Pastor Wang Ming Dao's take on Watchman Nee

[bearbear]

"Around 1982, some believers asked Wang Ming Dao how to evaluate Watchman Nee and whether or not we should judge people, etc. Wang's answer at that time was: If there is a fraud who has cheated several people, should we not announce that he is a fraud? It should be proclaimed, announcing the name of this person and how he deceives people, so that others would not be deceived by him. There is a saying in Chinese: you should hide bad deeds and you should proclaim good deeds. This saying has some merit and some flaws. If a person happens to stumble into a sin, we don't need to make it public, hoping that he will repent. But if someone is always committing a sin and always harming others, we need to make public his crimes and his name. If God allows, maybe one day I will talk concerning Watchman Nee."

Translated by my wife from page 156 of "Watchman Nee in the Eyes of Wang Mingdao"
https://repository.globethics.net/.....hing_Feng_15.1...

For more on Wang Ming Dao see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Ming-Dao

My opinion: Wang Ming Dao was a man of God who preached holiness and taught there were false and true believers only allowing baptism when there was evidence of true conversion beyond professing Jesus as Lord. This is the opposite of Watchman Nee's ministry which stressed the inner life and was silent about repentance from sin and considered carnal believers to be true believers who only had to face 1000 years of outer darkness.

If Lily Hsu's testimony is accurate which seems to be confirmed by Wang Ming Dao, consider the saying:

Luke 7:35 "Yet wisdom is justified by all her children"

[bearbear]

There are portions of the paper that go into detail concerning Wang Ming Dao's diary. If anyone can find the relevant sections using Google Translate, I can ask my wife to translate more. Or if you are a native Chinese speaker, feel free to add your translations here of relevant sections from Wang Ming Dao's diary concerning Watchman Nee.

To see the paper "Watchman Nee in the Eyes of Wang Mingdao"

Go to this link: https://repository.globethics.net/ha...0.12424/170347

[JJ]

This would be an important thing to have translated for English speakers.

Just one account of unrighteousness (by Lily Hsu) isn’t enough to draw a conclusion about Watchman Nee’s conduct.

Thanks for offering to help non-Chinese speakers.

JJ

[bearbear]

Here's a Google Translated version of the paper "Watchman Nee in the Eyes of Wang Mingdao":

https://www.verserain.com/pdf/wang_m...translated.pdf

These two quotes in the introduction stand out:

"If God allows, I hope to write an article "The Watchman Nee I Know", which will be a blow to many believers.." -- Wang Mingdao

"Because I am too old now and have not enough energy, otherwise I will definitely write a book called "The Watchman Nee I Know" -- Wang Mingdao

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Here's a Google Translated version of the paper "Watchman Nee in the Eyes of Wang Mingdao":

https://www.verserain.com/pdf/wang_m...translated.pdf

These two quotes in the introduction stand out:

Thanks bearbear for providing this download. Several portions stood out to me in addition to those obvious tells you pointed out in the introduction. In my opinion these fragmented but insightful observations on the part of Wang Mindao suggest that Watchman Nee may have worn a psychological "suit of armor" in order to prevent others from actually knowing him as a real person - preferring to be seen as some great Bible Teacher. And based upon reports others have made concerning puzzling interactions with Witness Lee in his home, it's possible that a similar "game" was being played by Lee as well. Because of Wang's praise of another Christian Worker's transparency (Ying Fuk-tsang) it's probably not fair to say Nee's personal opaqueness was merely an Asian characteristic. But maybe I'm wrong about that.

Here are the segments which got my attention:
Page 142: https://blendedbody.com/WangMingdao/142hl1.png
Page 143: https://blendedbody.com/WangMingdao/143hl1.png
Page 158: https://blendedbody.com/WangMingdao/158hl1.png

I look forward to more of this writing coming out in English!

P.S.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Here are the segments which got my attention:
Page 142: https://blendedbody.com/WangMingdao/142hl1.png
Page 143: https://blendedbody.com/WangMingdao/143hl1.png
Page 158: https://blendedbody.com/WangMingdao/158hl1.png

I look forward to more of this writing coming out in English!

P.S.

Thanks PriestlyScribe! I'll have my wife take a look and provide a better translation once she is available.
Also I just realized that whenever the machine translated paper mentioned "king" it is really referring to "Wang" since "wang" means "king" in Chinese.

[UntoHim]

As a related aside, here are a couple of excerpts from an entry about Watchman Nee in the Biographical Dictionary of Chinese Christianity (BDCC) Of special note, Nee's expulsion in the 1940s was apparently not the first time he was excommunicated for sexual immorality, it seems that a relative of his new wife publicly exposed his womanizing and galivanting back in 1934. Malicious rumor? Could be, but why did Nee "step down as leader of the movement"?
https://bdcconline.net/en/stories/nee-watchman

When he married “Charity” in 1934, an aunt of Charity’s who opposed the match published an “expose” in the media about his alleged romantic involvement with other women, which damaged his reputation, so he stepped down as leader of the movement, handing it over to elders whom he had previously appointed. He resumed his position the next year.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Then later in 1943:
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ni was expelled from leadership for several reasons: His increasing, and finally full-time, work with his brother’s pharmaceutical company; multiple instances of shady business practices; and the exposure of ongoing sexual immorality with female co-workers and other women, including prostitutes.
-

[bearbear]

PriestlyScribe, here are the improved translations of the portions you highlighted from my wife:

Page 142 (2nd Paragraph)

However, in the 1980s, Wang Mingdao recalled this meeting in a conversation.
He said: "I especially went out of my way to travel to Fuzhou by ship and stayed at his [Watchman Nee’s] place for four days. During the first one or two days, he was very hospitable, but then he turned very cold all of a sudden. I don’t understand what made him change. I loved him wholeheartedly and wanted to have fellowship with him, but he was very cold to me. I was very disappointed, and went back home."

Page 143 (Bottom)

Footnote 47 "Wang Mingdao's Unpublished Posthumous Manuscript". In this manuscript, during an encounter, Wang Mingdao said to Watchman Nee: "If you continue down this road, I am afraid that one day you will hate yourself and [blank] yourself."

(The [blank] is a missing Chinese character. If we had to guess the sentence may have ended as "hurt yourself")

Page 158

[Concerning Mr. Song]

Among God’s workers, some have shortcomings that are many times worse compared to him [Mr. Song], but nobody knows about them because they know how to hide their shortcomings. But if he had any weaknesses he would not try to hide them. Many people criticize him for this, but I love this about him. I don't love his shortcomings, what I love is his sincerity. Of course those shortcomings are bad and should be corrected...

One of Mr. Song’s greatest strengths is his courage. He has the courage of the Old Testament prophets. He is a warrior who isn't afraid to confront sin. He fearlessly condemns sin in society as well as sin in the church. He has no regard for what others think of him when they oppose him..

[FaithHopeLove]

Originally Posted by bearbear

"Around 1982, some believers asked Wang Ming Dao how to evaluate Watchman Nee and whether or not we should judge people, etc. Wang's answer at that time was: If there is a fraud who has cheated several people, should we not announce that he is a fraud? It should be proclaimed, announcing the name of this person and how he deceives people, so that others would not be deceived by him. There is a saying in Chinese: you should hide bad deeds and you should proclaim good deeds. This saying has some merit and some flaws. If a person happens to stumble into a sin, we don't need to make it public, hoping that he will repent. But if someone is always committing a sin and always harming others, we need to make public his crimes and his name. If God allows, maybe one day I will talk concerning Watchman Nee."

Translated by my wife from page 156 of "Watchman Nee in the Eyes of Wang Mingdao"
https://repository.globethics.net/.....hing_Feng_15.1...

For more on Wang Ming Dao see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Ming-Dao

My opinion: Wang Ming Dao was a man of God who preached holiness and taught there were false and true believers only allowing baptism when there was evidence of true conversion beyond professing Jesus as Lord. This is the opposite of Watchman Nee's ministry which stressed the inner life and was silent about repentance from sin and considered carnal believers to be true believers who only had to face 1000 years of outer darkness.

If Lily Hsu's testimony is accurate which seems to be confirmed by Wang Ming Dao, consider the saying:

Luke 7:35 "Yet wisdom is justified by all her children"

Hello there,

Can someone tell me in a nutshell what this whole thing is about? I think this pastor Wang's name rings a bell in my mind. Some years ago, I met a sister online who told me she's taking care of or knows someone who knows Watchman Nee. I've lost contact with her but she said pastor Wang is very old already and cannot speak much. She told me this as I asked her whether it is possible to speak with pastor Wang. So, I asked her to help me ask pastor Wang a question. I asked him what he thought of the LR and if I remembered correctly, the message I got back was to foster my relationship with God and not depend on a church movement for my faith. Something like that.

God bless.

I'm not sure if the name is pastor Wang. He could be someone who used to work with Watchman Nee or Witness Lee, I honestly can't remember. Anyway, it can't be pastor Wang as I contacted this sister not more than 10 years ago so, which would be 2013 and pastor Wang died in 1991 so it must have been another pastor. The main thing is I remember his reply.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by FaithHopeLove

Hello there,

Can someone tell me in a nutshell what this whole thing is about? I think this pastor Wang's name rings a bell in my mind.

Wang Ming Dao is considered one of the Fathers of the house church movement in China and is a contemporary of Watchman Nee. Here's a biography of him on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esl16z1H6CQ

I talked to a church elder from my mom's Chinese church who was a relative of Nee and he described that Wang Ming Dao and Watchman Nee had different approaches to ministry. Wang would not baptize people right away but made sure that church leaders would observe evidence of one being truly born again before proceeding with baptism. Wang disagreed with Nee on the 1000 year outer darkness concept and believed in a dichotomy of true vs false christians akin to the parable of the wheat and tares.

Nee on the other hand tried to get as many people to confess the faith and be baptized as possible. This is consistent with Nee's theology where only a simple prayer and confession of faith is necessary for salvation.

According to the diary it appears that Wang Ming Dao was familiar with a lot of Nee's hidden sins and likely had doubts about the authenticity of his faith and if he was repentant.

The church elder I met with, despite being a relative of Nee, believed that he taught some false doctrine but attributed it to there not be any seminaries available in China at the time. He thought Pastor Wang's theology and ministry approach was more biblical and his own children didn't get baptized until they were adults and made a firm commitment to follow Jesus.

[TheStarswillFall]

Matt 5

11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.
12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Jesus prophesied that false charges will be laid at the feet of His prophets.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Matt 5
Jesus prophesied that false charges will be laid at the feet of His prophets.

That may be true but sometimes the charges also turn out to be true. I guess we won’t know for sure until we get to other side of the veil. I also used to look up to Ravi Zacharias and I believe God used him greatly to bring many to salvation. People refused to believe in the accusations against him at first because they seemed so out of character. Ravi went to the grave without admitting to his guilt in public. Yet according to Lily Hsu’s account, Nee actually confessed to his crimes in secular court so even if the reports are true, Nee showed signs of being repentant at least more than Ravi.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...ting-rape.html

Interestingly there are actually similarities between Ravi and Nee in Wang’s diaries. Ravi was a very private person and those closest to him didn’t really know him or know what he was up to. According to Wang’s diary, Nee got annoyed at Wang when he tried to get close to him and Nee appears to have valued his privacy. Imagine the Apostle Paul valuing his privacy. He didn't have an opportunity to do so while he was chained to a Roman guard while writing his letters which was likely a blessing in disguise.

I also used to look up to Mike Bickle when I went to a charismatic church and then this happened: https://julieroys.com/report-mike-bi...-abused-power/

What's interesting that in all three cases, there was hard evidence that all three men were often seen with women alone who were not their wives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham_rule

[bearbear]

Watchman Nee's alleged confession for reference is attached from Lily Hsu's memoir.

One motivation for posting this is that if it's true, Jesus said "wisdom is justified by her fruit".

If Nee committed these crimes and confessed to them, is it wise to give weight to his sketchier interpretations of scripture including his views on salvation and deputy authority?

For me it was confirmation that Wang Ming Dao's interpretation of the bible and his views on the practice of the Christian faith was more aligned with scripture as shown by the fruit in his life.

https://canonjjohn.com/2022/10/15/he...-wang-mingdao/

Mingdao was uncompromising. He demanded that Christians live consistently with their beliefs: devout, generous and free from immorality.

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I also used to look up to Ravi Zacharias and I believe God used him greatly to bring many to salvation. People refused to believe in the accusations against him at first because they seemed so out of character...

Interestingly there are actually similarities between Ravi and Nee in Wang’s diaries. Ravi was a very private person and those closest to him didn’t really know him or know what he was up to. According to Wang’s diary, Nee got annoyed at Wang when he tried to get close to him and Nee appears to have valued his privacy.

There are striking similarities. Both were withdrawn persons, with a strong aura of spirituality which in retrospect was their cloak. Both had clear warning signs during tge peak of their ministries, but we were so taken by their personal charisma and apparent brilliance that our perception was dulled.

In the case of Nee, he travelled with a female "co-worker" not his wife. Yet he was the Spiritual Man, whose behaviour was somehow beyond mere NT considerations. The conceit was of a higher law at work which we soulish could only look towards, but Nee was supposedly solidly beyond the veil.

What did Witness Lee call it? "The divine and mystical realm". When the Shanghai elders objected to Nee being with a woman not his wife, they were too low, natural, said Lee. They couldn't see the reality.

If you look in the WN collected works, published by LSM, how often a female travel companion pops up in the writing. "I was waiting at the boat for Miss Fiscbacher", his muse (she transcribed his speeches at Keswick). Even if nothing was going on, it looks bad. Unless, of course, you are the "spiritual man, discerned by no one". Then you are exempt from such trifling considerations. Then, apparently nothing looks bad.

In the case of RZ, I remember seeing a news conference, after the stories came to public eye. In this news conference, RZ was standing with the governor of Georgia, as he opened his new massage parlour, or day spa, as the more convenient term went. Brilliant. Charismatic. "I was mesmerized" said the co-owner, who put up all the money, and eventually lost it. We can't say that the warning signs were not there already, long before the downfall. We just lost our discernment.