The Kingdom Principle of Relationships

[TLFisher]

This past November 12, 2011 when Ron Kangas was giving a message on The Church as the Kingdom of God, a point Ron emphasized was on the kingdom principle of relationships. Brother Ron's scriptural reference was the Gospel of Mark chapter 11. Specifically, verses 25 and 26:

Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions.”]

Several questions I have. Suppose you heard this same message whether in Bellevue, Washington or in another region, do you take it to heart?
In recent years from saints meeting in the local churches I have touched a stronghold that is unforgiving of brothers like Max Rapoport, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, and so forth. A heart of no desire to learn the other side of the story or (the other side of the coin). A mind-set that has put their faith in the words levied against these brothers. These brothers are in their 80's now and this is still the Age of Grace. The Kingdom Age has yet to arrive. Until that time, "forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions."

[KSA]

Now I find it rather peculiar when we devide the kingdom age and the grace age - as if God is a double-faced Janus - today He is a nice God who is merciful and forgiving, tomorrow He is not nice anymore - He is a wrathful God. I would say that the grace is the nature of His kingdom. He is always full of mercy and cannot change.

The reason why Blended Brothers cannot forgive those who left is because they have a distorted view of God. Their God is wrathful - He is quick to punish. Their God is the God of Truth, not the God of Love (as if truth and love are opposites).

I was recently thinking about the words of Jesus when He commanded to make peace with your adversary while you are still on the way. I was thinking why the guy would refuse to make peace on the way. He would refuse because he was sure that the Judge would be on his side. For him justice was more important than peace and mercy, and he missed that the Judge is the Peacemaker! Blended Brothers are absolutely sure that the Judge is on their side. They think He will pour rage on their adversaries. However, the heavenly Judge would ask, "I have forgiven you so much, couldn't you forgive your brother that little? Didn't you know that mercy triumphs over judgement. Therefore, get your judgment without mercy, since you showed no mercy!"

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by KSA

The reason why Blended Brothers cannot forgive those who left is because they have a distorted view of God. Their God is wrathful - He is quick to punish. Their God is the God of Truth, not the God of Love (as if truth and love are opposites).

I was recently thinking about the words of Jesus when He commanded to make peace with your adversary while you are still on the way. I was thinking why the guy would refuse to make peace on the way. He would refuse because he was sure that the Judge would be on his side. For him justice was more important than peace and mercy, and he missed that the Judge is the Peacemaker! Blended Brothers are absolutely sure that the Judge is on their side. They think He will pour rage on their adversaries. However, the heavenly Judge would ask, "I have forgiven you so much, couldn't you forgive your brother that little? Didn't you know that mercy triumphs over judgement. Therefore, get your judgment without mercy, since you showed no mercy!"

You mention the blended brothers, but it's more broad than that. The scope of the recovery is generally unforgiving of those who had left. Suppose you're in a public place an you come across someone who remembers you from meeting in the recovery. You greet them, but they cannot receive you. At parting you leave extolling God's blessing.
Yes, we read in Luke 7 Jesus' parables of two debtors, One owed 50 denarii and the other 500 denarii. How come forgiveness is so easy to receive, but so hard to give? The we see in Romans 15:7 where Paul wrote to accept one another even as Christ accepted us. How come is it to receive Christ's accepting is easy, but to accept someone who left a particular fellowship is not?

I have listened to many ministry messages where the scope is about being overcomers for the kingdom age. What about now? The thought should not be "I cannot receive KSA" or" I cannot receive Terry because of their concepts."
It's concepts where brothers and sisters get written off as "negative", "opposers", "poisonous", or "rebellious". As much reference there is to the New Testament Ministry, there is not much reality exhibited. Instead of using terminology that divdes the Body, there should be more terminology briniging each and everyone into a uniting bond of love.
If a brother is to speak about the kingdom principle of relationships, it's fine if Mark 11 is referenced, but don't neglect 1 Corinhtians 13:4-7

"Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. "

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by KSA

The reason why Blended Brothers cannot forgive those who left is because they have a distorted view of God.

Very keen observation. This is why it matters what teachings we receive and from whom we receive them. Many of these "blended" brothers have been receiving a distorted view of God for 40 or 50 years. So is there any wonder why they act like they do towards their brothers and sisters in Christ? The current teachings and practices in the LC are simply the end product.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Very keen observation. This is why it matters what teachings we receive and from whom we receive them. Many of these "blended" brothers have been receiving a distorted view of God for 40 or 50 years. So is there any wonder why they act like they do towards their brothers and sisters in Christ? The current teachings and practices in the LC are simply the end product.

One matter that characterizes the Recovery is the way that the brothers get "perfected." As the story goes, M. E. Barber perfected WN by brutally rebuking him on a regular basis. That story became the justification for the way WL treated (actually mis-treated) his coworkers -- regular weekly "ice water baths" as some have stated. As the story was always told, the recently quarantined TC was the most gifted disciple of WL when it came to this form of "perfecting."

To a huge degree, this relationship structure permeated the whole of the Recovery, which explains why this distorted view of God is so prevalent among them. (Note that I differentiate this practice from what many gifted leaders have done to "challenge" their younger brothers in Christ.) To a certain degree, public humiliations can bring grace and spiritual growth to the receiver, much the same way as the torturing inquisitors were "used" by God to "perfect" His children before they entered into glory.

After years of observation, I became convinced that several rotten phenomena resulted from this practice. Firstly, an established hierarchy was maintained by constant negative reinforcement. Via public rebukes, all quickly learn who is the real "boss" around here. Secondly, a pattern of abuse was all too often disseminated throughout the LC's, even affecting the relationships with parents and children. Thirdly, brothers were trained to become man-pleasers rather than God-pleasers. All of these perpetuated a distorted view of God, and damaged relationships in the kingdom.

[77150]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Very keen observation. This is why it matters what teachings we receive and from whom we receive them. Many of these "blended" brothers have been receiving a distorted view of God for 40 or 50 years. So is there any wonder why they act like they do towards their brothers and sisters in Christ? The current teachings and practices in the LC are simply the end product.

19:27 Cease, my son, to hear the instruction that causeth to err from the words of knowledge.

Isn't this verse from Proverbs the point here?

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One matter that characterizes the Recovery is the way that the brothers get "perfected." As the story goes, M. E. Barber perfected WN by brutally rebuking him on a regular basis. That story became the justification for the way WL treated (actually mis-treated) his coworkers -- regular weekly "ice water baths" as some have stated. As the story was always told, the recently quarantined TC was the most gifted disciple of WL when it came to this form of "perfecting."

To a huge degree, this relationship structure permeated the whole of the Recovery, which explains why this distorted view of God is so prevalent among them. (Note that I differentiate this practice from what many gifted leaders have done to "challenge" their younger brothers in Christ.) To a certain degree, public humiliations can bring grace and spiritual growth to the receiver, much the same way as the torturing inquisitors were "used" by God to "perfect" His children before they entered into glory.

After years of observation, I became convinced that several rotten phenomena resulted from this practice. Firstly, an established hierarchy was maintained by constant negative reinforcement. Via public rebukes, all quickly learn who is the real "boss" around here. Secondly, a pattern of abuse was all too often disseminated throughout the LC's, even affecting the relationships with parents and children. Thirdly, brothers were trained to become man-pleasers rather than God-pleasers. All of these perpetuated a distorted view of God, and damaged relationships in the kingdom.

12:18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.

It seems to me that your point is that they abuse saints under the guise of "perfecting" them. Which can seem similar to "challenging" them. However, the difference between the two is that "the tongue of the wise is health" which is not the case with abuse. Is this your point, or did I miss it?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After years of observation, I became convinced that several rotten phenomena resulted from this practice. Firstly, an established hierarchy was maintained by constant negative reinforcement. Via public rebukes, all quickly learn who is the real "boss" around here. Secondly, a pattern of abuse was all too often disseminated throughout the LC's, even affecting the relationships with parents and children. Thirdly, brothers were trained to become man-pleasers rather than God-pleasers. All of these perpetuated a distorted view of God, and damaged relationships in the kingdom.

Ohio, this is what appears to be an application of Authority & Submission, but excluding the character aspect of the Lord's Worker. End result being as you've indicated.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 77150

12:18 There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.

It seems to me that your point is that they abuse saints under the guise of "perfecting" them. Which can seem similar to "challenging" them. However, the difference between the two is that "the tongue of the wise is health" which is not the case with abuse. Is this your point, or did I miss it?

Not sure if that verse adequately describes the differences.

[Indiana]

For the last 11 years I have reported on the actual history in the Local Churches, as opposed to the official, yet filtered version which changed history from what it was to what leaders want it to be. This action sacrificed truth for fiction, and the errors in judgment among former members, especially leaders have prevailed ever since.

An example of this occurred yesterday (Dec 31, 2011) when I was at lunch with a former leader. We encountered a couple who recognized the former elder and would not greet him though he extended his hand to the brother for a handshake. They had already shunned him, (and me), minutes earlier and now this took place. They sincerely felt that they could not greet him as they would have liked since they still remembered and were grieved about the damage he brought to their regional church life through his visit 23 years ago. He had “killed” saints by his speaking, including ones they were close to that left the church.

He listened attentively to their vehement protestations and when given the opportunity he said calmly and slowly with a smile, “This is a misunderstanding”, indicating that there was more to it than what they had observed. But more pent-up protestations came forth from the couple. I had asked the brother if he ever considered the other side of the story and he admitted that there is always two sides, but they were not interested in this. They knew what happened to those they loved and cared for and John was to blame.

The sister said they were just being honest with him in letting him know where they stand. I suggested to her that if she really wanted to be honest she needed to hear the whole story.

This couple is from the church in Vista, where the brother, Chris Nurstad is an elder. They had just attended a training meeting here in Anaheim before having lunch where we were sovereignly sitting next to them in a huge Chinese restaurant.

John Ingalls is the former elder, and co-worker, the subject of their grief. Aside from their insensitivity to him as an aged person and formerly beloved leader, who they couldn’t forgive and grace with a handshake, they had been badly misinformed on his history and the root causes of turmoil that reached them in the region of San Diego that had nothing to do with John.

I have several times asked the leaders to give an accurate account of our history but they have steadfastly refused. Since 2001, they have never refuted my writings, but have done their best to ignore me, and the truth. They have been bearing false witness for many years and train others to do the same and will not repent. They continue in their proud manner and sin without conscience. Such shameful occurrences as I witnessed should stop, as should the perpetuation of sacrificing truth for fiction, and the practice of hiding history in the Lord’s recovery.

www.HidingHistoryintheLordsRecovery.us


Steve Isitt

[77150]

5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To a huge degree, this relationship structure permeated the whole of the Recovery, which explains why this distorted view of God is so prevalent among them. (Note that I differentiate this practice from what many gifted leaders have done to "challenge" their younger brothers in Christ.) To a certain degree, public humiliations can bring grace and spiritual growth to the receiver, much the same way as the torturing inquisitors were "used" by God to "perfect" His children before they entered into glory.

Perfecting sounds kinda harsh, I like the term "help". The leading ones are just trying to "help" the younger brothers, and if the younger or lower ranking brother leaves then... well, they just couldn't take the "help."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by seeking1

Perfecting sounds kinda harsh, I like the term "help". The leading ones are just trying to "help" the younger brothers, and if the younger or lower ranking brother leaves then... well, they just couldn't take the "help."

Perfecting was the word. No doubt about it. At one time, in fact, "perfecting" was all the rage in Anaheim. Probably during the years after the "Max" storm, WL had a weekly "Perfecting Training" in which certain brothers were "perfected" on the platform, by being "diagnosed" in public before all the congregation. By using the term "training," WL had much more liberty to do things they would never do in normal "church."

Concerning not being able to "take the help," at what point does it transition from "help" to abuse? I have witnessed a long trail of precious brothers in the GLA over the years who have left for no other reason than they "had a problem with TC." Should leaders ever reach the point where they decide to "dump" TC, and try to get all those other brothers back? When a brother leaves, why do all the other brothers give the "Perfecter" a free pass, and then pass judgment on the poor disgraced brother?

I personally believe that when "help" or "perfecting" is really of the Lord, then eventually the Lord will witness in the receiver's heart that the fellowship is of God. But wouldn't a private time of fellowship be a more constructive venue? With such a trail of emigrants seeking better pasture outside the Recovery, should not someone ask if this program is even "working?" I do believe an honest evaluation by any number of leaders, would persuade them that there are far too many "extras" that accompany this type of ministry, as I listed in Post #5.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

An example of this occurred yesterday (Dec 31, 2011) when I was at lunch with a former leader. We encountered a couple who recognized the former elder and would not greet him though he extended his hand to the brother for a handshake. They had already shunned him, (and me), minutes earlier and now this took place. They sincerely felt that they could not greet him as they would have liked since they still remembered and were grieved about the damage he brought to their regional church life through his visit 23 years ago. He had “killed” saints by his speaking, including ones they were close to that left the church.

He listened attentively to their vehement protestations and when given the opportunity he said calmly and slowly with a smile, “This is a misunderstanding”, indicating that there was more to it than what they had observed. But more pent-up protestations came forth from the couple. I had asked the brother if he ever considered the other side of the story and he admitted that there is always two sides, but they were not interested in this. They knew what happened to those they loved and cared for and John was to blame.

A prime example where the kingdom principle of relationships is lacking. Perhaps this couple did not hear Ron's message. Go back and read Mark 11. Better yet since Ron is the brother who gave the message, has his concept towards John Ingalls changed?
This couple as beneifical as they apparently may be to Vista is an example of a systemic problem. Only willing to look at one side, aka "what the brothers said". Just as Ananias sold property in Acts 5 and expected it to stand as the whole, is a word given about former elders such as John Ingalls and expect it to stand as the whole. This couple is not the first ones I've heard of. There have been others directly or indirectly who have stated no desire to learn the other side of the coin other than what Witness Lee presented in Fermentation of the Present Rebellion. On a personal note I do appreciate one brother from the table (next to Indiana and John Ingalls) who acknowledged John. A brother I remember from my time meeting with the Church in Bellevue.
In regard to what this couple experienced in San Diego. One possibility I raised is those saints this couple loved and cared for who left could have had concerns of their own and John's speaking brought their concerns into focus and confirmed.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by 77150

5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Yes, just like in Luke 6:22-23

Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Terry

Yes, just like in Luke 6:22-23

Blessed are you when men hate you, and ostracize you, and insult you, and scorn your name as evil, for the sake of the Son of Man. Be glad in that day and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven. For in the same way their fathers used to treat the prophets.

Praise the Lord!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by 77150

Praise the Lord!

Amen! When brother John was treated as he was at the restaurant, when Benson spoke about Thankful Jane at a Winter Training, or when Ron spoke about Indiana at a conference in Ecuador, it may not some like it but from reading scripture these dear saints were being blessed.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Indiana

John Ingalls is the former elder, and co-worker, the subject of their grief. Aside from their insensitivity to him as an aged person and formerly beloved leader, who they couldn’t forgive and grace with a handshake, they had been badly misinformed on his history and the root causes of turmoil that reached them in the region of San Diego that had nothing to do with John.

A response to the China Buffet incident from a quarantined brother in Illinois:

Thanks Steve for sharing that; pretty sad.
Did I mention that I went to a memorial service for an older sister (Margaret Simms) at the meeting hall in Chicago a couple of weeks ago? Actually quite encouraging. The saints were very welcoming.

How is Brother John's health? I've heard he's declining a little.


He is declining very much. Movements were slow. His vitality low, but his spirit was sensitive. I was told saints just hope he can stay with them a couple more months.

He said to me resignedly, "you know what I would like to do? There are two brothers I want to see..." He has never lost his longing for fellowship, mentioning only two brothers that day. He said that he felt very close to Benson since their early years in the churches till the time John departed, John beginning with Brother Lee at the very start in 1962, and Benson joining local church fellowship in 1965. He said he never had a problem with Benson and that he had taken hospitality in his home and Benson the same in John's home, on a number of occasions. John also mentioned that Ron Kangas is another brother he would like to see. He said "these two", and noted with a big smile, with definite emphasis, "especially Benson".

When we got back to his place, he wanted us to go in and we did so, having a short time of prayer regarding the incident and for Chris Nerstad and his wife; two brothers with them; and for Benson, Ron and other blending brothers, that the Lord would have His way with us all.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

There are two brothers I want to see..." He has never lost his longing for fellowship, mentioning only two brothers that day. He said that he felt very close to Benson since their early years in the churches till the time John departed, John beginning with Brother Lee at the very start in 1962, and Benson joining local church fellowship in 1965. He said he never had a problem with Benson and that he had taken hospitality in his home and Benson the same in John's home, on a number of occasions. John also mentioned that Ron Kangas is another brother he would like to see. He said "these two", and noted with a big smile, with definite emphasis, "especially Benson".

When we got back to his place, he wanted us to go in and we did so, having a short time of prayer regarding the incident and for Chris Nerstad and his wife; two brothers with them; and for Benson, Ron and other blending brothers, that the Lord would have His way with us all.

Amen! Hearts need to be softened. Strongholds torn down. Brothers and sisters brought into unity.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Indiana

He said to me resignedly, "you know what I would like to do? There are two brothers I want to see..." He has never lost his longing for fellowship, mentioning only two brothers that day. He said that he felt very close to Benson since their early years in the churches till the time John departed, John beginning with Brother Lee at the very start in 1962, and Benson joining local church fellowship in 1965. He said he never had a problem with Benson and that he had taken hospitality in his home and Benson the same in John's home, on a number of occasions. John also mentioned that Ron Kangas is another brother he would like to see. He said "these two", and noted with a big smile, with definite emphasis, "especially Benson".

What a gracious brother!

John Ingalls longing to see the two brothers who smeared his reputation and disgraced him before all the saints.

That's the expression of Christ as the love of God so sorely missing in the Recovery. There's more real grace in this short testimony than in years of hard labor at LSM.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Terry

You mention the blended brothers, but it's more broad than that. The scope of the recovery is generally unforgiving of those who had left. Suppose you're in a public place an you come across someone who remembers you from meeting in the recovery. You greet them, but they cannot receive you. At parting you leave extolling God's blessing.
Yes, we read in Luke 7 Jesus' parables of two debtors, One owed 50 denarii and the other 500 denarii. How come forgiveness is so easy to receive, but so hard to give? The we see in Romans 15:7 where Paul wrote to accept one another even as Christ accepted us. How come is it to receive Christ's accepting is easy, but to accept someone who left a particular fellowship is not?

I think this is why so many former members simply close the book on the LRC chapter of their lives and try to move on almost as if it didn't happen. They know they cannot try to establish or renew relationships with LRC members without opening up cans of ugly worms that they would simply rather not deal with.

This is what hurts most. It's like you lost members of your family and good friends, which seems wrong before the Lord. Of course, the LRCers would probably view this discomfort as evidence there is something amiss on our part. That just makes the whole situation that much sadder.

In the end I think you have to move on, and keep giving your hurt back to the Lord, but looking to establish new Christian relationships. But one should never think it can never again be as good as it was. That's the lie of Satan. The LRC had no monopoly on Christian fulfillment. To think so is to just believe a lie.

[Cal]

It takes a lot of confidence for a former LRC member to walk back into company with existing LRCers and enjoy what they have to offer while not being intimidated by their spoken and unspoken suggestions that the former member needs to rejoin. One must come to a place of true peace with his choices to do this. Given the ambivalent, confusing feelings and registrations one usually goes through upon leaving (which can go on for years) it's no wonder many simply steer clear of LRCers. This, however, can cause feeling of guilt, too. Just one more thing to deal with. The Lord is gracious though and will get you through. Always believe that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I think this is why so many former members simply close the book on the LRC chapter of their lives and try to move on almost as if it didn't happen. They know they cannot try to establish or renew relationships with LRC members without opening up cans of ugly worms that they would simply rather not deal with.

This is what hurts most. It's like you lost members of your family and good friends, which seems wrong before the Lord. Of course, the LRCers would probably view this discomfort as evidence there is something amiss on our part. That just makes the whole situation that much sadder.

In the end I think you have to move on, and keep giving your hurt back to the Lord, but looking to establish new Christian relationships. But one should never think it can never again be as good as it was. That's the lie of Satan. The LRC had no monopoly on Christian fulfillment. To think so is to just believe a lie.

Igzy, I've read your post. There's no denying pain whether directly or indirectly. How relationships get severed whether because your relationship whether via family or friendship is conditional according to the ministry. Whether as individual christians or as members of Christ's body, the LSM brand of local churches is not the end all in the normal Christian churchlife. It's one assembly of many. Those who have touched our lives, we should never give up on. Especially in our relationships. Where we meet should regulate who we can or cannot have fellowship with. As new Christian realtionships are established similtaneously I cannot give up on the old ones completely. True there may be some who will reject you because of where you don't meet, but at the same time there are brothers and sisters who will receive you without condition.

[TLFisher]

Based on this portion of a message Ron Kangas gave last November, I had written Ron an email. To date, there has been no response.