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Old 06-05-2017, 09:10 PM   #1
Bradley
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Question Outer Darkness?

Hey guys,

So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe.

Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers?

This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter.

Thanks
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:44 PM   #2
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Hey Bradley, when I read your post in the other thread, you mentioned that you are "in the world" - that you listen to worldly music and go to pub...my dear brother, there is nothing wrong with these acts and I personally think you are under the bondage of legalism which is common for many LC Members. For me it took also awhile to finally see the legalistic bondage I had after leaving LC. It takes time. But our God is full of grace.

I'm not sure about what you mean by "1000year of outer darkness". I do know that LC believes in a future 1000-year millienial kingdom and according to them only "the overcomers" will enter into it. But I never knew they said something like the ones who are not overcomers will be sent into darkness.

I personally am a strong amillennialist and as much as I admire Nee, his continuing partial rapture theory is also absurd to me. These however are not dividing issues but do remember that anyone who is in Christ, who partakes in Christ, is an overcomer. We all share His victory and the fear you have is absolutely not a fruit of the Spirit...!


I hope you will be set free from this fear. Legalism breeds fear and guilt but our Lord gives life and freedom.
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Old 06-05-2017, 11:22 PM   #3
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I hope you're right, Fuji!

The LC teaches that all the defeated believers, i.e. the 5 foolish virgins from Matt 25, will miss out on the millennial kingdom and will be cast out into 'outer darkness' for 1000 years where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It has always struck me as somewhat harsh, like salvation doesn't really help that much if I still have to worry about this 'damnation lite' for being a bad Christian.

When I go to the pub I'm still the nice guy I am everywhere else, right? I'd like to agree with you about that because I'm not being particularly horrible to anyone at the pub. I'm just in a certain location. I'd love to be able to just believe it's okay but the paranoia that maybe I'm just lying to myself is still there. As a result it's easier to just not think about it and not pray. That doesn't help my relationship with the Lord though.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:35 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Bradley View Post
Hey guys,

So having only just recently come to grips with the fact that the ministry isn't what I thought it was and the churches are not God's unique flow on the earth, I'm confused as to what I should believe.

Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers?

This was one of my fears about leaving the church for a long time. It'd be nice to get clear on this matter.

Thanks
Hi Bradley,

LSM has defined "defeated believers" to be all those in denominations, all those in so-called free groups, all those who leave the LC's, all those who are in LC's but not under LSM's control, all those who do not attend the FTT's, all those in the LC but don't function, etc. etc.

Did I miss anybody?

Exclusive sects like TLR thrive on fear-mongering. They peddle it like the politicians do. Unfortunately, it will take you some time for you to "purge out the old leaven." Yes, there are truths buried beneath LC teachings, but since they remain buried, they are like unsprouted seeds in legalistic soils spoiled by the toxins and pollutants of Lee's relgious system.

I encourage you to spend time getting reaquainted with Jesus and His word. Read the gospels. Build upon the relationship you had when you first met Jesus. He knows you, and He knows what you have been thru. The haunting fear of outer darkness does little to guide one's journey. I encourage you to spend time with the Lord discussing your life, both the failures and the positives. When I was passing thru a valley of the shadow of death similar to yours, I found reading slowly thru the Proverbs was helpful. Ask Him to introduce you to new friends. When you read, try to clear your mind of doctrines, and focus on the verse in front of you. Just you and Jesus and His words on the page. Inquire of Him for something new. Humble yourself to ask. Confess failures without blaming others. This is what I would call the real pray-reading, and provides the real healing of our soul.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:12 AM   #5
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...I encourage you to spend time getting reaquainted with Jesus and His word. Read the gospels. Build upon the relationship you had when you first met Jesus. He knows you, and He knows what you have been thru. The haunting fear of outer darkness does little to guide one's journey. I encourage you to spend time with the Lord discussing your life, both the failures and the positives. When I was passing thru a valley of the shadow of death similar to yours, I found reading slowly thru the Proverbs was helpful. Ask Him to introduce you to new friends. When you read, try to clear your mind of doctrines, and focus on the verse in front of you. Just you and Jesus and His words on the page. Inquire of Him for something new. Humble yourself to ask. Confess failures without blaming others. This is what I would call the real pray-reading, and provides the real healing of our soul.
Well said, Ohio. I would add, get a new Bible...one without Lee's footnotes. I have an NIV I like to read, but for looking things up, I go to the BibleGateway website and search in the KJV because that's what I grew up reading. A wise person told me once to "read the Bible like it was a book." Just read it. That really helped!

When I left "it" I had fear also. One Bible search you might start with is the words "fear not."

Before I left, I prayed "Lord, please don't let go of me." He never has.

I also determined that I would no longer believe ANYTHING Witness Lee said. NOTHING. I believed THE BIBLE. ONLY the Bible. If Lee happened to line up with Scripture, so be it, but I don't believe it because Lee said it. I believe it because God said it.

I would encourage you not to look for a church. I know. Strange. Instead, look for God's people. Close your eyes to names on the doors, to doctrines, to teachings and organizations. However, if something doesn't sound right to you, it probably isn't. Don't ignore such a warning. We did this and got into troubls.

As you visit places, look for Christians who love Jesus and are seeking Him. Look for Christians who love one another. Keep your eyes open. If you do this...surely the church will find you.

Blessings to you Bradley and Fuji.

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Old 06-06-2017, 08:37 AM   #6
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I would add on to Nell's remarks that you should never just rely on what quickly comes to you are being simply right or being a problem. The longer you were part of the LRC, the more that you first impression will tend to align with its teachings without thinking about it. You will gravitate to its meanings for words. You will presume that the things they thought were bad really are.

If you find yourself in some regular Christian church, you will have a reaction to a choir song, or an electric guitar and drums. Or you will first think you should refrain from taking one of the broken crackers or little-bitty juice cups for communion. And you will recoil at the use of the term "communion."

None of these things are bad. None of them are spiritually deficient. But we got trained that they are. You will have a sort of withdrawal effect when someone triggers one of those things.

But while I do not put much stock in what Lee said about it, there is a reference or two to "outer darkness" in the gospels. And depending on how you read certain parables, there is a question on the simplistic "once saved always saved" doctrine. And it might be about something other than salvation, but rather related to sanctification. But it is not clear. So my tendency is say that "whoever believes," not whoever believed, "shall not perish . . . ." Not sure what that means. It just raises questions.

But I can almost assure you that the things that are touted by the LRC as the ways to avoid outer darkness, the little dark room, or whatever terminology is wanted to be put on this alternate purgatory, are not it, there is some question as to what those verses mean. Those that dismiss it entirely are following a dogma just as much as those who follow Lee's teachings.

The real issue is that no matter how you read it, the answer is in believing (not just having believed), following, and obeying. And that last one more than any other is generally panned by the LRC. They despise obedience. They reject anything that could appear to be from the flesh as if the appearance makes it so. Be moving forward. Not stagnant or in retreat.

And as for whatever those outer darkness for 1,000 years may mean, even if they are actually something like Lee taught, it is not eternity. Allow it to spur you forward. Do not let it freeze you with fear. Do not let it be the reason that you just chuck it all.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:52 AM   #7
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Well said, Ohio. I would add, get a new Bible...one without Lee's footnotes. I have an NIV I like to read ...
Great suggestions, Nell.

I like the WEB -- World English Bible -- similar structure to what we were used to. It seems to "fit." But I have other Bibles depending on whom I am with. I have grown to love the diversity which different versions provide. I got saved reading a paraphrased version called the "Greatest is Love," so I know there is no "perfect" translation.

Leaving the LC system, especially for the FTT's, is so similar to the early disciples leaving Judaism. Read the Gospel of John again and again. Don't think these young disciples did not have fears leaving the Synagogues and being shunned by old friends and family. It was scary at times! Think about it. Judaism supposedly was God's best. They daily heard how blessed they were compared to those evil (denomi)nations. Their lives revolved around the local Synagogue. They left a highly structured legalistic system, mostly bankrupt of real love, which basically decided much of their life for them. They "love" you if you stay, but no more "love" for those who leave.

Once Jesus came along, the disciples left their little circle of family and friends, starting a new adventure. Fears and warnings and condemnations, from within and without, daily surrounded them. Oh sure there were exciting times with Jesus healing the sick and shaming the hypocrites, but often their days ahead appeared quite ominous. Change was constant, which is frightening in its own right. Many couldn't handle it. Not an easy journey. They knew something was so special about Jesus, yet opposing voices, inside and outside, were everywhere.

Little is said in the Gospels, but I believe that Jesus spent some private and personal time with each of His disciples. He was preparing them to one day walk by His Spirit, the same journey each of God's children were required to make. It was to walk by faith, to walk by what is beyond even what we can see, or feel, or hear, or know. The same walk as father Abraham and the rest of the household of faith. Hebrews 11 shows us some of those, with both the glory and the hardships they encountered. But today everyone of them, without exception, would tell us it was all worthwhile. Even the martyrs would say they wouldn't trade their lives for the world.
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:41 PM   #8
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I love Ohio's post too!

2 featured posts?
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:17 PM   #9
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One of the things you'll find, Bradley, is during this time of separation from the LC the Devil will really try to accuse you and scare you. Fear of "outer darkness" is one of the things he will use against you.

It is not that we don't need to respect that the Lord requires things of us, or may even discipline us when we are judged. It is that the LCM-specific fears should be ignored and you should limit your concern to whether you are obeying the basic commandments to Christians. Are you loving, forgiving, honest, fair? Do you seek to live to God's glory?

Whether you attend the LC meetings, or are in "the Recovery" or read Witness Lee's ministry are not part of that deal. So don't worry about those.

So there is a balance. Yes, God expects us to live obedient lives, but no he doesn't expect us to live them out in Witness Lee's movement or according to Lee's proprietary vision.

God loves you. Find a simple, straightforward, non-weird church that does not try to control you. Keep it simple and stay positive.

My favorite Bible right now is the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). It's written with a very limited vocabulary, I think about a fifth-grade level. It's great for kids, but I think it does a great job of conveying the essential meaning with minimal confusion. I use it for my daily reading.
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Old 06-06-2017, 04:33 PM   #10
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Many Christians believe in hell for eternity for defeated Christians (they interpret outer darkness as hell not as literal darkness)..consider the 1000 year idea as a blessing. Its purpose is not punishment but training. Its a blessing that God puts us through training not hellfire.

But if Lee is wrong and outer darkness means eternal damnation then there is a lot more to worry.
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Old 06-06-2017, 06:08 PM   #11
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If Lee is wrong...
This was one of the appeals about the recovery, having a solid interpretation of scripture that we all agree on so you can be confident that's what it means. Now its like I'm on my own again.

I suppose thats for the best because I have to actually study the word carefully, instead of just taking someone's word for it!
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:39 PM   #12
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This was one of the appeals about the recovery, having a solid interpretation of scripture that we all agree on so you can be confident that's what it means. Now its like I'm on my own again.

I suppose thats for the best because I have to actually study the word carefully, instead of just taking someone's word for it!
The idea of Lee having a solid interpretation of scripture is just a myth. They may say Lee was using the Bible to interpret the Bible. But if you dig deep enough, you will find it is not the case.

Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

Personally, I am inclined more to the view that Christians can fall from grace or leave their faith (or may be they think they believe in God but are actually not). And this will have consequences. Otherwise, a large part of the NT epistles would be unnecessary because those chapters were to teach the believers what not to do.

May be the more important question to ask is whether we truly want to live a life that is pleasing to God and are committed to seek and act in this direction, trusting He will lead us along the path and will judge us appropriately in the end.
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Old 06-07-2017, 12:27 AM   #13
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The idea of Lee having a solid interpretation of scripture is just a myth.
Yes I know this, I was merely saying that the false sense of security thinking that you know the correct interpretation was nice, comfortable. But now I have no such security - because I realise Lee's faults.

I'm more of the 'can't lose salvation' camp also. You can lose fellowship with the Lord and His good pleasure, but even if you're a naughty son who needs discipline, you're still family.
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Old 06-07-2017, 02:45 AM   #14
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. . . even if you're a naughty son who needs discipline, you're still family.
The failure of the gospel of Lee was that it made us introspective & more subjective than we already were. It became the 'gospel of me'. We'd ask ourselves, "Am I going to make it", i.e. achieve the 'kingdom reward' and avoid the 1,ooo-year 'outer darkness'. I believe this is just a house of mirrors. The more we'd look at ourselves, and measure ourselves, and consider ourselves, the more dis-oriented we'd become.

The gospel, the Bible, is about one lonely little man. One pious Jew. His family abandoned him. His disciples fled - the shepherd was struck and the sheep scattered. Those who remained jeered at him, "He trusted in God; let Him (the Father) save him (the Christ) now."

Christ lost everything. But as the scripture says, he trusted in God, and endured to the end; never losing his faith, his hope, or his love. It is his faith that now wells up within us, his hope and his love. It is his holy spirit that now gives us life and propels us forward to the prize of the high calling.

Any way I babble too much. As you can see it's a bad habit with me.
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Old 06-07-2017, 02:53 AM   #15
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It may interest some, that Luther believed in purgatory, throughout the Reformation.

In Defense and Explanation on All the Articles (1521), Luther wrote:

The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted many times, though I have found no way of proving it incontrovertibly from Scripture or reason. I find in Scripture that Christ, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Job, David, Hezekiah, and some others tasted hell in this life. This I think was purgatory... in short, I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result.
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Old 06-07-2017, 06:48 AM   #16
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Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.
The scripture provides much justification for purging / outer darkness / purgatory whatever you may call it. This does not mean we will perish, and it does not mean we will be judged for our sin. Rather the judgment seat of Christ (before the Millennium in contrast with the judgment of sinners afterwards) will reward or punish us based on our works.
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Old 06-07-2017, 07:50 AM   #17
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The scripture provides much justification for purging / outer darkness / purgatory whatever you may call it. This does not mean we will perish, and it does not mean we will be judged for our sin. Rather the judgment seat of Christ (before the Millennium in contrast with the judgment of sinners afterwards) will reward or punish us based on our works.
I understand the justification of the outer darkness. Just that I couldn't find much information on what will happen afterwards. Will those being punished during the Millennium be restored to glory with the other believers?

It is easier to find verses saying it would be worse if believers turn their backs on Christ, for example,

2Pe 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
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Old 06-07-2017, 08:38 AM   #18
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I understand the justification of the outer darkness. Just that I couldn't find much information on what will happen afterwards. Will those being punished during the Millennium be restored to glory with the other believers?

It is easier to find verses saying it would be worse if believers turn their backs on Christ, for example,

2Pe 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
We are all responsible for what we know and how much we have been given. Those ones in these verses may have been believers, even ministers and teachers, born of the Spirit, and if so they will not perish for eternity. They also may be severely chastened by the Lord, however, especially for the damage they have caused to others. And this is the difficulty we face understanding scripture. Salvation in the Bible is far more complex than merely going to heaven or hell. Can one can "lose" his salvation temporarily due to His discipline and thus lose blessings, promises, rewards, and joy while being disciplined? I believe some will be rewarded for some of their works, yet still be disciplined "yet so as thru fire."

My personal feeling is that how much time and how severely we are disciplined depends on us. God's many children are an incredibly diverse lot, from those like Paul who were assured of promised rewards to some naughty prodigals who want nothing to do with God. There is no way to know the future of each one individually, since each will be treated separately by his/her own Master, but I believe in the end, in eternity, all believers will enter into glory with Him. After all is said and done, I believe we all will confess that our Lord is true, He is fair, and how irreproachable and inscrutable are His judgments, for out of Him and through Him, and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever, Amen!
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Old 06-07-2017, 09:03 AM   #19
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It may interest some, that Luther believed in purgatory, throughout the Reformation.

In Defense and Explanation on All the Articles (1521), Luther wrote:

The existence of a purgatory I have never denied. I still hold that it exists, as I have written and admitted many times, though I have found no way of proving it incontrovertibly from Scripture or reason. I find in Scripture that Christ, Abraham, Jacob, Moses, Job, David, Hezekiah, and some others tasted hell in this life. This I think was purgatory... in short, I myself have come to the conclusion that there is a purgatory, but I cannot force anybody else to come to the same result.

Please restrict your comments on this topic to Outer Darkness. If you wish to discuss purgatory, please do so by starting another thread.

Thank you--
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Old 06-07-2017, 09:23 AM   #20
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We are all responsible for what we know and how much we have been given. Those ones in these verses may have been believers, even ministers and teachers, born of the Spirit, and if so they will not perish for eternity. They also may be severely chastened by the Lord, however, especially for the damage they have caused to others. And this is the difficulty we face understanding scripture. Salvation in the Bible is far more complex than merely going to heaven or hell. Can one can "lose" his salvation temporarily due to His discipline and thus lose blessings, promises, rewards, and joy while being disciplined? I believe some will be rewarded for some of their works, yet still be disciplined "yet so as thru fire."

My personal feeling is that how much time and how severely we are disciplined depends on us. God's many children are an incredibly diverse lot, from those like Paul who were assured of promised rewards to some naughty prodigals who want nothing to do with God. There is no way to know the future of each one individually, since each will be treated separately by his/her own Master, but I believe in the end, in eternity, all believers will enter into glory with Him. After all is said and done, I believe we all will confess that our Lord is true, He is fair, and how irreproachable and inscrutable are His judgments, for out of Him and through Him, and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever, Amen!
Again, Ohio. Well said.

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Old 06-07-2017, 09:33 AM   #21
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It may interest some, that Luther believed in purgatory, throughout the Reformation.
It may interest you that Luther's goal was not to leave the RCC, but to reform it (and only a little, at that). And he did not think that RCC members were not Christian, but only that they failed to have surety about it.

And it may further interest you that the Lutheran church, at least in Luther's time, was only removed from the RCC by lack of association and a very few small doctrinal differences. Pretty much the same as the RCC in almost every way. Not much different from what the Anglicans did.
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Old 06-07-2017, 10:52 AM   #22
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Purgatory is the RCC equivalent of outer darkness. Purgatory also has scriptural basis in I Cor 3.13-15:
Quote:
their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
"Saved yet thru fire" defines purgatory. Of course, I have studied enough of RCC history to know how they used this verse and others to plunge the western world into the dark ages, robbing nations of all their wealth. But still, the verse stands, and it speaks to Christians, and not unbelievers.
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:08 PM   #23
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Anyway, back to discussion on outer darkness. Evangelical said most Christians believe the idea of hell for defeated Christians. But I believe more are into "once saved, always saved". The outer darkness idea is not a gernerally accepted view and could be an effort trying to balance between grace and judgement, God's love and righteousness.

Personally, I am inclined more to the view that Christians can fall from grace or leave their faith (or may be they think they believe in God but are actually not). And this will have consequences. Otherwise, a large part of the NT epistles would be unnecessary because those chapters were to teach the believers what not to do
When I was in LC, in some conferences/ training that I went, there was some continuous mocking of Calvinism (even though I'm not a fan of it I don't like their mocking tone) and it's funny because at the same time many of them hold and insist the belief of"once saved always saved" and even more so double predestination, which is the common belief of many calvinists today.

I believe one reason of the epistles constantly telling believers what not do to is to encourage us not to fall back and also, to know that these are the fruits that are only capable to be produced as a result of living by the Spirit, since we all , despite being saved, often still live in the flesh.

I agree greatly that our primary job is to ask the Lord to give us a pure heart that wants to please Him and Him only, now we can only see dimly. When we desire Him only everything will come naturally and we shouldn't be suffering from condemnation as that described by brother Bradley. I hope we go on to use this forum to build each other up and restore one another in His love
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:45 PM   #24
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...many of them hold and insist the belief of 'once saved always saved'
Yeah WL teaches it in the book 'the Joy, Assurance and Security of Salvation'.

The 'constant mocking' you mention - I'm guilty of that too. There's a real culture of ridiculing other Christians in 'Babylon', and everyone does it in the LC so its easy to slip into. Not that that's an excuse. I knew in doctrine that we were Laodicea and not Philadelphia but now its really a deep truth for me.
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:45 PM   #25
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Please restrict your comments on this topic to Outer Darkness. If you wish to discuss purgatory, please do so by starting another thread.

Thank you--
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Its basically the same thing Nell. As Ohio has indicated. So I believe I am on topic.

If we want to include Catholics as Christians..then most Christians believe in some sort of intermediate between earth and heaven. Osas believers are a minority when considering that the largest denominations..catholic ortgodox anglican reject it.
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Old 06-07-2017, 03:49 PM   #26
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We are all responsible for what we know and how much we have been given. Those ones in these verses may have been believers, even ministers and teachers, born of the Spirit, and if so they will not perish for eternity. They also may be severely chastened by the Lord, however, especially for the damage they have caused to others. And this is the difficulty we face understanding scripture. Salvation in the Bible is far more complex than merely going to heaven or hell. Can one can "lose" his salvation temporarily due to His discipline and thus lose blessings, promises, rewards, and joy while being disciplined? I believe some will be rewarded for some of their works, yet still be disciplined "yet so as thru fire."

My personal feeling is that how much time and how severely we are disciplined depends on us. God's many children are an incredibly diverse lot, from those like Paul who were assured of promised rewards to some naughty prodigals who want nothing to do with God. There is no way to know the future of each one individually, since each will be treated separately by his/her own Master, but I believe in the end, in eternity, all believers will enter into glory with Him. After all is said and done, I believe we all will confess that our Lord is true, He is fair, and how irreproachable and inscrutable are His judgments, for out of Him and through Him, and to Him are all things, to Him be the glory forever, Amen!

A classical Lee interpretation...no i should not say that..its not his view its the bibles. Good stuff. Not just Lee..many non osas people believe in Gods chastisement in the next life.
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Old 06-07-2017, 04:49 PM   #27
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A classical Lee interpretation...no i should not say that..its not his view its the bibles. Good stuff. Not just Lee..many non osas people believe in Gods chastisement in the next life.
Stolen from Robert Govett and David Panton.

Many thanks to brother Lewis Schoettle Publishing.
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Old 06-08-2017, 05:48 AM   #28
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A classical Lee interpretation...no i should not say that..its not his view its the bibles. Good stuff. Not just Lee..many non osas people believe in Gods chastisement in the next life.
If we are saved by faith through His grace, then what do you say about those who apparently were born again in their youth, yet spent their life rejecting faith, refusing to believe in the cross of Christ, and rebutting the words of scripture? One notable false teacher in academia comes to mind. How can God now justify them when they refuse to believe?
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Old 06-08-2017, 04:41 PM   #29
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If we are saved by faith through His grace, then what do you say about those who apparently were born again in their youth, yet spent their life rejecting faith, refusing to believe in the cross of Christ, and rebutting the words of scripture? One notable false teacher in academia comes to mind. How can God now justify them when they refuse to believe?
Osas is a false doctrine i believe. If Judas Iscariot a believer and disciple went to hell. Then any believer can.

What does not make sense to me is if Lee intended the outer darkness doctrine to keep people in the recovery out of fear..then why not just reject osas altogether or say that outer darkness is hell. Why not just say that if you leave the revovery you will go to hell. This suggests to me the doctrine was never designed to keep people in the recovery out of fear.
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Old 06-08-2017, 06:23 PM   #30
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Osas is a false doctrine i believe. If Judas Iscariot a believer and disciple went to hell. Then any believer can.

What does not make sense to me is if Lee intended the outer darkness doctrine to keep people in the recovery out of fear..then why not just reject osas altogether or say that outer darkness is hell. Why not just say that if you leave the revovery you will go to hell. This suggests to me the doctrine was never designed to keep people in the recovery out of fear.
I don't think Lee rejected osas. He did not use outer darkness to keep people in the recovery out of fear. He used "overcomer" to lure people into the recovery out of self-righteousness. Fearing God was probably not his concern given he knew God's economy so well and was acting so diligently to help complete God's economy.
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:36 PM   #31
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I don't think Lee rejected osas. He did not use outer darkness to keep people in the recovery out of fear. He used "overcomer" to lure people into the recovery out of self-righteousness. Fearing God was probably not his concern given he knew God's economy so well and was acting so diligently to help complete God's economy.
Is Christ asking us to be self-righteous here?:
Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne"
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Old 06-08-2017, 07:53 PM   #32
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Is Christ asking us to be self-righteous here?:
Revelation 3:21 "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne"
The point is, God is the only judge to deteremine who are the overcomers.

I often heard brothers and sisters saying they want to be an overcomers as if this is the driving force on how they act. I cannot say this is totally wrong but they may be missing the target.

I strongly believe the true overcomers are those who don't care about whether they themselves would be an overcomer. They simply love and fear God, and care more about how to humbly serve Him and His people.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:02 PM   #33
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The point is, God is the only judge to deteremine who are the overcomers.

I often heard brothers and sisters saying they want to be an overcomers as if this is the driving force on how they act. I cannot say this is totally wrong but they may be missing the target.

I strongly believe the true overcomers are those who don't care about whether they themselves would be an overcomer. They simply love and fear God, and care more about how to humbly serve Him and His people.
The way to be an overcomer is to not try?
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:13 PM   #34
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The way to be an overcomer is to not try?
Sorry if I didn't express it simple enough for you to understand.

We don't try to be an overcomer. We try to please God.
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:29 PM   #35
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Sorry if I didn't express it simple enough for you to understand.

We don't try to be an overcomer. We try to please God.
We try to please God by being an overcomer.

We please God by
a) not trying to be an overcomer? or
b) trying to be an overcomer?
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Old 06-08-2017, 08:42 PM   #36
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We try to please God by being an overcomer.

We please God by
a) not trying to be an overcomer? or
b) trying to be an overcomer?
Do you purposely try to misunderstand every other poster?
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:02 PM   #37
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The point is, God is the only judge to deteremine who are the overcomers.

I often heard brothers and sisters saying they want to be an overcomers as if this is the driving force on how they act. I cannot say this is totally wrong but they may be missing the target.

I strongly believe the true overcomers are those who don't care about whether they themselves would be an overcomer. They simply love and fear God, and care more about how to humbly serve Him and His people.
i absolutely agree with you. I think we Christians need to STOP putting ourselves in place of God to decide who is "in" the church and who is "not. Similarly, we need to stop taking His place to judge who is an "overcomer" and who is not. In my own opinion there are two sides, everyone who has been saved has overcome already. But we also need to partake of His victory continuously. It's like we have been saved already but still need to "work out" our salvation daily.I believe this view doesn't contradict with Lee's and Nee's however I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy.

That's how I felt too when I was in LC. I was under heavy loads of legalism I didn't know. I constantly suffer from questioning myself ,"am I 'out'? Or am I 'in'" and often times I Feel like I need to squeeze harder to be in the LC circle. My journey in LC began with growing in the Spirit into trying hard with my effort to please the LC system and people.

When we solely focus on Christ, everything will come. There will be fruit bearing. There is no trying to overcome (I'm talking about trying in terms of human effort). Of course we need to cooperate with Him (in LC language) and follow His voice, to keep in step with the Spirit , but it is a result springing from within as a result of us loving and desiring the Lord. Even Nee said so. It's an exchanged life. When we allow Christ to live in us, He will rule and reign and He will do it through us. In Nee's words, victory is obtained, not attained.
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:23 PM   #38
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We try to please God by being an overcomer.

We please God by
a) not trying to be an overcomer? or
b) trying to be an overcomer?
I assumie you are trying to sort things out using logic.

Let me put it this way, trying to be an overcomer is more about "me", trying to please God is more about "Him".

So will you choose (a) or (b)?
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Old 06-08-2017, 09:36 PM   #39
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I assumie you are trying to sort things out using logic.

Let me put it this way, trying to be an overcomer is more about "me", trying to please God is more about "Him".

So will you choose (a) or (b)?
It reminds me of Lee's teaching, that all we need to do is "eat the Lord" , everything else will be taken care of.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:01 PM   #40
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It reminds me of Lee's teaching, that all we need to do is "eat the Lord" , everything else will be taken care of.
No, this is different.

I was just saying we should set the target right. I didn't say we don't need to do anything.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:18 PM   #41
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Do you purposely try to misunderstand every other poster?
I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:

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This is hilarious given what you wrote a few posts ago and contains more "crapola" than anyone else has written. Straw-man's are part and parcel of this sort of discussion - grow up and get over it. I'm not asking for respect, I'm questioning ... .
This post was written to me awhile back on another thread. Click on the little blue arrow for more context. If you find yourself going round and round in circles with him, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

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Old 06-08-2017, 10:38 PM   #42
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I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:



This post was written to me. Follow the link for more context. If you find yourself chasing your tail, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell
The link is here:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5765

Put simply, I asked about why people were rejecting the "stock standard theological resources" I was using in that discussion to show they are not so different from Lee's interpretation of the Trinity.

Nell, replied in post #158 by saying most of my posts are crapola (his word, not mine). He seemed to misunderstand that I was not asking for respect, but wondering why not only Lee is rejected but also solid theological resources.

Strawman's on both sides are part and parcel of discussion on internet forums. It's a common debate tactic, and also used in politics, sport and many other arenas. That's being pragmatic, not disrespectful or intentional.
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Old 06-08-2017, 10:49 PM   #43
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No, this is different.

I was just saying we should set the target right. I didn't say we don't need to do anything.
Then your view is no doubt summarized by this absurd position you hold:

God wants us to be an overcomer but it's wrong to try to be one.
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Old 06-08-2017, 11:37 PM   #44
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Then your view is no doubt summarized by this absurd position you hold:

God wants us to be an overcomer but it's wrong to try to be one.
Didn't I say "I cannot say this is totally wrong" back in post #32?
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Old 06-09-2017, 02:06 AM   #45
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I doubt that Evangelical misunderstands. He knows exactly what he's doing. Why do I say this? In his own words:



This post was written to me awhile back on another thread. Click on the little blue arrow for more context. If you find yourself going round and round in circles with him, like the last few "E-posts", just remember that according to Evangelical, that's "part and parcel of this sort of discussion", and you should "grow up." (Mutual respect is not important to him.)

Nell
Nell,

Did you see EvanJelly's latest cop-out -- "all he needs to do is eat the Lord"?

Where have we heard that before?

And to show how carefully he pays attention, Jelly calls you a "he."
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Old 06-09-2017, 07:37 AM   #46
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Nell,

Did you see EvanJelly's latest cop-out -- "all he needs to do is eat the Lord"?

Where have we heard that before?

And to show how carefully he pays attention, Jelly calls you a "he."
Ohio,

I noticed. It looks to me like all that "eating" would have produced more fruit...well I guess it has, just not the kind of fruit you want.

It also seems to me that, as believers, on a Christian forum, (I've said this before) Evangelical should understand that we try to hold to a higher standard than your common Internet food-fight. "Strawman" arguments exist for one reason...OK two reasons...deceit and deflection. I believe most of the forum members post their position on a matter with honesty and integrity without subterfuge. Most believe that "strawman" arguments are not acceptable. Not to mention a waste of time and storage space on a server. The ol' "everybody does it...part and parcel" excuse is pathetic. It never worked on my parents.

Yeah...there was a point when E-man seemed to understand that I am a woman...like on the Woman of Chayil thread maybe??? Duh. As he said in his own words...he's not looking for respect...and with that attitude he's not likely to show much toward others...hence the strawman thing.

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

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Old 06-09-2017, 08:12 AM   #47
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Ohio,

I noticed. It looks to me like all that "eating" would have produced more fruit...well I guess it has, just not the kind of fruit you want.

It also seems to me that, as believers, on a Christian forum, (I've said this before) Evangelical should understand that we try to hold to a higher standard than your common Internet food-fight. "Strawman" arguments exist for one reason...OK two reasons...deceit and deflection. I believe most of the forum members post their position on a matter with honesty and integrity without subterfuge. Most believe that "strawman" arguments are not acceptable. Not to mention a waste of time and storage space on a server. The ol' "everybody does it...part and parcel" excuse is pathetic. It never worked on my parents.

Yeah...there was a point when E-man seemed to understand that I am a woman...like on the Woman of Chayil thread maybe??? Duh. As he said in his own words...he's not looking for respect...and with that attitude he's not likely to show much toward others...hence the strawman thing.

Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.

Nell
Nell, he is not looking for respect? Says a bunch about him.

Without respect, there is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no marriage, no church, no nothing. Without respect, we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate. I've seen many on the internet, even a few here, that appeared to have no respect for others.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.
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Old 06-09-2017, 08:19 AM   #48
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He is not looking for respect?

There is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no church, no nothing, without respect. Without respect we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.
Yup, Ohio. That's what he said. I guess that explains the ad hominems and deterioration. He has tried to explain, re-word, reshape, etc., but no apology, no repentance and most of all, no change in behavior.

Catherine Marshall said: "The first thing to take place in communication is respect. Without respect, communication does not take place." I think she's right.

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This is hilarious given what you wrote a few posts ago and contains more "crapola" than anyone else has written. Straw-man's are part and parcel of this sort of discussion - grow up and get over it. I'm not asking for respect, I'm questioning ... .
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Old 06-09-2017, 03:31 PM   #49
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Hopefully this will help new members get some perspective on ... things.
Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.
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Old 06-10-2017, 02:42 AM   #50
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Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

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Old 06-10-2017, 04:06 AM   #51
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Fuji )"I absolutely disagree with Lee's outer darkness thingy"

Ok, but what are you for?

The outer darkness is....?

Drake
Dear Brother Drake,

Thanks for your question. I said earlier in the second post of this thread (way before it went off topic) that I don't believe there is a future millennial kingdom( I believe there are only two age, and we are waiting for the age to come, and the 1000 year now as in Rev 20 - we are experiencing now as we are kings and priests, Satan is bound because Christ is building His church now and the gate of Hades has no way to prevail it, yes he will be realease one last time yet it's said that he is immediately defeated into second death and has no victory) BUT as I said this is just my view, and who am I ? So this is NOT a dividing issue, and I don't at all like to debate. I'm for CHRIST and I may be wrong.

*BUT* even if there is a millennial kingdom coming soon, I don't believe in Lee's idea of "outer darkness", as described by Bradley and others who have posted here (which is the original topic here), I believe all who are in Christ will enter into kingdom as I believe everyone who partakes of Christ is an overcomer and no one today should be living in fear and condemnation thinking that they have not obtained victory (as I said in Nee's words, victory is not attained by us but obtained already in and through Christ).

If I remember correctly, "outer darkness" in the Bible is for "godless men" and it contrasts with the wedding feast of the Lamb. I don't know much of the nature of it (or in other's words, the nature of hell), but outer darkness signifies a separation from God, which was the first sin of Adam and Eve - wanting to live independently from God (Nee and Lee is heavy on this), in CS Lewis's words: There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened... I'm aware that Lewis believes in purgatory but that's a whole different topic. But yes, I lean closer to believing that the "outer darkness" is what some call hell because it's a separation from God. And then perhaps some will argue" but hell is the lake of fire and there is light....so it's not darkness..." but I don't believe we should take all these "literally" --- God throughout the Bible is always using various images, symbols to point to the same thing from different angles so that our finite mind can perhaps get a step closer to His infinite mind. It's like, how can He be a lamb but at the same time a lion. But paradox points us to Him!

And so it seems to me Lee's outer darkness contradicts directly to his constant emphasis of once saved always saved. At least during the past years I was in LC, this doctrine was taught all the time I think that's why in LC, with this contradiction, some like Bradley have doubts about their victory or even salvation in Christ. You may not have experienced it but it's not uncommon with former LC members or my current LC friend to suffer from this doubt. It's a heavy burden but His burden is light. He's the author and finisher of faith. My God is not a God that breeds guilt. Godly grief, yes, but not guilt. God doesn't breed a "second-class" Christian. He gives life and peace. And I believe we are all equal before the Lord in terms of standing.

Of course I can be wrong as always but like you asked what am I for? I'm for Christ and who am I? Who can give counsel to the One who knows all things? I hope all I do is to fix my eyes on Him and that I'll continue to learn from you all. I'd rather let it go than to debate. And like a little brother said earlier, I don't think it's our job to take seat of judgment to decide who is an overcomer or who is not. Thanks so much for reading.

There's also an older thread that was about this topic: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5079
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:54 PM   #52
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Nell, Thanks. He is indeed quite different from the other brothers and sisters I know in the LC.
You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:57 PM   #53
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Nell, he is not looking for respect? Says a bunch about him.

Without respect, there is no humanity, no civilization, no families, no marriage, no church, no nothing. Without respect, we merely begin with ad hominems, and then rapidly deteriorate. I've seen many on the internet, even a few here, that appeared to have no respect for others.

My Mom used to preach that I don't have to like everyone all the time, but I have to respect everyone all the time. Having nine kids, she was forced to do lots of preaching.
Off topic!. Moderator!
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Old 06-10-2017, 03:58 PM   #54
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Yup, Ohio. That's what he said. I guess that explains the ad hominems and deterioration. He has tried to explain, re-word, reshape, etc., but no apology, no repentance and most of all, no change in behavior.

Catherine Marshall said: "The first thing to take place in communication is respect. Without respect, communication does not take place." I think she's right.

Nell
Yes we've seen no apology or change in behavior from you either, potty mouth Nell. I know you've been stewing over the threads from months ago where I totally destroyed that poorly written Google-book with arguments from NT Greek scholars, and you just took this opportunity to let all that hatred and anger out!
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Old 06-10-2017, 06:20 PM   #55
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TO Evangelical and All Forum Members:

I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologize to Evangelical for referring to some of his posts as "crapola". I regret this and recognize that it was conduct unbecoming. I ask for your forgiveness and hope you can forgive me for this mischaracterization of some your contributions to this Forum.

Blessings to you all, and peace--

Nell
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Old 06-10-2017, 07:17 PM   #56
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You are quite different as well from other brothers and sisters I know in the LC. Most in the LC are not in the Recovery with ulterior motives, as you are. You'd be a prime candidate for the outer darkness I'm sure.
Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?
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Old 06-10-2017, 10:05 PM   #57
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TO Evangelical and All Forum Members:

I would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologize to Evangelical for referring to some of his posts as "crapola". I regret this and recognize that it was conduct unbecoming. I ask for your forgiveness and hope you can forgive me for this mischaracterization of some your contributions to this Forum.

Blessings to you all, and peace--

Nell
Hi Nell and others,

I would also like to apologize for arguing and counter-arguing with you in a manner which is not appropriate for this forum. I hope you will forgive me for any distress and frustration my posts have caused. I have seriously considered my words over the past days and found them to be below standard. For that I should also thank you for pointing out the shortcomings in my approach and manner.

Sincerely,

Evangelical
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Old 06-11-2017, 03:58 PM   #58
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Evangelical, Thanks. Coming from you, it sounds almost like a blessing.

Your choice of words is quite different from the people I know in the LC. Are you truly a member of the LC?
Hi A little brother,

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.

I can see why someone might pretend to be part of the LC in order to sympathize and help LC members. But someone in my position on this forum who supports the "LC" when 99% of people on this forum don't, why would I pretend to be in it?
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:12 PM   #59
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Fuji) "Dear Brother Drake,

Thanks for your question. I said earlier in the second post of this thread (way before it went off topic) that I don't believe there is a future millennial kingdom( I believe there are only two age, and we are waiting for the age to come, and the 1000 year now as in Rev 20 - we are experiencing now as we are kings and priests, Satan is bound because Christ is building His church now and the gate of Hades has no way to prevail it, yes he will be realease one last time yet it's said that he is immediately defeated into second death and has no victory) BUT as I said this is just my view, and who am I ? So this is NOT a dividing issue, and I don't at all like to debate. I'm for CHRIST and I may be wrong. "

HI Fuji,

Thanks for your comprehensive reply. I will address each of your points. But last things first.

This is a discussion forum not a debate forum. 95% of the content would not pass as true debate, nor would the cadence of the interaction. There are some exceptions such as the interaction between Evangelical and OBW that resemble a true debate where points are addressed, deconstructed, and then counterpoint's are made. But even those breakdown. Still, a discussion forum like this one, allows for a more fluid train of thought. So let's have a discussion and maybe a little debate. Okay?

So now, the first thing you mentioned which I find puzzling is that Satan is bound at this time. This does not appear to be based in reality or supported by scripture. When I say not based in reality I mean that we can see death, destruction, disease, and all the effects of sin and depravity of the falls. Secondly, there's no scriptural evidence that Satan is not the ruler of this world, and this world, the cosmos, is very much under his rule and reign. Even the Lord Jesus makes the distinction when he says that we are in the world but not of the world. Also, he charges us not to love the world. Clearly, the Lord is building his church in the midst of the corrupted world of Satan. And that is why the church is the called out assembly.

Could you please address those two difficulties by explaining the obvious situation of the world we live in and by providing a scriptural justification for your view that Satan is currently bound and out of commission?

Thanks,
Drake
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:12 PM   #60
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Hi A little brother,

No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.
Evangelical, what is "the Recovery," and how does one join?
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Old 06-11-2017, 04:16 PM   #61
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Evangelical, what is "the Recovery," and how does one join?
Koinonia,

Can you post your question to Evangelical into an appropriate or new thread?

I'm not objecting to sidebar conversations which are a normal part of any human discussion but your question appears like an entirely different subject.

I hope we can get the conversation on this thread focused on the Outer Darkness subject.

Thanks,
Drake
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Old 06-11-2017, 07:58 PM   #62
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No I am not a member of the LC, but a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality. Your choice of words as "member of LC" suggests to me you are not part of the Recovery - LC people do not speak like that or consider the LC to be a denomination. They do not consider themselves a capital L C Local Church, and they don't consider themselves a "member of the LC" as you put it. They would say "we are not of the Local Church but are just the church in the locality". This to me raises suspicions that you are pretending to be in the "LC" with some ulterior motive.
I think you know exactly what my question was and I assume your answer was yes. Let me know if I were wrong. Sorry that I sometimes had problem understanding your posts. A simple "Yes" or "No" will surely make it easier for everybody.

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I can see why someone might pretend to be part of the LC in order to sympathize and help LC members. But someone in my position on this forum who supports the "LC" when 99% of people on this forum don't, why would I pretend to be in it?
Why would I know the reason that you might pretend? I explained my reason well when I asked the question on whether you are a member of the LC (Sorry, I still prefer to use this simpler form instead of the lengthy words of yours). It was that the way you behaved and the words you chose didn't seem to match the general behavioral standards of the LC people that I know.

I do not pretend to be a member of the LC. I am a member of the LC - I was baptized in the LC, I join Lord's Table meetings, I prophesy in the prophesying meetings, I join home meetings, I fellowship with LC brothers and sisters (also with others not meeting in the LC).

That doesn't mean I have to agree with all its teachings.

I do not fellowship in deceitful manner. I don't say Amen to teachings when I do not agree; I don't pray-read outlines; I don't practise "call upon the Lord's name n times"; I let others know I am studying not only LC materials but also "outside" teachings; I expressed my concerns with the "highest peak of the divine revelation";...

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters in the LC might be put to outer darkness not because they were blind, but because they say they see and consider themselves overcomers (John 9:41). And in my personal opinion, the outer darkness might not be something that ends after 1,000 years.

I don't want the LC ends up being the group of people described in Isaiah 66.

16 For with fire Jehovah will execute judgment, And with His sword, upon all flesh; And those slain by Jehovah will be many.
17 Those who sanctify and purify themselves for the gardens, Following after one in the midst, Eating swine's flesh And what is abominable and even mice, Will come to an end together, declares Jehovah.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:02 PM   #63
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Koinonia,

Can you post your question to Evangelical into an appropriate or new thread?

I'm not objecting to sidebar conversations which are a normal part of any human discussion but your question appears like an entirely different subject.

I hope we can get the conversation on this thread focused on the Outer Darkness subject.

Thanks,
Drake
Drake, I am appropriately addressing this: Evangelical is criticizing "A little brother" for using the phrase "member of the LC," while immediately himself using the phrase "part of the Recovery."
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:22 PM   #64
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I think you know exactly what my question was and I assume your answer was yes. Let me know if I were wrong. Sorry that I sometimes had problem understanding your posts. A simple "Yes" or "No" will surely make it easier for everybody.



Why would I know the reason that you might pretend? I explained my reason well when I asked the question on whether you are a member of the LC (Sorry, I still prefer to use this simpler form instead of the lengthy words of yours). It was that the way you behaved and the words you chose didn't seem to match the general behavioral standards of the LC people that I know.

I do not pretend to be a member of the LC. I am a member of the LC - I was baptized in the LC, I join Lord's Table meetings, I prophesy in the prophesying meetings, I join home meetings, I fellowship with LC brothers and sisters (also with others not meeting in the LC).

That doesn't mean I have to agree with all its teachings.

I do not fellowship with deceit. I don't say Amen to teachings when I do not agree; I don't pray-read outlines; I don't practise "call upon the Lord's name n times"; I let others know I am studying not only LC materials but also "outside" teachings; I expressed my concerns with the "highest peak of the divine revelation";...

I am concerned that some brothers and sisters in the LC might be put to outer darkness not because they were blind, but because they say they see and consider themselves overcomers (John 9:41). And in my personal opinion, the outer darkness might not be something that ends after 1,000 years.

I don't want the LC ends up being the group of people described in Isaiah 66.

16 For with fire Jehovah will execute judgment, And with His sword, upon all flesh; And those slain by Jehovah will be many.
17 Those who sanctify and purify themselves for the gardens, Following after one in the midst, Eating swine's flesh And what is abominable and even mice, Will come to an end together, declares Jehovah.
I am a little confused because you seem to believe the LC is a denomination and treat it as one. A local church member would not normally say "I am a member of the LC" and treat it as a denomination.

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

You will not find Witness Lee refer to us as the "Local Churches" either.

The "Local Church", or "Local Church Movement", or LCM, is how outsiders refer to us, not insiders.

Maybe Drake can help shed light on this, but the language you use and the way you refer to the local churches is different to what I am used to. Or if that is how other members of your church refer to themselves then perhaps your local church has become like a denomination.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:34 PM   #65
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I am a little confused because you seem to believe the LC is a denomination and treat it as one. A local church member would not normally say "I am a member of the LC".

The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.

You will not find Witness Lee refer to us as the "Local Churches" either.

The "Local Church", or "Local Church Movement", or LCM, is how outsiders refer to us, not insiders.

Let's get another opinion - Drake?
Please don't waste time on this useless argument. You know what I mean well. You don't need to speak for me. I have said it previously and I will say it again. The LC is not different from denomination.

I don't use the term "we are in the Lord's Recovery". I think this is bearing false witness.

I don't use the term "we are just the church in the locality" because other denominations are also part the church in the locaility. It is not specific to the group of people who only study Witness Lee's teachings.

Hope I have expressed my view clear enough. Please also be reminded that this thread is not about discussion of denominationalism.
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:36 PM   #66
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The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.
First, who is "we"?

Next--you cannot rightfully say, "we are the church in the locality." Even WL taught that all believers in a given location constitute the church in that location. Not "we."

Lastly, you are in effect a movement and denomination because--whatever you call yourselves--you are identified (by yourselves and others) as followers of Witness Lee. Otherwise, you would not exist as a "we."
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Old 06-11-2017, 08:57 PM   #67
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First, who is "we"?

Next--you cannot rightfully say, "we are the church in the locality." Even WL taught that all believers in a given location constitute the church in that location. Not "we."

Lastly, you are in effect a movement and denomination because--whatever you call yourselves--you are identified (by yourselves and others) as followers of Witness Lee. Otherwise, you would not exist as a "we."
That is right, all believers in the locality are the church in that location.That is why we reject denominations and do not consider ourselves to be a denomination.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:01 PM   #68
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That is right, all believers in the locality are the church in that location.That is why we reject denominations and do not consider ourselves to be a denomination.
Did you read what I wrote?
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:02 PM   #69
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Please don't waste time on this useless argument. You know what I mean well. You don't need to speak for me. I have said it previously and I will say it again. The LC is not different from denomination.

I don't use the term "we are in the Lord's Recovery". I think this is bearing false witness.

I don't use the term "we are just the church in the locality" because other denominations are also part the church in the locaility. It is not specific to the group of people who only study Witness Lee's teachings.

Hope I have expressed my view clear enough. Please also be reminded that this thread is not about discussion of denominationalism.
This is why I say you seem different from those in the local church that I know. A local church member would not normally say that denominations are part of the church in the locality or consider the local church to be "The Local Church" as another denomination.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:02 PM   #70
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Did you read what I wrote?
Yes I did, and I can say "we are the church in the locality" because that is what we are - I am in a church, in my locality, and together we are the church in the locality. We would never say "I am a member of the Local Church denomination" unless we weren't very far into the ministry.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:09 PM   #71
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A local church member would not normally say that denominations are part of the church in the locality...
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That is right, all believers in the locality are the church in that location.That is why we reject denominations and do not consider ourselves to be a denomination.
Don't you know how confused your mind is? Or is it simply your tactic to evade the more important truth you are afraid to admit?
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:26 PM   #72
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Don't you know how confused your mind is? Or is it simply your tactic to evade the more important truth you are afraid to admit?
Before you say I am confused...
You say you are in the local churches yet reject most of its teachings including Lees ministry. That sounds like a contradiction.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:37 PM   #73
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Before you say I am confused...
You say you are in the local churches yet reject most of its teachings including Lees ministry. That sounds like a contradiction.
Do you follow the teachings of men or follow God?

Are you saying we have to accept all Lee's teachings in order to be "a member of the Body of Christ in the local church of the locality"?
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:42 PM   #74
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Do you follow the teachings of men or follow God?

Are you saying we have to accept all Lee's teachings in order to be "a member of the Body of Christ in the local church in the locality"?
Nope.
Membership is by faith alone and we follow God.
The ministry helps us be the genuine church.
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:43 PM   #75
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Nope.
Membership is by faith alone and we follow God.
The ministry helps us be the genuine church.
So what is your conclusion? Am I a member or not a member?
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Old 06-11-2017, 09:51 PM   #76
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So what is your conclusion? Am I a member or not a member?
If you are a Christian then yes you are a member of the church in the locality. But you are not a member of the Local Church denomination because our membership is only in the Body not a denomination.
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Old 06-11-2017, 10:36 PM   #77
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If you are a Christian then yes you are a member of the church in the locality. But you are not a member of the Local Church denomination because our membership is only in the Body not a denomination.
If you see how many posts we had to go through before you received me as a member, you will find how legalistic the LC has become.

We have just wasted too much time on this and strayed from the more important concern about outer darkness.

And be careful with your answers, I almost think you have accepted there is such thing as "Local Church denomination".
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Old 06-11-2017, 11:21 PM   #78
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If you see how many posts we had to go through before you received me as a member, you will find how legalistic the LC has become.

We have just wasted too much time on this and strayed from the more important concern about outer darkness.

And be careful with your answers, I almost think you have accepted there is such thing as "Local Church denomination".
This is sort of related to the topic of outer darkness because Witness Lee taught that those in the denominations go into outer darkness. It is related to the first post "Is there still an outer darkness, the 1000 year 'summer school' for defeated believers? " I think the topic of "how do we join the Recovery" might be a bit further away from that however.

As a believer, I would always receive you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ. But when you identified yourself as a member of a denomination, I did not receive you because I do not recognize myself as having denominational membership.

It is as though Paul after his conversion would have gone to Peter in Jerusalem and said "dear Peter, I am from the church of Paul", and Peter would have said "what is that?". Peter would probably not have received him.

Anyway that is my perspective as a member of the local church (not Local Church). If there is a local church that considers itself a Local Church Denomination then I guess that would be a denomination!
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Old 06-12-2017, 12:39 AM   #79
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As a believer, I would always receive you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ. But when you identified yourself as a member of a denomination, I did not receive you because I do not recognize myself as having denominational membership.

It is as though Paul after his conversion would have gone to Peter in Jerusalem and said "dear Peter, I am from the church of Paul", and Peter would have said "what is that?". Peter would probably not have received him.

Anyway that is my perspective as a member of the local church (not Local Church). If there is a local church that considers itself a Local Church Denomination then I guess that would be a denomination!
You have managed to confuse me again. Do you receive or not receive a believer who thinks he has joined a denomination? Does he have to leave the denomination in order to be received by you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ?

If Paul had gone to Lee, I guess Paul would be kicked out of the door of the local church to the outer darkness without the chance of saying a word because of his Judaism practices, e.g. He circumcised Timothy, the son of a Greek.
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Old 06-12-2017, 01:07 AM   #80
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You have managed to confuse me again. Do you receive or not receive a believer who thinks he has joined a denomination? Does he have to leave the denomination in order to be received by you as a member of the local church and the body of Christ?

If Paul had gone to Lee, I guess Paul would be kicked out of the door of the local church to the outer darkness without the chance of saying a word because of his Judaism practices, e.g. He circumcised Timothy, the son of a Greek.
Yet Paul resisted Titus being circumcised, that's an interesting discussion in itself.

It depends - does the believer want to fellowship on the basis of his denomination, or does he want to fellowship on the basis of being a believer.

In the early church it was important to be identified correctly because of the spies and persecution.

Am curious - does everyone in your local church believe they are a Local Church denomination?
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Old 06-12-2017, 06:12 AM   #81
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The teaching of Witness Lee is clear - we are not a denomination, or a movement, we are just the church in the locality.

Everyone in the local churches that I know never refer to ourselves as the LC or Local Churches, just Christians in the locality.
And here we have the root of the problem -- the teaching of Witness Lee.

You will play your little word games forever, not because of scripture, but because of what Lee taught. It was this duplicitous double speak by LSM / DCP at afaithfulword during the GLA quarantines that served to educate many of us long time members of the true nature of the Recovery. These master wordsmiths could, in effect, spend an entire document explaining how black was really white using their twisted logic and the vast online ministry of Witness Lee.

"When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
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Old 06-12-2017, 08:12 AM   #82
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Am curious - does everyone in your local church believe they are a Local Church denomination?
Don't worry brother, I am only the odd man out. Most in the local church don't think (know?) they are in a denomination yet.

But I noticed they call less and less themselves the church in the locaility. More and more they just say the church or they are in the Lord's Recovery.
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Old 06-12-2017, 08:54 AM   #83
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Don't worry brother, I am only the odd man out. Most in the local church don't think (know?) they are in a denomination yet.
After watching LSM over the years grow and transform itself from a minister and his printing press into this panoptic controller of all things "recovery," subjecting every member LC to its endless whims, I have concluded that that defines denominational evils more than any so-called name, pseudo-name, or non-name.
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Old 06-13-2017, 03:05 PM   #84
Evangelical
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Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,982
Default Re: Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
Don't worry brother, I am only the odd man out. Most in the local church don't think (know?) they are in a denomination yet.

But I noticed they call less and less themselves the church in the locaility. More and more they just say the church or they are in the Lord's Recovery.
I would not read too much into whether they add "in the locality" or not to the end. "the church" is much quicker/easier to say and it would not make much sense for us to tell each other the obvious that we are all in the same locality. It is usually only visitors who say which locality they are from.
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