What should I be looking for in a church?

[Kevin]

I just wanna tell you all of you here. I have made my way out, but the fear I'm the only one of the family members have left this group. I thank God for relieving the truth to me for more over 4 years of reservations. Now, I'm constantly getting out for good and be joined with orthodox and evangelical Christians. I couldn't agree more the blatant contradictions of LSM's teachings. I felt bad for those people like John So, Titus Chu, John Ingalls, reading their stories that have treated wrongly. I made a thorough investigation to decide when is the right time to leave the Local Church movement. I used to defend the local church theology against critics for years. What turned out has changed the course of my life. First start, I have had encountered this website a long time ago, but my local church elders have told us not to read poisions posted on the Internet. But it isn't a poison it's an inoculation!

Everything they told me were plain lies. Teachings were contradictory when you compare scripture with scripture. And the hidden history really got hooked my attention. It was too horrible and hardly to describe. I do affirm some of things that LSM hold to. But as I went beyond the empty tombs, the fox has revealed its tails. I made my decision to leave because it's difficult to grow my relationship with Jesus when all I just heard from them is bashing Christians in Christianity and claiming that God is on our side. There so many things I have had enough with them.

What drove me away were their theological views and their attitude towards other Christians.

I'm strongly convicted to look in a more Bible-based, Christ-honoring direction and can do that in a loving manner, then staying would seem to be the better course of action. I don't know exactly because no church is perfect. I wanna sure to pray about a group I'm considering, to be sure I'm following the Lord's leading as I search. Maybe I could begin my search online, to see all of my options. And especially I wanna sure to read a church's doctrinal statement or statement of belief to find out about their stance on important issues. If from this initial research a church seems to be good and solid, then I visit that church.

I would like to ask if these teachers like John Piper and James White are biblical sound teachers and recommendable to my Christian walk. Please help me because I don't know exactly where to go to start my Christian walk.

PS. English is not my first language. I'm having difficulty to outline what should I say.

[jcyrb]

Welcome to the forum, Kevin, I went through a very similar situation as you as I discovered the truths of the so-called rebellions in the late eighties. I am currently in my late twenties, and I am also in a similar situation as you as I am in a process of re-building my entire life from scratch. To your question, I think John Piper is very solid but I don’t know much about James White. John Piper belongs to the sector of Christianity known as reformed Christianity which has its lineage that includes John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards and others. One of my friends is part of the Presbyterian Church of America and I went to his church for about a year and then had to move away for work. In general I have very good impression of the reformed Christians, because they are very focused on study of the Bible and put much attention on living biblically. The downside to them is that many of them believe in cessationism which is the beliefs that spiritual gifts such as prophecy and speaking in tongue have ceased since the apostolic age, which I think is unbiblical. However, one of the good things about them is that they have clear rules and guidelines for everything in the church (sometimes to a fault because it can make their Sunday worship look robotic). That sounds very restrictive, but actually what that means is the church leadership acts with much accountability and therefore would prevent the gross abuse of power as we saw in the LC. Also, in their guidelines they even say you don’t have to agree with everything they say to remain a member in the church. They allow some freedom of discussion of scripture so even when I was there and the pastor knew I disagree with him on something, he still treated me just like anybody else. It is a very healthy system of checks and balance of church governance and I think you should check them out. It is a breath of fresh air compared to the soft dictatorship in LC. However, the reform church does not allow free-for-all prophesying in corporate worship and on Sunday it is the pastor preaching, but they have home gathering as well which affords members freedom to share their spiritual experience, so to me the good far outweighs the bad.

Aside from John Piper, other people in the reformed churches I would recommend are Paul Washer and R.C. Sproul. If you are looking to non-reformed but still solid preachers, I would recommend Leonard Ravenhill and Martyn Lloyd Jones. Both Ravenhill and Jones are deceased, but if you listen to their tape, both of them spoke with much anointing and conviction which I have rarely heard from any preacher. Also check out E.M Bounds books on prayer.

[jcyrb]

No church is perfect. One of the first community churches I visited had a very faithful and compassionate pastor, and I received much counsel from him. However later on he moved away and the interim pastor was not nearly as good. That is why I recommend you to at least check out the reformed church, because in many churches the atmosphere is heavily influenced by the personal charisma and faithfulness of the pastor, and as soon as the pastor moves away, the church would often deteriorate and lose membership. The reformed Presbyterians (especially the Presbyterian Church of America and other conservative Presbyterian branches such as OPC) put much effort into building healthy relations among their local branches to support each other while preventing abuse of power by higher ups.

There are also many Pentecostal based churches that may be good, but my impression is that many of them focus too much on spiritual gift, which often just means they resort to fake emotions and subjective feelings. The reformed churches, given all of its flaws, still remain solid option in my opinion.

To clarify, I am not talking about the mainline Presbyterian Church (PCUSA). Don’t go to that. They open allow practicing homosexuals to be in the church and to serve in the church. Look at the conservative wings of the Presbyterian churches.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What drove me away were their theological views and their attitude towards other Christians.

I'm strongly convicted to look in a more Bible-based, Christ-honoring direction and can do that in a loving manner, then staying would seem to be the better course of action. I don't know exactly because no church is perfect..

The LC has a terrible attitude toward other Christians. I can still hear WL saying, "Too poor". Contrast to his disciples promoting his "rich ministry". Such an attitude of condemnation of others and self-satisfaction really marred this ministry and the group affiliated with it.

(WL did repent at the end, on the matter of "receiving others", but it didn't make much of a change that I could see)

And the main problem with their theological views, in my opinion, isn't that they were laced with ignorance. On this side of the mortal veil we're all ignorant. It's that ignorance was foisted on us like it was objective reality. Listen to any message given by WL and you would hear, "We all must see that. . ." and "You must say. . ." repeatedly. No choice was given. Bad theology, or at least highly subjective and speculative theology, was placed in front of us and we were forced to eat.

Look at any HWMR - "we must" and "we need to" and "we have to" is attached to ideosyncratic fluff. Not all of it, of course; some is sound. But there's enough subjective nonsense to fill several rooms.

Originally Posted by jcyrb

Look at the conservative wings of the Presbyterian churches.

I agree with jcyrb. Go somewhere safe. Don't worry about boring. Go somewhere conservative, and relatively safe. Where abuse is less likely. Ultimately you are responsible for your journey. But you want to conduct your journey in a place where people are not pressuring you to conform to unbiblical standards, like in the LC.

[Kevin]

I have much interested with the conservative Reformed churches. I do aware the mainline Presbyterian Church that allows homosexuality. I'm really upset with the LC elders and co-workers here for allowing a millionaire brother who had annullement to force a young sister to marry him in her twenties. It's because of money matters and wanting to have a fancy meeting hall! They kicked out a co-worker just for accepting him in our region. There are lot of things have gone beyond the lines. And I fear that I know what the implications are, if I announce to leave publicly, I would be labeled as an opposer. I would lose my relationship with my relatives and my grandma who supported me for college. Please pray for me.

[Kevin]

My mom got stumbled for calling her "junk" by an elder for not doing her job well as a bookroom in charge. My step dad also got stumbled about one elder that he was falsely accused about few things because of that elder's jealously and envy. Those elders never reconciled to my parents. They just don't mind at all. They all care for those saints who shows loyalty to them.

[Kevin]

I'm starting reading the ESV Bible. I'm wanting to order two books called Desiring God and The Pleasures of God by John Piper. But it's kinda expensive to afford it. Can somebody would be so kind order me those books. Anyways, I always follow his website 'desiringgod.org'

[aron]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Those elders never reconciled to my parents. They just don't mind at all. They all care for those saints who shows loyalty to them.

Kevin, in Chinese culture, apologizing is to lose face. But the problem isn't Chinese culture, but that Witness Lee taught that it didn't exist in the LC. So it began to increasingly dominate LC affairs, but nobody could address it.

So the only "oneness" in the LC was maintained by abject servility to leaders. I bet those elders had the same problems that your parents had with them. It is an entirely human system of 'guanxi networks', of reciprocal obligations. Violate this network, and you will not be forgiven.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Kevin

. I would lose my relationship with my relatives and my grandma who supported me for college.

Guanxi networks. Once you see them for what they are, they lose their power over you.

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by aron

Guanxi networks. Once you see them for what they are, they lose their power over you.

I hate that guanxi stuff, so annoying. Now that you mention it, yeah the church was rife with it - "oh, your new one wants to get a job in this company? Brother so and so is the CEO, we can have morning revival together with him tomorrow to discuss getting him a position there to help shepherd him..."

Some of it seemed just plain immoral to me, like I shouldn't have anything to do with certain things and am totally unqualified but I'm 'in' because I'm in the church. But my Chinese ex wife felt it was perfectly acceptable and just the way things work.

[OBW]

I see a lot of advice concerning this writer or that preacher/writer. But unless you happen to live in the right place, you are going to get some common preacher who probably went to one of a number of different seminaries or Bible schools. And they are going to be reading and picking from many sources, both recent and past (even long past). If they are not, I would always be wary that you are headed into another closed system.

The point is to get connected with other Christians. To hear the word proclaimed regularly. To join in corporate worship. That is generally easier when you do it with people you get to know at least a little. People that you see fairly regularly. So whether you "become a member" or just attend regularly, you are joining along with them on the Christian journey.

Despite things you have seen from me in other threads, I would steer you toward more evangelical churches. Reformed, Baptist, Bible churches, so many of the more recent (and loose) affiliations. Too many to know them all or name them. But good options. And if your leaning is toward the other end of the spectrum, I would not dissuade you as long as you are preparing to join in the liturgy as reminding you week after week of the truth of Jesus and of our part in his continued life on earth. I do not think that the RCC is unchristian, but it is also difficult to suggest that as an option.

You should be looking for a church that is there for your growth and for the propagation of the Gospel, whether in missionary ways or other acts of service in your community. Take note of their stance toward others who are not of their flock. And if you see anything that you think is truly of serious error, you might want to reconsider. But I will not lead you as to what kinds of things those might be. I hope that if it is important that it will be clear to you. Otherwise, I pray for your ability to practice generality.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by OBW

I would steer you toward more evangelical churches. generality.

I'm trying to check up with Christ Commission Fellowship (CCF). CCF is conservative Evangelical but does not identify itself as either Reformed nor Arminian to avoid unnecessary identification with a myriad of traditions and practices from mainline protestant denominations. CCF is Trinitarian; believes in the full inspiration, inerrancy, and supreme authority of the 66 books that comprise the Holy Scriptures; and salvation by grace through faith in Jesus alone, based on His divinity and humanity and His finished work on the cross. Beats me with this one. I haven't yet made my full decision because I have just recently out the LC, wondering where to start my life.

I sent an email to Got Questions Ministries about this Evangelical church.

Question 530918: Is Christ Commission Fellowship (CCF) biblically a solid church? This is their official website. http://www.ccf.org.ph/

Answered by: Steve

Answer:
CCF is a biblically sound church. I have never had the opportunity to attend their services but have seen their television show. I did look at the website and read their core values and found nothing wrong with their ministry. They believe Jesus is the Son of God, was born of a virgin, died on the cross and rose from the dead three days later and is alive today.

I can find nothing wrong with any of their teachings on television or on their website.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm trying to check up with Christ Commission Fellowship (CCF). CCF is conservative Evangelical but does not identify itself as either Reformed nor Arminian to avoid unnecessary identification with a myriad of traditions and practices from mainline protestant denominations. CCF is Trinitarian; believes in the full inspiration, inerrancy, and supreme authority of the 66 books that comprise the Holy Scriptures; and salvation by grace through faith in Jesus alone, based on His divinity and humanity and His finished work on the cross. Beats me with this one. I haven't yet made my full decision because I have just recently out the LC, wondering where to start my life.

I sent an email to Got Questions Ministries about this Evangelical church.

Sounds pretty much like a Bible church other than the fact that most (all?) of them are probably Calvinist. But they don't agree on everything. The only absolutely similar thing is the name. So it doesn't mean much.

As for the kind of doctrinal statement that you semi-quoted, it seem typical. And while everywhere that I have been since the LRC holds to the same general statements, I sort of wish they would make their doctrinal statement a little less dogmatic. Mostly about the whole "inerrancy" thing. Not because I think there are errors in the Bible, but because "inerrancy" so often doesn't really mean that. More like it means "we believe that the Bible — all 66 books — support our positions on all the other things we believe that are not stated in this short document. And it means that every bit of inspiration that I receive out of 5 words in a row is inspired by God. And it means that my interpretation of unclear passages is the correct one, supported by the "inerrant" Bible.

Almost nothing that needs that kind of inerrancy is that important for your Christian life. Seems more like a trump card for a doctrinal debate than what the Bible said about itself — profitable for teaching, reproof, and instruction in righteousness.

[Kevin]

What should I do tomorrow? I already left the LRC movement. But these elders asked me to face them to recant my doctrinal views. They have no idea what the reformation holds where I am leaning to. All they asked is to submit to their authority. Anyone advice? Should I meet them up to rebuttal my standing? They're gonna quarantine me if I don't repent.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I just wanna tell you all of you here. I have made my way out, but the fear I'm the only one of the family members have left this group. I thank God for relieving the truth to me for more over 4 years of reservations.

Originally Posted by Kevin

What should I do tomorrow? I already left the LRC movement. But these elders asked me to face them to recant my doctrinal views. They have no idea what the reformation holds where I am leaning to. All they asked is to submit to their authority. Anyone advice? Should I meet them up to rebuttal my standing? They're gonna quarantine me if I don't repent.

Kevin, it sounds like what you have already told others is having an impact on them, and the elders want you to recant your words so that others do not leave the LC also. It also sounds like they have no interest in discussing the truths of the Bible with you, but have decided that you are a dangerous "heretic, rebel, leper, fill-in-the-blank," and that you must be silenced.

It does not sound like you are prepared to meet them tomorrow, so you might want to postpone the meeting so that you have more time to prayerfully consider what the Lord would have you do and say. If that is not possible, Jesus specifically told us, "But when you are arrested and stand trial, don't worry in advance about what to say. Just say what God tells you at that time, for it is not you who will be speaking, but the Holy Spirit." (Mark 13.11, Matthew 10.19, Luke 12.11)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm really upset with the LC elders and co-workers here for allowing a millionaire brother who had annullement to force a young sister to marry him in her twenties. It's because of money matters and wanting to have a fancy meeting hall! They kicked out a co-worker just for accepting him in our region. There are lot of things have gone beyond the lines. And I fear that I know what the implications are, if I announce to leave publicly, I would be labeled as an opposer. I would lose my relationship with my relatives and my grandma who supported me for college. Please pray for me.

I would not go to this meeting without bringing witnesses. If you are the only one there then they can completely control how you are depicted. Bring at least two or three witnesses. This would be a very good reason for why you need to postpone because this time is not convenient for two or three of those willing to come with you. Also if you are concerned about your grandmother then perhaps she could be one of those witnesses there.

You say the purpose of the meeting is to ask you to repent for your doctrinal views. I am not aware of the public statements that you have made that they are asking you to recant.

Do not bring up their alleged sins unless you have evidence you wish to bring to their attention and you know of at least one more witness that will corroborate your testimony. For example the key testimony in this account of the millionaire brother forcing the sister against her will is this sister's testimony. If she is not going to corroborate this then this story alone would be justification for some form of discipline.

I am also confused -- you say you have left the movement yet they are going to quarantine you if you don't recant. What is it that you have said publicly that you need to recant?

[Drake]

-1

ZNP) "I am also confused -- you say you have left the movement yet they are going to quarantine you if you don't recant. What is it that you have said publicly that you need to recant?"

I had the same question. Frankly, there are several inconsistencies with the testimony.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

-1

ZNP) "I am also confused -- you say you have left the movement yet they are going to quarantine you if you don't recant. What is it that you have said publicly that you need to recant?"

I had the same question. Frankly, there are several inconsistencies with the testimony.

LOCAL CHURCH QUARANTINE: Public shaming which discredits and destroys Kevin's reputation within their system in order to punish this so-called "heretic, rebel, leper" and isolate him from his own friends and family still within the LC system. Normally the victim of the quarantine is not present, and is not able to defend himself. The whole sham is little more than a Kangaroo Court.

LC Quarantine is independent of whether or not Kevin still meets in the LC's, but, of course, once Kevin is officially quarantined, he will not be permitted to meet.

Since Drake has seen a number of these quarantines over the years, his question and comment are remarkably disingenuous.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What should I do tomorrow? I already left the LRC movement. But these elders asked me to face them to recant my doctrinal views. They have no idea what the reformation holds where I am leaning to. All they asked is to submit to their authority. Anyone advice? Should I meet them up to rebuttal my standing? They're gonna quarantine me if I don't repent.

I and two others were given a week to stand up and repent before the whole assembly, or be excommunicated. I felt I had nothing to repent of.

A week goes by and the elders show up at my door. They had my wife leave, sat around me, and told me what I had to do to remain the LC.

But it was a demand that was so far out there that it was impossible for me to do.

I left. Thank God. And I would love to shake the hand of that elder that made it impossible for me to stay in the church.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I and two others were given a week to stand up and repent before the whole assembly, or be excommunicated. I felt I had nothing to repent of.

A week goes by and the elders show up at my door. They had my wife leave, sat around me, and told me what I had to do to remain the LC.

But it was a demand that was so far out there that it was impossible for me to do.

I have never seen an LSM quarantine for cases like I Cor 5.9-13, Titus 3.10-11, or II John 10 in the New Testament. Oh sure, the Quarantiners used some scripture verses, but none of it fit the actual situation. Cutting through all of their outrageous claims, the unique reason for being quarantined by LSM and its operatives is by adhering to the Word of God rather than the teachings and practices of Witness Lee. All of these brothers had to weigh the consequences of obeying God or man. (please read Acts 4.19, 5.29)

Each case of quarantine by LSM was a copy-cat exercise of II Thess. 3.14, "And if anyone does not obey our word by this letter, mark this one that you may not associate with him, in order that he may be put to shame." This all sounds "legitimate" until you consider that copy editors at an Anaheim book publisher are not Apostle Paul, and never possessed apostolic authority to pen the epistles. Obeying the scripture and disobeying LSM's petty decrees is about as serious as not eating desert. Regardless of how far-fetched LSM's claims were, they still never practiced the subsequent verse written by Paul in II Thess 3.15, "And do not consider him an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What should I do tomorrow? I already left the LRC movement. But these elders asked me to face them to recant my doctrinal views. They have no idea what the reformation holds where I am leaning to. All they asked is to submit to their authority. Anyone advice? Should I meet them up to rebuttal my standing? They're gonna quarantine me if I don't repent.

Who cares if they quarantine you? It's like a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness telling you that you can't be part of their movement.

Seek first the kingdom.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Who cares if they quarantine you? It's like a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness telling you that you can't be part of their movement.

Seek first the kingdom.

I agree. I would much rather be right with GOD than with man especially those who usurp God's Word.

Remember Matthew 7:21-23

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

The LSM is notorious for calling out 'LORD! LORD!' They do claim to prophesy in His Name
They may not be notorious for casting out demons or performing miracles. But they are notorious for excommunicating (casting out) people out of their religious organization.

Take refuge in Jesus.

Psalm 7:1
O Lord my God, in You I have taken refuge; Save me from all those who pursue me, and deliver me,

Psalm 18:1-3
“I love You, O Lord, my strength.” The Lord is my Rock and my Fortress and my Deliverer, My God, my Rock, in Whom I take refuge;

(You are) My shield and the Horn of my salvation, my Stronghold. I call upon the Lord, Who is worthy to be praised, And I am saved from my enemies.

May the Lord God grant you Wisdom, Strength, Revelation as you deal with this matter. The Blood of Jesus will protect you and cover you. He will encamp His ministering angels about you so no weapon formed against you will succeed. Remember. GOD LOVES YOU! He has your back! YOU BELONG TO HIM not to the LSM. He WILL PROTECT YOU!

Blessings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Who cares if they quarantine you? It's like a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness telling you that you can't be part of their movement.

Seek first the kingdom.

But Jesus also tells us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

Kevin's family is supporting him and paying his college tuition. Before we start telling him what to do, should not we first encourage him to seek the Lord for guidance?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But Jesus also tells us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

Kevin's family is supporting him and paying his college tuition. Before we start telling him what to do, should not we first encourage him to seek the Lord for guidance?

Yeah Kevin. Buck up. Stay in until you get on your own. Do it for family. It won't kill you. You can stay in and not incorporate it ; not buy into it.

Let love guide you.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But Jesus also tells us to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

Kevin's family is supporting him and paying his college tuition. Before we start telling him what to do, should not we first encourage him to seek the Lord for guidance?

All I told him was seek the Kingdom. Staying with that group so that his parents will pay for college?

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah Kevin. Buck up. Stay in until you get on your own. Do it for family. It won't kill you. You can stay in and not incorporate it ; not buy into it.

Let love guide you.

Don't stay just to keep access to your parents money. Follow the Lord - speak truth to your parents.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Don't stay just to keep access to your parents money. Follow the Lord - speak truth to your parents.

Yeah, screw love. Tell your parents the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Get a job, and pay for your own education. Or get a student loan. Plenty have done both.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

All I told him was seek the Kingdom. Staying with that group so that his parents will pay for college?

I didn't say he should stay. He already left. Rather he should be wise in what he now says and does.

When I came to the LC, I was told to leave my family, publicly renounce the Catholic Church, take my money out of their Credit Union, smash their idols, and tear up the pictures. Supposedly I was seeking the Kingdom of God first, actually I was only doing what LC zealots told me to do and not what the Lord was doing.

Needless to say, these things neither helped me, nor my family, nor the Gospel.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, screw love. Tell your parents the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Get a job, and pay for your own education. Or get a student loan. Plenty have done both.

I realize this is just a razz- but he should know that he can love his parents and speak truth (maybe he actually can't truly love them without speaking truth?). Dont take the easy way out just for the sake of it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I realize this is just a razz- but he should know that he can love his parents and speak truth (maybe he actually can't truly love them without speaking truth?). Dont take the easy way out just for the sake of it.

Well I hope the best for our brother Kevin. It ain't easy.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have never seen an LSM quarantine for cases like I Cor 5.9-13, Titus 3.10-11, or II John 10 in the New Testament. Oh sure, the Quarantiners used some scripture verses, but none of it fit the actual situation. Cutting through all of their outrageous claims, the unique reason for being quarantined by LSM and its operatives is by adhering to the Word of God rather than the teachings and practices of Witness Lee. All of these brothers had to weigh the consequences of obeying God or man. (please read Acts 4.19, 5.29)

Each case of quarantine by LSM was a copy-cat exercise of II Thess. 3.14, "And if anyone does not obey our word by this letter, mark this one that you may not associate with him, in order that he may be put to shame." This all sounds "legitimate" until you consider that copy editors at an Anaheim book publisher are not Apostle Paul, and never possessed apostolic authority to pen the epistles. Obeying the scripture and disobeying LSM's petty decrees is about as serious as not eating desert. Regardless of how far-fetched LSM's claims were, they still never practiced the subsequent verse written by Paul in II Thess 3.15, "And do not consider him an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

I agree with Ohio. The first case of quarantine I witnessed was an elder who didn't think the Bible supported the LSM's first lawsuit. Everyone, including me dutifully shunned him "because he was in his mind, and not seeking life".

The second case was an elder accused of a variety of things, including molestation. There were no corroborating witnesses to molestation. He was told he needed training in another locality from another elder. Then both the elder/coworker from Anaheim who led the proceedings against that elder and the elder who was supposed to do the training left TLR the next year.

The third case was the Anaheim elder/coworker who took the lead in the second case. He and another elder stood up to Witness Lee about his son Phillip's philandering and meddling in locality matters. He was quarantined by Witness Lee himself.

Truly baffling! That's when I started reading the Bible on my own to learn how leaders should handle these things, and found much lacking in LSM "quarantines" I saw.

Kevin, I'm praying for you. I know the Lord will be with you, and will give you strength to stay in Him and be faithful to speak truth in love.

[Kevin]

When I left LCM four months ago, I was wandering where to start again my Christian life. So, I tried entering different churches seeking and hungering for the truth. It was then through John Piper 's ministry, Desiring God Ministries that brought me to the reformed faith. I know a lot of you won't agree everything on reformed theology. However, I asked the in prayer Lord that he would give me a discipler who could help me to grow my relationship with Him. The Lord answered my prayer and the person is a Reformed Christian. But there is no reformed church here in my place. So now, he is mentoring me as his disciple. He even told me to go back to LCM for the sake of unity in the midst of diversity and diversity without conformity because he doesn't proselytize me to any denomination. So I did, just one type of meeting, but it went wrong when this elder faced me up and asked me to come over at the elders' office tomorrow. We somehow argued each other. I ran to my mentor and explained him everything.

If ever they will come over my house in order to notify me that I am quarantined that I wasn't able to meet them up. I will directly say to them. If an elder's teaching is inconsistent with God's Word or contradicts it, abusing the flock, lording over others and promoting what materials should be exclusively used, a person is under NO obligation to obey and better he must leave the congregation. False teachers are NOT to be obeyed, but rather rejected! Its is better to obey God rather than mere fallible men. A Christian should not go against the authority of scriptures. Here I stand.

Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. ~ Martin Luther

[least]

I feel for you bro. Kevin. You have to face this LCM-elders bully while there are threats over your finance-college fees and family separation.
Your mentor thought you could go back and meet in LCM, "for the sake of unity in the midst of diversity and diversity without conformity". Sorry, he does not know that there is no room for 'diversity' and 'diversity without conformity' in LCM, and LCM has NO room for 'for the sake of unity'. (BUT they say they are all for ONENESS). I say the 'elders' you face, execute bully in the name of 'their ONENESS'. None and nothing 'for the sake of unity'. They are there to enforce conformity and quarantine non-conformity.
As your quote: God help me. Amen.
Pray to the Lord, obey Him, obey His word.
The Lord Jesus Christ will show you what 'elder' 'shepherd' is.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If ever they will come over my house in order to notify me that I am quarantined that I wasn't able to meet them up. I will directly say to them. If an elder's teaching is inconsistent with God's Word or contradicts it, abusing the flock, lording over others and promoting what materials should be exclusively used, a person is under NO obligation to obey and better he must leave the congregation. False teachers are NOT to be obeyed, but rather rejected! Its is better to obey God rather than mere fallible men. A Christian should not go against the authority of scriptures. Here I stand.

Luther: "Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything."

How ironic!

The so-called RECOVERY supposedly began with this quote by Martin Luther, and now this same quote is being used by the Lord to deliver His children from the oppressive system the so-called Recovery has become.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Kevin

. . . that brought me to the reformed faith. I know a lot of you won't agree everything on reformed theology. However, I asked the in prayer Lord that he would give me a discipler who could help me to grow my relationship with Him.

I have great respect for reformed theology. It is foundational to much of evangelical theology.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I have great respect for reformed theology. It is foundational to much of evangelical theology.

I remember Ron Kangas saying that the biggest opponent to the theology of the Recovery was Reformed Theology.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I remember Ron Kangas saying that the biggest opponent to the theology of the Recovery was Reformed Theology.

Who's Ron Kangas? He's just another opinion among billions. But I liked him a lot at one time. When I could sit in his living room. I understand first hand why he's a leader. He's a well educated smart man. But his wife Susan knew the real Ron, and let's us know it in meetings. She exposed him as a phony.

And I had had enough of Reformed Theology growing up in the Southern Baptist church.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by awareness

And I had had enough of Reformed Theology growing up in the Southern Baptist church.

I think this is not helpful for me. Whom am I really side with?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I think this is not helpful for me. Whom am I really side with?

Side with your own critical thinking bro Kevin. Think for yourself. Hook your wagon to nothing and no one, on this human side. Pull it yourself.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by awareness

Side with your own critical thinking bro Kevin. Think for yourself. Hook your wagon to nothing and no one, on this human side. Pull it yourself.

I got recently irritated with a Leeist arguing with me that Satan indwells in man's fallen flesh. It's already 1:45 in the morning and I can't sleep because of the argument we had, but I couldn't defend myself.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I got recently irritated with a Leeist arguing with me that Satan indwells in man's fallen flesh. It's already 1:45 in the morning and I can't sleep because of the argument we had, but I couldn't defend myself.

So the brother admitted that he believes Satan indwells him. Another reason to not listen to him.

[Kevin]

I just need some prayers for my direction.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I just need some prayers for my direction.

Father God, I lift my brother Kevin up to You. I ask that you speak to him through Your Holy Spirit and give him direction and the courage to carry it out. In Jesus' mighty name. Thank You!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

Father God, I lift my brother Kevin up to You. I ask that you speak to him through Your Holy Spirit and give him direction and the courage to carry it out. In Jesus' mighty name. Thank You!

Echoing this prayer, and saying amen. In Jesus' mighty name indeed

[Kevin]

And so it begins. Just need your prayers

[HERn]

I think the Chief Shepherd as many helper shepherds in many denominations. I attend a huge SB church for family convenience, but I miss the shepherding I had several months ago in a E-free church before I moved. I hope to move back, or maybe find a smaller group here. I'm sure there are many shepherds around here. But, like many have said on this forum "be a supply, blessing, help, or whatever you want to call it wherever you land". Still working it out.

[Guest M]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What should I do tomorrow? I already left the LRC movement. But these elders asked me to face them to recant my doctrinal views. They have no idea what the reformation holds where I am leaning to. All they asked is to submit to their authority. Anyone advice? Should I meet them up to rebuttal my standing? They're gonna quarantine me if I don't repent.

Oh boy. I'm going to respond to this although I haven't made it through all of the other responses yet.

I will simply tell you what I would do, and why.

I would NOT meet with them. At all. And honestly, I would not engage with them or give them access to you...if I were you. the hard part is this is still very new for you. As a compassionate, normal human being, you're going to want to see the best in them, you will want to be heard, you are going to want to believe you're going in on equal footing...but unfortunately, you are not.

This is about control. They have no intention of listening to you. They want to wear you down, or gain something from what you say that will give them an advantage. Worse than that? Well...I don't know these particular people you're dealing with, but I know this behavior, and it's kind of psychic vampirism (for lack of a more Christiany way to say it...sorry).

But I'm serious.

People who are emotional manipulators MUST FEED ON EMOTION. They must engage with you and interact with you to maintain hope of control. As long as they can rile you up and keep you on the defensive, even if you are resisting them, they are still, ultimately, controlling you.

They cannot do that if they don't have access to you.

If you go in there (maybe you have already?) and try to get through it, just to say you tried, more power to you...but just understand that it will come at a cost. The best thing would be for you to get as far away, mentally and emotionally, as you can from their influence. There will be no convincing them.

I know I am making them sound villainous. (They very well may be.) But people doing this stuff to each other is complicated. It is hard to see this kind of thing in people you love, and who you thought loved you...and maybe even who on some level do!

You are going through part of the most painful process of separation, it sounds like...the part where there is still attachment. Call it spiritual, if you will. It is going to hurt. Like withdrawal from addiction.

You are lucky, though, because you found people who can actually give you support!!! You are here. That can shorten and lessen the pain of this time.

I apologize if I am assuming a lot...all I have to go on is what you've described, and my own experience.

It sounds to me like a no-win situation, and in such a case, I would not entertain or give energy to their mechanisms. It is most likely just going to be wheel-spinning and result in further grief for you.

You can still love them from a detached distance, and take care of yourself.

That's my two cents, fwiw.

[Guest M]

So now I've just read your most recent post, and my heart aches for you.

Kevin, you're going to have to accept the fact that no one can tell you the answer to this one. I know when you're vulnerable and hurting, and have been betrayed by people you depended upon and trusted, that is the least perfect time to have only yourself to rely upon.

But the truth is, that's the truth. At the end of the day, you have only your conscience to answer to. Your conscience, and your inner relationship with God, who will not let you down.

Now, deciding something like this while you are likely to take a hard financial impact is really hard. it depends on the person. Some people can stick around in an abusive or hopeless relationship while they plan for a specific moment of departure and put things in place. They're still being harmed, but they are able to stay fixed on their goal until they get out.

Others decide that the harm is not worth it, and it is literally a matter of life and death. I fall more into this camp. You just have to know yourself. Know what you need. What you need you might have to discover by first knowing what you WANT, and being able to recognize and admit it.

My suspicion is you already know your answer. It's just painful to not have made a decision yet, and to not have clarity from others. All anyone can give you is our own experience and opinion. And that is worth something. But still, it's going to have to come down to you. You can't wait to get it signed off. And you don't need to. trust your relationship with God. Trust that voice, that part of God that is in you, and no one else's.

In my experience, once you have named what it is you really feel or know, and make a decision, the pain will be considerably less torturous than it is now while you're hovering in the middle. This is a rip the bandaid off quick situation. You will absolutely have to grieve, and there will be time to grieve. But in the meantime, do what you know is the right thing for you, and know that you don't have to explain it to anyone.

People here I am certain will support you either way. That "mentor" of yours was clearly trying to do exactly that...he's doing the best he can. but he's not you. AND he doesn't have the answers for you. Also? Imho, it's too early for you to find a mentor. You are leaving a situation where you've been emotionally manipulated and controlled, and spiritually taken advantage of. it's going to be lonely, but you really should (again, in my opinion) avoid going directly from that situation into another.

If this sounds like a bad breakup, that's exactly what it is. It hurts, but you will survive it, and ironically, you will feel LESS alone the more you follow your own inner conviction. When you have made a decision, it will be easier for you to have the support you need going through it. it is much more lonely when you want someone to help you tell you which decision to make, and they can't, no matter which way they'd go.

I hope that's SOME help. Holding out hope for you!

[aron]

Originally Posted by GuestM

This is about control. They have no intention of listening to you. They want to wear you down, or gain something from what you say that will give them an advantage. Worse than that? Well...I don't know these particular people you're dealing with, but I know this behavior, and it's kind of psychic vampirism (for lack of a more Christiany way to say it...sorry).

But I'm serious.

People who are emotional manipulators MUST FEED ON EMOTION. They must engage with you and interact with you to maintain hope of control. As long as they can rile you up and keep you on the defensive, even if you are resisting them, they are still, ultimately, controlling you.

They cannot do that if they don't have access to you.

I agree. Don't feed them your soul. Just disengage.

They are not there to learn from you & grow. They manipulate others to please their all-too- human masters.

Pick up a HWMR sometime and look at the outline. Full of need. "We must" and "We should" and "We need to".

[Kevin]

Lord, where would I go?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Lord, where would I go?

Jesus had no place to lay his head. Why should you? Are you a sojourner or not?

His home was in the Father's will. Where is yours?

If you solve the Jesus Puzzle the Church Puzzle will sort itself out right quick. But don't look for answers to the first puzzle within the second one. Remember your LC experience - that should prove my point.

[byHismercy]

Hi saints!

I find myself in the same place, of needing to go on with the Lord and needing a church....but not altogether trusting my own discernment and judgment....but I want to look away unto Jesus forgetting all that, trusting Him to lead me to the right place!

But I wanted to share Justin Peters name with you. You can find him on youtube....his ministry has been blessing me greatly, especially coming from the deception and error of the Local Church...

Justin Peters likes to expound on the bible verse by verse, but he also speaks the truth in love regarding errors in todays churches.....and false things....he really hates the lie!

Anyways, bless all the dear brothers and sisters as they seek to continue on in the fellowship of Christ!

Dear Kevin,

I would recommend T Austin Sparks. He has easily the best writings that I have come across. He is no longer alive. You can get his books cheap on a Kindle or Amazon. I get them on my Kindle for like $1. He is clear and shows great understanding of scripture. He has lots of love that comes out in his writings. I also find got questions.org to be a helpful site. I will try to remember to keep you in prayer.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints!

I find myself in the same place, of needing to go on with the Lord and needing a church....but not altogether trusting my own discernment and judgment....but I want to look away unto Jesus forgetting all that, trusting Him to lead me to the right place!

But I wanted to share Justin Peters name with you. You can find him on youtube....his ministry has been blessing me greatly, especially coming from the deception and error of the Local Church...

Justin Peters likes to expound on the bible verse by verse, but he also speaks the truth in love regarding errors in todays churches.....and false things....he really hates the lie!

Anyways, bless all the dear brothers and sisters as they seek to continue on in the fellowship of Christ!

Hi byHismercy! I really like small groups, because it's there that people really get to know me; and I like group meetings in homes. For some folks small groups are their classes on Sunday morning or Wednesday evening, and that's great. But, my wife and I benefit from the more intimate setting of a small group in a home. It's there that people get to know me and others learn how I share Christ's love and whether I am an open person or not. There is lots of diversity in Christ's body, I think the Holy Spirit will help you feel comfortable in the group that you would thrive in. It's OK to visit and talk to people, and if you find a pastor/shepherd that you can easily talk with, that would be a great plus. I'm glad you're seeking and have not given up!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi byHismercy! I really like small groups, because it's there that people really get to know me; and I like group meetings in homes. For some folks small groups are their classes on Sunday morning or Wednesday evening, and that's great. But, my wife and I benefit from the more intimate setting of a small group in a home. It's there that people get to know me and others learn how I share Christ's love and whether I am an open person or not. There is lots of diversity in Christ's body, I think the Holy Spirit will help you feel comfortable in the group that you would thrive in. It's OK to visit and talk to people, and if you find a pastor/shepherd that you can easily talk with, that would be a great plus. I'm glad you're seeking and have not given up!

Thank you, HERn! I appreciate your sweet encouragement. For so long I completely believed into the Lee lie about his ministry being the only place to find truth, light, and love. Now that it is revealed to be a hoax, I am beginning from scratch....I spent my whole adult life, 20 plus years in the Lee group. It was not too long after I received Christ that I met this group.

Naturally, knowing how easily one can be tricked(everything I see now in the Lee ministry was hidden from me) I guess it is time to move forward with discernment! And I really look forward with antipcipation to sharing in all the portions from each and every saint....Praise Jesus, Himself our portion!