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Old 08-06-2017, 05:21 PM   #1001
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What about Luke 2:33?

KJV = Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

but:

NET = Luk 2:33 So the child's father and mother were amazed at what was said about him.

Why? The New English Translation is working with the manuscript evidence and earlier MSS has "the child's father." It was changed to remove Joseph as the father.

So there again, Joseph is the biological father of Jesus. All the visitation by an angel to a virgin teenager is just hagiography.
I'm still waiting for the day when ole awareness will become "aware" of one good thing to say about Jesus and the Bible.
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Old 08-06-2017, 06:56 PM   #1002
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Actually I think awareness has immense respect for the Bible and the Jesus of the Bible. He's just not a big fan of those of us who try to interpret the Bible and claim to represent the Jesus of the Bible. And can you blame him after his experience in the Local Church of Witness Lee?

He lives in the Bible belt...and one day the Bible is going to belt him right in the mouth...He'll never know what hit him. It will be like the Saul of Tarsus experience where he get's knocked off his high horse. Until then, he's like Saul of Tarsus...he's just not going to believe us Joe Schmo believers....He needs to hear it from God himself.

Yee hah! I can't believe it... I think I was channeling my inner Countmeworthy!

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Old 08-06-2017, 07:17 PM   #1003
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I'm still waiting for the day when ole awareness will become "aware" of one good thing to say about Jesus and the Bible.
What? I think it IS good that the Bible says Joseph was the biological father of Jesus. Not that I think it's a good thing for an old man to get with a young virgin, but it happened all the time back then. And even today. Have you seen Hugh Hefner's wife these days?

Besides, this is not a new notion, that Joseph fathered Jesus. It's not only the most plausible explanation of how Mary (with no last name) got pregnant, it was believed by some very early Jewish Christians from back in that day. They're called Ebionites. They were adoptionists, that believed, that Jesus was born like everyone else -- not of a virgin -- and was adopted by God at his Baptism.

Your good ol' buddy Professor Bart Ehrman, in his book, "Misquoting Jesus" says they, or their heresy, was the reason Luke 2:33 was changed. Isn't it good to get closer to the autograph copies of the books of the NT?

Hey, at least we're talking Bible here. Isn't that good? I thought that was good. My bad.
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Old 08-06-2017, 07:35 PM   #1004
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He lives in the Bible belt...and one day the Bible is going to belt him right in the mouth...
Why thanks for coming to my aid bro Untohim. I need all the aid I can get.

You are right. I live in the buckle of the Bible belt. And my mouth has gotten me into trouble plenty of times. Moreover, these country hillbilly Christians won't hesitate to drop their Christianity just long enough to kick your ass. So I could get clobbered in the mouth with a Bible any day now. That's a real possibility. I've seen it in some preachers eyes hereabouts.

But I like that you point out that I have to hear it straight from God. That strums the strings of my heart. Isn't that the gospel, according to some great Christian thinkers, that is? That salvation is by the grace of God coming to the undeserved. I certainly qualify as an undeserved. Ask bro Ohio.

Thanks again CMW, er ah, I mean Untohim.
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Old 08-06-2017, 08:41 PM   #1005
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He lives in the Bible belt...and one day the Bible is going to belt him right in the mouth...He'll never know what hit him.
LOL seriously
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Old 08-06-2017, 09:40 PM   #1006
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Why thanks for coming to my aid bro Untohim. I need all the aid I can get.

You are right. I live in the buckle of the Bible belt. And my mouth has gotten me into trouble plenty of times. Moreover, these country hillbilly Christians won't hesitate to drop their Christianity just long enough to kick your ass. So I could get clobbered in the mouth with a Bible any day now. That's a real possibility. I've seen it in some preachers eyes hereabouts.

But I like that you point out that I have to hear it straight from God. That strums the strings of my heart. Isn't that the gospel, according to some great Christian thinkers, that is? That salvation is by the grace of God coming to the undeserved. I certainly qualify as an undeserved. Ask bro Ohio.

Thanks again CMW, er ah, I mean Untohim.
I wouldn't know anything about that. I thought salvation was by faith in Jesus Christ.
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:36 AM   #1007
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I wouldn't know anything about that. I thought salvation was by faith in Jesus Christ.
Grace has nothing to do with it?
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Old 08-07-2017, 05:51 AM   #1008
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Grace has nothing to do with it?
What about all these "undeserving" folks who refuse to believe?
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:20 AM   #1009
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Seriously? If you are adopted you can refer to your adopted father as your father. A step father is a father. Even orphans like Mike Tyson can have "father figures". Just because Joseph wasn't Jesus biologic father doesn't mean he wasn't his earthly father. From the time of birth Jesus grew up in a family in which Mary was His mother and Joseph was His father. Just ask Zeek, there is no scientific evidence provided whatsoever that Joseph was the biologic father in the NT, however there is very clear statement of fact that Jesus was born of a virgin and that God was the Father.
In the canonical gospels, Jesus repudiates his mother in Matthew 12. He advises his followers to do the same to their parents. He never acknowledges any kind of relationship with Joseph. Common sense recognizes the conflicting virgin conception stories are work of hagiographers apparently to cover the story that Jesus was an illegitimate child which would make Mary a whore in the eyes of traditionally minded people, a problem that Joseph is said to have been concerned about in Matthew 1:19.
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:24 AM   #1010
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In the canonical gospels, Jesus repudiates his mother in Matthew 12. He advises his followers to do the same to their parents. He never acknowledges any kind of relationship with Joseph. Common sense recognizes the conflicting virgin conception stories are work of hagiographers apparently to cover the story that Jesus was an illegitimate child which would make Mary a whore in the eyes of traditionally minded people, a problem that Joseph is said to have been concerned about in Matthew 1:19.
This makes Hillary's "vast right wing conspiracy" look kindergarden by comparison. Just need a heavy dose of zeek's "common sense."
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:06 AM   #1011
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This makes Hillary's "vast right wing conspiracy" look kindergarden by comparison. Just need a heavy dose of zeek's "common sense."
Jesus understood what it was to be a social pariah because as a "bastard" the people treated him as one himself. As a boy who never knew his real father he must have experienced the hunger for acceptance by a strong male figure that is common among boys in the absence of a Father figure. That acceptance came to him when he was baptized by John. "And there came a voice from Heaven, saying, “Thou Art My Beloved Son, In Whom I Am Well Pleased.” Is it any wonder that the power of acceptance in a father-son relationship with God was the foundational experience of Jesus' faith and teaching.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:32 AM   #1012
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The canonical gospels downplay the probable fact that before John's death, Jesus was his disciple. The fact that John baptized Jesus was a source of embarrassment because it implies that Jesus recognized John's spiritual superiority at that stage of his life, and that Jesus needed to repent. Nevertheless, in John Jesus seems to have found the strong male father figure that he needed to overcome the absence of a father when he was growing up.
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Old 08-07-2017, 08:44 AM   #1013
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This makes Hillary's "vast right wing conspiracy" look kindergarden by comparison. Just need a heavy dose of zeek's "common sense."
What does Hillary have to do with Mary, Joseph, and Jesus?
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:00 AM   #1014
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What does Hillary have to do with Mary, Joseph, and Jesus?
Most historians recognize that the Gospel of Mark was the earliest written of the gospels and the one with the most historical facts. There is no mention of Joseph in Mark. The "Joseph" story may have been part of a later tradition.
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:43 AM   #1015
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Jesus understood what it was to be a social pariah because as a "bastard" the people treated him as one himself. As a boy who never knew his real father he must have experienced the hunger for acceptance by a strong male figure that is common among boys in the absence of a Father figure.
Of course Jesus knew His real father. He told us clearly at age twelve.

Your speculation of Jesus as a social pariah is based on what? The Jews called Him the son of Joseph.

If the Jews knew the story of His birth, then they would not have said He was born in Galilee, and would have known He came out of the seed of David, born in Bethlehem.
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Old 08-07-2017, 09:46 AM   #1016
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The canonical gospels downplay the probable fact that before John's death, Jesus was his disciple. The fact that John baptized Jesus was a source of embarrassment because it implies that Jesus recognized John's spiritual superiority at that stage of his life, and that Jesus needed to repent. Nevertheless, in John Jesus seems to have found the strong male father figure that he needed to overcome the absence of a father when he was growing up.
Another twisting of scripture from an unlearned and unstable poster. (II Peter 3.17)
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:26 AM   #1017
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The canonical gospels downplay the probable fact that before John's death, Jesus was his disciple. The fact that John baptized Jesus was a source of embarrassment because it implies that Jesus recognized John's spiritual superiority at that stage of his life, and that Jesus needed to repent. Nevertheless, in John Jesus seems to have found the strong male father figure that he needed to overcome the absence of a father when he was growing up.
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Another twisting of scripture from an unlearned and unstable poster. (II Peter 3.17)
Now, now bro Ohio. Just because brother zeek gets your knickers in a knot doesn't mean you have to speak from that region.

Bro zeek seems to be arguing from a psychological perspective. He has made his living as a shrink all his life, so that's easily understandable.

But his approach that Jesus was missing a strong father figure can be refuted using Luke 2. I already pointed out Luke 2:33, where "father" was later replaced with Joseph. But either way Luke 2 points to Joseph being around until Jesus was at least 12 yrs old.

Joseph does seem to disappear from the accounts. He's not present when Jesus rebukes his mother. But he does reappear in the last gospel written, in John 1:43 where it says "Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

I would hope. bro Ohio, that we could tamp down the ad hominem's, and deal with the claims of our opponents, and not the opponents personally.

And by the way, your whole attack on bro zeek is too absurd to be taken seriously.

But back to my pet peeve. We know about the bronze age. We know about the iron age. But few know about the age of no last names.

In the age of no last name people used "so and so of, this or that." So according to John 1:43, Jesus' last name was "of Nazareth." Why of Nazareth? Why not of Bethlehem? That's where he was actually from. I posit it's because he took the last name of Joseph = Joseph "of Nazareth"

Am I twisting scripture here?

But I see a Recovery of sorts right here on LCD. We're recovering back to the age of no last names. I don't see any last names out here. We have, for example, Ohio of Ohio. Yea for recovering to back in the early days in some fashion or another.

Let's lighten up bro Ohio .... Pleeeeaaaasssseeee???
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Old 08-07-2017, 11:43 AM   #1018
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Now, now bro Ohio. Just because brother zeek gets your knickers in a knot doesn't mean you have to speak from that region.

Bro zeek seems to be arguing from a psychological perspective. He has made his living as a shrink all his life, so that's easily understandable.

But his approach that Jesus was missing a strong father figure can be refuted using Luke 2. I already pointed out Luke 2:33, where "father" was later replaced with Joseph. But either way Luke 2 points to Joseph being around until Jesus was at least 12 yrs old.

Joseph does seem to disappear from the accounts. He's not present when Jesus rebukes his mother. But he does reappear in the last gospel written, in John 1:43 where it says "Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

I would hope. bro Ohio, that we could tamp down the ad hominem's, and deal with the claims of our opponents, and not the opponents personally.

And by the way, your whole attack on bro zeek is too absurd to be taken seriously.

But back to my pet peeve. We know about the bronze age. We know about the iron age. But few know about the age of no last names.

In the age of no last name people used "so and so of, this or that." So according to John 1:43, Jesus' last name was "of Nazareth." Why of Nazareth? Why not of Bethlehem? That's where he was actually from. I posit it's because he took the last name of Joseph = Joseph "of Nazareth"

Am I twisting scripture here?

But I see a Recovery of sorts right here on LCD. We're recovering back to the age of no last names. I don't see any last names out here. We have, for example, Ohio of Ohio. Yea for recovering to back in the early days in some fashion or another.

Let's lighten up bro Ohio .... Pleeeeaaaasssseeee???
It was a twisting of scripture, and zeek does that regularly. This must have happened to Peter also, and that's why he correctly identified these scripture twisters. And btw they are not like four letter words or ad hominems, but simple scriptural descriptions. I think zeek would be honored to know that Peter was thinking of him when he wrote his epistle.

And, btw, last names were not needed until there were just too many first names running around confusing people. Today, we need three or four names to identify people.

And thanks for explaining why zeek is the way he is.

There is no verse that indicates Jesus was missing a "strong father figure." This is pure speculative twisting from an aging shrink. (Your words, not mine.)

And besides, zeek and I get along fine. It's my turn to buy coffee.
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Old 08-07-2017, 02:00 PM   #1019
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It was a twisting of scripture, and zeek does that regularly. This must have happened to Peter also, and that's why he correctly identified these scripture twisters. And btw they are not like four letter words or ad hominems, but simple scriptural descriptions. I think zeek would be honored to know that Peter was thinking of him when he wrote his epistle.

And, btw, last names were not needed until there were just too many first names running around confusing people. Today, we need three or four names to identify people.

And thanks for explaining why zeek is the way he is.

There is no verse that indicates Jesus was missing a "strong father figure." This is pure speculative twisting from an aging shrink. (Your words, not mine.)

And besides, zeek and I get along fine. It's my turn to buy coffee.
Well amen bro Ohio. So you and bro zeek get in the ring so often that a free for all should be allowed? Well this IS AltVs. Should we place our bets?

And bro Ohio you explained the age of no last names in one sentence. Thanks. Way to go. But wasn't there already a first name problem in NT times? I mean, it's hard to keep up with all the Mary's, Jame's, and the like.

And surely, tho lacking scripture references, there were more than one of Jesus of Nazareth's. He could have been spotted in two places across town at the same time. How would anyone know if they saw the real Jesus of Nazareth or not? Did they have internet back then?
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:33 PM   #1020
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Well amen bro Ohio. So you and bro zeek get in the ring so often that a free for all should be allowed? Well this IS AltVs. Should we place our bets?

And bro Ohio you explained the age of no last names in one sentence. Thanks. Way to go. But wasn't there already a first name problem in NT times? I mean, it's hard to keep up with all the Mary's, Jame's, and the like.

And surely, tho lacking scripture references, there were more than one of Jesus of Nazareth's. He could have been spotted in two places across town at the same time. How would anyone know if they saw the real Jesus of Nazareth or not? Did they have internet back then?
I thought you came to AltV's to escape moderation?

But back to your question about surnames. When each Israelite has a genealogy which goes back to David, or Abraham, or Noah, or Adam, how could any of them get mixed up?

But I understand your concern about women. Weren't there like 6 or 7 Mary's in the New Testament?

Anyways, why don't you have a talk with zeek about father figures?
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:41 PM   #1021
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But back to my pet peeve. We know about the bronze age. We know about the iron age. But few know about the age of no last names.

In the age of no last name people used "so and so of, this or that." So according to John 1:43, Jesus' last name was "of Nazareth." Why of Nazareth? Why not of Bethlehem? That's where he was actually from. I posit it's because he took the last name of Joseph = Joseph "of Nazareth"
No, He would not have been called "Jesus of Bethlehem" because He fled to Egypt and was there until those that sought His life died, at which point He returned to live in Nazareth, hence "Jesus of Nazareth".
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Old 08-07-2017, 03:43 PM   #1022
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Anyways, why don't you have a talk with zeek about father figures?
Can we be a little more understanding and sympathetic? Obviously this matter of father figures is a very sensitive issue with Zeek, and Awareness has danced around this indicating the extent of the interaction with psychiatrists to the point that Zeek is now talking like a shrink.
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Old 08-07-2017, 04:51 PM   #1023
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Of course Jesus knew His real father. He told us clearly at age twelve.
The story of finding Jesus in the temple at age 12 is unlikely of historical origin. It's not independently attested in the other gospels. It follows Hellenistic biographical conventions of the hero myth.

Quote:
Your speculation of Jesus as a social pariah is based on what? The Jews called Him the son of Joseph.
I cited textual evidence such as when Jesus was assailed as the "son of Mary." Yours is an instance of a frequent ploy on this forum to ignore what has already been presented when you don't agree with it. Historical evidence about Mediterranean culture at that time supports my hypothesis:

Quote:
"In the peasant society of Jesus' world the family revolved around the
father. The father and the mother were the source of the family, not only
in the biological sense, but because their interaction with their children
created the structures of society. In first-century Mediterranean culture,
fatherlessness led to marginalization. Seen against the background of
the patriarchal mind set of Israelites in the Second Temple period, a
fatherless son would have been without social identity. He would have
been debarred from being called child of Abraham (that is child of God)
and from the privilege of being given a daughter in marriage. He would
be denied access to the court of the Israelites in the Temple." http://www.hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/...File/1526/2819

Quote:
If the Jews knew the story of His birth, then they would not have said He was born in Galilee, and would have known He came out of the seed of David, born in Bethlehem.
The story that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is not historically supported. The accounts in Matthew and Luke conflict irreconcilably. It seems to have been contrived in order to fulfill Micah 5:2.
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Old 08-07-2017, 07:09 PM   #1024
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The story of finding Jesus in the temple is unlikely of historical origin. It is not independently attested in any other written gospel. It follows Hellenistic biographical conventions of the hero myth.
This is America and you are entitled to your screwy opinions based on speculation. Luke the writer got his account from eyewitnesses, i.e. Mary the mother of Jesus.


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I cited textual evidence such as when Jesus was assailed as the "son of Mary." Yours is an instance of a frequent ploy on this forum to ignore what has already been presented when you don't agree with it. Historical evidence about Mediterranean culture at that time supports my hypothesis:
Jesus was referred to as both son of Mary and son of Joseph. Duh!

Anyone can pull nonsense off the internet. It's a common ploy of yours.


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The story that Jesus was born in Bethlehem is not historically supported. The accounts in Matthew and Luke conflict irreconcilably. It seems to have been contrived in order to fulfill Micah 5:2.
And of course you were there to prove His birth?

We have discussed this at length. There are no conflicts in Matthew's and Luke's accounts. Too bad you don't like what the Bible record tells us.

The census by Augustus is historical fact, and the star over Bethlehem is an astronomical fact.
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Old 08-08-2017, 05:19 AM   #1025
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This is America and you are entitled to your screwy opinions based on speculation. Luke the writer got his account from eyewitnesses, i.e. Mary the mother of Jesus.


Jesus was referred to as both son of Mary and son of Joseph. Duh!

Anyone can pull nonsense off the internet. It's a common ploy of yours.


And of course you were there to prove His birth?

We have discussed this at length. There are no conflicts in Matthew's and Luke's accounts. Too bad you don't like what the Bible record tells us.

The census by Augustus is historical fact, and the star over Bethlehem is an astronomical fact.
This just substantiates the Lord's word -- no one knows the Son unless the Father reveals Him.
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:08 AM   #1026
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This is America and you are entitled to your screwy opinions based on speculation. Luke the writer got his account from eyewitnesses, i.e. Mary the mother of Jesus.
The writer of Luke appropriated much of his story verbatim from the Gospel of Mark. You can see that by comparing the texts in parallel. Have you ever done that? Now Mark supposedly got his info from Peter who would have been an eye-witness. In a court of law that would be impermissible because it's hearsay. The author does not actually claim that he personally got his account directly from eyewitnesses.


Quote:
Jesus was referred to as both son of Mary and son of Joseph. Duh!
You're ignoring the implication that calling Jesus "son of Mary" would have in first century Galilee. Furthermore, Joseph is never referred to in Mark which suggests that the author did not know of that story tradition.

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Anyone can pull nonsense off the internet. It's a common ploy of yours.
My method is to present evidence and rational arguments to support my propositions as I have done in this case. Apparently you think your own position is too weak to withstand exposure an opposing thesis, so you dismiss it without reading it or presenting reasonable arguments.

The paper I cited was written by Andries van Aarde. For those who are interested, his theological and hermeneutical work is discussed here http://www.hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/...ew/1033/html#1

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And of course you were there to prove His birth?
That's silly. Of course not. You weren't there either. All we have is the texts and such evidence as our senses provide us plus our fallible human reason to guide our conclusions.

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We have discussed this at length. There are no conflicts in Matthew's and Luke's accounts. Too bad you don't like what the Bible record tells us.
We did discuss it. But, we never arrived at a consensus. I don't recall you resolving the conflicts in the accounts.

There are some broad similarities between the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke. But none of the specific stories of Luke's narrative occurs in Matthew and vice versa. Matthew describes a flight to Egypt; Luke a journey to Bethlehem. In Luke Mary and Joseph leave town for a trip to register for the census in Bethlehem. Mary gives birth there and the couple returns home just over a month later following the law in Leviticus 12.

Matthew says nothing about a trip from Galilee to Bethlehem. On the contrary in Matthew the couple live there in a house and the Magi find baby Jesus there not in a stable. Herod sent troops "and slew all the children who were in Bethlehem and in all the region thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men." Apparently Herod expected to find Jesus living in Bethlehem up to two years after Jesus' birth.

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The census by Augustus is historical fact,
No. The historical facts don't line up with the story.

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The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judaea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE.[1] The Jewish historian Josephus portrays the annexation and census as the cause of an uprising which later became identified with the Zealot movement. The author of the Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish when Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Luke 2:1-5),[2] but places the census within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 10 years earlier in 4 BCE.[3] No satisfactory explanation has been put forward to resolve the contradiction,[4] and many scholars think that the author of the gospel made a mistake.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius



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and the star over Bethlehem is an astronomical fact.
Stars don't literally situate themselves over towns. A number of astronomical events have been proposed to be the Star of Bethlehem. But none of them that I am aware of correlate with the alleged facts of the birth narrative. Which one are you thinking of?
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Old 08-08-2017, 10:02 AM   #1027
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In another fascinating and informative paper by van Aarde entitled "Jesus' father: The quest for the historical Joseph", he includes the following internal evidence for the absent father hypothesis:

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  • Jesus' tension with his family;
  • Jesus' defence of the fatherless;
  • Jesus' judgment of the abandonment of women (and children) by an act of divorce;
  • Jesus' calling upon God as his father;
  • Jesus' critique of the Jerusalemites;
  • the absence of a family tomb as his last resting place.

http://www.hts.org.za/index.php/HTS/...load/1410/2704
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Old 08-08-2017, 10:51 AM   #1028
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The writer of Luke appropriated much of his story verbatim from the Gospel of Mark. You can see that by comparing the texts in parallel. Have you ever done that? Now Mark supposedly got his info from Peter who would have been an eye-witness. In a court of law that would be impermissible because it's hearsay. The author does not actually claim that he personally got his account directly from eyewitnesses.

You're ignoring the implication that calling Jesus "son of Mary" would have in first century Galilee. Furthermore, Joseph is never referred to in Mark which suggests that the author did not know of that story tradition.
Here is the only reference to "son of Mary" ...
Quote:
Mark 6 Jesus went on from there and came to His hometown, accompanied by His disciples. When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard Him were astonished. “Where did this man get these ideas?” they asked. “What is this wisdom He has been given? And how can He perform such miracles? Isn’t this the carpenter, the son of Mary and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas, and Simon? Aren’t His sisters here with us as well?” And they took offense at Him.
Here Jesus went back to His hometown of Nazareth and preached in the synagogue. They rejected Him, and Luke independently records that they were filled with anger and attempted to kill Him for mentioning the Gentiles. (Obviously Luke was not copying from Mark.) Since Joseph obviously for some time was deceased, the townspeople here referenced His occupation and the rest of His living family, whom they all knew well.

And yes, I have read thru the gospels chronologically with a harmony. Mark is the best source for a timeline because of the manner in which he decided to write. Mark (from Peter) included the most events, the least teaching, and the best chronology. Luke 1.2 specifically states that Luke's record is based on eye-witnesses, contrary to your claims.

You love your "science" and now your reference a "court of law," as if this negates the gospel record. On another day you will negate the gospel accounts because the apostles (i.e. Peter and John) were "unlearned and unlettered." The internet will afford you infinite reasons not to believe. There are many more for you to discover.
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Old 08-08-2017, 10:59 AM   #1029
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The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judaea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE.[1] The Jewish historian Josephus portrays the annexation and census as the cause of an uprising which later became identified with the Zealot movement. The author of the Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish when Jesus was born in Bethlehem (Luke 2:1-5),[2] but places the census within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 10 years earlier in 4 BCE.[3] No satisfactory explanation has been put forward to resolve the contradiction,[4] and many scholars think that the author of the gospel made a mistake.[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
This article addresses the events referenced by Luke 2.1-5.

https://jesusprophecies.wordpress.co...esar-augustus/
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So, what then was Luke referring to when he recorded that Caesar Augustus took a worldwide tax? Actually, other translations use a better English word for the Greek in this case than the King James offers. The Greek word apographo (G583) and apographe (G582) should be translated enrolled and enrollment respectively. What, then, was the world census / enrollment of Caesar Augustus, and when did it take place? In 2 BCE Augustus celebrated his silver jubilee and this coincided with the 750th anniversary of Rome. It was a year of great celebration in the Empire, and the Roman senate decided to honor Caesar by bestowing upon him the title, Pater Patriae or “Father of the Country”. In doing this, a worldwide census was taken in 3 BCE whereby every citizen of the Roman Empire swore allegiance to Caesar, and a notice stating this was presented to Caesar Augustus in February of 2 BCE.
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Old 08-08-2017, 03:46 PM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Ohio, of a quote
In doing this, a worldwide census was taken in 3 BCE whereby every citizen of the Roman Empire swore allegiance to Caesar, and a notice stating this was presented to Caesar Augustus in February of 2 BCE.
Except not:
Census of Quirinius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_of_Quirinius
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Old 08-08-2017, 04:13 PM   #1031
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Here is the only reference to "son of Mary" ...
Here Jesus went back to His hometown of Nazareth and preached in the synagogue. They rejected Him, and Luke independently records that they were filled with anger and attempted to kill Him for mentioning the Gentiles. (Obviously Luke was not copying from Mark.)
What's obvious about that? The sentence structure is virtually identical with some embellishment and word substitution. That doesn't happen without copying.


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Since Joseph obviously for some time was deceased, the townspeople here referenced His occupation and the rest of His living family, whom they all knew well.
Again, that isn't obvious. That Joseph was dead when Jesus started his ministry is an extra-biblical tradition.

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Luke 1.2 specifically states that Luke's record is based on eye-witnesses, contrary to your claims.
It's probably based on eye-witness accounts. That doesn't mean Luke was privy to eye-witness accounts himself. Likely there was an oral tradition before the educated started writing things down. The disciples themselves were mostly illiterate by all accounts. Where the author of Luke was in that chain of story telling, he doesn't say. None of the canonical gospels explicitly claim to be eye witness accounts.

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You love your "science" and now your reference a "court of law," as if this negates the gospel record. On another day you will negate the gospel accounts because the apostles (i.e. Peter and John) were "unlearned and unlettered." The internet will afford you infinite reasons not to believe. There are many more for you to discover.
I'm not negating the gospel record, I'm seeking to understand it.
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Old 08-08-2017, 05:24 PM   #1032
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The canonical gospels downplay the probable fact that before John's death, Jesus was his disciple. The fact that John baptized Jesus was a source of embarrassment because it implies that Jesus recognized John's spiritual superiority at that stage of his life, and that Jesus needed to repent. Nevertheless, in John Jesus seems to have found the strong male father figure that he needed to overcome the absence of a father when he was growing up.
Sorry, but the "probable facts" about how it all come to be are not written anywhere (and surely not in the manner that you present). I know that what is presented in the Bible is difficult if it really is not something in which God is involved. So the fact of God is either accepted and the unknown is left as such, or it is not accepted and alternate theories are put forward.

But I have read a little from at least one of the books that push those alternate theories (my father-in-law is a staunch atheist at this point in life). It had a lot of statements made as if there was a contemporary record of their alternate theory and it was settled. Of course, that is simply ridiculous. So you are left with three alternatives:

1) There is God and this could be entirely true as written

2) There is God but something else happened

3) There is no God

All the interesting theories developed in the last century or so are really of little importance to the discussion. Even if they were developed not long after the claims of a resurrection, they just don't have anything other than theories. It comes back to whether or not there is God and the Bible is a record of his interaction with man, including through his Son, Jesus.

Everything else is interesting theory. And if you don't believe, then all of it is theory. And whether or not it is true, because of the nature of the subject, suggesting alternate theories is pointless. Might as well be telling radio jokes.
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Old 08-08-2017, 06:09 PM   #1033
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I'm not negating the gospel record, I'm seeking to understand it.
Everything you write speaks otherwise.

You once had simple faith in His word.

Today it just seems you wish to prove it is all false.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:30 AM   #1034
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Sorry, but the "probable facts" about how it all come to be are not written anywhere (and surely not in the manner that you present). I know that what is presented in the Bible is difficult if it really is not something in which God is involved. So the fact of God is either accepted and the unknown is left as such, or it is not accepted and alternate theories are put forward.
That statement tells me more about how you think than it does about God or the Bible. Matthew 19:26 says "... with God all things are possible.” So it's typically Christian to view things from the standpoint of possibility. Therefore, I keep an open mind.

Modern science, on the other hand, looks at things in terms of probability. Some possibilities are more probable than others. probability takes us away from the realm of the absolute black and white, yes or no, all or nothing of religion to the statistical world of more or less. it tells me what is more likely to be the case in the world of infinite possibility. Therefore, look to probability when reading a text.

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But I have read a little from at least one of the books that push those alternate theories (my father-in-law is a staunch atheist at this point in life). It had a lot of statements made as if there was a contemporary record of their alternate theory and it was settled. Of course, that is simply ridiculous.
Without knowing what the book was that doesn't tell me much.

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So you are left with three alternatives:

1) There is God and this could be entirely true as written

2) There is God but something else happened

3) There is no God
Your alternatives assume that we know what God is. That's a problem.

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All the interesting theories developed in the last century or so are really of little importance to the discussion. Even if they were developed not long after the claims of a resurrection, they just don't have anything other than theories. It comes back to whether or not there is God and the Bible is a record of his interaction with man, including through his Son, Jesus.
Do you really know all the interesting theories? Please provide a coherent statement about what the resurrection is. Explain how it's more than images you see in your mind evoked by a lifetime of religious indoctrination. Also explain how your trinitarian belief is more than just a theory and an improbable one at that.

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Everything else is interesting theory. And if you don't believe, then all of it is theory. And whether or not it is true, because of the nature of the subject, suggesting alternate theories is pointless. Might as well be telling radio jokes.
There's that black and white thinking, e.g. one either believes or not. Haven't you observed that when you don't believe one thing, you believe another? So the choice isn't about believing or not, it's about believing one thing or another, this or that or perhaps this other? Doesn't the diversity of belief even among Christians teach you that? In the post you seem to be taking a my-way-or-the-highway stance.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:38 AM   #1035
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Everything you write speaks otherwise.

You once had simple faith in His word.

Today it just seems you wish to prove it is all false.
If I thought the Bible was false I wouldn't be looking at a theory about Jesus and claiming that it seems historically and psychologically plausible to me like I've been doing in the last half dozen posts.
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Old 08-09-2017, 06:58 AM   #1036
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If I thought the Bible was false I wouldn't be looking at a theory about Jesus and claiming that it seems historically and psychologically plausible to me like I've been doing in the last half dozen posts.
Didn't Jesus Himself tell us that we must come to him with child-like faith?

That doesn't sound to me like some of your alternative theories based on historical and psychological statistical probabilities.

I just can't go in that direction, yet in your analysis that restricts me to a place of that dreaded "black and white reasoning" and worse. Such is a false characterization you continually make of those who believe the scriptures with simplicity.
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:13 AM   #1037
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Didn't Jesus Himself tell us that we must come to him with child-like faith?

That doesn't sound to me like some of your alternative theories based on historical and psychological statistical probabilities.

I just can't go in that direction, yet in your analysis that restricts me to a place of that dreaded "black and white reasoning" and worse. Such is a false characterization you continually make of those who believe the scriptures with simplicity.
Yes and Paul said "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." Go figure.
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:16 AM   #1038
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Yes and Paul said "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." Go figure.
A proper understanding of these verses require that we know what are the "childish things" which Paul said he "did away with?"

Since he follows with, "But now abide faith, hope, love, and the greatest is love," I doubt if these are included.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:54 AM   #1039
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A proper understanding of these verses require that we know what are the "childish things" which Paul said he "did away with?"

Since he follows with, "But now abide faith, hope, love, and the greatest is love," I doubt if these are included.
So then, there are some childish things we should retain and some we should let go as adults. Faith is one to retain. And yes, my faith is child-like. It doesn't require me to abdicate critical thinking when I read the Bible though. But, sometimes I read it that way too-- as if in prayer.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:02 AM   #1040
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So then, there are some childish things we should retain and some we should let go as adults. Faith is one to retain. And yes, my faith is child-like. It doesn't require me to abdicate critical thinking when I read the Bible though. But, sometimes I read it that way too-- as if in prayer.
How can you read the Bible, even with prayer, if you look upon so many scripture with "critical thinking" and then decide they don't belong in the canon record?

This is exactly what so many of us ex-LC members protested against Lee and his cadre of Blendeds -- they looked upon certain scriptures with their "critical hinking," and rejected many books of Scripture, e.g. Proverbs, James, and many Psalms.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:12 AM   #1041
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Okay, back to Jesus and his father problem.

Let's figure a little here.

Young Mary got pregnant. For that to happen 23 chromosomes had to be donated to her 23 chromosomes to conceive life, and a Y chromosome to make a male child. How did that happen?

Possibilities :

1) Joseph - As some early Jewish Christians believed. He IS the mostly likely donor. But Matthew 1:25 says he DIDN'T 'know' her, until Jesus was born. (Writing decades later how would the anonymous author of Matthew know such a thing?) Anyway, if this is true -- and John says it is -- Jesus is not illegitimate ... except, they weren't married. Doesn't that mean Jesus was a bastard?

2) A Roman soldier ... a rumor that went around for a few hundred years. Or a one-night-stand. We'll dismiss that as just rumor. But if so Jesus would still be a bastard.

3) The Holy Spirit. ... like Matthew 1:20 says. This has a few problems.
a) How would the author know such a thing?

b) How would a non-physical being produce the 23 chromosomes necessary for conception?

c) Jesus wouldn't have a physical father. And since the holy Spirit and Mary weren't married (they had a one night stand) Jesus would still be considered illegitimate, thus John 8:41.
This is obviously just legend. What does bro Ohio call it? -> hagiography.

And then there's the problem of Jesus being sinless. Maybe his baptism was to wash away the sin of Mary's sinful chromosomes.

In the end we can conclude that Jesus had a father problem.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:48 AM   #1042
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Young Mary got pregnant. For that to happen 23 chromosomes had to be donated to her 23 chromosomes to conceive life, and a Y chromosome to make a male child. How did that happen?

3) The Holy Spirit. ... like Matthew 1:20 says. This has a few problems.
a) How would the author know such a thing?

b) How would a non-physical being produce the 23 chromosomes necessary for conception?

c) Jesus wouldn't have a physical father. And since the holy Spirit and Mary weren't married (they had a one night stand) Jesus would still be considered illegitimate, thus John 8:41.
This is obviously just legend. What does bro Ohio call it? -> hagiography.

And then there's the problem of Jesus being sinless. Maybe his baptism was to wash away the sin of Mary's sinful chromosomes.

In the end we can conclude that Jesus had a father problem.
Problems? All conception is a miracle from God. So God could create the heavens and the earth, and form man of the dust of the earth, but the Spirit of God could not conceive in a chaste virgin? The Bible is filled with events which science has no answer for.

I never called any of the virgin birth hagiography.

Jesus was sinless because He never sinned. Are you now bringing a charge against Him? That's pretty serious. You got some evidence and a few eyewitnesses?

Jesus' Father was God in the heavens. The entire gospel record, and His every word confirms this. He was, however, raised by Joseph the carpenter, and even learned His profession, being called "the Carpenter from Nazareth."

.................................................. ..................................

In the end we can only conclude that awareness himself may have had a "father problem." He has said as much on a number of occasions.

Something to consider folks.
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Old 08-09-2017, 01:07 PM   #1043
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In the end we can only conclude that awareness himself may have had a "father problem." He has said as much on a number of occasions.

Something to consider folks.
Ha ha touché. Are you suggesting I'm projecting my fathers problems upon Jesus? It doesn't fit. I'm not a bastard.

And my parents were consenting adults. Conception was not forced upon my mom like it was on under age Mary.

But I guess women were just considered chattel back then, and didn't have any say in conceiving.

Let me get this right. You are claiming the the creator of everything, used a non-physical being to suddenly be able to donate 23 physical chromosomes into Mary's Ovum??? Maybe it was one of those son's of God in Gen 6, that knew the fair young maiden Mary.

And none of this strikes you as the stuff of legend?

It wasn't unknown back then. Mythologies are full of such miracles. Jesus had to be at least as great as all those legendary mythical figures and hero's. So the mythmakers got busy and wrote it into the gospels stories. It's hagiography par excellence.

Mary got pregnant because Mary had sex. And there's indicators in the gospel record that Joseph was the biological father.

Else, how would Jesus have biological lineage back to king David, as per Matthew 1:16?
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Old 08-09-2017, 03:07 PM   #1044
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How can you read the Bible, even with prayer, if you look upon so many scripture with "critical thinking" and then decide they don't belong in the canon record?

This is exactly what so many of us ex-LC members protested against Lee and his cadre of Blendeds -- they looked upon certain scriptures with their "critical hinking," and rejected many books of Scripture, e.g. Proverbs, James, and many Psalms.
I never suggested any part of the Bible should be removed from the canon.
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Old 08-09-2017, 04:01 PM   #1045
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zeek,

You misunderstand. I do not say that there is nothing unknown. But what leads to an alternate outcome cannot be consistent within the framework of the scripture.

Just like admitting that the way that creation occurred (6 days, 6,000 years, or billions of years even through something like (or actually) evolution) does not really change anything. Neither does the idea of a homo sapiens-less world until one man and woman were created v the two representing (metaphorically) what had come to be mankind. I know some will argue on both of these.

But unless the goal is the undermining of all that is definitely taught in the Bible by arguing various alternative "back stories" (things that are not known and can only by hypothesized — without any actual foundation other than thinking that it "could be"), what is the purpose of going into the various trains of thought?

For example, is it simply a novel thought to wonder whether it was considered by Jesus to be a put-down to be baptized by John? If so, then what is the purpose? It would appear that John knew he was only the forerunner for someone greater. And Jesus had to talk him into actually doing the baptism. Seems Jesus was determined that it was to be that way. Not something that he was forced into that demeaned or embarrassed him.

The book I read explained away every miracle as something that just happened, or appeared to happen, and that Jesus just sort of went along with it, but was really just some average schmuck.

As for "all the theories," on what basis did you conclude that I know all the theories? I clearly have not heard every possible alternative theory that could be stated or imagined. But I see them as being primarily in two camps: 1) those that provide alternate "back story" details than what have been traditionally presumed and otherwise do not change what is recorded, and 2) those that change the nature of what is recorded in a manner that otherwise undermines what is recorded.

I realize that, like 6 day v a few billion years of evolution, some people insist that the difference is important while others yawn at it. And some of the things that I see as being in camp #2 may be understood as no different than the time and manner of creation is to me (and really in camp #1). But when it comes to those that make the whole claim of being God into a posthumous overlay by conspirators trying to creating something out of nothing (like the book my father-in-law gave me), I cannot take them seriously. Does that mean that my dividing line between camps 1 and 2 is fixed and not open to alteration? Probably not. But since I mostly think of camp #1 as being a bunch of yawns (not worth arguing about) the only thing that could come of studying either would be to somehow find actual evidence that some major aspect of what we believe was seriously misguided and should be something else.

But it seems that what the Bible actually says that appears to be of importance (concerning the person and nature of God and what should be that of the people who would return to "bear his image") is not really impacted by the yawns. And would only be impacted by the other camp as an undoing of the fabric of the scriptural record (or being analyzed into being another yawn).

You may argue that I am oversimplifying it. And you could be true. But I cannot find value in trying to discuss the ramifications of the Son of God (and he knew it at age 12 according to the record) being baptized by a mere mortal (for example) and therefore probably will ignore most of this line of reasoning as not for me. (And you will probably be fine with that, and I am fine with the fact that you are fine . . . .)

Now could we actually come up with something that better describes what we think we know about what we already see in the scripture? Possibly. But if it is that removed from the account that even the guys studying the culture, traditions, etc., of the times haven't come across it, do we really think that the God of the universe was so obtuse as to make it htat

If the goal of postmodernism is to "if" everything until it is something else, then it is a lost system. But I do not see that other than when someone is trying to change the subject or fight against what they don't like without sounding "modernistic" in their certainty.

"If" is potentially an illusion. As for the "possibilities," anything is possible if we start with the presumption that what is recorded is not accurate in the realm in which accuracy is important. (I say this because some are so enamored by each specific word that they cannot understand the sentences and paragraphs as being coherent discussions but rather as carriers of a multitude of secret messages.)

And, as I suggested, I will bow out.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:24 PM   #1046
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I never suggested any part of the Bible should be removed from the canon.
Huh? Word games?

Just the latest from you was that the virgin birth should be removed ...

Or it it, "leave it in but consider it a myth?"
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Old 08-09-2017, 08:05 PM   #1047
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How can you read the Bible, even with prayer, if you look upon so many scripture with "critical thinking" and then decide they don't belong in the canon record?

This is exactly what so many of us ex-LC members protested against Lee and his cadre of Blendeds -- they looked upon certain scriptures with their "critical hinking," and rejected many books of Scripture, e.g. Proverbs, James, and many Psalms.
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I never suggested any part of the Bible should be removed from the canon.
Methinks bro zeek is getting blame where I'm guilty. Like so many debates from even the early days, I don't think the book of Revelation should have ever been allowed in the canon. Look at all the havoc it's caused for thousands of years.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:20 PM   #1048
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Methinks bro zeek is getting blame where I'm guilty. Like so many debates from even the early days, I don't think the book of Revelation should have ever been allowed in the canon. Look at all the havoc it's caused for thousands of years.
You and Luther have something in common.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:22 PM   #1049
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But I guess women were just considered chattel back then, and didn't have any say in conceiving.
Mary gave her consent in response to the angel.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:36 PM   #1050
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Mary gave her consent in response to the angel.
Mary was not of the age of consent. What right would she have to tell the HS no? To say the least, she was way over powered.
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Old 08-09-2017, 09:59 PM   #1051
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Mary was not of the age of consent. What right would she have to tell the HS no? To say the least, she was way over powered.
She was at the age of consent for the time period.
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Old 08-10-2017, 04:05 AM   #1052
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Mary was not of the age of consent. What right would she have to tell the HS no? To say the least, she was way over powered.
So ... Now you accept the virgin birth, but have a problem with her age, yet we don't even know how old she was.

But we do know she was old enough to marry Joseph.

Is there any part of the Bible you are OK with?
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Old 08-10-2017, 06:45 AM   #1053
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Is there any part of the Bible you are OK with?
Remember, when Zeek and Awareness talk about the "Bible" they aren't talking about Jesus story, they are talking about their own story. If something doesn't fit with their story then they remove it, ignore it, distort it, etc. In the Bible according to Zeek there were 4 creations recorded in Genesis 1, and Jesus was not born of a virgin. In Awareness version an underaged girl was coerced by the Holy Spirit to have a child out of wedlock. Meanwhile the OT describes a despotic, immoral God.

The revelation is not about the scripture but about what is in their hearts and their experiences.
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Old 08-10-2017, 07:09 AM   #1054
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So ... Now you accept the virgin birth, . . .
Given Mary questioned her son's mental state, she must have forgotten the virgin birth. Or she knew she wasn't a virgin.

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but have a problem with her age, yet we don't even know how old she was.
So how old was she? Was she a grown woman? And why don't we know? We don't even know when Jesus was born. Why not?

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But we do know she was old enough to marry Joseph.
Back then that means she could have been 9 yrs old. And according to you, the creator of the whole universe impregnated her, so she didn't even need to have started her period. And if Joseph knocked her up he had to marry her.

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Is there any part of the Bible you are OK with?
I'm alright with I Corinthians 13 ... and oh, the sermon on the mount. But those parables are confusing, requiring too much guesswork. No wonder his mother thought he lost his mind.
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Old 08-10-2017, 07:40 AM   #1055
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I'm alright with I Corinthians 13 ...
There's nothing in your post which could verify this.

I Cor 13 says love "believes all things."
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:18 AM   #1056
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Huh? Word games?

Just the latest from you was that the virgin birth should be removed ...

Or it it, "leave it in but consider it a myth?"
I didn't say that the virgin birth should be removed. It's part of the church's story of Jesus. I think it's a myth not in the sense of a lie or a falsehood but in the sense of a symbolic narrative.

It was a normal practice for pre-modern authors of that time to divinize admired historical figures with miraculous birth stories. Plato, Alexander and both Julius and Augustus Caesar had divine birth narratives as did Buddha, Lao Tsu and Krishna and many others.

Setting aside modern science, divine conception is problematic even in terms of orthodox Christology since if Jesus did not have a normal human conception, it isn't seen how he could be considered truly human. The resulting heresy would be a form of Docetism, i.e. Jesus is a divine being who only appears to be human. That seems to be the way most fundamentalist-leaning evangelicals look at him even in the postmodern era.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:45 AM   #1057
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Huh? Word games?

Just the latest from you was that the virgin birth should be removed ...

Or it it, "leave it in but consider it a myth?"
I think we would all agree that in the last 2,000 years there have been more than 10 billion human births, of those only 1 was to a virgin and the Holy Spirit.

So the idea that Zeek is using human logic is laughable and idiotic. Obviously it is more logical and reasonable that there is some other explanation. But you can't change the narrative without calling numerous Bible writers as liars. Once again Zeek hems and haws on this, not a myth, lie, or falsehood, no, its symbolic (Zeek speak for putting a spin on the word lie).

He also points out that this practice was common for cult leaders, despotic leaders and false Christ's. But here is the problem with that natural viewpoint, the foundation of counterfeit dollars are always real dollars. How do you have a "false Christ" if there is no such thing as a real Christ?
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:43 PM   #1058
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I think we would all agree that in the last 2,000 years there have been more than 10 billion human births, of those only 1 was to a virgin and the Holy Spirit. So the idea that Zeek is using human logic is laughable and idiotic. Obviously it is more logical and reasonable that there is some other explanation.
Bingo!


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But you can't change the narrative without calling numerous Bible writers as liars. Once again Zeek hems and haws on this, not a myth, lie, or falsehood, no, its symbolic (Zeek speak for putting a spin on the word lie).
I didn't change the narrative and I acknowledged that it is myth in in the positive sense of the word which does not imply lying. The authors of Matthew and Luke wrote under the inspiration of their faith. The story may have already existed as an oral tradition. The genealogies, which don't support the virgin conception hypothesis, almost certainly did. If you want to say it's a lie go ahead, but, don't put words in my mouth. The symbolic power of the story is evident at Christmas pageants.

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He also points out that this practice was common for cult leaders, despotic leaders and false Christ's. But here is the problem with that natural viewpoint, the foundation of counterfeit dollars are always real dollars. How do you have a "false Christ" if there is no such thing as a real Christ?
I said nothing about cult leaders, despots or false Christs. That's your spin. Your logic is lacking though. You can have a false Easter Bunny if there is no such thing as a real Easter Bunny. It happens every Easter.
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Old 08-10-2017, 03:31 PM   #1059
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It was a normal practice for pre-modern authors of that time to divinize admired historical figures with miraculous birth stories. Plato, Alexander and .
. .
This is precisely why I don't believe in a literal virgin birth. Take Alexander the Great for instance.

"A story told that one night King Philip [like Joseph, said to be the biological father of Alexander] had found a huge snake in the bed next to his sleeping wife. Olympias ... The snake was said to be Zeus Ammon in disguise. After his visit to the Siwa Oasis in February 331, Alexander often referred to Zeus-Ammon as his true father."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1217210542.htm


This is obviously just a legend. A legend that was in common currency in Jesus' day.

Now by logic I read out here, Zeus is God and can do anything, and can produce a "human" child while disguised as a snake.

If I'm being expected to believe in Mary's virgin birth, then shouldn't I also except Alexander's divine birth? Both stories come from 2000 years ago, or longer. Maybe God and the gods were doing divine births back then.

You would think they aren't doing virgin births today. Think again :

Science
U.S. researchers ponder modern day virgin births


[Since 1990] Of 7,870 women, 0.5% consistently affirmed their status as virgins and did not use assisted reproductive technology, yet reported a virgin birth.


Hey, seems God, or some divine being(s) are still doing virgin births. Should we believe them? Why believe Mary and not Alexander, or the 40 women in modern times?
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Old 08-10-2017, 04:17 PM   #1060
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You can have a false Easter Bunny if there is no such thing as a real Easter Bunny. It happens every Easter.
Really? "you can have a false Easter Bunny if there is no such thing as a real Easter bunny". I'll add that to your greatest hits collection.
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Old 08-10-2017, 06:47 PM   #1061
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So ... Now you accept the virgin birth, but have a problem with her age, yet we don't even know how old she was.

But we do know she was old enough to marry Joseph.

Is there any part of the Bible you are OK with?
"old enough" at that time was 3 years old, but more likely 12 to 14 years.

All the nativity scenes at Christmas are wrong. Joseph should look 90 years and Mary should look 12 years old.
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Old 08-10-2017, 07:00 PM   #1062
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This is precisely why I don't believe in a literal virgin birth. Take Alexander the Great for instance.

"A story told that one night King Philip [like Joseph, said to be the biological father of Alexander] had found a huge snake in the bed next to his sleeping wife. Olympias ... The snake was said to be Zeus Ammon in disguise. After his visit to the Siwa Oasis in February 331, Alexander often referred to Zeus-Ammon as his true father."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1217210542.htm


This is obviously just a legend. A legend that was in common currency in Jesus' day.

Now by logic I read out here, Zeus is God and can do anything, and can produce a "human" child while disguised as a snake.

If I'm being expected to believe in Mary's virgin birth, then shouldn't I also except Alexander's divine birth? Both stories come from 2000 years ago, or longer. Maybe God and the gods were doing divine births back then.

You would think they aren't doing virgin births today. Think again :

Science
U.S. researchers ponder modern day virgin births


[Since 1990] Of 7,870 women, 0.5% consistently affirmed their status as virgins and did not use assisted reproductive technology, yet reported a virgin birth.


Hey, seems God, or some divine being(s) are still doing virgin births. Should we believe them? Why believe Mary and not Alexander, or the 40 women in modern times?
It does not require a miracle to have a virgin birth, I think these women got a bit careless or practiced poor hygiene.
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Old 08-10-2017, 08:26 PM   #1063
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Really? "you can have a false Easter Bunny if there is no such thing as a real Easter bunny". I'll add that to your greatest hits collection.
Just don't follow either the false or real bunny down the rabbit hole. Down there there's lots of far-out fantasy -- good and evil characters -- similar to some of the fantasies in the Bible ... like talking and walking snakes, and stars that move at walking speed.

But that was so common back then, in Bible days. For example, a pseudepigraphical gospel, that most Bible scholars date in the first half of the 2nd c., or one top respected Bible scholar places as being written before the synoptic gospels -- either way before the canon was developed -- this was another gospel, called The Gospel of Peter. In it Peter has angels as tall as the sky going into Jesus' tomb, and coming out with Jesus, who is taller than the sky, with the cross following, and telling God that it did it's job in hell.

The canonical Bible has a walking talking serpent, and the non-canonical Gospel of Peter has a walking talking cross. Same, same. As I stated, what we consider fantasy today was in common currecny back then.

The Bible was written when superstitions ruled the day. The age of science was long up the road. Most were illiterate. They couldn't help it. We can't fault them for it ... any more than we can fault the early animists when they saw spirits in everything.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:33 AM   #1064
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Really? "you can have a false Easter Bunny if there is no such thing as a real Easter bunny". I'll add that to your greatest hits collection.
Right. The "real" Easter Bunny exists in your imagination. Every actual "Easter Bunny" that you see is a false one. Same with Santa. Hate to break it to you.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:47 AM   #1065
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zeek,

You misunderstand. I do not say that there is nothing unknown. But what leads to an alternate outcome cannot be consistent within the framework of the scripture.

Just like admitting that the way that creation occurred (6 days, 6,000 years, or billions of years even through something like (or actually) evolution) does not really change anything. Neither does the idea of a homo sapiens-less world until one man and woman were created v the two representing (metaphorically) what had come to be mankind. I know some will argue on both of these.

But unless the goal is the undermining of all that is definitely taught in the Bible by arguing various alternative "back stories" (things that are not known and can only by hypothesized — without any actual foundation other than thinking that it "could be"), what is the purpose of going into the various trains of thought?

For example, is it simply a novel thought to wonder whether it was considered by Jesus to be a put-down to be baptized by John? If so, then what is the purpose? It would appear that John knew he was only the forerunner for someone greater. And Jesus had to talk him into actually doing the baptism. Seems Jesus was determined that it was to be that way. Not something that he was forced into that demeaned or embarrassed him.

The book I read explained away every miracle as something that just happened, or appeared to happen, and that Jesus just sort of went along with it, but was really just some average schmuck.

As for "all the theories," on what basis did you conclude that I know all the theories? I clearly have not heard every possible alternative theory that could be stated or imagined. But I see them as being primarily in two camps: 1) those that provide alternate "back story" details than what have been traditionally presumed and otherwise do not change what is recorded, and 2) those that change the nature of what is recorded in a manner that otherwise undermines what is recorded.

I realize that, like 6 day v a few billion years of evolution, some people insist that the difference is important while others yawn at it. And some of the things that I see as being in camp #2 may be understood as no different than the time and manner of creation is to me (and really in camp #1). But when it comes to those that make the whole claim of being God into a posthumous overlay by conspirators trying to creating something out of nothing (like the book my father-in-law gave me), I cannot take them seriously. Does that mean that my dividing line between camps 1 and 2 is fixed and not open to alteration? Probably not. But since I mostly think of camp #1 as being a bunch of yawns (not worth arguing about) the only thing that could come of studying either would be to somehow find actual evidence that some major aspect of what we believe was seriously misguided and should be something else.

But it seems that what the Bible actually says that appears to be of importance (concerning the person and nature of God and what should be that of the people who would return to "bear his image") is not really impacted by the yawns. And would only be impacted by the other camp as an undoing of the fabric of the scriptural record (or being analyzed into being another yawn).

You may argue that I am oversimplifying it. And you could be true. But I cannot find value in trying to discuss the ramifications of the Son of God (and he knew it at age 12 according to the record) being baptized by a mere mortal (for example) and therefore probably will ignore most of this line of reasoning as not for me. (And you will probably be fine with that, and I am fine with the fact that you are fine . . . .)

Now could we actually come up with something that better describes what we think we know about what we already see in the scripture? Possibly. But if it is that removed from the account that even the guys studying the culture, traditions, etc., of the times haven't come across it, do we really think that the God of the universe was so obtuse as to make it htat

If the goal of postmodernism is to "if" everything until it is something else, then it is a lost system. But I do not see that other than when someone is trying to change the subject or fight against what they don't like without sounding "modernistic" in their certainty.

"If" is potentially an illusion. As for the "possibilities," anything is possible if we start with the presumption that what is recorded is not accurate in the realm in which accuracy is important. (I say this because some are so enamored by each specific word that they cannot understand the sentences and paragraphs as being coherent discussions but rather as carriers of a multitude of secret messages.)

And, as I suggested, I will bow out.
I understand. It would be a challenge to your faith to look at serious historical research on Jesus which you have mischaracterized above. Better to bow out.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:08 PM   #1066
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Right. The "real" Easter Bunny exists in your imagination. Every actual "Easter Bunny" that you see is a false one. Same with Santa. Hate to break it to you.
There is no "real Easter bunny" living in my imagination. I think you have me confused with James Stewart. Likewise with Santa, there is no Santa living in my imagination. Just more Zeek speak.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:25 PM   #1067
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Bingo!
You think your approach is logical and reasonable yet it isn't scientific. If you have a hypothesis based on logic and reasonableness, that is fine. Your hypothesis is that Jesus is not born of a virgin. Fine. But then the scientific approach would be to look at everything that could prove He is to see if it disproves your theory. That would be scientific, you have a hypothesis, now is there any evidence that would disprove my theory.

I on the other hand have a hypothesis that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

1. This is a one in 10 billion possibility. Yes, that is a given, but that doesn't disprove the hypothesis.

2. Jesus touched a funeral bier, that is forbidden in the OT and would cause someone with a nazarite vow to immediately lose their vow. Since Jesus priesthood was not based on the lineage of Aaron it is safe to say this would disqualify Him. However, the boy rose from the dead. So no dice. On the other hand that does support the assertion that He was the Christ the Son of God.

3. The same is true of touching lepers, but once again since they were healed that also works to support my hypothesis, not disprove it.

4. The story of the wise men from the East coming to Jerusalem and talking to the High priest is very interesting, and is either a really strange coincidence or else supports my hypothesis.

5. The killing of 2,000 children as the fulfillment of a prophesy is once again something that supports my hypothesis. Some prophecies are very clear (Son of David, born in Bethlehem) but this one was not at all clear, not something Jesus or later disciples could have manufactured, hence to a forensic investigator it would be extremely interesting.

6. Of course there are a number of prophecies that were fulfilled (His mother descended from the one line of David, her husband descended from the other), fleeing to Egypt, returning to Nazareth, the testimony of John the Baptist, etc., etc. These prophecies definitely support the hypothesis, and since it is no longer possible to trace lineage to David it is very interesting because if any of the prophecies are to be believed then the Christ has already come. You can discredit these as "myths" as you are wont to do, but every single prophecy that you have to chalk up as a myth weakens your credibility.

7. Human history pivots on Christ's death, referring to the time before Christ and the time after Christ. That is an amazing testimony that billions of people of all different cultures and faiths see this one man as so influential and pivotal.

8. Then of course there is the value of the witnesses. Every single witness that testified that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God should be weighed for their credibility. These ones should be compared to those like yourself. In a court of law your testimony would be rejected as hearsay whereas the gospel writers would be viewed as first hand or second hand witnesses, all of whom met and talked with Jesus mother Mary and His brother James.

9. Another way to look at this is to look at the fruit. When you compare Jesus to false Christ's and Cult leaders you can compare the fruit. Compare Peter, John, Matthew, Paul, Luke, Mark, Jude, etc.

All you have done is provide an explanation for your hypothesis. You have not examined the evidence that could have proved your hypothesis wrong. Bias shows through and through in your analysis. You have simply swept all evidence that is inconvenient to you under the rug.
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Old 08-11-2017, 05:48 PM   #1068
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There is no "real Easter bunny" living in my imagination. I think you have me confused with James Stewart. Likewise with Santa, there is no Santa living in my imagination. Just more Zeek speak.
If images of the Easter Bunny and Santa were not present in your imagination the words Easter Bunny and Santa would be meaningless to you. Those images and the thoughts associated with them define Easter Bunny and Santa for you. In that sense they are the real Easter Bunny and Santa to you. If you were to meet Jesus of Nazareth on the street and he didn't match up to your image of Christ you would likely reject him as another false Christ. Rare is the person who would change the ideal image in their mind to match a guy standing in front of him/her.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:56 PM   #1069
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If images of the Easter Bunny and Santa were not present in your imagination the words Easter Bunny and Santa would be meaningless to you. Those images and the thoughts associated with them define Easter Bunny and Santa for you. In that sense they are the real Easter Bunny and Santa to you. If you were to meet Jesus of Nazareth on the street and he didn't match up to your image of Christ you would likely reject him as another false Christ. Rare is the person who would change the ideal image in their mind to match a guy standing in front of him/her.
Let me get this straight, the Bible says there is a Christ, hence that is defined for me in my mind, i.e. "the real Christ". Then every single fake Christ can be a false Christ because they don't measure up to the definition, in my mind, that I got from the Bible.

The problem with that is that Jesus does measure up to the full definition of that Christ.

Now, so far your only explanation for this is that all of those prophecies, say 400 of them, are "myths". But how do you explain 400 myths being fulfilled by a real person?

If you use your previous analysis that since 10 billion people have been born not of a virgin the chances of one being born to a virgin is less than 1 in 10 billion.

Then by that reasoning the odds of 400 prophecies concerning Christ being fulfilled is something along the lines of 1 in 100 raised to the 400th power. I plugged this into my calculator and the answer came back "infinity". [Even if you were extremely generous and said that any one of those prophecies had a 1 in 20 chance of being fulfilled, you raise 20 to the 100th power and you get 1 followed by 130 zeros. That is as far as you can go, after that it is no longer "a number".] You have one chance in infinity that a man could be the fulfillment of 400 OT prophecies concerning Him. Any reasonable, logical person looking at the numbers would realize that these prophecies alone have proved beyond any reasonable doubt a thousand fold.

Bingo! If you want to be logical and reasonable you would realize the odds are very much in favor of my theory, rather than your hypothesis. Your reasoning merely explains why you have chosen your hypothesis, it isn't evidence. However, fulfilled prophecies are admissible evidence. 400 pieces of evidence, well that is no longer a hypothesis, that is a theory.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:35 PM   #1070
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You think your approach is logical and reasonable yet it isn't scientific. If you have a hypothesis based on logic and reasonableness, that is fine. Your hypothesis is that Jesus is not born of a virgin. Fine. But then the scientific approach would be to look at everything that could prove He is to see if it disproves your theory. That would be scientific, you have a hypothesis, now is there any evidence that would disprove my theory.

I on the other hand have a hypothesis that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

1. This is a one in 10 billion possibility. Yes, that is a given, but that doesn't disprove the hypothesis.
No, but the odds of 1 in 10 billion are astronomically improbable. The probability that he was illegitimate is vastly greater as it has happened throughout recorded history and continues to occur.

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2. Jesus touched a funeral bier, that is forbidden in the OT and would cause someone with a nazarite vow to immediately lose their vow. Since Jesus priesthood was not based on the lineage of Aaron it is safe to say this would disqualify Him. However, the boy rose from the dead. So no dice. On the other hand that does support the assertion that He was the Christ the Son of God.
It's a story. Witnessed by whom? Probably passed along by oral tradition before it was written down.

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3. The same is true of touching lepers, but once again since they were healed that also works to support my hypothesis, not disprove it.
Were they? Do you have independent witnesses or did the writers of Matthew and Luke copy Mark? Side by side comparison supports the latter conclusion.

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4. The story of the wise men from the East coming to Jerusalem and talking to the High priest is very interesting, and is either a really strange coincidence or else supports my hypothesis.
No corroboration of that story anywhere. Could be entirely symbolic.

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5. The killing of 2,000 children as the fulfillment of a prophesy is once again something that supports my hypothesis. Some prophecies are very clear (Son of David, born in Bethlehem) but this one was not at all clear, not something Jesus or later disciples could have manufactured, hence to a forensic investigator it would be extremely interesting.
The author doesn't name the source of the story. There is no corroboration of that story in the other Gospels or by other contemporary writers including Josephus who reported many of Herod's misdeeds.

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Of course there are a number of prophecies that were fulfilled (His mother descended from the one line of David, her husband descended from the other),
Neither genealogy claims to be that of Mary and the line of succession was passed through the father not the mother.

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fleeing to Egypt, returning to Nazareth,
There's no mention of flight to Egypt in Luke and in Luke Jesus' family originally lived in Bethlehem not Nazareth before the flight to Egypt so it was a migration not a return. Thus do the birth stories conflict.

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the testimony of John the Baptist, etc., etc.
Source?

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These prophecies definitely support the hypothesis, and since it is no longer possible to trace lineage to David it is very interesting because if any of the prophecies are to be believed then the Christ has already come. You can discredit these as "myths" as you are wont to do, but every single prophecy that you have to chalk up as a myth weakens your credibility.
The so-called prophecies are taken out of their contexts in the Jewish Bible and made to imply events other than their original intent.

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Human history pivots on Christ's death, referring to the time before Christ and the time after Christ. That is an amazing testimony that billions of people of all different cultures and faiths see this one man as so influential and pivotal.
No one is denying the cultural influence of Christianity on western society. Buddha had similar impact on the East.

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Then of course there is the value of the witnesses. Every single witness that testified that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God should be weighed for their credibility. These ones should be compared to those like yourself. In a court of law your testimony would be rejected as hearsay whereas the gospel writers would be viewed as first hand or second hand witnesses, all of whom met and talked with Jesus mother Mary and His brother James.
From what I read you are mistaken on this point. All four of the gospels were authored anonymously and received their titles later according to tradition.


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Another way to look at this is to look at the fruit. When you compare Jesus to false Christ's and Cult leaders you can compare the fruit. Compare Peter, John, Matthew, Paul, Luke, Mark, Jude, etc.
Christianity has produced good and bad fruit like most if not all historic institutions.

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All you have done is provide an explanation for your hypothesis. You have not examined the evidence that could have proved your hypothesis wrong. Bias shows through and through in your analysis. You have simply swept all evidence that is inconvenient to you under the rug.
I have presented a falsifiable hypothesis which I find supported by a number of historians. The evidence to the contrary you have cited so far amounts to zip.

Additional evidence to support the illegitimate birth hypothesis of Jesus comes from the women in Matthews's genealogy:

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There is one other interesting and frequently-noted feature of Matthew’s genealogy of Jesus (actually, not of Jesus, but of Joseph). That is the fact that it makes explicit reference to women among Jesus’ ancestors. That is highly unusual. Women scarcely ever appear in most ancient Israelite and Jewish genealogies;, which invariably trace a person’s lineage from
father to son (or vice versa) all the way back through the family line; see, as I pointed out earlier 1 Chronicles 1-9. Where are the women? For ancient genealogists, as a rule, they were not important enough to mention.
But Matthew not only ends his genealogy by mentioning Mary, Jesus’ mother, but he also includes reference to four other women: Tamar (v. 3), Rahab (v. 5), Ruth (v. 5), and the “wife of Uriah” that is, Bathsheba (v. 6). Stories about all four of these women are found in the Jewish Scriptures (Tamar: Genesis 38; Rahab: Joshua2, 6; Ruth; Ruth 1-4; and Bathsheba: 2 Samuel 11-12).

But why does Matthew mention them here? Among the numerous theories proposed over the years, two are particularly intriguing:
1. All four of the women appear to have been gentiles, that is, non-Israelites (Tamar and Rahab were both Canaanites; Ruth was Moabite; and Bathsheba was married to Uriah, a Hittite). Could it be that Matthew mentions them to show that God’s plan of salvation had always encompassed not only Jews but also gentiles (cf., for example, his story of the wise men, which also makes that point)? This is an attractive theory, but it has one particular shortcoming: it does not explain how these four women are connected with the final one mentioned, Mary, who was not a gentile. And so, perhaps a second explanation is to be preferred (or possibly both explanations are part of the fuller reason for including these names).
2. All four women were involved with sexual activities that were viewed as scandalous by outsiders but that furthered the purposes of God. Tamar, for example, tricked her father-inlaw into having sex with her by disguising herself as a prostitute; Rahab was a prostitute who lived in Jericho (and in the tradition later became the mother-in-law of Ruth); Ruth
seduced her kinsman Boaz (that’s what it means in Ruth 3 when it says that at night, she came up to him, while he was asleep, and “uncovered his feet.” “Feet” is a euphemism in the Hebrew Bible for “genitals”), who then proposed marriage to her (they became the grandparents of King David); and Bathsheba committed adultery with David (or was raped
by him, as some interpreters have suggested) and ended up marrying him (and fathering his child Solomon) after he arranged to have her husband killed. Why would allusions to such stories strike Matthew as appropriate for his genealogy of Jesus? Could it have to do with Mary, the last woman mentioned, the mother of Jesus, herself? Recall: she too was thought
to have engaged in illicit sexual activity when she became pregnant out of wedlock. Even Joseph was suspicious, in Matthew’s version, and decided to dissolve their relationship in secret. Matthew, however, saw the matter differently: once again God used a potential sex scandal to further his plans, having Jesus miraculously born from a woman who was still a virgin. https://ehrmanblog.org/the-women-in-...y-for-members/
According to my hypothesis Jesus was son of the God who is a "father to the fatherless" [ Psalms 68:5 ]
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:09 PM   #1071
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Let me get this straight, the Bible says there is a Christ, hence that is defined for me in my mind, i.e. "the real Christ". Then every single fake Christ can be a false Christ because they don't measure up to the definition, in my mind, that I got from the Bible. The problem with that is that Jesus does measure up to the full definition of that Christ.
Praise the Lord! I don't have a problem with that . There are, however historical, epistemological, and, praise God!, ontological problems with it, that, hallelujah!, it would be irresponsible to ignore.

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Now, so far your only explanation for this is that all of those prophecies, say 400 of them, are "myths". But how do you explain 400 myths being fulfilled by a real person?
Wow 400! That's a lot of them. I haven't been impressed with the one's I've been examining lately [including yours in previous posts]. But I haven't looked at all 400 of them. Lay them on me, brother. It'll be an education for me to go through them, perhaps only equaled by the education I got sitting at the virtual feet of Witness Lee at his trainings and all those "Life-Study" videos I sat through.

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If you use your previous analysis that since 10 billion people have been born not of a virgin the chances of one being born to a virgin is less than 1 in 10 billion. Then by that reasoning the odds of 400 prophecies concerning Christ being fulfilled is something along the lines of 1 in 100 raised to the 400th power. I plugged this into my calculator and the answer came back "infinity".
Wow, you're blowing my mind bro.


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[Even if you were extremely generous and said that any one of those prophecies had a 1 in 20 chance of being fulfilled, you raise 20 to the 100th power and you get 1 followed by 130 zeros. That is as far as you can go, after that it is no longer "a number".] You have one chance in infinity that a man could be the fulfillment of 400 OT prophecies concerning Him. Any reasonable, logical person looking at the numbers would realize that these prophecies alone have proved beyond any reasonable doubt a thousand fold.
That's a ginormous claim. You're going to have to break it down into actual coherent individual arguments from the evidence for me to deal with it as you would say "scientifically" or logically.

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Bingo! If you want to be logical and reasonable you would realize the odds are very much in favor of my theory, rather than your hypothesis. Your reasoning merely explains why you have chosen your hypothesis, it isn't evidence. However, fulfilled prophecies are admissible evidence. 400 pieces of evidence, well that is no longer a hypothesis, that is a theory.
Well simply claiming that there are 400 arguments isn't actually stating them. Stating them is what you need to do in order to demonstrate that you're not just bull****ting.
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:52 AM   #1072
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I'm with OBW ....
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Old 08-12-2017, 01:59 PM   #1073
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You think your approach is logical and reasonable yet it isn't scientific. If you have a hypothesis based on logic and reasonableness, that is fine. Your hypothesis is that Jesus is not born of a virgin. Fine. But then the scientific approach would be to look at everything that could prove He is to see if it disproves your theory. That would be scientific, you have a hypothesis, now is there any evidence that would disprove my theory.
Let's say that there were thousands of witnesses to the virgin birth, going around in the form of stories, during the oral tradition, before any gospel had been written. That would be very strong evidence for the virgin birth.

The problem is, of the possible many voices and stories of the VB, we only have two witnesses. The lack, or shortage of witnesses -- and Matthew and Luke, whoever the authors are, are not eyewitnesses -- mean evidence for the VB is weak.

Moreover, of the 27 NT books we have from the 1st c., only two speak of the VB. Again, the shortage of writings about the VB, given the chance of others writing about it -- especially Paul, our earliest writer of those days, the closet to the VB -- means evidence for the VB is weak.

And then, there's evidence that the early copies of Luke didn't have chapters 1 & 2. If so, we only have one witness of the VB, and he wasn't an eyewitness, of course.

No one was an eyewitness to the angel impregnating Mary, except Mary. And even she didn't understand it, wasn't a believer in it, and didn't write about it, that we know of (We do have a gospel called The Gospel of Mary. Which Mary? And it also doesn't mention the VB).

Conclusion : Of the many voices we could have had for the VB, and possible writers, we only have two, and one is in question. Therefore evidence for the VB is double weak.
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:29 PM   #1074
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Let's say that there were thousands of witnesses to the virgin birth, going around in the form of stories, during the oral tradition, before any gospel had been written. That would be very strong evidence for the virgin birth.

The problem is, of the possible many voices and stories of the VB, we only have two witnesses. The lack, or shortage of witnesses -- and Matthew and Luke, whoever the authors are, are not eyewitnesses -- mean evidence for the VB is weak.

Moreover, of the 27 NT books we have from the 1st c., only two speak of the VB. Again, the shortage of writings about the VB, given the chance of others writing about it -- especially Paul, our earliest writer of those days, the closet to the VB -- means evidence for the VB is weak.

And then, there's evidence that the early copies of Luke didn't have chapters 1 & 2. If so, we only have one witness of the VB, and he wasn't an eyewitness, of course.

No one was an eyewitness to the angel impregnating Mary, except Mary. And even she didn't understand it, wasn't a believer in it, and didn't write about it, that we know of (We do have a gospel called The Gospel of Mary. Which Mary? And it also doesn't mention the VB).

Conclusion : Of the many voices we could have had for the VB, and possible writers, we only have two, and one is in question. Therefore evidence for the VB is double weak.
Millions and millions of Christians over 2,000 years have accepted and believed that Jesus, the eternal Only-begotten Son of God, was born of the virgin Mary, as recorded by two evangelists, Matthew and Luke.

And now awareness and zeek are on a mission in these final days to inform our little corner of mankind that all the believers were wrong, fooled, and deceived. Imagine that, only zeek and awareness are now aware of the real story of history.

So we must decide who to believe. Should we believe two millennia of Christians or awareness, whose tagline reads, "My God is real. But everyone else's God is silly made up nonsense."

Choose you this day who you will believe!
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Old 08-12-2017, 07:45 PM   #1075
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Millions and millions of Christians over 2,000 years have accepted and believed that Jesus, the eternal Only-begotten Son of God, was born of the virgin Mary, as recorded by two evangelists, Matthew and Luke.

And now awareness and zeek are on a mission in these final days to inform our little corner of mankind that all the believers were wrong, fooled, and deceived. Imagine that, only zeek and awareness are now aware of the real story of history.

So we must decide who to believe. Should we believe two millennia of Christians or awareness, whose tagline reads, "My God is real. But everyone else's God is silly made up nonsense."

Choose you this day who you will believe!
rotflmao ....
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Old 08-12-2017, 08:36 PM   #1076
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rotflmao ....
Yer a funny guy.

Don't you ever get tired of reading and writing that nonsense?
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:40 AM   #1077
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Yer a funny guy.

Don't you ever get tired of reading and writing that nonsense?
Nah. Since the invention of writing when has man gotten tired of reading and writing nonsense?

Like The Gospel of Mary, the Apocryphon of John (The Secret book of John), and even writings in the Bible.

It's a hard job, but somebody has got to do it.

No thanks necessary.
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Old 08-13-2017, 07:25 AM   #1078
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Let's see if we can't tie this into this thread.

I could be a model for what it is to be a postmodern Christian. I still have "my idea of Jesus," but I question everything ... and have some obsession with it. From the outside it looks silly. Why? I ask myself. Most could care less.

But I'm not most. And most is not most either. We're postmodernist Christians. We disagree but still love each other.

And that fits "my idea of Jesus."
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Old 08-13-2017, 09:56 AM   #1079
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Millions and millions of Christians over 2,000 years have accepted and believed that Jesus, the eternal Only-begotten Son of God, was born of the virgin Mary, as recorded by two evangelists, Matthew and Luke.
This is a fallacious argument. It's been called a "bandwagon argument". It's like saying millions and millions have smoked for centuries so it must not be bad for you.



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And now awareness and zeek are on a mission in these final days to inform our little corner of mankind that all the believers were wrong, fooled, and deceived. Imagine that, only zeek and awareness are now aware of the real story of history.
It's not just Awareness and I. I have cited several papers by historians that espouse the illegitimate birth hypothesis and there are many more that anyone who is curious can find.

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So we must decide who to believe. Should we believe two millennia of Christians or awareness, whose tagline reads, "My God is real. But everyone else's God is silly made up nonsense." Choose you this day who you will believe!
No need for hysteria. And, no need to decide. Neither Jesus nor Paul nor Mark nor John nor Peter nor James nor Jude included virgin conception in their gospel messages. So an up or down vote on it is unnecessary from an existential point of view.
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Old 08-13-2017, 08:46 PM   #1080
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Millions and millions of Christians over 2,000 years have accepted and believed that Jesus, the eternal Only-begotten Son of God, was born of the virgin Mary, as recorded by two evangelists, Matthew and Luke.
Funny how the RCC is fine to prove the validity of believing Christian things, like the virgin birth. And they also believed Mary is the mother of God (I guess the VB and Theotokos go together). They also believed in your favorite relic, the Holy Foreskin of Jesus ... and other relics.

Millions also believed in purgatory and limbo.

Do those millions make all that so too?
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Old 08-14-2017, 05:28 AM   #1081
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Let's see if we can't tie this into this thread.

I could be a model for what it is to be a postmodern Christian. I still have "my idea of Jesus," but I question everything ... and have some obsession with it. From the outside it looks silly. Why? I ask myself. Most could care less.

But I'm not most. And most is not most either. We're postmodernist Christians. We disagree but still love each other.

And that fits "my idea of Jesus."
Unfortunately you have completely missed the point of the question.

The question I ask concerning Jesus -- who is He? Is based on the fact that in all of human history He stands out as unique and pivotal. Why? We have had great scientists, great leaders, great artists, great philosophers and none of them can stand up to this man.

The closest you can come in human history is Moses, and yet he comes in a distant 2nd to Jesus.

Why is it today that billions of people are concerned about Jesus, not just the Christians, the unbelievers too. The entire Harry Potter series is based on Biblical stories like victory over Satan through the cross of Christ. Even the Muslims and Jews cannot escape Jesus as a pivotal and significant figure.

So in your mind, your explanation for why He is so unique is that "He is just like everyone else". How is that an explanation?

Zeek argues that his hypothesis is based on the fact that God is the father of the fatherless. Well God also puts the solitary into families. There is no one in human history more solitary and unique than Jesus, why is that? Because He is just like everyone else?

That is just a pathetic non answer answer.

For someone who supposedly questions everything you seem to have blinders on to the real questions.

I watch the news about this rally in NC, you have people protesting the removal of a statue for Robert E Lee, perhaps the greatest American general in our history (and yet what a very poor comparison this "great" general would make to Jesus), and you have anti protesters protesting the rally. The news and politicians (except Trump) are in lockstep condemning the white supremacists terrorism. No one, other than the protesters are saying anything about their freedom of speech being denied (from what I understand the rally was shut down? Very hard to figure out from the news even though it is continuous). So there is this great danger of "group think" controlling the world so that the only option the minorities (by all accounts these protesters represent a very tiny fraction of a percent of Americans) have is violence. We saw this with the rise of ISIS, we saw this with the Civil War, we saw this with the US revolutionary war, this is the spirit of the world. If you insult Mohammed you die. That is the spirit of Islam. If you blaspheme you die. That is the spirit of Judaism in demanding Jesus crucifixion.

But that is not the spirit of Jesus. Why is Jesus so different and so unique from all of human history?

Perhaps the closest we have to Jesus in the modern world is Ghandi, and yet on many different levels he is a very poor comparison. Jesus teaching is farm more impactful, and Jesus disciples have transformed this world. Ghandi is clearly a disciple holding on to one verse (promise) from Jesus.
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Old 08-14-2017, 08:48 AM   #1082
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Unfortunately you have completely missed the point of the question.

The question I ask concerning Jesus -- who is He? Is based on the fact that in all of human history He stands out as unique and pivotal. Why? We have had great scientists, great leaders, great artists, great philosophers and none of them can stand up to this man.

The closest you can come in human history is Moses, and yet he comes in a distant 2nd to Jesus.

Why is it today that billions of people are concerned about Jesus, not just the Christians, the unbelievers too. The entire Harry Potter series is based on Biblical stories like victory over Satan through the cross of Christ. Even the Muslims and Jews cannot escape Jesus as a pivotal and significant figure.

So in your mind, your explanation for why He is so unique is that "He is just like everyone else". How is that an explanation?

Zeek argues that his hypothesis is based on the fact that God is the father of the fatherless. Well God also puts the solitary into families. There is no one in human history more solitary and unique than Jesus, why is that? Because He is just like everyone else?

That is just a pathetic non answer answer.

For someone who supposedly questions everything you seem to have blinders on to the real questions.

I watch the news about this rally in NC, you have people protesting the removal of a statue for Robert E Lee, perhaps the greatest American general in our history (and yet what a very poor comparison this "great" general would make to Jesus), and you have anti protesters protesting the rally. The news and politicians (except Trump) are in lockstep condemning the white supremacists terrorism. No one, other than the protesters are saying anything about their freedom of speech being denied (from what I understand the rally was shut down? Very hard to figure out from the news even though it is continuous). So there is this great danger of "group think" controlling the world so that the only option the minorities (by all accounts these protesters represent a very tiny fraction of a percent of Americans) have is violence. We saw this with the rise of ISIS, we saw this with the Civil War, we saw this with the US revolutionary war, this is the spirit of the world. If you insult Mohammed you die. That is the spirit of Islam. If you blaspheme you die. That is the spirit of Judaism in demanding Jesus crucifixion.

But that is not the spirit of Jesus. Why is Jesus so different and so unique from all of human history?

Perhaps the closest we have to Jesus in the modern world is Ghandi, and yet on many different levels he is a very poor comparison. Jesus teaching is farm more impactful, and Jesus disciples have transformed this world. Ghandi is clearly a disciple holding on to one verse (promise) from Jesus.
Oh I see you have a "my idea of Jesus" too. Cool bro. How postmodern of you.
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Old 08-14-2017, 02:56 PM   #1083
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I understand. It would be a challenge to your faith to look at serious historical research on Jesus which you have mischaracterized above. Better to bow out.
While I am still bowing out, I find it troubling that you can refer to the following as a "serious historical research."

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The canonical gospels downplay the probable fact that before John's death, Jesus was his disciple. The fact that John baptized Jesus was a source of embarrassment because it implies that Jesus recognized John's spiritual superiority at that stage of his life, and that Jesus needed to repent. Nevertheless, in John Jesus seems to have found the strong male father figure that he needed to overcome the absence of a father when he was growing up.
What made this analysis serious? Was it ignored for 2,000 years? Or was it actually around in the early days? Is it more than a conjecture based on an assumption that the leader would baptize the follower? Is there something that makes this so? My understanding is that other than John's appearance here, the Jewish idea of baptism included simply walking into the water on your own. Was John's baptism different or the same. If the same, was the person performing the baptism presumed to have authority over, or merely the assigned task of performing the baptism (or something in between)?

You've spoken as if the statements are historical or cultural facts. Is that so, or merely suggested by some writer? The book I read would have said it as if it was an established fact, but if you read the "credits" it is clear that they have nothing substantial supporting any of their statements. It is best described as a work of fiction presented as counter-point to what they think of as another work of fiction (the Bible).

If it is true that both are fiction, then it would be entertaining. But whether or not the Bible is fiction, if theirs is admittedly fiction, then it is of no value in determining the veracity of the Bible. Just a work of fiction cloaked in the trappings of a scholarly work.
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Old 08-14-2017, 05:01 PM   #1084
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While I am still bowing out, I find it troubling that you can refer to the following as a "serious historical research."
Don't bow out, you are adding a lot to the discussion.
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Old 08-15-2017, 06:22 AM   #1085
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While I am still bowing out, I find it troubling that you can refer to the following as a "serious historical research."

What made this analysis serious? Was it ignored for 2,000 years? Or was it actually around in the early days? Is it more than a conjecture based on an assumption that the leader would baptize the follower? Is there something that makes this so? My understanding is that other than John's appearance here, the Jewish idea of baptism included simply walking into the water on your own. Was John's baptism different or the same. If the same, was the person performing the baptism presumed to have authority over, or merely the assigned task of performing the baptism (or something in between)?

You've spoken as if the statements are historical or cultural facts. Is that so, or merely suggested by some writer? The book I read would have said it as if it was an established fact, but if you read the "credits" it is clear that they have nothing substantial supporting any of their statements. It is best described as a work of fiction presented as counter-point to what they think of as another work of fiction (the Bible).

If it is true that both are fiction, then it would be entertaining. But whether or not the Bible is fiction, if theirs is admittedly fiction, then it is of no value in determining the veracity of the Bible. Just a work of fiction cloaked in the trappings of a scholarly work.

I don't know what book you read so it would be presumptuous for me to take a position on it.
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Old 08-15-2017, 07:56 AM   #1086
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I watch the news about this rally in NC, you have people protesting the removal of a statue for Robert E Lee, perhaps the greatest American general in our history (and yet what a very poor comparison this "great" general would make to Jesus), and you have anti protesters protesting the rally.
Congratulations man! A guy who like you thinks that Confederate General Lee was a great American struck a blow for the cause by killing a young woman and injuring 19 others.
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Old 08-15-2017, 08:07 AM   #1087
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Congratulations man! A guy who like you thinks that Confederate General Lee was a great American struck a blow for the cause by killing a young woman and injuring 19 others.
I did not say "Great American" I said "great American general". There are perhaps 5 or 6 to choose from -- Washington, USS Grant, Patton, Macarthur, Eisenhower, and Robert E Lee.

Compared to Washington that is the toughest comparison because both were on the side that was at a decided disadvantage. Washington was brilliant at holding everything together as was Robert E Lee. However, Lee did much better on his battles and showed greater strategic brilliance. If you include his presidency then I think Washington wins hands down, but I said "greatest American general" so that was not part of the consideration.

USS Grant is, in my opinion, greatly underrated. That said I don't think anyone would rank him higher than Robert E. Lee.

So that leaves MacArthur who captured more territory with less loss of life than any general in history, he had magnificent victories like the the landing at Inchon. If you rank MacArthur higher than Robert E Lee I could see that. However, there were a number of negatives on Mac that we don't need to hash out here.

I consider Eisenhower a great general who showed the administrative side of the post, something that both Mac and Patton were severely lacking on. However Washington and Robert E Lee had to have this skill set as well.

Patton is a darling among some but there is no way I rank him higher than Robert E Lee.

Winfield Scott has some things going for him, but hey his big war was the war of 1812, hardly the crucible that the Civil war or Revolutionary war were.

I suppose you could give Pershing an honorable mention for his WWI performance. Perhaps you could bump him past Patton, but that is it for me.

14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbor’s landmark, which they of old time have set, in thine inheritance which thou shalt inherit, in the land that Jehovah thy God giveth thee to possess it.

I have no problem with those who do not want to remove the statue of Robert E Lee. What was his crime, he was a slaveholder? So was Washington, Jefferson, etc. Shall we remove the Washington Monument, etc?

I find it insulting that you are comparing a deranged man who ran his car into a group of people as "a guy who is like me". I did not think you could stoop so low, but I guess I should add this to your greatest hits. Maybe it can be a double album.
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Old 08-15-2017, 08:30 AM   #1088
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I did not say "Great American" I said "great American general". There are perhaps 5 or 6 to choose from -- Washington, USS Grant, Patton, Macarthur, Eisenhower, and Robert E Lee.

Compared to Washington that is the toughest comparison because both were on the side that was at a decided disadvantage. Washington was brilliant at holding everything together as was Robert E Lee. However, Lee did much better on his battles and showed greater strategic brilliance. If you include his presidency then I think Washington wins hands down, but I said "greatest American general" so that was not part of the consideration.

USS Grant is, in my opinion, greatly underrated. That said I don't think anyone would rank him higher than Robert E. Lee.

So that leaves MacArthur who captured more territory with less loss of life than any general in history, he had magnificent victories like the the landing at Inchon. If you rank MacArthur higher than Robert E Lee I could see that. However, there were a number of negatives on Mac that we don't need to hash out here.

I consider Eisenhower a great general who showed the administrative side of the post, something that both Mac and Patton were severely lacking on. However Washington and Robert E Lee had to have this skill set as well.

Patton is a darling among some but there is no way I rank him higher than Robert E Lee.

Winfield Scott has some things going for him, but hey his big war was the war of 1812, hardly the crucible that the Civil war or Revolutionary war were.

I suppose you could give Pershing an honorable mention for his WWI performance. Perhaps you could bump him past Patton, but that is it for me.

14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbor’s landmark, which they of old time have set, in thine inheritance which thou shalt inherit, in the land that Jehovah thy God giveth thee to possess it.

I have no problem with those who do not want to remove the statue of Robert E Lee. What was his crime, he was a slaveholder? So was Washington, Jefferson, etc. Shall we remove the Washington Monument, etc?

I find it insulting that you are comparing a deranged man who ran his car into a group of people as "a guy who is like me". I did not think you could stoop so low, but I guess I should add this to your greatest hits. Maybe it can be a double album.
Lee distinguished himself as a Confederate general fighting against the United States. He was a great American traitor.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:21 AM   #1089
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Lee distinguished himself as a Confederate general fighting against the United States. He was a great American traitor.
With an attitude like that you would make all those who fought for the confederate side "traitors". How then do you view this as the "United" States?

Instead of winners and losers why not just view this as the very difficult process of joining two groups together?

People had a very difficult choice to make. The place they lived in was going to war, do you pack up and head north? Might get lynched as a "traitor". What about your family, what if they won't move? It seems very judgmental on your part.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:33 AM   #1090
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With an attitude like that you would make all those who fought for the confederate side "traitors". How then do you view this as the "United" States?

Instead of winners and losers why not just view this as the very difficult process of joining two groups together?

People had a very difficult choice to make. The place they lived in was going to war, do you pack up and head north? Might get lynched as a "traitor". What about your family, what if they won't move? It seems very judgmental on your part.
Yeah. It's my judgment based on the facts. The confederates were traitors. It's just opinion. That's all I take your comments to be---your opinions. Like your defense of slavery on this forum. Just another one of your opinion with which I disagree strongly.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:57 AM   #1091
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With an attitude like that you would make all those who fought for the confederate side "traitors". How then do you view this as the "United" States?

Instead of winners and losers why not just view this as the very difficult process of joining two groups together?

People had a very difficult choice to make. The place they lived in was going to war, do you pack up and head north? Might get lynched as a "traitor". What about your family, what if they won't move? It seems very judgmental on your part.
Yet, many progressives join themselves to other liberal causes and protesters, who today revere murderers like Fidel Castro and Che Guevara.

History tells us the South initially was fighting a war over states' rights. Lincoln used the issue of slavery to "sell" the war. D'Souza's recent documentary "Hillary's America" brought out the facts that it was the Democrats both in the North and in the South that worked to perpetuate slavery. It was Lincoln's newly formed Republican Party which worked to end slavery.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:50 AM   #1092
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I did not say "Great American" I said "great American general".
Then you should say he was a great Confederate general. Else you risk saying Lee was a great American.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:41 PM   #1093
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Then you should say he was a great Confederate general. Else you risk saying Lee was a great American.
How can a "great American general" not be a great American? ZNP knows.
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Old 08-15-2017, 12:55 PM   #1094
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I did not say "Great American" I said "great American general".
I see the PC Nazis busted you big time for this comment.
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Old 08-15-2017, 02:59 PM   #1095
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I see the PC Nazis busted you big time for this comment.
Haha .... .... haha .... ....Haha ....
Good zinger bro.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:12 PM   #1096
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How can a "great American general" not be a great American? ZNP knows.
A great American General is a great general who is an American. Under that criteria Robert E Lee clearly qualifies.

A great American is someone who has made a major contribution to America. George Washington, Thomas Edison, Martin Luther King Jr, Jerry Rice, these could all be considered great Americans. But in this case the fact that Robert E Lee was fighting for the confederacy is a major negative. Matt 18 answers the question "who is the greatest in the kingdom", in this chapter the Lord says "7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!". It was necessary for the development of America that we had a civil war, but woe to that man by whom the civil war came.

For example: Bernie Madoff is a great American con man. That does not make him a great American.

This is my judgement. But for those that feel Robert E Lee is part of their heritage, a landmark of their past, I think they have the right to not want the statue removed.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:52 PM   #1097
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A great American General is a great general who is an American. Under that criteria Robert E Lee clearly qualifies.

A great American is someone who has made a major contribution to America. George Washington, Thomas Edison, Martin Luther King Jr, Jerry Rice, these could all be considered great Americans. But in this case the fact that Robert E Lee was fighting for the confederacy is a major negative. Matt 18 answers the question "who is the greatest in the kingdom", in this chapter the Lord says "7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!". It was necessary for the development of America that we had a civil war, but woe to that man by whom the civil war came.

For example: Bernie Madoff is a great American con man. That does not make him a great American.

This is my judgement. But for those that feel Robert E Lee is part of their heritage, a landmark of their past, I think they have the right to not want the statue removed.
Thank you for clarifying your position, ZNP. It's like the Time Magazine man of the year. Moral judgement denied. On your last point, I agree. But, no less are those that feel that a monument {not just a statue} to Robert E. Lee is an offence to their civil rights, prohibited from expressing their opinion on the issue. Therein lies the conflict that was played out on the streets of Charlottesville.

Now, President Trump in yesterday's press conference has clarified where he stands. When he condemned white supremacy he was merely bowing to political correctness. He really believes that the white supremacists, Neo-Nazis and KKK included, have a valid point. He is more concerned about limiting the efforts of what he has now labelled the "alt left" in their mission of devaluing the racial bigotry of America's past. "You know, you really do have to ask yourself, where does it stop?" This is the most encouragement that the white supremacists have received from an American president in my 67 years. I expect them to try to seize this moment of political opportunity with more violent demonstrations. Don't you?
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Old 08-16-2017, 06:23 AM   #1098
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"You know, you really do have to ask yourself, where does it stop?" This is the most encouragement that the white supremacists have received from an American president in my 67 years. I expect them to try to seize this moment of political opportunity with more violent demonstrations. Don't you?
I can't answer this question until I understand where this all began. I did a quick google search, the estimate of KKK members in the US today is 0.003% of the US population. This is a completely insignificant group politically. So then why did they get front page news for a week? If you watch the news it is very clear that although the vast majority of people are condemning this group, there are a percentage of people who are blaming the antifa group in part. Even if only 3% of the US population sympathizes with this group being "unfairly treated" that is a huge, huge increase to their group.

In my opinion the best strategy is to ignore them. Allow them to march if they have a permit. If they violate laws, prosecute them. But no press, no anti rallies, treat them as being completely insignificant.

But is that what is happening? No, the rallies double in size because of these anti protesters. Because their fights, bats, and mentally unstable people with a car it gets major news play all the way up to the President of the US. To make things worse their permit was cancelled, and numerous companies have pulled their websites. This strategy is turning them into martyrs, whose right to "free speech" is being denied. This is going to be every bit as effective for their recruiting effort as we saw with ISIS.

This strategy will force them to commit acts of terrorism to "get their message across". I see the purpose of the right to free speech as making this path unnecessary.

IMO two weeks ago I did not view KKK and white supremacists as a major issue in the US. Now, about a week later the question is "where is this going to go?" as though this is now as big a concern as ISIS and N. Korea. I blame the press for turning this insignificant group into a major concern and worry. The press no longer acts responsibly, their only concern is how many viewers can I get, and nothing causes people to watch like the threat of imminent destruction.
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Old 08-16-2017, 07:49 AM   #1099
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I can't answer this question until I understand where this all began. I did a quick google search, the estimate of KKK members in the US today is 0.003% of the US population. This is a completely insignificant group politically. So then why did they get front page news for a week? If you watch the news it is very clear that although the vast majority of people are condemning this group, there are a percentage of people who are blaming the antifa group in part. Even if only 3% of the US population sympathizes with this group being "unfairly treated" that is a huge, huge increase to their group.

In my opinion the best strategy is to ignore them. Allow them to march if they have a permit. If they violate laws, prosecute them. But no press, no anti rallies, treat them as being completely insignificant.

But is that what is happening? No, the rallies double in size because of these anti protesters. Because their fights, bats, and mentally unstable people with a car it gets major news play all the way up to the President of the US. To make things worse their permit was cancelled, and numerous companies have pulled their websites. This strategy is turning them into martyrs, whose right to "free speech" is being denied. This is going to be every bit as effective for their recruiting effort as we saw with ISIS.

This strategy will force them to commit acts of terrorism to "get their message across". I see the purpose of the right to free speech as making this path unnecessary.

IMO two weeks ago I did not view KKK and white supremacists as a major issue in the US. Now, about a week later the question is "where is this going to go?" as though this is now as big a concern as ISIS and N. Korea. I blame the press for turning this insignificant group into a major concern and worry. The press no longer acts responsibly, their only concern is how many viewers can I get, and nothing causes people to watch like the threat of imminent destruction.
Like Heather Heyer said in her last post on Facebook "If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention." Your response is the standard "shoot the messenger" variety. White supremacists have gained ground because Trump encouraged them during his campaign. He has brought them with him into the mainstream. In his news conference yesterday he gave them another boost by equating them with those who oppose them. I expect to many more of their violent demonstrations around the country in the coming weeks.
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:49 AM   #1100
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Like Heather Heyer said in her last post on Facebook "If you’re not outraged, you’re not paying attention." Your response is the standard "shoot the messenger" variety. White supremacists have gained ground because Trump encouraged them during his campaign. He has brought them with him into the mainstream. In his news conference yesterday he gave them another boost by equating them with those who oppose them. I expect to many more of their violent demonstrations around the country in the coming weeks.
The wrath of man does not work the righteousness of God.

Malcolm X is a good example of someone who learned this lesson.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:31 AM   #1101
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Thank you for clarifying your position, ZNP. It's like the Time Magazine man of the year. Moral judgement denied. On your last point, I agree. But, no less are those that feel that a monument {not just a statue} to Robert E. Lee is an offence to their civil rights, prohibited from expressing their opinion on the issue. Therein lies the conflict that was played out on the streets of Charlottesville.

Now, President Trump in yesterday's press conference has clarified where he stands. When he condemned white supremacy he was merely bowing to political correctness. He really believes that the white supremacists, Neo-Nazis and KKK included, have a valid point. He is more concerned about limiting the efforts of what he has now labelled the "alt left" in their mission of devaluing the racial bigotry of America's past. "You know, you really do have to ask yourself, where does it stop?" This is the most encouragement that the white supremacists have received from an American president in my 67 years. I expect them to try to seize this moment of political opportunity with more violent demonstrations. Don't you?
I think Trump should do a swap with Syria. Accept Christian Syrian refugees, and send the supremacists to Syria to help the Coptic Christians.
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Old 08-17-2017, 04:53 AM   #1102
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A great American General is a great general who is an American. Under that criteria Robert E Lee clearly qualifies.
I don't agree with this and it is not according to historical facts. Lee was not an American general at all but stood for forming a separate country to the United States of America.

America, as I see it, is the United States of America. The only way Lee was "American" is in the sense of being part of the American continent.

The USA was the Union during the Civil war period, they won, and today all of the states are part of the USA.

Remember that the "Confederate States of America" were seeking to form a separate country from the United States of America. Had they succeeded, then the continent of America today might be two different countries - the USA in the North and the "Confederate States of America" (CSA) in the South.

For these reasons I believe any Confederate General was not an American (i.e. USA), not then, and not now. Nor do I believe that the Confederate flag is an American (i.e. USA) flag.

Therefore it is only right that the American people treat this foreign flag (which only came into resurgence in modern times), and General Lee as a general of a foreign country.

If Trump is so concerned about foreigners in the country he should also take care of the foreigners which feel themselves to be part of the foreign Confederate States of America.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:08 AM   #1103
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I think Trump should do a swap with Syria. Accept Christian Syrian refugees, and send the supremacists to Syria to help the Coptic Christians.
So you think the President of the US has the right to deport any US citizen he wishes?

He received a lot of flack for pushing to deport illegal aliens, but this is far more expansive. Are you the one Awareness was referring to as "the voice of reason"?
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:12 AM   #1104
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I don't agree with this and it is not according to historical facts. Lee was not an American general at all but stood for forming a separate country to the United States of America.

America, as I see it, is the United States of America. The only way Lee was "American" is in the sense of being part of the American continent.

The USA was the Union during the Civil war period, they won, and today all of the states are part of the USA.

Remember that the "Confederate States of America" were seeking to form a separate country from the United States of America. Had they succeeded, then the continent of America today might be two different countries - the USA in the North and the "Confederate States of America" (CSA) in the South.

For these reasons I believe any Confederate General was not an American (i.e. USA), not then, and not now. Nor do I believe that the Confederate flag is an American (i.e. USA) flag.

Therefore it is only right that the American people treat this foreign flag (which only came into resurgence in modern times), and General Lee as a general of a foreign country.

If Trump is so concerned about foreigners in the country he should also take care of the foreigners which feel themselves to be part of the foreign Confederate States of America.
Robert E Lee was a natural born US citizen. He went to West Point. He was a general prior to the Civil war and was recruited by the North as well as the South to head their army. If you wish to argue that he later renounced his citizenship that may or may not be true, still it doesn't change the fact that he was an American. Virtually all historians rank Robert E Lee in the top 10 of American generals, and in virtually all rankings they usually put him as #2 behind Washington. However, they are usually including Washington's role as president in that calculation.
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Old 08-17-2017, 06:29 AM   #1105
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Robert E Lee was a natural born US citizen. He went to West Point. He was a general prior to the Civil war and was recruited by the North as well as the South to head their army. If you wish to argue that he later renounced his citizenship that may or may not be true, still it doesn't change the fact that he was an American. Virtually all historians rank Robert E Lee in the top 10 of American generals, and in virtually all rankings they usually put him as #2 behind Washington. However, they are usually including Washington's role as president in that calculation.
If one leaves and fights against their country of birth are they still a citizen of that country? I would say not, as that is effectively renouncing citizenship and could lead to denaturalization. It's just common sense really. In some countries of the world one only needs to live outside their country for a long period of time and they cancel the citizenship. It doesn't matter if they were born there or not.

This is where the constitution is flawed - because it allows people to join a foreign military service and fight against USA and keep their citizenship.

America needs to learn from the UK and other countries where Section 4 of the British Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002[78] gave power to the Home Secretary to ‘deprive a person of a citizenship status if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the person has done anything seriously prejudicial to the vital interests’ of the United Kingdom
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:52 AM   #1106
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Any possibility we can limit the discussion of politics to the political thread? Or has politics swallowed Christianity in the postmodern era?
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:01 AM   #1107
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Any possibility we can limit the discussion of politics to the political thread? Or has politics swallowed Christianity in the postmodern era?
Yes. They can't win spiritually so they're now trying politics. That's why they voted for Trump ... another failure. Christianity is changing shape in the PM era ... and it doesn't look very Jesus like.

But I agree, politics should stay on the Politics thread. For this reason you are a bad boy.
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Old 08-17-2017, 09:30 AM   #1108
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Yes. They can't win spiritually so they're now trying politics. That's why they voted for Trump ... another failure. Christianity is changing shape in the PM era ... and it doesn't look very Jesus like.

But I agree, politics should stay on the Politics thread. For this reason you are a bad boy.
"They"? Looks like you are excluding yourself. ZNP introduced the discussion of events in Charlottesville not me. Anyway the division of Christianity along political lines was already in place before the postmodern turn. It appears to me that greater fragmentation of communities identifying with Christ may be inevitable as fragmentation seems to be what's happening to society in general.
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Old 08-17-2017, 11:43 AM   #1109
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"They"? Looks like you are excluding yourself. ZNP introduced the discussion of events in Charlottesville not me. Anyway the division of Christianity along political lines was already in place before the postmodern turn. It appears to me that greater fragmentation of communities identifying with Christ may be inevitable as fragmentation seems to be what's happening to society in general.
Whoa! I didn't vote for Trump. Also, I was under the impression the world was getting smaller with modern telecommunications, the internet, and other modes of transportation and multinational corporations.
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Old 08-17-2017, 05:43 PM   #1110
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Yes. They can't win spiritually so they're now trying politics. That's why they voted for Trump ... another failure. Christianity is changing shape in the PM era ... and it doesn't look very Jesus like.

But I agree, politics should stay on the Politics thread. For this reason you are a bad boy.
People thought they were voting for a leader. All they got was a guy who likes to "wing it".

"I prefer to come to work each day and just see what develops." ~ Art of the Deal

"Winging it" with a little help from Twitter or Facebook is a very postmodern thing to do.
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Old 08-18-2017, 11:59 AM   #1111
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Whoa! I didn't vote for Trump. Also, I was under the impression the world was getting smaller with modern telecommunications, the internet, and other modes of transportation and multinational corporations.
Where did that come from? I didn't mention Trump. A shrinking world doesn't necessarily eliminate fragmentation. It increases contact between disparate elements. The resulting conflict may intensify social fragmentation, exclusion and polarization. Witness reactions to the 24 hour news cycle.
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Old 08-18-2017, 04:51 PM   #1112
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Where did that come from? I didn't mention Trump. A shrinking world doesn't necessarily eliminate fragmentation. It increases contact between disparate elements. The resulting conflict may intensify social fragmentation, exclusion and polarization. Witness reactions to the 24 hour news cycle.
Evidence?

If human civilization is 6,000 years then the last 300 years represents 5%. In 1817 there was no "public school" as we know it today, instead there were one room school houses akin to private schools. Maybe 20+ kids of all ages. We would consider that incredibly fragmented by today's standards.

I took a road trip from NY to Arizona last summer, that would have been a rarer event 300 years ago.

No phones, no CNN, no internet. Today we can see and visualize many more countries and continents than they could 300 years ago, we can visit them quickly and cheaply by comparison.

I think our level of interconnection is growing, not decreasing. The entire 6 degrees of separation was a powerful demonstration of how interconnected we all are.
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Old 08-18-2017, 05:15 PM   #1113
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14 Thou shalt not remove thy neighbor’s landmark, which they of old time have set, in thine inheritance which thou shalt inherit, in the land that Jehovah thy God giveth thee to possess it.
I will mostly stay out of this latest variation of the topic.

Except to say that you constantly find novel ways to misuse the words of scripture. That verse is talking about boundary markers, not statues and such. Like tearing down a fence between the property of two individuals by one with the intent of obscuring the line of demarcation and slowly taking over the other's land.

It has absolutely nothing to do with "landmarks" in the sense of notable features, statues, memorials, etc.
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Old 08-19-2017, 04:32 AM   #1114
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I will mostly stay out of this latest variation of the topic.

Except to say that you constantly find novel ways to misuse the words of scripture. That verse is talking about boundary markers, not statues and such. Like tearing down a fence between the property of two individuals by one with the intent of obscuring the line of demarcation and slowly taking over the other's land.

It has absolutely nothing to do with "landmarks" in the sense of notable features, statues, memorials, etc.
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(14) Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour’s landmark.—Another law manifestly appropriate here, where it appears for the first time, like the “field” in the tenth commandment (Deuteronomy 5:21). But the immediate connection is not obvious. Perhaps the idea is to caution the people to avoid a most certain incentive to hatred and murder. Ancient landmarks are also important and almost sacred witnesses.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Landmark, whereby the lands of several possessors were distinguished and divided. Do not enrich thyself with the injury of other men; do not invade the rights of others.

Gill’s Commentary
Some apply this, in a political sense, to laws of long standing, and customs of long prescription; and others interpret it, in a theological sense, of doctrines and practices settled by the fathers of the church; which, if understood of Christ and his apostles only, will be allowed; but if of the ancient fathers of the church that followed them, it should not be received; since they were but fallible men, and guilty of many errors and mistakes, both in doctrine and practice.

It is a felony to rip down one of these statues. They cost tens of thousands of dollars. There is a legal procedure that can be done to remove a statue and that political process was what was taking place in NC.

How is this hard for you to understand? People spent tens of thousands of dollars to put up a statue, it is wrong for a mob to tear it down. It is hateful and an invasion of the rights of others. If it is offensive to 51% of the population then vote and remove it legally.

Second, if you remove these things by mobs tearing them down you make things worse, not better. You think doing that will cause the 0.003% of the US population involved in these groups to say "oh, guess we were wrong"? This will only cause them to become angrier and more belligerent. MLK said that the civil rights movement was not a battle between black and white but a battle between justice and injustice. You cannot fight this battle by being unjust.

Third, what is very clear is that these are "your neighbor's statues", not yours. You do not have the right to tear down your neighbors statue. That is the point. It is not simply an OT law, it is also a law that is currently on the books in the US. Statues are being ripped down by mobs and vandalized by mobs, and then others are being removed by the city to protect them from the mobs.

Finally, why is it that we went years and years with very little regard for these fringe groups, during Obama's 8 years all those statues didn't offend anyone? But now all of a sudden some stupid rally in NC over a stupid city referendum about removing one statue has to completely dominate the news for weeks? Why? Because Antifa fought with this group in the street and got their rally cancelled instead of just voting to remove the statue! Is it really crazy to think this is manipulative BS?

So to try and tie this into this thread -- doesn't this event disprove the idea that society is more fragmented today? If this had been 300 years ago would it have been possible for the entire country and even the rest of the world to be watching, commenting, and criticizing what went on in NC?
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Old 08-19-2017, 07:37 AM   #1115
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Goodness bro ZNP, be like Trump and double down.

What about not making idols?

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(14) Thou shalt not remove thy neighbour’s landmark.—Another law manifestly appropriate here, where it appears for the first time, like the “field” in the tenth commandment (Deuteronomy 5:21). But the immediate connection is not obvious. Perhaps the idea is to caution the people to avoid a most certain incentive to hatred and murder. Ancient landmarks are also important and almost sacred witnesses.

Matthew Poole's Commentary
Landmark, whereby the lands of several possessors were distinguished and divided. Do not enrich thyself with the injury of other men; do not invade the rights of others.

Gill’s Commentary
Some apply this, in a political sense, to laws of long standing, and customs of long prescription; and others interpret it, in a theological sense, of doctrines and practices settled by the fathers of the church; which, if understood of Christ and his apostles only, will be allowed; but if of the ancient fathers of the church that followed them, it should not be received; since they were but fallible men, and guilty of many errors and mistakes, both in doctrine and practice.

It is a felony to rip down one of these statues. They cost tens of thousands of dollars. There is a legal procedure that can be done to remove a statue and that political process was what was taking place in NC.

How is this hard for you to understand? People spent tens of thousands of dollars to put up a statue, it is wrong for a mob to tear it down. It is hateful and an invasion of the rights of others. If it is offensive to 51% of the population then vote and remove it legally.

Second, if you remove these things by mobs tearing them down you make things worse, not better. You think doing that will cause the 0.003% of the US population involved in these groups to say "oh, guess we were wrong"? This will only cause them to become angrier and more belligerent. MLK said that the civil rights movement was not a battle between black and white but a battle between justice and injustice. You cannot fight this battle by being unjust.

Third, what is very clear is that these are "your neighbor's statues", not yours. You do not have the right to tear down your neighbors statue. That is the point. It is not simply an OT law, it is also a law that is currently on the books in the US. Statues are being ripped down by mobs and vandalized by mobs, and then others are being removed by the city to protect them from the mobs.

Finally, why is it that we went years and years with very little regard for these fringe groups, during Obama's 8 years all those statues didn't offend anyone? But now all of a sudden some stupid rally in NC over a stupid city referendum about removing one statue has to completely dominate the news for weeks? Why? Because Antifa fought with this group in the street and got their rally cancelled instead of just voting to remove the statue! Is it really crazy to think this is manipulative BS?

So to try and tie this into this thread -- doesn't this event disprove the idea that society is more fragmented today? If this had been 300 years ago would it have been possible for the entire country and even the rest of the world to be watching, commenting, and criticizing what went on in NC?
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Old 08-19-2017, 08:12 AM   #1116
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Goodness bro ZNP, be like Trump and double down.

What about not making idols?

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Didn't you hear the Supreme court -- Some of the ten commandments are OK, some aren't.

The US has no laws concerning statues being illegal. The discussion on other threads was about the mobs tearing down and vandalizing statues.

"It isn't the things we don't know that get us in trouble, it's the things we know for sure that just aren't so that get us in trouble"
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:10 AM   #1117
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Didn't you hear the Supreme court -- Some of the ten commandments are OK, some aren't.

The US has no laws concerning statues being illegal. The discussion on other threads was about the mobs tearing down and vandalizing statues.

"It isn't the things we don't know that get us in trouble, it's the things we know for sure that just aren't so that get us in trouble"
Ha ha. I see you are relentless. You were making a Biblical point about landmarks, when the Bible in the 10 comments speaks outright against making idols of any kind.

Okay, according to your point, we're witnessing another contradiction in the Bible. Right? Time to triple down.
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:03 PM   #1118
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Ha ha. I see you are relentless. You were making a Biblical point about landmarks, when the Bible in the 10 comments speaks outright against making idols of any kind.

Okay, according to your point, we're witnessing another contradiction in the Bible. Right? Time to triple down.
The commandment about Landmarks, as OBW pointed out, were property markers.

However, as one of the commentators pointed out that is interpreted allegorically for the NT.

In addition, these property markers are made by ancestors and neighbors, not necessarily Jews. In this sense you are literally "overstepping your bounds" when you move or remove your neighbors landmark.

As one commentator pointed out this is a prohibition against hatred, the confederates were defeated, but that isn't enough for some, they want to take away the landmarks for the key battles, key leaders of these people.

These landmarks are considered a "witness" to what happened.
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Old 08-19-2017, 09:44 PM   #1119
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The commandment about Landmarks, as OBW pointed out, were property markers.

However, as one of the commentators pointed out that is interpreted allegorically for the NT.

In addition, these property markers are made by ancestors and neighbors, not necessarily Jews. In this sense you are literally "overstepping your bounds" when you move or remove your neighbors landmark.

As one commentator pointed out this is a prohibition against hatred, the confederates were defeated, but that isn't enough for some, they want to take away the landmarks for the key battles, key leaders of these people.

These landmarks are considered a "witness" to what happened.
That's was a good one. I move for a quadrupedal down. Can I get a second?
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:09 PM   #1120
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Evidence?
http://siteresources.worldbank.org/I...187705/ch6.pdf

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If human civilization is 6,000 years then the last 300 years represents 5%. In 1817 there was no "public school" as we know it today, instead there were one room school houses akin to private schools. Maybe 20+ kids of all ages. We would consider that incredibly fragmented by today's standards.

I took a road trip from NY to Arizona last summer, that would have been a rarer event 300 years ago.

No phones, no CNN, no internet. Today we can see and visualize many more countries and continents than they could 300 years ago, we can visit them quickly and cheaply by comparison.

I think our level of interconnection is growing, not decreasing. The entire 6 degrees of separation was a powerful demonstration of how interconnected we all are.
Interconnection and fragmentation have a complex relationship. https://books.google.com/books?id=Nh...ion%3F&f=false



Fragmentation hinders elected officials from getting anything constructive done in our nation.
Quote:
Regrettably, fragmented thinking in metropolitan Washington, reinforced by fragmented government, is a major obstacle to comprehending and dealing with infrastructure, so much of which is failing, obsolete, inequitably distributed and potentially dangerous. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/reale...=.87ebf921b078


It even effects the Internet http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_FII...rview_2016.pdf
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Old 08-19-2017, 11:31 PM   #1121
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The commandment about Landmarks, as OBW pointed out, were property markers.

However, as one of the commentators pointed out that is interpreted allegorically for the NT.

In addition, these property markers are made by ancestors and neighbors, not necessarily Jews. In this sense you are literally "overstepping your bounds" when you move or remove your neighbors landmark.

As one commentator pointed out this is a prohibition against hatred, the confederates were defeated, but that isn't enough for some, they want to take away the landmarks for the key battles, key leaders of these people.

These landmarks are considered a "witness" to what happened.
I don't think you want to follow the Hebrew Bible's prescription for dealing with a vanquished enemy's idols.

Quote:
Numbers 33:52 then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their idols, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places.
Quote:
Isaiah 2:18 and the idols He shall utterly abolish.
Ezekiel 30:13 “‘Thus saith the Lord God: I will also destroy the idols, and I will cause their images to cease out of Noph;

What about the Confederacy's answer to Mount Rushmore at Stone Mountain, GA? https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/will-...n-be-removed/#
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Old 08-20-2017, 06:16 AM   #1122
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I don't think you want to follow the Hebrew Bible's prescription for dealing with a vanquished enemy's idols.





Ezekiel 30:13 “‘Thus saith the Lord God: I will also destroy the idols, and I will cause their images to cease out of Noph;

What about the Confederacy's answer to Mount Rushmore at Stone Mountain, GA? https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/will-...n-be-removed/#
Hitler was an idol -- crush him.

Lenin was an idol -- crush him.

Caesar was an idol -- crush him.
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Old 08-20-2017, 01:34 PM   #1123
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Hitler was an idol -- crush him.

Lenin was an idol -- crush him.

Caesar was an idol -- crush him.
But don't crush Cherubim idols. God loves Cherubim idols, and commands them on the Ark of the Covenant, and in the inner most of Solomon's temple. I Kings 6:23 ; Exo 25:18

God just hates other peoples' idols.

Duh, monotheism started that way when a king in Egypt first thought of it. He had all the idols and temples of all the other gods destroyed. That's the way monotheism operates. It has to, to validate the ultimate divinity.

And it says God made us in his image. We're walking idols made by God.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:04 PM   #1124
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Hitler was an idol -- crush him.

Lenin was an idol -- crush him.

Caesar was an idol -- crush him.
The idols in question are not men but the monuments erected and placed in their honor. You're trying to change the subject.
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Old 08-21-2017, 11:07 PM   #1125
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But don't crush Cherubim idols. God loves Cherubim idols, and commands them on the Ark of the Covenant, and in the inner most of Solomon's temple. I Kings 6:23 ; Exo 25:18

God just hates other peoples' idols.

Duh, monotheism started that way when a king in Egypt first thought of it. He had all the idols and temples of all the other gods destroyed. That's the way monotheism operates. It has to, to validate the ultimate divinity.

And it says God made us in his image. We're walking idols made by God.
We were discussing Confederate monuments. You took ZNP's diversionary bait and ran off with it into your own anti-religion obsessions.
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Old 08-22-2017, 05:35 AM   #1126
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The idols in question are not men but the monuments erected and placed in their honor. You're trying to change the subject.
Obviously you have not followed the discussion. I answered this simply -- the US is not a theocracy, they don't follow the Bible. I have not advocated building any statue. What I have advocated from the first post is to act in a way that is righteous. As you can see any monument that is an idol is causing trouble. Look at these protests, riots, etc. In NYC they are talking about removing the troublesome monuments like the statue of Columbus in the center of Columbus square.

But you can be sure this will work both ways.
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Old 08-22-2017, 07:07 AM   #1127
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We were discussing Confederate monuments. You took ZNP's diversionary bait and ran off with it into your own anti-religion obsessions.
Yes I did. I ran with ZNP's goofy reply. I took goofy to its logical, or illogical, conclusion.

You are right. Why bring God and His likes and dislikes of idols into this discussion of confederate abominations? Why bring in Hitler, Lenin, and Caesar into this discussion? Sure there were statues to them. But were they confederates?

I guess a point could be made that their statues were taken down and history wasn't erased.

Was that what you were getting at bro ZNP?

And finally. Talk about goofy. Why isn't this confederate statue thing on the political thread?
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:19 AM   #1128
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Obviously you have not followed the discussion. I answered this simply -- the US is not a theocracy, they don't follow the Bible.
"They"? Why not "we"? Have you seceded from the US?
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:30 AM   #1129
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Yes I did. I ran with ZNP's goofy reply. I took goofy to its logical, or illogical, conclusion.

You are right. Why bring God and His likes and dislikes of idols into this discussion of confederate abominations? Why bring in Hitler, Lenin, and Caesar into this discussion? Sure there were statues to them. But were they confederates?

I guess a point could be made that their statues were taken down and history wasn't erased.

Was that what you were getting at bro ZNP?

And finally. Talk about goofy. Why isn't this confederate statue thing on the political thread?
In the wake of Trump's mishandling of White Supremacist violence in Charlottesville, politics momentarily eclipsed rational discourse like the moon eclipsed the sun yesterday. I tried to contextualize discussion of current events in terms of the concept of social fragmentation, which is a significant postmodern problem, but my comments were ignored.
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Old 08-22-2017, 09:55 AM   #1130
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In the 21st century we live in a complex, fast changing world. The experience of each new generation differs radically from that of previous ones. Changes which took centuries to evolve now occur in the space of a few years. Constant change makes people feel insecure. Traditions which spanned many lifetimes become obsolete. Growing numbers of people have become disoriented and alienated from modern life. Stability has disappeared. Like other traditional institutions, Christianity has been rocked by this postmodern situation. As this forum has amply demonstrated, it has become fragmented to its core, divided against itself and eclipsed by politics. Can Christianity survive and if so, how?
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:49 PM   #1131
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"They"? Why not "we"? Have you seceded from the US?
The US is a republic, it is majority rule. I follow the Bible, but the law I adhere to is not the law that the US adheres to. Many things that are OK in the US are not OK in the Bible.

What we are seeing in Charleston and around the country is the fruit of doing things that are not OK.

But when we look at a statue of a man and say this man is not worthy to have a statue, where will that end? What man is worthy?
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Old 08-22-2017, 01:56 PM   #1132
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In the 21st century we live in a complex, fast changing world. The experience of each new generation differs radically from that of previous ones. Changes which took centuries to evolve now occur in the space of a few years. Constant change makes people feel insecure. Traditions which spanned many lifetimes become obsolete. Growing numbers of people have become disoriented and alienated from modern life. Stability has disappeared. Like other traditional institutions, Christianity has been rocked by this postmodern situation. As this forum has amply demonstrated, it has become fragmented to its core, divided against itself and eclipsed by politics. Can Christianity survive and if so, how?
What has changed? Jesus is still Lord. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Sin is still sin. The wages of sin are still death.

Religion may have been rocked, but faith, hope and love have not been moved.

Who cares if Christianity (the religion) survives.

If Christ is "eclipsed" by politics, then it indicates that Jesus (like the Sun) is the source of life and that some small satellite orbiting your life has temporarily blocked the light of life.
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Old 08-23-2017, 10:25 AM   #1133
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What has changed? Jesus is still Lord. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Sin is still sin. The wages of sin are still death.

Religion may have been rocked, but faith, hope and love have not been moved.

Who cares if Christianity (the religion) survives.

If Christ is "eclipsed" by politics, then it indicates that Jesus (like the Sun) is the source of life and that some small satellite orbiting your life has temporarily blocked the light of life.
"Who cares?" you ask. So as long as you can believe Christ is in his heavenly kingdom, you're indifferent to what happens on earth. How different your faith is from that of Jesus who taught us to pray "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven."
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:34 PM   #1134
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"Who cares?" you ask. So as long as you can believe Christ is in his heavenly kingdom, you're indifferent to what happens on earth. How different your faith is from that of Jesus who taught us to pray "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven."
You are mixing apples and oranges. I am not indifferent to what is happening. I am not indifferent to Climate change, or fraud, or corruption, or greed, or selfishness or idolatry.

3 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.

Back when everyone was screaming to go to war in Iraq I was saying that we would be better off spending the money on becoming self sufficient in energy so that we don't need their oil (it was a possibility once you realize we were going to spend $6 trillion on this war and the only possible benefit we have gotten from it is a continued flow of oil and gas from the region). Had we done that there would be no ISIS today, we still would have killed Osama, we would be self sufficient in energy and it would be much cleaner than our current energy, our population would be healthier (making the health care crisis not as severe), and since it would be a domestic industry we would have dramatically decreased our trade deficit and therefore our national debt would not be nearly as severe (even though in each scenario the US spends $6 trillion, in my scenario the money spent pays a yearly dividend in energy, it creates a domestic industry and jobs all of which pay taxes, and it creates a technologically advanced industry that could increase our exports).
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:00 PM   #1135
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You are mixing apples and oranges. I am not indifferent to what is happening. I am not indifferent to Climate change, or fraud, or corruption, or greed, or selfishness or idolatry.

3 But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 5 holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power thereof: from these also turn away.

Back when everyone was screaming to go to war in Iraq I was saying that we would be better off spending the money on becoming self sufficient in energy so that we don't need their oil (it was a possibility once you realize we were going to spend $6 trillion on this war and the only possible benefit we have gotten from it is a continued flow of oil and gas from the region). Had we done that there would be no ISIS today, we still would have killed Osama, we would be self sufficient in energy and it would be much cleaner than our current energy, our population would be healthier (making the health care crisis not as severe), and since it would be a domestic industry we would have dramatically decreased our trade deficit and therefore our national debt would not be nearly as severe (even though in each scenario the US spends $6 trillion, in my scenario the money spent pays a yearly dividend in energy, it creates a domestic industry and jobs all of which pay taxes, and it creates a technologically advanced industry that could increase our exports).
Another tangent. This is not the political thread. We're discussing a different topic here. But, to go back to your starting point: it's always the last days for someone. Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:47 PM   #1136
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In the 21st century we live in a complex, fast changing world. The experience of each new generation differs radically from that of previous ones. Changes which took centuries to evolve now occur in the space of a few years. Constant change makes people feel insecure. Traditions which spanned many lifetimes become obsolete. Growing numbers of people have become disoriented and alienated from modern life. Stability has disappeared. Like other traditional institutions, Christianity has been rocked by this postmodern situation. As this forum has amply demonstrated, it has become fragmented to its core, divided against itself and eclipsed by politics. Can Christianity survive and if so, how?
We ring the bell. You don't need to ask for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee.
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Old 08-23-2017, 09:01 PM   #1137
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What has changed? Jesus is still Lord. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Sin is still sin. The wages of sin are still death.

Religion may have been rocked, but faith, hope and love have not been moved.

Who cares if Christianity (the religion) survives.

If Christ is "eclipsed" by politics, then it indicates that Jesus (like the Sun) is the source of life and that some small satellite orbiting your life has temporarily blocked the light of life.
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Originally Posted by zeek
"Who cares?" you ask. So as long as you can believe Christ is in his heavenly kingdom, you're indifferent to what happens on earth. How different your faith is from that of Jesus who taught us to pray "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven."
To bring this back to postmodernism.

Guys, it's pretty clear that the way to defeat both postmodernism and even modernism, is to hold to the Bible. The Bible never changes.
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:23 AM   #1138
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To bring this back to postmodernism.

Guys, it's pretty clear that the way to defeat both postmodernism and even modernism, is to hold to the Bible. The Bible never changes.
The Bible never changes, but it speaks into culture as it is. It does not need to defeat Postmodernism or Modernism, but change the lives of the people living in either, or what was before all of that, or what will come after.

As the age turned Modern, we tried to make the Bible scientific and provable in those terms. But we failed. We parsed through verses to remove what is still mystery from our belief. We tried to make it absolute in everything according to a modernistic view.

Then as the average person began to see the futility of thinking science was certain — that what we learn through observation is solid and unchangeable. Rather than understand science as a process for learning, it had been too often stated as a means to unchangeable truth. But it failed at that, so many began to reject it altogether.

Now we are in the early stages of a change in mindset. One where "truth" is not so certain. We may have no problem accepting that what the radar gun claims was your speed is true, but if you try to splice truths together into some grand summation of truth, it will be rejected because it needs to be accepted item by item, not as a group.

But the way we tell our story of truth in the Bible is of layer upon layer of factoids gleaned from the nuances of words. The Bible is not a lengthy revelation of God, but a talisman of infinite wisdom to be consulted for detailed answers to Modern or Postmodern questions. Surely there are such answers. But they are not detailed by verse. By jot and tittle. They are in a much simpler narrative:

God
Creator
Son of God (also God)
Born and lived among men
Showed the ways of God

I recognize that I did not include the narratives of the fall and redemption. That was not because of lack of belief in them, but because as important as they are, they are not telling of God, but of man and how God brings man back to where he started.

zeek rightly said that Postmoderns do not adhere to grand narratives. But that refers to a vast collection of "truth" that is wrapped up in a single story. And in the worst of our modernistic views of the Bible, we have wrapped every nuanced rule and rubric into its story and made the reason for the many "books" in the Bible be because there are so many details to describe. But the "grand narrative" of the Bible is not about all those "truths," but instead about a much simpler truth concerning God and man. The story isn't about women as "helpers" or churches by city. It isn't conservatism, or capitalism, or socialism. It is righteousness. It is equal love for fellow man — including those we wouldn't like. Such as Samaritans and Moslems.

The grand narrative of the Bible doesn't have a verse to beat down every opponent, but a story of a God that loves mankind despite the intent of those people to not love in return. It does not have a tailor-made answer for every question, but a single answer for the upheaval that any question brings.

There is more that could be said. But this has been brewing in my mind for some time.

Christianity does not need to fear Postmodernism. Unless it is stuck trying to force its modernistic view of the minute details of its beliefs onto everyone and everything. Always thinking that the right love for "sinners" is "tough love." Be brutally honest about their shortcomings at all times. Never let any of God's love show to the world. Presume that God needs us to judge the wrongdoers. Immediately upon realizing their sin. God may be merciful. But not us.
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Old 08-24-2017, 07:27 PM   #1139
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To bring this back to postmodernism.

Guys, it's pretty clear that the way to defeat both postmodernism and even modernism, is to hold to the Bible. The Bible never changes.
Holding to the bible is a lot easier than holding to something always changing with the wind.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:08 PM   #1140
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Goodness brother, that's a lot to chew on. But it tasted good. Some thoughts :

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The Bible never changes, but it speaks into culture as it is. It does not need to defeat Postmodernism or Modernism, but change the lives of the people living in either, or what was before all of that, or what will come after.
The Bible is a two edged sword. Yes it can change lives, but not always for good. The local church being a prime example.

When I said the Bible doesn't change I mean that it's locked to 2000 yrs ago or older. So like the local church, believers seek to replicate what they see in the Bible. Thus, The Recovery. The Recovery of what? Well the Acts church, that's what. And that's long before modernity, and postmodernity. The Bible is not a modern or PM published work.

In this example the Bible defeats modernity and PM by changing lives to seek to live like they did 2000 yrs ago. Which is impossible. So the Bible in this case changes lives into a delusion ... like Lee's Recovery movement : harking back to the pure church, or the New Testament times. Again, an impossibility.

That the Bible changes lives for the good can sometimes be a judgement call. I have a friend going back to Jr. High. He and a bunch of ne'er-do-well friends of mine, came from Detroit Michigan, and showed up in Santa Cruz, to get me, when I was headed out the door to fly to the church in Detroit. I left them there.

My friend Ronnie met the Lord there, in the church in Santa Cruz. But he didn't stay in the LC for very long. He didn't like that they were claiming to be the one and only true church.

Long story short, Ronnie became a Pentecostal minister. And now when I talk to him he won't shut up about it. He goes on and on about the end times prophecies. I told him he was Bible crazy. He said, thanks. So he's a goner on Jesus, et al.

But before he met the Lord Ronnie was a gallon a day hard liquor alcoholic. So he traded one harmful addiction for a much more harmless addiction. I consider that a good changed life. It probably saved his life.

I loved him before and love him now. He was annoying when he was a drunk, and he's annoying now. That didn't change.

We could say that he was living in the postmodern age, had a conversion experience, and changed to trying to live the Bible that came from the bronze and iron age.

That's the kind of change the Bible often makes. It doesn't change. It changes people into yearning for the New Testament age & earlier.

And that's how it defeats modernity and PM.
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Old 08-24-2017, 09:53 PM   #1141
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Good stuff, brothers.

I just watched a PBS special on the Hubble Space Telescope. It was filled with absolutely amazing pictures, facts, and figures on the universe. Why bring that up here?

At the end of the special it was reported that astrophysicists who have studied and done calculations with Hubble data concluded that when "dark matter" (matter unseen by our telescopes but out there) and "dark energy" (energy unseen by our telescopes but out there) are considered:

The universe ends neither expanding forever or contracting back upon itself in a cosmic "do over". No, it ends in a gigantic fireball, they call "the big rip".

They could have found that answer in 2 Peter 3:10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...3&version=NASB
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Old 08-25-2017, 05:08 AM   #1142
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Life always implies change. A bible that doesn't change is a dead bible. The dead bible is deadly. "...for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." Jesus said "Let the dead bury their dead."
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Old 08-25-2017, 07:41 AM   #1143
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Three different ways of approaching doctrine: the classical-propositional, the experiential-expressive and the cultural-linguistic each have significantly different consequences for Christian belief and practice. https://www.amazon.com/Nature-Doctri...eorge+lindbeck Creedal orthodoxy and fundamentalism are primarily classical-propositional; liberal Christianity-- experiential-expressive; and Po Mo or post-liberal Christianity--cultural-linguistic.
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Old 08-25-2017, 07:56 AM   #1144
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Good stuff, brothers.

I just watched a PBS special on the Hubble Space Telescope. It was filled with absolutely amazing pictures, facts, and figures on the universe. Why bring that up here?

At the end of the special it was reported that astrophysicists who have studied and done calculations with Hubble data concluded that when "dark matter" (matter unseen by our telescopes but out there) and "dark energy" (energy unseen by our telescopes but out there) are considered:

The universe ends neither expanding forever or contracting back upon itself in a cosmic "do over". No, it ends in a gigantic fireball, they call "the big rip".

They could have found that answer in 2 Peter 3:10 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...3&version=NASB
Welcome to the basement of LCD JJ.

Perhaps the scientist are wasting time and money on researching the physical universe ... when they could save all that by studying the Bible.
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Old 08-25-2017, 10:17 PM   #1145
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Welcome to the basement of LCD JJ.

Perhaps the scientist are wasting time and money on researching the physical universe ... when they could save all that by studying the Bible.
Basement? Is this where the party is?

Waste of time and money? Billions of dollars for these cool pictures http://hubblesite.org/images/gallery and fodder for solving long time astrophysical questions about the nature of the universe. Hmmmm.

Ouch as a taxpayer, but geeky fun. Some of us like the Bible and weird stuff like this.
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Old 08-26-2017, 10:16 AM   #1146
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Sorry I crashed your discussions and party here in "the basement", guys.

Hubble pictures reminded me of Psalm 19 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...&version=NASBy
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Old 08-26-2017, 12:31 PM   #1147
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Sorry I crashed your discussions and party here in "the basement", guys.
It's a pleasure. You can crash our party any time.

And btw JJ. Do you think that the Bible, if properly seen and interpreted, would have resulted in the discovery of electricity, refrigeration, air-conditioning, the microwave, and all that we have today, only 1500 yrs ago or so?
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:19 AM   #1148
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Having contrasted modernity and postmodernity and commented that some postmodern movements strike him as dead ends Borg goes on to highlight three characteristics of primary importance for reading the Bible.

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First, postmodernity is marked by the realization that modernity itself is a culturally conditioned, relative historical construction. The modern worldview is not the final word about reality any more than previous worldviews have been. Postmodernity knows that someday the Newtonian worldview will seem as quaint and archaic as the Ptolemaic worldview, a development that has already occurred among theoretical physicists.

Second, postmodernity is marked by a turn to experience. In a time when traditional religious teachings have become suspect, we tend to trust that which can be known in our own experience. This turn to experience is seen in the remarkable resurgence of interest in spirituality within mainline churches and beyond. Spirituality is the experiential dimension of religion.

Third, postmodernity is marked by a movement beyond fact fundamentalism to the realization that stories can be true without being literally and factually true. This development is reflected in much of contemporary theology’s emphasis on metaphorical theology. An obvious point that has often been forgotten during the period of modernity: metaphors and metaphorical narratives can be profoundly true even if they are not literally or factually true.

Borg, Marcus J.. Reading the Bible Again For the First Time (Kindle Locations 286-295). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
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Old 10-12-2017, 11:32 AM   #1149
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Third, postmodernity is marked by a movement beyond fact fundamentalism to the realization that stories can be true without being literally and factually true. This development is reflected in much of contemporary theology’s emphasis on metaphorical theology. An obvious point that has often been forgotten during the period of modernity: metaphors and metaphorical narratives can be profoundly true even if they are not literally or factually true.

Borg, Marcus J.. Reading the Bible Again For the First Time (Kindle Locations 286-295). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
Hence, according to Borg's nonsense, the story of Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead can be metaphorically and profoundly true, even though it is literally or factually false.

And you believe these postmodern lies? That's like believing Harvey Weinstein when he tells us that "Hollywood is America's conscience," and "Hollywood has the best moral compass."
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:03 PM   #1150
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Hence, according to Borg's nonsense, the story of Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead can be metaphorically and profoundly true, even though it is literally or factually false.

And you believe these postmodern lies? That's like believing Harvey Weinstein when he tells us that "Hollywood is America's conscience," and "Hollywood has the best moral compass."
I don't get this line of reasoning. Let's take Noah for example, probably something that he would be looking at as a metaphor. How exactly is it "true" if it is factually false?

Also, when Jesus said that the end of the age would be like the "days of Noah" that also, according to this logic, would be metaphorically true even though it is factually false. How exactly is that? How could the end of the age be "like the days of Noah" if there is no such thing as "the days of Noah"?

I read that as the day Noah heard that the flood would wipe out all the creatures on earth (similar to the day I saw the special on 2 degrees, talking about the cataclysmic changes that will take place on Earth when the average temperature increases by 2 degrees Celsius). The day he began to build the boat (not that different from the day others began to build modern day versions of "arks"), the day the flood came and they entered the ark (maybe we should ask Houstonians, or those in Puerto Rico, or California, or even Las Vegas about that), etc.

This is why I feel this is a lame explanation for how things like the story of Noah's ark could be true even though they don't think it is true. As you can see this is quite a big of a hedge from previous arrogant claims that it was obviously not true. The reason for the big change is that we have accumulated so much evidence that this story must be rooted in fact even though most have not done a great job of explaining how that could be, though the recent discovery of the meteorite craters in the Pacific Ocean and the Chevrons in Madagascar do create a very interesting and plausible explanation for what would otherwise be a totally unbelievable story.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:43 PM   #1151
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I don't get this line of reasoning. Let's take Noah for example, probably something that he would be looking at as a metaphor. How exactly is it "true" if it is factually false?
Those who have lost their faith can still be quite intelligent, yet may not have an ounce of common sense wisdom. They stand for nothing, and will fall for anything.
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:13 PM   #1152
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Hence, according to Borg's nonsense, the story of Jesus Christ dying on the cross and rising from the dead can be metaphorically and profoundly true, even though it is literally or factually false.
What's nonsensical about what Borg says? I think Borg would say that the Jesus crucifixion was a literal fact [death is an everyday matter], but the resurrection, being a spiritual reality must be represented metaphorically or not at all. [note: those are my words not his]

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And you believe these postmodern lies? That's like believing Harvey Weinstein when he tells us that "Hollywood is America's conscience," and "Hollywood has the best moral compass."
Postmodernism doesn't require an up or down vote. It is a characterization of our epistemological situation which is agnostic as far as metaphysics. So, to be accurate, if you can accept or reject that God exists, you can do so on the basis of faith but not knowledge.
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:22 PM   #1153
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I don't get this line of reasoning. Let's take Noah for example, probably something that he would be looking at as a metaphor. How exactly is it "true" if it is factually false?
You're analyzing Ohio's reasoning from Borg's proposition. I don't get Ohio's logic either.

Quote:
Also, when Jesus said that the end of the age would be like the "days of Noah" that also, according to this logic, would be metaphorically true even though it is factually false. How exactly is that? How could the end of the age be "like the days of Noah" if there is no such thing as "the days of Noah"?
Same problem as above. You should have gone back to Borg's proposition, not to the supposition of a person unfamiliar with Borg's thought.

Quote:
I read that as the day Noah heard that the flood would wipe out all the creatures on earth (similar to the day I saw the special on 2 degrees, talking about the cataclysmic changes that will take place on Earth when the average temperature increases by 2 degrees Celsius). The day he began to build the boat (not that different from the day others began to build modern day versions of "arks"), the day the flood came and they entered the ark (maybe we should ask Houstonians, or those in Puerto Rico, or California, or even Las Vegas about that), etc.

This is why I feel this is a lame explanation for how things like the story of Noah's ark could be true even though they don't think it is true. As you can see this is quite a big of a hedge from previous arrogant claims that it was obviously not true. The reason for the big change is that we have accumulated so much evidence that this story must be rooted in fact even though most have not done a great job of explaining how that could be, though the recent discovery of the meteorite craters in the Pacific Ocean and the Chevrons in Madagascar do create a very interesting and plausible explanation for what would otherwise be a totally unbelievable story.
Now you're off on a wild tangent. Have a nice trip.
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Old 10-12-2017, 06:43 PM   #1154
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What's nonsensical about what Borg says? I think Borg would say that the Jesus crucifixion was a literal fact [death is an everyday matter], but the resurrection, being a spiritual reality must be represented metaphorically or not at all. [note: those are my words not his]
You quoted his words so they become your own. Man up.

Romans 10.9 (and numerous other verses) makes it clear that our salvation is contingent upon the belief that the man Jesus Christ was physically and literally raised from the dead. It was neither metaphorical nor physical for Thomas to put his finger in the nail hole wounds of the Savior.
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Postmodernism doesn't require an up or down vote. It is a characterization of our epistemological situation which is agnostic as far as metaphysics. So, to be accurate, if you can accept or reject that God exists, you can do so on the basis of faith but not knowledge.
Faith is the knowledge of the heart, which is far more real and sure than the mere knowledge of the mind.
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Old 10-12-2017, 10:29 PM   #1155
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You quoted his words so they become your own. Man up.
I stated that the words were mine not Borg's. What more do you want?

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Romans 10.9 (and numerous other verses) makes it clear that our salvation is contingent upon the belief that the man Jesus Christ was physically and literally raised from the dead. It was neither metaphorical nor physical for Thomas to put his finger in the nail hole wounds of the Savior.
"Neither metaphorical nor physical"? I'm confused. I thought you were making the case that the resurrection was physical.

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Faith is the knowledge of the heart, which is far more real and sure than the mere knowledge of the mind.
Again you confuse me. You said, "salvation is contingent upon the belief that the man Jesus Christ was physically and literally raised from the dead." Then you contrast faith with mere knowledge of the mind. Isn't belief a state of mind?

Anyway, I was contrasting faith with knowledge. At least, you seem to agree with me that they are not the same.
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:50 AM   #1156
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You're analyzing Ohio's reasoning from Borg's proposition. I don't get Ohio's logic either.
I was referring to the quote you provided:

"Third, postmodernity is marked by a movement beyond fact fundamentalism to the realization that stories can be true without being literally and factually true. This development is reflected in much of contemporary theology’s emphasis on metaphorical theology. An obvious point that has often been forgotten during the period of modernity: metaphors and metaphorical narratives can be profoundly true even if they are not literally or factually true."

This is purely hypothetical, hence Ohio chose to discuss the resurrection and I chose to discuss the flood.

Are you saying that this quote of Borg's does not apply to the resurrection and the flood? If so what does it apply to?

On the other hand if it does apply to the resurrection and the flood then at what point did I go off on a tangent?

I think it is clear from this quote that he is saying there are metaphorical narratives in the NT that are not factually true even though "fact fundamentalism" views these stories as true. Once again, "Fact fundamentalism" views both the resurrection of Jesus and the flood as true. Are these examples of what he is talking about, if not give us examples otherwise how are we to avoid "going off on tangents".

As Ohio pointed out "putting the finger into the nail wound" is fact based. If you say that this account is "metaphorically true even though it is factually false" you are saying the account is a lie. For example, there were trials concerning fire retardants in furniture and clothes because these chemicals are toxic to people. During these trials one doctor would testify about infants burned to death in fires that would have lived had the mattresses had fire retardants. Journalists investigated this testimony and discovered it was factually false. This doctor did not have any of the experiences he testified to. So they questioned him, he claimed that they were metaphorically true. What does that mean they asked? He responded "fire retardants work". Besides, he added "I wasn't under oath".
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Old 10-13-2017, 06:55 AM   #1157
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You quoted his words so they become your own. Man up.

Romans 10.9 (and numerous other verses) makes it clear that our salvation is contingent upon the belief that the man Jesus Christ was physically and literally raised from the dead. It was neither metaphorical nor physical for Thomas to put his finger in the nail hole wounds of the Savior.

Faith is the knowledge of the heart, which is far more real and sure than the mere knowledge of the mind.
Thanks for catching my mistake, zeek.

The above should read:

Romans 10.9 (and numerous other verses) makes it clear that our salvation is contingent upon the belief that the man Jesus Christ was physically and literally raised from the dead. It was never metaphorical for Thomas to put his finger in the nail hole wounds of the Savior.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:51 AM   #1158
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Thanks for catching my mistake, zeek.

The above should read:

Romans 10.9 (and numerous other verses) makes it clear that our salvation is contingent upon the belief that the man Jesus Christ was physically and literally raised from the dead. It was never metaphorical for Thomas to put his finger in the nail hole wounds of the Savior.
Well, putting the finger in the nail holes could be seen metaphorically as any action that is scientifically testing the validity of the resurrection. I think we could say the scientists studying the Shroud of Turin are "metaphorically" putting their fingers into the nail print.

Likewise Jesus use of the term "the days of Noah" can also be seen metaphorically as an analogy to the current situation we are in today.
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Old 10-14-2017, 09:10 AM   #1159
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I was referring to the quote you provided:

"Third, postmodernity is marked by a movement beyond fact fundamentalism to the realization that stories can be true without being literally and factually true. This development is reflected in much of contemporary theology’s emphasis on metaphorical theology. An obvious point that has often been forgotten during the period of modernity: metaphors and metaphorical narratives can be profoundly true even if they are not literally or factually true."

This is purely hypothetical, hence Ohio chose to discuss the resurrection and I chose to discuss the flood.

Are you saying that this quote of Borg's does not apply to the resurrection and the flood? If so what does it apply to?

On the other hand if it does apply to the resurrection and the flood then at what point did I go off on a tangent?

I think it is clear from this quote that he is saying there are metaphorical narratives in the NT that are not factually true even though "fact fundamentalism" views these stories as true. Once again, "Fact fundamentalism" views both the resurrection of Jesus and the flood as true. Are these examples of what he is talking about, if not give us examples otherwise how are we to avoid "going off on tangents".

As Ohio pointed out "putting the finger into the nail wound" is fact based. If you say that this account is "metaphorically true even though it is factually false" you are saying the account is a lie. For example, there were trials concerning fire retardants in furniture and clothes because these chemicals are toxic to people. During these trials one doctor would testify about infants burned to death in fires that would have lived had the mattresses had fire retardants. Journalists investigated this testimony and discovered it was factually false. This doctor did not have any of the experiences he testified to. So they questioned him, he claimed that they were metaphorically true. What does that mean they asked? He responded "fire retardants work". Besides, he added "I wasn't under oath".
I don't have anything from Borg on The Flood. I do have material from him on The Resurrection if you want to get into that. I don't know if you are familiar with N.T. Wright but Borg and Wright wrote a book together comparing and contrasting their views on The Resurrection.

I think when Borg talks about "fact fundamentalism" he is referring to the modernist view regardless whether it is pro or anti- Christianity. Your proposition that if it isn't a fact it's a lie is a good example of that. By that criterion, all of Jesus' parables were lies unless they referred to historical facts. Jesus must have witnessed an actual log in somebody's eye and a camel trying to get through the eye of a needle. Otherwise, he was lying.
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Old 10-14-2017, 09:45 AM   #1160
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Thanks for catching my mistake, zeek.

The above should read:

Romans 10.9 (and numerous other verses) makes it clear that our salvation is contingent upon the belief that the man Jesus Christ was physically and literally raised from the dead. It was never metaphorical for Thomas to put his finger in the nail hole wounds of the Savior.
And yet Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God." So, if Paul was right, it seems that Jesus was something other than flesh and blood at that point. Or do you suppose he hadn't inherited the Kingdom yet?
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Old 10-14-2017, 10:45 AM   #1161
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Well, putting the finger in the nail holes could be seen metaphorically as any action that is scientifically testing the validity of the resurrection. I think we could say the scientists studying the Shroud of Turin are "metaphorically" putting their fingers into the nail print.

Likewise Jesus use of the term "the days of Noah" can also be seen metaphorically as an analogy to the current situation we are in today.
Or, Thomas could be viewed as a cautionary tale about the progenitor of a school of thought that competed with the Johannine school:
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Mark, Matthew, and Luke mention Thomas only as one of "the twelve." John singles him out as "the doubter" -- the one who failed to understand who Jesus is, or what he is saying, and rejected the testimony of the other disciples. John then tells how the risen Jesus personally appeared to Thomas in order to rebuke him, and brought him to his knees. From this we might conclude, as most Christians have for nearly two millennia, that Thomas was a particularly obtuse and faithless disciple -- though many of John’s Christian contemporaries revered Thomas as an ordinary apostle, entrusted with Jesus' "secret words." The scholar Gregory Riley suggests that John portrays Thomas this way for the practical -- and polemical -- purpose of deprecating Thomas Christians and their teaching. http://mt_space.blogspot.com/Beyond%...20excerpts.pdf
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:57 AM   #1162
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And yet Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God." So, if Paul was right, it seems that Jesus was something other than flesh and blood at that point. Or do you suppose he hadn't inherited the Kingdom yet?
Jesus literally and physically rose from the dead with a spiritual body, which could be touched, still has the wounds from the cross, can eat food, can become visible or invisible, can ascend to heaven.

Before you start quoting me verses, please read carefully I Corinthians chapter 15.
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Old 10-14-2017, 01:15 PM   #1163
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Jesus literally and physically rose from the dead with a spiritual body, which could be touched, still has the wounds from the cross, can eat food, can become visible or invisible, can ascend to heave.

Before you start quoting me verses, please read carefully I Corinthians chapter 15.
I notice Paul contrasts the resurrected spiritual body with a physical body. A spiritual body that is not flesh or blood and can walk through walls and appear and disappear etc. is unlike any physical body I've ever seen.
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:01 PM   #1164
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I don't have anything from Borg on The Flood. I do have material from him on The Resurrection if you want to get into that. I don't know if you are familiar with N.T. Wright but Borg and Wright wrote a book together comparing and contrasting their views on The Resurrection.

I think when Borg talks about "fact fundamentalism" he is referring to the modernist view regardless whether it is pro or anti- Christianity. Your proposition that if it isn't a fact it's a lie is a good example of that. By that criterion, all of Jesus' parables were lies unless they referred to historical facts. Jesus must have witnessed an actual log in somebody's eye and a camel trying to get through the eye of a needle. Otherwise, he was lying.
I did not say that any figure of speech is lie if it is not the retelling of fact. The example I gave was of a doctor giving a testimony in a public hearing, presenting this testimony as though he were sharing an incident that took place in his hospital, and presenting it in such a way that everyone understood the story to be a factual recounting.

Jesus did not do that when He told parables. It is readily apparent that certain verses, references, and words in the Bible are allegorical. When you say "the kingdom of God is like..." it is very clear to everyone that this is not a factual account but an allegorical one.

Several years ago OBW and others railed on me that I was too much like WL and his love for allegories. Now you claim that i have said anything other than a factual recounting is a lie. Both views are bogus. If we are talking about allegories that is fine with me, but everyone should be clear that this is an allegory and not a fact. Paul made it crystal clear that the resurrection is a fact, not an allegory.
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Old 10-14-2017, 02:07 PM   #1165
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Or, Thomas could be viewed as a cautionary tale about the progenitor of a school of thought that competed with the Johannine school:
Jesus rebuked very one of the disciples. He rebuked Peter. He rebuked the disciples that went to the mountain top with him and saw Moses and Elijah. He rebuked the disciples that didn't go and were unable to heal the epileptic boy, and He rebuked Peter again when he said that Jesus paid the tribute.

He particularly rebuked the faith of the disciples that couldn't heal the epileptic saying "if they had faith as...". So I find this interpretation of "doubting Thomas" to be flawed and unsupported by the NT.

On the contrary if you you are not able to take a rebuke from the Lord you are unable to enter the kingdom. That is how I understand Matt 18.

After being rebuked repeatedly the disciples asked "Who then is the greatest in the kingdom" -- it is very clear that this question is based on the context of having been rebuked by Jesus. He tells them they must humble themselves as a little child if they are going to even enter the kingdom, once again the context is being able to receive the Lord's correction.
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Old 10-14-2017, 03:24 PM   #1166
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I notice Paul contrasts the resurrected spiritual body with a physical body. A spiritual body that is not flesh or blood and can walk through walls and appear and disappear etc. is unlike any physical body I've ever seen.
Paul contrasts the resurrected, heavenly, incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual body with the earthly, corruptible, dishonorable, and soulish body.

But this spiritual body can still be touched, still has wounds from the cross, etc. and is definitely not metaphorical, yet the metaphor of a seed and a full-grown plant are used to describe it.
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Old 10-14-2017, 03:50 PM   #1167
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Paul contrasts the resurrected, heavenly, incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual body with the earthly, corruptible, dishonorable, and soulish body.

But this spiritual body can still be touched, still has wounds from the cross, etc. and is definitely not metaphorical, yet the metaphor of a seed and a full-grown plant are used to describe it.
This is serendipitous timing. I'm reading "The Birth of Christianity" by John Dominic Crossan, and in it he speaks of a 2nd c. book entitled "The Acts of John." :

In the first part, Acts of John 88b– 96, the earthly life of Jesus is summarized, but with an emphasis on the unreality of his body.

This unreality is shown by four points, each of which is mentioned twice (NTA 2.180– 181).

First, Jesus’ body is polymorphous and ever-changing. The sons of Zebedee see Jesus on the shore, but at first James sees a “child” and John sees a “man … handsome, fair, and cheerful-looking.”

Later, as they beach their boat, John sees Jesus as “rather bald-( headed) but with a thick flowing beard,” while James now sees “a young man whose beard was just beginning.”

Second, John “never saw Jesus’ eyes closing, but always open.” One night, in fact, while John was faking sleep, he saw “another like him coming down” to Jesus.

Third, Jesus’ body was both small and huge. “He sometimes appeared to me as a small man with no good looks, and then again as looking up to heaven.” Thus, for example, on the Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus’ “head stretched up to heaven,” but when he turned about he “appeared as a small man.”

Fourth and finally, Jesus’ body “had another strange (property); when I reclined at table he would take me to his own breast, and I held him (fast); and sometimes his breast felt to me smooth and soft, but sometimes hard like rock.” And again, a second time, “I will tell you another glory, brethren; sometimes when I meant to touch him I encountered a material, solid body; but at other times again when I felt him, his substance was immaterial and incorporeal, and as if it did not exist at all.”
~~Crossan, John Dominic. The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened In the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus (p. 34). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:11 PM   #1168
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Even tho The Acts of John are clearly pseudepigraphal, it gives us a window into how they thought and conceived back then.

Our world today, and their world back then are too different to ever nail down. That's just one reason we can't "Recover" the early church. Things were too different back then. Believe it or not, but they didn't even have the internet. Haha.

I admit that I like the polymorphous body of Jesus depicted in The Acts of John. Jesus was a shapeshifter. Bro ZNP could prolly relate that, to something ... prolly somehow, from the Bible.

The canonized stories of Jesus say the same thing as The Acts of John, with the AoJ providing more fun details.

And if Paul was right -- and who knows, he could have been -- we can count on having a polymorphous body just like Jesus one day.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:18 PM   #1169
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I did not say that any figure of speech is lie if it is not the retelling of fact. The example I gave was of a doctor giving a testimony in a public hearing, presenting this testimony as though he were sharing an incident that took place in his hospital, and presenting it in such a way that everyone understood the story to be a factual recounting.

Jesus did not do that when He told parables. It is readily apparent that certain verses, references, and words in the Bible are allegorical. When you say "the kingdom of God is like..." it is very clear to everyone that this is not a factual account but an allegorical one.

Several years ago OBW and others railed on me that I was too much like WL and his love for allegories. Now you claim that i have said anything other than a factual recounting is a lie. Both views are bogus. If we are talking about allegories that is fine with me, but everyone should be clear that this is an allegory and not a fact. Paul made it crystal clear that the resurrection is a fact, not an allegory.
Okay well I thought the point of your doctor story was that metaphors are lies if they aren't factual. So now you admit that Jesus' parable are true even if not factual. If that is so, why couldn't any biblical text be true and yet not factual?

By the way, I take metaphor to be a broad category that includes but is not limited to allegory. With an allegory there is a one to one correspondence between a representation and what is represented i.e. the signifier [A'] and the signified [A]. With Jesus parables, one often can't identify what is signified precisely. Thus, the stories have an open ended quality that allows them to speak to the heart. A similar point can be made regarding appearances the resurrected Jesus if one takes the experience to be unique and thus only describable in terms of inexact mundane analogs.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:36 PM   #1170
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Paul contrasts the resurrected, heavenly, incorruptible, glorious, and spiritual body with the earthly, corruptible, dishonorable, and soulish body.

But this spiritual body can still be touched, still has wounds from the cross, etc. and is definitely not metaphorical, yet the metaphor of a seed and a full-grown plant are used to describe it.
Borg addresses exactly that point:

Quote:
The third feature of 1 Corinthians 15 is found in the last half of the chapter. There Paul addresses the question of what the resurrection body is like: “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?”

It is, of course, our question: how physically are we to think of the resurrection? As Paul responds to that question, he uses an analogy that points to both continuity and discontinuity. The physical body is to the resurrection body as a seed is to a full-grown plant. Continuity: the seed becomes the plant. Discontinuity: a full-grown plant looks radically different from the seed. Then Paul distinguishes between two kinds of bodies.

As Tom correctly points out, scholars disagree about how to translate the Greek phrases for these two kinds of bodies. Tom also correctly points out that the translation “physical body” and “spiritual body” goes beyond what the Greek says; the Greek phrase behind “physical body” means literally “a body animated by soul,” and the second phrase means “a body animated by spirit.” Yet the context suggests to me that the contrast “physical body” and “spiritual body” does express what Paul means.

According to other things Paul says in the immediate context, the “body animated by soul” is “flesh and blood,” “perishable,” “of the earth,” “of dust.” This is what we typically mean by a physical body. The “body animated by spirit,” on the other hand, is none of these things.

Thus Paul affirms a bodily resurrection, even as he radically distinguishes the resurrection body from a flesh-and-blood (that is, physical) body. The two bodies are as different as a plant is from a seed.

Whether Paul’s language points to a new mode of physicality (as Tom suggests) is indeterminate, it seems to me. Perhaps we need to take seriously that Paul thought there are spiritual bodies that are not physical.

Before I leave 1 Corinthians 15, I want to note an irony. Verse 14 is often quoted by our conservative and fundamentalist Christian brothers and sisters in support of the absolute centrality of a physical resurrection: “If Christ has not been raised, then our preaching has been in vain and your faith has been in vain.” But the verse is found in a chapter that strongly suggests that the resurrection body is not a physical body."
In a footnote Borg adds:

Quote:
It is important to note that one can speak of a bodily resurrection without meaning physical body. Thus, for example, affirming the line in the creed, “I believe in the resurrection of the body” need not mean physical body.
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Old 10-14-2017, 07:51 PM   #1171
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Even tho The Acts of John are clearly pseudepigraphal, it gives us a window into how they thought and conceived back then.

Our world today, and their world back then are too different to ever nail down. That's just one reason we can't "Recover" the early church. Things were too different back then. Believe it or not, but they didn't even have the internet. Haha.

I admit that I like the polymorphous body of Jesus depicted in The Acts of John. Jesus was a shapeshifter. Bro ZNP could prolly relate that, to something ... prolly somehow, from the Bible.

The canonized stories of Jesus say the same thing as The Acts of John, with the AoJ providing more fun details.

And if Paul was right -- and who knows, he could have been -- we can count on having a polymorphous body just like Jesus one day.
E.P. Sanders widely regarded as America's leading Jesus scholar, says this about what people thought during jesus' time:

Quote:
In the first century people knew about two phenomena that are similar to resurrection: ghosts and resuscitated corpses. A ghost then was what a ghost is now, or what a ghost was to Shakespeare:4 a phantasm, especially one that appears late at night.5 Sophisticated ancients, like their modern counterparts, dismissed ghosts as creatures of dreams, figments of the imagination. The less sophisticated, naturally, were credulous.

Both Paul and Luke opposed the idea that the risen Lord was a ghost, Luke explicitly (‘a ghost has not flesh and bones as you see that I have’, 24.40), Paul by implication: what is raised is a spiritual body. Yet they equally opposed the idea that Jesus was a resuscitated corpse. These were better known then than now, because embalming is so widespread.

It is, however, possible for a person to be dead to all appearances, and later to ‘regain’ life. There are several such stories in ancient literature, some in the Bible and some elsewhere. [6. I Kgs 17.8–14; II Kgs 4.18–36; Mark 5.21 (//Matthew 9.18–26; Luke 8.40–56); Luke 7.11–17; Acts 9.36–43; John 11.5–44; Philostratus, Life of Apollonius of Tyana 4.45; Pliny, Natural History 26.13; Apuleius, Florida 19.]


Paul and Luke, however, denied that the risen Lord was simply resuscitated. In Paul’s view he had been transformed, changed from a ‘physical’ or ‘natural’ body to a ‘spiritual body’. Luke thought that he had flesh and could eat, but also that he had been changed. He was not obviously recognizable to people who saw him, and he could appear and disappear. Both authors were trying to describe – Paul at first hand, Luke at second or third hand – an experience that does not fit a known category. What they deny is much clearer than what they affirm.

Sanders, E.. The Historical Figure of Jesus (Kindle Locations 5111-5124). Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition.


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Old 10-14-2017, 07:52 PM   #1172
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Default Re: Christianity in the Postmodern Era

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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Okay well I thought the point of your doctor story was that metaphors are lies if they aren't factual. So now you admit that Jesus' parable are true even if not factual. If that is so, why couldn't any biblical text be true and yet not factual?
When the Bible speaks in parables it tells you it is a parable. When it is giving a factual account it tells you that as well. The lie is when you pretend that a parable is a factual account. That is why the doctor also said "Besides, I wasn't under oath". When you mislead people into thinking it is a factual account, that is a form of lying.

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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
By the way, I take metaphor to be a broad category that includes but is not limited to allegory. With an allegory there is a one to one correspondence between a representation and what is represented i.e. the signifier [A'] and the signified [A]. With Jesus parables, one often can't identify what is signified precisely. thus, the stories have an open ended quality that allows them to speak to the heart. WL , perhaps because of his need to explain everything for followers he looked down on as simpletons, allegorized them. The problem then was, that there was no way to verify his allegorical interpretation. I can provide examples if you're interested.
That is fine with me. If Borg's reference is to Jesus parables I don't see how anyone would take issue with that, but apparently he views the resurrection as a parable even though Paul said very clearly if that is the case then the apostles are liars.
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Old 10-14-2017, 08:01 PM   #1173
ZNPaaneah
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Default Re: Christianity in the Postmodern Era

Yes, we don't know what the resurrected Body will be like, only that it is connected to our physical body in this life just as a seed is connected to the plant that grows from that seed.

However, there are many things that we do know about the next age. Christians, in the next age, will have a "spiritual body" yet will continue to interact with people in the world that have a soulish body (they walk by the light of the city). We continue to live and have our being on Earth. We will know people who died in the next the life. Jesus was the first fruit of the resurrection. He had a physical body that you could touch, He could eat, He could talk, walk. He still had scars from the first life. However, His appearance was different, and He appeared to be omnipresent and not limited by time or space.
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