Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit

[bearbear]

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However early on in the LC's history (before Witness Lee gained as much influence as he did perhaps) it seems like tongues, deliverance and healings were practiced here and there. My Grandma has many wild stories from her early start in the LCs of Taiwan in the 50s and 60s of healings and deliverances during her evangelism trips.

My mother was also healed of a leg injury when she was about 7 or 8 by a brother in Taiwan with the gift of healing (who's healing ministry Witness Lee later put a stop to).

I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

Just last weekend I attended a men's retreat in my church. On Sunday morning, I had pretty bad nasal congestion and had trouble speaking and breathing which was unfortunate because I was assigned to lead devotion in the morning. After a quick prayer in my head to the Lord about this matter, one brother gets up and announces that he felt led to pray for healing for anyone with nasal congestion. I raised my hand and after the group prayed for me, my sinuses cleared immediately. I've never had my nasal congestion symptoms disappear so quickly and I was more than ready to serve in our morning devotion that would follow.

I was happy and thankful, but not that surprised as I've experienced and seen these type of miracles occur over and over again in my church group and during our evangelism trips where we pray for healing to demonstrate the power of God to help others believe in God's love for them through Jesus.

That's one of the more tamer stories and I have a lot more I can share later, but that's the most recent one. I just wanted to open up this thread to anyone who had other direct experiences with the Holy Spirit and has adopted a supernatural worldview after leaving the LCs.

Acts 4:29-30
And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

[Freedom]

This is an interesting topic, because it seems like in the LC, they like to steer clear of gifts in general. Of course, there is one "gift" (prophecy) that they are obsessed with. Since I have been in the LC my whole life, I don't know how the LC views on gifts compares to non-charismatic churches.

In general, I think this is a touchy subject that people like to steer clear of because of the misuse by people who purport to perform "supernatural" healing and miracles.

What I do know is that God works in mysterious ways. It is undeniable that supernatural events can occur and do occur in all of our lives. Even though I am still in the LC, I never cease to be amazed in the ways that God works.

It is hard to think of any specific examples, but I do know that I have had different dreams where I knew at some point afterwards that it was God speaking to me.

In the LC, because of the devaluation of the gifts, I don't expect to have any extraordinary experiences. What is completely unbalanced about the LC is that they rarely talk about gifts, but all the sudden when it comes to prophecy, it's a whole different story. They even devote a whole meeting to it (prophesying meeting).

The implication in the which WL made is that there is only one gift and everyone has the same gift, that being the gift of prophecy. Everyone is expected to "prophecy" in a meeting each week so that is a huge implication right there. They don't have a "healing" meeting or a "speaking in tongues" meeting (I'm not saying that they should) so it seem quite ironic that they have become so obsessed with a certain gift.

Sadly to say, because of this imbalance, I don't think many in the LC including myself have any awareness of what gift they may have. I am aware of different ways I am viewed as "useful" to the LC, but does that really mean I have a certain gift?

I think the end effect is that many LC members feel discouraged concerning their usefulness to God. Even though everyone is told the are "function" by prophesying each week, it is really only of benefit to those who actually have that gift.

Sometimes I am pressured to prophecy and I know that I have nothing to say. So basically I make something up that serves no other purpose than to satisfy those who are pressuring me. Afterward when people say something like "I really enjoyed your sharing today", I think to myself and realize what a hypocrite I was and how hypocritical the LC is. How could anyone enjoy something I made up on the spot that I could care less about?

In summary, I can definitely say that I believe in supernatural occurrences. I can think of several people in the LC who have share things with me now and then, however I think as an unspoken rule in the LC, we know to keep such things to ourselves.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is an interesting topic, because it seems like in the LC, they like to steer clear of gifts in general. Of course, there is one "gift" (prophecy) that they are obsessed with. Since I have been in the LC my whole life, I don't know how the LC views on gifts compares to non-charismatic churches.

Just wanted to add that the gift of prophecy the way it is used in the LC is considered by most to be the "gift of teaching" outside LC/Brethren. Many people in my church credited me with the gift of teaching, perhaps due in part to many years that I spent in the LC "prophesying"

People with prophetic gifting can discern what's in people's hearts and reveal them.

1 Cor 14:25 (NLT)
As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, "God is truly here among you."

Or they can also prophesy over what will happen in the future to further God's kingdom such as happened in Acts 11:28-29

"One of them named Agabus stood up in one of the meetings and predicted by the Spirit that a great famine was coming upon the entire Roman world. (This was fulfilled during the reign of Claudius.) the believers in Antioch decided to send relief to the brothers and sisters in Judea, everyone giving as much as they could."

A great book to read on the gift of prophecy is one by Jack Deere:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Beginners-.../dp/0830746021

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It is hard to think of any specific examples, but I do know that I have had different dreams where I knew at some point afterwards that it was God speaking to me....

In summary, I can definitely say that I believe in supernatural occurrences. I can think of several people in the LC who have share things with me now and then, however I think as an unspoken rule in the LC, we know to keep such things to ourselves.

A sister in the LC my wife was close to often had dreams she believed were from God but was afraid to disclose it to anyone else because people in the LC would think she is crazy. Similar to your case, the dreams often described events that happened later in the future. This could be an indication of prophetic gifting.

Job 33:14-15
For God speaks again and again, though people do not recognize it. He speaks in dreams, in visions of the night, when deep sleep falls on people as they lie in their beds.

1 Cor 14:1 (NLT)
Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives--especially the ability to prophesy.

[zeek]

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

Wow I've only scratched the surface so far

There was a former NASA engineer, well educated, has a PhD, who is in my Aunt's small group. He was really into Qi-Gong and some kind of high level master. Not many Chinese, even Christians including my dad, are aware that Qi Gong has some pretty deep occult origins.

During a period in his life he would get these random urges to kill people. An incident occurred in his workplace that almost had him go through with murdering a co-worker but he was able to prevent it before it got serious.

A friend of his told him he needed to connect with Christians who know the Holy Spirit, so he recommended that he go to my aunt's small group.

So eventually one night during the small group, during a prayer of deliverance, this NASA engineer is on the ground, squirming and foaming at the mouth. After the demon left him, he later immediately gave his life to Jesus and is now still there attending my aunt's small group and deeply involved in serving in our church

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

I'll second that. Me to. Gives me the Heebie-jeebies. And I think I feel that unique particular tickle ... of smoke going up my backside.

Call James Randi.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

Originally Posted by awareness

I'll second that. Me to. Gives me the Heebie-jeebies. And I think I feel that unique particular tickle ... of smoke going up my backside.

This is exactly what happened when Jesus walked thru Galilee and surrounding regions casting out demons.

I think the ancient Israelites got creeped out too with double heebie-jeebies when Legion was delivered, and those hogs ran into the sea.

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit...I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today...I just wanted to open up this thread to anyone who had other direct experiences with the Holy Spirit and has adopted a supernatural worldview after leaving the LCs.

Acts 4:29-30
And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Perhaps the reason that "signs and wonders" got set aside in mainstream, post-Reformation Christianity (tho revived in charismatic wings of RCC & Protestantism) can be found in the emergence of church history itself. We tell truncated tales of what happened (i.e. history) and perhaps miss important events along the way -- our view becomes, in a word, oversimplified. To make things simple, and easily grasped, we simplify the story; didn't Lee give us a simplified history? Lee's version: Jesus, then Paul, then a dark "interregnum" with a few mystics sprinkled here and there, then suddenly a "recovery" with Luther, Darby, Nee and Lee. Hallelujah for the Lord's recovery! Right!?! And this recovery story allowed the early 19th century European (Wales, Scotland) revivals, pre-Nee, with their "works of power" accompanying them, as part of it. But they ceased. Why? Because it was convenient to Lee's oversimplified history.

So let me give my own, admittedly brief history. The NT is full of works of power. Chock-a-block full. Angels ascending and descending, heavens opened, demons leaving people with foaming mouths and loud shrieks, miraculous healings, mysterious portents ("Go into Jerusalem, there you will see a man walking with a water jar. Follow him..."). This continued post-resurrection: Peter and Paul both evidenced "gifts of the Holy Spirit" and miraculous "works of power". The tales, post canonized scripture, in church history, continue, albeit sporadically, of the "signs and wonders performed in the name of your holy servant Jesus" (Acts 4:30). But something happened, I believe, in the 4th through 10th centuries, a turn the narrative focus to "truth" instead of "power". (Like Lee switching his gears in the 1970s from "life" to "truth".) Somehow the idea of concretizing orthodoxy became paramount. That is what I see in the literature.

Thus set the stage for the Great Schism. The church fellowship was eventually broken asunder over issues of "truth", and proper organizational schemes, among other issues. The focus had gone from signs and wonders to the proper arrangement of words, and the proper arrangement of ecclesiastical structure. So when Luther "rebelled" against the RCC 500 years later, many of the Pre-Schism experiences, indeed the entire Orthodox testimonies (Greek, Syrian, Slavic, Ethiopian etc) were long forgotten, and the RCC was conceptually dominant as the "Great Harlot" astride the entire earth. Luther had a truncated view, and a truncated story of history and his place in it. (Unless someone can point out Luther recognizing the Orthodox churches, which I would like to see. Probably not, tho; they had just left the Middle Ages and the conceptual worldview was greatly reduced. To turn to the physical for analogy, the late Middle-Age focus, and argument, was over whether the sun revolved around the earth, or vice versa, and whether Asia lay to the east or west of Europe, and what if anything was between them.)

So the story of what lay in the past, to Luther and Calvin et al, was simplified, merely to recover salvation of grace, and by faith. Works, and angels ascending and descending, and "You simply speak the word and my servant will be healed" were bit players on the scene, showing that the pre-resurrection Jesus was clearly the Savior. But the rest of the textual record, and the reading of history, was minimized, even to non-existence.

Now to my point: I believe that just like Luther and Calvin, we all look at the text and tell ourselves simplified stories. And what stories we tell ourselves control what we see in the text. This is my point about orthodoxy: I understand its place and recognize its purpose, and I accept it, but pre-Nicene they were free to find meaning, and reality, where the text led them. Post Nicene they had to agree whether the Spirit came from the Son or from the Father. And they were willing to fight, and to separate, over their stories, their truths... never mind if nobody saw any works of power of the Holy Spirit again, beyond perhaps the miracle of faith and regeneration, and some amount of transformation.

So I think that Lee telling us that Nee read all the books worth reading, and sorted the conceptual wheat from the chaff, was really aggrandizing, self-serving nonsense. (like a 3rd grader telling the 1st graders that he is teaching post-graduate level studies: "There is simply nothing beyond my view, and my story of reality").That led to the idea of Nee, then Lee, being the "seer of the age", with his extremely simplified understanding of the text completely dominating the ecclesia. So instead of each one of us coming to the ecclesia and "each one has" a song, a story, a teaching, an interpretation, a testimony, we instead gathered and all talked about Lee's songs, stories, teachings, interpretations, and testimonies. So if Lee wasn't interested in works of power, which he wasn't, neither were we. If Lee couldn't see heavens opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man, then neither could we.

Today the door is open. Each one of us has a vision, an experience, a tongue, a gift, a healing. Each one has something to bring. So if bearbear talks about miraculous healings and I follow and talk about John 1:51, how do you know if we are not talking about the same thing? Neither bearbear or I is the sole "seer of the age" to dominate the conversation, but each of us has a part to play in the great unfolding. His experience hopefully illuminates mine, when we gather in Jesus' ecclesia, and vice versa.

Whenever you come together in His name, and are in agreement, the gates of Hades themselves cannot withstand your collective power. The dead will be raised, the prisoners freed, the eyes of the blind will be opened, the lame will walk, the mute will suddenly praise God for His mighty works among you. The name of Jesus has come, and we're gathered in this name, and in this name each receive his or her neighbor. By faith in this name we can respect the portion of each one who has. Even the agnostics and atheists are welcome; they can chatter on the fringes of the gathering. I was there once -- why should I refuse others? Let them continue their journey. If we are truly one and our voices are in harmony (even allowing multifarious voices, visions, experiences, understandings) in the Jesus meeting, then the unbeliever will perhaps be impressed and will fall down, exclaiming that God is working among us. If we simply gather to argue about the "truth", then the unbeliever will rightly go on, still looking for reality.

[bearbear]

I've never seen angels before. However an elder at my church has a gifting that allows him to see angels sometimes and so does one of his daughters. They sometimes see the same angels in their house and elsewhere.

Well here's a story of angels my mother told me.

My grandma was a single mother who raised 8 kids in Taiwan (3 of them were hers, 5 others were adopted after my Grandma' sister in law committed suicide). After she became a Christian, she lived by faith and had many miraculous experiences of prayers answered. In many instances stuff like this would happen: the family would have no food or money and my Grandma would simply pray and an hour later someone would show up at the door with groceries. Despite being poor, they never had a lack because of my Grandmother's faith.

During some time there was a buddhist/taoist temple (Taiwanese religion is syncretic of many eastern religions) that was constructed next to the house. My grandmother was afraid there would be a demonic influence near my house as incense and smoke arose from the temple everyday. So she prayed that God would protect the family and the house.

One day my mom was with her little sister in the bedroom lying on the bed. As my aunt looked out the window, she saw a chorus of angels singing next to the house! They took that to mean that God had answered their mom's prayer. They also understood it as a sign that God cared for and loved them.

Sounds crazy but my Grandma and my parents aren't Charismatic at all. Having later passed through many decades in the LC they shy away from anything supernatural. According to my Grandma, these kind of things happened regularly in the LCs before Witness Lee's influence grew in Taiwan. Yet they can't deny what they experienced and saw.

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've never seen angels before. .

Maybe you completely misunderstand me, or else think my point is not worth noticing or commenting on. I think it important, so let me reiterate.

When the writer of Hebrews said, "but we see Jesus" he/she didn't mean that he saw a vision of Jesus before him/her. Rather that we can perceive Jesus, made a little lower than the angels (incarnation), typified in the OT record. Also the glories that followed, etc. The author didn't see a "vision" before him physically, but rather had "revelation" that by faith he could percieve the hidden spiritual world through the physical world that was represented in the text of people like David, Abraham, Moses, etc.

Now, we can "see Jesus" in Psalm 3 where the writer says "I laid me down and slept; I awaked for the LORD sustained me" ("I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to raise it up again, etc"), and Psalm 119 "All you evil doers get behind me" (several times in the NT, including to PETER!).

Etc etc. We can see Jesus there. Lee read the Bible with a personal lens, with a historically (Protestantism/Bretheren) derived lens, with an Asian cultural lens, with a theologically blindered lens. So if he couldn't see Jesus he mesmerized us to follow and similarly be blind.

Likewise with the angels. If the Centurion said, "I also have servants under me..." who was he talking about? So when Jesus told Nathaniel that he would see heaven opened and the angels ascending and descending, then maybe Nathaniel saw this fulfilled when Jesus turned the water to wine, when he spoke a word and the Centurion's servant was healed, etc.

My thesis is that a marvelous supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is that we can come to the text and see Jesus, and see angels ascending and descending, see the heavens opened, etc. Or is it just my vain imagination? That's why I come to the ekklesia, to present my visions. If others don't get it, then I can let it go. No big deal. But at least I have been freed from the blinders of Lee & Nee.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

My thesis is that a marvelous supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is that we can come to the text and see Jesus, and see angels ascending and descending, see the heavens opened, etc. Or is it just my vain imagination? That's why I come to the ekklesia, to present my visions. If others don't get it, then I can let it go. No big deal. But at least I have been freed from the blinders of Lee & Nee.

I agree there is a kind of supernatural seeing that the bible talks about which is not our natural sight but a spiritual one. Jesus talked about spiritual eyes and ears when he spoke about having ears to hear and eyes to see. So far we have covered experiences where the spiritual has broken out into the natural, yet I acknowledge these experiences are not necessary for every Christian to have as there is a special blessing for those who believe yet have not "seen" with natural eyes (John 20:29). However, there are some who won't believe unless they see, and Jesus is okay with that also, as he was with showing Thomas the nails in his hand.

John 4:48
So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”

2 King 6:17
Then Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes and let him see!" The LORD opened the young man's eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire.

2 Cor 4:18
"as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I agree there is a kind of supernatural seeing that the bible talks about which is not our natural sight but a spiritual one. Jesus talked about spiritual eyes and ears when he spoke about having ears to hear and eyes to see. So far we have covered experiences where the spiritual has broken out into the natural, yet I acknowledge these experiences are not necessary for every Christian to have as there is a special blessing for those who believe yet have not "seen" with natural eyes (John 20:29). However, there are some who won't believe unless they see, and Jesus is okay with that also, as he was with showing Thomas the nails in his hand.

I understand, but eventually I began to see the text. It is supernatural because it describes the one who came down from Heaven.

Lee cheated us because he told us to look away from the text. He disparaged the text as "natural" and "fallen". But it was he who fell. He was blind and he kept us in darkness.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've never seen angels before. However an elder at my church has a gifting that allows him to see angels sometimes and so does one of his daughters. They sometimes see the same angels in their house and elsewhere.

Well here's a story of angels my mother told me.

My grandma was a single mother who raised 8 kids in Taiwan (3 of them were hers, 5 others were adopted after my Grandma' sister in law committed suicide). After she became a Christian, she lived by faith and had many miraculous experiences of prayers answered. In many instances stuff like this would happen: the family would have no food or money and my Grandma would simply pray and an hour later someone would show up at the door with groceries. Despite being poor, they never had a lack because of my Grandmother's faith.

During some time there was a buddhist/taoist temple (Taiwanese religion is syncretic of many eastern religions) that was constructed next to the house. My grandmother was afraid there would be a demonic influence near my house as incense and smoke arose from the temple everyday. So she prayed that God would protect the family and the house.

One day my mom was with her little sister in the bedroom lying on the bed. As my aunt looked out the window, she saw a chorus of angels singing next to the house! They took that to mean that God had answered their mom's prayer. They also understood it as a sign that God cared for and loved them.

Sounds crazy but my Grandma and my parents aren't Charismatic at all. Having later passed through many decades in the LC they shy away from anything supernatural. According to my Grandma, these kind of things happened regularly in the LCs before Witness Lee's influence grew in Taiwan. Yet they can't deny what they experienced and saw.

not crazy to me bear bear !
I have had several encounters with angels. I have seen 2 of them in my life and they were together moving the impact of the car that hit me on my side head on. Nothing happened to me. When the car stopped spinning around, I looked up and saw two huge angels almost translucent by the front tire of the drivers side. This event took place when I was in the LC !!!!!!!!

I have also heard angels sing in my bedroom. (But I have also experienced demons walking and standing over me. I have not seen them, just felt their presence. SPEAKING the BLOOD OF JESUS OVER ME made them leave instantly. All Praise and Glory to our LORD JESUS!)

AND........ DRUM ROLL........
I was privileged and honored to have seen Jesus and have Him speak audibly to me. At the time, I did not know it was Him. But later, as I sought Him and fellowshipped with others about the incident, it was confirmed it WAS HIM. He did not appear to me in His Glory. In fact, He was not attractive at all. But His Word to me was super POWERFUL, and initially I was embarrassed.

I was at a store pushing a grocery cart but looking sideways at the produce. I then felt a slight push on my cart and a voice that said 'watch it!' I looked up as the man was walking past me and I said, 'I'm sorry I did not see you.' Then with a BOISTEROUS VOICE as if He had a microphone, really a MICROPHONE, He said to me 'DON'T BE SORRY ! YOU'RE FABULOUS!!!!!!!!' I turned around to see HIM and He was walking backwards facing me with a big smile.

I smiled back. But was embarrassed thinking the whole store heard HIM. Yet people around me did not hear HIM. His appearance was neat. He wore jeans and I think He was wearing a plad buttoned down shirt tucked into His jeans. His Hair was brown almost shoulder length, with a beard/mustache. Slim and not very tall... maybe 5'8. And not attractive at all.

....JUST like He is described in the Bible. But That THUNDEROUS VOICE and that Smile was HIS.

OH.... how I LOVE JESUS !!!!!!!!!!! COME LORD JESUS. THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY COME !

LOVE YA'LL,
Carol

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

not crazy to me bear bear !
I have also heard angels sing in my bedroom. (But I have also experienced demons walking and standing over me. I have not seen them, just felt their presence. SPEAKING the BLOOD OF JESUS OVER ME made them leave instantly. All Praise and Glory to our LORD JESUS!)

Awesome testimony Carol!

Regarding hearing angel's sing, that remind's me of Jason Upton's testimony of what happened during his recording of "Fly":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo6Nu5W256M

Here's the full song (the voice that comes in after a few minutes is of unknown origin as there was only one singer):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHRWo-TrjXQ

2 Chronicles 5:12-14

All the Levites who were musicians—Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives—stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.The trumpeters and musicians joined in unison to give praise and thanks to the Lord. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, the singers raised their voices in praise to the Lord and sang:

“He is good;
his love endures forever.”

Then the temple of the Lord was filled with the cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the temple of God.

[Justin]

Maybe we need to pray for a Wind of Renewal of the H. Spirit to come upon the Local Churches again for the LORD's Glory

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Justin

Maybe we need to pray for a Wind of Renewal of the H. Spirit to come upon the Local Churches again for the LORD's Glory

Maybe the Local Churches need to make some serious changes for that to happen. Perhaps they are unwilling or unable to do that. Maybe the Lord has moved on. Have you considered that?

[Justin]

Originally Posted by zeek

Maybe the Local Churches need to make some serious changes for that to happen. Perhaps they are unwilling or unable to do that. Maybe the Lord has moved on. Have you considered that?

Then its Time 4 a newer Generation L Churchers to be rasied up

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Justin

Maybe we need to pray for a Wind of Renewal of the H. Spirit to come upon the Local Churches again for the LORD's Glory

Why do you believe they need this "Wind of Renewal"? Are they having problems?

[Justin]

They need the Holy Spirits Move on them for more passion for Him & the Lost

[Justin]

I myself have had a Supernatural encounter with the Lord before becoming a member of the Local Church , im not going to say what Locality cause of certain reasons.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Justin

I myself have had a Supernatural encounter with the Lord before becoming a member of the Local Church , im not going to say what Locality cause of certain reasons.

Are you doing okay now?

[Justin]

Yes im still very close to the church that i recieved Christ in & the empowerment of the Holy Spirit

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Justin

Yes im still very close to the church that i recieved Christ in & the empowerment of the Holy Spirit

Thanks for responding. Sounds very positive. We all need a local Christian community made up of people who provide love, support and values that we not only understand, relate to, care about but also with whom we are actively involved.

[Lisbon]

One thing I learned in the LC that I still believe, the Lord doesn't pour new wine in old wine skins. Any one who does not see that the LC is just old wine skins hasn't been around very long.

Besides history of 2000 years also says the same thing. I never heard of a Christian sect that repented. We are always right in our own eyes and that's that. I doubt the LC would admit they are a sect. A lot of darkness there. Some think they still get help but I'm sorry I think they are deceived. I was personally so discouraged over a period of over ten years that none of the BBs would not have the sense that the group badly needed repentance. Remember, "all those in Asia have deserted me" and to the churches in Rev. "except you repent". They were only 20 to 40 years old at the most with real apostles at the helm. What we've had at the helm I won't say and we are over 60 years. The place is old.

Lisbon

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

One thing I learned in the LC that I still believe, the Lord doesn't pour new wine in old wine skins. Any one who does not see that the LC is just old wine skins hasn't been around very long.

And some of the new wine skins out there are unsettling to say the least. One of the posters here recommended Che Ahn for the "power of the Holy Spirit", and I started reading about him and the whole "New Apostolic Reformation" movement. The KC apostles (IHOP), the Toronto Airport people, the Lakeland/Pensacola "outpouring". A lot of really, really unbalanced stuff.

But it's new!

[Justin]

Originally Posted by aron

And some of the new wine skins out there are unsettling to say the least. One of the posters here recommended Che Ahn for the "power of the Holy Spirit", and I started reading about him and the whole "New Apostolic Reformation" movement. The KC apostles (IHOP), the Toronto Airport people, the Lakeland/Pensacola "outpouring". A lot of really, really unbalanced stuff.

But it's new!

Ive benn only around the Local Church 4 two an half years, & havnt
changed my mind on the Supernatural worldview on the Kingdom of
GOD,

[Justin]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However early on in the LC's history (before Witness Lee gained as much influence as he did perhaps) it seems like tongues, deliverance and healings were practiced here and there. My Grandma has many wild stories from her early start in the LCs of Taiwan in the 50s and 60s of healings and deliverances during her evangelism trips.

My mother was also healed of a leg injury when she was about 7 or 8 by a brother in Taiwan with the gift of healing (who's healing ministry Witness Lee later put a stop to).

I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

Just last weekend I attended a men's retreat in my church. On Sunday morning, I had pretty bad nasal congestion and had trouble speaking and breathing which was unfortunate because I was assigned to lead devotion in the morning. After a quick prayer in my head to the Lord about this matter, one brother gets up and announces that he felt led to pray for healing for anyone with nasal congestion. I raised my hand and after the group prayed for me, my sinuses cleared immediately. I've never had my nasal congestion symptoms disappear so quickly and I was more than ready to serve in our morning devotion that would follow.

I was happy and thankful, but not that surprised as I've experienced and seen these type of miracles occur over and over again in my church group and during our evangelism trips where we pray for healing to demonstrate the power of God to help others believe in God's love for them through Jesus.

That's one of the more tamer stories and I have a lot more I can share later, but that's the most recent one. I just wanted to open up this thread to anyone who had other direct experiences with the Holy Spirit and has adopted a supernatural worldview after leaving the LCs.

Acts 4:29-30
And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Me & a newer brother to the Church to were im at in Orange County I'll say for now , prayed for Healing for one another, after Lords day meeting ,with no hesitation from any one of the other brother's or elders,

[Justin]

Maybe thats what it takes the power of prayer of 2 brother's in Christ for Healing will start a new Renewal of the H.Spirit in the Local Churches

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Justin

Maybe thats what it takes the power of prayer of 2 brother's in Christ for Healing will start a new Renewal of the H.Spirit in the Local Churches

I wished for this, and did my darnedest to pray it into being, back in 1975-1980 and it only got worse from there. Now I see that as just wishful thinking.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However early on in the LC's history (before Witness Lee gained as much influence as he did perhaps) it seems like tongues, deliverance and healings were practiced here and there. My Grandma has many wild stories from her early start in the LCs of Taiwan in the 50s and 60s of healings and deliverances during her evangelism trips.

My mother was also healed of a leg injury when she was about 7 or 8 by a brother in Taiwan with the gift of healing (who's healing ministry Witness Lee later put a stop to).

I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

Just last weekend I attended a men's retreat in my church. On Sunday morning, I had pretty bad nasal congestion and had trouble speaking and breathing which was unfortunate because I was assigned to lead devotion in the morning. After a quick prayer in my head to the Lord about this matter, one brother gets up and announces that he felt led to pray for healing for anyone with nasal congestion. I raised my hand and after the group prayed for me, my sinuses cleared immediately. I've never had my nasal congestion symptoms disappear so quickly and I was more than ready to serve in our morning devotion that would follow.

I attended an AOG Biblical College in Minneapolis and later in California for nearly 3 years. I spoke in tongues. I preached in churches etc. I saw Oral Roberts on the TV doing miracles. In all my time with the Pentecostals I never knew anyone who truly had a miracle that couldn’t be reasonably explained by medical science although there was always one or two things which couldn't be explained but some diseases respond anyway because of the natural process of the life within the body. I went to so many prayer meetings during those days praying for people. I think it was for that reason that I was more open to WL and WN and their discouragement of the gifts. The gifts just didn’t seem to be functioning like they did in the book of Acts:
· Ananias healed Saul’s blindness Acts 9:17-18
· Peter healed Aeneas Acts 9:32-35
· In Joppa, Peter raised Dorcus from the dead Acts 9:39-42
· Cornelius saw an angel. He and his family spoke in tongues, but he was saved by responding to the preaching of the gospel by Peter - Acts 10:4,46; cf. v. 48; 11:14
· Peter saw the vision on the roof and spoke with the Lord Acts10:9-22
· A prison gate was miraculously opened Acts 12:10
· Paul blinded Elymus Acts 13:11-12
· Paul performed miracles in Iconium Acts 14:3,4
· At Lystra, Paul healed a crippled man Acts 14:8-18
· Paul healed a woman possessed by an evil spirit Acts 16:18
· The miraculous earthquake unloosed all the chains and doors in the Philippian prison Acts 16:26
· In Ephesus, twelve men spoke in tongues, and prophesied Acts 19:6
· Paul performed other miracles in Ephesus Acts 19:11,12
· In Troas, Paul raised Eutychus from the dead Acts 20:8-12
· Paul was not affected by the viper at Melita Acts 28:3-6
· Paul healed those on the island who were diseased Acts28:8-9

If people can be healed such as from ebola why aren't the miracle workers down in those countries in Africa healing people. God would get the glory and it would hit national news. People would believe and the world would be saved. Back in the day of Acts there was no media and this info didn't get out beyond the locality until centuries later and probably not generally until the 16th century with the advent of the printing press. Where are these people who have this kind of faith? I am sure you realize that people can sometimes be gullible but I am speaking about undeniable miracles as reported in the book of Acts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

God would get the glory and it would hit national news.

I think these two are mutually exclusive.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think these two are mutually exclusive.

You may well be right but you get the point?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

You may well be right but you get the point?

I think the way God works we will never have "proof" that his miracles were legit. All the miracles in the book of Acts that you cited were explained away by the skeptics of the day. I agree with you that TV miracle workers are the real con-artists, but that does not mean that we do not see stories of the supernatural everyday among God's children.

Couple years ago I read a short book about numerous genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people. For example, in one story, one guy snuck into his neighbor's pool for a late night swim. As he was ready to dive off the diving board, an angel suddenly appeared to stop him. Turns out that the owner had just drained the pool. Stories like this are commonplace, but who could "prove" them?

Like they say, beauty, or should I say the "supernatural," is in the eyes of the beholder.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think the way God works we will never have "proof" that his miracles were legit. All the miracles in the book of Acts that you cited were explained away by the skeptics of the day. I agree with you that TV miracle workers are the real con-artists, but that does not mean that we do not see stories of the supernatural everyday among God's children.

Couple years ago I read a short book about numerous genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people. For example, in one story, one guy snuck into his neighbor's pool for a late night swim. As he was ready to dive off the diving board, an angel suddenly appeared to stop him. Turns out that the owner had just drained the pool. Stories like this are commonplace, but who could "prove" them?

Like they say, beauty, or should I say the "supernatural," is in the eyes of the beholder.

Okay, I get what you are saying but "genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people" and you are going to take that at face value? I'm not trying to be a doubting Thomas here and certainly there are miracles from prayer but also miracles from medical science (maybe they work together). Back in the day of Jesus, people could die from an abscessed tooth. My wife, as Registered Nurse, donated time to a free medical clinic where a big part of the clinic was taking care of people with problems with their teeth. Today, we have a reasonable medical system which I presume you use from time to time as issues arise. Maybe you go to the dentist as well.

I always appreciate your input but I hope you are double checking some of these stories. Take care my friend.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Couple years ago I read a short book about numerous genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people. For example, in one story, one guy snuck into his neighbor's pool for a late night swim. As he was ready to dive off the diving board, an angel suddenly appeared to stop him. Turns out that the owner had just drained the pool.

But in another case, the angel told the guy to jump, and the pool was also drained. Guess who's story got in the book? The first one. Not the second.

Originally Posted by aron

My thesis is that a marvelous supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is that we can come to the text and see Jesus, and see angels ascending and descending, see the heavens opened, etc. Or is it just my vain imagination? That's why I come to the ekklesia, to present my visions. If others don't get it, then I can let it go. No big deal.

I bring this thread forward because it's in the testing of the 'ekklesia' that our visions are proved. The church is important, not only to see Jesus, but to examine what we see. We all want to go deeper. That 'testing' and 'going deeper' is the best invitation to the unbeliever, the struggling, the lost, the shipwrecked and hopeless. Surely the world needs such testimony!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

In all my time with the Pentecostals I never knew anyone who truly had a miracle that couldn’t be reasonably explained by medical science although there was always one or two things which couldn't be explained but some diseases respond anyway because of the natural process of the life within the body. I went to so many prayer meetings during those days praying for people. I think it was for that reason that I was more open to WL and WN and their discouragement of the gifts. The gifts just didn’t seem to be functioning like they did in the book of Acts:

This brings me back to our Detroit days.

A brother Jim M had to have a back operation. Long short of it, he got staph infection in his spine, that sent his body into spasms every 3 or 4 minutes apart, day and night, causing arms and legs to violently shake in the air, while he let out bellowing screams, that sounded like they came from the pit of hell, and that reverberated across the entire floor of the hospital.

So Ron Kangas, Harry Ahlers, Tim Scroggins - the 3 elders - and I, went to visit brother Jim, while he was spasming & screaming. Long short of that was, we very loudly prayed over Jim, laid hands on him, and cast the demons out of him. I figured if anybody could do it, it would be Ron Kangas, of course.

Long short of that, the spasms broke Jim's heart down, and he had a heart attack. But they brought him back to life and saved him. After that, over time, he had four more heart attacks and died.

He told me something that stayed with me. It still comforts me to this day. After has fourth heart attack he told me: "This time they shocked me back to life four or five times, but I kept dying. And every time they shocked me back to life I yelled at them to stop. Because, I didn't want to leave the peace I felt when I was dead."

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

This brings me back to our Detroit days.

A brother Jim M had to have a back operation. Long short of it, he got staph infection in his spine, that sent his body into spasms every 3 or 4 minutes apart, day and night, causing arms and legs to violently shake in the air, while he let out bellowing screams, that sounded like they came from the pit of hell, and that reverberated across the entire floor of the hospital.

So Ron Kangas, Harry Ahlers, Tim Scroggins - the 3 elders - and I, went to visit brother Jim, while he was spasming & screaming. Long short of that was, we very loudly prayed over Jim, laid hands on him, and cast the demons out of him. I figured if anybody could do it, it would be Ron Kangas, of course.

Long short of that, the spasms broke Jim's heart down, and he had a heart attack. But they brought him back to life and saved him. After that, over time, he had four more heart attacks and died.

He told me something that stayed with me. It still comforts me to this day. After has fourth heart attack he told me: "This time they shocked me back to life four or five times, but I kept dying. And every time they shocked me back to life I yelled at them to stop. Because, I didn't want to leave the peace I felt when I was dead."

Jim M (Martin) was my uncle who I dearly loved. I brought him and many other "Martins" into the LC in Detroit. I remember those days at the hospital as if they were yesterday. He was a remarkable kind and sincere person with a family. His wife, Joyce, remarried someone in the LC. It wasn't long ago one of his daughters called me out of the blue and said she needed some money. Without hesitation I sent what she asked for. She and others of Jim M. kids have had a tough life but some are "friends" on facebook but I'll never forget those days at Holy Cross Hospital in Ft. Lauderdale (my daughter was born there BTW) where everyone was praying for Jim M. to live...my mother would have been comforted knowing his last words of peacefulness which you shared.