The Holy Spirit

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

OBW says, "So what?" What difference do all these stories make, even if we make plausible cases for them? Good question. I believe that a powerful story will capture the imagination and bend the behavior. When you begin to look at the world differently you begin to respond differently. A good narrative has that drawing power - it captures your consciousness and alters your behavior. And personality is nothing but behavior, repeated.

Though I did not quote the portion, I agree that stories are often very important. They often show us something about man, the truth, etc., that we don't think about in the particular way. And I still like the LOTR stories. There is a lot to consider there.

But when I said "so what?" (when ever it was — I have lost track of this thread several times) I was mostly suggesting that certain things are, or should be, of less importance to us than others.

When I read the Bible, I see facts and I see intent, commands, etc. To a great degree, the things about what we package together into this teaching of "trinity" is mostly about the facts. God is. The Father is and does. The Son is and does. The Spirit is and does. Figuring them out and systematizing it into the best doctrinal statement does not change who they actually are. And since we only know what we can read in the scripture, then putting more definitions around it, then telling some stories that are not from the Bible but are supplied to support extra-biblical theory, the only conclusion that I can reach is that we are trying to force something into the reading of scripture that is not there.

My "so what" is more like "what makes caring important?" I have agreed with some here that God as one is every bit as much a person as the three are individually. But I am less certain about that now. I could still be wrong because God is not within our sphere of time and space. At some level, we may be more like that galaxy on Orion's belt that was attached to a dog's collar (Men in Black). But when Jesus prays that we would be one as he and the Father are one, the absolute unity of person that One God = one Person implies is somewhat undermined.

But the point is not to figure out how the Father and the Son are one, but to come to live in the unity that Jesus prayed about. That we would be one displaying the truth of God. Revealing to the world that more than a good man is behind our living.

There is no "so what" in that.

But if we are looking for a story, why is it? To support a theory that is already beyond what the scripture actually tells us? To demonstrate what the scripture actually tells us?

Stories like LOTR, or Star Wars provide some insight into man's thinking about things. Truth, justice, human nature, and so on. But everything that the writers portray is not necessarily true. Just because we find a story that sort of fits does not mean that its tendency to compel us in a direction is true. Maybe partly true. But not necessarily all, if any.

I read something yesterday where they used a story that may ahve come from one of the Gnostic gospels. It was credited to another book and it may be that the particulars were a rephrased version. I think I have heard it before and recall it being from on of those gospels, thought I will not say it definitely is.

The story was of Jesus walking along with the disciples and asking them all to carry a rock. Peter, picks up a small one. Then at lunch, Jesus blesses the rocks and they turn in to bread. Peter is finished in one bite. So when Jesus asks them to pick up another, he grabs the biggest one he thinks he can carry. Later Jesus tells them all to throw them in the water. Peter is furious and confused. Jesus asks "Who were you carrying the rock for?"

Cute story. And it can reasonably be a backdrop for certain truth that we can actually find in the Bible. But once you have the story, what else can you glean from it? The apparent arbitrariness of God? A need to be searching for instructions at all times? An expectation that everything is designed and with purpose rather than just life with God working in us through it? What do we get from a compelling story? Maybe one step closer to swallowing deputy authority.

That is why I ask "so what?" What do we actually gain from being right? How does it stack up against scripture? If it is neither supported nor denied, it is "so what?" It could be true, but it wasn't important enough to make a comment on it.

And that last sentence is consistent with my general belief that the scripture is a book that is telling us things straight out. Not in code. The only reason that people don't see what it says is not because the words cannot be understood, but because their eyes have not been opened to see that the claims made are true. It is not a mystery. It is just not believed as true. They do not accept because they do not believe in the one behind the words.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

When I read the Bible, I see facts and I see intent, commands, etc. To a great degree, the things about what we package together into this teaching of "trinity" is mostly about the facts. God is. The Father is and does. The Son is and does. The Spirit is and does. Figuring them out and systematizing it into the best doctrinal statement does not change who they actually are. And since we only know what we can read in the scripture, then putting more definitions around it, then telling some stories that are not from the Bible but are supplied to support extra-biblical theory, the only conclusion that I can reach is that we are trying to force something into the reading of scripture that is not there...

The Spirit is and does... well that is what I am after here. The Holy Spirit is what and does what? Is the Spirit the Angel of the Lord, and how does this relate to the holy angels of God? Because they are also spirits. They also are, and do.

Look in Revelation 22: in verse 7 the Lord Jesus says, "Behold I come quickly", then in verse 8 and 9 it is the messenger angel speaking. Then in verse 13 it is "Behold I come quickly" (Jesus) again, and verse 14 is "I am the Alpha and Omega" again. So the speaking goes from Jesus to the messenger back to God. This happens in the scriptures again and again. First God, then an angel, with no obvious transition. Or vice versa: the person calls the angel "God". And they are all spirits. God is Spirit, and angels are spirits. There is the Holy Spirit and the holy angels of God.

How does this matter? If we understand better (assuming our hearts are pure, of course) we might cooperate better. In Luke chapter 7, the Roman Centurion saved Jesus a trip: "You just say the word". It seems like that statement saved Jesus a few hours of walking. Because later they asked what time the servant was healed and it was the same time Jesus spoke. So obviously He wasn't 100 yards away. He was at quite some distance. The Centurion's understanding of the divine dynamic apparently increased its functional efficiency dramatically. And the Centurion, it seems, wasn't talking about the Holy Spirit ("I also have servants under me").

Maybe if we understood more we might be more effective in our ministry. It's one thing to inherit your father's car. It's another thing entirely to know how to drive it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

The Spirit is and does... well that is what I am after here. The Holy Spirit is what and does what? Is the Spirit the Angel of the Lord, and how does this relate to the holy angels of God? Because they are also spirits. They also are, and do.

Look in Revelation 22: in verse 7 the Lord Jesus says, "Behold I come quickly", then in verse 8 and 9 it is the messenger angel speaking. Then in verse 13 it is "Behold I come quickly" (Jesus) again, and verse 14 is "I am the Alpha and Omega" again. So the speaking goes from Jesus to the messenger back to God. This happens in the scriptures again and again. First God, then an angel, with no obvious transition. Or vice versa: the person calls the angel "God". And they are all spirits. God is Spirit, and angels are spirits. There is the Holy Spirit and the holy angels of God.

How does this matter? If we understand better (assuming our hearts are pure, of course) we might cooperate better. In Luke chapter 7, the Roman Centurion saved Jesus a trip: "You just say the word". It seems like that statement saved Jesus a few hours of walking. Because later they asked what time the servant was healed and it was the same time Jesus spoke. So obviously He wasn't 100 yards away. He was at quite some distance. The Centurion's understanding of the divine dynamic apparently increased its functional efficiency dramatically. And the Centurion, it seems, wasn't talking about the Holy Spirit ("I also have servants under me").

Maybe if we understood more we might be more effective in our ministry. It's one thing to inherit your father's car. It's another thing entirely to know how to drive it.

So you're just trying to figure out the mechanics of God? Yer a God mechanic.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

The Spirit is and does... well that is what I am after here. The Holy Spirit is what and does what? Is the Spirit the Angel of the Lord, and how does this relate to the holy angels of God? Because they are also spirits. They also are, and do.

. . . .

In Luke chapter 7, the Roman Centurion saved Jesus a trip: "You just say the word". . . .

Why are we concerned with why and how the Spirit does what he does? Or the Son? Or the Father? Do we really think that understanding it makes it better? Seems that if we do what we have been told to do, we will "experience" what we are designed to experience of God. How God does it does not change the requirement on us. Neither does which of the Godhead (if specifically stated).

My point is not that there is nothing to be known, or at least presumed or postulated, about which does what or how it is done. But I don't think that is what it is about. It is not about how. It is about God. And it is about man. And the requirements on man are not to understand the Trinity. Neither is it to have great worship services, or to "get into our spirit."

It is to represent God on the earth. To bear his image. Bearing it back to him or representing him back to himself is pointless.

Where does the real spiritual warfare occur? At church? In our small groups? In our private time with God? I suggest it is "not really any of the above." Instead, it is everyday as we live our lives in front of the world. As we bear the image of God in a way that it could be called "salt and light." That there is something that must be explained away to arrive at the conclusion that it is just human frailty needing something bigger than himself — even if just in his own mind.

I see the people. The Christians. They are living their lives often the best they can. But when they get together for that pow-wow at church, it is more about how God benefits them than who God is. Yes we need to be in awe of the hallowed one who "art in heaven." And we need to repent daily and confess our shortcomings. And forgive others. Pray for our "daily bread" (even though Lee said that was a poor pathetic prayer). Pray for our walk in the world, that we would not fall to temptation. And for the kingdom to come.

And in that view, I see digging into the Spirit in this way to be a distraction from what we are called to.

And a story about inheriting a car but not knowing how to drive it does not make figuring this out similar.

And that is my two cents. With interest.

I will admit, as I already have, that this is a "view," or a lens. We all use a lens. And surely there is a way to read the Bible, so there is a lens for it. Is mine right? Maybe at times. And not at others. But it is what it is.

You don't need to convince me. I'll jus say to carry on.