Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Alternative Views - Click Here to Start New Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2017, 03:35 PM   #1
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Did God incite David to Sin?

What does the word incite mean and how is it used in the books of Samuel?

stir up, whip up, encourage, fan the flames of, stoke up, fuel, kindle, ignite, inflame, stimulate, instigate, provoke, excite, arouse, awaken, inspire, engender, trigger, spark off, ferment, foment

Examples — In the example of Miracle on Ice one of the star players of the American team was injured in the game with Russia. He had bruised his thigh and couldn’t move very well. However, if he played it wouldn’t make things worse. The coach in the locker room called him a “candy ass” because he had a boo boo on his leg. This inflamed him into a rage. However, it worked, he had a huge assist on a goal in the game and inspired the rest of the team.

A negative example. When Mohammed Ali reported to the draft they called him Cassius Clay even though he had changed his name. This name provoked him, he saw it as his slave master’s name and going into the military was merely submitting to his former slave masters. He refused to answer the call.

Another example is Joe Montana and his coach. Joe Montana has been selected as the greatest quarterback to play the game, yet his coach stimulated him with the threat of being benched and replaced by the second string quarterback, Steve Young, another hall of fame quarterback.

Biblical examples in the Books of Samuel:

1Sam 1: Jehovah shut up Hannah’s womb. First, having a situation with two wives of one man is certainly a recipe for a lot of contention and strife. Add to this the favoritism where the husband gives one wife a double portion and you know it will provoke and goad the one woman against the other. The final straw would be the husbands remark “am not I better than ten sons”. We have been saved for a purpose, we need to function. There are two possibilities here, both equally onerous. One is that Hannah was the first wife but when she wouldn’t conceive her husband took a second wife who now had a bunch of sons and was ridiculing her to the uttermost. Similar to the situation Sarah was in. On the other hand Hannah might be the second wife, the younger, prettier wife that the husband doesn’t care if she has sons. He basically discarded the first wife and relegated her to second class status when he married her. In this situation this statement would also be extremely provocative, as though he is saying “I didn’t marry you to have sons, I already have sons”. She would realize she agreed to this situation that now she abhors. What happens in ten years when she doesn’t have any sons and he finds a third wife?

Hannah’s husband is inciting her, his other wife is also inciting her, and of course God incited everything by shutting up her womb.

The only way out of this situation for Hannah is to have sons, and it is God who shut up her womb. Maybe Hannah was very attractive and was courted by many men, perhaps she was very proud and felt she had chosen the wealthiest and best husband. Now she is being humbled beneath he mighty hand of God. Unless God opens her womb her life is going to be a train wreck and she can see it coming.

Why would God do such a thing? Simple, God needs a man and to get one He is going to need someone to make a free will offering. Eli is his priest and he has clearly gone off track. God can see the profligate sons and realizes they are polluting his temple (they referred to the Tabernacle as a temple since it was no longer traveling around).

This is what the book of Samuel is about. God needs a priest, He needs a king, He needs a place to put His name. The sins of the Priest and His people are inciting Him. On the other hand man also needs to have a function, to bring forth fruit for the future, to put an end to the insults and disrespect of the surrounding nations. God needs a people that trust in Him, not the flesh. Man needs a way to make peace for the errors and mistakes they have made.

1Sam 3:18And Samuel told him every whit, and hid nothing from him. And he said, It is Jehovah: let him do what seemeth him good.

Can you imagine a more in your face way to incite someone than having this little child tell Samuel to his face, as only a child can, what was going to happen? Look at Eli’s response. Did it “fan into flames”, “ignite”, “inflame”, “provoke”, etc? No, his response is like a wet towel — “let him do what seems to him good”, you want to puke Eli out. He is not hot, nor cold, but lukewarm, a wet towel.

5Now the Philistines had taken the ark of God, and they brought it from Eben-ezer unto Ashdod. 2And the Philistines took the ark of God, and brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon. 3And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen [a]upon his face to the ground before the ark of Jehovah. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again. 4And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen [b]upon his face to the ground before the ark of Jehovah; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands lay cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him. 5Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon’s house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod, unto this day.

Now this is straight out of the High School Homecoming celebration. Talk about inciting. The God’s of the gentiles are face down, Dagon is nothing but a stump. Giving the people tumors. This provoked, aroused, inspired the Gentiles.

6:2And the Philistines called for the priests and the diviners, saying, What shall we do with the ark of Jehovah? show us wherewith we shall send it to its place. 3*And they said, If ye send away the ark of the God of Israel, send it not empty; but by all means return him a trespass-offering: then ye shall be healed, and it shall be known to you why his hand is not removed from you.

This is the right action. The Lord wants to get their attention and does, He wants them to repent of their trespass, they do that. There there is a right way to give a trespass offering. Hannah gave her son as an offering. Eli didn’t care that his sons were going to be given as an offering. The Gentiles give a trespass offering. Later David will give the price for the ground of the Temple as a peace offering.

1Sam 7:5And Samuel said, Gather all Israel to Mizpah, and I will pray for you unto Jehovah. 6And they gathered together to Mizpah, and drew water, and poured it out before Jehovah, and fasted on that day, and said there, We have sinned against Jehovah.

When the ark was returned some men had the audacity to look into the Ark of the Covenant so about 50,000 men were struck and killed. It is just one arrogant act after another.

1Sam 10:17And Samuel called the people together unto Jehovah to Mizpah; 18and he said unto the children of Israel, Thus saith Jehovah, the God of Israel, I brought up Israel out of Egypt, and I delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of all the kingdoms that oppressed you: 19but ye have this day rejected your God, who himself saveth you out of all your calamities and your distresses; and ye have said unto him, Nay, but set a king over us.

Once again, we see Israel thumbing their nose at the Lord by picking a king. We see sin, and ego provoking and inciting God. In each instance He responds.

1Sam 12:7Now therefore stand still, that I may plead with you before Jehovah concerning all the righteous acts of Jehovah, which he did to you and to your fathers. 8When Jacob was come into Egypt, and your fathers cried unto Jehovah, then Jehovah sent Moses and Aaron, who brought forth your fathers out of Egypt, and made them to dwell in this place. 9But they forgat Jehovah their God; and he sold them into the hand of Sisera, captain of the host of Hazor, and into the hand of the Philistines, and into the hand of the king of Moab; and they fought against them. 10And they cried unto Jehovah, and said, We have sinned, because we have forsaken Jehovah, and have served the Baalim and the Ashtaroth: but now deliver us out of the hand of our enemies, and we will serve thee. 11And Jehovah sent Jerubbaal, and [d]Bedan, and Jephthah, and Samuel, and delivered you out of the hand of your enemies on every side; and ye dwelt in safety. 12And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay, but a king shall reign over us; when Jehovah your God was your king. 13Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have asked for: and, behold, Jehovah hath set a king over you. 14If ye will fear Jehovah, and serve him, and hearken unto his voice, and not rebel against the commandment of Jehovah, [e]and both ye and also the king that reigneth over you be followers of Jehovah your God, well: 15but if ye will not hearken unto the voice of Jehovah, but rebel against the commandment of Jehovah, then will the hand of Jehovah be against you, as it was against your fathers. 16Now therefore stand still and see this great thing, which Jehovah will do before your eyes. 17Is it not wheat harvest to-day? I will call unto Jehovah, that he may send thunder and rain; and ye shall know and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of Jehovah, in asking you a king. 18So Samuel called unto Jehovah; and Jehovah sent thunder and rain that day: and all the people greatly feared Jehovah and Samuel.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2017, 07:23 PM   #2
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Biblical examples in the Books of Samuel:

1Sam 1: Jehovah shut up Hannah’s womb. First, having a situation with two wives of one man is certainly a recipe for a lot of contention and strife.
When God shut up Hannah's womb He incited her to offer up her firstborn as a free will offering. He did not incite her to sin.

However, her husband taking a second wife can be seen as contrary to God's original plan of man and woman being one flesh. His act might have been faithless if Hannah was the first wife and was unable to conceive, or it may have been due to lust if she was the second wife, it is hard to know and not really of interest in the story other than it led to Hannah being in this very untenable situation. There is no reason to think that God's action couldn't have incited him to prayer as well. Instead we could conclude safely that Satan used the situation created by God to take advantage of his flesh or lack of faith.

Likewise the treatment from the other wife might have been predictable, but once again was not the intent. If Hannah is the second wife then you could view her treatment as her reaping what she sowed. If she is the first wife then her treatment by this woman is the reaping of what her husband sowed. Once again you have an opportunity for Satan to push people to sin due to their lack of faith or flesh.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 06:50 AM   #3
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Likewise when God sent this little child Samuel as a free will offering to the Temple, and then as a young child spoke to Him all that He was going to do to Eli, knowing that the boy would tell Eli this. That was a major slap to the face of Eli. You could say that God incited Eli.

God generally used prophets, but for Eli He used a child to rebuke him, and with Balaam He used a donkey.

If you read the story it is clear that Eli knew he was in trouble, he knew that God had told something to Samuel concerning his judgement, so he was aware of his sin.

But compare his action of "let Him do what seemeth good" to David's response to his sin.

24:10And David’s heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto Jehovah, I have sinned greatly in that which I have done: but now, O Jehovah, put away, I beseech thee, the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. 11And when David rose up in the morning, the word of Jehovah came unto the prophet Gad, David’s seer, saying, 12Go and speak unto David, Thus saith Jehovah, I offer thee three things: choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. 13So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thy foes while they pursue thee? or shall there be three days’ pestilence in thy land? now advise thee, and consider what answer I shall return to him that sent me. 14And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of Jehovah; for his mercies are great; and let me not fall into the hand of man.

This is the proper response.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 09:05 AM   #4
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

You're evading the facts. Yes, according to II Samuel, God incited David to Sin.
Quote:

The Lord burned with anger against Israel again, and he incited David against them: Go and count the people of Israel and Judah. 2 Sam. 24:1 Common English Bible (CEB).
Quote:
But after this David felt terrible that he had counted the people. David said to the Lord, “I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, please take away the guilt of your servant because I have done something very foolish.” 2 Samuel 24:10 Common English Bible (CEB)
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 11:15 AM   #5
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
You're evading the facts. Yes, according to II Samuel, God incited David to Sin.
How have I evaded the facts? You are referring to the two quotes that I posted as the facts. Therefore I haven't evaded anything, I posted those quotes.

My point is this

Did Hannah's husband sin in taking a second wife? It seems to me to be a violation of Genesis 1 and it is very possible that he was incited to sin when the Lord shut up Hannah's womb. That doesn't mean that the Lord incited him to sin. It should have prompted him to pray, but his actions revealed that he was weak in the faith and/or flesh.

The Lord's speaking to David was clearly not a sin, otherwise David wouldn't have felt guilty for doing it. There is no sense at all from the verses that David was being obedient to God's command when he did this.

That is the point you are evading. If David was ordered by God to number the people why did he then repent and say he had sinned? Why does the prophet come and tell David he had sinned and was going to reap what he sowed? Why does David acknowledge that he had sinned, that he was guilty and plead for the mercy of the Lord?

I am looking at the entire context and you are trying to focus in so tightly that you ignore all of the exculpatory evidence.

So please explain 2 Sam 24:10 "David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, please take away the guilt of your servant because I have done something very foolish."

Clearly David's action was not obedience to the Lord's command. Incite does not mean command. That is why I begin with the definition. Those of you who are reading that the Lord sinned are reading "incite" to be equal to "command". The Lord incited David to act, that is true, that doesn't mean He incited him to sin. David chose to sin, that is also the very clear reading of this section. What David should have done originally and what he ultimately did in the end, is to repent of his arrogance and pride in thinking that his hand delivered him. If you read the chapter you realize that God's actions incited this repentance. God's anger burned because He saw the pride in David's heart.

You can have a sinful thought in your heart, repent of it and move on. You can also act on that thought and then the repentance is that much more difficult.

For example: John 13:27 And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.

Jesus did not command Judas to sin, but He did push him, or incite him, to do what he had already decided to do in his heart, to do it quickly.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 01:32 PM   #6
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
You're evading the facts. Yes, according to II Samuel, God incited David to Sin.
We decide, sometimes will-nilly, what we accept as the word of God or not in the Bible. Therefore, let's just reject II Samuel 24:1, and following storyline, as fake words of God. Problem solved.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 01:37 PM   #7
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The Lord's speaking to David was clearly not a sin, otherwise David wouldn't have felt guilty for doing it.
The narrator states that the Lord incited David to count the people. It doesn't say that David knew that it was the Lord inciting him.

Quote:
There is no sense at all from the verses that David was being obedient to God's command when he did this.
Yes there is a sense that David was being obedient; that is, when the Lord incited him to count the people, he counted them. You can't get any more obedient than that! You would deny the nose on your face.

Quote:
That is the point you are evading. If David was ordered by God to number the people why did he then repent and say he had sinned?
Don't forget, the Lord repented too:

And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented of the evil, and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough: stay now thine hand.” 2 Sam. 24:16

Quote:
Why does the prophet come and tell David he had sinned and was going to reap what he sowed? Why does David acknowledge that he had sinned, that he was guilty and plead for the mercy of the Lord?
Yes, it appears inconsistent. That's why the Chronicler made Satan the culprit.

Quote:
So please explain 2 Sam 24:10 "David said to the Lord, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. Now, Lord, please take away the guilt of your servant because I have done something very foolish."
He didn't know it was the Lord who incited him. God hid himself. Isaiah 45:15 says:
Quote:
Truly You are God, who hide Yourself, O God of Israel, the Savior!
Quote:
Clearly David's action was not obedience to the Lord's command. Incite does not mean command. That is why I begin with the definition. Those of you who are reading that the Lord sinned are reading "incite" to be equal to "command". The Lord incited David to act, that is true, that doesn't mean He incited him to sin.
To incite is more immediate than a mere command. It works on motivation from within like when the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. That was evil too, by the way.

Quote:
David chose to sin, that is also the very clear reading of this section. What David should have done originally and what he ultimately did in the end, is to repent of his arrogance and pride in thinking that his hand delivered him. If you read the chapter you realize that God's actions incited this repentance. God's anger burned because He saw the pride in David's heart.
Where do you get that it was due to pride? The text says the Lord did it because he was angry at the people again.

Quote:
You can have a sinful thought in your heart, repent of it and move on. You can also act on that thought and then the repentance is that much more difficult.
But the Lord didn't do that, according to the text. He sent an angel to execute 70,000 people before he got a grip on himself and repented.

Quote:
For example: John 13:27 And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.

Jesus did not command Judas to sin, but He did push him, or incite him, to do what he had already decided to do in his heart, to do it quickly.

You could not have picked a more problematic example. After all, Judas was doing God's will. So, God must have been commanding him or inciting him to betray the Christ.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 02:33 PM   #8
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
The narrator states that the Lord incited David to count the people. It doesn't say that David knew that it was the Lord inciting him.
The writer of Samuel knew. How did the writer know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Yes there is a sense that David was being obedient; that is, when the Lord incited him to count the people, he counted them. You can't get any more obedient than that! You would deny the nose on your face.
I'm not the one denying it. So to be clear, your explanation for David's repentance is that he didn't know that it was the Lord who incited him? Wow, that is a very insidious view of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Don't forget, the Lord repented too:

And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord repented of the evil, and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough: stay now thine hand.” 2 Sam. 24:16


Yes, it appears inconsistent. That's why the Chronicler made Satan the culprit.
This is the reason I have rejected your interpretation. You always have to tell us "why the Chronicler" "made" Satan the culprit. So no longer is it a chronicle of what happened, it is merely fiction, written by the PR wing of the Israeli government. You see the OT as religious spin on their history to justify their actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
He didn't know it was the Lord who incited him. God hid himself. Isaiah 45:15 says:

To incite is more immediate than a mere command. It works on motivation from within like when the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. That was evil too, by the way.
So in your interpretation you have to make it so that David didn't know that it was the Lord who incited him, even though this is a historical account that should have used David's own recollection or diary as a primary source.

Did the Lord know? If the Lord did know then according to your interpretation God is secretly, in a hidden way, inciting the leaders of Israel to commit sin, then punishing them for their sins when they come repenting to Him for their sin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Where do you get that it was due to pride? The text says the Lord did it because he was angry at the people again.
What caused the anger? The word says "again" which can refer to the most recent case with the Gibeonites, or it can refer to all of the cases in the books of Samuel. Either way the context is man's pride and arrogance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
But the Lord didn't do that, according to the text. He sent an angel to execute 70,000 people before he got a grip on himself and repented.

You could not have picked a more problematic example. After all, Judas was doing God's will. So, God must have been commanding him or inciting him to betray the Christ.
It is an excellent example. What Judas did was a sin. Jesus didn't incite him to sin, we know this from the account in the Gospels that he had already had this idea in his heart and explored it with the Pharisees.

The Lord was angry with David, perhaps just like Judas he had already conceived of the sin in his heart and explored it without actually acting it out.

What does Jesus do? What does it mean to say "what you are going to do, do quickly". Is that a command, or would that be better described as "to incite". It can't be a command because you aren't telling them what to do. "do what you are going to do", you could say this to anyone, I could say this to Trump. I am not commanding him. No, this is an example of Jesus inciting Judas who then went and sinned. Jesus didn't incite him to sin, only to act.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 09:20 PM   #9
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
. . . this is an example of Jesus inciting Judas who then went and sinned. Jesus didn't incite him to sin, only to act.
Without Judas betraying Jesus there would be no salvation; no cross no death; no cross no resurrection: no cross no salvation; no kiss no cross.

So Judas was the most loyal to Jesus and his mission of the salvation of the whole world, and paid the highest price to accomplish it ; more than all the other disciples, not only with is his life, but his reputation and historic legend too ; forever to be considered the epitome of evil. He laid it all down for the salvation of the whole world ; "greater love."

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
John 13:27 And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.

Jesus did not command Judas to sin, but He did push him, or incite him, to do what he had already decided to do in his heart, to do it quickly.
So God used both Satan and sin to accomplish His salvation?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 09:40 PM   #10
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The writer of Samuel knew. How did the writer know?
He doesn't tell us. The story is written from the third-person omniscient (or simply omniscient) perspective. A story in this narrative mode is presented by a narrator with an overarching point of view(POV), seeing and knowing everything that happens within the world of the story, including what each of the characters is thinking and feeling. That POV does not, indeed cannot reveal how the facts were observed, because this mode of narration is inconsistent with human experience which is limited, fragmented and incomplete.

You're assuming the author knew with certainty the putative facts of the subject matter. Why?



Quote:
I'm not the one denying it. So to be clear, your explanation for David's repentance is that he didn't know that it was the Lord who incited him? Wow, that is a very insidious view of God.
It teaches a profound lesson about God, i.e., we are not conscious of most of what God does even in our own lives. Indeed, most of what we do is unconscious to ourselves.

Quote:
This is the reason I have rejected your interpretation. You always have to tell us "why the Chronicler" "made" Satan the culprit. So no longer is it a chronicle of what happened, it is merely fiction, written by the PR wing of the Israeli government. You see the OT as religious spin on their history to justify their actions.
I understand your hesitancy. It isn't that I am proposing the story is fiction. I do suppose that the Chronicler was working from the text of Samuel, Kings and other books or earlier texts that were the sources of both Samuel and Chronicles. I also assume that he was exercising human judgment, imagination, ideology and inspiration.

Quote:
So in your interpretation you have to make it so that David didn't know that it was the Lord who incited him, even though this is a historical account that should have used David's own recollection or diary as a primary source.
I don't know of any evidence showing that David was a primary source. According to Wiki, David is supposed to have reigned @ 1010–970 BCE; Samuel to have been written @ 630–540 BC by combining a number of independent texts of various ages; and Chronicles @ 350–300 BC through a similar process. I don't see how one could do better than speculate about whether any of the material is autobiographical. That might be fun but ultimately inconclusive.

Quote:
Did the Lord know? If the Lord did know then according to your interpretation God is secretly, in a hidden way, inciting the leaders of Israel to commit sin, then punishing them for their sins when they come repenting to Him for their sin.
No wonder the Chronicler changed the narrative. How can that conclusion be avoided?


Quote:
What caused the anger? The word says "again" which can refer to the most recent case with the Gibeonites, or it can refer to all of the cases in the books of Samuel. Either way the context is man's pride and arrogance.
The Lord was repeatedly angry so I suppose it refers to all the cases. That story of the Gibeonites is ethically challenged as well. The Gibeonites are placated when David offers Saul's seven son's for execution as paybacks for Saul's crimes against them. How is that just? Yet, the text says " And after that God heeded the prayer for the land." Executing the children of a murderer is fundamentally wrong. But, shockingly, in the primitive moral universe of Samuel it's acceptable!?! Let me see you explain that.


Quote:
It is an excellent example. What Judas did was a sin. Jesus didn't incite him to sin, we know this from the account in the Gospels that he had already had this idea in his heart and explored it with the Pharisees.
If Jesus were not crucified, how would anyone be redeemed? Wasn't Judas' betrayal of Jesus part of God's divine plan of redemption?

Quote:
The Lord was angry with David, perhaps just like Judas he had already conceived of the sin in his heart and explored it without actually acting it out.
Unless the text says that, you're just making stuff up. When you don't know, isn't it better to acknowledge it?

Quote:
What does Jesus do? What does it mean to say "what you are going to do, do quickly". Is that a command, or would that be better described as "to incite". It can't be a command because you aren't telling them what to do. "do what you are going to do", you could say this to anyone, I could say this to Trump. I am not commanding him. No, this is an example of Jesus inciting Judas who then went and sinned. Jesus didn't incite him to sin, only to act.
The synoptic Gospels don't say. John 13:2 says
Quote:
And supper being ended, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him...
Of course, the devil, in this instance, was serving God's eternal purpose too.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2017, 10:07 PM   #11
Evangelical
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,979
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Without Judas betraying Jesus there would be no salvation; no cross no death; no cross no resurrection: no cross no salvation; no kiss no cross.

So Judas was the most loyal to Jesus and his mission of the salvation of the whole world, and paid the highest price to accomplish it ; more than all the other disciples, not only with is his life, but his reputation and historic legend too ; forever to be considered the epitome of evil. He laid it all down for the salvation of the whole world ; "greater love."


So God used both Satan and sin to accomplish His salvation?
I don't agree that Judas was crucial to Jesus going to the cross and God's salvation plan. Jesus would still have gone to the cross even if Judas did not betray him. They would have found another way. Judas had nothing to do with convincing them that they should kill Jesus - Jesus was a marked man already. They had tried to have Jesus killed before, and were unsuccessful.
Evangelical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2017, 09:42 AM   #12
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I don't agree that Judas was crucial to Jesus going to the cross and God's salvation plan. Jesus would still have gone to the cross even if Judas did not betray him. They would have found another way. Judas had nothing to do with convincing them that they should kill Jesus - Jesus was a marked man already. They had tried to have Jesus killed before, and were unsuccessful.
We don't know the actual history. So why is Judas or Jesus in the story? Judas is in all four gospel witnesses. He's a key player in the purpose of God.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2017, 09:53 AM   #13
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Without Judas betraying Jesus there would be no salvation; no cross no death; no cross no resurrection: no cross no salvation; no kiss no cross.

So Judas was the most loyal to Jesus and his mission of the salvation of the whole world, and paid the highest price to accomplish it ; more than all the other disciples, not only with is his life, but his reputation and historic legend too ; forever to be considered the epitome of evil. He laid it all down for the salvation of the whole world ; "greater love."


So God used both Satan and sin to accomplish His salvation?
Without sin there would be no need for salvation. Your argument is idiotic.

It is like saying that cancer is the most loyal servant of the oncologist.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2017, 10:09 AM   #14
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
The synoptic Gospels don't say. John 13:2 says Of course, the devil, in this instance, was serving God's eternal purpose too.
Matthew 26:14*Then one of the twelve, he who was called Judas Iscariote, went to the chief priests
15*and said, What are ye willing to give me, and *I* will deliver him up to you? And they appointed to him thirty pieces of silver.
16*And from that time he sought a good opportunity that he might deliver him up. (see also Mark 14:10)

Luke 22:3*And Satan entered into Judas, who was surnamed Iscariote, being of the number of the twelve.
4*And he went away and spoke with the chief priests and captains as to how he should deliver him up to them.
5*And they were rejoiced, and agreed to give him money.

John 13:2*And during supper, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas [son] of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up…
18*I speak not of you all. I know those whom I have chosen; but that the scripture might be fulfilled, He that eats bread with me has lifted up his heel against me.
19*I tell you [it] now before it happens, that when it happens, ye may believe that I am [he]…
24*Simon Peter makes a sign therefore to him to ask who it might be of whom he spoke.
25*But he, leaning on the breast of Jesus, says to him, Lord, who is it?
26*Jesus answers, He it is to whom I, after I have dipped the morsel, give it. And having dipped the morsel, he gives it to Judas [son] of Simon, Iscariote.
27*And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.

The account of Judas is very precise, recorded by every gospel. Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus, he had already made this decision to act in this way, then Jesus incited Judas to act quickly.

This is a central example to gospel. It demonstrates how Satan moves against the prince of God (Israel / Jesus). You can see that Jesus incites Judas to act, but that the decision to sin took place when Satan entered him.

Likewise with the book of Samuel and Chronicles you can see that David's act was also incited by both Satan and the Lord.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2017, 10:47 AM   #15
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah
The writer of Samuel knew. How did the writer know?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek
He doesn't tell us. The story is written from the third-person omniscient (or simply omniscient) perspective. A story in this narrative mode is presented by a narrator with an overarching point of view(POV), seeing and knowing everything that happens within the world of the story, including what each of the characters is thinking and feeling. That POV does not, indeed cannot reveal how the facts were observed, because this mode of narration is inconsistent with human experience which is limited, fragmented and incomplete.

You're assuming the author knew with certainty the putative facts of the subject matter. Why?
The most likely answer to ZNP's question is that the author is writing from oral history, passed on down the line for hundreds of years. That is clearly the case for Chronicles, written hundreds of years after Samuel.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2017, 11:34 AM   #16
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Matthew 26:14*Then one of the twelve, he who was called Judas Iscariote, went to the chief priests
15*and said, What are ye willing to give me, and *I* will deliver him up to you? And they appointed to him thirty pieces of silver.
16*And from that time he sought a good opportunity that he might deliver him up. (see also Mark 14:10)

Luke 22:3*And Satan entered into Judas, who was surnamed Iscariote, being of the number of the twelve.
4*And he went away and spoke with the chief priests and captains as to how he should deliver him up to them.
5*And they were rejoiced, and agreed to give him money.

John 13:2*And during supper, the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas [son] of Simon, Iscariote, that he should deliver him up…
18*I speak not of you all. I know those whom I have chosen; but that the scripture might be fulfilled, He that eats bread with me has lifted up his heel against me.
19*I tell you [it] now before it happens, that when it happens, ye may believe that I am [he]…
24*Simon Peter makes a sign therefore to him to ask who it might be of whom he spoke.
25*But he, leaning on the breast of Jesus, says to him, Lord, who is it?
26*Jesus answers, He it is to whom I, after I have dipped the morsel, give it. And having dipped the morsel, he gives it to Judas [son] of Simon, Iscariote.
27*And, after the morsel, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore says to him, What thou doest, do quickly.
Quote:
The account of Judas is very precise, recorded by every gospel. Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus, he had already made this decision to act in this way, then Jesus incited Judas to act quickly.
None of the Gospels tell us why Judas did what he did. Mark and Matthew say nothing about his motivation whatsoever. Luke and John give two differing accounts of Judas' motivation. None explain his reasoning, leaving people to speculate over the centuries.

Quote:
This is a central example to gospel. It demonstrates how Satan moves against the prince of God (Israel / Jesus). You can see that Jesus incites Judas to act, but that the decision to sin took place when Satan entered him.
None of the Gospels say that incited Judas.

Quote:
Likewise with the book of Samuel and Chronicles you can see that David's act was also incited by both Satan and the Lord.
So Satan and the Lord were on the same team? Doesn't that seem a little incongruous to you?

Why is this question important to you?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2017, 02:13 PM   #17
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
None of the Gospels tell us why Judas did what he did. Mark and Matthew say nothing about his motivation whatsoever. Luke and John give two differing accounts of Judas' motivation. None explain his reasoning, leaving people to speculate over the centuries.

None of the Gospels say that incited Judas.

So Satan and the Lord were on the same team? Doesn't that seem a little incongruous to you?

Why is this question important to you?
"And Satan entered Judas" Luke 22:3

"the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas" John 13:2

"Satan and the Lord were on the same team" in the same way that Matt Ryan and Tom Brady were on the same team. Playing in the same game doesn't put you on the same team.

Nothing incongruous about them both playing in the same game.

Jesus is going to the cross to save man. Satan is trying to stop Him.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2017, 09:29 PM   #18
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
"And Satan entered Judas" Luke 22:3

"the devil having already put it into the heart of Judas" John 13:2

"Satan and the Lord were on the same team" in the same way that Matt Ryan and Tom Brady were on the same team. Playing in the same game doesn't put you on the same team. Nothing incongruous about them both playing in the same game.
The story contributes to the longstanding notion that Satan is stupid, since he was contributing to his own demise on the cross. But, in fairness, the cross doesn't seem to have set him back. He still "playing' as you put it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Jesus is going to the cross to save man. Satan is trying to stop Him.
Trying to stop Him? No, Satan helped get Him to the cross through Judas' action.

So, we have a couple demonological propositions, but, no psychological explanation for Judas' betrayal. So, according to John, Judas might have resisted the thought Satan put in his mind. But, according to Luke, Satan possessed him. So, according to Luke, Judas wouldn't be responsible for his action and ethical judgment must be precluded.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 05:25 AM   #19
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Trying to stop Him? No, Satan helped get Him to the cross through Judas' action.
I meant trying to stop Him from saving man. The cross was foolishness to the wise and powerful.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 08:28 AM   #20
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Without sin there would be no need for salvation. Your argument is idiotic.
That's a good one ZNP. But it wasn't an argument. Did you notice the question mark?

But I'm glad you see the illogic in God using Satan and sin for his purpose. It wouldn't be the first time.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 09:11 AM   #21
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Without Judas betraying Jesus there would be no salvation; no cross no death; no cross no resurrection: no cross no salvation; no kiss no cross.

So Judas was the most loyal to Jesus and his mission of the salvation of the whole world, and paid the highest price to accomplish it ; more than all the other disciples, not only with is his life, but his reputation and historic legend too ; forever to be considered the epitome of evil. He laid it all down for the salvation of the whole world ; "greater love."


So God used both Satan and sin to accomplish His salvation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Without sin there would be no need for salvation. Your argument is idiotic.

It is like saying that cancer is the most loyal servant of the oncologist.
That brings us back to the POE. God as the omnipotent creator of everything must be responsible for the existence of sin and Satan too.

Cancer is in deed the servant of the oncologist, for without it the oncologist would have no reason for being. Without sin there is no need for a savior.

Without a savior, how would God be glorified?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 10:07 AM   #22
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
"And Satan entered Judas" Luke 22:3
How does the author know that? I thought Satan is invisible.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 10:23 AM   #23
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

So I guess by ZNP's logic God is idiotic. I agree that it sure seems God does have if not an idiotic streak at least a questionable streak.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 04:36 PM   #24
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
That brings us back to the POE. God as the omnipotent creator of everything must be responsible for the existence of sin and Satan too.

Cancer is in deed the servant of the oncologist, for without it the oncologist would have no reason for being. Without sin there is no need for a savior.

Without a savior, how would God be glorified?
Which is why I have created this thread to ignore these great philosophical debates which gloss over the Bible. This thread is focused on a key plank supporting the POE, that God incited David to sin in Samuel. I just want to examine that question because if it is true it completely undermines the Bible in many ways. On the other hand if it is not true it reveals how truly weak the POE argument is.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 04:37 PM   #25
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
How does the author know that? I thought Satan is invisible.
I thought the word of God meant that God was the author.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 04:43 PM   #26
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
So I guess by ZNP's logic God is idiotic. I agree that it sure seems God does have if not an idiotic streak at least a questionable streak.
My logic was this:

You said that God used Sin and Satan to accomplish His salvation.

I said that without Sin and Satan there would be no need for salvation.

This argument was like saying that the New England Patriots used the Atlanta Falcons to win their 5th Superbowl. There is no doubt that the opponent is a critical component of the competition. But your spin is trying to make Matt Ryan some kind of player on the Patriot's team. That inference is insulting and idiotic. If I was Matt Ryan I would be outraged at the allegation and demand solid proof, otherwise it is slander and libelous.

To say that you cannot talk about salvation without talking about Sin and Satan is fine, but to then take this to some kind of extreme that therefore Sin and Satan are "the most obedient servants" to the Lord is ugly slander.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2017, 08:01 PM   #27
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I thought the word of God meant that God was the author.
The gospel called Luke opens up that the author was drawing from sources he gathered together from preexisting stories. So it was not written by God but by the anonymous author of the gospel that was eventually attributed to Luke, in the 2nd century.

So again, how did the author, whoever it was, know Satan entered into Judas?

Literally, no one could have seen such a fantastical thing take place. It was not possible to see it or know it. But just as we can't fault them for not know the cosmos as we do today, we can't fault them for living in the days when such mythological symbols, and personifications -- such as an invisible omnipresent and omniscient evil entity -- were considered real and factual.

The author was writing to an audience that were presupposed to such fantastical stories, and expected -- longed for -- such far flung flourishes in accounts. He couldn't help telling such a story, any more than he could help not knowing the universe. Our knowledge and ability to know is limited today. But not anywhere close to their limitations, 2000 years ago. And the less we know the more we attribute things and events to invisible spirits. It's called animism. The first, and pretty much universal, religion in our prehistorical past.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2017, 05:27 AM   #28
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Which is why I have created this thread to ignore these great philosophical debates which gloss over the Bible. This thread is focused on a key plank supporting the POE, that God incited David to sin in Samuel. I just want to examine that question because if it is true it completely undermines the Bible in many ways. On the other hand if it is not true it reveals how truly weak the POE argument is.
"Gloss over"? Meaning "to cover up a mistake or a crime; to hush up or whitewash?" If anybody here is whitewashing the Bible, it's you.

No one has asserted that Samuel is a "key plank supporting the POE." That's your idea.

You've talked all around II Samuel 24:1. But, there seems to be no way to dismiss what it actually says: i.e. that the Lord incited David to number the children of Israel which the people in the story, God included, thought was a sin for some reason.

The Chronicler apparently thought it was a textual error , so he changed it. Or, maybe it was an textual error and the Chronicler was working from a different text where it was said that Satan incited David.

II Samuel 24:1 vs. I Chronicles 21:1 is more significant as a problem for Biblical inerrancy proposition than it is as evidence for the POE. After all, the problem of evil gets it's impetus from the actual presence of evil in the world regardless what the Bible says about it.

Even granting that census taking was a sin, why kill 70,000 innocent people over it? Maybe the author was trying to make sense of a natural calamity that struck Israel. If so, he failed, IMO. How does attributing a deadly epidemic to God relieve the suffering or perplexity it caused?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2017, 07:11 AM   #29
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
"Gloss over"? Meaning "to cover up a mistake or a crime; to hush up or whitewash?" If anybody here is whitewashing the Bible, it's you.

No one has asserted that Samuel is a "key plank supporting the POE." That's your idea.

You've talked all around II Samuel 24:1. But, there seems to be no way to dismiss what it actually says: i.e. that the Lord incited David to number the children of Israel which the people in the story, God included, thought was a sin for some reason.

The Chronicler apparently thought it was a textual error , so he changed it. Or, maybe it was an textual error and the Chronicler was working from a different text where it was said that Satan incited David.

II Samuel 24:1 vs. I Chronicles 21:1 is more significant as a problem for Biblical inerrancy proposition than it is as evidence for the POE. After all, the problem of evil gets it's impetus from the actual presence of evil in the world regardless what the Bible says about it.

Even granting that census taking was a sin, why kill 70,000 innocent people over it? Maybe the author was trying to make sense of a natural calamity that struck Israel. If so, he failed, IMO. How does attributing a deadly epidemic to God relieve the suffering or perplexity it caused?
I haven't glossed over anything, nor have I disputed what it actually says (which some commentators and translators do). I have posted the relevant verses.

I agree that the Lord incited David to number the people. I also agree that the Lord incited Judas to betray him.

The word incite does not mean to command. Rather it means what is recorded in the gospels when Jesus said "What you do, do quickly".

You are the one jumping to assumptions. You assume that the writer of Chronicles "apparently thought it was a textual error". I don't make this assumption. You make the assumption that the Bible's reference to the Lord inciting David is equivalent to the Bible's reference to Satan inciting David. I don't make this leap. I take the much more logical and reasonable assumption that when it says the Lord and Satan it means the Lord and Satan. Just as the gospels show that Judas was moved by both the Lord and Satan it is perfectly reasonable to understand that both the Lord and Satan could have incited David.

I have been addressing the question of "why kill 70,000 people over it" which I feel requires the understanding of the context clues more than a simple definition of what is meant by "incite".

Do you think that the ego of a king or president can result in the death of their citizens? I think it can.

Do you think that a plague which is always the result of unclean habits, can expose the pride and arrogance of a civilization and cause them to repent? I do.

The temple and priesthood established many health practices that dealt with public health issues. Setting up the temple is a very positive response to a health crisis like a plague.

This plague travelled from Dan to Jerusalem in three days. Unless they had a huge distribution of food or water that could not have been the vector. It immediately took place after people had been sent throughout the land to number the people. That could have certainly and logically been the vector. Jerusalem was a large city and therefore the people were exposed to many more diseases and developed immunity to many more diseases than those living in a rural setting. This is what happened to the American Indians, and other native people when those from Europe came. If the census takers transmitted a disease like chicken pox, or mumps to adults who had no immunity this could easily explain a "pestilence" that was on the land for 3 days. This would also explain how ordering the census resulted in the death of 70,000.

Ex 30:12When thou shalt take the sum of the children of Israel according to those of them that are numbered, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul to Jehovah on their being numbered, that there be no plague among them on their being numbered.

Give every one a ransom of his soul. There are two aspects to a census, on one hand it tells you how big and powerful your country is. We know the US has 350 million, we know how big our GDP, we know how we rank among other countries, etc. All of these things stroke our ego and especially the ego of the King (I realize that we, unlike Israel, are a republic, but since Trump said he wanted to be remembered as a king I felt we could give a nod to his ego). But God understands that pride goes before a fall. So He wants our census to be a number of sinners who need to provide a ransom for their souls. Also, you need to pay a price. If it is too easy and too cheap to count people, tax people, bring people under the yoke then the temptation to do this will be greater. If the king has to pay a heavy price to do this he will only do this in the event of a great need, like a war for survival.

When David numbered the people he ignored this requirement. He wanted to reap the rewards for being king without paying the price. This is typical of the flesh.

Jerusalem is a major city that is a land bridge between three continents. It would have been cosmopolitan before the word was invented. It is a completely different world from the rest of Israel which is an agricultural society. When Jerusalem wants to suck the blood of the rest of Israel it would be a plague to them in more ways than one. We have this argument today about “big government” and it dates all the way back to the beginning of human civilization.

If each person must bring a “ransom” to whom would they give it? Certainly they would give it to the local priests, particularly the Levites who lived in each tribe. They in turn would tabulate and send the data to Jerusalem. In this way Jerusalem is insulated from the rest of Israel. But when David did his numbering he ignored this provision, he sent out his agents from Jerusalem to the entire country, bringing with them diseases they had been exposed to that those in the rural parts had not. The Lord’s commandment would have protected the people from this contact. Like He said, His provision was so that there would be no plague among them. Anyone familiar with American history knows that the Europeans brought many diseases that the native people had not been exposed to and this is what wiped them out.

The people of Israel did not understand how "childhood diseases" like measles and mumps works, but God did. Raising domestic animals causes a society to have childhood diseases, which if you get them as a child will make you immune to them later in life. However, if you get them as an adult they can be deadly. In this way the sheep and cattle we shepherd protect us. We are not just caring for the animals we are also caring for the diseases they carry, which if done correctly are more effective than any standing army at protecting us. So, as a result God gave some commandments that people may not have understood. He essentially killed two birds with one stone. You cannot take a census without paying a heavy price, so heavy that you would not do it unless it was a matter of national survival. Second, you cannot send people from Jerusalem to the country, you need to use the local Levitical priesthood to do this census and have them send the numbers to Jerusalem. It is a brilliant solution to the problem of communicable diseases. If I go into your house your children may be contagious. But since the parents are most likely immune to any diseases their cattle are carrying they can come into the synagogue and give the offering to the priest without spreading the disease.

So then, how do they work? When the animals are in close proximity to one another (in the barn which is often the basement of the house) they are more likely to pass on the disease to humans. When the animals are in the field they are less likely. So then, if an agent travelled from house to house in the winter, a very good time to count people, they would be most likely to pick up various diseases from one house to the next and take these all over the country. If you tried to do a census when the animals were in the field then the shepherds and other laborers would be too. So you send the agents out when they are going to be able to find the people, they go from house to house and pick up every disease that the children have contracted. It is a recipe for disaster and specifically forbidden by the Bible.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 08:59 AM   #30
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I thought the word of God meant that God was the author.
So that's why you go thru all your silly antics ; your premise that the Bible is the word of God requires such extreme acrobatics that you have to resort to irrational pretzel twists to support it.

Thanks. I got it. I know where you're coming from now.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 09:40 AM   #31
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I also agree that the Lord incited Judas to betray him. The word incite does not mean to command. Rather it means what is recorded in the gospels when Jesus said "What you do, do quickly".
That's your interpretation. I didn't agree with you about that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
You are the one jumping to assumptions. You assume that the writer of Chronicles "apparently thought it was a textual error". I don't make this assumption. You make the assumption that the Bible's reference to the Lord inciting David is equivalent to the Bible's reference to Satan inciting David. I don't make this leap.
My hypotheses are based on the identical placement of the words Lord and Satan in the stories. You deny the obvious because of your dogmatic adherence to Biblical inerrantism.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I take the much more logical and reasonable assumption that when it says the Lord and Satan it means the Lord and Satan. Just as the gospels show that Judas was moved by both the Lord and Satan it is perfectly reasonable to understand that both the Lord and Satan could have incited David.
If either of the authors had thought that both the Lord and Satan had incited David, they could have said so. They didn't, but you're compelled to believe it because of your commitment to the presupposition, despite abundant evidence to the contrary, that no two statements in the Bible can conflict.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
So then, how do they work? When the animals are in close proximity to one another (in the barn which is often the basement of the house) they are more likely to pass on the disease to humans. When the animals are in the field they are less likely. So then, if an agent travelled from house to house in the winter, a very good time to count people, they would be most likely to pick up various diseases from one house to the next and take these all over the country. If you tried to do a census when the animals were in the field then the shepherds and other laborers would be too. So you send the agents out when they are going to be able to find the people, they go from house to house and pick up every disease that the children have contracted. It is a recipe for disaster and specifically forbidden by the Bible.
If the authors of II Samuel and I Chronicles had known that the disease was viral, they could have dismissed with the notion that it was an angel of the Lord that was killing people.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 02:19 PM   #32
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

This Lord/Satan/David incongruence is only one example in the Bible that incites cognitive dissonance. The Bible is full of cognitive dissonance, if taken the wrong way. All dissonance can be dispelled "in the wink of a young girls eye," to quote Bruce Springsteen, if we realize that the Bible is written by men just like us, with similar limitations as us, that are just as prone to making mistakes as us, and just as influenced by the times of their day like us.

To take the Bible as inspired, inerrant, and literal, is a childish way of taking it.

1Co_13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 05:13 PM   #33
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
My hypotheses are based on the identical placement of the words Lord and Satan in the stories. You deny the obvious because of your dogmatic adherence to Biblical inerrantism.
I do adhere to "Biblical inerrantism" but that is not the reason I deny that Satan and the Lord are referring to two different persons acting in this account.

James says that God does not tempt us to sin. We are enticed by our lusts, not God. So, if this case is truly a situation where David was enticed to sin by the Lord it would greatly undermine the Bible as the word of God.

Therefore I consider that you have to prove your point beyond a reasonable doubt since James has said very clearly that you are wrong.

The entire basis of your case, according to you, is that two different accounts refer to both the Lord and Satan as inciting David.

So then, the word incite does not mean entice. The word means that both the Lord and Satan provoked David to act and based on the account we know that David's action was judged a sin.

Is it hard to believe that two different persons could incite David to act? Of course not. For example, suppose Tom Brady throws a pick six. When you question what happened it may turn out that the play was sent in to him from the Offensive coordinator. Tom Brady is not commanded on what play to use, he can audible, so it might be better to say that he was incited by the Offensive coordinator to throw this ball. Likewise the safety may have predicted the play and acted in a way that incited Brady to throw the ball on a particular route that led to the interception. This happens all the time.

Now, if you don't like that example then the example of Judas which I have given you is ample proof that Judas was incited by both Jesus and Satan, and that Jesus word to him incited him to act, his action was a sin, but that does not mean Jesus incited him to sin.

You can characterize my attitude as "dogmatic" but your attitude is slanderous. Either you are right or James is right. If you are going to bring an accusation against an elder, or apostle, or the Lord Jesus, or the Lord God, then you need to come with two or three witnesses that can be proven without a doubt and you have not come with one.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 05:17 PM   #34
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
To take the Bible as inspired, inerrant, and literal, is a childish way of taking it.
Yes, you have made your position very clear.

My position is that:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

and

the word of [the] Lord abides for eternity

and

the Lord's word is truth
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 05:46 PM   #35
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Yes, you have made your position very clear.

My position is that:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

and

the word of [the] Lord abides for eternity

and

the Lord's word is truth
Then why don't you accept Samuel and Chronicles as they are?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 06:42 PM   #36
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Then why don't you accept Samuel and Chronicles as they are?
I do. Samuel says that the Lord incited David, I accept that. Chronicles says Satan incited David. I accept that as well. Just like myself, David is influenced by both the Lord and Satan. The lusts of the flesh are warring with the Spirit.

What I don't accept is this simplistic view of the world that has to be black or white. David sinned, he was incited by the Lord, hence the Lord incited him to sin. There were multiple forces at play and that is how life works, and that is an accurate historical account of what happened to David.

How many different voices did Truman hear before deciding to nuke Japan?

How many different voices did JFK hear before deciding not to nuke Cuba?
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2017, 08:59 PM   #37
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I do. Samuel says that the Lord incited David, I accept that. Chronicles says Satan incited David. I accept that as well. Just like myself, David is influenced by both the Lord and Satan. The lusts of the flesh are warring with the Spirit.

What I don't accept is this simplistic view of the world that has to be black or white. David sinned, he was incited by the Lord, hence the Lord incited him to sin.
So no big deal. The Lord made David sin, and Satan made David sin. No big deal.

But how many innocent people died?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 05:53 AM   #38
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
So no big deal. The Lord made David sin, and Satan made David sin. No big deal.

But how many innocent people died?
When I listen to you and Zeek I don't think, based on my reading of your posts, that you are familiar with the false positive paradox.

Let's assume you have a test to determine if someone is a liar. In this particular case has the writer of Chronicles switched Satan for the Lord in the account. Now let's assume that the writers of the Bible have been found to be generally very trustworthy. Their work has been vetted for thousands of years. This is not a dime store novel we are looking at, or worse, a US presidential candidate. No, these are generally trustworthy witnesses.

Now suppose we have a test that catches 99% of liars. It is virtually perfect in detecting a liar. On the other hand it rarely gets a false positive, perhaps only 2% of the time.

We begin by testing people who over a long time and a very detailed vetting process have been found to be trustworthy. Perhaps there is a 1 in a thousand chance that they are a liar. But the reality is that 1 in a thousand are.

So, if you get a result back on your test saying "liar" as in the case with Samuel and Chronicles, what are the odds that this actually has confirmed that they are a liar?

The way you and Zeek act you seem to think this has all but proven it and anyone, like myself, who says differently is blinded by dogmatism. But, do the math. Your "confirmation" indicates that there is less than a 5% chance that you actually have found a liar. That is known as the "false positive paradox". This is why you don't listen to an accusation of an elder except from two or three trustworthy witnesses.

So, going back to your question. God gave the children of Israel a very powerful "staff" to "defend them from their enemies". We call this childhood diseases. They take place in large populations, far larger than were present back in Abraham's day, but they also take place in domesticated animals. So to be a shepherd of sheep means you will be exposed to these diseases, and having an immunity to them protects you and your family from any who are not immune. This is why so many native Americans died when the Europeans came to the Americas. I doubt that the Europeans initially understood this, though it is clear that later they did. So initially I would not hold them guilty for the death of the native Americans. Later, giving an infected blanket with the goal of people getting sick would be a different case.

But this works both ways, and you see that what David did in taking the census violated the law set up in doing this. He might not have understood why there was this law, but once the pestilence spread and people died he was fully aware that he had sinned, he repented, and he made a peace offering.

Think about automobiles. When we first invented them the mortality rate was very high, since then it has come down incredibly as we learn how to make them safer. With autonomous cars we could decrease the mortality rate by another 90% in the foreseeable future. The deaths have motivated us to make improvements. If it is a sin, it is a sin of ignorance.

But how do you blame God, He told David beforehand how to take a census and David disobeyed that command, resulting in the deaths.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 07:17 AM   #39
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
James says that God does not tempt us to sin.
If God does not tempt us, why did Jesus teach us to pray “Lead us not into temptation.” [Matt. 6.13]?

Quote:
We are enticed by our lusts, not God. So, if this case is truly a situation where David was enticed to sin by the Lord it would greatly undermine the Bible as the word of God.
Let's stick to the text. None of the translations listed on Bible Gateway say that God enticed David. I never said that. Why are you saying it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
You can characterize my attitude as "dogmatic" but your attitude is slanderous. Either you are right or James is right. If you are going to bring an accusation against an elder, or apostle, or the Lord Jesus, or the Lord God, then you need to come with two or three witnesses that can be proven without a doubt and you have not come with one.
That's an absurd. I didn't mention James, you did. I didn't slander an apostle or an elder. At most, we have an ancient text written by a guy named James. We don't even know who this James was. Are you aware of how irrational it is to claim that I slandered a guy who lived 2000 years ago that I didn't even mention?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 07:57 AM   #40
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
When I listen to you and Zeek I don't think, based on my reading of your posts, that you are familiar with the false positive paradox.

Let's assume you have a test to determine if someone is a liar. In this particular case has the writer of Chronicles switched Satan for the Lord in the account. Now let's assume that the writers of the Bible have been found to be generally very trustworthy. Their work has been vetted for thousands of years. This is not a dime store novel we are looking at, or worse, a US presidential candidate. No, these are generally trustworthy witnesses.

Now suppose we have a test that catches 99% of liars. It is virtually perfect in detecting a liar. On the other hand it rarely gets a false positive, perhaps only 2% of the time.

We begin by testing people who over a long time and a very detailed vetting process have been found to be trustworthy. Perhaps there is a 1 in a thousand chance that they are a liar. But the reality is that 1 in a thousand are.

So, if you get a result back on your test saying "liar" as in the case with Samuel and Chronicles, what are the odds that this actually has confirmed that they are a liar?

The way you and Zeek act you seem to think this has all but proven it and anyone, like myself, who says differently is blinded by dogmatism. But, do the math. Your "confirmation" indicates that there is less than a 5% chance that you actually have found a liar. That is known as the "false positive paradox". This is why you don't listen to an accusation of an elder except from two or three trustworthy witnesses.
This is just you going off on another wild tangent. The false positive paradox is a statistical phenomenon. It's totally irrelevant here.

Quote:
So, going back to your question. God gave the children of Israel a very powerful "staff" to "defend them from their enemies". We call this childhood diseases. They take place in large populations, far larger than were present back in Abraham's day, but they also take place in domesticated animals. So to be a shepherd of sheep means you will be exposed to these diseases, and having an immunity to them protects you and your family from any who are not immune. This is why so many native Americans died when the Europeans came to the Americas. I doubt that the Europeans initially understood this, though it is clear that later they did. So initially I would not hold them guilty for the death of the native Americans. Later, giving an infected blanket with the goal of people getting sick would be a different case.

But this works both ways, and you see that what David did in taking the census violated the law set up in doing this. He might not have understood why there was this law, but once the pestilence spread and people died he was fully aware that he had sinned, he repented, and he made a peace offering.

Think about automobiles. When we first invented them the mortality rate was very high, since then it has come down incredibly as we learn how to make them safer. With autonomous cars we could decrease the mortality rate by another 90% in the foreseeable future. The deaths have motivated us to make improvements. If it is a sin, it is a sin of ignorance.

But how do you blame God, He told David beforehand how to take a census and David disobeyed that command, resulting in the deaths.
You're mistaken. According to both II Samuel and I Chronicles, it wasn't a childhood disease that killed 70,000 people, it was an angel of God. No need for your disease hypothesis if an angel of God killed them. And no need for an angel of God if an infectious disease killed them. But then, the authors got it wrong. Is that what you're saying?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 08:26 AM   #41
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
If God does not tempt us, why did Jesus teach us to pray “Lead us not into temptation.” [Matt. 6.13]?
There is no doubt that if you are led by the Lord there is the possibility of temptation. Think about Hannah's husband, his wife doesn't conceive, he is tempted to marry again. Had he prayed "lead us not into temptation" perhaps the Lord would have heard him and he would have realized the proper response to the Lord's leading would have been to pray for the Lord to open his wife's womb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
That's an absurd. I didn't mention James, you did. I didn't slander an apostle or an elder. At most, we have an ancient text written by a guy named James. We don't even know who this James was. Are you aware of how irrational it is to claim that I slandered a guy who lived 2000 years ago that I didn't even mention?
It is only absurd if I am the only one who understands your posts this way. Let's hear from Ohio on whether or not my understanding is "absurd". If it turns out that others are also reading your posts this way and that is not what you mean maybe you should spell out clearer what exactly you do mean.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 08:28 AM   #42
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
This is just you going off on another wild tangent. The false positive paradox is a statistical phenomenon. It's totally irrelevant here.



You're mistaken. According to both II Samuel and I Chronicles, it wasn't a childhood disease that killed 70,000 people, it was an angel of God. No need for your disease hypothesis if an angel of God killed them. And no need for an angel of God if an infectious disease killed them. But then, the authors got it wrong. Is that what you're saying?
An "angel of God" is a "messenger" of God. Why is it that a communicable disease cannot be a "messenger of God". It conveyed God's message to "repent" which David heard loud and clear and then repented.

So if an angel cannot be a microscopic organism or even a virus just show me that verse that says so.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 08:32 AM   #43
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
This is just you going off on another wild tangent. The false positive paradox is a statistical phenomenon. It's totally irrelevant here.
Again, it is hard for me to understand why you think taking the Bible at face value is "childish" (yes Awareness posted that comment but I didn't see you disavow it).

You seem to think your understanding of Samuel is the only one that is reasonable, yet my point is that if the Bible is considered a trustworthy and credible source your interpretation probably has less than 5% chance of being true.

On the other hand if you do not think the Bible is a credible and trustworthy source then say so.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 08:53 AM   #44
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Here is how I understand the argument that is being made:

In 2Samuel 24 it says that the Lord incited David to number the people.

David numbered the people, it was a sin, and as a result of this sin 70,000 people died from a pestilence that swept through the land.

David then repented, made a peace offering and this was the land on which the temple was built.

This same story is recounted in Chronicles where it says that Satan incited David.

So, very reasonably, Zeek and Awareness are arguing that "Satan" in Chronicles is "the Lord" in 2 Samuel. I think Awareness equates the two, whereas Zeek is arguing that the writer of Chronicles couldn't reconcile God being responsible for inciting David to sin and then punishing him for it, so he changed the record to read Satan.

Either way, this is contrary to what the Apostles have written. James writes that the Lord does not tempt us to sin and that when we are tempted it is due to our lusts. It other places the Bible is said to be "true" and "eternal" and "trustworthy". This would contradict the writer of Chronicles changing the account to fit his view.

I have pointed out that the word "incite" does not mean "entice". It doesn't say that the Lord enticed David to sin, only incited him to act. I then compare this to the Lord telling Judas "what you do, do quickly". The Lord did not entice Judas to betray Him, only incited him to act quickly.

I have also given numerous examples how in a big decision there will be a multitude of voices, each with an agenda, influencing you. This has been recorded numerous times in history (Truman's use of the Bomb, and JFK's dealing with the Cuban missile crisis are two examples).

I also point out that the word incite does not mean command. The Lord had previously given Moses a commandment on how to perform a census. David violated this command. In the Lord's command He states plainly that this command is so that there is not a pestilence. I explain this using our current understanding of communicable diseases, particularly childhood diseases which are transferred to humans from domesticated animals like sheep, goats, horses, cows and chickens.

Awareness then argued, so what, how do you justify killing 70,000 people. Zeek pointed out that they were killed by "an angel of the Lord". I argued that the communicable disease can be viewed as an angel of the Lord. It was a messenger, David got the message, and he repented. In addition these diseases protect us, if we treat them properly. Childhood vaccines and medical records are our modern way of treating them properly, but prior to this the Lord's command not to send out census agents from house to house all over the country would have also worked. The Angel was sent to protect us, but you have to follow the rules because like an automobile, if used improperly it is dangerous. David didn't follow the rules.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 10:07 AM   #45
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
An "angel of God" is a "messenger" of God. Why is it that a communicable disease cannot be a "messenger of God". It conveyed God's message to "repent" which David heard loud and clear and then repented.

So if an angel cannot be a microscopic organism or even a virus just show me that verse that says so.
Sure "angel of God' can be a metaphor for a virus. But then, it wouldn't be a matter of the Lord sending the disease, rather the disease would be a natural consequence of the way viruses spread. How then would you make sense of the prophet Gad giving David a choice between three different punishments after the census was taken and the disease already spread? And why does the text say that the Lord sent the disease when the disease would have spread naturally as a consequence of how viruses spread?

If an "angel of God" can be a virus, then the "Lord" could be the biological mechanism that leads to the diseased state. Is that what you're claiming?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 11:24 AM   #46
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
You can characterize my attitude as "dogmatic" but your attitude is slanderous.
We don't need bro zeek to slander God. The Bible does an outstanding job of doing that on its own.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 11:56 AM   #47
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Again, it is hard for me to understand why you think taking the Bible at face value is "childish" (yes Awareness posted that comment but I didn't see you disavow it).
You don't take the Bible at face value. You see gaps in the narrative and you read into it a bunch of scientific and speculative theories that are incongruous with the text.

Quote:
You seem to think your understanding of Samuel is the only one that is reasonable, yet my point is that if the Bible is considered a trustworthy and credible source your interpretation probably has less than 5% chance of being true. On the other hand if you do not think the Bible is a credible and trustworthy source then say so.
There are plenty of reasonable ways to read the Bible. Yours just isn't one of them.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 12:07 PM   #48
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
So if an angel cannot be a microscopic organism or even a virus just show me that verse that says so.
They must be eusocial. But how many angel viruses can dance on the head of a pin?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 12:35 PM   #49
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
They must be eusocial. But how many angel viruses can dance on the head of a pin?
You're not helping.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 12:37 PM   #50
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
You're not helping.
Oh c'mon, those angel viruses could be having a party on the heads of pins.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 12:47 PM   #51
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Sure "angel of God' can be a metaphor for a virus. But then, it wouldn't be a matter of the Lord sending the disease, rather the disease would be a natural consequence of the way viruses spread. How then would you make sense of the prophet Gad giving David a choice between three different punishments after the census was taken and the disease already spread? And why does the text say that the Lord sent the disease when the disease would have spread naturally as a consequence of how viruses spread?

If an "angel of God" can be a virus, then the "Lord" could be the biological mechanism that leads to the diseased state. Is that what you're claiming?
David "sent" the census takers. As they entered each house the "avenging angel" hitched a ride to the next house. In that way the "Angel" was "sent forth".
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 12:58 PM   #52
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
You don't take the Bible at face value. You see gaps in the narrative and you read into it a bunch of scientific and speculative theories that are incongruous with the text.

There are plenty of reasonable ways to read the Bible. Yours just isn't one of them.
1. God commanded Moses that when they take a census they had to do it a specific way, by taking an offering as a ransom for each person.

There is no way that a census taker sent from Jerusalem would collect all these offerings, it would be completely unworkable. Logically, practically, realistically the only way to read that based on the OT is that these offerings were brought to the local levitical priesthood. They were located in every tribe.

I didn't add anything.

2. God commanded Moses saying that if you don't follow this way there will be a pestilence that strikes the land. This is what we see happen at the time of David. It is a great reminder when building the temple to keep the law of God, regardless of whether or not you understand it.

I didn't add anything. This is the black and white word.

However, based on my background in both science and history it does make sense today, whereas it might not have made sense to David. We know that everyone in Israel was involved in agriculture, this predated the industrial revolution. We know that they were known for being shepherds and keeping domestic animals. We know that these large herds are the perfect incubation chamber for diseases that can spread to humans. We also know that this was a time when there was not a lot of world travel or international commerce. The only exception to that would be Jerusalem which was at the center of three continents. People coming from Africa, Europe or Asia would pass through Jerusalem.

3. They say that a pestilence (I understand that to mean a communicable disease) spread through the Land from Dan all the way to Jerusalem. Whenever you have a disease spread like that there must be a vector. In this case it could not have been water since they didn't have one water supply. It also would not have been food borne since they didn't have that kind of supply network. Insects and animals would not pass through the land that quickly. The only vector mentioned that we know passed through the whole land were the census takers.

The census takers were the messengers of king David, i.e. his angels.

I find it ironic that the avenging angels of God hitched a ride on David's angels.

I think the record is sufficiently detailed for us to draw this conclusion without a concern that we are adding stuff that isn't there.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 01:50 PM   #53
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
David "sent" the census takers. As they entered each house the "avenging angel" hitched a ride to the next house. In that way the "Angel" was "sent forth".
Wrong. II Samuel 24: 15 states that the Lord sent the angel not David.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 03:00 PM   #54
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
David "sent" the census takers. As they entered each house the "avenging angel" hitched a ride to the next house. In that way the "Angel" was "sent forth".
Where does the Bible say this?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 03:40 PM   #55
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Wrong. II Samuel 24: 15 states that the Lord sent the angel not David.
David sent out messengers to gather the census data. If the word angel is equivalent to messenger, those census agents were "David's angels".
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 03:42 PM   #56
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Where does the Bible say this?
2Samuel 24:2
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 04:02 PM   #57
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 3,953
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
David sent out messengers to gather the census data. If the word angel is equivalent to messenger, those census agents were "David's angels".
For someone so smart, you can sure be dumb sometimes.

An angel can be a messenger. But every messenger is not an angel. And an angel is not simply a messenger.

David sent out messengers, not angels.

To continue to insist otherwise is to prove my opening above.
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 04:48 PM   #58
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
2Samuel 24:2
Where's the hitchhiking "avenging angel" in that verse?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 05:52 PM   #59
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Where's the hitchhiking "avenging angel" in that verse?
8 And they went through all the land, and came to Jerusalem at the end of nine months and twenty days...

15 And Jehovah sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the set time; and there died of the people from Dan even to Beer-sheba seventy thousand men.

There is no mention that God sent an avenging angel, rather it says he sent a pestilence.

If you send people in and out of every house in Israel it would be very easy to use those people to "send your pestilence".

Then in verse 16 it says:

16 And the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it; but Jehovah repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed among the people, It is enough: withdraw now thine hand. And the angel of Jehovah was by the threshing-floor of Araunah the Jebusite.

This angel was for the benefit of David, it helped him visualize what was happening.

17 And David spoke to Jehovah when he saw the angel that smote among the people, and said, Behold, it is I that have sinned, and it is I that have committed iniquity; but these sheep, what have they done?

Let's be precise here, the account says that God "sent a pestilence", but in Jerusalem David saw an Angel stretch out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, but the Lord stopped the Angel. This angel "destroyed among the people" so it is equivalent to the pestilence that was sent.

You can understand this any way you wish -- it was miraculous, it was spiritual, or it was a communicable disease that came from sending these census agents in and out of every house. But regardless, the interpretation that God incited David to sin is not supported.

The most compelling evidence is David who says "it is I who have sinned". The second very persuasive piece of evidence is the commandment to Moses not to do what David did. To disobey that commandment would be a sin.

My point is that if a person from the CDC went back in time to the reign of King David he would advise, even command that they not take a census by sending people in and out of every house. We can easily foresee that in that day it would raise the probability of a pestilence greatly. In the even that it was really necessary we could have each family counted by the local priests in that area and have them send the count for their region to Jerusalem. In other words, we would agree with God's command to Moses and we would agree that David's actions were dangerous and could be the cause for the pestilence.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 06:04 PM   #60
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Wrong. II Samuel 24: 15 states that the Lord sent the angel not David.
What version is that? The translations I am looking at says that God sent a pestilence.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 06:07 PM   #61
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
For someone so smart, you can sure be dumb sometimes.

An angel can be a messenger. But every messenger is not an angel. And an angel is not simply a messenger.

David sent out messengers, not angels.

To continue to insist otherwise is to prove my opening above.
Sometimes the best option is to use the jawbone of an ass.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 07:45 PM   #62
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Sometimes the best option is to use the jawbone of an ass.
And fairy dust actually works.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2017, 09:25 PM   #63
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
What version is that? The translations I am looking at says that God sent a pestilence.
Quote:
CEV
So that morning, the Lord sent an angel to spread a horrible disease everywhere in Israel, from Dan to Beersheba.
However, Strong's doesn't support that translation. http://biblehub.com/text/2_samuel/24-15.htm

The NKJV puts it this way:
Quote:
2 Samuel 24:15-18New King James Version (NKJV)

15 So the Lord sent a plague upon Israel from the morning till the appointed time. From Dan to Beersheba seventy thousand men of the people died. 16 And when the angel[a] stretched out His hand over Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the destruction, and said to the angel who was destroying the people, “It is enough; now restrain your hand.” And the angel of the Lord was by the threshing floor of Araunah[b] the Jebusite.
That could be read to support the notion that the plague was considered synonymous with the destroying angel. Interpreting an angel of God as a virus is a swerve from Biblical literalism. If a destroying angel is a virus here, maybe that angel who announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son, was generated by a spike in serotonin due to becoming pregnant. Far from your claim that you are a fundamentalist, here is evidence that you are on a slippery slope of non-literal interpretation.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 05:11 AM   #64
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
However, Strong's doesn't support that translation. http://biblehub.com/text/2_samuel/24-15.htm

The NKJV puts it this way:

That could be read to support the notion that the plague was considered synonymous with the destroying angel. Interpreting an angel of God as a virus is a swerve from Biblical literalism. If a destroying angel is a virus here, maybe that angel who announced to Mary that she would conceive and give birth to a son, was generated by a spike in serotonin due to becoming pregnant. Far from your claim that you are a fundamentalist, here is evidence that you are on a slippery slope of non-literal interpretation.
Biblical literalism is the theological view that the contents of the Bible should be seen as literally true and "innerrant." The text is not to be interpreted as allegory, literature, or mythology, and is without fault in its claims; unimpeachably true in all matters. Literalism is the basis of several different pseudoscientific positions, such as young Earth creationism, deluge theory and geocentrism.

I reject young Earth creationism, and geocentrism as Biblical positions.

And I reject the "Deluge theory" as it is defined here: Thomas Burnet's Theory of the Deluge said that before the great flood, the earth was smooth and fruitful, with "not a Wrinkle, Scar or Fracture in all its body, no Rocks nor Mountains, no hollow Caves, nor gaping Channels, but even and uniform all over" (Burnet, from Nicolson, 188).

I have also demonstrated very clearly that I see the Bible as allegorical and as literature. Ask OBW who often complains of my use of typology.

So if you have equated my view that the Bible is inerrant with their views I find that very confusing since i have made my view on all of these topics quite plain on this forum prior to your post.

In my view the Bible is inerrant, not Bible expositors. Therefore I am not required to blindly bow to any prior interpretations. This is the same rules that scientists play by.


sent a pestilence — Darby

sent a pestilence — ASV

sent a pestilence (plague) — Amplified version

sent a plague — complete Jewish Bible

sent a pestilence — Douay-Rehims

sent a pestilence — KJV

sent a dever (pestilence) — Orthodox Jewish Bible

giveth a pestilence — Young’s literal translation

sent (a) pestilence — Wycliffe Bible


According to the record when David sent men to take a census God sent a pestilence (plague).

A pestilence refers to a fatal epidemic disease.

Epidemics occur when an agent and susceptible hosts are present in adequate numbers, and the agent can be effectively conveyed from a source to the susceptible hosts. More specifically, an epidemic may result from:
• A recent increase in amount or virulence of the agent,
• The recent introduction of the agent into a setting where it has not been before,
• An enhanced mode of transmission so that more susceptible persons are exposed,
• A change in the susceptibility of the host response to the agent, and/or
• Factors that increase host exposure or involve introduction through new portals of entry

When David sent out agents to gather census data, going house to house from one end of Israel to the other it resulted in "the recent introduction of the agent into a setting where it had not been before", the agents were "an enhanced mode of transmission so that more susceptible persons were exposed" -- in the house you would have those who were sick as well as weak. Young children, old people, etc. Taking the census was "a factor that increased host exposure and involved introduction through a new portal of entry."

Therefore God commanded Moses not to do what David did or else there would be a pestilence. David ignored God's command. It was a sin and there was a pestilence, just as God said there would be.

That is the bottom line from any literal reading of this passage.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 06:11 AM   #65
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
According to the record when David sent men to take a census God sent a pestilence (plague).
What record are you reading anyway? I must not be reading the same record. Samuel says God sent the plague (or whatever) after David did the census. In fact God gave 3 choices. Does your record say that?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 06:28 AM   #66
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
What record are you reading anyway? I must not be reading the same record. Samuel says God sent the plague (or whatever) after David did the census. In fact God gave 3 choices. Does your record say that?
Yes, the record I'm reading says that it took them about 9 months to gather the census. This is not at all unusual in epidemiology. That would qualify as a "recent introduction of an agent into a setting where it had not been previously". The word epidemic is in contrast to endemic. We understand that there is an endemic level of sickness, a background level. The plague hit when people were threshing wheat, so it might have been related to mice.

God gave him 3 choices: hunger for 7 years, defeat in battle for 3 months or pestilence for 3 days. Any one of those could easily be tied scientifically to the census takers spreading disease throughout the land.

If you look at the command to Moses there is one result of this type of census -- pestilence. A pestilence can easily be tied to hunger and or defeat in battle. But realistically speaking who is going to choose to have famine for 7 years versus pestilence for 3 days. Yes He gave David 3 choices but I cannot imagine any king choosing the other two choices.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 07:32 AM   #67
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Yes, the record I'm reading says that it took them about 9 months to gather the census. This is not at all unusual in epidemiology. That would qualify as a "recent introduction of an agent into a setting where it had not been previously". The word epidemic is in contrast to endemic. We understand that there is an endemic level of sickness, a background level. The plague hit when people were threshing wheat, so it might have been related to mice.

God gave him 3 choices: hunger for 7 years, defeat in battle for 3 months or pestilence for 3 days. Any one of those could easily be tied scientifically to the census takers spreading disease throughout the land.

If you look at the command to Moses there is one result of this type of census -- pestilence. A pestilence can easily be tied to hunger and or defeat in battle. But realistically speaking who is going to choose to have famine for 7 years versus pestilence for 3 days. Yes He gave David 3 choices but I cannot imagine any king choosing the other two choices.
Now I think I get what's going on. The reason you go thru all these convoluted contrivances with the Bible is that you are trying to prove that the ancient writers of the Bible align with modern science. And that's why you buy into that silly gap theory.

But I hope you realize that your balls-to-the-walls efforts only make you look crazy.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 10:01 AM   #68
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Biblical literalism is the theological view that the contents of the Bible should be seen as literally true and "innerrant." The text is not to be interpreted as allegory, literature, or mythology, and is without fault in its claims; unimpeachably true in all matters. Literalism is the basis of several different pseudoscientific positions, such as young Earth creationism, deluge theory and geocentrism.

I reject young Earth creationism, and geocentrism as Biblical positions.

And I reject the "Deluge theory" as it is defined here: Thomas Burnet's Theory of the Deluge said that before the great flood, the earth was smooth and fruitful, with "not a Wrinkle, Scar or Fracture in all its body, no Rocks nor Mountains, no hollow Caves, nor gaping Channels, but even and uniform all over" (Burnet, from Nicolson, 188).

I have also demonstrated very clearly that I see the Bible as allegorical and as literature. Ask OBW who often complains of my use of typology.

So if you have equated my view that the Bible is inerrant with their views I find that very confusing since i have made my view on all of these topics quite plain on this forum prior to your post.

In my view the Bible is inerrant, not Bible expositors. Therefore I am not required to blindly bow to any prior interpretations. This is the same rules that scientists play by.


sent a pestilence — Darby

sent a pestilence — ASV

sent a pestilence (plague) — Amplified version

sent a plague — complete Jewish Bible

sent a pestilence — Douay-Rehims

sent a pestilence — KJV

sent a dever (pestilence) — Orthodox Jewish Bible

giveth a pestilence — Young’s literal translation

sent (a) pestilence — Wycliffe Bible


According to the record when David sent men to take a census God sent a pestilence (plague).

A pestilence refers to a fatal epidemic disease.

Epidemics occur when an agent and susceptible hosts are present in adequate numbers, and the agent can be effectively conveyed from a source to the susceptible hosts. More specifically, an epidemic may result from:
• A recent increase in amount or virulence of the agent,
• The recent introduction of the agent into a setting where it has not been before,
• An enhanced mode of transmission so that more susceptible persons are exposed,
• A change in the susceptibility of the host response to the agent, and/or
• Factors that increase host exposure or involve introduction through new portals of entry

When David sent out agents to gather census data, going house to house from one end of Israel to the other it resulted in "the recent introduction of the agent into a setting where it had not been before", the agents were "an enhanced mode of transmission so that more susceptible persons were exposed" -- in the house you would have those who were sick as well as weak. Young children, old people, etc. Taking the census was "a factor that increased host exposure and involved introduction through a new portal of entry."

Therefore God commanded Moses not to do what David did or else there would be a pestilence. David ignored God's command. It was a sin and there was a pestilence, just as God said there would be.

That is the bottom line from any literal reading of this passage.
That clarifies your position for me somewhat. You had called yourself a fundamentalist. But, that was misleading. Whereas fundamentalism is usually characterized by literalism, that isn't the way you roll. And it is true, that you have demonstrated that on this forum over and over.

So, while you do hold to Biblical inerrancy, to preserve it, you often espouse fabulous sounding theories which, by the way, are probably false positives according to your own theory as to how that statistical paradox works.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 12:59 PM   #69
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
That clarifies your position for me somewhat. You had called yourself a fundamentalist. But, that was misleading. Whereas fundamentalism is usually characterized by literalism, that isn't the way you roll. And it is true, that you have demonstrated that on this forum over and over.

So, while you do hold to Biblical inerrancy, to preserve it, you often espouse fabulous sounding theories which, by the way, are probably false positives according to your own theory as to how that statistical paradox works.
The way the "false positive" would work in relation to this thread:

Did God incite David to Sin.

1. The apostle James tells us that God never incites someone to sin.

2. 2 Samuel says that the Lord incited David to number the people, and that this act was a sin.

3. Chronicles says that Satan incited David to sin.

Put these two together and I think I have a clear witness that the Lord incited David to sin. If you were dealing with a known liar the odds of this being true would be 99% certain. If you are dealing with someone who Paul said was "impossible to lie" then the odds of this being an example of a lie are less than 5%.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't examine the claim. What it means is that like Paul said, you need at least 2-3 credible witnesses before you have a "hearing".
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 01:08 PM   #70
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
That clarifies your position for me somewhat. You had called yourself a fundamentalist. But, that was misleading. Whereas fundamentalism is usually characterized by literalism, that isn't the way you roll. And it is true, that you have demonstrated that on this forum over and over.

So, while you do hold to Biblical inerrancy, to preserve it, you often espouse fabulous sounding theories which, by the way, are probably false positives according to your own theory as to how that statistical paradox works.
My definition of fundamentalism is:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 01:56 PM   #71
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quoting ZNP:
ZNP : 1. The apostle James tells us that God never incites someone to sin.

Whoever wrote James could be mistaken

ZNP :
2. 2 Samuel says that the Lord incited David to number the people, and that this act was a sin.

3. Chronicles says that Satan incited David to sin.


Chronicles, written a few hundred years after Samuel, was an editing of Samuel ... and can't be trusted anyway, since it was written hundreds of years from the event.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
What it means is that like Paul said, you need at least 2-3 credible witnesses before you have a "hearing".
And we have no credible witnesses.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2017, 05:34 PM   #72
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Now I think I get what's going on. The reason you go thru all these convoluted contrivances with the Bible is that you are trying to prove that the ancient writers of the Bible align with modern science. And that's why you buy into that silly gap theory.

But I hope you realize that your balls-to-the-walls efforts only make you look crazy.
I don't see myself as trying to do anything other than read the Bible. As a child the book was closed, I wanted to be able to open it up, read it and understand. It seemed to me that no one was doing that. I didn't want people to tell me what the Bible said, rather I wanted to read what it said. But when I was growing up in the Episcopal church no one was doing that.

For example, when I read that God tells Moses you can't take a census unless have have an offering for each person as a ransom so that you don't have a pestilence. That is a bizarre and strange verse that I don't understand. I would like to be able to understand it.

Now I can appreciate you succumbing to the temptation to think you are smarter and more logical than those who wrote the Bible and to just write them off for various reasons. It is an easy out. This in turn leads you to say things like "Chronicles can't be trusted" and believing the Bible is the word of God is "childish". It is a lot easier to just dismiss the stuff you don't get as "untrustworthy" and "childish". I get that you have contrived to blame God and the Bible for every evil under the sun. After all He is the creator. I get it that it seems silly to you that others aren't agreeing with you, I imagine Eli thought Samuel was pretty silly as a child.

It is hard for me to think of any act of faith that didn't appear as "silly" to those without. Gideon was surely foolish. David was foolish. Abraham was foolish. Even Paul was a fool for Christ.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 07:57 AM   #73
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Well as Max Rappaport would say, as he tried to put a stop to false spirituality, 'that's some on the floor fellowship.' (left below).

But if all you see about yourself is that you are only trying to do anything other than read the Bible you need to take a closer look. Cuz you don't just read it, you embellish the hell out of it (pun intended).

And while you grew up in the Episcopal church I grew up in the Bible thumper's thumpers' church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
For example, when I read that God tells Moses you can't take a census unless have have an offering for each person as a ransom so that you don't have a pestilence. That is a bizarre and strange verse that I don't understand. I would like to be able to understand it.
What's to understand? It's silly, and bad. God's gonna send a pestilence for counting people? What? What's wrong with God? But rather than accept the obvious, you jump to trying to contrive it into some scientific reason. Then you aren't just reading the Bible, you are adding to it, with great and embarrassing embellishment. And you make it sound authoritative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
Now I can appreciate you succumbing to the temptation to think you are smarter and more logical than those who wrote the Bible and to just write them off for various reasons.
I'm not smarter than those who wrote the Bible. More logical maybe. But that's because I live in a different time than they did. People were more superstitious back then. They couldn't help it. So they tried to explain things they couldn't understand in simple terms, and explained things we now know as natural causes by attributing spiritual causes to them. If you are just reading the Bible that's obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
This in turn leads you to say things like "Chronicles can't be trusted" and believing the Bible is the word of God is "childish".
What leads me to think Chronicles can't be trusted is the simple fact that it was written hundreds, if not thousands, of years after it all happened. How trustworthy can that be?

And I should qualify my "childish" remark. The Bible was pounded into me in utero. And I accepted it as a child would accept anything that a child is being taught. I was taught that the Bible was the inspired and inerrant word of God, and accepted it with the innocence of a child. For example, I was told that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, wrote the gospels.

Then I grew up and learned better. Now I can't prove anything about the claim that it's inspired. That can't be proven by anyone, including science. And the inerrant claim I now realize is a joke. The manuscripts prove otherwise. And I since learned that the gospels were written anonymously.

What I learned growing up was childish. That's what I meant by childish.

Is it an out? Yes. An out from being a child to an adult.

I say your "foolish" claim is an out. Because Paul said we are fools for Christ, then you can accept without question all the foolish stuff in the Bible, and make a fool of yourself with impunity. Well go with gusto bro. Look as foolish as you like. But don't be surprised, or offended, when others point it out.

------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I don't see myself as trying to do anything other than read the Bible. As a child the book was closed, I wanted to be able to open it up, read it and understand. It seemed to me that no one was doing that. I didn't want people to tell me what the Bible said, rather I wanted to read what it said. But when I was growing up in the Episcopal church no one was doing that.

For example, when I read that God tells Moses you can't take a census unless have have an offering for each person as a ransom so that you don't have a pestilence. That is a bizarre and strange verse that I don't understand. I would like to be able to understand it.

Now I can appreciate you succumbing to the temptation to think you are smarter and more logical than those who wrote the Bible and to just write them off for various reasons. It is an easy out. This in turn leads you to say things like "Chronicles can't be trusted" and believing the Bible is the word of God is "childish". It is a lot easier to just dismiss the stuff you don't get as "untrustworthy" and "childish". I get that you have contrived to blame God and the Bible for every evil under the sun. After all He is the creator. I get it that it seems silly to you that others aren't agreeing with you, I imagine Eli thought Samuel was pretty silly as a child.

It is hard for me to think of any act of faith that didn't appear as "silly" to those without. Gideon was surely foolish. David was foolish. Abraham was foolish. Even Paul was a fool for Christ.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 09:35 AM   #74
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The way the "false positive" would work in relation to this thread:

Did God incite David to Sin.

1. The apostle James tells us that God never incites someone to sin.

2. 2 Samuel says that the Lord incited David to number the people, and that this act was a sin.

3. Chronicles says that Satan incited David to sin.

Put these two together and I think I have a clear witness that the Lord incited David to sin. If you were dealing with a known liar the odds of this being true would be 99% certain. If you are dealing with someone who Paul said was "impossible to lie" then the odds of this being an example of a lie are less than 5%.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't examine the claim. What it means is that like Paul said, you need at least 2-3 credible witnesses before you have a "hearing".
This post is full of unwarranted assumptions, questionable claims, spurious logic and doubtful conclusions. I can't make sense of it.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 05:04 PM   #75
Evangelical
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,979
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

I haven't read through all the posts so am not taking sides.

But the discrepancy between the two accounts of David taking the census is well explained here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html

I think what is clear to me, and is related to what I said on the "Problem of Evil" thread - God and Satan are on the same team.

This stands at odds to what modern Christianity teaches and believes. Many would react in shock horror that Satan and God collude. But it fits in Jewish theology just fine - that Satan is an angelic servant of God that does God's "dirty work". Whether it was tempting Adam and Eve, leading His Son to the desert to be tempted, sending His Son to the cross, or whether it was testing Job or inciting David to take a census.

Satan probably said to God "look at David, he's so perfect, but I bet he would take a census if I tempted him to, and by the way, the people are overdue for a plague", and God said "OK, we have a deal". David failed the test. There is another aspect to this story - why did God kill 70,000 innocent people for one man's sin? It could have been to show David that his decisions as king had severe consequences for His people - life and death of the people was in David's hands more than he realized. Perhaps God wanted to show David how much a burden it is to bear responsibility for all the people. I can't help but think that this is a way to get back at the people and David in a kind of "I told you so" way, for rejecting God as their King.
Evangelical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 05:42 PM   #76
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Well as Max Rappaport would say, as he tried to put a stop to false spirituality, 'that's some on the floor fellowship.' (left below).

But if all you see about yourself is that you are only trying to do anything other than read the Bible you need to take a closer look. Cuz you don't just read it, you embellish the hell out of it (pun intended).

And while you grew up in the Episcopal church I grew up in the Bible thumper's thumpers' church.


What's to understand? It's silly, and bad. God's gonna send a pestilence for counting people? What? What's wrong with God? But rather than accept the obvious, you jump to trying to contrive it into some scientific reason. Then you aren't just reading the Bible, you are adding to it, with great and embarrassing embellishment. And you make it sound authoritative.
Once again I will point out that if the CDC somehow got transported back in time and had to advise Moses they would have given the same advice. It isn't silly and it isn't bad advice. I haven't added anything to the word, I have merely looked at it from "a different time". I have learned that many of those who teach the Bible today are "more superstitious" than those back then and as a result this colors their understanding. They can't help but "try and explain things they don't understand". If you don't agree let's get an official from the CDC to weigh in. I have some high level contacts over there and would be happy to reach out to them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I'm not smarter than those who wrote the Bible.
I knew we could find something we both agree on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
More logical maybe. But that's because I live in a different time than they did. People were more superstitious back then. They couldn't help it. So they tried to explain things they couldn't understand in simple terms, and explained things we now know as natural causes by attributing spiritual causes to them. If you are just reading the Bible that's obvious.


What leads me to think Chronicles can't be trusted is the simple fact that it was written hundreds, if not thousands, of years after it all happened. How trustworthy can that be?
OMG! You are writing about this thousands of years after it happened! How trustworthy can that be? I get it! It is like Pinnochio smelling a lie. Your nose, it is out of control!

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
And I should qualify my "childish" remark. The Bible was pounded into me in utero. And I accepted it as a child would accept anything that a child is being taught. I was taught that the Bible was the inspired and inerrant word of God, and accepted it with the innocence of a child. For example, I was told that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, wrote the gospels.

Then I grew up and learned better. Now I can't prove anything about the claim that it's inspired. That can't be proven by anyone, including science. And the inerrant claim I now realize is a joke. The manuscripts prove otherwise. And I since learned that the gospels were written anonymously.

What I learned growing up was childish. That's what I meant by childish.

Is it an out? Yes. An out from being a child to an adult.

I say your "foolish" claim is an out. Because Paul said we are fools for Christ, then you can accept without question all the foolish stuff in the Bible, and make a fool of yourself with impunity. Well go with gusto bro. Look as foolish as you like. But don't be surprised, or offended, when others point it out.

------------------------
Once again we have found and area of agreement. I grew up in NY where the established religious leaders thought it was childish. Then I grew up, went to an elite university and learned better.

What science can prove is that whoever wrote this was far more brilliant than any of our scientists.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 05:43 PM   #77
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I haven't read through all the posts so am not taking sides.

But the discrepancy between the two accounts of David taking the census is well explained here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html

I think what is clear to me, and is related to what I said on the "Problem of Evil" thread - God and Satan are on the same team.

This stands at odds to what modern Christianity teaches and believes. Many would react in shock horror that Satan and God collude. But it fits in Jewish theology just fine - that Satan is an angelic servant of God that does God's "dirty work". Whether it was tempting Adam and Eve, leading His Son to the desert to be tempted, sending His Son to the cross, or whether it was testing Job or inciting David to take a census.

Satan probably said to God "look at David, he's so perfect, but I bet he would take a census if I tempted him to, and by the way, the people are overdue for a plague", and God said "OK, we have a deal". David failed the test. There is another aspect to this story - why did God kill 70,000 innocent people for one man's sin? It could have been to show David that his decisions as king had severe consequences for His people - life and death of the people was in David's hands more than he realized. Perhaps God wanted to show David how much a burden it is to bear responsibility for all the people. I can't help but think that this is a way to get back at the people and David in a kind of "I told you so" way, for rejecting God as their King.
Sound pretty wacky to me bro Evangelical. But who am I to tell God whether He can be wacky or not?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 05:49 PM   #78
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I haven't read through all the posts so am not taking sides.

But the discrepancy between the two accounts of David taking the census is well explained here:

https://www.gotquestions.org/David-census.html

I think what is clear to me, and is related to what I said on the "Problem of Evil" thread - God and Satan are on the same team.

This stands at odds to what modern Christianity teaches and believes. Many would react in shock horror that Satan and God collude. But it fits in Jewish theology just fine - that Satan is an angelic servant of God that does God's "dirty work". Whether it was tempting Adam and Eve, leading His Son to the desert to be tempted, sending His Son to the cross, or whether it was testing Job or inciting David to take a census.

Satan probably said to God "look at David, he's so perfect, but I bet he would take a census if I tempted him to, and by the way, the people are overdue for a plague", and God said "OK, we have a deal". David failed the test. There is another aspect to this story - why did God kill 70,000 innocent people for one man's sin? It could have been to show David that his decisions as king had severe consequences for His people - life and death of the people was in David's hands more than he realized. Perhaps God wanted to show David how much a burden it is to bear responsibility for all the people. I can't help but think that this is a way to get back at the people and David in a kind of "I told you so" way, for rejecting God as their King.
I would point out that the word collude refers to something illegal and deceitful. Yes, I would have to agree with you that many would react in horror at you saying God is acting in a way that is illegal and deceitful. I would also point out that if "God and Satan are on the same team" then the term "collude" would not be appropriate.

I think Zeek's post is more appropriate here:

"This post is full of unwarranted assumptions, questionable claims, spurious logic and doubtful conclusions. I can't make sense of it."
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 06:35 PM   #79
Evangelical
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,979
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I would point out that the word collude refers to something illegal and deceitful. Yes, I would have to agree with you that many would react in horror at you saying God is acting in a way that is illegal and deceitful. I would also point out that if "God and Satan are on the same team" then the term "collude" would not be appropriate.

I think Zeek's post is more appropriate here:

"This post is full of unwarranted assumptions, questionable claims, spurious logic and doubtful conclusions. I can't make sense of it."
Look up any Jewish or Christian theological resource on this topic and you will find at least 10 different interpretations. I am merely relaying a few of them here. I used the word collude because the deaths of 70,000 people did not sound like a "collaboration" or "partnership".

Once God's lets loose the angel of Death (Satan) to kill the people, he then realized that what He is doing is wrong and says "enough" (1 Chronicles 21:15).

David asked God why he killed the people in 1 Chronicles 21:17. That question remains unanswered and we can only speculate.
Evangelical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 07:23 PM   #80
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Assuming that there was an actual event when David took a census of the people and sometime afterward there was an epidemic, a henoist without understanding of germ theory would probably attribute the epidemic to God's punishment. If, on reviewing the story in a later period when the author was living in a culture influenced by Zoroastrian dualism, attributing the epidemic to Satan would have made more sense. From the standpoint of history the difference in attribution between II Samuel 24:1 and Chronicles 21:1 is not surprising whereas from the standpoint of Biblical inerrantism it's a shock and a mystery.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2017, 07:42 PM   #81
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
David asked God why he killed the people in 1 Chronicles 21:17. That question remains unanswered and we can only speculate.
1Chron 21:17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done very wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? let thy hand, I pray thee, O Jehovah my God, be against me, and against my father’s house; but not against thy people, that they should be plagued.

It seems to me this is a rhetorical question. It is unanswered because we are told plainly that David commanded the people to be numbered.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 01:51 AM   #82
Evangelical
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,979
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
1Chron 21:17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done very wickedly; but these sheep, what have they done? let thy hand, I pray thee, O Jehovah my God, be against me, and against my father’s house; but not against thy people, that they should be plagued.

It seems to me this is a rhetorical question. It is unanswered because we are told plainly that David commanded the people to be numbered.
David is asking God why he punished the people and not him. God does not answer. Some have suggested that the people pressured David to do it, that they were somehow at fault. David's words prove that the people were not at fault.
Evangelical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 05:18 AM   #83
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
David is asking God why he punished the people and not him. God does not answer. Some have suggested that the people pressured David to do it, that they were somehow at fault. David's words prove that the people were not at fault.

Ex 30:11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: 12 “When you take the census of the children of Israel for their number, then every man shall give a ransom for himself to the Lord, when you number them, that there may be no plague among them when you number them. 13 This is what everyone among those who are numbered shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (a shekel is twenty gerahs). The half-shekel shall be an offering to the Lord. 14 Everyone included among those who are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering to the Lord. 15 The rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when you give an offering to the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves. 16 And you shall take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shall appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the children of Israel before the Lord, to make atonement for yourselves.”


The command is given in Exodus, breaking this command was the sin. As you can see it was David who broke the command, but this word is actually spoken to all of Israel and when the agent arrived at their house to count them they could have given a ransom and it would have prevented the plague.

We have discussed this already in this thread, and this verse has already been quoted.

So since you have already accused God of being a criminal and deceitful (colluding with Satan) you might want to spend a second or two to understand this command.

When the Israelites were in Egypt the Egyptians put them into their own little community away from everyone else because they were shepherds. People had already learned at that time that being a shepherd of a flock of hundreds of sheep results in you being exposed to communicable childhood diseases that can be deadly to those who are not immune.

Israel was an agricultural society with many domesticated animals (sheep, goats, birds, horses, cows, etc). These animals will develop diseases that those who raise them will become immune to. That is essentially a childhood disease. It is not generally deadly to children, but can be deadly to adults. This is a great protection to those who care for domesticated animals. This was discussed by Jared Diamond in his book "Guns, Germs and Steel" as a key factor in the success of the Judaeo Christian Europeans. Unlike the Americas we had virtually all of the domesticated animals (except for Llamas).

In an agricultural society like Israel composed primarily of rural farms there would have been a lot of isolated pockets where people would be exposed to different diseases that the rest of the nation had not yet been exposed to. You might argue that the yearly feasts would cause everyone to mix three times a year, but that would only be those who were strong and not sick. When you go from house to house you will see the elderly and the young, the weak and the sick. Sending census agents from one end of the country to the other, in and out of every house, would cause these diseases to be rapidly transmitted across the entire country. They might infect livestock. It is very likely that census takers on a 9 month journey would be bringing along their own horses (pulling the wagon) sheep, goats, etc. They might get mice stowing away in their wagons. Since it appears from the record that this plague lasted for three days and struck at the harvest time when they were threshing wheat I am suggesting that this sounds like it was a mouse born plague.

But let us be very clear. Israel's success as a country, as an economy, and even militarily had a lot to do with the raising of domesticated animals. This is a scientific fact proven by anthropologists like Jared Diamond. These illnesses that make you sick and kill people protected Israel. Just like a knife, it has to be handled properly. The law of Moses told Israel how to handle this properly. So you are accusing God of being "deceitful" and acting "illegally". He had spoken the law plainly and was acting according to that law. The diseases, if handled properly would be a blessing to Israel. But if handled incorrectly they become a curse.

Why? If each person has to give a ransom that is for the service of the tabernacle it would be collected by the levitical priests. These priests lived in the community, hence there would be no widespread transmission of a "vector" for a disease. If anything was transported across the country it would have been shekels.

The idea that Israel was not aware of this danger is not believable. The book of Exodus makes it clear that the Egyptians knew they had to separate their community from the Israelites because they raised sheep. Who is not aware of childhood diseases? Today we give our kids vaccines, when I was younger everyone got measles and mumps. Everyone knew about this.

So then what does this have to do with a "ransom"? Man does not live like the apes, we are eusocial. We live in communities that number in the millions, we raise millions of domesticated animals. As a result we have these "childhood" diseases which require very large populations. When we left our little alpha male dominated tribes of 10 or 20 animals to live in large communities there were certain benefits, economies of scale, diversified labor, greater collective wealth, power, etc. This is why we can fly to the moon, this is why we have telecommunications, etc. But there are also new dangers as well. If you don't want to get killed by the A bomb, or hit by an 18 wheeler, or gased by a chemical leak then you need to pay a ransom. We don't charge a tribe of gorillas a tax, but humans pay a tax to live in these societies. With the benefits there are responsibilities. We have the EPA, the DMV, the Nuclear regulatory committee, etc. We are not eusocial as part of our DNA, we are taught to be eusocial. No one teaches ants or bees to be eusocial, but man is taught how to behave by the Bible. If you want the benefits of our eusocial society then you need to follow the laws in the Bible, simple. There is nothing illegal or deceitful about this.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 08:40 AM   #84
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Yes, I would have to agree with you that many would react in horror at you saying God is acting in a way that is illegal and deceitful.
Only because they don't read their Bible. From our good and very reliable book :

2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, . . . .
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 12:56 PM   #85
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Only because they don't read their Bible. From our good and very reliable book :

2Ch 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Ch 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, . . . .
12*And the messenger that went to call Micaiah spake to him, saying, Behold, the words of the prophets declare good to the king with one mouth: let thy word therefore, I pray thee, be like one of theirs, and speak thou good. 13*And Micaiah said, As Jehovah liveth, what my God saith, that will I speak. 14*And when he was come to the king, the king said unto him, [d]Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And he said, Go ye up, and prosper; and they shall be delivered into your hand. 15*And the king said to him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou speak unto me nothing but the truth in the name of Jehovah? 16*And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd: and Jehovah said, These have no master; let them return every man to his house in peace. 17*And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil? 18*And Micaiah said, Therefore hear ye the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. 19*And Jehovah said, Who shall [e]entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. 20*And there came forth [f]a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him. And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? 21*And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so. 22*Now therefore, behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Ahab did evil in the sight of the Lord more than all who were before him. He married Jezebel and went to serve Baal and worship him. He accused Naboth of blasphemy, stoned him to death and then stole his vineyard.

So then Ahab used lying prophets to accuse Naboth, kill him and steal his vineyard. Therefore it is righteous that he would listen to lying prophets to incite him to go to battle where he is killed. You reap what you sow.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 08:10 PM   #86
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Assuming that there was an actual event when David took a census of the people and sometime afterward there was an epidemic, a henoist without understanding of germ theory would probably attribute the epidemic to God's punishment. If, on reviewing the story in a later period when the author was living in a culture influenced by Zoroastrian dualism, attributing the epidemic to Satan would have made more sense. From the standpoint of history the difference in attribution between II Samuel 24:1 and Chronicles 21:1 is not surprising whereas from the standpoint of Biblical inerrantism it's a shock and a mystery.
What's a henoist?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-16-2017, 08:44 PM   #87
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,905
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
What's a henoist?
A typo. I meant henotheist.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 12:08 PM   #88
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
A typo. I meant henotheist.
Ok so it should read:

zeek:
Assuming that there was an actual event when David took a census of the people and sometime afterward there was an epidemic, a henotheist without understanding of germ theory would probably attribute the epidemic to God's punishment. If, on reviewing the story in a later period when the author was living in a culture influenced by Zoroastrian dualism, attributing the epidemic to Satan would have made more sense. From the standpoint of history the difference in attribution between II Samuel 24:1 and Chronicles 21:1 is not surprising whereas from the standpoint of Biblical inerrantism it's a shock and a mystery.


Henotheism (Greek ἑνας θεός henas theos "one god") is the belief in and worship of a single god while also believing in the existence or possible existence of other deities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

Wouldn't it apply better if you used the word monotheist?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.

Last edited by awareness; 02-17-2017 at 01:30 PM.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 12:29 PM   #89
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Ok so it should read:

zeek:
Assuming that there was an actual event when David took a census of the people and sometime afterward there was an epidemic, a henotheist without understanding of germ theory would probably attribute the epidemic to God's punishment. If, on reviewing the story in a later period when the author was living in a culture influenced by Zoroastrian dualism, attributing the epidemic to Satan would have made more sense. From the standpoint of history the difference in attribution between II Samuel 24:1 and Chronicles 21:1 is not surprising whereas from the standpoint of Biblical inerrantism it's a shock and a mystery.


Henotheism (Greek ἑνας θεός henas theos "one god") is the belief in and worship of a single god while also believing in the existence or possible existence of other deities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism

Wouldn't apply better is you used the word monotheist?
Why do you think the word was not inspired? You (Zeek in this case as quoted by Awareness) are referring to the authors of the Bible as though they were interpreting the events through tinted glasses of their philosophy of the day.

A very reasonable interpretation except that the Bible could not have the precision with regard to modern science if it were written based on the prevailing philosophy of the day. Who would think of this prohibition against census taking unless it were done in a certain way? Even if they had learned that taking a census can result in the spread of pestilence who could have come up with the solution to the problem?
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 02:31 PM   #90
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Why do you think the word was not inspired?
Thanks for asking. My problem with inspiration is that I can't figure out how it works. Maybe with your scientific acumen you can explain the mechanics of how it works. I say how it works because it appears that it doesn't happen any more, that it only happened back in the bronze and iron age's. Why's that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
You (Zeek in this case as quoted by Awareness) are referring to the authors of the Bible as though they were interpreting the events through tinted glasses of their philosophy of the day.
How could they do otherwise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNP
A very reasonable interpretation except that the Bible could not have the precision with regard to modern science if it were written based on the prevailing philosophy of the day. Who would think of this prohibition against census taking unless it were done in a certain way? Even if they had learned that taking a census can result in the spread of pestilence who could have come up with the solution to the problem?
So without any Biblical evidence you're still trying to claim that the census passed a contagion? Aren't you stretching your imagination a little too hard into the text? Why do you need to do that?
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 03:12 PM   #91
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Thanks for asking. My problem with inspiration is that I can't figure out how it works. Maybe with your scientific acumen you can explain the mechanics of how it works. I say how it works because it appears that it doesn't happen any more, that it only happened back in the bronze and iron age's. Why's that?


How could they do otherwise?


So without any Biblical evidence you're still trying to claim that the census passed a contagion? Aren't you stretching your imagination a little too hard into the text? Why do you need to do that?
The Biblical account is evidence. It provides first hand observations of what took place, a time frame, the fact that those collecting the census took 9 months, hence we can infer they travelled all over the country, we learn how many people died, how much time, and we get a very good idea of the time of year and what the people were doing at that time. We also know that David repented for having sinned. The sin was in not following God's command concerning taking a census. The point at which he was negligent was in not taking a ransom for everyone in Israel via the priesthood. His peace offering was to make that ransom himself for the Temple.

I would say that it works by God speaking. I see no evidence that God has stopped speaking, only that He is no longer releasing the word of His covenant.

I have had numerous experiences of God speaking to me. But none of those experiences were addendums to His covenant.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2017, 07:31 PM   #92
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
The Biblical account is evidence. It provides first hand observations of what took place, a time frame, the fact that those collecting the census took 9 months, hence we can infer they travelled all over the country, we learn how many people died, how much time, and we get a very good idea of the time of year and what the people were doing at that time. We also know that David repented for having sinned. The sin was in not following God's command concerning taking a census. The point at which he was negligent was in not taking a ransom for everyone in Israel via the priesthood. His peace offering was to make that ransom himself for the Temple.
The ransom was a shekel. How did paying a shekel prevent anyone from catching the contagion? Seems the shekel would be a carrier too.

And you are wrong about the Biblical evidence being firsthand observations. The Biblical evidence was stories first passed down orally, then written down, hundreds or a thousand years after.

Who was there to observe the creation story? Was there a camera man following Job and his friends around, who was allowed to gather with the sons of God in heaven?

Your scientific acumen is slipping.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 03:55 AM   #93
ZNPaaneah
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 6,020
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
The ransom was a shekel. How did paying a shekel prevent anyone from catching the contagion? Seems the shekel would be a carrier too.

And you are wrong about the Biblical evidence being firsthand observations. The Biblical evidence was stories first passed down orally, then written down, hundreds or a thousand years after.

Who was there to observe the creation story? Was there a camera man following Job and his friends around, who was allowed to gather with the sons of God in heaven?

Your scientific acumen is slipping.
If Chronicles is compiled from official records, then the official records would have been first hand accounts.

The law is very clear that the shekel was to be collected as an offering to the Lord (not the king) and used in the "service of the sanctuary". Hence it would have been collected by the Levitical priesthood. Notes would probably be sent from Jerusalem to the regions, but instead of a couple of census agents taking 9 months to travel all over the country the census would be collected by a myriad of Levitical priests, all of whom live in their respective regions. Second if the pastor was providing a census for everyone in his congregation (and since this is a nation in which everyone is Jewish that would give you a pretty accurate census) there would be no need for him to go from house to house. He would already know. Perhaps a little visiting and counting for new immigrants, but for the most part this could be done with each congregation without the possibility of spreading a contagion. The shekel is paying the price for each of the Pastors to collect, tabulate and transmit this information to Jerusalem.

If you read Post #64

"Epidemics occur when an agent and susceptible hosts are present in adequate numbers, and the agent can be effectively conveyed from a source to the susceptible hosts. More specifically, an epidemic may result from:
• A recent increase in amount or virulence of the agent,
• The recent introduction of the agent into a setting where it has not been before,
• An enhanced mode of transmission so that more susceptible persons are exposed,
• A change in the susceptibility of the host response to the agent, and/or
• Factors that increase host exposure or involve introduction through new portals of entry"


A metallic shekel is not going to introduce a virulent agent into a setting it has not been before. A person with the plague is not going to transmit the disease by handing you a copper coin. In fact copper and brass is antimicrobial. Also the coins would not be going to the "more susceptible people". When you go into homes you will come into contact with the sick and infirm. The money would be going to the synagogue. Also, a person who goes to synagogue every week who now goes to the synagogue and hands the Priest a few shekels has not "increased host exposure" nor have they created a "new portal of entry".

On the other hand census takers who have never been to the town before have created a new portal of entry. They have increased host exposure. If they are going house to house then they have come in contact with the most susceptible people with an enhanced mode of transmission.
__________________
They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God
ZNPaaneah is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2017, 08:22 AM   #94
awareness
Moderator of Alternative Views
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 6,648
Default Re: Did God incite David to Sin?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
If Chronicles is compiled from official records, then the official records would have been first hand accounts.

The law is very clear that the shekel was to be collected as an offering to the Lord (not the king) and used in the "service of the sanctuary". Hence it would have been collected by the Levitical priesthood. Notes would probably be sent from Jerusalem to the regions, but instead of a couple of census agents taking 9 months to travel all over the country the census would be collected by a myriad of Levitical priests, all of whom live in their respective regions. Second if the pastor was providing a census for everyone in his congregation (and since this is a nation in which everyone is Jewish that would give you a pretty accurate census) there would be no need for him to go from house to house. He would already know. Perhaps a little visiting and counting for new immigrants, but for the most part this could be done with each congregation without the possibility of spreading a contagion. The shekel is paying the price for each of the Pastors to collect, tabulate and transmit this information to Jerusalem.

If you read Post #64

"Epidemics occur when an agent and susceptible hosts are present in adequate numbers, and the agent can be effectively conveyed from a source to the susceptible hosts. More specifically, an epidemic may result from:
• A recent increase in amount or virulence of the agent,
• The recent introduction of the agent into a setting where it has not been before,
• An enhanced mode of transmission so that more susceptible persons are exposed,
• A change in the susceptibility of the host response to the agent, and/or
• Factors that increase host exposure or involve introduction through new portals of entry"


A metallic shekel is not going to introduce a virulent agent into a setting it has not been before. A person with the plague is not going to transmit the disease by handing you a copper coin. In fact copper and brass is antimicrobial. Also the coins would not be going to the "more susceptible people". When you go into homes you will come into contact with the sick and infirm. The money would be going to the synagogue. Also, a person who goes to synagogue every week who now goes to the synagogue and hands the Priest a few shekels has not "increased host exposure" nor have they created a "new portal of entry".

On the other hand census takers who have never been to the town before have created a new portal of entry. They have increased host exposure. If they are going house to house then they have come in contact with the most susceptible people with an enhanced mode of transmission.
Sorry I'm not able to jump thru all your hoops and loops, but it was fun to watch.
__________________

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:14 AM.


3.8.9