How Much To Throw Out?

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

Let me give one example. At an international conference, a brother who had been in the recovery in the US for many years stood outside the venue with signs in Chinese obviously angry at recovery leadership. No one would talk to him. Troubled, I stopped to talk to him. He said he was trying to get information about his daughter. She had been married to a Taiwanese brother in a marriage arranged by a leading one in Taiwan. And, he hadn't heard from her in over 6 months. All of his attempts to get information had been rebuffed. This broke my heart.

I went into the conference and listened to RK talk about "having a feeling for the body". But it had no relation to compassion or empathy. That made my blood boil.

I remembered what RK's example of "having a feeling for the body" was at that conference, and want to share it to complete the story. He expressed anger that a local church had changed a "standard" meeting practice (apparently without consulting the LRC leadership). Word had reached him, and he asked "how did you think that was going to affect the other churches". "You need to have a feeling for the body".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

I remembered what RK's example of "having a feeling for the body" was at that conference, and want to share it to complete the story. He expressed anger that a local church had changed a "standard" meeting practice (apparently without consulting the LRC leadership). Word had reached him, and he asked "how did you think that was going to affect the other churches". "You need to have a feeling for the body".

This matter of, "You need to have a feeling for the body", heavily promoted by Lee and the Blendeds since the 80's, is entirely manipulative. It has nothing to do with spiritual feelings, caring for the body, shepherding the saints, serving the Lord, following the Spirit, or loving God. It is absolutely and entirely about building up authoritarian leadership at LSM and tearing down the local elderships.

This cleverly cloaked phrase totally contradicts Peter's teaching in 5.1-3.

And, btw, how in the world did employees at a publishing house ever get appointed to oversee elders around the globe?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This matter of, "You need to have a feeling for the body", heavily promoted by Lee and the Blendeds since the 80's, is entirely manipulative. It has nothing to do with spiritual feelings, caring for the body, shepherding the saints, serving the Lord, following the Spirit, or loving God. It is absolutely and entirely about building up authoritarian leadership at LSM and tearing down the local elderships.

Very well said Ohio.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

I remembered what RK's example of "having a feeling for the body" was at that conference, and want to share it to complete the story. He expressed anger that a local church had changed a "standard" meeting practice (apparently without consulting the LRC leadership). Word had reached him, and he asked "how did you think that was going to affect the other churches". "You need to have a feeling for the body".

"having a feeling for the Body" is a loaded, coded catch phrase. The end result is promoting hierarchy. Decisions other than setting meeting times requires approval from Living Stream Ministry. It's like when you're in grade school and raising your hand for permission to use the restroom.
One example I've brought on this forum several times before was a hypothetical "what if" to a Renton elder (2009/2010). Several years prior to the passing of Bill Freeman, "what if Bill Freeman wanted to visit?" The elder's response was basically needing fellowship from the blended brothers. I can't recall the exact words verbatim, but that is paraphrased what was conveyed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

"having a feeling for the Body" is a loaded, coded catch phrase.

"Philip Lee is the Office" now becomes "The Blended Brothers are the Body". The controlling, manipulative reality hides its ugly face behind bland, coded euphemisms. Like someone "needing fellowship."

Originally Posted by John So

In those afternoons the brothers’ burden was very strong to propagate and to promote the ministry office, and at that time, really, none of the leading brothers had any idea what the office was. At one point, somebody was very ignorantly and innocently asking, “Well, what is the office, anyway?” And everybody laughed. Of course, we found out that the office is really Brother Lee’s son, Philip Lee. It might be public knowledge for everybody perhaps, except for the brothers in Europe. . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

"having a feeling for the Body" is a loaded, coded catch phrase. The end result is promoting hierarchy. Decisions other than setting meeting times requires approval from Living Stream Ministry. It's like when you're in grade school and raising your hand for permission to use the restroom.

Think about how degraded the Recovery has become. There was a time when following the leading of the Spirit was sought after and extolled. This brought much liberty to all the members. "If the Son shall set you free, you shall be really free."

Now all the members, especially those in any kind of leadership position, are afraid of this. They have been so spooked by Lee and the Blendeds to fear any kind of personal obedience. Every past "storm" was used by them to reinforce these degraded notions of solidarity, because it is in no way the oneness of the Spirit.

To me this is worse than so-called hierarchy. One old friend of mine in the South East likened his LC to "living in a police state." Every move he made was monitored by others waiting to report him to headquarters for "offending the body" with his "independence." That's the liberty of the Spirit missing in degraded Christianity? No thanks.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To me this is worse than so-called hierarchy. One old friend of mine in the South East likened his LC to "living in a police state." Every move he made was monitored by others waiting to report him to headquarters for "offending the body" with his "independence." That's the liberty of the Spirit missing in degraded Christianity? No thanks.

Originally Posted by John Ingalls

Regarding some brothers, probably including me (or, especially me), Brother Lee said, Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in, what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you. He said further, Which church is under my hand? You have a church; I have none. I know which church welcomes me, and which has a cold heart toward me.

Apparently WL was no stranger to encouraging members to spy on other members. The mere fact that WL needed 10-20 page reports on who was doing what is something that was obsessive and indicative of a paranoia. I couldn't possibly imagine who would want to waste their time doing that kind of reporting either. At any rate, that kind of atmosphere is indeed a indicator of just how degraded the LC became.

[Nell]

All of this further makes my case for throwing everything out!

It's much easier to follow the Lord alone than it ever was to follow Lee, or anyone else in a leadership roll in the LSM franchise.

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

All of this further makes my case for throwing everything out!

It's much easier to follow the Lord alone than it ever was to follow Lee, or anyone else in a leadership roll in the LSM franchise.

Nell

I didn't have to consciously throw much out. Just join a church that is teaching mainstream Bible-based stuff. Read the current authors. After not hearing Lee's teachings and hearing other teachings for years I just started forgetting the LC stuff.

Age and associated memory loss are a great help here.

Now much of the LC stuff just sounds strange to me.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I didn't have to consciously throw much out. Just join a church that is teaching mainstream Bible-based stuff. Read the current authors. After not hearing Lee's teachings and hearing other teachings for years I just started forgetting the LC stuff.

Age and associated memory loss are a great help here.

Now much of the LC stuff just sounds strange to me.

I was too emotionally traumatized when I left to be that objective. I was afraid what they said was true...that I was a goner... It was at least 5 years before I could go to a church...and when I did, I cried the entire time, especially during the singing. Reading the Bible was out of the question. All I could do was just talk to the Lord, which was not, in my mind, praying. I was just talking. As hard as all that was, it was what I needed.

I finally got out of the garlic room. Now I know garlic when I smell it.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Apparently WL was no stranger to encouraging members to spy on other members. The mere fact that WL needed 10-20 page reports on who was doing what is something that was obsessive and indicative of a paranoia. . . that kind of atmosphere is indeed a indicator of just how degraded the LC became.

If you want obsession and paranoia, check out the Brasil Dong-ites. Most of their material is posted online, you just have to translate it from the Portuguese.The dark side of their pentecostal fervor seems to be subjective paranoia that's untethered to the real world. There apparently are enemies within the camp, and treachery afoot, and plots brewing behind every door, and like in North Korea, you can get executed if you don't clap loudly enough. Or if you clap too loudly. Or if you clap out of synch.

How can anyone survive in such an environment? I don't know, except that maybe you have to be really, really, dull of hearing, cf Heb 5:11; also Matt 13:15. It takes a kind of stubborn, willful ignorance, or a complete lack of perception, to maintain anything like your first love and your first joy.

So I'm with Nell. Throw out everything. The God of resurrection knows what can be picked up again.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Apparently WL was no stranger to encouraging members to spy on other members. The mere fact that WL needed 10-20 page reports on who was doing what is something that was obsessive and indicative of a paranoia. I couldn't possibly imagine who would want to waste their time doing that kind of reporting either. At any rate, that kind of atmosphere is indeed a indicator of just how degraded the LC became.

This is something that has really disturbed me about Witness Lee, i.e. he fostered rivalries among the workers, and even seemed to promote their backbiting, ingratiating himself with sycophantic underlings. To his credit, Titus Chu tried to protect the GLA from much of this, but not all of it could be blamed on Philip Lee or others.

Just the other day I was reading Paul's exhortation to Timothy concerning his oversight of the elders and workers. Compare Lee's actions with the scripture:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God, the Lord Jesus Christ, and His chosen angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality. -- I Tim. 5.21

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Compare Lee's actions with the scripture:

1 Tim 5:21 is a great verse. There is nothing but a spirit of partiality with Lee and Co. It starts with "the recovery" versus everything else. Whatever was "the recovery" was pure and untainted, and we could see no wrong in the glorious church(unless Lee was in a bad mood, but that's another story). And nothing of "poor Christianity" was any good at all. How is this not partiality?

Lee's teachings were "revelation"; everyone else's were "concepts" (even the Bible was panned where it didn't match Lee's theology). Is this not subjectivism run amok?

Lee alone was a humble bondslave of Christ; every other Christian worker was ambitious, trying to establish a kingdom, trying to draw others after themselves.

Only Lee could correct and rebuke, and offer critiques (e.g. "Affirmation and Critique"), but if anyone else tried it then this was an "attack".

And we could go on and on. Everything was done in a spirit of partiality.

Don Rutledge once testified how the senior Chinese brothers treated him, once they found out that he was "tight" with Witness Lee. Suddenly their demeanor was transformed, and they oozed deference, respect, partiality. Where coldness had reigned, warmth now beamed. Why? They were respecters of persons. In fact the whole culture is built on nothing but. It is an oriental personality cult.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

1 Tim 5:21 is a great verse. There is nothing but a spirit of partiality with Lee and Co. It starts with "the recovery" versus everything else. Whatever was "the recovery" was pure and untainted, and we could see no wrong in the glorious church(unless Lee was in a bad mood, but that's another story). And nothing of "poor Christianity" was any good at all. How is this not partiality?

Lee's teachings were "revelation"; everyone else's were "concepts" (even the Bible was panned where it didn't match Lee's theology). Is this not subjectivism run amok?

Lee alone was a humble bondslave of Christ; every other Christian worker was ambitious, trying to establish a kingdom, trying to draw others after themselves.

Only Lee could correct and rebuke, and offer critiques (e.g. "Affirmation and Critique"), but if anyone else tried it then this was an "attack".

And we could go on and on. Everything was done in a spirit of partiality.

I agree with what you're saying Aron, but I'd like to focus on 1 Timothy 5:21. It's a verse that could serve to check elders and co-workers, but due to the deputy authority doctrine that has severely weighted down the recovery movement, no verses could serve as a means to check elders and co-workers. We know the coded lingo. Attempting to check is received as "an attack". Such a one attempting to check an elder would be accused of being rebellious, attempting to create a following, negative, etc.