop the precious stones in the Bible.

So he didn't like what turned up?
That call was probably contrived. I had already been sharing lots of testimonies in Houston concerning the stones, Ray Graver probably relayed this to WL, it was at the same time he was writing his book. But as a result of that call I put together a 20 page report on the 12 stones.
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Old 12-20-2016, 08:06 AM   #1024
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That call was probably contrived. I had already been sharing lots of testimonies in Houston concerning the stones, Ray Graver probably relayed this to WL, it was at the same time he was writing his book. But as a result of that call I put together a 20 page report on the 12 stones.
You still have it? I'd like to give it a read. Start a thread. Drop it into it.
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Old 12-20-2016, 07:08 PM   #1025
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If science is winning, why have they not yet solved the problem of death? By the way, you can trust me, I'm like a scientist only better, because I deal with things that are pure and are always true. The idea of things happening by chance is crazy. It's basically believing that everything came into being via a casino.

What science allows is for observations and predictions about the natural world. And many natural things involve probabilities. How are you better than science for disliking reality?
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Old 12-20-2016, 11:14 PM   #1026
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What science allows is for observations and predictions about the natural world. And many natural things involve probabilities. How are you better than science for disliking reality?
Anything that is considered supernatural does not fit into the definition of science. So religion can do what science cannot.

Many natural things exhibit chaos and randomness. But chaos and randomness cannot create new things.
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Old 12-21-2016, 08:16 AM   #1027
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Anything that is considered supernatural does not fit into the definition of science. So religion can do what science cannot.

Many natural things exhibit chaos and randomness. But chaos and randomness cannot create new things.
This is an interesting discussion but should be on the thread created by Jesus4Me titled "Science v. the Bible."

Might I suggest ya copy this response there ... I'd do it, but don't want to thwart yer free will.
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Old 12-24-2016, 06:14 PM   #1028
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Anything that is considered supernatural does not fit into the definition of science. So religion can do what science cannot.

Many natural things exhibit chaos and randomness. But chaos and randomness cannot create new things.
That's exactly what the stories of YHWH defeating Leviathan in the Hebrew Bible represent: how God brought order to chaos, much as we now understand that natural law brings orderly structure to the universe that would be chaotic without it.
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Old 12-28-2016, 09:46 AM   #1029
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That's exactly what the stories of YHWH defeating Leviathan in the Hebrew Bible represent: how God brought order to chaos, much as we now understand that natural law brings orderly structure to the universe that would be chaotic without it.
The chaos, out of which God brought order, is the beginning of the problem of evil. And since it's believed that, God is in control of everything, whether the earth "became" or not, He had to have created chaos.

So once again God is behind the problem of evil, and one or more of His Omni's are in question.
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Old 12-29-2016, 07:40 AM   #1030
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The chaos, out of which God brought order, is the beginning of the problem of evil. And since it's believed that, God is in control of everything, whether the earth "became" or not, He had to have created chaos.

So once again God is behind the problem of evil, and one or more of His Omni's are in question.
I think you're mistaken. According to the ancient mythical pattern, the hero-god brings order to pre-existing chaos. Like quantum soup of modern cosmology the chaos is timeless and uncreated. Creation ex nihilo was read into Genesis chapter one later by orthodox absolutists. Your insistence on creation ex nihilo is based on orthodox presupposition.

"In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth," is a summary of the chapter.

"the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters." describes the state of things before YHWH begins to create the universe.

"Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." is YHWH's first act of creation.
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Old 12-29-2016, 08:43 AM   #1031
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"In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth," is a summary of the chapter.
This is your addition, and not precipitated by other writings of scripture.

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"the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters." describes the state of things before YHWH begins to create the universe.
How can there be "the face of the deep" before anything was created. Creation, by definition, means to materialize something out of absolutely nothing. If something was already there, then it was restored, not created.

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"Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light." is YHWH's first act of creation.
This is your interpretation, saying "first act."

More definitely it was an act of restoration.
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Old 12-29-2016, 11:32 AM   #1032
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This is your addition, and not precipitated by other writings of scripture.
I haven't added anything. Interpreters have traditionally looked at the verse the way I did there and some still do. The Jewish Publication Society (JPS) version of 1985 offers further support for my interpretation. It translates the first three verses of Genesis this way:
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“1 When God began to create heaven and earth—2 the earth being unformed and void, with darkness over the surface of the deep and a wind from God sweeping over the water—3a God said, ‘Let there be light.’”
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How can there be "the face of the deep" before anything was created. Creation, by definition, means to materialize something out of absolutely nothing. If something was already there, then it was restored, not created.
No, people create art out of pre-existing materials everyday. You know this. Creation only means creation out of nothing when it refers to this orthodox monotheistic doctrine.

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This is your interpretation, saying "first act."
Obviously it's my interpretation. But, there long history of orthodox Christians interpreting the text that way prior to Chalmers who was reacting to geological evidence of deep time.

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More definitely it was an act of restoration.
That's your interpretation. Or, more accurately the gap creationist interpretation. What it has in common with the interpretation I am now suggesting is that it describes YHWH ordering chaos. Pember himself notes that many of the ancient cosmogonies describe creation as an emergence of order from chaos.

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The ancient poet Hesiod [perhaps about 900 B.C.] tells us that the first thing in existence was Chaos ; that is, according to its etymology, " the yawning and void receptacle for created matter." But the word soon lost its strict meaning, and was used for the crude and shapeless mass of material out of which the heavens and the earth were supposed to have been formed.

Ovid thus describes it : " There was but one appearance of nature throughout the whole world : this they called Chaos, an unformed and confused bulk " (Metam. i. 6, 7). And in his Fasti he makes Janus, whom he identifies with Chaos, speak as follows :- " The ancients used to call me Chaos : for a primeval being am I. See of how remote an age I shall recount the events ! This air, full of light, and the three remaining elements, fire, water, and earth, were a confused heap. As soon as this mass was separated through the discord of its component parts, and had dissolved and passed away into new positions, the flame ascended upwards ; a nearer place-that is, nearer to earth-received received the air ; the earth and the sea settled down to the bottom. Then I, who had been but a mass and shapeless bulk, passed into a form and limbs worthy of a god " (Fasti i.103-I I2).

Thus, according to the cosmogonies of Greece and Rome, the universe sprang from Chaos. Uranus, or Heaven, was supposed to have been the first supreme god. But he was driven from power by his son Cronos or Saturn, who afterwards received the same treatment at the hands of his son Zeus or Jupiter. Chaos was the first thing in existence, and the transient series of gods came subsequently into being.

G. H. Pember. Earth's Earliest Ages (Kindle Locations 289-299). Kindle Edition.
Dogmatic adherence to the doctrine of creation ex nihilo prevented Pember from recognizing that the Hebrew text was derived from the same tradition as the Greek texts he cites above.
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Old 12-29-2016, 09:17 PM   #1033
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Dogmatic adherence to the doctrine of creation ex nihilo prevented Pember from recognizing that the Hebrew text was derived from the same tradition as the Greek texts he cites above.
I hate to butt into this interesting conversation but my curiosity got the best of me.

This tradition you speak of, that the Hebrew and Greek texts derived from, originated where?

I'm wondering, were the Hebrews and Greeks drawing from Egyptian tradition?

Sorry for the intrusion.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:09 AM   #1034
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No, people create art out of pre-existing materials everyday. You know this. Creation only means creation out of nothing when it refers to this orthodox monotheistic doctrine.
This word struck me. We use the term "create" when we combine two or three elements for the first time. What we are really focused on is that it is something "unique", hence we "created" it.

But that is not what speaking not being as being means.

If I give you ten words there are 3,628,800 ways to combine these words. The fact that you are the first person to combine them a certain way is not equivalent to creating something out of nothing.

There is not anyone who creates stuff out of nothing "everyday".
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Old 12-30-2016, 09:33 AM   #1035
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This word struck me. We use the term "create" when we combine two or three elements for the first time. What we are really focused on is that it is something "unique", hence we "created" it.

But that is not what speaking not being as being means.

If I give you ten words there are 3,628,800 ways to combine these words. The fact that you are the first person to combine them a certain way is not equivalent to creating something out of nothing.

There is not anyone who creates stuff out of nothing "everyday".
What does creation have to do with the POE?
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:28 AM   #1036
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What does creation have to do with the POE?
I thought the basic premise of the POE is that God created a universe with Evil when He could have created it without evil.
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Old 12-30-2016, 11:49 AM   #1037
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I thought the basic premise of the POE is that God created a universe with Evil when He could have created it without evil.
You get a gold star. But okay, since chaos is considered to be of pre-existence, did it, does it, pre-exist God? Or did God create it?
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Old 12-30-2016, 01:40 PM   #1038
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I hate to butt into this interesting conversation but my curiosity got the best of me. This tradition you speak of, that the Hebrew and Greek texts derived from, originated where?
That's a great question. Based on what I have read, nobody knows the answer. But, creation myths centered on the theme of a hero-god conquering chaos were common among the societies surrounding ancient Israel and thus probably influenced the Hebrew Bible stories

The creation story entitled the Enuma Elish was written in Babylon in the 7th century BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1

It's the story of how the male sky god Marduk battled against the older female sea monster Tiamat. Marduk shot Tiamat with arrows and then crushed her head. [He "crushed the head of the serpent." Sound familiar?] Tiamat represented the dark depths of the sea. [Compare with Genesis 1:2's "formless void and darkness [that] covered the face of the deep"] To a patriarchal society like Babylon a strong female deity like Tiamat was a perfect personification of evil.

The Canaanites had their Baalhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal who "smote Lotan the ancient dragon" a "twisting serpent" with seven heads. The name Lotan is related to the Hebrew word "Leviathan" who is in turn related to the seven headed dragon of Revelation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotan

The Epic of Gilgamesh is another creation myth about a hero god conquering chaos. The earliest Gilgamesh stories date from as early as the Third dynasty of Ur around 2100–2000 BCE. Gilgamesh overcomes the monster Huwawa. Although often compared with the Noah flood story, The Gilgamesh bears striking similarity to other creation myths and clearly symbolizes the world order or the cosmos overcoming chaos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

The emerging civilizations of the Near East intuited that evil originated in the primeval darkness which had preceded their world order i.e chaos threatening cosmos. These myths were corporate expressions of that intuition. I find that understandable; don't you?

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I'm wondering, were the Hebrews and Greeks drawing from Egyptian tradition?
Perhaps. It wouldn't be surprising, regardless of the historicity of Biblical story of Israel's sojourn in Egypt, given that at one time Egypt controlled most of the Near East as vassal states and would have had a huge influence on indigenous cultures there including Israel's.
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Old 12-30-2016, 02:16 PM   #1039
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You get a gold star. But okay, since chaos is considered to be of pre-existence, did it, does it, pre-exist God? Or did God create it?
No. It is a product of rebellion. God created a universe in which people (or creatures) would choose to worship and obey Him. In such a universe there is peace and harmony when they choose to worship and obey. But since it is a choice they can also choose to rebel, which is what Satan did, and as a result there was chaos.
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Old 12-30-2016, 09:08 PM   #1040
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No. It is a product of rebellion. God created a universe in which people (or creatures) would choose to worship and obey Him. In such a universe there is peace and harmony when they choose to worship and obey. But since it is a choice they can also choose to rebel, which is what Satan did, and as a result there was chaos.
I won't ask for Bible backing of "this solution" to chaos. I'll go with it and see where it leads.

So according to this answer, chaos is a product of rebellion. But wouldn't that mean that, if there existed rebellion, or that ability, chaos was already existing before the rebellion? It was pre-spiced in, so to speak.

Let's not mention the idea that God did all this to be obeyed and worshipped. Glossing over that for now, let me just asked this, and you can clear me up if I get it wrong.

Okay, at first there was just one thing, if I may call it that : God. There was nothing else. Not even a vacuum, or waste and void. Just God.

And let's go with 'speaking' cuz it's handy. So the lone nothing-else-God, out of the nothing that itself didn't exist, said "Let there be." We don't need to go into all the details, we can see what "He' has 'spoken' into being, or enough of it anyway.

My point is that, God spoke all this out of nothing. At that point nothing existed, not even nothing, and out of that no nothing, came all of this, both good and bad, chaos and order, good and evil, and even Lucifer. It all has one source. And that is God.

Am I right so far?
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Old 12-31-2016, 05:13 AM   #1041
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I won't ask for Bible backing of "this solution" to chaos. I'll go with it and see where it leads.

So according to this answer, chaos is a product of rebellion. But wouldn't that mean that, if there existed rebellion, or that ability, chaos was already existing before the rebellion? It was pre-spiced in, so to speak.

Let's not mention the idea that God did all this to be obeyed and worshipped. Glossing over that for now, let me just asked this, and you can clear me up if I get it wrong.

Okay, at first there was just one thing, if I may call it that : God. There was nothing else. Not even a vacuum, or waste and void. Just God.

And let's go with 'speaking' cuz it's handy. So the lone nothing-else-God, out of the nothing that itself didn't exist, said "Let there be." We don't need to go into all the details, we can see what "He' has 'spoken' into being, or enough of it anyway.

My point is that, God spoke all this out of nothing. At that point nothing existed, not even nothing, and out of that no nothing, came all of this, both good and bad, chaos and order, good and evil, and even Lucifer. It all has one source. And that is God.


Am I right so far?
You are doing quite well. You have rightly connected the word of God with ex nihilo creation.

Is the explanation of the Big Bang alternative really more acceptable?

But, that's a different thread, so back to the POE, why do you have so much difficulty accepting that creation is not "perfect," only God is?

The description of the creation, status, and splendor of Lucifer implies perfection on some level, yet by possessing a free will, all his incredible assets proved dangerous for the rest of creation. The bigger question would be why would God take such a risk?

I propose redemption is the ultimate answer. The Lamb slain before the beginning of time, before the creation of the world. (Revel. 13.8) Reject that and this thread will never end. The POE then will be the neverending conundrum.
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Old 12-31-2016, 01:38 PM   #1042
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That's a great question. Based on what I have read, nobody knows the answer. But, creation myths centered on the theme of a hero-god conquering chaos were common among the societies surrounding ancient Israel and thus probably influenced the Hebrew Bible stories
Let's face it, the Hebrews didn't spring up out of a vacuum. And they certainly weren't the earliest civilization. In fact, they weren't a civilization. They were desert nomads.

That aside, Egypt was around at least 2000 yrs before the book of Genesis was written. So the book, and all the writings of the Jews (the whole 66 book Bible) could not help but be influenced not just by Egyptian mythology, but by all the surrounding nations and cultures. In short, their stories didn't just drop out of heaven, like many inerrantists believe they came from today.

I've been looking into the development of monotheism. The Jews weren't the first to cook it up. That honor goes to : Amenophis IV (Akhenaten), was an Ancient Egyptian pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty who ruled for 17 years and died perhaps in 1336 BC or 1334 BC.

Early Hebrews were around then, and could have picked up the idea from Amenophis IV. They were certainly exposed to it. And their monotheism is just about as aggressively exclusive (Nee-Lee-Local church-Darby-et al) as the monotheism of king Amenophis IV.

There's evidence there that the Hebrew stories were influenced by their association with the Egyptians. Which means, the Hebrews stole more than just gold, jewelry, cooking utensils, silver ornaments, and clothing from the Egyptians.

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The creation story entitled the Enuma Elish was written in Babylon in the 7th century BCE. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1
Written around the same time as Genesis. I particularly like this entry in the wiki article :

"The Enűma Eliš was recognized as being related to the Hebrew Genesis creation account from its first publication (Smith 1876).
In one interpretation, Genesis 1:1-3 can be taken as describing the state of chaos immediately before God's act of creation:[5]"


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Perhaps. It wouldn't be surprising, regardless of the historicity of Biblical story of Israel's sojourn in Egypt, given that at one time Egypt controlled most of the Near East as vassal states and would have had a huge influence on indigenous cultures there including Israel's.
Egypt had an influence on the history of the world. We could say that they were early on in the evolution of mythology up to today. Same with Hebrew mythology, that Israel is living out on the world stage today.
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Old 01-08-2017, 07:20 PM   #1043
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Let's face it, the Hebrews didn't spring up out of a vacuum. And they certainly weren't the earliest civilization. In fact, they weren't a civilization. They were desert nomads.

That aside, Egypt was around at least 2000 yrs before the book of Genesis was written. So the book, and all the writings of the Jews (the whole 66 book Bible) could not help but be influenced not just by Egyptian mythology, but by all the surrounding nations and cultures. In short, their stories didn't just drop out of heaven, like many inerrantists believe they came from today.

I've been looking into the development of monotheism. The Jews weren't the first to cook it up. That honor goes to : Amenophis IV (Akhenaten), was an Ancient Egyptian pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty who ruled for 17 years and died perhaps in 1336 BC or 1334 BC.

Early Hebrews were around then, and could have picked up the idea from Amenophis IV. They were certainly exposed to it. And their monotheism is just about as aggressively exclusive (Nee-Lee-Local church-Darby-et al) as the monotheism of king Amenophis IV.

There's evidence there that the Hebrew stories were influenced by their association with the Egyptians. Which means, the Hebrews stole more than just gold, jewelry, cooking utensils, silver ornaments, and clothing from the Egyptians.


Written around the same time as Genesis. I particularly like this entry in the wiki article :

"The Enűma Eliš was recognized as being related to the Hebrew Genesis creation account from its first publication (Smith 1876).
In one interpretation, Genesis 1:1-3 can be taken as describing the state of chaos immediately before God's act of creation:[5]"



Egypt had an influence on the history of the world. We could say that they were early on in the evolution of mythology up to today. Same with Hebrew mythology, that Israel is living out on the world stage today.
Does the religion of ancient Egypt shed any light on the problem of evil?
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Old 01-09-2017, 01:26 PM   #1044
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Does the religion of ancient Egypt shed any light on the problem of evil?
Needless to say the problem of evil has been around since the dawn of human history, and before that too.

I'm far from being an expert on Egyptian history, religion, and/or mythology. I depend on Egyptologists for any and all info on ancient Egypt.

Right now I'm reading "Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the rise of Monotheism" by the Egyptologist Jan Assmann.

But before offering anything on Egypt and the POE I'd like to offer this nugget I just came across:

In discussing canonization of holy writ, Assmann (sic) points out that with canonization of holy texts :

The prophet gave way to the scribe. The interpreter of Scripture replaced the interpreter of the will of God. Text and professional philological competence replaced authority based on vision and divine commission."
~ Jan Assmann. Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the Rise of Monotheism (George L. Mosse Series) (Kindle Locations 1341-1343). Kindle Edition.


In other words, The Bible replaced the movement of God on the earth, by replacing and usurping the Spirit. In my words : The Bible killed God. Now all we've got is : a book "about" God ... and what God use to do.

Sorry, I've waxed tangential. Back to the POE with next post.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:53 AM   #1045
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Needless to say the problem of evil has been around since the dawn of human history, and before that too.

I'm far from being an expert on Egyptian history, religion, and/or mythology. I depend on Egyptologists for any and all info on ancient Egypt.

Right now I'm reading "Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the rise of Monotheism" by the Egyptologist Jan Assmann.

But before offering anything on Egypt and the POE I'd like to offer this nugget I just came across:

In discussing canonization of holy writ, Assmann (sic) points out that with canonization of holy texts :

The prophet gave way to the scribe. The interpreter of Scripture replaced the interpreter of the will of God. Text and professional philological competence replaced authority based on vision and divine commission."who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
~ Jan Assmann. Of God and Gods: Egypt, Israel, and the Rise of Monotheism (George L. Mosse Series) (Kindle Locations 1341-1343). Kindle Edition.


In other words, The Bible replaced the movement of God on the earth, by replacing and usurping the Spirit. In my words : The Bible killed God. Now all we've got is : a book "about" God ... and what God use to do.

Sorry, I've waxed tangential. Back to the POE with next post.
Right "...the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Yet, knowing this intellectually doesn't prevent us making the mistake over and over. What a subtle evil it is. And yet, it is precisely this evil of missing the One Spirit that results in the very dispute that so often divides us.
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Old 01-17-2017, 10:19 AM   #1046
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Right "...the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Yet, knowing this intellectually doesn't prevent us making the mistake over and over. What a subtle evil it is. And yet, it is precisely this evil of missing the One Spirit that results in very dispute that divides us.
Now, does this phenomena i.e. mistaking dead letter for Spirit point to a free will? Or is it a product of our "Sin Nature.?" There are arguments on both sides, but no clear winner.

Evolutionary psychology explains the "Sin Nature" in terms of natural selection. Our brains evolved on the African savannas.

But, with respect to the theological POE does that make any difference to the free will defense? It does insofar as evolution implies biological and psychological determinism.

It is what Kant called an "antimony" i.e." the equally rational but contradictory results of applying to the universe of pure thought the categories or criteria of reason that are proper to the universe of sensible perception or experience (phenomena). Empirical reason cannot here play the role of establishing rational truths because it goes beyond possible experience and is applied to the sphere of that which transcends it." Wikipedia

In other words, it's a mystery. Science and the Bible not withstanding, we humans remain mysteries to ourselves.
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Old 01-17-2017, 01:50 PM   #1047
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Now, does this phenomena i.e. mistaking dead letter for Spirit point to a free will? Or is it a product of our "Sin Nature.?" There are arguments on both sides, but no clear winner.

Evolutionary psychology explains the "Sin Nature" in terms of natural selection. Our brains evolved on the African savannas.

But, with respect to the theological POE does that make any difference to the free will defense? It does insofar as evolution implies biological and psychological determinism.

It is what Kant called an "antimony" i.e." the equally rational but contradictory results of applying to the universe of pure thought the categories or criteria of reason that are proper to the universe of sensible perception or experience (phenomena). Empirical reason cannot here play the role of establishing rational truths because it goes beyond possible experience and is applied to the sphere of that which transcends it." Wikipedia

In other words, it's a mystery. Science and the Bible not withstanding, we humans remain mysteries to ourselves.
And we've been a mystery even before our ability to question our own mystery. The POE has also been just as much a mystery going back into before history disappears.

Life eats life. What a mystery ; that life is it's own evil. It's an ouroboros. The life that manages to avoid the evil of life, by say, removing from the food chain of life, wins.

Still life has to avoid the evil of other life -- out to eat it -- to remain living. Then maybe life can have the leisure time to contemplate the mystery of its existence ... while hopefully holding evil of all kinds at bay.

This has been going on since the beginning of life. The POE was born when life was born.
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Old 01-17-2017, 09:21 PM   #1048
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And we've been a mystery even before our ability to question our own mystery. The POE has also been just as much a mystery going back into before history disappears.
OK.

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Life eats life. What a mystery ; that life is it's own evil. It's an ouroboros.
Which wasn't perceived to be a problem until self-consciousness emerged. The advent of self-consciousness was simultaneously a great leap forward and a fall. It was the true "Fall of Man." It is represented in the Eden story statement they saw that they were naked and were ashamed. With self-consciousness came subjectivity... the inner life, but also the awareness of evil and sin.

Quote:
The life that manages to avoid the evil of life, by say, removing from the food chain of life, wins. Still life has to avoid the evil of other life -- out to eat it -- to remain living. Then maybe life can have the leisure time to contemplate the mystery of its existence ... while hopefully holding evil of all kinds at bay. This has been going on since the beginning of life. The POE was born when life was born.
The Fall then is the Fall into existence. But, it isn't recognized for what it is until the advent of self consciousness. Still, the POE we are discussing here is the theological problem of evil. Where is God in this picture?

Self consciousness is a fall from pre-conscious oneness with nature. To exist as a conscious living entity is to understand that you are separate from that oneness. You see that you are sinful and that the natural world is evil. Religion is about getting back to the oneness. But, since we have seen that nature has an evil side, the oneness must not be that, it must be something higher, something perfect, something "omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent"---the ultimate source of everything.
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Old 01-21-2017, 06:50 PM   #1049
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And we've been a mystery even before our ability to question our own mystery. The POE has also been just as much a mystery going back into before history disappears.

Life eats life. What a mystery ; that life is it's own evil. It's an ouroboros. The life that manages to avoid the evil of life, by say, removing from the food chain of life, wins.

Still life has to avoid the evil of other life -- out to eat it -- to remain living. Then maybe life can have the leisure time to contemplate the mystery of its existence ... while hopefully holding evil of all kinds at bay.

This has been going on since the beginning of life. The POE was born when life was born.
We look at a peaceful, serene picture of nature and we see balance, stability, and think this is how it has been forever and will be forever.

But the reality is that our "stability" is not static, it is the stability of a bicycle in motion. Every little creature from the single cell all the way to the top of the pyramid is in a constant flux and motion. 99% of their ancestors have gone extinct, and in a short period of time 99% of them will be extinct as well.

This is the way it is, this is how we got here. You can view it as cold and cruel, or you can view it as awesome that you and your ancestors got this far.

I heard a story from a caddie who caddied for Greg Norman and Tom Watson. He said that when Greg Norman hit a long drive, straight down the fairway that then rolled into a divot he would turn to the caddie and say "can you believe my bad luck". When Tom Watson did the same thing he would say "Watch this".
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:06 AM   #1050
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We look at a peaceful, serene picture of nature and we see balance, stability, and think this is how it has been forever and will be forever.

But the reality is that our "stability" is not static, it is the stability of a bicycle in motion. Every little creature from the single cell all the way to the top of the pyramid is in a constant flux and motion. 99% of their ancestors have gone extinct, and in a short period of time 99% of them will be extinct as well.

This is the way it is, this is how we got here. You can view it as cold and cruel, or you can view it as awesome that you and your ancestors got this far.

I heard a story from a caddie who caddied for Greg Norman and Tom Watson. He said that when Greg Norman hit a long drive, straight down the fairway that then rolled into a divot he would turn to the caddie and say "can you believe my bad luck". When Tom Watson did the same thing he would say "Watch this".
Great post ZNP. So the POE is not devastating. We're here! Which proves the POE is not all that bad.

Until you ask why God does it. Then it becomes a problem for those that believe in a loving God.

The existential problem of the POE is a glass half full/half empty kinda thing.

The existential problem of the POE and God can't be a glass half full or half empty thing. With God the glass has to be always full. The POE brings God down ... to at least three quarters full/three quarters empty.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:38 AM   #1051
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I'm interested in how Biblical theodicies changed over time. The Book of Daniel seems to mark a radical change is eschatology. Wikipedia says this about the dating of Daniel:

Quote:
The prophecies of Daniel are accurate down to the career of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, king of Syria and oppressor of the Jews, but not in its prediction of his death: the author seems to know about Antiochus' two campaigns in Egypt (169 and 167 BC), the desecration of the Temple (the "abomination of desolation"), and the fortification of the Akra (a fortress built inside Jerusalem), but he seems to know nothing about the reconstruction of the Temple or about the actual circumstances of Antiochus' death in late 164. Chapters 10–12 must therefore have been written between 167 and 164 BC. There is no evidence of a significant time lapse between those chapters and chapters 8 and 9, and chapter 7 may have been written just a few months earlier again. [Collins, John J. (1984). Daniel: With an Introduction to Apocalyptic Literature. Eerdmans. ISBN 9780802800206.]

Further evidence of the book's date is in the fact that Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible's canon of the prophets, which was closed around 200 BC, and the Wisdom of Sirach, a work dating from around 180 BC, draws on almost every book of the Old Testament except Daniel, leading scholars to suppose that its author was unaware of it. Daniel is, however, quoted in a section of the Sibylline Oracles commonly dated to the middle of the 2nd century BC, and was popular at Qumran at much the same time, suggesting that it was known and revered from the middle of that century.[ Hammer, Raymond (1976). The Book of Daniel. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521097659]
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That places the writing of Daniel around the 2nd century BC when Jewish apocalyptic literature flourished.

Older sections of the First Book of Enoch(mainly in the Book of the Watchers) date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC. [Fahlbusch E., Bromiley G.W. The Encyclopedia of Christianity: P–Sh page 411, ISBN 0-8028-2416-1 (2004)].

The Book of Jubilees was probably written around 160–150 BC. [ VanderKam, "Jubilees, Book of" in L. H. Schiffman and J. C. VanderKam (eds.), Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Oxford University Press (2000), Vol. I, p. 435.]

The Life of Adam and Eve also known as The Apocalypse of Moses is supposed to have been written around the first century AD. [Johnson, M.D. (1985). "Life of Adam and Eve, a new translation and introduction". In Charlesworth, J.H. the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. 2. ISBN 0-385-18813-7.]

The War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls so it probably dates from somewhere between the 2nd century BCE and prior to the Roman-Jewish War of 66-70 CE when the Qumran community disappeared. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of...ns_of_Darkness

My point is that the New Testament has a similar apocalyptic eschatology to these writings. There is evidence that the NT authors were aware of these and similar apocalyptic material and influenced by it. In terms of a theodicy to address the problem of evil, the apocalyptic writings of that time including the New Testament attribute the existence of evil to demonic powers. In this regard they are distinct from most of the earlier writings of the Hebrew Bible.
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Old 01-22-2017, 06:58 PM   #1052
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I'm interested in how Biblical theodicies changed over time. The Book of Daniel seems to mark a radical change is eschatology. Wikipedia says this about the dating of Daniel:

.
That places the writing of Daniel around the 2nd century BC when Jewish apocalyptic literature flourished.

Older sections of the First Book of Enoch(mainly in the Book of the Watchers) date from about 300 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) probably to the first century BC. [Fahlbusch E., Bromiley G.W. The Encyclopedia of Christianity: P–Sh page 411, ISBN 0-8028-2416-1 (2004)].

The Book of Jubilees was probably written around 160–150 BC. [ VanderKam, "Jubilees, Book of" in L. H. Schiffman and J. C. VanderKam (eds.), Encyclopedia of the Dead Sea Scrolls, Oxford University Press (2000), Vol. I, p. 435.]

The Life of Adam and Eve also known as The Apocalypse of Moses is supposed to have been written around the first century AD. [Johnson, M.D. (1985). "Life of Adam and Eve, a new translation and introduction". In Charlesworth, J.H. the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha. 2. ISBN 0-385-18813-7.]

The War of the Sons of Light against the Sons of Darkness was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls so it probably dates from somewhere between the 2nd century BCE and prior to the Roman-Jewish War of 66-70 CE when the Qumran community disappeared. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of...ns_of_Darkness

My point is that the New Testament has a similar apocalyptic eschatology to these writings. There is evidence that the NT authors were aware of these and similar apocalyptic material and influenced by it. In terms of a theodicy to address the problem of evil, the apocalyptic writings of that time including the New Testament attribute the existence of evil to demonic powers. In this regard they are distinct from most of the earlier writings of the Hebrew Bible.
When speaking of the end times, apocalyptic literature generally included chronologies of events that will occur and frequently places them in the near future, which gives a sense of urgency to the prophet’s broader message. Though the understanding of the present is bleak, the visions of the future are far more positive, and include divinely delivered victory and a complete reformation of absolutely everything. Many visions of these end times mirror creation mythologies, invoke the triumph of God over the primordial forces of chaos, and provide clear distinctions between light and dark, good and evil. In such revelations, humankind is typically divided into a small group that experiences salvation, while the wicked majority is destroyed. Since the apocalyptic genre developed during the Persian period, this dualism may have developed under the influence of Persian thought.[12] The imagery in apocalyptic literature is not realistic or reflective of the physical world as it was, but is rather surreal and fantastic, invoking a sense of wonder at the complete newness of the new order to come.[13]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:37 PM   #1053
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When speaking of the end times, apocalyptic literature generally included chronologies of events that will occur and frequently places them in the near future, which gives a sense of urgency to the prophet’s broader message. Though the understanding of the present is bleak, the visions of the future are far more positive, and include divinely delivered victory and a complete reformation of absolutely everything. Many visions of these end times mirror creation mythologies, invoke the triumph of God over the primordial forces of chaos, and provide clear distinctions between light and dark, good and evil. In such revelations, humankind is typically divided into a small group that experiences salvation, while the wicked majority is destroyed. Since the apocalyptic genre developed during the Persian period, this dualism may have developed under the influence of Persian thought.[12] The imagery in apocalyptic literature is not realistic or reflective of the physical world as it was, but is rather surreal and fantastic, invoking a sense of wonder at the complete newness of the new order to come.[13]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature
If you are going to talk about Trump's inaugural speech why not do it in the thread on "he takes the wise in their craftiness" or in the Box 13 thread?
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Old 01-22-2017, 08:42 PM   #1054
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When speaking of the end times, apocalyptic literature generally included chronologies of events that will occur and frequently places them in the near future, which gives a sense of urgency to the prophet’s broader message. Though the understanding of the present is bleak, the visions of the future are far more positive, and include divinely delivered victory and a complete reformation of absolutely everything. Many visions of these end times mirror creation mythologies, invoke the triumph of God over the primordial forces of chaos, and provide clear distinctions between light and dark, good and evil. In such revelations, humankind is typically divided into a small group that experiences salvation, while the wicked majority is destroyed. Since the apocalyptic genre developed during the Persian period, this dualism may have developed under the influence of Persian thought.[12] The imagery in apocalyptic literature is not realistic or reflective of the physical world as it was, but is rather surreal and fantastic, invoking a sense of wonder at the complete newness of the new order to come.[13]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalyptic_literature
Right, by the time of Jesus, the apocalypticism had become the prevalent world view among the Jews. While there are few mentions of Satan in the Hebrew Bible, apocalyptic literature is full of them. As Ehrman puts it:

Quote:
Jewish apocalypticists were dualists. That is to say, they maintained that there were two fundamental components to all of reality: the forces of good and the forces of evil. The forces of good were headed by God himself, the forces of evil by his superhuman enemy, sometimes called Satan, or Beelzebub, or the Devil. On the side of God were the good angels; on the side of the Devil were the demons. On the side of God were righteousness and life; on the side of the Devil were sin and death. These were actual forces, cosmic powers to which human beings could be subject and with which they had to be aligned. No one was in neutral territory. People stood either with God or with Satan, they were in the light or in darkness, they were in the truth or in error.

Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (Kindle Locations 2265-2270). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.
What caused the change in thinking among the Jews? Foreign influences. The dualism came from Zoroastrianism as practiced by their Persian rulers and the words diabolos and daimon [devil and demon] came from from their Greek rulers. Add to that the desperation that came from suffering under centuries of successive foreign rulers with little realistic hope of overcoming and the apocalyptic world-view begins to make sense.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:06 PM   #1055
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:11 PM   #1056
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If you are going to talk about Trump's inaugural speech why not do it in the thread on "he takes the wise in their craftiness" or in the Box 13 thread?
Like you said, ZNP : "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." No one connected Trump to apocalypticism but you.
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Old 01-23-2017, 05:33 AM   #1057
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Like you said, ZNP : "...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." No one connected Trump to apocalypticism but you.
Apocalyptic believers desperately want to cleanse what they see as a corrupt and sinful world. While they are not all violent, the more imminent the apocalypse is believed to be, the more potential for destructive actions, says Richard Landes, the former head of the Center for Millennial Studies at Boston University. “Apocalyptic thought is unbelievably disruptive,” he says. The title of Robert Jay Lifton’s book about the Japanese cult Aum Shinrikyo, which hoped to provoke Armageddon with a 1995 nerve gas attack on a Tokyo subway, was: “Destroying the World to Save it.” (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0d4093a5722aa)

Donald Trump

[Discourse of Salvation]
“Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities; rusted-out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation; an education system, flush with cash, but which leaves our young and beautiful students deprived of knowledge; and the crime and gangs and drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential. This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.”

[rage at a perceived humiliation]
“We’ve made other countries rich while the wealth, strength, and confidence of our country has disappeared over the horizon.
One by one, the factories shuttered and left our shores, with not even a thought about the millions upon millions of American workers left behind. The wealth of our middle class has been ripped from their homes and then redistributed across the entire world.
But that is the past. And now we are looking only to the future. We assembled here today are issuing a new decree to be heard in every city, in every foreign capital, and in every hall of power. From this day forward, a new vision will govern our land. From this moment on, it’s going to be America First.”

[conspiracism]
“For too long, a small group in our nation’s Capital has reaped the rewards of government while the people have borne the cost.
Washington flourished – but the people did not share in its wealth. Politicians prospered – but the jobs left, and the factories closed.
The establishment protected itself, but not the citizens of our country.”

[We are God's agents]
“January 20th 2017, will be remembered as the day the people became the rulers of this nation again.”


The activists claim: 'we are God's agents and have to bring about the apocalyptic transformation.' When they believe that the apocalypse calls for cataclysmic destruction, they deem they can 'save the world by destroying it.' Often their first and most feared targets are Jews and Judaism.
"Hitler's aim for a thousand year 'Reich' - a millennial kingdom - represented the quintessence of the most negative aspects of violent, apocalyptic action. Nazism exploded from a toxic cocktail of conspiracism, rage at a perceived humiliation of the German people, and complete contempt for human life, all the while using the discourse of the salvation of the Aryan race to win over converts. It could thereby inspire 'modern' people, capable of handling sophisticated technology, to engage in the most inhumane activities with a good conscience. The Holocaust was an apocalyptic deed." (http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-24.htm)


I think it is very clear that I am not the first to make this connection. Anyone who has compared Trump to Hitler has made this connection. The marches on Saturday were stunning in their scope (worldwide -- major cities and small towns. My sister was in Denver, my brother in Boston, a friend in NY, and my Mom in a small town in upstate NY also had a march). As the day approaches we will have those, like yourself, who bury their head in the sand. This is a person who has advocated the use of torture, blowing up families to "get the bad guys", and grabbing women by the genitals. I don't think you can rule out inhuman actions and violence as a possibility. Or am I the first person to be offended and take notice of this? I mean, if 1.5 million people were at the inauguration I think it is equally factual to say that 1.5 million have noted these signs.
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Old 01-23-2017, 11:45 AM   #1058
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ZNP---I was referring to this thread. Harold wasn't referring to Trump nor was anyone else.

But, thanks for supplying an example of hysterical apocalyptic speculation. I thought Obama was the Anti-Christ. Now it's Trump?

Wait, what about Bill Clinton? Wait, what about George W.H. Bush with his New World Order?

This kind of speculation has been going on for a couple thousand years. The historical church grew tired of it and turned to focusing on heaven when you die. That trend had already started by 100AD. The Gospel of John is devoid of apocalypticism.

But, during times of rapid social upheaval like the one we are in apocalypticism appeals to people particularly when their anxiety evokes a need for an instant immediate answer. Apocalyptic literature like the Book of Revelation is vague enough that definite identification would be impossible.

Yet it is endlessly enticing to a certain mind-set. Then too there is the underlying intuition based on human finitude that we are doomed.

Based on science, the sun is an average size star that eventually flame out and go extinct. If we haven't already destroyed ourselves or been destroyed by an asteroid, that will do it.

But, of course, by then we might have an interstellar Ark. Hope springs eternal.
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Old 01-23-2017, 12:25 PM   #1059
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I have two questions:

1) Why did the New Testament explode with apocalypticism?

2) Is it related to the POE?
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Old 01-23-2017, 12:36 PM   #1060
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ZNP---I was referring to thus thread. Harold wasn't referring to Trump nor was anyone else.

But, thanks for supplying an example of hysterical apocalyptic speculation. I thought Obama was the Anti-Christ. Now it's Trump?

Wait, what about Bill Clinton? Wait, what about George W.H. Bush with his New World Order?

This kind of speculation has been going on for a couple thousand years. The historical church grew tired of it and turned to focusing on heaven when you die. That trend had already started by 100AD. The Gospel of John is devoid of apocalypticism.

But, during times of rapid social upheaval like the one we are in apocalypticism appeals to people particularly when their anxiety evokes a need for an instant immediate answer. Apocalyptic literature like the Book of Revelation is vague enough that definite identification would be impossible.

Yet it is endlessly enticing to a certain mind-set. Then too there is the underlying intuition based on human finitude that we are doomed.

Based on science, the sun is an average size star that eventually flame out and go extinct. If we haven't already destroyed ourselves or been destroyed by an asteroid, that will do it.

But, of course, by then we might have an interstellar Ark. Hope springs eternal.
Yes, that is part of the point. You can't run a presidential campaign without a discourse of salvation, a rage at humiliation, a hint of conspiracism, and an element of God's agents.

What distinguishes ISIS, KKK, and Hitler from the rest is their willingness to resort to extreme violence and destruction.

I think Trump has certainly given people reason for concern and to be extremely vigilant, but at this point there is nothing to suggest more than a need for concern.

If you are in the military and the commander in chief has said that he will order you to torture prisoners in violation of the Geneva conventions, that is without a doubt a concern. These conventions were written in response to Hitler, so it would certainly be "Hitleresque" to violate this treaty in this way. Why the mock surprise, I am pretty sure that 1.5 million people have already realized this.
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Old 01-23-2017, 08:55 PM   #1061
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ZNP, I'll give you this much, Trump seems to think he is the messiah. I saw the video of him speaking at CIA Headquarters. He said
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And I said “well it was almost raining”. The rain should have scared them away. But God looked down and he said “we’re not going to let it rain on your speech”.

In fact, when I first started I said “oh no”. First line, I got hit by a couple of drops. And i said “oh, this is too bad, but we’ll go right through it”. But the truth is: that it stopped immediately. It was amazing. And then it became really sudden, and then I walked off and it poured right after I left - it poured. https://www.lawfareblog.com/presiden...a-headquarters
He declared his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion." The guy is delusional and he's taking the nation along on his massive Ego Trip. Step aside Jesus, the New Messiah has arrived.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:13 PM   #1062
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Trump supports Israel, and in the minds of many Christians that is all that matters.
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:26 PM   #1063
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Trump supports Israel, and in the minds of many Christians that is all that matters.
Are not there many scripture to support this support?
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Old 01-23-2017, 09:28 PM   #1064
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I have two questions:

1) Why did the New Testament explode with apocalypticism?
Like I said: What caused the change in thinking among the Jews? Foreign influences. The dualism came from Zoroastrianism as practiced by their Persian rulers and the words diabolos and daimon [devil and demon] came from from their Greek rulers. Add to that the desperation that came from suffering under centuries of successive foreign rulers with little realistic hope of overcoming and the apocalyptic world-view begins to make sense.

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Around the time of the Maccabean revolt, when the oppressive policies of Antiochus Epiphanes became too much for many Jews in Palestine to bear, when they were forbidden on pain of death from keeping the Law of Moses, some of them came up with another solution. In their view, the suffering of God’s people could not be explained as a penalty for their sin. God surely would not punish his people for doing what was right, for keeping his laws, for example. Why, then, did the people suffer?

There must have been some other supernatural agency, some other superhuman power that was responsible. God was not making his people suffer; his enemy, Satan, was. According to this new way of thinking, God was still in control of this world in some ultimate sense. But for unknown and mysterious reasons he had temporarily relinquished his control to the forces of evil that opposed him. This state of affairs, however, was not to last forever. Quite soon, God would reassert himself and bring this world back to himself, destroying the forces of evil and establishing his people as rulers over the earth. When this new Kingdom came, God would fulfill his promises to his people.

Bart D. Ehrman. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (Kindle Locations 2254-2262). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.
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2) Is it related to the POE?
Of course. It proposes an explanation for the existence of evil of cosmic proportions. As you are aware, Ehrman details the numerous historical problems with this theodicy in his book "God's Problems: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Suffer."

An even more basic problem is why an all-powerful God would allow Satan and his demons to reign in the first place. The free will defense really doesn't answer the question because with Satan and his demonic hordes plus our unchosen inherited sin nature, the cards are stacked against us. The New Testament answer seems to be that God stacked the deck against us so that there would be only one viable choice--accept Jesus Christ His Son or suffer for eternity. Do I have that right? Is that the dilemma an all-powerful, all-wise, omni-benevolent God would set before an individual? And, if so, why?
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Old 01-23-2017, 10:57 PM   #1065
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Are not there many scripture to support this support?
Yes, there is.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:11 AM   #1066
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ZNP, I'll give you this much, Trump seems to think he is the messiah. I saw the video of him speaking at CIA Headquarters. He said

He declared his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion." The guy is delusional and he's taking the nation along on his massive Ego Trip. Step aside Jesus the New Messiah has arrived.
Your chronic liberalism is a mental disorder.

Perhaps ZNP has some Biblical "antibiotics" that could help you.

.

At least when Trump mentions the name of God, he refers to the Lord Jesus. The last guy had allah on his mind.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:00 AM   #1067
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Trump supports Israel, and in the minds of many Christians that is all that matters.
He is also anti abortion, which to many is the most important issue. This is especially important seeing as he will be nominating 2 or even 3 Supreme court justices.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:00 AM   #1068
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Trump supports Israel, and in the minds of many Christians that is all that matters.
Well there is that one other thing. But yes, and matters more than their love of their neighbors. Israel matters more than human life to them. The Jesus killers are somehow the good guys now. They love those of the synagogue of Satan.

This is evil. Don't know if this politic stuff belongs here, but this all in for Israel thing, among Evangelicals, proves that, the Bible can produce the POE.
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Old 01-24-2017, 09:11 AM   #1069
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Well there is that one other thing. But yes, and matters more than their love of their neighbors. Israel matters more than human life to them. The Jesus killers are somehow the good guys now. They love those of the synagogue of Satan.

This is evil. Don't know if this politic stuff belongs here, but this all in for Israel thing, among Evangelicals, proves that, the Bible can produce the POE.
I think this horrible P.O.E. only exists on this little forum in alt-cyber-space.
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Old 01-24-2017, 10:09 AM   #1070
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Are not there many scripture to support this support?
A couple of Psalms? Maybe another OT verse?

How many are in the NT? And how many of those OT verses are repeated or underscored in the NT?

I am not in favor of abandoning Israel. But I am not so sold on the claim that there is blessing in the NT age for the support of Israel due to an OT verse.

Are there really "many" supporting this?

Is it really true that "every promise in the book is mine"?
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Old 01-24-2017, 11:58 AM   #1071
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As I pointed out below, one of apocalyptic texts that influenced the New Testament writers was The Book of Enoch. Enoch is quoted in Jude 14:


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ENOCH 2 Behold, he comes with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him.
Quote:
JUDE 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.
According to Wikipedia:
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This first section of the Book of Enoch describes the fall of the Watchers, the angels who fathered the Nephilim (cf. the bene Elohim, Genesis 6:1–2) and narrates the travels of Enoch in the heavens. This section is said to have been composed in the 4th or 3rd century BC according to Western scholars.
In case anyone has forgotten Genesis 6:1-2 says

Quote:
Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
Enoch calls the "Watchers" because they they liked to look at human females. But, they did more than watch them . They copulated and impregnated them and produced the Nephalim.

The Watcher Angels were led by an angel named Smyaza. They taught humans all kind of wicked things including astrology and the art of enchantment. They taught women to wear make-up. According to Enoch The fallen watcher angels, their offspring the Nephalim and the humans that follow them will face Judgment and be punished.

The Nephalim are described this way:
Quote:
And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three hundred ells:[69] Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood.
Enoch also refers to the devil as Gadreel whom he blames for leading Eve astray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadreel

The Book of Enoch is also linked by some to First Peter.

Quote:
ENOCH 1:6 … Judgment shall come upon all, even upon all the righteous.

I PET. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
The link between the apocalyptic Book of Enoch and New Testament demonology is thus established.
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Old 01-24-2017, 12:54 PM   #1072
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ZNP, I'll give you this much, Trump seems to think he is the messiah. I saw the video of him speaking at CIA Headquarters. He said

He declared his inauguration day a "National Day of Patriotic Devotion." The guy is delusional and he's taking the nation along on his massive Ego Trip. Step aside Jesus the New Messiah has arrived.
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Originally Posted by Ohio
Your chronic liberalism is a mental disorder.

Perhaps ZNP has some Biblical "antibiotics" that could help you.
.
At least when Trump mentions the name of God, he refers to the Lord Jesus. The last guy had allah on his mind.
Yer a funny guy bro Ohio. That "antibiotics" crack hit my funny bone.

But doesn't politics and political party's expose our dualistic thinking ; a white hat/black hat ; a black and white ; a good and evil ; a God and Satan ; kind of thinking?

Why do we fall for that? Dualism creates evil actions, or at least evil thoughts, toward "the other," and does not represent the love Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount.

Jesus could have led a band of insurrectionists against Rome but he didn't. Jesus could have gotten into the politics of his day but he didn't. Jesus was a man of peace (the Jesus of the gospels, that is, not so much the Jesus of Revelation).

Jesus was an apocalypticist. He believed not in violence but that God would intervene in history, to settle the score with Rome, and ring in His kingdom.

But it didn't. So : "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me."

Still today believers are waiting. But Jesus never expected that there would ever be a 21st century. He thought God would intervene shortly.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


To Jesus, the POE was soon to be done away with, by God's intervention into history, in his generation.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:12 PM   #1073
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The link between the apocalyptic Book of Enoch and New Testament demonology is thus established.
But why? Why the need to embrace apocalypticism? I posit that they had to believe that God would rescue them eventually ; that God wouldn't abandon them, and had a fix sometime in the near future.

So coming decades after Jesus, near the end of the first century, we have Revelation, that opens up in the very first verse saying : "things which must shortly come to pass." And ends with, "Surely I come quickly."

What means "shortly?" And what means "quickly?"
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:14 PM   #1074
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Are not there many scripture to support this support?
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A couple of Psalms? Maybe another OT verse?

How many are in the NT? And how many of those OT verses are repeated or underscored in the NT?

I am not in favor of abandoning Israel. But I am not so sold on the claim that there is blessing in the NT age for the support of Israel due to an OT verse.

Are there really "many" supporting this?
Read God's covenant to Abraham (beginning in Gen 12.3) which is regularly repeated, then confirmed again to Isaac, Jacob, then to Israel and the corporate Israel. Read the Prophets. This promise of Yahweh to "bless those who bless you, and curse them who curse you" resounds on nearly every page of scripture.

The blessing of the NT age is spiritual and heavenly in Christ. Our covenant as a people of faith is a better covenant, with better blessings. Our covenant with God was secured on the cross by the shedding of the blood of the Lamb of God. The New Covenant differs from the Old in one remarkable way -- we are blessed by enduring unrighteousness and persecution, even martyrdom. We are even commanded to love and forgive our enemies while they put us to death.

But God has not forgotten His promises to Israel. Soon the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. God will restore Israel, her land, her temple, and her sacrifices.

Personally I believe that the most significant event of the 21st century occurred 2 days before Christmas, when Obama surreptitiously orchestrated U.N. Resolution 2334. Apparently the US Gov't stabbed Israel in the back, but I believe God will use it for good. That corrupt resolution by a worthless organization removed once for all the possibility of trading land for peace for a two-state solution, and also stole the land of the temple mount with the "wailing wall" from Israel and gave it to their enemies. Israel will never permit this. I also think that this Resolution will one day be used by many nations, under the auspices of the UN, to attack Israel at Armageddon, causing their Messiah to physically return again to the Mount of Olives.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:26 PM   #1075
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But why? Why the need to embrace apocalypticism? I posit that they had to believe that God would rescue them eventually ; that God wouldn't abandon them, and had a fix sometime in the near future.

So coming decades after Jesus, near the end of the first century, we have Revelation, that opens up in the very first verse saying : "things which must shortly come to pass." And ends with, "Surely I come quickly."

What means "shortly?" And what means "quickly?"
"Shortly" and "quickly" mean for us to get ready, to prepare ourselves, since tomorrow is never guaranteed to us.
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Old 01-24-2017, 01:30 PM   #1076
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Jesus could have led a band of insurrectionists against Rome but he didn't. Jesus could have gotten into the politics of his day but he didn't. Jesus was a man of peace (the Jesus of the gospels, that is, not so much the Jesus of Revelation).

Jesus was an apocalypticist. He believed not in violence but that God would intervene in history, to settle the score with Rome, and ring in His kingdom.

But it didn't. So : "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me."
It did not happen .... yet!

And Jesus quoted David on the cross as He became a curse on the cross for your sins.
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:10 PM   #1077
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Every decision Trump will make, some based on the Bible, some based on stupidity, will cause a problem of evil. He is basically making the USA into a North Korea - kill trade deals, build a wall, under the mantra of self-sufficiency and isolationism. We all know how self-sufficiency worked out for the North Koreans.

It is clear to me that Trump is trying to bring about the next financial crisis as quickly as possible, he is trying to cause evil.

This has been the agenda of the Global Elite's for some time, and Trump is part of the Global Elite for sure. A global reset is the only way to fix the world economy, and America's.

There is a book by Jim Rickards:

The Road to Ruin: The Global Elites’ Secret Plan for the Next Financial Crisis

https://lfb.org/ice-9-jim-rickards-r...-ways-protect/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/indias-...lution/5561601
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:25 PM   #1078
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Every decision Trump will make, some based on the Bible, some based on stupidity, will cause a problem of evil. He is basically making the USA into a North Korea - kill trade deals, build a wall, under the mantra of self-sufficiency and isolationism. We all know how self-sufficiency worked out for the North Koreans.

It is clear to me that Trump is trying to bring about the next financial crisis as quickly as possible, he is trying to cause evil.

This has been the agenda of the Global Elite's for some time, and Trump is part of the Global Elite for sure. A global reset is the only way to fix the world economy, and America's.
The Global Elites just love Trump, that's why they unleashed every weapon they have at him.

Trump wants trade deals that benefit the USA. I guess that makes him the next kim-jong-un.

Maybe you should stick to defending the LCM.

Trump is a patriot, a friend of Israel, and an DC outsider, perhaps that is why he is so hated.
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:33 PM   #1079
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But why? Why the need to embrace apocalypticism? I posit that they had to believe that God would rescue them eventually ; that God wouldn't abandon them, and had a fix sometime in the near future.

So coming decades after Jesus, near the end of the first century, we have Revelation, that opens up in the very first verse saying : "things which must shortly come to pass." And ends with, "Surely I come quickly."

What means "shortly?" And what means "quickly?"
Did you read post#1064?
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Old 01-24-2017, 02:48 PM   #1080
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The Global Elites just love Trump, that's why they unleashed every weapon they have at him.

Trump wants trade deals that benefit the USA. I guess that makes him the next kim-jong-un.

Maybe you should stick to defending the LCM.

Trump is a patriot, a friend of Israel, and an DC outsider, perhaps that is why he is so hated.
The parallels between Trump and the LCM are remarkable, I am amazed you do not see it. What Trump has done is similar to what you believe Lee did with the LSM. Attract followers by portraying himself as anti-institutionalized religion/denominations, only to raise up a new institution (LSM) with himself and family at the head. One global elite replaces another.

You are speaking of one faction of the Global Elites, Hillary and co. But Trump is from the other faction. He is friend of Israel for a reason. Look up Trump's connection to the Rothschilds and who supported his business dealings and his 30 year campaign to be President. Trump is not supporting Israel just because he read how much God loves Israel in the Bible. It is because his friends own most of it. Most if not all Republicans are connected in one way or another to the Rothschilds and for that reason typically support Israel. Trump has already proved himself to be a liar on many things. He portrays himself as being anti-global elite and anti-establishment, and he is where it concerns one faction. But that does not mean he is not part of the global elite - you would have to research his financiers and backers over the last decades to see what he is really about.
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Old 01-24-2017, 03:24 PM   #1081
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The parallels between Trump and the LCM are remarkable, I am amazed you do not see it. What Trump has done is similar to what you believe Lee did with the LSM. Attract followers by portraying himself as anti-institutionalized religion/denominations, only to raise up a new institution (LSM) with himself and family at the head. One global elite replaces another.

You are speaking of one faction of the Global Elites, Hillary and co. But Trump is from the other faction. He is friend of Israel for a reason. Look up Trump's connection to the Rothschilds and who supported his business dealings and his 30 year campaign to be President. Trump is not supporting Israel just because he read how much God loves Israel in the Bible. It is because his friends own most of it. Most if not all Republicans are connected in one way or another to the Rothschilds and for that reason typically support Israel. Trump has already proved himself to be a liar on many things. He portrays himself as being anti-global elite and anti-establishment, and he is where it concerns one faction. But that does not mean he is not part of the global elite - you would have to research his financiers and backers over the last decades to see what he is really about.
Some evangelicals say Trump is the present day Cyrus, king of Persia. He was part of the global elite, wasn't he? God can use even the global elites of the world.

Many believers prayed for this election. Do you think our heavenly Father gave them a scorpion?
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Old 01-24-2017, 03:40 PM   #1082
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Some evangelicals say Trump is the present day Cyrus, king of Persia. He was part of the global elite, wasn't he? God can use even the global elites of the world.

Many believers prayed for this election. Do you think our heavenly Father gave them a scorpion?
It's possible. The Israelite's insisted on having a king and God begrudgingly gave it to them.
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:20 PM   #1083
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Yer a funny guy bro Ohio. That "antibiotics" crack hit my funny bone.

But doesn't politics and political party's expose our dualistic thinking ; a white hat/black hat ; a black and white ; a good and evil ; a God and Satan ; kind of thinking?
It is worse in the US now because of gerrymandering. When they rig the jurisdiction this way to get safe districts for Republicans and Democrats the result is that Republicans have to move to the right to get elected and Democrats have to move to the left.

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Why do we fall for that? Dualism creates evil actions, or at least evil thoughts, toward "the other," and does not represent the love Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount.
Dualism? Any complex issue has two sides. Think of the death penalty, I can think of 3 or 4 great reasons why this should be outlawed, and 3 or 4 even better reasons why it shouldn't. What creates evil actions is when you promote extreme policies that are beyond what could be considered reasonable. Imprisoning people the way we do today is completely unreasonable 4,000 years ago.

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Jesus could have led a band of insurrectionists against Rome but he didn't. Jesus could have gotten into the politics of his day but he didn't. Jesus was a man of peace (the Jesus of the gospels, that is, not so much the Jesus of Revelation).

Jesus was an apocalypticist. He believed not in violence but that God would intervene in history, to settle the score with Rome, and ring in His kingdom.

But it didn't. So : "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me."

Still today believers are waiting. But Jesus never expected that there would ever be a 21st century. He thought God would intervene shortly.

Luk 21:31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


To Jesus, the POE was soon to be done away with, by God's intervention into history, in his generation.
OK, a different example of how a complex issue can have two sides. You clearly have one side on this that I can see, and yet disagree with.
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:23 PM   #1084
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But why? Why the need to embrace apocalypticism? I posit that they had to believe that God would rescue them eventually ; that God wouldn't abandon them, and had a fix sometime in the near future.

So coming decades after Jesus, near the end of the first century, we have Revelation, that opens up in the very first verse saying : "things which must shortly come to pass." And ends with, "Surely I come quickly."

What means "shortly?" And what means "quickly?"
I think "shortly" and "quickly" are from the perspective of the Jesus Christ, the incarnated God.

In God's point of view human history is about 6 days long. From that view perspective his coming will be "shortly" and "quickly".
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:27 PM   #1085
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Every decision Trump will make, some based on the Bible, some based on stupidity, will cause a problem of evil. He is basically making the USA into a North Korea - kill trade deals, build a wall, under the mantra of self-sufficiency and isolationism. We all know how self-sufficiency worked out for the North Koreans.

It is clear to me that Trump is trying to bring about the next financial crisis as quickly as possible, he is trying to cause evil.

This has been the agenda of the Global Elite's for some time, and Trump is part of the Global Elite for sure. A global reset is the only way to fix the world economy, and America's.

There is a book by Jim Rickards:

The Road to Ruin: The Global Elites’ Secret Plan for the Next Financial Crisis

https://lfb.org/ice-9-jim-rickards-r...-ways-protect/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/indias-...lution/5561601
This is not at all clear to me. What I think is clear is that he begins his negotiating by staking out the most extreme position that can be believed. From there he will "negotiate" which is just another word for compromise.

This approach is precisely the approach the Chinese have used with us for years.

You need to read "the Art of the Deal" if you want to get an insight on what he is doing. "The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it. That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you're dead." (Donald Trump). He is going to renegotiate our trade with China and instead of appearing desperate he will appear as though he is set on protectionism (that may seem stupid to you, but catastrophic to China).

You should also be aware that he did take over a boondoggle in NY, the ice skating rink in Central park, and he got it done on time and under budget.

This is also what he is doing with Abortion. He has to make 2 Supreme court nominees, taking this strong anti abortion stance now gives him leverage in negotiating with senators and congressmen. He can appear to compromise with them on his nominees in exchange for them to work with him on some of his other issues. In the end the pro death camp can come away feeling like "it could have been worse" whereas the pro life will say "hey, we couldn't have done better than this".
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:29 PM   #1086
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Some evangelicals say Trump is the present day Cyrus, king of Persia. He was part of the global elite, wasn't he? God can use even the global elites of the world.

Many believers prayed for this election. Do you think our heavenly Father gave them a scorpion?
He is definitely focused on his "economic battle" with China. As a result he cannot afford to have too many battles, hence embracing Evangelicals, Israel, Russia, Unions, etc. In this respect the situation is not that different from Cyrus.
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Old 01-24-2017, 04:31 PM   #1087
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The Global Elites just love Trump, that's why they unleashed every weapon they have at him.

Trump wants trade deals that benefit the USA. I guess that makes him the next kim-jong-un.

Maybe you should stick to defending the LCM.

Trump is a patriot, a friend of Israel, and an DC outsider, perhaps that is why he is so hated.
I am praying for him.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:09 PM   #1088
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This is not at all clear to me. What I think is clear is that he begins his negotiating by staking out the most extreme position that can be believed. From there he will "negotiate" which is just another word for compromise.

This approach is precisely the approach the Chinese have used with us for years.

You need to read "the Art of the Deal" if you want to get an insight on what he is doing. "The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it. That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you're dead." (Donald Trump). He is going to renegotiate our trade with China and instead of appearing desperate he will appear as though he is set on protectionism (that may seem stupid to you, but catastrophic to China).

You should also be aware that he did take over a boondoggle in NY, the ice skating rink in Central park, and he got it done on time and under budget.

This is also what he is doing with Abortion. He has to make 2 Supreme court nominees, taking this strong anti abortion stance now gives him leverage in negotiating with senators and congressmen. He can appear to compromise with them on his nominees in exchange for them to work with him on some of his other issues. In the end the pro death camp can come away feeling like "it could have been worse" whereas the pro life will say "hey, we couldn't have done better than this".
I don't think the adversarial and rude approach like Trump does is the Chinese way. The book also reveals how he hired con men, thieves, and sanctions swearing at children, and hitting on married women. It's all in the book too. His tactic is to use every filthy word he can think of, and make every threat he can think of. That's what he suggests is a good approach to get things done. The Chinese do not use that tactic as a rule, they are much more subtle.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:26 PM   #1089
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I don't think the adversarial and rude approach like Trump does is the Chinese way.
You are kidding right? Prostitution is run by the state in China. Even in the 1980s they used women to serve tea. Wang Yo Chen, one of the richest men in Taiwan and roughly analogous to Trump has several mistresses that he keeps in various villas. That is the expected behavior of a billionaire in China. It is my experience, living in Taiwan for 8 years, that the Chinese are very rude and insulting. Yes, they can put on a show of politeness, but to a foreigners face will completely insult them in Chinese. As I learned to speak Chinese and learned more about how the country worked my American sensibilities were shocked to say the least.

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The book also reveals how he hired con men, thieves, and sanctions swearing at children, and hitting on married women. It's all in the book too. His tactic is to use every filthy word he can think of, and make every threat he can think of. That's what he suggests is a good approach to get things done. The Chinese do not use that tactic as a rule, they are much more subtle.
So then we can agree that he is following his game plan.

The Chinese are much more subtle when working with the US because so far all of the US leaders have been very poor negotiators, though for some that was by design. We gave China very favorable deals as an incentive for them to make the difficult transition from communism to capitalism. We have been subsidizing this transition. So I don't blame Nixon or Kissinger. But, let's be real, the Chinese are not going to abandon capitalism now, and they certainly don't need us to subsidize their economy anymore.

But have the Chinese really been so subtle when dealing with Taiwan or Japan?
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:49 PM   #1090
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This is not at all clear to me. What I think is clear is that he begins his negotiating by staking out the most extreme position that can be believed. From there he will "negotiate" which is just another word for compromise.

This approach is precisely the approach the Chinese have used with us for years.

You need to read "the Art of the Deal" if you want to get an insight on what he is doing. "The worst thing you can possibly do in a deal is seem desperate to make it. That makes the other guy smell blood, and then you're dead." (Donald Trump). He is going to renegotiate our trade with China and instead of appearing desperate he will appear as though he is set on protectionism (that may seem stupid to you, but catastrophic to China).

You should also be aware that he did take over a boondoggle in NY, the ice skating rink in Central park, and he got it done on time and under budget.

This is also what he is doing with Abortion. He has to make 2 Supreme court nominees, taking this strong anti abortion stance now gives him leverage in negotiating with senators and congressmen. He can appear to compromise with them on his nominees in exchange for them to work with him on some of his other issues. In the end the pro death camp can come away feeling like "it could have been worse" whereas the pro life will say "hey, we couldn't have done better than this".
Obama promised to balance the budget -- then he doubled the deficit, exceeding the debt of 43 prior Presidents.

Obama promised a "purple" nation without partisanship, color blind to race -- instead we got "black lives matter" leaders with daily access to the White House. Police officers gunned down for their uniform.

Obama promised complete bi-partisan transparency -- instead we got legislation without Republicans even allowed to read it.

Obama promised he would always have Israel's back -- instead he stabbed them in the back. His final executive action was sending money to the Palestinians.

Obama promised health insurance savings -- instead he pushed the law thru the SCOTUS claiming it was a tax increase along.

Obama gave us Stimulus pork barrel projects, Operation Fast and Furious, IRS targeting conservatives, Benghazi murders, private servers, Pigford, NSA spying, trading Taliban generals for the traitor Bergdahl, release of Gitmo terrorists, funding Iranian nukes, polluting Colorado rivers, VA death lists, lavish spending, secret service parties, maximum pain on Americans when the House tried to reduce spending, Planned Parenthood body parts for sale, etc.

Trump: I have never seen a President take such decisive action -- exactly matching campaign promises. Imagine that -- a President whose campaign promises actually meant something to him. How refreshing! How much better for the country to have a president who owns golf courses than to have one who loves to play on them!

So the liberals have decided to attack his wife and children. They pay their professional rioters to disrupt and scare off the Inauguration guests, and then claim few people even showed up to watch. Obama removes the bust of Churchill, but then Trump is falsely accused of removing MLK.

Deception, it's all about deception. And even those who claim to be Evangelical Christians get hung up on his distasteful comments.

That's the real POE.
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Old 01-24-2017, 06:57 PM   #1091
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It's possible. The Israelite's insisted on having a king and God begrudgingly gave it to them.
Israel wanted a king because the sons of Samuel (Witness Lee's so-called "Acting God") the prophet were as bad as Eli's sons.

Sounds more like the politics at LSM than currently at the White House.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:00 PM   #1092
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Trump: I have never seen a President take such decisive action -- exactly matching campaign promises. Imagine that -- a President whose campaign promises actually meant something to him. How refreshing! How much better for the country to have a president who owns golf courses than to have one who loves to play on them!

So the liberals have decided to attack his wife and children. They pay their professional rioters to disrupt and scare off the Inauguration guests, and then claim few people even showed up to watch. Obama removes the bust of Churchill, but then Trump is falsely accused of removing MLK.

Deception, it's all about deception. And even those who claim to be Evangelical Christians get hung up on his distasteful comments.

That's the real POE.
“If Trump carries out his campaign pledge, China’s exports to the U.S., worth $483 billion in 2015, could collapse. Needless to say, American exports to China, estimated at $116 billion as of 2015, will plunge as China retaliates.” (http://fortune.com/2016/11/10/donald-trump-china-trade/)

Our GDP is $16.7 Trillion in 2013 so we are talking about losing less than 1% of our economy. No doubt losing the cheap imports would cause a certain level of inflation here in the US. But, and this is important to understand 3d printers and robotics are going a long way to replacing cheap labor. If instead of one factory a company had a number of smaller factories spread around the country with 3d printers they might be able to offset the cheap Chinese labor with “just in time” manufacturing that takes place as the order is made, quicker delivery and less transportation costs.

By comparison China’s GDP is $10 Trillion, so $483 billion would be 5%. If they lost this they would have 0 growth in their economy and it would be a minor miracle if they didn’t go into a recession if not full blown depression. But without growth they cannot grow their capital, and without the capital they cannot invest in the high tech 3d printers and robotics we just discussed. The only option they would have to “stop” Trump would be to go nuclear and cash all of the US debt they have amassed. That would definitely put the world into a depression. That would be worst case scenario for US, a return to the good old days of FDR. But for China it would be a return to the good old days described in “The Good Earth”: famine and cannibalism. The Chinese leaders are still very much aware of the cultural revolution, I feel very confident that they have a very healthy fear of the worst case scenario. Besides, Trump could threaten to declare bankruptcy which would mean they would get pennies on the dollar for their debt.

Instead, they could opt for the best case scenario. Renegotiate, primarily by letting their money be accurately valued. That would result in a more level playing field for the rest of the world, a better standard of living for many Chinese, lower growth in China, a relative devaluing of our debt, etc. It would be difficult for them to achieve world domination, but it would still be a lot better than eating your neighbors kid for dinner.

Who would sweat more, China at the thought that we would replace them, or us over the inflation and short term loss of cheap goods at Walmart? Also, the people who voted for Trump would be the ones getting those nice jobs with the 3d printers and robots.

I think Trump can pull this off, but we are definitely heading into some very rough seas and it is going to be thrilling to watch.
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Old 01-24-2017, 07:42 PM   #1093
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Taking action is one thing, taking the right action is another. Rather they take time to consider the actions than rush headstrong into it. That's what Bush did when deciding to take out Saddam, based upon no or faulty intelligence. We all know what that resulted in.
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Old 01-24-2017, 08:17 PM   #1094
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Read God's covenant to Abraham (beginning in Gen 12.3) which is regularly repeated, then confirmed again to Isaac, Jacob, then to Israel and the corporate Israel. Read the Prophets. This promise of Yahweh to "bless those who bless you, and curse them who curse you" resounds on nearly every page of scripture.
I'm pretty much Bible ignorant. So could you point out how Gen 12:3 is on nearly every page of scripture. I've read it from cover to and didn't and don't see what you are seeing on every page.

And Gen 12:3 says "thee" and I don't think applies to Israel to all times. That's just stretching and torturing that verse way far too out of shape.
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Old 01-24-2017, 08:25 PM   #1095
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Taking action is one thing, taking the right action is another. Rather they take time to consider the actions than rush headstrong into it. That's what Bush did when deciding to take out Saddam, based upon no or faulty intelligence. We all know what that resulted in.
I like sailing analogies for Presidents and world leaders. We have seen this storm growing and growing ever since I was in Taiwan.

If you are in a boat and a storm is coming you have two choices

1. You can run from it if you have enough time to find a safe port.

otherwise

2. You have to hit it head on.

There is no other choice. You cannot run with a storm, the waves will carry you into the rocks. You cannot hit the waves at an angle, they will flip your boat. Some of these monster waves are 60 feet high. Well, this storm with China is going to be a monster.

Let's be realistic, we had two possible captains -- Clinton or Trump. Clinton is someone who was running from the waves. She (Obama and Bill) were willing to give away the store rather than deal with this. They were "wringing their hands" with China but it was clear they weren't going to tackle this head on. Also she was incapable of bluffing, there was way too much track record for anyone to believe that.

With Trump will he be willing to declare bankruptcy? Will he really slap 45% tariff on them? Does he really think the US can move manufacturing back to the US?

No one knows, but so far it seems he plans on following up on every promise he made.

When I lived in Taiwan I was impressed by how close to the edge the Chinese live. Every summer they use the entire military to bring the harvest in from the country side to the cities. They have to co opt the trains to make this work. Just a slight disruption in that transportation results in food shortages in the city. If they were to go to war with Taiwan there would be massive disruption to that supply line (the Taiwanese are already on the mainland in sleeper cells).

My point is that Chinese leaders put on a strong face but they hang on by a thread and they know it. Shutting down $486 billion worth of business, even temporarily, is not an option for them. We are concerned about soup kitchens, they are concerned about the famines you read of in history books.

Are you really going to compare the "faulty intelligence" of WMD's with the intelligence involved in GDP, World Trade, and Trade deficits? No one is rushing headlong, this was something that should have been dealt with 8 years ago. It would not have been appropriate for Bush, right after 911.
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Old 01-24-2017, 08:33 PM   #1096
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I'm pretty much Bible ignorant. So could you point out how Gen 12:3 is on nearly every page of scripture. I've read it from cover to and didn't and don't see what you are seeing on every page.

And Gen 12:3 says "thee" and I don't think applies to Israel to all times. That's just stretching and torturing that verse way far too out of shape.
I don't understand, maybe you can help me with this. Why would anyone be against blessing Israel?

It seems to me, and again maybe you can clear this up, but if you were to curse Israel that would be equivalent to cursing ourselves. I cannot visualize the Middle East without Israel and by extension the US. Especially since the Bible has laid out a simple path to peace. Why wouldn't we take it?
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Old 01-24-2017, 08:43 PM   #1097
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Taking action is one thing, taking the right action is another. Rather they take time to consider the actions than rush headstrong into it. That's what Bush did when deciding to take out Saddam, based upon no or faulty intelligence. We all know what that resulted in.
We know that Saddam used chemical weapons on whole cities of Kurds. Chemical weapons are WMD, are they not?

Bush's failure was hoping to bring democracy to an islamic country.
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Old 01-25-2017, 08:23 AM   #1098
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Here is a link to the text of The Book of Enoch http://www.futurerevealed.com/enoch/BookEnoch.pdf

Key concepts in Enoch are found in the New Testament, including Son of Man, the Chosen One, Paradise, hell, and a coming day of judgment by fire. In Luke 9:35 is an important concept of the Book of Enoch, that of the "Chosen One": "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my beloved Son: hear him." The word translated "beloved" is ἐκλελεγμένος which means The Elect One or The Chosen One, a term found fourteen times in Enoch and is one of the key concepts of the book. Luke understood Jesus of Nazareth to be the Chosen One prophesied in The Book of Enoch. Here, for example is Chapter 45 of the book:

—And this is the second Parable concerning those who deny the name of the
dwelling-place of the holy and of the Lord of the spirits. 2. They will not ascend to heaven,
and will not come on the earth; such will be the portion of the sinners who deny the name
of the Lord of the spirits, who are thus preserved to the day of suffering and sorrow. 3. On
that day the Chosen One will sit upon the throne of glory, and will choose among their [i.e.
men’s] deeds and places without number, and their spirit will become strong in them when
they see my Chosen One and those who have called upon my holy and glorious name. 4.
And on that day I will cause my Chosen One to dwell among them, and will transform
heaven and make it a blessing and a light eternally. 5. And I will transform the earth and
make it a blessing, and will cause my chosen ones to dwell thereon; and those who have
committed sins and crimes will not step on it. 6. For I have seen and satisfied with peace my
just ones, and have placed them before me; but for the sinners there awaits before me a
judgment, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:15 AM   #1099
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Here is a link to the text of The Book of Enoch http://www.futurerevealed.com/enoch/BookEnoch.pdf

Key concepts in Enoch are found in the New Testament, including Son of Man, the Chosen One, Paradise, hell, and a coming day of judgment by fire. In Luke 9:35 is an important concept of the Book of Enoch, that of the "Chosen One": "And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, 'This is my beloved Son: hear him." The word translated "beloved" is ἐκλελεγμένος which means The Elect One or The Chosen One, a term found fourteen times in Enoch and is one of the key concepts of the book. Luke understood Jesus of Nazareth to be the Chosen One prophesied in The Book of Enoch. Here, for example is Chapter 45 of the book:

—And this is the second Parable concerning those who deny the name of the
dwelling-place of the holy and of the Lord of the spirits. 2. They will not ascend to heaven,
and will not come on the earth; such will be the portion of the sinners who deny the name
of the Lord of the spirits, who are thus preserved to the day of suffering and sorrow. 3. On
that day the Chosen One will sit upon the throne of glory, and will choose among their [i.e.
men’s] deeds and places without number, and their spirit will become strong in them when
they see my Chosen One and those who have called upon my holy and glorious name. 4.
And on that day I will cause my Chosen One to dwell among them, and will transform
heaven and make it a blessing and a light eternally. 5. And I will transform the earth and
make it a blessing, and will cause my chosen ones to dwell thereon; and those who have
committed sins and crimes will not step on it. 6. For I have seen and satisfied with peace my
just ones, and have placed them before me; but for the sinners there awaits before me a
judgment, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth.
Now that's interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but Enoch was written starting around 300 B.C.E, with sections written around 100 C.E. So it preceded Daniel by a hundred years.

This seems to be around the time that Judaism was becoming apocalyptic. It's obvious by references in the New Testament that at least some, if not all, the writers of the New Testament were familiar with the book of Enoch. Did the book of Enoch open up the door of apocalypticism, first to the Jews, then to the Christian writers, that has come down to us today? Were the books of Daniel and Revelation influenced by the book of Enoch?

I read the book of Enoch some time ago. It looks and smells like Daniel and Revelation.

In the end, given the violence in the books, these books are covered up with the POE.
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:43 AM   #1100
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We know that Saddam used chemical weapons on whole cities of Kurds. Chemical weapons are WMD, are they not?

Bush's failure was hoping to bring democracy to an islamic country.
I think the Arab uprising in Egypt proves that they would welcome democracy.

I think our problem is our approach. We will spend any amount to blow things up, yet when it is time to rebuild what then?

I think our military should have a sixth branch (instead of a pentagram make it a star of David). This sixth branch should get 1/6th of the Pentagon's budget. It should be the Peace corp. They will have bulldozers, engineers, construction foremen, teachers, etc. They go into so many of these third world countries and they do whatever is necessary. Dig wells, build schools, roads, etc. If we had done this in Iraq it would have been a very different story. We defeated Saddam's army, left everyone unemployed with large stockpile of weapons and then left.
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Old 01-25-2017, 11:00 AM   #1101
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I think the Arab uprising in Egypt proves that they would welcome democracy.

I think our problem is our approach. We will spend any amount to blow things up, yet when it is time to rebuild what then?

I think our military should have a sixth branch (instead of a pentagram make it a star of David). This sixth branch should get 1/6th of the Pentagon's budget. It should be the Peace corp. They will have bulldozers, engineers, construction foremen, teachers, etc. They go into so many of these third world countries and they do whatever is necessary. Dig wells, build schools, roads, etc. If we had done this in Iraq it would have been a very different story. We defeated Saddam's army, left everyone unemployed with large stockpile of weapons and then left.
At the core of islamic culture is the requirement that their secular leader and their religious leader be the same. This exists no where in the western world. This is perhaps the number one frustration to democracy.

The uprisings in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and almost Syria proved that once a moderate yet strong leader is removed, then in his place a more radical form of islam emerges, not some movement towards democracy.
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:46 PM   #1102
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At the core of islamic culture is the requirement that their secular leader and their religious leader be the same. This exists no where in the western world. This is perhaps the number one frustration to democracy.

The uprisings in Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Libya, and almost Syria proved that once a moderate yet strong leader is removed, then in his place a more radical form of islam emerges, not some movement towards democracy.
I think what we are seeing here is an environmental catastrophe. that is what has happened in most of these places though Iraq and Iran were also facilitated by war. It is akin to Mad Max.
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:54 PM   #1103
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Read God's covenant to Abraham (beginning in Gen 12.3) which is regularly repeated, then confirmed again to Isaac, Jacob, then to Israel and the corporate Israel. Read the Prophets. This promise of Yahweh to "bless those who bless you, and curse them who curse you" resounds on nearly every page of scripture.
A little presumptuous to think that a reference to those who bless Abraham is a forever blessing now related to Israel.

Again, I am not suggesting withdrawing support. But I think that we are putting too much importance on something that a secular nation is doing with respect to who we are and what we do as Christians.

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The blessing of the NT age is spiritual and heavenly in Christ. Our covenant as a people of faith is a better covenant, with better blessings.
Yes. And none of those blessings relate to America's treatment of Israel.

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But God has not forgotten His promises to Israel. Soon the times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled. God will restore Israel, her land, her temple, and her sacrifices.
Soon.

As in "this generation will not pass away until . . . ." There have been good reasons to believe in every generation that the time was close, or "soon."

I am not saying to despair or to assume that it is not soon. It is best to simultaneously assume both soon and not in my lifetime. Assume soon so that you do not slack-off in diligence in our charge as those of the kingdom. But not in this lifetime that we do not ignore now pining for the great by-and-by in in that miss the charge for this age.

While I agree that God has not forgotten his promises to the Children of Israel, whether that translates simply into the support for the modern nation of Israel is not a given. And not forgetting his promise to Israel is not the same as retaining the promise of blessing for those that support the nation of Israel.

But whether or not your position on it is correct, I do not see what it really does for me, a believer who is striving to keep my walk according to the Spirit, and bear the image of God in this age. It is quite possible that support for Israel, or at least the position in favor of that, will come from such a life. But I do not see a need to seek out the application of an ancient blessing not repeated in the past 2,400 years and not clearly applicable. And crying out in despair over the actions of someone who is not a Christian (or is at least questionable as to being one) or the actions of a nation is not my charge in this life. My charge is not to make everyone follow my rules without first deciding to follow the Maker of those rules.
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:20 PM   #1104
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A little presumptuous to think that a reference to those who bless Abraham is a forever blessing now related to Israel.
God has established a few tests in scripture.

How Israel is treated is one test.

How we treat Christ is another test.

How we treat His brothers is another test.
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:41 PM   #1105
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Now that's interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but Enoch was written starting around 300 B.C.E, with sections written around 100 C.E. So it preceded Daniel by a hundred years.

This seems to be around the time that Judaism was becoming apocalyptic. It's obvious by references in the New Testament that at least some, if not all, the writers of the New Testament were familiar with the book of Enoch. Did the book of Enoch open up the door of apocalypticism, first to the Jews, then to the Christian writers, that has come down to us today? Were the books of Daniel and Revelation influenced by the book of Enoch?

I read the book of Enoch some time ago. It looks and smells like Daniel and Revelation.

In the end, given the violence in the books, these books are covered up with the POE.
Correction. The book of Enoch was written between 300 B.C.E and 100 B.C.E. Not 100 C.E. as I wrote. Sorry. My bad.

But more. Enoch is indeed full of imagery like Daniel and Revelation, and is full of demons and spirits, and apocalyptic themes.

In the Hebrew legacy in the OT demons were not so big and prominent as in the book of Enoch. Then, 100 years later this Enoch like demonology continues in the New Testament.

So, if Jude was reading Enoch, how many other of the NT writers were reading Enoch? Is that why we find Enoch like demonology in the NT? And also similar apocalyptic themes?
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Old 01-25-2017, 01:47 PM   #1106
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God has established a few tests in scripture.

How Israel is treated is one test.

How we treat Christ is another test.

How we treat His brothers is another test.
Are these tests, since seeming so important, spelled out clearly in a doctrinal cohesive discourse somewhere in the Bible, or are they of your own making, or that of others?
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:13 PM   #1107
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Are these tests, since seeming so important, spelled out clearly in a doctrinal cohesive discourse somewhere in the Bible, or are they of your own making, or that of others?
The Bible provides little "doctrinal cohesive discourse."

I already quoted Genesis 12.3 for the first one.

I'll let you find the second.

The third one is found in Matthew 25.32-46.

Perhaps others exist too.
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Old 01-25-2017, 02:41 PM   #1108
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The Bible provides little "doctrinal cohesive discourse."

I already quoted Genesis 12.3 for the first one.

I'll let you find the second.

The third one is found in Matthew 25.32-46.

Perhaps others exist too.
Thanks bro Ohio for additional verses. I must be blind tho. I don't see Gen 12:3 in the verses you provided. Perhaps you made a mistake and led me to the wrong verses. Can you double check it and give me the right verses?
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Old 01-25-2017, 03:20 PM   #1109
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Thanks bro Ohio for additional verses. I must be blind tho. I don't see Gen 12:3 in the verses you provided. Perhaps you made a mistake and led me to the wrong verses. Can you double check it and give me the right verses?
3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Seems very straightforward.

Why didn't you answer my question? For what reason would the US not want to bless Israel?
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Old 01-25-2017, 05:24 PM   #1110
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God has established a few tests in scripture.

How Israel is treated is one test.

How we treat Christ is another test.

How we treat His brothers is another test.
Tests of what?

Do you really see anything that directs the Gentiles (Christians) to make any kind of special deference to the nation of Israel? (from 400BC forward)

I find verses that indicate I need to believe in Christ or I am "out."

I find instructions that we are to treat all those in Christ like, well, all those in Christ. And that is commonly phrased in such a way as to indicate that those in Christ are part of a family. They used the term "brothers" a lot.

I even find that we are supposed to treat any "neighbor" like I would treat myself. Or more accurately stated, love them as I love myself. And since I don't hate myself, I do not rail on them because they (or at least some of them) are sinners — especially those "horrible" sinners. Problem is that I love myself too much to be that harsh on myself, therefore I do not treat them that way.

And in doing all of that, I note that if you think the OT rule applies, the only problem was if you curse Abraham or Isaac, or Jacob (Israel) or his children. Blessing them got a blessing. Cursing them got a curse. Doing nothing got . . . what exactly? So not sending them aid . . . do you call that a curse?

And all of this is predicated on the presumption that because God said it in the OT it remains true now. One of those "every promise in the book is mine" kind of things. Like the Prayer of Jabez. Is there really any God-ordained principle at work in that? On what basis do we declare that the nation of Israel has actually existed since about 70 AD. Is it definite that the promise carries over to the UN-created country that has existed since about 1948 (and at war from day 1)?

Does providing any kind of aid to those various nations surrounding Israel constitute a curse on Israel? (Most all have national laws designed to see the nation of Israel wiped off the earth.) If so, then how does providing aid to Israel actually offset that? Or does it just return us to neutral?

Seems to me more like the religious looking for excuses for national problems or national prosperity. But the prosperity of America has gone up and down in cycles since day one. And they are not tied to Israel. Israel wasn't even around most of the life of this country. To what do we blame or credit the more distant past?
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Old 01-25-2017, 05:40 PM   #1111
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Tests of what?

Do you really see anything that directs the Gentiles (Christians) to make any kind of special deference to the nation of Israel?
They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
- Romans 15:27 (NIV)
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Old 01-25-2017, 05:49 PM   #1112
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3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Seems very straightforward.

Why didn't you answer my question? For what reason would the US not want to bless Israel?
Because of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Real Christians, living by the teaches of Jesus, can't support that kind of treatment ... almost like Nazi Germany treat the Jews. When they (Israelis) say, "Never again" they obviously don't mean other people, but only them.
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Old 01-25-2017, 05:59 PM   #1113
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They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
- Romans 15:27 (NIV)
Again, you are seeing things that aren't there. Paul is talking about he saints in Jerusalem, and bringing them money. He's not talking about Israel.
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Old 01-25-2017, 06:07 PM   #1114
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Because of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Real Christians, living by the teaches of Jesus, can't support that kind of treatment ... almost like Nazi Germany treat the Jews. When they (Israelis) say, "Never again" they obviously don't mean other people, but only them.
They have returned to Israel, I have no issue with that, they were being obedient and it was seen as critical for their survival.

The Palestinians did not welcome them but rather attempted to wipe them out, so I don't take issue with Israel fighting for their survival.

However, even if it was justified at some point, they continued to steal property from the Palestinians long after it was a matter of survival. They moved the Palestinians into refugee camps, put them behind barbed wire and walls, and forced them to live as refugees in their own land and as second class citizens. Partly this is due to very bad stewardship by the Palestinian leadership and the misplaced belief that the surrounding nations would destroy Israel.

Still Israel's treatment of this people is not righteous, it is not according to the word of the Bible and they will not have peace until they are obedient to what the Bible says. But I think it would be easy for the US to step in bless Israel, bless the Palestinians, and be blessed as well.
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Old 01-25-2017, 06:16 PM   #1115
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Because of what Israel is doing to the Palestinians. Real Christians, living by the teaches of Jesus, can't support that kind of treatment ... almost like Nazi Germany treat the Jews. When they (Israelis) say, "Never again" they obviously don't mean other people, but only them.
Hogwash!

The Palestinians are victims here, but not by the Israelis, rather they are victims of their own evil leaders.
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Old 01-25-2017, 06:19 PM   #1116
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Hogwash!

The Palestinians are victims here, but not by the Israelis, rather they are victims of their own evil leaders.
The situation is not righteous. Dealing with it in a way that is right is not the same as "cursing Israel".

Anyone who reads the history knows that the Palestinians are victims of inept and evil leadership. But that doesn't change the fact that they are victims and the current situation is not righteous. Until we are obedient to what the Bible says there will be no peace.
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Old 01-25-2017, 07:45 PM   #1117
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Again, you are seeing things that aren't there. Paul is talking about he saints in Jerusalem, and bringing them money. He's not talking about Israel.
There's no distinction made in the scripture. Paul went to the temple. You can't distinguish Israel from the saints here.
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:03 PM   #1118
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They have returned to Israel, I have no issue with that, they were being obedient and it was seen as critical for their survival.

The Palestinians did not welcome them but rather attempted to wipe them out, so I don't take issue with Israel fighting for their survival.

However, even if it was justified at some point, they continued to steal property from the Palestinians long after it was a matter of survival. They moved the Palestinians into refugee camps, put them behind barbed wire and walls, and forced them to live as refugees in their own land and as second class citizens. Partly this is due to very bad stewardship by the Palestinian leadership and the misplaced belief that the surrounding nations would destroy Israel.

Still Israel's treatment of this people is not righteous, it is not according to the word of the Bible and they will not have peace until they are obedient to what the Bible says. But I think it would be easy for the US to step in bless Israel, bless the Palestinians, and be blessed as well.
Well amen to all that. Except the "The Palestinians did not welcome them but rather attempted to wipe them out." It is Israel that have the weapon power to wipe out, from us ... because Christians here have an obsessive fetish for Israel.
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Old 01-25-2017, 09:13 PM   #1119
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Well amen to all that. Except the "The Palestinians did not welcome them but rather attempted to wipe them out." It is Israel that have the weapon power to wipe out, from us ... because Christians here have an obsessive fetish for Israel.
Because a few Christians here have a love for Israel, based on the scripture, then it becomes some "obsessive fetish."

Puleeeese.

God help us!

Save us from abusive MOTA's!
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Old 01-26-2017, 09:23 AM   #1120
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Because a few Christians here have a love for Israel, based on the scripture, then it becomes some "obsessive fetish."

Puleeeese.

God help us!

Save us from abusive MOTA's!
Lol ... Why do I say obsessive fetish?

I was born the year Israel became a state. All my life I've heard from Christians : "Israel, Israel, Israel." (I'm hearing it now.) If it were just love for Israel it wouldn't be a problem, but it's way way more than that. To them if you don't support Israel you're not a Christian. Which is strange, coming from gentiles. Jesus came to the Jews. They rejected him. It went to the gentiles. The church is now the real Israel. Not the state of Israel. That's clearly of men, not God. That can be confirmed by the history of the founding of Israel. So why this obsession with Israel, that goes beyond love for it?

Example:
I have a cousin here. We've always gotten along marvelously. We use to talk everyday, and meet for lunch from time to time. He's a Sunday school teacher at a Southern Baptist church. I attended his class a few times. He was kind enough to tell me that I didn't belong in the Baptist church. That wasn't a problem for him.

One day we got on the subject of Israel. When he found I wasn't a blind supporter of Israel he quoted Gen. 12:3 and that was the end of our friendship. He won't talk to me any more. I guess to him if I don't support Israel I'm worse than an atheist. He's fine if I not a Baptist, but not fine with me not being a blind supporter of Israel. Gen. 12:3 has made him superstitious about Israel.

And that to me is an obsessive fetish.
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Old 01-26-2017, 10:01 AM   #1121
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I don't like the word fetish either. So I'm changing it to "obsessive bewitching." In that, Christians have been bewitch by what the book of Revelation calls, "the synagogue of Satan."
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Old 01-26-2017, 10:21 AM   #1122
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Well amen to all that. Except the "The Palestinians did not welcome them but rather attempted to wipe them out." It is Israel that have the weapon power to wipe out, from us ... because Christians here have an obsessive fetish for Israel.
Because I support Israel, thus I have "an obsessive fetish for Israel"?

You did say "Christians here" on this forum, and then you "prove" it by telling us some story about your cousin, who cut off your friendship. I'm thinking there's much more to the story than you're letting on. Perhaps you disrupted his Sunday School class on every visit? Sounds like the kind of thing you might do, all the while chuckling under your breath. I would like to hear his side of the story.

Fetish is defined as "a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc." Yup, that accurately defines my support for Israel, based on Genesis 12.3 and other verses.

Perhaps your disdain for Israel has clouded your judgment? Perhaps it is you who have some secret "fetish" for them mooslems. Do you fantasize over Moohammud? No doubt, these are serious questions demanding extensive inquiry.
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Old 01-26-2017, 11:39 AM   #1123
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They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.
- Romans 15:27 (NIV)
Paul is not talking about the nation of Israel, but the Christians who were Jews living in Jerusalem. Not really meaningful to the question raised.
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Old 01-26-2017, 12:05 PM   #1124
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Paul is not talking about the nation of Israel, but the Christians who were Jews living in Jerusalem. Not really meaningful to the question raised.
I really don't see the difference between blessing the Jews in Jerusalem and blessing Israel. Do you really think that God had those distinctions in mind when He spoke Gen 12.3 et. al. to Abraham and his descendants?

Do you also see huge distinctions between merely cursing the inhabitants of Jerusalem and cursing Israel?
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Old 01-26-2017, 12:11 PM   #1125
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I really don't see the difference between blessing the Jews in Jerusalem and blessing Israel. Do you really think that God had those distinctions in mind when He spoke Gen 12.3 et. al. to Abraham and his descendants?

Do you also see huge distinctions between merely cursing the inhabitants of Jerusalem and cursing Israel?
It was not a gift to Jews in general, but to the Christians in Jerusalem. That is very different from the nation of Israel.
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Old 01-26-2017, 12:58 PM   #1126
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Well amen to all that. Except the "The Palestinians did not welcome them but rather attempted to wipe them out." It is Israel that have the weapon power to wipe out, from us ... because Christians here have an obsessive fetish for Israel.
The weapons given to Israel were not from "christians" but from the US government, a secular government that is separated from Christianity.

Our government didn't give them weapons because of Bible prophecy, we gave them weapons because they are an absolutely crucial military base for maintaining peace between Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iraq.

Israel's success as an economic power has given them the clout to purchase weapons to defend themselves, a right that every single nation has and exercises, and given the history of Israel since 1948 they would be idiotic to not exercise.

Nor have we given Israel aid to the exclusion of others. Saudi Arabia and Egypt have both received huge amounts of military hardware from the US.

Why do you think it is that every single president supports Israel, because of the Bible or because of the strategic importance?
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Old 01-26-2017, 01:02 PM   #1127
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Lol ... Why do I say obsessive fetish?

I was born the year Israel became a state. All my life I've heard from Christians : "Israel, Israel, Israel." (I'm hearing it now.) If it were just love for Israel it wouldn't be a problem, but it's way way more than that. To them if you don't support Israel you're not a Christian. Which is strange, coming from gentiles. Jesus came to the Jews. They rejected him. It went to the gentiles. The church is now the real Israel. Not the state of Israel. That's clearly of men, not God. That can be confirmed by the history of the founding of Israel. So why this obsession with Israel, that goes beyond love for it?

Example:
I have a cousin here. We've always gotten along marvelously. We use to talk everyday, and meet for lunch from time to time. He's a Sunday school teacher at a Southern Baptist church. I attended his class a few times. He was kind enough to tell me that I didn't belong in the Baptist church. That wasn't a problem for him.

One day we got on the subject of Israel. When he found I wasn't a blind supporter of Israel he quoted Gen. 12:3 and that was the end of our friendship. He won't talk to me any more. I guess to him if I don't support Israel I'm worse than an atheist. He's fine if I not a Baptist, but not fine with me not being a blind supporter of Israel. Gen. 12:3 has made him superstitious about Israel.

And that to me is an obsessive fetish.
I'm still not clear about which definition of fetish you are using. Is it the "abnormal sexual desire" or is it the "worship of an inanimate object"?

Either way, I think you are hanging around some very strange Christians and this could really explain a lot.
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Old 01-26-2017, 01:06 PM   #1128
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I really don't see the difference between blessing the Jews in Jerusalem and blessing Israel. Do you really think that God had those distinctions in mind when He spoke Gen 12.3 et. al. to Abraham and his descendants?

Do you also see huge distinctions between merely cursing the inhabitants of Jerusalem and cursing Israel?
Did awareness ever explain why anyone would want to curse Israel?

If they don't want to curse them then why do they have a problem with the US blessing them?
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Old 01-26-2017, 03:54 PM   #1129
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Israel plays an important role in Christian apocalyptic theodicy. When I was in the LCM, Jesus was supposed to return by 1988 within a generation from the founding of modern Israel in 1948 based on Jesus' fig tree parable and his "this generation shall not pass away" prophesy.
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Old 01-26-2017, 04:06 PM   #1130
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Israel plays an important role in Christian apocalyptic theodicy. When I was in the LCM, Jesus was supposed to return by 1988 within a generation from the founding of modern Israel in 1948 based on Jesus' fig tree parable and his "this generation shall not pass away" prophesy.
There was some discussion on this point some time back (either here or on the old Berean forum). I thought that the year Lee pushed was something like 96 or 97.

At the time I noted that this is about the point that Lee died. Didn't have to be stoned for a false prophecy. He just died of old age, or whatever it was that was ailing him.
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:01 PM   #1131
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You did say "Christians here" on this forum, and then you "prove" it by telling us some story about your cousin, who cut off your friendship. I'm thinking there's much more to the story than you're letting on. Perhaps you disrupted his Sunday School class on every visit? Sounds like the kind of thing you might do, all the while chuckling under your breath. I would like to hear his side of the story.
No, he said I was a pleasant contributor. What's funny is that after his class I was attending a Baptist church down by the lake. One of my customers told me that the preacher was a Bapitecostal. I was curious of what meant. I attended there for about 8 months, both adult Sunday school class, and worship service. What's funny is that the teacher of the class lived up the road from me, and I was invite to cookouts at his house. He told me that someone was inquiring about me. It turned to be my cousin. He want to know if I disrupted the class. He was told the same thing that, I was a pleasant addition to the class.

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Perhaps your disdain for Israel has clouded your judgment? Perhaps it is you who have some secret "fetish" for them mooslems. Do you fantasize over Moohammud? No doubt, these are serious questions demanding extensive inquiry.
You're a funny guy bro Ohio. My cousins brother gave me a book entitle "The 100 most influential people in history." I was surprised. I thought it would be Jesus. But number one was Mohammad. Why. Because he proselytized his religion and Jesus didn't.

Have I fantasized about that? Do I have a Mohammad fetish? No. I never met the guy.

But I've noticed something about Gen. 12:3. It doesn't even hold up in the Bible, much less recently and currently. What kind of blessing do you expect for blessing the state of Israel? Does it make your life better, and solve all your problems? Is God pouring out His blessings on you because you bless the state of Israel?
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:35 PM   #1132
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There was some discussion on this point some time back (either here or on the old Berean forum). I thought that the year Lee pushed was something like 96 or 97.

At the time I noted that this is about the point that Lee died. Didn't have to be stoned for a false prophecy. He just died of old age, or whatever it was that was ailing him.
I'm not surprised that Lee would find reasons to push the date forward. But I understand that the theory started with a former NASA rocket engineer named Edgar Whisenant who wrote a book entitled, Eighty-eight Reasons Why the Rapture Will Occur in 1988. Do you suppose their still printing that one?
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Old 01-26-2017, 06:59 PM   #1133
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Either way, I think you are hanging around some very strange Christians and this could really explain a lot.
People are strange. Christian or otherwise.
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Old 01-26-2017, 07:24 PM   #1134
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Did awareness ever explain why anyone would want to curse Israel?

If they don't want to curse them then why do they have a problem with the US blessing them?
I don't want to curse Israel. I just don't think we should be sending weapons, like phosphorus bombs, as Obama did when Israel was attacking Gaza, and killing children. And we shouldn't be sending billions to support them, like we do every year. The Palestinians were created equal by their creator to. To Israel they are Amalekites, who deserve to be treated any way Israel wants to treat them, like killing them and stealing their lands and homes, or mowing them down with bulldozers.

Don't tell me the modern world is no longer determined by mythology. The Jews, most who have no blood ties to Abraham, or the Bible, and no right to "take the promised land" are using ancient Bible mythology that gives them the right to :

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

And Christians, because it has to do with their magic book, just fall for it ... thinking if Israel takes all the land and rebuilds the temple they'll get their precious Jesus back, no matter the cost of the neighbors they are suppose to be loving.

Don't tell me we aren't mythologically determined, even today. That's a joke.
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Old 01-26-2017, 07:42 PM   #1135
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I don't want to curse Israel. I just don't think we should be sending weapons, like phosphorus bombs, as Obama did when Israel was attacking Gaza, and killing children. And we shouldn't be sending billions to support them, like we do every year. The Palestinians were created equal by their creator to. To Israel they are Amalekites, who deserve to be treated any way Israel wants to treat them, like killing them and stealing their lands and homes, or mowing them down with bulldozers.

Don't tell me the modern world is no longer determined by mythology. The Jews, most who have no blood ties to Abraham, or the Bible, and no right to "take the promised land" are using ancient Bible mythology that gives them the right to :

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

And Christians, because it has to do with their magic book, just fall for it ... thinking if Israel takes all the land and rebuilds the temple they'll get their precious Jesus back, no matter the cost of the neighbors they are suppose to be loving.

Don't tell me we aren't mythologically determined, even today. That's a joke.
Well, perhaps sending them phosphorous weapons is cursing them.

Don't you think that making peace with the Palestinians would bless Israel?

How many times do you guys fall for this stuff. The Bible says to bless Israel so regardless of what we do they will sell it as "blessing Israel" and wrap themselves in God's word. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

This is why I say we should be obedient to what the Bible says. For someone who has argued that there is no reference to bacteria in the Bible despite all of the very obvious references, where exactly does the Bible say that giving phosphorous bombs is equivalent to "blessing someone"?
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Old 01-26-2017, 07:45 PM   #1136
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I don't want to curse Israel. I just don't think we should be sending weapons, like phosphorus bombs, as Obama did when Israel was attacking Gaza, and killing children. And we shouldn't be sending billions to support them, like we do every year. The Palestinians were created equal by their creator to. To Israel they are Amalekites, who deserve to be treated any way Israel wants to treat them, like killing them and stealing their lands and homes, or mowing them down with bulldozers.

Don't tell me the modern world is no longer determined by mythology. The Jews, most who have no blood ties to Abraham, or the Bible, and no right to "take the promised land" are using ancient Bible mythology that gives them the right to :

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

And Christians, because it has to do with their magic book, just fall for it ... thinking if Israel takes all the land and rebuilds the temple they'll get their precious Jesus back, no matter the cost of the neighbors they are suppose to be loving.

Don't tell me we aren't mythologically determined, even today. That's a joke.
There's some serious anti-semitism here clouding your views. Let me get this straight:
Israel kills Palestinian children with bulldozers based on a verse in Deuteronomy.

Christians are all deluded by mythology based on their "magic book."

The fake Jews in Israel have no right to the "promised land."
Did I miss something?
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Old 01-26-2017, 07:56 PM   #1137
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Name:	Screen Shot 2017-01-26 at 9.50.55 PM.jpg
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ID:	182.....What kind of God would allow this to happen?
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Old 01-26-2017, 08:04 PM   #1138
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Attachment 182.....What kind of God would allow this to happen?
That's the Problem of Evil! Double Cheeseburgers!
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Old 01-26-2017, 08:48 PM   #1139
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Judaic views of the Amalekites
In Judaism, the Amalekites came to represent the archetypal enemy of the Jews. In Jewish folklore the Amalekites are considered to be the symbol of evil. This concept has been used by some hassidic rabbis (particularly the Baal Shem Tov) to represent atheism or the rejection of God. Nur Masalha, Elliot Horowitz and Josef Stern suggest that Amalekites have come to represent an "eternally irreconcilable enemy" that wants to murder Jews, and that Jews in post-biblical times sometimes associate contemporary enemies with Haman or Amalekites, and that some Jews believe that pre-emptive violence is acceptable against such enemies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek
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Old 01-27-2017, 05:49 AM   #1140
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Well, perhaps sending them phosphorous weapons is cursing them.
Well that's penetrating. Thanks for that. But it depends. As a Christian indiscriminate killing, such as phosphorous bombs inflict (they are illegal btw) is wrong because it goes against following Jesus. But as a Jew, following the Torah, when taking the Promised Land, they are obeying God. However, the Torah also teaches fairness and care for others, and God could be angry at them for the way they are treating the Palestinians, and so will actively curse them, like He's done so many times in the Old, and even New, Testament.

I guess we don't know. But should be careful. We don't know what God is feeling. But blind support of Israel may not match what's in the heart of God. God may be true to Gen. 12:3 when it comes to Abraham and his kids, but He clearly has not been true to it when it comes to Israel. And there's no legitimate reason to think that Gen. 12:3 applies to the state of Israel today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
Don't you think that making peace with the Palestinians would bless Israel?
Yes.

Quote:
How many times do you guys fall for this stuff. The Bible says to bless Israel so regardless of what we do they will sell it as "blessing Israel" and wrap themselves in God's word. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

This is why I say we should be obedient to what the Bible says. For someone who has argued that there is no reference to bacteria in the Bible despite all of the very obvious references, where exactly does the Bible say that giving phosphorous bombs is equivalent to "blessing someone"?
Literally laughing out loud. Good one bro. You're a funny wack-a-noodle.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:07 AM   #1141
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Well that's penetrating. Thanks for that. But it depends. As a Christian indiscriminate killing, such as phosphorous bombs inflict (they are illegal btw) is wrong because it goes against following Jesus. But as a Jew, following the Torah, when taking the Promised Land, they are obeying God. However, the Torah also teaches fairness and care for others, and God could be angry at them for the way they are treating the Palestinians, and so will actively curse them, like He's done so many times in the Old, and even New, Testament.

I guess we don't know. But should be careful. We don't know what God is feeling. But blind support of Israel may not match what's in the heart of God. God may be true to Gen. 12:3 when it comes to Abraham and his kids, but He clearly has not been true to it when it comes to Israel. And there's no legitimate reason to think that Gen. 12:3 applies to the state of Israel today.
4 “Do not think in your heart, after the Lord your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the Lord has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is driving them out from before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Therefore understand that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people.

There is a misperception that Israel is righteous, but that is not true. What is true is that these nations practiced infanticide and abortion (sacrifices to Moloch and Baal, babies were sacrificed for the sake of fornication and careers). But today Israel's laws concerning abortion are as liberal as virtually any nation.

Regardless of what the argument in favor of it is, it is a human sacrifice, something that we associate with Pagan worship.
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:25 AM   #1142
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But today Israel's laws concerning abortion are as liberal as virtually any nation.

Regardless of what the argument in favor of it is, it is a human sacrifice, something that we associate with Pagan worship.
This just can't be true. Bro Ohio has expressed extreme negative views on abortion. But he clearly supports Israel. So Israel can't be liberal towards abortion.
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Old 01-27-2017, 08:29 AM   #1143
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This just can't be true. Bro Ohio has expressed extreme negative views on abortion. But he clearly supports Israel. So Israel can't be liberal towards abortion.
This just can't be true.

Bro awareness loves children and says phosphorus weaponry is evil, but he still lives in America (perhaps kentucky has left the Union?) which murders the unborn and used phosphorus on the Iraqis.

He also supported Obama who preferred to blow people up with drones rather than extract valuable life-saving information by getting these folks a little wet. Maybe there is a Trudeau in his future?
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Old 01-27-2017, 07:00 PM   #1144
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Literally laughing out loud. Good one bro. You're a funny wack-a-noodle.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
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Old 01-28-2017, 07:03 AM   #1145
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This just can't be true.

Bro awareness loves children and says phosphorus weaponry is evil, but he still lives in America (perhaps kentucky has left the Union?) which murders the unborn and used phosphorus on the Iraqis.

He also supported Obama who preferred to blow people up with drones rather than extract valuable life-saving information by getting these folks a little wet. Maybe there is a Trudeau in his future?
This must be the alternative facts I've been hearing about.
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Old 01-29-2017, 05:45 AM   #1146
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As we are seeing, another example of evil instigated by Trump, is Syrian Christian families turned away at airports because of Trump's travel bans. Trump's policy is causing untold suffering on families, regardless of their religion, and will do little to stop terrorist attacks in America. This is therefore an example of unnecessary evil caused by the idiocy of one man.

The countries targeted include:

Iran
Iraq
Syria
Sudan
Libya
Yemen
Somalia

The problem is this will do little to stop terrorist attacks in America as this article explains: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...xecutive-order

Furthermore Trump chose the wrong countries to ban. The majority of 9/11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt, Lebanon. Other countries where terrorism thrives is Nigeria, Pakistan, Turkey and Afghanistan.

Strangely there are not bans on people from these countries. We can see from the global terrorism index that he is missing Afghanistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, which are higher on the list than Syria.

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/t...t-attacks.html
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Old 01-29-2017, 07:14 AM   #1147
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As we are seeing, another example of evil instigated by Trump, is Syrian Christian families turned away at airports because of Trump's travel bans. Trump's policy is causing untold suffering on families, regardless of their religion, and will do little to stop terrorist attacks in America. This is therefore an example of unnecessary evil caused by the idiocy of one man.

The countries targeted include:

Iran
Iraq
Syria
Sudan
Libya
Yemen
Somalia

The problem is this will do little to stop terrorist attacks in America as this article explains: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...xecutive-order

Furthermore Trump chose the wrong countries to ban. The majority of 9/11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt, Lebanon. Other countries where terrorism thrives is Nigeria, Pakistan, Turkey and Afghanistan.

Strangely there are not bans on people from these countries. We can see from the global terrorism index that he is missing Afghanistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, which are higher on the list than Syria.

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/t...t-attacks.html
Do you have anything good to say about America, other than you can buy an expensive cemetery plot next to Witness Lee?

You already called America "Sodom," so perhaps Trump is only protecting these folks from all the evils here.

Trump was elected to secure the borders, and that is what he is doing. That is what the majority of Americans want.

"Untold suffering?" That's what happens when porous borders allow terrorists to kill and destroy our citizens.

Perhaps you are from California? I am beginning to think that a CalExit might be a good idea.
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Old 01-29-2017, 04:38 PM   #1148
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post

The countries targeted include:

Iran
Iraq
Syria
Sudan
Libya
Yemen
Somalia

The problem is this will do little to stop terrorist attacks in America as this article explains: http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...xecutive-order

Furthermore Trump chose the wrong countries to ban. The majority of 9/11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Egypt, Lebanon. Other countries where terrorism thrives is Nigeria, Pakistan, Turkey and Afghanistan.

Strangely there are not bans on people from these countries. We can see from the global terrorism index that he is missing Afghanistan, Nigeria, Pakistan, which are higher on the list than Syria.

http://www.worldatlas.com/articles/t...t-attacks.html
This ban is not about terrorism, it is about climate refugees.

Iran - Environmental catastrophe in the Ahwaz region (what we used to call the fertile crescent) http://www.countercurrents.org/2016/...-ahwaz-region/
Iraq’s environmental catastrophe worse than Hiroshima https://www.rt.com/op-edge/iraq-envi...hiroshima-533/
Syria’s uprising a result of Climate change https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-drought-study
Sudan — Conflict due to desertification http://postconflict.unep.ch/publicat..._disasters.pdf
Libya — Man made environmental catastrophe http://www.alternet.org/media/libya-...d-its-invasion
Yemen — Water crisis at catastrophic levels https://www.american.edu/cas/economi..._1-1_glass.pdf
Somalia — Severe drought http://www.somalilandpress.com/somal...e-catastrophe/

Don't tell me Trump doesn't believe in Climate change, actions speak louder than words.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:08 PM   #1149
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This ban is not about terrorism, it is about climate refugees.

Iran - Environmental catastrophe in the Ahwaz region (what we used to call the fertile crescent) http://www.countercurrents.org/2016/...-ahwaz-region/
Iraq’s environmental catastrophe worse than Hiroshima https://www.rt.com/op-edge/iraq-envi...hiroshima-533/
Syria’s uprising a result of Climate change https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-drought-study
Sudan — Conflict due to desertification http://postconflict.unep.ch/publicat..._disasters.pdf
Libya — Man made environmental catastrophe http://www.alternet.org/media/libya-...d-its-invasion
Yemen — Water crisis at catastrophic levels https://www.american.edu/cas/economi..._1-1_glass.pdf
Somalia — Severe drought http://www.somalilandpress.com/somal...e-catastrophe/

Don't tell me Trump doesn't believe in Climate change, actions speak louder than words.
Well, that explains everything.

Trump surrogates today unveiled that those 7 countries were specifically identified as terroristic threats by the Obama administration.

And we know that Barak Obama was a High Priest in the Worldwide Church of Climate Change.
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Old 01-29-2017, 08:14 PM   #1150
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Well, that explains everything.

Trump surrogates today unveiled that those 7 countries were specifically identified as terroristic threats by the Obama administration.

And we know that Barak Who's sane Obama was a High Priest in the Worldwide Church of Climate Change.
Terrorism is the excuse. This is made very clear if you read about Snowden. One revelation to him was that we collected twice as much data (emails, texts, phone calls) on Americans than on Russians.

It was very clear to him from his discussions with his bosses including the deputy director of the CIA that terrorism was merely an excuse.

Also the reason he went public was because of Obama. During the campaign Obama pledged to clean this up, instead things became much more intrusive. When he saw that he felt he had to go public.

Kind of reminds me of this extremely obscure preacher I knew who used "rebellions" as an excuse to do periodic purges of those who knew the truth.

In this case the truth is there is a gold mine, black gold, under the Arctic, just so long as we wall off the rest of the world suffering cataclysmic results of that black gold.
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Old 01-29-2017, 10:17 PM   #1151
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Terrorism is the excuse. This is made very clear if you read about Snowden. One revelation to him was that we collected twice as much data (emails, texts, phone calls) on Americans than on Russians.

It was very clear to him from his discussions with his bosses including the deputy director of the CIA that terrorism was merely an excuse.

Also the reason he went public was because of Obama. During the campaign Obama pledged to clean this up, instead things became much more intrusive. When he saw that he felt he had to go public.
I saw the movie Snowden. Brilliant guy.

Snowden was a patriot. Whistleblowers like him are true heroes.

They are doing the job the press should have done.

Climate change, like terrorism, is merely the excuse to push liberal intrusive agendas at us.
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:36 AM   #1152
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Do you have anything good to say about America, other than you can buy an expensive cemetery plot next to Witness Lee?

You already called America "Sodom," so perhaps Trump is only protecting these folks from all the evils here.

Trump was elected to secure the borders, and that is what he is doing. That is what the majority of Americans want.

"Untold suffering?" That's what happens when porous borders allow terrorists to kill and destroy our citizens.

Perhaps you are from California? I am beginning to think that a CalExit might be a good idea.

This chart and figures might help put things in perspective:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/03/us...-gun-violence/

The fear of terrorists and immigration is irrational:
https://www.cato.org/publications/co...s-overinflated

The facts are a person is in much more danger from getting shot by an idiot with a gun than by a Syrian refugee family who has waited months to get visa approval and gone through all the necessary checks and balances. Although treating them this way might make them change their mind.

America is avoiding its global responsibility in accepting these refugees. America has a responsibility to these people given that they played a big part in causing the chaos in the first place.
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Old 01-30-2017, 01:41 AM   #1153
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I saw the movie Snowden. Brilliant guy.

Snowden was a patriot. Whistleblowers like him are true heroes.

They are doing the job the press should have done.

Climate change, like terrorism, is merely the excuse to push liberal intrusive agendas at us.
Snowden is a traitor, plain and simple. Did his leaks accomplish anything? No, not really. People are quite happy having their lives monitored - those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear.
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:48 AM   #1154
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Snowden is a traitor, plain and simple. Did his leaks accomplish anything? No, not really. People are quite happy having their lives monitored - those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear.
I wonder why Ben Franklin said, "those who trade liberty for security, deserve neither."

Snowden acted according to conscience. His leaks exposed extensive government corruption. People are not happy with surveilance.

A healthy government fears its people, not the other way around. During the last century, over 150 million people died at the hands of their own government.

Obviously normal law-abiding citizens have much to fear from abusive governments.

I thought you might be a Christian? Have you never read how many genuine evangelical Christians have been tortured and killed for their faith at the hands of their leaders?
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:52 AM   #1155
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This chart and figures might help put things in perspective:
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/10/03/us...-gun-violence/

The fear of terrorists and immigration is irrational:
https://www.cato.org/publications/co...s-overinflated

The facts are a person is in much more danger from getting shot by an idiot with a gun than by a Syrian refugee family who has waited months to get visa approval and gone through all the necessary checks and balances. Although treating them this way might make them change their mind.

America is avoiding its global responsibility in accepting these refugees. America has a responsibility to these people given that they played a big part in causing the chaos in the first place.
America has no global responsibility to accept any refugees.
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:58 AM   #1156
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I saw the movie Snowden. Brilliant guy.

Snowden was a patriot. Whistleblowers like him are true heroes.

They are doing the job the press should have done.

Climate change, like terrorism, is merely the excuse to push liberal intrusive agendas at us.
You see the green's as "watermelons" (green on the outside and red on the inside).

I view these changes as inevitable. The power to collect and analyze all the data is there, just like Pandora's box, it has been released and can no longer be taken away. Likewise, the advantages of having modern technology far outweigh the disadvantages.

I view us as "stewards" of the land. The environmental catastrophes that have been man made are not "good stewardship". Our foreign policy which was not pushed by green's like Al Gore but rather by Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes has not created a more peaceful world.

In that sense I think the best foreign policy is one that makes peace. Smashing your "enemy" back to the Stone age has not made the world safer, but rather more terrifying.

I think we should go into these countries that Trump has declared to be outcasts and give them a peace offering that would make peace.
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:03 AM   #1157
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Snowden is a traitor, plain and simple. Did his leaks accomplish anything? No, not really. People are quite happy having their lives monitored - those with nothing to hide have nothing to fear.
Really? Nothing to fear? The movie tells a story of a Banker who should have had nothing to fear. But the CIA needed to "turn" someone, make an insider into their spy. So they saw that his teenage daughter had a boyfriend. They revoked the boyfriend's visa, having him deported. This in turn caused the girl to try and commit suicide with sleeping pills. They then took the banker out, promised to help get the boyfriend back, got him drunk, put him in his car and then called the police on him for DUI. Once again, he now needs them to help him not go to jail. They destroyed this man's life to make him their "female dog". How? Simply by the ability to figure out where the pressure points were in his life and push them.
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Old 01-30-2017, 06:11 AM   #1158
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America has no global responsibility to accept any refugees.
If the world were a family then the US should be viewed as one of the key elders of this family.

If we want to be a "light set on a hill" then we will help these nations.

If they are "climate refugees" as a result of climate change then we, along with all others who have been changing the climate, bear some responsibility.

A tribe of chimps does not bear responsibility for the survival of another tribe of chimps, but we are not chimps. We are men. Our tremendous success over chimps is due to our being eusocial. If we stop being eusocial we will stop being men.

That does not mean that accepting refugees is the solution. Most refugees would rather stay in their country. I view these countries as the canary in the coal mine. What is killing them will be killing us soon. https://www.yahoo.com/news/storms-pr...050419759.html

Therefore if we can solve the problem while it is still in Yemen and Syria we will be very thankful for that solution when it moves to the US.
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Old 01-30-2017, 07:42 AM   #1159
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You see the green's as "watermelons" (green on the outside and red on the inside).

I view these changes as inevitable. The power to collect and analyze all the data is there, just like Pandora's box, it has been released and can no longer be taken away. Likewise, the advantages of having modern technology far outweigh the disadvantages.

I view us as "stewards" of the land. The environmental catastrophes that have been man made are not "good stewardship". Our foreign policy which was not pushed by green's like Al Gore but rather by Nixon, Reagan and the Bushes has not created a more peaceful world.

In that sense I think the best foreign policy is one that makes peace. Smashing your "enemy" back to the Stone age has not made the world safer, but rather more terrifying.

I think we should go into these countries that Trump has declared to be outcasts and give them a peace offering that would make peace.
I see this earth as merely a temporary home for mankind. Its usefullness is short lived. Its resources are not sustainable long term. The global elites have known this for years, and that is why they have plans in place to reduce global populations by billions. They care little for the planet, only themselves. Al Gore is case in point. He is a preacher of tiny carbon footprints, yet his carbon footprint is as big as some whole countries.

I grew up being brainwashed by liberal ideology that mankind's bad behavior was expediting the next ice age. Visualize frozen wooly mammoths. Next was global warming. Now climate change. Wait till the big earthquake hits. Can't blame that on the oil industry.

The world will never know lasting peace until our Lord returns. Only the sovereignty of God has kept us from destroying ourselves, and will continue to do so until He is ready to send His Son to return.
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:25 AM   #1160
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If we want to be a "light set on a hill" then we will help these nations.
The U.S. is not a light set on a hill. Maybe a false beacon designed to lure ships into the rocks.

I am being a little facetious there. But to use the "light set on a hill" terminology is to grant a spiritual status that the nation known as the United States of America does not have nor has it ever had. It does boast a more open and honest means of governing. But despite the inclusiveness of its citizens in government through he vote, they do not truly rule the nation. Nor do the rules truly reflect the ideals that we would call moral and just. Some yes, others no. But not entirely yes, therefore not qualified to be the light on a hill. During almost all parts of its history it has denied some people true participation in the "land of the free." At our best, we all want certain ones to be suppressed. And therefore whoever is in power will be suppressing someone. We suppress the gays, or the bigots, or the Christians, or the Muslims, or the world-domination group, or the isolationists. And the wise people among the middle of all of that know that the suppression of anyone suppresses them.

Yes, our history, dark as some parts may seem to some, has been more positive for more people than all but a few others can boast. But it is still nothing more than a kingdom of the world. Our part (as Christians) is not necessarily to shape the best country that could be. It is to live as lights in this dark and evil age. Yes. Right here in America is still a dark and evil age. No mater who is the president and how moral you think our laws could become. Worrying about making the world right with God's morality without God is just providing a reason for them to think that they don't need God.
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Old 01-30-2017, 08:26 AM   #1161
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I see this earth as merely a temporary home for mankind. Its usefullness is short lived. Its resources are not sustainable long term. The global elites have known this for years, and that is why they have plans in place to reduce global populations by billions. They care little for the planet, only themselves. Al Gore is case in point. He is a preacher of tiny carbon footprints, yet his carbon footprint is as big as some whole countries.

I grew up being brainwashed by liberal ideology that mankind's bad behavior was expediting the next ice age. Visualize frozen wooly mammoths. Next was global warming. Now climate change. Wait till the big earthquake hits. Can't blame that on the oil industry.

The world will never know lasting peace until our Lord returns. Only the sovereignty of God has kept us from destroying ourselves, and will continue to do so until He is ready to send His Son to return.
Amen, amen, and amen.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:25 AM   #1162
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I see this earth as merely a temporary home for mankind. Its usefullness is short lived. Its resources are not sustainable long term. The global elites have known this for years, and that is why they have plans in place to reduce global populations by billions. They care little for the planet, only themselves. Al Gore is case in point. He is a preacher of tiny carbon footprints, yet his carbon footprint is as big as some whole countries.

I grew up being brainwashed by liberal ideology that mankind's bad behavior was expediting the next ice age. Visualize frozen wooly mammoths. Next was global warming. Now climate change. Wait till the big earthquake hits. Can't blame that on the oil industry.

The world will never know lasting peace until our Lord returns. Only the sovereignty of God has kept us from destroying ourselves, and will continue to do so until He is ready to send His Son to return.
And Donald Trump is doing God's will by hastening the day of Armageddon! This irresponsible way of looking at the world is why apocalypticism is so dangerous.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:42 AM   #1163
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I see this earth as merely a temporary home for mankind. Its usefullness is short lived. Its resources are not sustainable long term. The global elites have known this for years, and that is why they have plans in place to reduce global populations by billions. They care little for the planet, only themselves. Al Gore is case in point. He is a preacher of tiny carbon footprints, yet his carbon footprint is as big as some whole countries.

I grew up being brainwashed by liberal ideology that mankind's bad behavior was expediting the next ice age. Visualize frozen wooly mammoths. Next was global warming. Now climate change. Wait till the big earthquake hits. Can't blame that on the oil industry.

The world will never know lasting peace until our Lord returns. Only the sovereignty of God has kept us from destroying ourselves, and will continue to do so until He is ready to send His Son to return.
I view this world as a training ground for God's children to learn how to exercise dominion. Being a good steward is part of God's original commission to Adam. Creation is currently groaning about this.

Unfortunately the oil industry is responsible for earthquakes, at least where they do fracking.

Even though these things won't be resolved until the Lord returns, and even though the 1,000 years is also called "the restoration of all things" I still feel it is our responsibility to be good stewards.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:45 AM   #1164
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The U.S. is not a light set on a hill. Maybe a false beacon designed to lure ships into the rocks.

I am being a little facetious there. But to use the "light set on a hill" terminology is to grant a spiritual status that the nation known as the United States of America does not have nor has it ever had. It does boast a more open and honest means of governing. But despite the inclusiveness of its citizens in government through he vote, they do not truly rule the nation. Nor do the rules truly reflect the ideals that we would call moral and just. Some yes, others no. But not entirely yes, therefore not qualified to be the light on a hill. During almost all parts of its history it has denied some people true participation in the "land of the free." At our best, we all want certain ones to be suppressed. And therefore whoever is in power will be suppressing someone. We suppress the gays, or the bigots, or the Christians, or the Muslims, or the world-domination group, or the isolationists. And the wise people among the middle of all of that know that the suppression of anyone suppresses them.

Yes, our history, dark as some parts may seem to some, has been more positive for more people than all but a few others can boast. But it is still nothing more than a kingdom of the world. Our part (as Christians) is not necessarily to shape the best country that could be. It is to live as lights in this dark and evil age. Yes. Right here in America is still a dark and evil age. No mater who is the president and how moral you think our laws could become. Worrying about making the world right with God's morality without God is just providing a reason for them to think that they don't need God.
There is nothing wrong with aspiring to something higher. Many people have considered the US to be a positive example to other countries.

"Worrying about making the world right with God's morality" is what Eleanor Roosevelt did in writing the universal declaration of human rights. This action was seen to essential after WWII.
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Old 01-30-2017, 10:48 AM   #1165
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And Donald Trump is doing God's will by hastening the day of Armageddon! This irresponsible way of looking at the world is why apocalypticism is so dangerous.
Or maybe just hastening the day of his impeachment.

The bottom line is that "more of the same" is not a solution. It is easy to say he is wrong, but then you should tell us what right is.

Please explain how we, in the US, can bring peace to this troubled region?

Can't do that?

Then at the very least explain how the US Government can protect its citizens from the chaos of these regions?

Oops, can't even do that?

The only thing you can do is to cast aspersion. Give us the solution and then you will have the credibility to cast aspersion.
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Old 01-30-2017, 12:34 PM   #1166
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There is nothing wrong with aspiring to something higher.
I do not argue against aspiring for better. But once you start wrapping it in the cloak of religion — even indirectly through the rhetoric used — it becomes a call to those who see unity of church and state as a good thing (for both state and religion). It is a misdirection for us from our call to bear God's image.

But history shows that the joining of church and state is not a good thing. It compromises the church while giving the state a false sense of purity and superiority.

In any case, for the purpose of our life a Christians, it is clearly better if we have our aspirations related to our higher kingdom and let the earthly kingdom be what it will be. Not saying to just ignore the earthly government. But it should not be an important part of our focus. It is, at its best, the world.
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Old 01-30-2017, 02:23 PM   #1167
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I do not argue against aspiring for better. But once you start wrapping it in the cloak of religion — even indirectly through the rhetoric used — it becomes a call to those who see unity of church and state as a good thing (for both state and religion). It is a misdirection for us from our call to bear God's image.

But history shows that the joining of church and state is not a good thing. It compromises the church while giving the state a false sense of purity and superiority.

In any case, for the purpose of our life a Christians, it is clearly better if we have our aspirations related to our higher kingdom and let the earthly kingdom be what it will be. Not saying to just ignore the earthly government. But it should not be an important part of our focus. It is, at its best, the world.
I have a different view on what History shows us.

Does history show that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light? yes.

But does history also show that you cannot separate the "rule of law" from "moral law"? Yes. This is what the Nuremberg trial concluded.

In the end our foreign policy must include diplomacy and making peace. The solution is to make peace. Bombs, and drones are not the solution, if they were the last 8 years would have seen a dramatic improvement in foreign relations, it hasn't.

If you are not saying to ignore our earthly responsibilities as citizens then I can not understand what you are saying.
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Old 01-30-2017, 03:30 PM   #1168
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I wonder why Ben Franklin said, "those who trade liberty for security, deserve neither."

Snowden acted according to conscience. His leaks exposed extensive government corruption. People are not happy with surveilance.

A healthy government fears its people, not the other way around. During the last century, over 150 million people died at the hands of their own government.

Obviously normal law-abiding citizens have much to fear from abusive governments.

I thought you might be a Christian? Have you never read how many genuine evangelical Christians have been tortured and killed for their faith at the hands of their leaders?
People that break the law to act according to conscience are called vigilantes. Whether it is a murderer, or a thief, or a traitor, vigilantism is to be condemned. Nothing about why Snowden did it makes it right. He still should be prosecuted for what he did against the laws of the US. Law-abiding citizens obey the laws of their country. Snowden didn't and you seem to be advocating that it is okay to break the law. You cannot say that is being "normal law-abiding citizen". Sympathizing with vigilantism is outside of the law. Anyway the leak accomplished nothing. Is not America still being monitored today by its own government? Is Trump going to stop doing that? Of course he won't.
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Old 01-30-2017, 03:39 PM   #1169
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America has no global responsibility to accept any refugees.
The English Prime Minister would disagree. Are you really so stupid to think that America should expect other countries to clean up the consequences of their actions? I thought you might be a Christian and know something about receiving foreigners, orphans and widows as the Bible says to do.
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Old 01-30-2017, 03:49 PM   #1170
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Really? Nothing to fear? The movie tells a story of a Banker who should have had nothing to fear. But the CIA needed to "turn" someone, make an insider into their spy. So they saw that his teenage daughter had a boyfriend. They revoked the boyfriend's visa, having him deported. This in turn caused the girl to try and commit suicide with sleeping pills. They then took the banker out, promised to help get the boyfriend back, got him drunk, put him in his car and then called the police on him for DUI. Once again, he now needs them to help him not go to jail. They destroyed this man's life to make him their "female dog". How? Simply by the ability to figure out where the pressure points were in his life and push them.
Movies are not reality. If Snowden had acted in the interest of another country he would be called a traitor. If Snowden acted on the basis of conscience, that makes him a vigilante. Neither traitor nor vigilante makes it right.
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:04 PM   #1171
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Movies are not reality. If Snowden had acted in the interest of another country he would be called a traitor. If Snowden acted on the basis of conscience, that makes him a vigilante. Neither traitor nor vigilante makes it right.
Which completely ignores my post. The point is that if the Government wants to turn you into a spy they can do it by hook and crook.

You can argue that the banker should have been smart enough to avoid the pitfalls, perhaps. But what about his teenage daughter? What about the boyfriend who has no idea what her father is involved in.

You said if you have nothing to hide you don't need to worry, but the story proves if you have something of value you need to worry.
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:09 PM   #1172
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The English Prime Minister would disagree. Are you really so stupid to think that America should expect other countries to clean up the consequences of their actions? I thought you might be a Christian and know something about receiving foreigners, orphans and widows as the Bible says to do.
The consequence of their actions?

I expect the US to be responsible for the consequence of our actions. Climate change in part is a consequence of our actions, surely more than they are of Yemen or Syria. Saying that the ecological catastrophe in Iraq was worse than Hiroshima was a direct consequence of the US action of using depleted uranium as a weapon.

Iran's ecological disaster was a direct result of oil exploration and drilling. If we bought that oil we are partners in that destruction. Even if we didn't we are clearly responsible for quite a lot of ecologic disaster from oil exploration.
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:33 PM   #1173
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The consequence of their actions?

I expect the US to be responsible for the consequence of our actions. Climate change in part is a consequence of our actions, surely more than they are of Yemen or Syria. Saying that the ecological catastrophe in Iraq was worse than Hiroshima was a direct consequence of the US action of using depleted uranium as a weapon.

Iran's ecological disaster was a direct result of oil exploration and drilling. If we bought that oil we are partners in that destruction. Even if we didn't we are clearly responsible for quite a lot of ecologic disaster from oil exploration.
Right, my point is everyone is responsible and particularly the US and its allies. All major countries have a part to play and responsibility.
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Old 01-30-2017, 04:45 PM   #1174
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Which completely ignores my post. The point is that if the Government wants to turn you into a spy they can do it by hook and crook.

You can argue that the banker should have been smart enough to avoid the pitfalls, perhaps. But what about his teenage daughter? What about the boyfriend who has no idea what her father is involved in.

You said if you have nothing to hide you don't need to worry, but the story proves if you have something of value you need to worry.
That fear is irrational, to such an extent that only an irrational person would be worried about that happening - or a person that knows they are of value or have something to hide. The chance of it happening to an average citizen is quite small. Put that worry in perspective, compared to say, a family in the neighborhood with an arsenal of weapons and a reclusive teenager with a mental illness. Trump and co. are dumb, not just because he ignores the science, and thinks fast food is healthy and denies climate change, but also because he can't make rational decisions. He cannot put fear into perspective, he cannot say, okay the chance of death by gun in the US is 1000 times greater than the chance of terrorist attack by Syrian woman who has gone through the long and arduous process of obtaining a visa as a refugee, or an Iranian doctor who wishes to use his expertise to benefit Americans. He cannot realize that he has just banned people from Muslim countries that have not conducted terrorist attacks on home soil over the past 40 years, and has failed to impose restrictions on countries that have (Saudi Arabia, Pakistan etc). Now, soon he will pull out of the Paris agreement, and ramp up oil, gas and coal production.
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Old 01-30-2017, 05:23 PM   #1175
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I have a different view on what History shows us.
We can agree to disagree.

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Does history show that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light? yes.
Irrelevant.

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But does history also show that you cannot separate the "rule of law" from "moral law"? Yes. This is what the Nuremberg trial concluded.
I did not suggest that the rule of law can be void of moral law. And even Germany had moral law. Just not at the level that the larger world society considered sufficient to allow them to do what they wanted. But neither was simply God's law. One was closer than the other.

Whether secular law must be brought in line with God's law in the minutia is quite a different question. God's law would oppose LGBT(and whatever more letters they now tack on) lifestyle but in secular society it is not a given that its moral code must agree. There is also a "morality" in allowing individuals there free will in areas we may not agree with. That is not God's morality. But he is fully capable of meting out judgment on those issues as he sees fit. And it might not come in this lifetime. That is not simply our choice to insist upon.

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In the end our foreign policy must include diplomacy and making peace. The solution is to make peace. Bombs, and drones are not the solution, if they were the last 8 years would have seen a dramatic improvement in foreign relations, it hasn't.
Wandering far from God's requirement to love your neighbor as yourself. I can make a moralistic argument that taking land by force and then forcing a religious system upon the inhabitants is something that moral people should not stand for.

But how we respond is not some obvious "foreign policy" edict for this or any other country. I am not near enough to being God to decide between a true "just war" and being hands off. Or somewhere in between. But governments will respond as they feel best to respond.

And before getting to your "ignore your earthly responsibilities" nonsense (which completely misrepresents what I said) I do not suggest that any particular course of action is clearly right or wrong. And I do not say that we should just stay out of it because we are Christians. But the way to take part is to do so in the same way that anyone else does. Make your case for a particular course of action (or inaction). Don't start marching in the streets decrying the need to step up to our God-given rights as the "light on a hill" and "turn the nation back to God." (not saying that you are proposing such a thing — but some do).

The