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Old 12-11-2016, 12:51 AM   #1
Koinonia
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Default Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints

I would encourage everyone to listen to the following audio message: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints given last week in Bellevue, WA by Bill Lawson.

This will give a very definite impression of where the LC is today. Recently, due to flagging LSM book sales, LC coworkers have appointed a group of brothers to travel around the US (and elsewhere) pushing LC members to purchase more and more ministry publications--with an explicit view to selling off large stocks of books that have been collecting dust in LSM warehouses for the last number of years.

In this presentation, Bill Lawson gives an overview of some of the recent LSM conferences and goes through manipulation after manipulation convincing the audience of their need to buy more LSM products. An accompanied PowerPoint presentation can be viewed here. The same presentation is being rolled out across the country by the other brothers chosen for this task (who are all named at the beginning of the Lawson recording).
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Old 12-11-2016, 03:55 AM   #2
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Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made,
ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Old 12-11-2016, 05:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
This will give a very definite impression of where the LC is today. Recently, due to flagging LSM book sales, LC coworkers have appointed a group of brothers to travel around the US (and elsewhere) pushing LC members to purchase more and more ministry publications--with an explicit view to selling off large stocks of books that have been collecting dust in LSM warehouses for the last number of years.
It's really sad to see how the LSM is attempting to disguise its marketing efforts. It's kind of ironic that they would claim there is a need to read more ministry publications, when that is all LC members do in the first place.
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

Constituting oneself with knowledge of an earthly ministry doesn't have a corresponding reality. Still when it comes to fellow Christians not meeting in the local churches, there's no capacity to receive non-LC Christians because they are not denominated by ministry publications.
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:23 PM   #5
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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It's kind of ironic that they would claim there is a need to read more ministry publications, when that is all LC members do in the first place.
I'm not so sure about that. In addition to the HWFMR, the publications seem to multiply. Even if you have capital to invest in the publications, who has time to read them all? They just collect dust. IMHO, money would be better spent on a genuine non-profit organization that has real community charity work.
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Old 12-11-2016, 09:59 PM   #6
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I'm not so sure about that. In addition to the HWFMR, the publications seem to multiply. Even if you have capital to invest in the publications, who has time to read them all? They just collect dust. IMHO, money would be better spent on a genuine non-profit organization that has real community charity work.
LSM is adept at repackaging the same things over and over again in various formats. But really the whole enterprise is running out of steam. A flyer has recently been circulated among LC members that is titled "Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee" (scheduled: 2018). Here is a corresponding website. It is difficult for me to understand how people can get excited about this...

The LSM online bookstore is currently featuring a softbound copy of the Recovery Version of the Ezekiel (the upcoming Winter Training will begin the Crystallization-study of Ezekiel). Of course, the Recovery Version of Ezekiel has already been published in other formats for years. But diehards will buy multiple copies of the single volume, I'm sure. In recent years, LSM has also experimented with gimmicky things like pocket versions of various Life-studies ("Dwarsligger" format), in an apparent attempt at providing tired (and younger) members with new materials.

The dilemma for LSM is that they have no good ways to grow (or even maintain) book sales figures. They are mostly limited to a captive audience of current LC members. Once they really do put out the Collected Works of Witness Lee, they will have no new material--other than new editions of periodical publications like Holy Word for Morning Revival and Ministry Magazine. So, they will be stuck pushing members to buy copies of the same books to give away to other people, as well as coming up with newly packaged formats of the same existing publications. You can already see this happening.
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Old 12-12-2016, 02:09 AM   #7
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They are not that well written either. For example, the publications are not well written, nor are they written well. Repeat the same things they tend to do. So as to repeat the things they tend to do the same. However, in my experience, many Christians cannot read well, so repeating things the same is not a problem, however we should practice more.
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Old 12-12-2016, 04:27 PM   #8
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It seems to me that the LSM made two major mistakes with regards to its publication business. Firstly, they limited their publications to Nee and Lee. By doing so, they have limited the scope of what can be published and since WL has been gone 20 years, there is nothing new to put out. Their product is limited by the aggregate of 2 past ministries, and all they can do now is find new ways to sell an old product. They have have assumed that there will be a perpetual demand for such publications, when it is likely that demand peaked long ago.

The other mistake is that the market for LSM publications has already been saturated with existing LSM publications. Take any longtime member and they have likely purchased a good number of LSM publications and a Life-Study set. Thus, it is unlikely that they want to repurchase the newer publications, even if it is the latest CWWL or whatever.

It was also my observation that the younger/newer members did not see the necessity to purchase LSM publications except on an as-needed basis. So the all the publications that LSM might have expected to sell in more recent times have likely gone largely unsold. I think the practice of buying every single book that came out was largely a thing of the past.
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Old 12-12-2016, 05:19 PM   #9
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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It was also my observation that the younger/newer members did not see the necessity to purchase LSM publications except on an as-needed basis. So the all the publications that LSM might have expected to sell in more recent times have likely gone largely unsold. I think the practice of buying every single book that came out was largely a thing of the past.
This is very true. A lot of younger members now mostly use ministrybooks.org or certain officially released "epublications." However, many also use unofficially released (free) "epublications," which has become a major issue with LC coworkers. I have personally heard certain of them severely excoriate groups of FTTA trainees for using these.
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Old 12-12-2016, 05:50 PM   #10
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I tried to listen to Bill Lawson, I really did, but became exhausted after 15 minutes. So sad, so stale, been thru this for years. "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."

Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"

Apparently it didn't work. So, buy some more books! Look, we're running a special. Collected Works. Order now and save 45%.

Their market is definitely drying up. Go to a campus meeting -- no one even carries a Bible any more. Got a smart phone or a tablet? That's all you need.

I'm starting to think that LSM quarantined the GLA and Brazil simply because their regional sales projections were falling off. Regardless of what you may have been told, the LC's exist only to support LSM -- attend their trainings, send your kids to FTTA, and buy their books.

My long-time observation is that the anointing on those messages is drying up. I read messages 40 years ago, and they were indeed anointed with holy oil. Not so today. Those same messages are dry and tasteless. It's not a joke.
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Old 12-12-2016, 07:23 PM   #11
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Messages are not anointed. People are. If we use our spirit to pray and contact the Lord any boring message becomes full of life.
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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Messages are not anointed. People are. If we use our spirit to pray and contact the Lord any boring message becomes full of life.
Don't people give messages?

And if any boring message can become full of life, then all of us would have remained in the dreaded denominations.

You are definitely conflicted in your assessments.
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Old 12-13-2016, 02:38 AM   #13
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

"HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."
Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"


Not kidding!!!! Buy buy buy, listen ... multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages for yuor consumption. Another 20 years of HWFMR + HWFAR ... it'll be like licking bar-b-sauce + chicken skin. Then need mooooore boooooks, tens of thousands of pages + hundreds of thousands of pages and another 20years later of HWFMR+HWFAR+HWFNR .... THEN will be like licking bar-b-que sauce + chicken skin + a slice of chicken meat ...
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:05 AM   #14
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I listened to the whole thing. My take was that it was nervously given with a worry that not enough books are getting on the members' bookshelves. Not once did I hear the word "Bible". I heard the word "ministry" countless times and the word "word" several times. The speaker equates the ministry or publications of LSM with the word, and the only two names associated with their ministry are Nee and Lee, although the speaker did mention Paul once. They say they are rich, but really they are deceived in that their reading only the publications of LSM keeps them in darkness, poverty and separated from the body of Christ.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:29 AM   #15
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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Look, we're running a special. Collected Works. Order now and save 45%.
If you really want to save some money wait for a year. When the Local Church book rooms clean out their closets with yard sales you can probably get this for 95% off.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:33 AM   #16
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If you really want to save some money wait for a year. When the Local Church book rooms clean out their closets with yard sales you can probably get this for 95% off.
Hang out with a few older malcontents ... You might even get free delivery!
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Old 12-13-2016, 11:28 AM   #17
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I tried to listen to Bill Lawson, I really did, but became exhausted after 15 minutes. So sad, so stale, been thru this for years. "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."

Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"
The LC is full of gimmicky promotions, but this one tops most others. What strikes me is how evident the current state of the LC is, yet members believe they are in the best place on earth. If the LC continues down its current path, it won't be long before LC members really begin to pick up on it. When a group bases itself upon enthusiasm for a certain ministry, and that enthusiasm is simmering down, it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens. Perhaps the inevitable has already began to occur. Certainly, the enthusiasm for what Lee taught peaked long ago.

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time. I was around brothers who were always encouraging us to read the ministry, read the Life-Studies, yet despite that push, we never really were much enthusiastic to read more than what we had to. There was simply not much interest in reading LSM publications beyond what HWFMR the church was going over.

The LC has been in the U.S. for over 50 years. That has been plenty of time for any benefits of reading ministry books to have become apparent. But when members do what they're encouraged to do, and nothing comes of it, discouragement sets in. The next time they're encouraged to do the same thing, they know better, so they passively resist doing it. That is basically the root of the problem that the LC is facing. They cannot come up with any new idea to make things work better. They just keep rehashing the same ideas that have failed time and time again.
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Old 12-13-2016, 01:48 PM   #18
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The LC is full of gimmicky promotions, but this one tops most others. What strikes me is how evident the current state of the LC is, yet members believe they are in the best place on earth. If the LC continues down its current path, it won't be long before LC members really begin to pick up on it. When a group bases itself upon enthusiasm for a certain ministry, and that enthusiasm is simmering down, it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens. Perhaps the inevitable has already began to occur. Certainly, the enthusiasm for what Lee taught peaked long ago.

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time. I was around brothers who were always encouraging us to read the ministry, read the Life-Studies, yet despite that push, we never really were much enthusiastic to read more than what we had to. There was simply not much interest in reading LSM publications beyond what HWFMR the church was going over.

The LC has been in the U.S. for over 50 years. That has been plenty of time for any benefits of reading ministry books to have become apparent. But when members do what they're encouraged to do, and nothing comes of it, discouragement sets in. The next time they're encouraged to do the same thing, they know better, so they passively resist doing it. That is basically the root of the problem that the LC is facing. They cannot come up with any new idea to make things work better. They just keep rehashing the same ideas that have failed time and time again.
This is very insightful. When you look at various LC initiatives (and they are always coming), they are usually about trying to drum up interest in Witness Lee's books. Radio program, seminars, giving away books, selling books, translating books, etc., etc., etc. When interest wanes, there is not a lot left.
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Old 12-13-2016, 02:25 PM   #19
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I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time.
Early books by Lee closely covered the scriptures, either sequentially or topically. As I entered the scene in 1976, we would receive a few messages a week on "standing order." At the time, the church in Cleveland was going thru Genesis. I found the messages very "edible," and easily carried in my pocket, so I could read them at work. Then they did away with "loose" messages, which made them less accessible.

Initially the messages met a real need in the saints. It was apparent that the ministry of WL attempted to "serve us." Then, those on standing order began to receive books at an overwhelming rate. Only the fastest readers could keep up. I went back to college and had little time for superfluous reading. Unread materials started gathering dust on my shelves. Then the same materials were re-released as "rainbow" booklets, then in soft-bound books, and eventually hard-bound in green volumes. Soon most of us only stayed with the standing order as a donation, and by the '90's most of us dropped out of the standing order.

LSM over time moved from Life-Studies to New Way Instructions to Crystallization Studies to "High Peak" to Blendeds Re-speaking, with each progression distancing the written page from the Word of God. Some where along that windy path I lost my appetite for all things LSM. In '07 my basement flooded wiping out boxes of un-shelved books, then a few years ago I gave away all the blue and green bound volumes. I never missed them.

Some of the brothers who were with WL from the early days have written how they had definitely noticed the anointing on his ministry wane over time. The decline definitely corresponded with unrepentant unrighteousness in the ministry. So it's no wonder that the long-time survivors would speak of those old glory days at Elden Hall. For most of us, the truth behind the "storms" of rebellion was kept secret, so we became laden with guilt that our lack of appetite for ministry books was our own fault. Actually it had nothing to do with us. The books now are mostly tasteless doctrines.
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Old 12-13-2016, 03:46 PM   #20
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Another thing I perceived during Bill Lawson's pitch were tepid "amens". They were polite but noone seemed FTT enthusiastic. What Freedom posted about enthusiasm waning seems spot on.
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Old 12-13-2016, 05:44 PM   #21
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Another thing I perceived during Bill Lawson's pitch were tepid "amens". They were polite but noone seemed FTT enthusiastic. What Freedom posted about enthusiasm waning seems spot on.
You mean he was not using his spirit.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:07 PM   #22
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You mean he was not using his spirit.
It could have something to do with his subject matter, too.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:36 PM   #23
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"Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee"

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In August 2018 The Collected Works of Witness Lee will be completed and made available in its entirety. This represents a monumental step in church history because it is a faithful preservation of the ministry that has been given by the Lord to His church for the growth and building up of the Body of Christ. Concerning this ministry, Brother Lee testifies, “It is a fact of history in the Lord’s recovery that any church which follows the ministry is strong and blessed. But those churches which neglect the ministry and try instead to do something on their own have become a failure...My burden is to produce groceries. The churches and the saints are free either to use them or to disregard them. But if the saints cast away the nourishment found in these messages, I wonder what they will feed on. We are what we eat. If we eat the ‘groceries’ produced in today’s religion, we shall be part of religion. Let me say in frankness and honesty that the leading ones need to take ‘these things’ and lay them before the saints that they may be nourished”
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Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry with which the Lord has blessed His recovery through the speaking of the Spirit. We encourage the churches around the world to make this heritage available to the saints. The Collected Works of Witness Lee with the comprehensive index will be an invaluable resource for use in personal study, in home meetings, and in the shepherding and care of the saints. In addition, this complete set will provide a lasting legacy of the truth for our children and generations to come. Surely, this ministry is not for us alone, for in receiving it, we have been entrusted with a stewardship. “If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you, that by revelation the mystery was made known to me...by which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:2-4). “The stewardship of the grace is for the dispensing of the grace of God to His chosen people for the producing and building up of the church. Out of this stewardship comes the ministry” (v. 2, footnote 2). “If you lay these things before the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, being nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which you have closely followed” (1 Tim. 4:6). “To minister Christ to others requires that first we ourselves be nourished with the words of life concerning Christ”
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Old 12-13-2016, 08:15 PM   #24
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"monumental step in church history"? Which church and by whose accounting? Can you imagine Paul saying his book of Romans was a monumental step in church history? Or maybe John about the book of Revelation. I doubt the name Witness Lee will even be known after 100 years much less 2,000 years. It's possible Watchman Nee will be remembered. Does the recovery think fhd writings of WL surpasses the writings of Paul?
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Old 12-14-2016, 06:14 AM   #25
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Well Paul only wrote 15 books over his ministry period of 30 years. Witness Lee wrote over 400 books over a ministry period of about 50 years. Paul did not write sufficiently for us today. In fact Paul did not even write books to explain various things like Witness Lee did, they are just letters from which we must infer many things. The insufficiency of Paul's writings is evident by the prevalence of Christian writings today and Christian bookstores. Otherwise why would we need them? It is remarkable that some Christians think God, knowing that the church would continue or 2000 years after Paul, would not provide people with sufficient written resources to aid their spiritual growth, by people such as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:12 AM   #26
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I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:23 AM   #27
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I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.
Witness Lee may have written Watchman Nee: A Seer in the Divine Revelation in the Present Age, but that's about it. Perpetually attached recording devices and teams of volunteer and paid transcribers/editors/proofreaders/printers, etc., is not the same thing as "writing over 400 books."
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:52 AM   #28
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I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.
It's actually a bit ironic when you really think about it. Virtually all the LSM publications are transcriptions of messages that Nee and Lee gave. Along with WL's Seer, I think Nee wrote several books, though I don't recall which ones they were, but other than that it's virtually all messages.

The thing about a message is it's given to a specific audience. A book is usually written with a much larger audience in mind. When WL traveled to a church somewhere, gave a conference, how do we know those messages were intended to be applicable to everyone, not just to address a need with the church that invited him? We simply have no way of knowing what WL's was intending to accomplish with any given message that he gave.

And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with producing books that are transcriptions of messages. I think there are plenty of such types of Christian books that can be beneficial. It's just that LSM has transcribed everything spoken into the written form and then published it, as if every single spoken message WL gave is universally applicable. That is mainly what I call into question. When LSM publishes a random book composed of messages WL gave at some point, how do we know that those messages are applicable to us now? Why should anyone feel compelled to read them? By contrast, anyone can go to a Christian book store or go online to Kindle and download a book to read, a book written on a particular topic, meant to address a particular subject, not based on some message given in the distant past.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:54 AM   #29
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Along with WL's Seer, I think Nee wrote several books, though I don't recall which ones they were, but other than that it's virtually all messages.
Nee did do some writing, but I believe the only book he actually ever sat down and wrote was The Spiritual Man.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:04 AM   #30
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

I kept my green bound life-studies for a long time. They sat in the garage in a cardboard box for years. I guess my original idea that they were a good summation of the Bible stuck with me. Finally I just decided to get rid of them. It felt hypocritical to sell them so I put them in my car and went and threw them in a dumpster. It wasn't an act of contempt, just cleaning out the garage and moving on. I've never regretted it.

Besides, the strength of Lee's ministry was never in the details. In fact he often goes way off on the details, particularly about relationships. He was really always about the big vision and that can pretty much be summed up in one book or his Bible footnotes. Most of his stuff is very repetitive to the point of being superfluous.

Lee was never very good about practically applying the word to real life. He was always about life being an ongoing process of being blown away by big visions, being motivated by that to do things (attend meetings, give money), and then repeating.

What was essentially good about Lee's ministry? Basically to have a real intimate relationship with God, let that permeate your life and cause you meet with other Christians in unity and simplicity for the glory of God. That's what's stuck with me--have a real relationship with Christ and love and receive all believers, don't get hung up on doctrines.

The rest was just the details. Some was very good: Resurrection life, indwelling Spirit, glorious riches. But much was just superfluous and even in error: The local ground, mingling, metabolic transformation, spiritual authority, the Recovery, Minister of the Age, one trumpet, quarantining.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:19 AM   #31
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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I kept my green bound life-studies for a long time. They sat in the garage in a cardboard box for years. I guess my original idea that they were a good summation of the Bible stuck with me. Finally I just decided to get rid of them. It felt hypocritical to sell them so I put them in my car and went and threw them in a dumpster.
I gave mine to an old friend. He and his wife had a spat and she took all his green and blue books and threw them in a dumpster.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:44 AM   #32
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I gave mine to an old friend. He and his wife had a spat and she took all his green and blue books and threw them in a dumpster.
Maybe he lectured her from "the Ministry." Big mistake!
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Old 12-14-2016, 12:47 PM   #33
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Maybe he lectured her from "the Ministry." Big mistake!
She had an "allergic reaction" to the ministry "medication."
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Old 12-14-2016, 01:47 PM   #34
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Old 12-14-2016, 07:09 PM   #35
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Well Paul only wrote 15 books over his ministry period of 30 years. Witness Lee wrote over 400 books over a ministry period of about 50 years. Paul did not write sufficiently for us today. In fact Paul did not even write books to explain various things like Witness Lee did, they are just letters from which we must infer many things. The insufficiency of Paul's writings is evident by the prevalence of Christian writings today and Christian bookstores. Otherwise why would we need them? It is remarkable that some Christians think God, knowing that the church would continue or 2000 years after Paul, would not provide people with sufficient written resources to aid their spiritual growth, by people such as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.
"The insufficiency of Paul's writings"

Wow! That statement was an honest opinion that would never be uttered in pub!ic by the elders or LSM leaders. There we have it, God's inspired word, the New Testsament is insufficient!!
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:09 PM   #36
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"The insufficiency of Paul's writings"

Wow! That statement was an honest opinion that would never be uttered in pub!ic by the elders or LSM leaders. There we have it, God's inspired word, the New Testsament is insufficient!!
So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:25 PM   #37
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So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.
There is the warning in Revelation 22 about not adding or taking away from the revelation. The fact that it came at the end of the whole Bible could be taken to mean "revelation" refers to the whole Bible.

The LCM has always flirted with the idea that Lee's teaching was "further revelation" almost on par or even on par with the Bible. That's the danger.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

The concept of needing "the interpreted Word" from "the minister of the Word" came from Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=27062AC2C5

It was restated by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBC5

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBCA

And in recent years, I witnessed "the blenders", coworkers, elders, and saints in TLR teaching that "the interpreted Word" is the LSM publications, and they are better than the Bible itself for guiding your Christian life and "church life".

That is one of the things that caused me to run, and run fast from TLR.

Paul considered that he was completing the word of God http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-25.htm

John and Old Testament prophets gave severe warnings about adding to or taking away from God's Word
http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-19.htm

That's enough for me to steal clear of LSM "interpreted word" claims, and warn others not to "buy it". Read the Bible yourself, rely on the Holy Spirit first, commentaries second.
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Old 12-14-2016, 10:45 PM   #39
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

If it is correct that we just need to read the Bible for ourselves and rely on the Spirit, then why did God give the church teachers? (Ephesians 4:11). It seems that teachers are not required if we just read for ourselves and rely upon the Spirit.

And why did the Spirit lead Philip to speak to this man:

Acts 8:30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

Acts 8:31 "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Did Philip tell the man to "rely on the Holy Spirit first"? No, it was the Spirit who inspired Philip to help the man.

Reading the bible for ourselves without consulting others is a sure way to fall into deception. We need teachers and explainers like Philip to help us understand the Bible.

This is why we have Sunday School classes. We don't just expect children to read the bible for themselves and not help them understand it.

I know the hypocrisy of many in denominations today. On the one hand they hold just a copy of the Bible and claim to be led by the Spirit when they read it, not requiring any other assistance. On the other hand they gladly accept the pastor's messages (such as how to be successful in business etc) which have nothing to do with Paul's ministry, and when they say "give more so you will be blessed more" they are all too willing to part with their money so as to receive a "blessing".
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:14 PM   #40
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

Good come back. You have been well trained, as that example was cited by both Nee and Lee as the basis for their "interpreted word" teaching. Phillip's interpretation helped the Eunich to understand the scripture and turn to Jesus. But Phillip didn't tell the Eunich to put his scripture away. And, the Holy Spirit bore witness to both.

Dropping any one of these things (help from other brothers, written scripture, or Holy Spirit's guidance) is the problem.

I observed saints reading only portions of LSM without the verse references, dead meetings without scripture reading to check what was being said, and praising of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and/or "the church".
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:03 AM   #41
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Good come back. You have been well trained, as that example was cited by both Nee and Lee as the basis for their "interpreted word" teaching. Phillip's interpretation helped the Eunich to understand the scripture and turn to Jesus. But Phillip didn't tell the Eunich to put his scripture away. And, the Holy Spirit bore witness to both.

Dropping any one of these things (help from other brothers, written scripture, or Holy Spirit's guidance) is the problem.

I observed saints reading only portions of LSM without the verse references, dead meetings without scripture reading to check what was being said, and praising of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and/or "the church".
It's not a replacement for scripture, we never tell anyone to put scripture away. Scripture always comes first.
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:23 AM   #42
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It's not a replacement for scripture, we never tell anyone to put scripture away. Scripture always comes first.
Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:30 AM   #43
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Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.
Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:33 AM   #44
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Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame.
I gotta love you, Evangelical. You are giving me so much material for my comic strip MOTA!
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:36 AM   #45
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Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.
The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:55 AM   #46
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.
Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
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Old 12-15-2016, 08:00 AM   #47
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Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.
Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.
No. That's only fmr. Just like licking the bbq sauce off the chicken.
Buy multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages, for afternoon revival, fnr, ...
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:07 AM   #48
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Default Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints"

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Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.
There are all kinds of material available to indoctrinate young people if your goal is to fill them with theology. Any church could to that and they wouldn't need Lee's ministry to do it.

What most leaders have figured out is that doesn't work. What works is helping kids have a love for God and others. Inundating them with theology can just give them a false sense of spirituality--as it has done with (ahem) some people we know.

As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice may teach kids to mindlessly repeat things they don't even really believe to get crowd approval. Not very healthy.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:24 AM   #49
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As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice ...
Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.
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Old 12-15-2016, 09:52 AM   #50
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The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.
Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

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Old 12-15-2016, 10:03 AM   #51
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Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!
Any shame when the manager of LSM gets caught with "interns."

Even our Prez took more heat than "The Office" for the same sins.

Perhaps the proponents of LSM on this forum will use the excuse that a ministry and its staff are not subject to the same standards as elders and churches. The apostle Paul, however, would differ. (II Cor 4.2)
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Old 12-15-2016, 10:16 AM   #52
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Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

Drake
Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.
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Old 12-15-2016, 10:33 AM   #53
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Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.
In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.
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Old 12-15-2016, 11:38 AM   #54
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In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.
In my neck of the woods it often seemed like hotheads were always promoted and rarely were held accountable. When my son thinks back on the LC experience, he remembers one event at a church camp that stood out. One of the boys was being a pain while playing unsupervised basketball, so he made up a story, told his dad, and blamed my son. Dad shows up and strangled my son screaming at him.

Hothead never asked the other boys what was happening in the game. Hothead never cared to reconcile or moderate play, introducing his son back into the game. All the other church kids were just shocked that junior had successfully deceived his father. I was not at the camp, but I assume that hothead had to leave "the fellowship" in order to intervene ...

Nothing was really learned there about relationships. I found out months later. Hothead was close friends with the leading elder, so there was no available recourse, and I know how they think, "kids need to learn a lesson ..."

And the "lessons" they learned?
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:23 PM   #55
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In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.
The numbers may be comparable, I'm not sure--although I do think the number that leaves the LC is closer to 90%. I've seen FTTA grads snap and give up the whole thing, even to become atheists. And that is something especially troubling to me--"church-kids" who become disillusioned often seem to have be so messed up by it that they are unable to get spiritual help anywhere after that.
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:44 PM   #56
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And that is something especially troubling to me--"church-kids" who become disillusioned often seem to have be so messed up by it that they are unable to get spiritual help anywhere after that.
This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.
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Old 12-15-2016, 03:14 PM   #57
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This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.
It is a thought provoking discussion and there could be several possible reasons.

I don't agree with generalizations but I don't dismiss the anecdotal out of hand either. I have some of my own, for instance, there is a higher dropout rate in America that I don't see in other places. Second and third generation often do not have the life changing experiences that brought their parents or grandparents into the Lords Recovery and still keeps them. The restrictions placed on the children in terms of television, dances, parties, and other activities considered worldly created resentment. Young people today have the lure of the world and ready made accommodation to sin right at their fingertips that we never had to deal with. There were individual situations like Ohio mentions.

I join Igzy in this sincere plea: Lord help us and the young people.

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Old 12-15-2016, 04:54 PM   #58
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I was born and raised in the LC, and as such, I got to experience some of the disconnect in discussion first hand. For example, my family was completely anti-Christmas, even to an extreme. So much so that on days where there were holiday related activities, we were pulled from school. As a kid, I obviously had no idea what was going on, other than the stark realization that I was different than everyone else. Moreover the whole attitude felt punitive. Us kids didn't even know what Christmas was, yet we kids got 'punished' for it in the sense of the social isolation. I've since moved on from the resentment, since what happened is over and done. The reason I bring this up ,however, is to illustrate just what happens when things are imposed as has been discussed.

Getting back to the subject of LSM publications, I believe that there is anecdotal value to this type of discussion. When WL started out, I think that people were drawn to him because he was perceived to be a gifted Bible teacher. Thus his ministry and publications had some sort of expository value to people who felt it helped them to know the Bible better. Somewhere along the way, a view developed that WL's ministry encompassed THE truth that everyone needed to be 'constituted' with. This was certainly my view of his ministry, and the view that was continually instilled in me. Notice that I'm not saying that his ministry didn't have any potential benefit. It's just the fact that the entire approach was wrong. Along with anyone else, if we were going to be encouraged to read WL's ministry, it should have been with a personal goal to be able to know and understand the Bible better. That was never the goal. The goal was to be 'constituted' with his ministry.

The end result is members, even young members, who can recite spiritual jargon but really have no clue what they are talking about. Maybe a lot of it is just harmless, I'm not out to judge, but I do see it all the time on places like Facebook. The more concerning issue, however, is what happens when all these people run into problems that they're not ready to deal with, problems that reciting spiritual jargon can't solve. Again, I'm not saying that WL's ministry itself is the dead end, it's how it is being utilized and promoted. It is my belief that the current LC approach to WL's ministry has ruined any positive benefit it might have had for the larger Christian community.
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Old 12-15-2016, 04:59 PM   #59
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This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.
This to me is inexcusable. Many workers / trainers at LSM actively desire to make their young people totally "wrecked" for Christianity. They would rather have these young people in the world or in a mental hospital, than have them in another Christian church. How pathetic is this?

This disease came straight from the top. The constant railing against all things Christian, has born fruit, bad fruit.

One of the things that surprised us the most, while visiting other churches, is this multi-generational faith. We often saw 3 generations of Christians in the church, with the grandchildren marrying and starting the fourth. What a beautiful thing!

Exclusivism truly is a self-destructive disease.
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:00 PM   #60
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Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.
You are talking about the difference between those who use their spirit and those who don't.
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:03 PM   #61
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This to me is inexcuseable. Many workers / trainers at LSM actively desire to make the young people "wrecked" for Christianity. They would rather have these young people in the world or in a mental hospital, than have them in another Christian church. How pathetic is this?

This disease came straight from the top. The constant railing against all things Christian, has born fruit, bad fruit.

One of the things that surprised us the most, while visiting other churches, is this multi-generational faith. We often saw 3 generations of Christians in the church, with the grandchildren marrying and starting the fourth. What a beautiful thing!

Exclusivism truly is a self-destructive disease.
Generational Christianity is evident in Catholic and JW churches too. Actually the Mormons do it even better, with the power of exponentiation with multiple wives.
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:15 PM   #62
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The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.
Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:16 PM   #63
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The end result is members, even young members, who can recite spiritual jargon but really have no clue what they are talking about. Maybe a lot of it is just harmless, I'm not out to judge, but I do see it all the time on places like Facebook. The more concerning issue, however, is what happens when all these people run into problems that they're not ready to deal with, problems that reciting spiritual jargon can't solve. Again, I'm not saying that WL's ministry itself is the dead end, it's how it is being utilized and promoted. It is my belief that the current LC approach to WL's ministry has ruined any positive benefit it might have had for the larger Christian community.
How do you know that people don't have a clue what they are talking about based upon their Facebook post?
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:17 PM   #64
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To me a test of your validity and sincerity as a believer is: Can you pass on your faith to the next generation? The cliche is that the preacher's kids are often the wildest. Witness Lee's son Philip was out of control. It's a real challenge that can be easily blown if you handle it wrong.

I went to an event where the writer of the book The Shack (soon to be a movie) spoke frankly about his life. His dad was a Christian worker of some sort, but one who showed very little love for his children. He was well-behaved at church, but abusive at home. It's a sad legacy that is repeated all too often.

There is something about we committed Christians who are parents that tends to expect our kids to be good Christians as a matter of course. This won't work. We need to be proactive in a genuine way.

My approach is simple and basic:
  • Love your kids.
  • Be holy, but not holier-than-thou.
  • Apologize when you've done wrong. Don't protect your image.
  • Be genuine.
  • Don't be a prude. Have a sense of humor.
  • Teach your kids the essentials: Love. Relationships. Prayer. Faith. Trust. The positive rewards of a life entrusted to God.
  • A little theology is okay, but don't overdo it. They will tune it out. Always bring it back to a joyful and natural relationship with God.
  • Always let them know that they are special to God. Teach them to be content and comfortable with how God made them.
  • Laugh a lot. Have a happy home.
  • Show them a life of sacrificial love. This where the rubber meets the road. This is what God honors.
  • Pray, pray, pray.
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:44 PM   #65
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How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.
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Old 12-15-2016, 05:54 PM   #66
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How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.
I agree with that.

I have witnessed model parents in the faith and by any standard terrific where some of their children turned out superb and others not so good. I have also witnessed parents who were not so faithful but their children turned out great.

There are many factors and at some point children decide and make choices for themselves.

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Old 12-15-2016, 07:46 PM   #67
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How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.
Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.
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Old 12-15-2016, 08:27 PM   #68
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Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.
Do you actually believe that?
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Old 12-15-2016, 08:35 PM   #69
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Do you actually believe that?
No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.
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Old 12-15-2016, 08:37 PM   #70
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How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.
True enough. But how your children turn out is absolutely one of the tests for qualification and fitness for leadership - At the very least, being an elder or a deacon. This is where Witness Lee failed miserably, and this failure was known by brothers and sisters in the Far East going back to at least the 60s.

This is one of the main reasons I question those who say there was so much "blessing" in the Local Church of Witness Lee movement at any point in time. Yes, God can bless whomever he chooses to bless, regardless of their spirituality, holiness, knowledge, faithfulness, etc. God knows that I am living proof of this. However, individual blessing is a totally different matter than the blessing, much less approval, of an entire Christian movement.

Witness Lee, and now the Blended Brothers, demand that every Local Church member fully imbibe (swallow wholesale) everything that came out of Witness Lee's mouth. Everything the man ever said is to be taken as manna from heaven. As a matter of fact, Lee's words are to be taken as the ONLY manna from heaven. This would be a huge enough problem if Witness Lee was someone qualified in person, character, education and reputation to be a leader of an entire movement - the fact that he was unqualified in any of these aspects makes the whole situation very sad and very dangerous for his followers. May God have mercy.

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Old 12-15-2016, 08:40 PM   #71
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Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.
good response
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Old 12-15-2016, 08:59 PM   #72
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No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.
As I mentioned before--even LC leaders agonize over the fact that 50% of the young people leave the LC during their high school years (data based on a detailed "census" maintained each year in Southern California). When you consider the number that leave after high school, during college, into young adulthood, etc., the final number that leaves has to be much higher that. Almost no one I grew up with in the LC remains there. And sadly, there are very, very few among those who are any kind of practicing Christian at all.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:22 AM   #73
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No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.
If it wasn't so sad, I would pad my comments with numerous details and stories.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:41 AM   #74
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Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.
I think we all know fakes when we see them. But some people will have a stake in pretending the fake is real, hence they fall into a trap. This happened at Enron. You know it is fake, but your entire net worth is tied up in the sham. As a result you become a slave of sin.

Children growing up in this environment can see it, but are not enslaved to it, so it is much easier for them to leave.

It is like Upton Sinclair said, it is very hard for a man to know the truth when his job is paying him to not know it.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:44 AM   #75
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If it wasn't so sad, I would pad my comments with numerous details and stories.
Why is it sad? Got is not mocked. You reap what you sow.
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Old 12-16-2016, 05:49 AM   #76
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Why is it sad? Got is not mocked. You reap what you sow.
It is sad because I knew so many of these young people who have basically given up on the Lord.
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Old 12-16-2016, 06:06 AM   #77
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It is sad because I knew so many of these young people who have basically given up on the Lord.
God deals with us as sons, if He didn't we would be bastards. You get what you pay for. You want to inherit the kingdom, then you should embrace paying the price.

The standard swindle in the world is the idea of getting something for nothing, it is simply a way to swindle sinners enticed by greed and avarice. If you are not willing to pay the price for something then you don't really want it in the first place.
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Old 12-18-2016, 08:48 AM   #78
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So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.
Evangelical, I'm curious about this. If Paul's writings could be in need of "deeper and further revelation which others could complete", do you feel the same is true for Nee and Lee's writings?

The Bible may never say it was complete, but the LC seems to say that Lee's writings/ministry are complete and will end the age. Since the Lord hasn't returned yet, could there be more revelation, ministry and such from believers? I personally don't see any need for more revelation than Christ and Him crucified, but I'm curious your thoughts.

I remember expecting my first child and reading some of Nee's writings having to do with family and child rearing with my in-laws. We read a portion where it was suggested that the whole family should be involved in the punishment of children. After the parents had hit the children's hands with an implement and made them bleed, the siblings should be ready with cloth and water to help tend to the wounds. Kinda freaked me out a bit. As you suggested that Paul didn't write sufficiently for us today, I would suggest that Nee and Lee didn't write sufficiently for us today, either.
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Old 12-18-2016, 09:08 AM   #79
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I remember expecting my first child and reading some of Nee's writings having to do with family and child rearing with my in-laws. We read a portion where it was suggested that the whole family should be involved in the punishment of children. After the parents had hit the children's hands with an implement and made them bleed, the siblings should be ready with cloth and water to help tend to the wounds. Kinda freaked me out a bit. As you suggested that Paul didn't write sufficiently for us today, I would suggest that Nee and Lee didn't write sufficiently for us today, either.
W. Nee obviously never had children of his own. He spoke more from some ancient Chinese customs, than from the Bible.

And to think ... LSM regularly condemns Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family. Most of us had to read his books in secret.
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Old 12-18-2016, 07:57 PM   #80
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Evangelical, I'm curious about this. If Paul's writings could be in need of "deeper and further revelation which others could complete", do you feel the same is true for Nee and Lee's writings? The Bible may never say it was complete, but the LC seems to say that Lee's writings/ministry are complete and will end the age. Since the Lord hasn't returned yet, could there be more revelation, ministry and such from believers?
Well they are complete because they are dead. It doesn't stop anyone else coming along and providing further revelation.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:41 AM   #81
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"further revelation" has gotten false teachers and apostles and their followers in a lot of trouble since the beginning. Most of the time this is because their "further revelation" is untethered from the plain words of the Scriptures, or sometimes the twisting of or misinterpretation of the plain words.

Still other false teachers and apostles claim to be bringing us back to the original or "recovered" interpretations/meanings of the Scriptures. In most cases, this term recovered is nothing more than the wolf of heresy disguised in the sheep's clothing of "further revelation".

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Old 12-19-2016, 08:52 AM   #82
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Well they are complete because they are dead. It doesn't stop anyone else coming along and providing further revelation.
That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books!
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:37 PM   #83
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That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books!
I disagree with that because there are still lots of verses in my recovery version that have no foot notes or where the foot notes are very light in specifics.
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Old 12-19-2016, 06:08 PM   #84
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I disagree with that because there are still lots of verses in my recovery version that have no foot notes or where the foot notes are very light in specifics.
Well, that's what they taught, dude. Best deal with it and talk to them about it. I'm just the messenger.
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Old 12-21-2016, 06:14 AM   #85
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That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books!
This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.
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Old 12-21-2016, 06:39 AM   #86
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This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.
Paul said he had not arrived, even Witness Lee said he had not yet arrived. I guess they should revise their RcV to say that they have arrived.
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Old 12-21-2016, 11:23 AM   #87
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This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.
Earlier you mentioned Nee's 'advice' on how to discipline children using a form of corporal punishment. These kinds of teachings are the perfect example of why these ministries are not any kind of "final package" to be followed 'absolutely'. Unless LC members are willing to follow Nee's advice and risk getting arrested for child abuse, then it seems they are not really as 'absolute' for the ministry as they claim to be. This highlights a lot of the irony involved in the exclusive use of LSM materials. These kinds of things are still published by LSM and then read among LC members, and while certain things they (hopefully) know not to take seriously, they read these things anyways as if there is some value in reading them. I suspect that the only reason anyone pays any attention to such nonsense like this is because such things came directly from the mouth of the perceived Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age.

Under normal circumstances, if LC members read something by Nee or Lee that they disagreed with, they should have every right to vocalize that disagreement. Instead, they are forced to read things that everyone knows won't be taken seriously, yet they have to keep the disagreement to themselves, and simply 'ignore' things that bother them. Valuable time is wasted reading things of little value. And I'm not saying that Nee or Lee's ministry have no value at all, but because an exclusive use of their ministries has been mandated, the things of little value are mixed in with the things that do have the potential to be helpful, thereby resulting in an ultimate watering down of any potential benefit of these ministries.
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:14 PM   #88
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Under normal circumstances, if LC members read something by Nee or Lee that they disagreed with, they should have every right to vocalize that disagreement. Instead, they are forced to read things that everyone knows won't be taken seriously, yet they have to keep the disagreement to themselves, and simply 'ignore' things that bother them. Valuable time is wasted reading things of little value. And I'm not saying that Nee or Lee's ministry have no value at all, but because an exclusive use of their ministries has been mandated, the things of little value are mixed in with the things that do have the potential to be helpful, thereby resulting in an ultimate watering down of any potential benefit of these ministries.
I remember attending a home meeting where we read a Nee excerpt in which he went on a rant about casinos/gambling. Obviously, among LC members or Christians in general, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would be interested in gambling or patronizing casinos. Therefore, the inevitable question arises, what is the value of reading ministry on that specific topic like that? Towards the end of that meeting, I felt a bit frustrated when trying to think of what I could possibly share as my ‘enjoyment’ from that reading.

In a situation like what I have described, I don’t fault Nee for having ministered on a topic of questionable relevance, rather I fault whoever haphazardly selected the reading material. Unlike Nee’s opinions on discipline children, I don’t find anything objectionable about speaking against casinos or gambling, however, the question in a case like this is how relevant or necessary the topic is. We mustn’t forget that the LC criticizes ministries that focus on subjects like marriage that are indeed relevant to people, however, whenever Nee or Lee went off on some tangent about something hardly relevant to anyone, LC members are expected to just read it without objection or complaint.

I attended enough LC home meetings to know that the part of the meeting where everyone’s attention started to become a bit strained is when it was time to read whatever the assigned material was. I think part of the reason for that was simply that everyone knew that there was little likelihood the reading material would meet any practical need. Again, the inability to identify with the subject of the ministry material at hand doesn’t necessary fault the ministry itself, but how it is being utilized. The LC likes to do everything in a cookie-cutter fashion. It is assumed that anything Nee or Lee taught is relevant to any situation at any point in time.

As far as I’m concerned, the root of the problem is related to how LC leaders have attempted to utilize and promote the ministries of Nee and Lee. I’m not aware of anyone on this forum who has claimed that Nee and Lee didn’t any positive aspects to their ministries. But the pressing question is why, despite the seemingly positive aspects of either or both ministries, that both ministries remain largely irrelevant and suspect to the general Christian public? I would say that by strongly and haphazardly promoting anything related to these ministries, LC leaders have successfully caused many people to see the questionable or irrelevant aspects of either ministry instead of anything potentially beneficial. At the present, it seems LC members are also beginning to experience the same kind of disconnect with these ministries.
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Old 12-23-2016, 04:30 AM   #89
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I remember attending a home meeting where we read a Nee excerpt in which he went on a rant about casinos/gambling. Obviously, among LC members or Christians in general, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would be interested in gambling or patronizing casinos. Therefore, the inevitable question arises, what is the value of reading ministry on that specific topic like that? Towards the end of that meeting, I felt a bit frustrated when trying to think of what I could possibly share as my ‘enjoyment’ from that reading.
IIRC, that message was part of a series of books, "Do All to the Glory of God," in a section on recreation and playing games. Nee felt we should never play games of chance, a very extreme view, and only play games of skill. He did not differentiate between casino gambling and home games, nor did he differentiate between playing for fun and playing for money. I remember thinking, "chess good, monopoly bad."

How could a family game using chance, i.e. the rolling of dice, be bad for Christians? Playing games is a great family activity, especially for Christians. It's real hard for old and young to play games like Scrabble together, and rolling dice becomes a great equalizer. Nee didn't think so.
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Old 12-23-2016, 05:37 AM   #90
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IIRC, that message was part of a series of books, "Do All to the Glory of God," in a section on recreation and playing games. Nee felt we should never play games of chance, a very extreme view, and only play games of skill. He did not differentiate between casino gambling and home games, nor did he differentiate between playing for fun and playing for money. I remember thinking, "chess good, monopoly bad."

How could a family game using chance, i.e. the rolling of dice, be bad for Christians? Playing games is a great family activity, especially for Christians. It's real hard for old and young to play games like Scrabble together, and rolling dice becomes a great equalizer. Nee didn't think so.
It is also completely impractical. All business decisions are a game of chance. All career decisions are a game of chance. Is a game of cards gambling or skill? Obviously gambling when you are looking at those who are addicts and have blown their life savings. Obviously skill when you are talking about Warren Buffet playing bridge.

Every year I have to decide what the best use of my time is for my students to get the maximum benefit, if I make a mistake I will find out at the end of the year. Therefore I use a lot of statistical analysis, almost on a daily basis, to determine what the best use of my time is. It is a gamble. Like all gambling, knowledge is power, the better your information, the better your decisions. Figuring this out is not that different from the process a Bridge player goes through in order to bid.

This was one of those things that WN taught that I quietly decided to discard while still in the LRC. Gambling can be an addiction, like alcohol, so it is better when you are talking to a church of thousands to be concerned with those who are former addicts. But, it is also something that is necessary and useful, so what you do privately, let each be persuaded in his own conscience.
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:17 PM   #91
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I came across a Facebook post and apparently LSM made a big deal about purchasing and reading their publications during their winter training. Here is their latest gimmick:
The following are display/library sets offered as packages by the Living Stream Ministry with the purpose of providing churches or individuals with a set of Living Stream publications for physical display and sale of ministry material or to serve as a library for loaning out to individuals. For ordering, please contact us directly.
https://www.livingstream.com/en/49-d...brary-packages

The 'comprehensive' package is only $4524 . It's sad to think that all the LC members who sacrifice their hard earned dollars and vacation time go all the way to Anaheim only to be subjected to LSM's latest sales pitch. They don't even realize what is happening either. If LSM makes a point encouraging people to read and buy their books, LC members think it's for good reason, without questioning it. The vast majority of LSM's publications are readily available to read online for free, so if people really wanted to read them that bad, they would. It's really that simple.

Apparently LSM thinks an increased physical presence of their books in meeting halls and homes is going to result in more sales. They couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, they better pick more exciting cover art for their books.
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Old 12-31-2016, 07:33 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
Apparently LSM thinks an increased physical presence of their books in meeting halls and homes is going to result in more sales. They couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, they better pick more exciting cover art for their books.



Does THIS look like $4,524.58 worth of "riches" to you?

But wait...there's more....does it include those compressed wood bookcases?
-
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Old 12-31-2016, 08:22 PM   #93
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I also saw these posts on Facebook showing a giant video screen advertising these ridiculous library sets as well as other books and book packages.

This has to bother some people.
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Old 01-01-2017, 07:07 PM   #94
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I also saw these posts on Facebook showing a giant video screen advertising these ridiculous library sets as well as other books and book packages.

This has to bother some people.
I’m sure that some people are bothered. The question is whether they are willing to speak out, or if they simply shrug it off. I’m afraid that the latter is the standard response. It doesn’t come as a complete surprise though, because I think LC members are accustomed to being pressured with whatever they latest promotion is. They know that if they ignore it, it will go away once the next gimmick starts making its rounds in the LC.

What I find striking though, is that is seems that the LSM is no longer that interested in putting much effort into disguising their intentions. In the past, it seems they at least wanted to hide behind some teaching (like the “one publication”), but now they are simply trying to increase sales by telling everyone that they should read more ministry books (as if LC members don't already read enough LSM publications). The fact that they are publicly advertising these book sets along with the different price points doesn’t really do a good job at ‘hiding’ anything. Anyone willing to be honest with themselves can easily tell what’s going on.

The only ones fooled are those who are opening their wallets and buying books that they don't need.
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Old 01-03-2017, 11:18 AM   #95
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As I see it, LSM is definitely taking a big risk by doing what they're doing. LC members sacrifice vacation time and money to attend trainings based on a perception that by traveling to Anaheim, they will be part of the "up-to-date speaking." They feel that nothing else could be a better use of time. As such, there is already the understanding that the training will be used to release the latest 'burden', so I think they are more or less prepared whatever the latest thing is that LSM is trying to sell or pressure people with. The real issue, however, is how well they can sell their gimmicks and make it seem legitimate. When I attended the semi-annual trainings, it was in the mid-2000s and they were talking about the GLA quarantine and the “one publication.” It seemed reasonable that they wanted to 'warn' everyone about the problem, so I didn't read too much into it at the time. I did question the relevance of what was being spoken, as I had no clue to any of the people involved in the scuffle, but I didn't question the larger relevancy. I just assumed that most others knew things that I didn't (but I now seriously doubt that this was the case).

At any rate, the point I'm getting at here is that by using their trainings and conferences to promote gimmicky things, LSM risks alienating some of those who would otherwise attend. Before I had any LC-specific concerns or came to this forum, I stopped attending the LSM trainings. It wasn't because I didn't want to go and be part of the 'environment', it was because I realized that there was little point in attending. I realized that I didn’t need to hear all the special ‘fellowship’ that seemed to make it’s way into the trainings. Also, I realized that the church would eventually cover the material from the training anyways (in the HWFMR). Eventually, I came to realize that the material being covered was also questionable, but that wasn't what initially prompted me to avoid the trainings, it was the way the time was being utilized.

I would suspect that at least some LC members get frustrated over such things. It's kind of a slap in the face to get confronted with a sales pitch after paying an exorbitant training fee + flight + hotel (I recall that LSM started limiting who they would provide hospitality for). I think LSM is walking on thin ice with what they're trying to do. But that is their problem, not anyone else’s problem. For so long, they have been disdainful towards any notion that there would cease to be an unwavering demand for what they have to offer. Now that interest is waning in a noticeable way, the LSM is scrambling to find a solution. It seems they are willing to take risks.
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Old 02-06-2017, 11:14 AM   #96
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Living Stream Ministry
2431 W. La Palma Ave.
Anaheim, CA 92801

PO Box 2121
Anaheim, CA 92814

September 30, 2016

Dear Brothers,

For some time, we have been burdened about encouraging the saints to read ministry publications. In 2013, we released some excerpts from Brother Lee’s speaking on the burden and importance of the matter. He said: “I hope that all the churches in all the localities, which have received the supply in the Lord’s word from this ministry, will do their best to help the publication of the ministry…We want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books.” He hoped that the elders in each locality would “give the saints some help and encouragement so that each household would have a supply of spiritual books.” He charged us to lead the saints to have “a proper attitude to be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word.” He also said,
Quote:
If we have a clear view and know the Bible, the condition of today’s Christianity, the truth, and the mercy given to us by God, we would spend our whole life being immersed and soaked in the truth. Then we would surely have the burden to propagate this truth as much as possible among the brothers and sisters in the churches. We would endeavor to create among the brothers and the sisters an atmosphere of desiring the truth and the Life-studies…I hope that we could all learn to appreciate the Life-studies by diving into them, bathing in them, and allowing the light of the truth to penetrate us. Only then will we be able to spread the blessings and benefits that we have received, thereby creating an atmosphere in which the saints desire the truth and the Life-studies.

The Lord’s word will require that we bear the responsibility to labor willingly to zealously encourage and urge everyone in all the local churches to pursue the truth and read the spiritual publications. In this way the Lord’s truth will spread widely, and there will be a revival.

If all the six hundred churches on the earth would seriously read the Life-studies and thoroughly study the truths contained in them, I absolutely believe that a great revival would begin not only among us but even on the whole earth.

We should help the saints to build up a practice or habit that every day they would spend at least thirty minutes in the Word…I think we need to remind them week after week, and sometimes the elders need to give the saints some direction, some encouragement, and some incentive.
Moreover, we recently found the following quotation from page 163 of The Economy of God and the Mystery of the Transmission of the Divine Trinity regarding Brother Lee’s view concerning the publications.

Quote:
I hope that we could live to be eighty or ninety, even to over a hundred, so that we might be able to see the fulfillment of all that we have fellowshipped today. I wish to live on this earth and witness with my own eyes the truth of the Lord not only being printed into books through our hands, but also being sent through us to every part of the world and prevailing in every place. I absolutely believe that this will hasten the Lord’s return because it is through this that the Lord will prepare His bride. I hope that we can all see the manifestation of such a situation.
North American Elders

Based on the above words, we hope that you will fellowship about this matter among the saints. In particular, we hope that you will devote a devote a dedicated time to share this burden to the whole church. Jim Miller, Steve Watts, and Michio Miyake are quite burdened to help carry out this burden among us. We have proposed that the brothers visit the churches to fellowship more in depth about this burden. The brothers will be contacting you soon. We hope that you will arrange a time for these brothers to share with the elders and the saints the importance of this reading habit. This can be done over a weekend, or during a blending time of the churches in your region, or any time convenient to you.

May the Lord bless His recovery through His rich supply in His ministry and through the cooperation of the saints.

Your brothers,
Benson Philips, Ray Graver, Andrew Yu
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Old 03-23-2017, 07:02 PM   #97
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VIDEO: Revitalized Book Service in a Rented Meeting Place - The Church in Ontario, CA.


Encouraging the Saints to Build Up the Habit of Reading

We also want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books after every meal and before going to bed. They will gain a great benefit from reading in this way.

Finding Ways to Promote the Truth

We must have a proper attitude and be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word. If we do not find ways to promote the truth or pray, how can the Lord’s word be spread? If we take the Lord’s word lightly, how can we have boldness to promote the publications among the saints? (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth", pp. 189‐190, 207)
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:24 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
VIDEO: Revitalized Book Service in a Rented Meeting Place - The Church in Ontario, CA.


Encouraging the Saints to Build Up the Habit of Reading

We also want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books after every meal and before going to bed. They will gain a great benefit from reading in this way.

Finding Ways to Promote the Truth

We must have a proper attitude and be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word. If we do not find ways to promote the truth or pray, how can the Lord’s word be spread? If we take the Lord’s word lightly, how can we have boldness to promote the publications among the saints? (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth", pp. 189‐190, 207)
When you look at the way things are worded, phrases like "boldness to promote the publications" seem to stick out. If WL's ministry is so 'rich', why would it need to be promoted? Why would there be such need to encourage people to read it? By contrast people should be running to it, if it were everything it was claimed to be.

Everything about these types of promotions suggests there is some kind of underlying resistance or reluctance to read LSM books (which we know to be true), so to me, it exposes what a big sham it really is. If someone wants to read WL's books, then fine, go for it. But why do people need to be pressured or prodded to do so?

The fact that they have to 'promote' a basic interest in certain aspects of the LCM, basically defeats everything they think the LCM stands for. Maybe if they could bring themselves to admit that much there could be change, but that is unlikely.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:58 AM   #99
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When you look at the way things are worded, phrases like "boldness to promote the publications" seem to stick out. If WL's ministry is so 'rich', why would it need to be promoted? Why would there be such need to encourage people to read it? By contrast people should be running to it, if it were everything it was claimed to be.
I distinctly remember one training, II Corinthians, where WL unloaded heavy guilt upon all the trainees for insufficiently promoting his ministry, and thus opening the door for opposition voices to be heard across the land. Remember at that time LSM was engaged in lawsuits against Mindbenders and Godmen Thus the problem of being misrepresented by the Christian public was never WL's, because of his own aberrant teachings and practices, but the hearers' inability to properly and adequately promote his ministry as spiritual salesmen or women.

And that's the problem in Lee-land. It's everyone else's problem, but not Lee himself, because neither he nor his teachings could be anything but God-ordained and Spirit-anointed. And that includes such notables as LinKo, DayStar, and tennis rackets. At least the Papal Infallibility Doctrine was limited to matters of faith or morals. Lee's Infallibility in practice also included his two sons, Timothy and Philip.
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Old 03-24-2017, 02:51 PM   #100
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This is an interesting thread. Just seeing it for the first time today.

Some thoughts:

* young people leaving Christianity will likely continue to rise accross the board -- I say this because of the Internet, where atheists have a very loud voice, and overall trends of society becoming more secularized.

* I was in FTT for a time, and many of the trainees weren't that healthy in terms of attitude or practice. A large percentage go because of obligation/pressure. Not a good motive for successful training, even though the trainers themselves (Blendeds) seemed to think just getting them there is the main thing, then good things will happen.

* Haven't read anything of WL in a decade and gave away my box of books (almost entirely from FTT) years ago.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:11 PM   #101
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And that's the problem in Lee-land. It's everyone else's problem, but not Lee himself, because neither he nor his teachings could be anything but God-ordained and Spirit-anointed. And that includes such notables as LinKo, DayStar, and tennis rackets. At least the Papal Infallibility Doctrine was limited to matters of faith or morals. Lee's Infallibility in practice also included his two sons, Timothy and Philip.
I heard someone state that a LSM book they were reading wasn't helpful. Guess how an elder responded to that? He told the person that the reason they weren't finding Lee's book helpful was because they weren't reading it with someone else.

It amazes me how they cannot even admit for a second to the possibility that even small portions Lee's ministry might not be helpful to some people.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:29 PM   #102
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* young people leaving Christianity will likely continue to rise accross the board -- I say this because of the Internet, where atheists have a very loud voice, and overall trends of society becoming more secularized.

* I was in FTT for a time, and many of the trainees weren't that healthy in terms of attitude or practice. A large percentage go because of obligation/pressure. Not a good motive for successful training, even though the trainers themselves (Blendeds) seemed to think just getting them there is the main thing, then good things will happen.

* Haven't read anything of WL in a decade and gave away my box of books (almost entirely from FTT) years ago.
IMO, the blendeds are clueless when it comes to the needs of young people. Most I know who attended the FTT, had no desire to go, right up until the time when they were supposedly 'led' to go. And most had absolutely zero interest prior in reading LSM books or the Bible.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:11 AM   #103
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Does THIS look like $4,524.58 worth of "riches" to you?

But wait...there's more....does it include those compressed wood bookcases?
-
I know there are ones who look at the publication purchases as "service". From what I've seen in homes, you'll find bookcases of LSM publications in the living room and in a side room where a home office is, you'll find a bookcase of help books of family and marriage. It implies to me the LSM publications is for image while help book is where the real needs are.
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Old 03-25-2017, 10:19 AM   #104
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As I mentioned before--even LC leaders agonize over the fact that 50% of the young people leave the LC during their high school years (data based on a detailed "census" maintained each year in Southern California). When you consider the number that leave after high school, during college, into young adulthood, etc., the final number that leaves has to be much higher that. Almost no one I grew up with in the LC remains there. And sadly, there are very, very few among those who are any kind of practicing Christian at all.
In my generation (mid-late eighties) the percentage would be even higher. 95% would be fairly conservative. Only a few I knew remain.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:17 PM   #105
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I know there are ones who look at the publication purchases as "service". From what I've seen in homes, you'll find bookcases of LSM publications in the living room and in a side room where a home office is, you'll find a bookcase of help books of family and marriage. It implies to me the LSM publications is for image while help book is where the real needs are.
When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.
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Old 03-25-2017, 08:13 PM   #106
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When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.
And the books keep coming . . .
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Old 03-26-2017, 12:30 PM   #107
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When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.
In my younger days as a single brother, there was certainly more time to read than as a married brother. Living in a brother's house there was so much emphasis in reading the publications, reading the Word was deemphasized and secondary. At one of the college age meetings there was "a recommended list" of publications to read.
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Old 03-27-2017, 11:28 AM   #108
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And the books keep coming . . .
As long as people are willing to buy books, I guess that LSM has a market to sell them. But really, I don't look as anything different than if someone collects something, such as coke bottles. It's something purchased to display. And there is always going to be a limited market for that kind of stuff, limited to those who see a value in collecting it.
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:28 PM   #109
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From Church News:

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How does your locality conduct an effective book service in a rented meeting place?

In order to help the saints pursue the truth and read more spiritual publications, the church in Ontario (CA) has recently started providing mobile and effective book service through a portable display stand for the saints on Lord’s Day. They rent a few rooms from a local high school each Lord’s day and because of this they are using a portable book display for convenience.

Before having this portable display, the book service in Ontario mostly consisted of distributing the Holy Word for Morning Revival to the saints. However, during the 2016 winter training, there was a burden to encourage the saints to read more of the ministry publications.

This burden was brought to the saints in Ontario to see how it can be carried out. Through prayer, fellowship and the Lord’s leading, a portable display stand was purchased along with one of the library packages offered by Living Stream Ministry (LSM). LSM offers display/library sets as packages with the purpose of providing churches or individuals with a set of Living Stream publications for physical display and sale of ministry material or to serve as a library for loaning out to individuals.

“The Lord’s word will require that we bear the responsibility to labor willingly to zealously encourage and urge everyone in all the local churches to pursue the truth and read the spiritual publications. In this way the Lord’s truth will spread widely, and there will be a real revival.” (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth,” p. 208)

The hope is that through this book service, the saints would be encouraged to pursue the truth and read more spiritual publications. Once the Lord’s truth gets into the saints, it can easily spread and this will help bring in a real revival in the saints and among the churches in the Lord’s recovery.
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:31 PM   #110
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The LC obsession with the sale of LSM books is truly bizarre and becoming more and more so.
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:41 PM   #111
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The LC obsession with the sale of LSM books is truly bizarre and becoming more and more so.
The whole idea of promoting and selling printed books is a bit dated. There's only going to be so much demand for that. I know that the LSM offers a lot of books in the electronic format, but it seems that for whatever reason, they prefer selling printed books. It could be about the money, I don't know.

As for the churches that are trying to demonstrate how to have a good "book service", I would think that the only reason for them doing so would be to demonstrate that they are in line with what the blendeds are saying, and maybe get a little bit of credit for being the first to implement something.
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:00 PM   #112
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The whole idea of promoting and selling printed books is a bit dated. There's only going to be so much demand for that. I know that the LSM offers a lot of books in the electronic format, but it seems that for whatever reason, they prefer selling printed books. It could be about the money, I don't know.
Declining booksales are the very reason that LSM recently started selling special libraries and sending brothers all over the U.S. and Canada to promote people's reading them. In the LC, book sales are used as an indication of both membership numbers and membership engagement. But in my opinion they are fighting a losing battle (for a variety of reasons).

I assume that income considerations must also be a factor, though I'm not entirely certain why.
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:12 PM   #113
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The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.

Freedom made an insightful observation in another thread when he pointed out that most LCers these days collect books more than read them. Once the publication of the CWWL is finished, I'm sure it will be a rite of passage for every young brother to acquire a complete set (as well as a set from the penultimate Minister-of-the-Age). The interesting thing is that this will become LSM's nearly only actual market.
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:29 AM   #114
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The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.
LSM has moved further and further away from God's Word. Initially the Conferences and Life Study Trainings were commentaries on scripture. Then we had Crystalization Studies based on the Life studies, and then we had the Blendeds re-speaking the Crystalizations.

Let's be honest, as much as LSM would like the truth to be different, the Lord is just not anointing their ministry any more. That's why it has no appeal. They can't just keep blaming all the readers and the hearers! The problem is with the source of their ministry, not with The Spirit of God or the children of God.

The leadership at LSM has never acknowledged nor repented of their past unrighteousness, especially how they have abused, mistreated, and slandered both former members and the Christian public.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:37 AM   #115
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The leadership at LSM has never acknowledged nor repented of their past unrighteousness, especially how they have abused, mistreated, and slandered both former members and the Christian public.
I hear what you're saying Ohio, but status is a standoff. Local elders generally feel the need to "be one with the brothers". As such any historical reports are regarded as "perceived wrongdoings".
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:51 AM   #116
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Default Re: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints

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The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.

Freedom made an insightful observation in another thread when he pointed out that most LCers these days collect books more than read them. Once the publication of the CWWL is finished, I'm sure it will be a rite of passage for every young brother to acquire a complete set (as well as a set from the penultimate Minister-of-the-Age). The interesting thing is that this will become LSM's nearly only actual market.
There's a term "early Lee" and "later Lee". Publications whose first editions came out prior to 1973 I enjoyed much more than those post-1973.

One item I cannot get over is how LSM receiving local churches can say they are not ministry churches. As soon a locality no longer receives LSM publications, it is no longer received by fellow localities. Moses Lake in Washington state and countless more in the Great lakes area.
By the way the GLA turmoil from the previous decade I feel in part was revenue based. You may say Titus had a work within a work, but from afar it didn't seem he was trying to compete against LSM.
Once the quarantine edicts were issued and lawsuits began, it was localities that had real estate were targeted. Others were passed over.
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Old 03-29-2017, 12:20 PM   #117
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Default Re: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints

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I hear what you're saying Ohio, but status is a standoff. Local elders generally feel the need to "be one with the brothers". As such any historical reports are regarded as "perceived wrongdoings".
That's why the local elders have little responsibility in the matter.
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Old 04-05-2017, 10:22 AM   #118
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That's why the local elders have little responsibility in the matter.
I have come to accept LC elders becoming a product of loyalty than of qualities mentioned in Paul's epistles.
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:14 AM   #119
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I have come to accept LC elders becoming a product of loyalty than of qualities mentioned in Paul's epistles.
You are so right. Of course!

We in the GLA always heard that Titus Chu was "different" in this matter.

Then it all hit close to home, prior to the GLA quarantines, and the perpetual "prevarications" of LC leadership smacked me upside the head, and this sleeper awoke. (Ephesians 5.14)
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Old 04-10-2017, 01:35 PM   #120
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One item I cannot get over is how LSM receiving local churches can say they are not ministry churches. As soon a locality no longer receives LSM publications, it is no longer received by fellow localities. Moses Lake in Washington state and countless more in the Great lakes area.
By the way the GLA turmoil from the previous decade I feel in part was revenue based. You may say Titus had a work within a work, but from afar it didn't seem he was trying to compete against LSM.
Once the quarantine edicts were issued and lawsuits began, it was localities that had real estate were targeted. Others were passed over.
In light of an apparent inability to sell books, it makes sense why the blendeds would feel threatened by publications not produced by LSM. Was that the entire issue? Probably not, but certainly a lot of the issues they have attempted to spiritualize are really just about money.
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Old 04-10-2017, 06:26 PM   #121
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In light of an apparent inability to sell books, it makes sense why the blendeds would feel threatened by publications not produced by LSM. Was that the entire issue? Probably not, but certainly a lot of the issues they have attempted to spiritualize are really just about money.
A brother I know had an audio tape of the Spring 1986 Elders Conference/training. As much time Lee spent speaking on Linko, instances like that says there's a HUGE emphasis on money.
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Old 06-16-2017, 07:51 PM   #122
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Default Re: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints

Encouraging responses from the saints in Florida after hearing the burden of getting into the ministry publications.

After the speaking, we allowed 20 to 30 minutes for testimonies of the saints' experience of reading the ministry publications. The saints were very appreciative of the visits and they all eagerly received and confirmed the burden. We focused our sharing on building up a daily 30-minute habit of reading the ministry, becoming a "scholarly" family by reading and accumulating books, and lending books. We recorded the testimonies of saints who gave us permission to share their testimony on the internet. We collected a minimum 10 testimonies per meeting. These will be used in our weekly newsletter.

The net effect of the church visits was not only a renewed appreciation of the ministry publications for personal and corporate enjoyment and distribution, but the visits were an encouragement and shepherding to the saints as well. The saints in Ft Meyers/Seabring were especially happy and receptive to the sharing, even promoting the ministry publications during their testimonies using the LSM flyers that we brought.

Both Samuel and I felt that there is a benefit to sharing the burden church by church. Moreover, there was great value in having Ted join us to gain a perspective of each church's local situation. This provides good foundation for his future revisits to the churches.

SUMMARY OF FLORIDA TRIP
  • June 2 Fly into JAX
  • June 3 Afternoon Jacksonville
  • SE Responsible Brothers' Meeting

Afternoon meeting with about 100 responsible brothers from Florida, Atlanta, Tennesee, South Carolina, and one brother from Brazil. We reviewed Br. Lee's burden for the leading ones to get into the truth, participate in building up a local book service, and leading the saints into the truth. Rick Scatterday was present and gave an excellent, short concluding word.

Documents distributed to brothers: LSM Sept 30 letter, eleven ministry exceprts, Propagation of the Truth in the Lord's Recovery, LSM package and CWWL flyers, booklists for LSM packages, outline: Fellowship on Establishing a Book Service, outline: How to Lend Books, outline: Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth, excerpt from CWWL 1997, vol 1, "We Become What we Read", Ray's sheet containing accounts of David Livingstone and Hudson Taylor borrowing books.
  • June 3 Evening Jacksonville
  • Evening mtg with about 25 saints from the church in Jacksonville
  • June 4 Jacksonville Lord's Table with about 50 saints
  • June 4 Tallahassee
  • Dinner with four responsible brothers then church mtg~15 saints.
  • June 5 Gainesville (with a few saints from Ocala)
  • Dinner with two brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
  • June 6 Orlando
  • Dinner with~ six brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
  • June 7 Tampa
  • Dinner with~ six brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
  • June 8 Ft Meyers (with Seabring)
  • Dinner with six brrothers, then Spanish-English meeting -34 saints
  • June 9 Miami-dinner with seven brothers
  • June 10 Miami (with Fort Lauderdale and Boca Raton)
  • Spanish-English meeting ~200 saints.

For the ministry propagation brothers,
Michio
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:11 PM   #123
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http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.
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Old 06-17-2017, 06:26 AM   #124
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http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.
That is crazy!

"The Interpreted Word saved me ..."

Witness Lee has "risen" above Jesus and His word.
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:28 AM   #125
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http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.
Their 'testimonies' have some interesting titles...

"Those two books turned my life around"

"The Ministry Book that Stopped Me from Arguing with Brother Lee"

"Crucial Matters in the Bible Revealed to Me by the Books of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"

"The Writings of Witness Lee Opening Up Truth after Truth from the Bible"

"Redeeming the Time By Using the App to Enjoy the Ministry"

"Becoming the Church in Our Locality through These books"

"A Deep Impression On a Scholarly Family"

"The Traditional Concept Being Changed through the Life studies"

"The Benefits of Having Ministry Books in the Home"

"The Ministry Books Revealing to Us What the Church Really Is"
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:35 AM   #126
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These videos, websites, and letters show the real condition of the LC. The LC is the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:51 AM   #127
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These videos, websites, and letters show the real condition of the LC. The LC is the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books.
All in all, it is hard to understand how people in the LC don't see through these kinds of promotions, or the condition that it is indicative of.

What I find more concerning, however, is knowing what kind of problem they are creating for LC members when they encourage they to promote the LSM books with what they call "proper aggression." That is bound to backfire sooner or later. For example, one of their outlines on that website tells members to suggestively place ministry books around their home in "convenient locations" in hopes that family members or guests will read the books.

I've seen these types of subtle attempts they use to pressure LC members. It's what most people would call passive-aggressive behavior. For example, I was just telling someone recently about how in the city I'm from, the elders used to sign people up for conferences without asking them, and then tell them that they have been signed up already and need to attend.

That's the same type of tactic as it seems they are promoting here - trying to pressure people without asking them a question directly, which would allow for a yes/no response.
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Old 06-17-2017, 11:53 PM   #128
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"The Ministry Book that Stopped Me from Arguing with Brother Lee"
That book would not be Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.
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Old 06-18-2017, 12:00 AM   #129
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What I find more concerning, however, is knowing what kind of problem they are creating for LC members when they encourage they to promote the LSM books with what they call "proper aggression." That is bound to backfire sooner or later. For example, one of their outlines on that website tells members to suggestively place ministry books around their home in "convenient locations" in hopes that family members or guests will read the books.
When it's located on the same bookshelf as an Encyclopedia or the Bible, it is an Encyclopedia or the Bible that will be read before a ministry book would. All the word-smithing utilized to try to make LSM publications unique and distinct only results in a fast tract to irrelevance.
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Old 06-18-2017, 06:53 PM   #130
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When it's located on the same bookshelf as an Encyclopedia or the Bible, it is an Encyclopedia or the Bible that will be read before a ministry book would. All the word-smithing utilized to try to make LSM publications unique and distinct only results in a fast tract to irrelevance.
LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.

Anyways, if the LSM is so intent on selling books, maybe they should learn from Dong Yu Lan and start opening BooKafes
https://christianbookshopsblog.org.u...pcafe-culture/
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Old 06-18-2017, 07:08 PM   #131
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LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.
We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.
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Old 06-20-2017, 12:41 PM   #132
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LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.
I suspect many of the newer books have their content taken from earlier publications only to make it appear "this is new". As it is much of the online content is diluted from it's original form.
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Old 06-20-2017, 06:24 PM   #133
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We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.
Ohio,

This doesn't say much for Lee being the "Minister of the Age", does it? Perhaps Lee's "age" is OVER? Lee's ministry ended with his death. All that's left is recycled and repackaged books...like eating Hamburger Helper every meal.

However, Martin Luther's contribution, justification by faith, is ageless and timeless. Lee's contribution is ... not.

Nell
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Old 06-20-2017, 08:45 PM   #134
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Ohio,

This doesn't say much for Lee being the "Minister of the Age", does it? Perhaps Lee's "age" is OVER? Lee's ministry ended with his death. All that's left is recycled and repackaged books...like eating Hamburger Helper every meal.

Nell
There was a time when I lived on Hamburger Helper....

Definitely tasted better than repackaged Lee.

Please retract your negative comments!
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:26 PM   #135
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There was a time when I lived on Hamburger Helper....

Definitely tasted better than repackaged Lee.

Please retract your negative comments!
OK. You have a point. Hamburger Helper does taste better.
Oh right...I forgot. Don't say anything negative. Are you sure that applies to Hamburger Helper?

How long do i have to retract before I get banned?
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Old Today, 08:47 AM   #136
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I suspect many of the newer books have their content taken from earlier publications only to make it appear "this is new". As it is much of the online content is diluted from it's original form.
When the LSM releases 'new' books, everyone can rest assured that it is nothing new.

I noticed that in the advertising for the CWWL they say that a significant portion of the material is previously unreleased. That may very well be true. But there is a big thing people forget about WL. He wasn't an author. He didn't write much of anything. He spoke messages. Lots of them.

Messages are delivered to audiences, and the content of a spoken message is not usually considered to have a long term applicability. It is spoken in the here and now. So what the LSM is actually releasing is a bunch of content that has a highly questionable applicability and relevance.
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