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Old 07-09-2020, 09:35 PM   #1
Hodos
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Default The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

In Viet Nam, by the picking up one old copy of The Stream Magazine, dated 1965, in one Christian Library in Vietnam, we, some Christians in one denomination(Christian Missionary Alliance in US), had begun the rough church life from 1980.

Now, 2020, there are about 45 rough local churches in all Vietnam. This is the wonderful work of God in our closed country. After many years practicing the new way according LSM, on one side, we had been enjoyed many riches in God's word through the teaching of Bro. W. Nee, and one other side, we were feeling that we are the proud men, the hypocritical Christians. In the church meetings we prophesied the truths that we had not yet experienced, such as to say the lessons to our elementary teachers in the schools. Thank God, on one hand, we had gone out from the Babylon, but on the other hand, it seems we are under just other system.

I read in the book of Bro. Nee, preaching 1952, (The Church Affairs) He says that in the book Acts, there were over two work centers. If there was not the Antioch center, we should come back to the Catholic Church. Because it is right. I see in the Recovery of The LC, there is one capital, only one center. So we can not say "amen". From 2015, there was about 7 localities that went out of the LC. Praise The Lord, because by God's grace, we, the saints in Viet Nam had been recovered in The Lord. We want to be recovered fully, completely according the teachings of The Bible, not by the teachings of men.

Pray for us.

Hodos
July 10, 2020
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Old 07-16-2020, 09:01 AM   #2
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Hodos,

Thank you so much for giving us this update on what is happening in Viet Nam. May the Lord continue to encourage, enlighten and strengthen you brothers and sisters there in Viet Nam.

It sounds like some of the Local Church saints there have felt like the Lord has been restricted within the system of the Living Stream Ministry churches (many here feel the same way) and have taken a bold step of faith to "go outside of the gate" and give the Lord freedom to work in and among the saints apart from the burdens and restrictions dictated by the headquarters in Anaheim California.

I believe God will honor your desire to serve and worship him, no matter what the cost.

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Old 07-17-2020, 12:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

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.... and one other side, we were feeling that we are the proud men, the hypocritical Christians. In the church meetings we prophesied the truths that we had not yet experienced, such as to say the lessons to our elementary teachers in the schools. Thank God, on one hand, we had gone out from the Babylon, but on the other hand, it seems we are under just other system.
What is great is that you recognised your own pride and hypocracy. It is the stumbling block for all humanity, for all time. And you've identified it and seperated yourselves from it, and identified that the LRM was fostering pride.

God is clearly with you as your hearts are right before Him.

The breaking of the power and sovereignty of the Catholic Church, released Europe into a place where things could move forward. Having denominations keep the Christian church from being able to gain power in the way the Catholic Church did. This lead to human rights and the rule of law, which is why people have human rights and freedoms in western culture. And a good legal system (not perfect, but good).

Its so important to have the freedom of multiple churches, it actually helps keep your focus on Jesus rather than an institution, or a person. It prevents the uncontrolled gathering of power that is so tempting to people when the opportunity arises. Especially when they can't see their own pride!

I bless you in your endeavours to establish a healthy organisation under which you are all able to worship freely and sincerely.
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Old 07-17-2020, 08:23 AM   #4
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Praise The Lord, who have mercy on His small, tender, late saints in Viet Nam, because we very lately received the Recovery way from 1970, but until the Viet Nam war to be ended, we should practice the church life in the year 1980. In 1996 there was one worker from LSM coming to Viet Nam to unify all the rough churches here into one human system.

Several of us to be driven away...and to be pushed against the wall. But after some years bro. John So came to Viet Nam. He gave us the book of bro. John Ingall---"Speaking The Truth in Love". For the first time we knew about the fall of LSM.

Hallelujah. The throne of God is controlling all things in the same way forever.

Thank God. All glories be to Him forever!

Hodos
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Old 07-17-2020, 11:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Welcome to the forum! John Ingalls' book is a very good one which many on this forum have been helped by. Most of us on here, as you probably know, do not meet with LSM controlled churches any more. Some small groups of us still meet in an open way, like the format we had in the LSM controlled churches. The saints can testify about any experience of Christ they have, or any author/speaker they may want to share - not just exclusive Witness Lee stuff all the time. I've been with such a group now for over 20 years, and it has been a very good and rich fellowship, with a focus always on Christ alone and His word.
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Old 07-19-2020, 01:09 AM   #6
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We are some of saints, living in Vietnam. Some years ago, we have been out of the Recovery churches system of LSM, and now we are practicing local church life in our city. Now we are so happy in Christ and in church life.

While worshiping our Father, we read only the Bible and follow God's Word. We do not want follow man but Christ. If any brothers and sisters have the opportunity to come to Vietnam, please visit us.

Thanks God, our Father. We are members of one Body of Christ. We are one in Christ, in His Word, and we love one another. Hallelujah!
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Old 07-19-2020, 10:18 PM   #7
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Halelujah! Praise The Lord, Our glorious Victor!

After the saints in Viet Nam had been practicing the church life from 1980 and 1981, immediatly the protestant churches in Viet Nam had given us many heavy persecutions until the year 2000, these were reduced and temporary stopped....But the saints in the LSM LC churches have persecuted us heavy at once when we durst to go out their LSM churches from several years ago.
There also are many saints have seen the wrong way of LSM, but they dare not to leave them, because they fear the persecutions from the leading ones in LC Viet Nam.
Now there are six groups of saints in the inner city of Ho Chi Minh City. They are meeting outside the LSM churches.

Brothers, pray for us.

Hodos
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Old 08-20-2020, 01:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

What is it then, brethren? whenever ye come together, each [of you] has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done to edification.

And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
But if there be a revelation to another sitting [there], let the first be silent.
- 1Cor. 14:26, 29-30 (Darby)
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PROPHESING IN THE MEETINGS OF LSM CHURCHES IN VIET NAM-
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The LSM churches in Vietnam practice false prophesying as follows:
1. Paul told that there are only two or three people to prophesy in meetings. In Vietnam, the leaders encouraged and forced (all) everyone to attend the meetings to prophesy loudly, people only worry about speaking without paying attention to what others say.
2. Paul said the prophet must receive revelation and speak the scripture according to his personal received revelation from the Lord. In the LSM congregations in Vietnam, people prophesy according to the text of a deceased person. They do not prophesy other than with printed material. I saw them prophesying like the one saying or reciting lessons to teachers in schools, prophesying like talking robots, without understanding. Just say "amen" noisily, it is ok.
.
Hence the people of God in the LSM congregations in Viet Nam are hungry and thirsty for the living words, lack of fresh revelations, without the anointed words of the Holy Spirit. The LSM churches become like religious organizations, taking the form of recovery, but without the abundant life.
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Old 08-22-2020, 12:15 AM   #9
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2. Paul said the prophet must receive revelation and speak the scripture according to his personal received revelation from the Lord. In the LSM congregations in Vietnam, people prophesy according to the text of a deceased person. They do not prophesy other than with printed material. I saw them prophesying like the one saying or reciting lessons to teachers in schools, prophesying like talking robots, without understanding. Just say "amen" noisily, it is ok.

Hence the people of God in the LSM congregations in Viet Nam are hungry and thirsty for the living words, lack of fresh revelations, without the anointed words of the Holy Spirit. The LSM churches become like religious organizations, taking the form of recovery, but without the abundant life.
It happens like that in the United States too. I can't tell you how many times I've been in a prophesying meeting when a saint stands up and says, "I didn't understand the morning revival at all this week, but I'll just read and release a point from it in faith!"

In a sense, that ends up being a form of uninterpreted speaking in tongues, which is the uncertain trumpet. "I don't understand what I'm saying, and it doesn't mean anything to me, but I say it anyway." How on earth is that edifying or building up at all? But everyone else mindlessly says "amen" in response. It is dead. For a movement to proclaim they are so focused on "life", they sure are lacking it.
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Old 08-23-2020, 09:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

The Divine Law of the Burnt-Offering-
Leviticus 6:8-12 “This is the law of the burnt-offering; this, the burnt-offering, shall be on the hearth on the altar all night unto the morning….And the priest shall put on his linen raiment, …and take up the ashes to which the fire hath consumed the burnt-offering on the altar, and he shall put them beside the altar…. and carry forth the ashes without the camp unto a clean place….and the priest shall burn wood on it every morning, and lay the burnt-offering in order upon it; and he shall burn thereon the fat of the peace-offerings."

--I saw the ashes of one so-called great servant of God, that still lie sprawled on the altar in the midst of all the LSM congregations. They are not to be removed that to leave the space to other burnt-offerings. The ashes are still talking and giving orders to many living ones.

--35 years ago I read the comments of Watchman Nee as follows: (I wrote down the idea):
"When the seed is sown on the ground, it grows up, then becomes a rice bush, and becomes fertile. After harvesting the paddy grain, people plow the stubble, and clear the field. God does not allow His late servants' influence to be exerted on His people. He was very jealous, not allowing any of His servants to become an idol among His people, so that they might be tempted to honor them too much".

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Old 08-24-2020, 09:16 AM   #11
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Thank you so much Hodos (and Nehemiah) for coming to our forum and blessing us with your reports of what is happening with the dear brothers and sisters there in Vietnam. It seems that the Lord has given you special insight and burden for God's people, and for his church, in a very difficult situation there in Vietnam. Many of us can fully understand and appreciate how your struggles can become all the more difficult when you are fighting against the religious system of error that pervades among the dear saints in the Living Stream Ministry Local Churches.

I am reminded of the apostle Paul's word's written to the Romans (10:2)
"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge."

May "The Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too."(1 Cor 1:3-5)

Rest assured that many on this forum are keeping you brothers and sisters in our thoughts and prayers.
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Old 08-26-2020, 06:42 PM   #12
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TO BE DRUNK THE PRAISES OF MEN IS TO BE BORN THE PRIDE-
David was unable to bear when the glory of God was humiliated by his enemies, risking himself to kill Goliath when he was about only 15 years old. Women from many Israeli cities sing in response to folk songs: " Saul hath smitten his thousands, And David his ten thousands". His reputation spreading to neighboring countries. Year after year he walked the path of glory and victory forever until the day he was to be so arrogant that he wanted to have an complement army checking, so that Joab who was an ambitious man must to prevent. David fell in arrogance in his old age.

I have read the repetitive bragging words of several great persons in LSM as they preached. They kept saying the saint's praises to them. More and more years of drunk in human praises, dire consequences must come: “Am I not an apostle of the earth? Am I not the only one to have the oracles of God? Don't I have the age ministry? Am I not the only one who possesses great high truths? ”….
I read the boast of a number 1 figure in the LSM; " None shall be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life" (Joshua 1: 5a- Darby). Is this the deepest root of his life (if it is true) why is he bragging?
“As the fining pot tries the silver and the furnace the gold; so the man is tried by the mouth of whoever praises him“(Proverbs 27:21 -Jubilee Bible)-
“Weaned from all my lordly self,
Weaned from all the miser’s pelf,
Weaned from all scorner’ways,
Weaned from all the lust of praise”. (Hymn 413).

I am no better than my fathers, but because His mercy gives light to me to see the reason for my wicked arrogance, so I can see the path of glory and pride of king David who was walked to the point of his pride. Thank God, I was collapsed in front of My holy God. Amen .
Hodos.
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Old 09-04-2020, 03:41 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-

1/ A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through Watchman Nee. and Witness Lee the Lord's recovery come to a zenith, and that the culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L."

2/ An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "

Thank you,

Hodos
September 4, 2020
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Old 09-04-2020, 06:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos View Post
I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020
Hi Hodos,

The Corinthians seemed to have much the same problem that you describe above. When they told Paul about their problem, here's what he told them and us, with a few "updates" to bring home the point of these verses to fit your situation.

1 Corinthians 1:11
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe (Vietnam), that there are contentions (disagreements) among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
(I am of Witness Lee. I am of Titus Chu. I am of John So.)
13 Is Christ divided? was Witness Lee crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Witness Lee?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.


When Christians are asking which man they should follow, they are asking the wrong question. They are asking how they should divide the Body of Christ by following which man.

Paul asks the excellent question "Is Christ divided?"

Of course, the answer is "no!"

We are to follow Christ. No man. We are free to read the writings of others who have gone before us, as we are led by the Lord Himself. We are also free to reject the writings of others whose purpose is to draw a following unto themselves by insisting "I am of Witness Lee".

Galatians 5 (KJV)
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

We are free to read the writings of Witness Lee, but we are not to be brought into bondage by following Lee or any other man.

John 8:36 (KJV)
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Following Witness Lee will not make anyone free.

I hope this helps,
Nell
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Old 09-04-2020, 11:22 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Recovery of The Local Churches in Vietnam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos View Post
I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020
Hi Hodos,

The Recovery people have all kinds of deceitful comments like these to hold their people in bondage. They are all lies.

When LSM came into the Midwest region of the U.S. and divided all the LC's, I was told that "returning to the pure word of God was a tactic of the enemy." They demanded that every LC buy and read their "Morning Revival" books.

How can this be? Martin Luther and all of the Reformers "returned to the pure word of God" and the western world was delivered from the Dark Ages. How can it ever be wrong to return to God's pure and holy word? Who would ever teach that Lee's books are better than the Bible?

Placing LSM's ministry books between LC members and the Word of God is the same as the Roman Catholic Church placing Mary between their members and God.
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Old 09-04-2020, 09:23 PM   #16
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I am meeting with a group of saints outside the LSM so-called churches in Viet Nam. There are a few saints in their congregations who told me some of their remarks as follows, hope you are the ones who are ahead of us in the right way of recovery, please guide us so that we can help many others saints in Vietnam-
Hi Hodos,

The comments you quoted from the saints regarding Witness Lee and LSM weigh heavily on me. I think Nell’s answer was excellent, and Ohio’s answer was exactly right too. The Bible says the opposite of what these saints are saying, and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in.

Here are some of my thoughts to add to the mix:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos
1 / A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.
1.The teaching behind believing that Nee and Lee are some kind of zenith is the teaching of “minister of the age”. One big problem with the minister of the age teaching is that numerous of the so-called MOTAs in the Old Testament are known types and figures, shadows, of who? The Messiah. They are all pointing to Christ. Lee/LSM places Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the most unique man who has ever lived, the One who is supposed to be the fulfillment of these types, simply as one among many men in the long line of MOTAs. No joke. And then after Him, Lee says the MOTA line continues through the apostles and others leading up to Lee himself. But this is not how types and shadows work. If there are more types AFTER the fulfillment of the type, then the original fulfillment (Jesus) becomes a mere shadow of what is after him. In other words, these dear deceived saints are in essence saying that Jesus is a type, a figure, a shadow, pointing to the zenith, the one at the end, Witness Lee. I am horrified for those who continue to teach and believe the MOTA doctrine, for the serious and sobering conclusions such as these that it implies.

God did not send His only Son to die for you and me only for the ultimate peak to be tied to LSM, a lucrative non-profit publishing company based in Anaheim, CA. It’s totally crazy when you say it that way! Jesus says He is the Way to the Father. THE Way. There is no other way. Including LSM. Including Lee. To be unable to give up any other mortal teacher who will be sitting in the same seat as the rest of us to be judged shows just how much in the oppression of fear and bondage they are. But I’m sure they don’t even realize it, so effective are the thought and behavior controlling teachings of this ministry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos
2 / An elderly saint said to me: “Do not bring us back to the Stone Age, in that we had to work hard to find some bible verses to share on Sunday morning meetings according 1 Corinthians 14:26. Today with the help of LSM, everything is ready, why not accept the documents they print? "
Thank you,
Hodos, September, 4, 2020
2.Their reference to 1 Corinthians 14:26 is confusing, given that the verse speaks of each one having a hymn, a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Of almost all the churches out there, the local churches match this the LEAST! Why is that? Because the hymns are chosen by Lee or modified by Lee or written by Lee. The instruction is based on Lee. The revelation is only from Lee. The tongues are non-existent. And the interpretation is only and solely from Lee, OR ELSE!! There is no semblance of “each one has”..... there is only “Lee has”!

I feel for you, Hodos, because there are some responses from LC members where the deception is so great, so deep, and so dark, that you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes. It reminds me of the scene in Ezekiel where the temple is full of idols and everyone has their backs to the temple worshipping Tammuz (a false god, an idol) rather than the God whose glory filled the temple, the real God. They are so blinded that sometimes all we can do is pray for God’s mercy to be extended to them like it has been to us.

We are praying for you.

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Old 09-05-2020, 02:48 AM   #17
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Dear Nell,

Thank you for your reply, and for giving me some very precise instructions that I feel they are right before the eyes of God. The saints of LSM in Vietnam are following their religion’s head, Witness Lee. They dare not leave him, for fear of committing rebellion. And they said several of our brothers were LSM rebels, chasing trash (John So, John Ingall), when we seceded them seven years ago now. These LSM saints are not free to read the books outside of the LSM books.

Hodos
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Old 09-05-2020, 03:18 AM   #18
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Dear Brother Ohio,

Your words that expose plans of Satan, using human words in the LSM to usurp the throne of the pure word of God, the Bible. I have seen that the saints of the LSM in Vietnam no longer read the holy scriptures themselves, they just read their morning revival books. They did not wholeheartedly seek the Lord's revealed words before going to morning meeting of the Lord's day. They slept and woke up late, then brought only their morning revival book, not Bibles, into the meeting room. There they just return and recite from that book only. It is worse and poorer than the meetings of the Protestant denominations that they have so heavily condemned before.

Hodos
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Old 09-05-2020, 03:53 AM   #19
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Hi Trapped,

These words are very correct: “and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in”… “you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes”.

We are praying for them. Thank you for this helpful advice. The words you said about the so-called MOTAs are deep and difficult to understand to us in Vietnam. I will think and study about these things more. I don't understand the abbreviation of MOTA. With God's grace, last time I translated a post of "Very good start, but in progress, many misinterpretations of Scripture" by Fer74 into Vietnamese, then I emailed directly to quite a many leading- ones in the LSM congregations in Vietnam. This time I ask your permission and that of brothers Ohio and Nell to let me translate your just three posts here and translate them into Vietnamese, then post them on facebook and email to them all.

Thank You so much-
Hodos
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Old 09-05-2020, 08:47 AM   #20
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Dear Brother Ohio,
Your words that expose plans of satan, using human words in the LSM to usurp the throne of the pure word of God, the Bible. I have seen that the saints of the LSM in Vietnam no longer read the holy scriptures themselves, they just read their morning revival books. They did not wholeheartedly seek the Lord's revealed words before going to morning meeting of the Lord's day. They slept and woke up late, then brought only their morning revival book, not Bibles, into the meeting room. There they just return and recite from that book only. It is worse and poorer than the meetings of the Protestant denominations that they have condemned heavy before.
Hodos
Hodos, we now have learned about certain sects in China that exposed the deceptions of the Nee and Lee MOTA claims. The Bible says we will know them by their fruit. Sometimes it takes many years for the fruit to be manifest.

Concerning Nee:

Dr. Lily Hsu wrote a book "My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church."

There also has been much discussion about this book on another thread of this forum.

Dr. Hsu documents how MOTA W. Nee became an idol within the Chinese LC's, and his failures caused many of his beloved followers to become ship-wrecked in their faith. Apostle Paul exhorts us to "hold faith and a good conscience." (I Tim 1.19) Paul never exhorts us to "hold" onto him, or his ministry.

Concerning Lee:

Years ago LSM claimed that all of the "Shouters" on mainland China (they said almost ~10,000,000) were their "fruit." LSM sent them endless books from W. Lee to "perfect" them. Then this "Lord Changhou" sect began worshiping Lee, shouting his name. "Changhou" is Lee's Chinese name. Here is a forum thread on this subject.

Once LSM learned that these Chinese saints shouted slogans and claimed Lee as their god, they were forced to disavow any knowledge of them. Such is the ugly fruit of exalting man. Yet LSM still claims that they cannot "honor Lee" too much.
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Old 09-06-2020, 12:25 AM   #21
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Hi Trapped,
These words are very correct: “and what they are saying shows how much bondage they are in”… “you will get more hurt and more frustrated and more driven out of your mind by trying to engage with them logically, and you would be better served and would better serve them simply by praying that God would open their eyes”.
We are praying for them. Thank you for this helpful advice.
The words you said about the so-called MOTAs are deep and difficult to understand to us in Vietnam. I will think and study about these things more. I don't understand the abbreviation of MOTA.
With God's grace, last time I translated a post of "Very good start, but in progress, many misinterpretations of Scripture" by Fer74 into Vietnamese, then I emailed directly to quite a many leading- ones in the LSM congregations in Vietnam. This time I ask your permission and that of brothers Ohio and Nell to let me translate your just three posts here and translate them into Vietnamese, then post them on facebook and email to them all.
Thank You so much-
Hodos
The MOTA abbreviation stands for "Minister Of The Age". Sorry I didn't say that in my first post. The saints you quoted did not say "minister of the age" (MOTA), but when speaking of Nee and Lee being the "zenith" of a "recovery", the MOTA concept may be a big part of what is behind that thought.

In the semi-annual trainings, the co-workers often remind and emphasize that Nee and Lee are the "ministers of the age" (except they are not), and recently even added a new layer of idolatry that Nee and Lee are better and more constituted ministers of the age than any of the ministers of the age before them.

Are you aware of the teaching of "minister of the age"? I can explain it some if it would help clarify what I said in my other post. However, if the minister of the age concept is not a prevalent one among the saints in Vietnam, then an explanation may not be useful or relevant.

You are welcome to translate any portions of my posts that you think are helpful.
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Old 09-06-2020, 02:24 AM   #22
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Hi Trapped,

Thank You.

You say:"Are you aware of the teaching of 'minister of the age'."? I can explain it some if it would help clarify what I said in my other post. However, if the minister of the age concept is not a prevalent one among the saints in Vietnam, then an explanation may not be useful or relevant.

In Viet Nam, all the LSM saints in Vietnam have idolised Witness Lee, not Watchman Nee. I see that they consider him as the head of one religion. Witness Lee cannot be in error. I heard some ones from LSM in US coming to VietNam to preach "the teaching of "minister of the age" many years ago. You should explain this false teaching clearly so that I can translated it into Vietnamese and help the blind saints in Viet nam. The LSM saints in Viet Nam are fervently welcoming "The New Man", "The universal Church", and the religion of LSM. Please explain this false teaching also. Thank you so much.

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Old 09-07-2020, 04:05 PM   #23
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Ropes tie up the LSM leaders of in Vietnam. There are chains binding LSM churches in Viet Nam as follows:

1/ The principle of one city/one church. Many saints have been opened their eyes to see what was wrong with the LSM, but they are afraid of committing crimes that divide the Body of Christ, so they dare not step out.

2/ Deputy Authority. Someone from LSM came to Vietnam to choose 12 rough elders (not including Nehemiah and me, thank God) as the co-worker team of Vietnam. All saints bowed fearfully in obedience to those delegated authorities.

Thank God, after I entered this forum, I saw the principle of one city/ one church, and the power of delegating authority (acting as a world company director) are two false doctrines.

3/ In 1999, the elders of the LSM churhes in Vietnam gathered to draft a statement of absolute commitment to obeying the US LSM. (Thank God they did not let me and Nehemiah sign the bond.) I feel all the restored congregations in Viet Nam are the property of LSM.

4/ LSM uses money to put the yoke of slavery to LSM churhes in Vietnam. In 2015 they gave many many money to build headquarters office, and annually send a lot of money to pay salary for employees like full-timers and Nazarite men.

Dear brothers,
Please pray for us and help us to break the chains to free those whose eyes have been opened by God to see something wrong with LSM.
After I post articles like this on Facebook, they will probably attack us, even using the gangster method.
“But Jehovah is with me (us) as a mighty terrible one; therefore my persecutors shall stumble and shall not prevail; they shall be greatly ashamed, for they have not prospered: it shall be an everlasting confusion that shall not be forgotten”. Jeremiah 20:11.

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Old 09-10-2020, 01:34 PM   #24
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Hodos,

I still owe you a response about the minister of the age (MOTA) (although you do reference deputy authority in your latest post and there is some overlap between the two concepts), but just wanted to respond to a part of your latest post very briefly.

Regarding one city/one church - I can personally testify to having left the LC and gone to another church (a dreaded "denomination") and have participated in taking the table outside the LC. I didn't get struck by lightning. I didn't get hit by a car. And most importantly, God has not left me or turned a cold shoulder towards me. I think many others here can say the same thing. This type of teaching is a classic fear-based type teaching known to be used by abusive groups - "if you leave us for whatever valid or invalid reason, for whatever bogus or even scriptural-sounding reason, you will suffer condemnation/judgment/repercussion!!" I may be too strong here, but I think there are some grounds to say it this strongly: if anyone is being gripped by a fear other than the fear of the Holy One, then that fear is from the devil. There is a good Christian song that sums it up well: "Fear is a liar." God desires that no man perish, and sent His Son to accomplish this fact. He will not turn around and cause the perishing of one of His children who goes to meet with other blood-washed, Spirit-filled believers.

Regarding the 1999 absolute statement to LSM, do you happen to have a copy of that statement? Did LSM, or anyone, respond to the statement, and if so, how did they respond? I'm blanking on what was happening in the LC in 1999.....was this part of a larger number of churches in the world signing allegiance statements, or was this unique to Vietnam at the time?

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Old 09-10-2020, 07:06 PM   #25
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Hi Trapped

Thank you for your words full of divine life, and light and love about the giving up on the path of LSM.

I want to talk more about the document promising loyalty to LSM of Vietnamese elders. In 1999, in the home of my brother-in-law in Vinh Long city, I and about 15 localities signed the promising document. At that moment my heart was very happy in my stupid blindness.

In August of this year, 2020, brother Chuong from Dalat city called me and said something I never knew. He said the bond in Vinh Long has been canceled. The top leading ones invited the Vietnamese elders to gather in other place (do not invite me and Nehemiah) to sign the second document promising to be loyal to LSM. Strangely, Chuong did not sign both documents. He and his saints in Dalat city have also abandoned LSM since 2013.

I think maybe for the security of the Vietnamese saints, the LSM did not allow the Vietnamese files to be imported into their general computer, and perhaps kept this document separately in the Vietnamese section's room in the LSM's large office. I did not see and know anything about the second file except what Mr. Chuong told me this August. Thank you, you and the brothers there, for your wholehearted concern for the spiritual well-being of the saints in Vietnam. Thanks.

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Old 09-10-2020, 09:15 PM   #26
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So there was a second document signed with a reduced number of elders signing it? When was the first document promising loyalty to LSM (the bond) cancelled? When was the second document signed? Was this all 20 years ago, and you just found out about it this year? Or was the second document signed this year?
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Old 09-11-2020, 09:10 PM   #27
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Hi Trapped,

I'm sorry that my just last words weren't clear enough. And I also missed this question of yours: "Did LSM, or anyone, respond to the statement, and if so, how did they respond?" Two documents were signed by the elders in the same year, 1999, in two different locations, with a time span of a few months. The first document was annulled at the second location. They canceled it because, I felt it in my spirit, they didn't want me to participate in the building of their churches in Vietnam. The second document has more elders than signed. When I was informed by bro. Chuong from Dalat city this August about the second document, I was amazed very much and thanked God that I did not have to sign my name in order to put a yoke of slavery upon the beloved Vietnamese congregations.

LSM responded by inviting two top leaders to go to the US for a month's training, and then placing an old man as a manager and a young person as director. The second one seems to be the Vietnamese top co-worker of LSM. LSM bookstores have also opened a branch in Vietnam, probably since 2008. This person has banned me from buying their books before 2013. He is ruling the LSM Vietnamese congregations in the title of LSM bookstore in Vietnam. A member of the LSM bought him and also bought his loyalty with a large sum of money, on the excuse of helping him build church meeting hall in his home.

Dear brothers and sisters. During the 1980s, you had stepped out of the LSM one by one, while at that time, we were just get ready, barely, naively on the road to the recovery of the Lord, unaware that we had been trapped gradually by the LSM. Were Enjoying some true truths, but also were gullible in their lies. So please pray and guide us in the right way, who have been behind you for many years. Thank you.

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Old 09-11-2020, 10:04 PM   #28
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Hodos,

Thank you for the clarification. I think I understand now.

Have you read any books on spiritual abuse? For example "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" by Johnsen and VanVonderen? Or "Healing Spiritual Abuse" by Ken Blue? There is a certain level of help that saints who used to be in the LSM churches can give you, and then there is a different level of help (not better, not worse, but just helpful in a different way) that people who have never set foot in an LSM-related church can provide. It is quite an experience to read books written by people who have never been in an LSM church, but who wrote books that match up with so many characteristics of the LSM churches. These books, which are about spiritual abuse and abusive doctrines found in abusive churches, shine the light on what exactly is going on in the LSM church movement and how these kind of doctrines are found all over the place in other abusive churches and groups with aberrant doctrines.

Somehow, reading these kinds of books helped to release some of the chains around me. They helped to pull my perspective out from feeling like I was on the ground in the middle of a battlefield, to being in a plane flying over the battlefield looking down on it from 2,000 feet above the earth. It gives you a totally different perspective, broader, wider. And it shrinks the "authority" of the LSM leaders down to where it belongs - about an inch high, if that. I wonder if these books would be helpful to you and others?

There is another book called "When Narcissism Comes to Church" by Chuck DeGroat. I have read a portion of the book, but have not read the whole thing yet, so I cannot recommend it outright, but it seemed to be on the right track.

Another book recommendation that appeared on Jo Casteel's facebook letter thread that many people following the thread bought is called "The Uriah Syndrome" by Robert Dixon. He explains how the Bible shows that it's the church itself that has the authority (say, to discipline sinning saints, appoint elders, etc), and not the elders and co-workers. Yes, elders/apostles can be involved, but the church should actually be much more involved than the LC ever allows. Once you read it, you start to see that concept pop up all over in the Word.

Some of the books have recommendations for people who have come out of an abusive church. Some of them have recommendations for leaders who have realized they took part in an abusive system. There are other books out there on the same topic too. I think these are an invaluable read for anyone who has touched the LSM movement.

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Old 09-12-2020, 07:27 AM   #29
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Hi Trapped,
Thank God. Praise Him! Thank you deeply in my heart. What a precious introduction to the four precious, rare books — the spiritual antidote of God timely for the healing of the saints in general and in Vienam
I don't know these 4 books yet and am praying to find a way to buy them. I saw Jo Casteel's facebook and asked to befriend him.
Thank you once again because my heart is so touched by the Lord's wonderful providence. Hodos
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Old 09-17-2020, 08:34 PM   #30
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Hi Trapped,
Thank God. Praise Him! Thank you deeply in my heart. What a precious introduction to the four precious, rare books — the spiritual antidote of God timely for the healing of the saints in general and in Vienam
I don't know these 4 books yet and am praying to find a way to buy them. I saw Jo Casteel's facebook and asked to befriend him.
Thank you once again because my heart is so touched by the Lord's wonderful providence. Hodos
Hodos,

I hope they are helpful!

I forgot to send these links along. This is a two-part interview with the authors of one of the books I recommended, "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". Just in case you have a hard time getting your hands on the book, you can at least watch the interviews.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGL_Wl7BAfE (Part 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MelXy5Gj7Jc (Part 2)

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Old 10-02-2020, 02:23 AM   #31
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One testimony from Viet Nam.

Thou didst break the heads of leviathan in pieces and didst give him to be food to the people inhabiting the wilderness. Psalm 74:14 (Jubilee Bible).

I have never seen WL before. I have only been reading Lee's books since 1969. My mind was stupid and happy when I first started to be lived under the rule of the LSM since 1996 in the so-called LSM Philadelphia congregations in Vietnam. After leaving the LSM with several saints since 2013 and having been involved and read several threads in this forum for the past two months, I am increasingly amazed at the fall of an arrogant WL. The Leviathan in Psalm 74:14 was killed by the Lord and gave its flesh as food to the people in the wilderness. It is said that the Leviathan in Psalm 74 represents the power of the Egyptian Pharaoh, to be decomposed and disbranched in the time of Psalm 74’s author.

I just read online one chapter of "When The Narcissim comes to Church" by Chuck DeGroat. I wonder if the Leviathan in our time is the ego of Satan, to be expressed in the ego of WL. WL's ego was killed by God, and it is now a kind of food to feed one part of God's people today in general, and especially for those who are already entangled in the LSM. For the more I read this forum, the more amazed I am that God has raised many saints, who have a fresh and genuine light to see the deadly mistakes of human teachings, of one so-called minister of the age. And since then, we have had many delicious foods, which the ones had been "taken advantage of" in the churches for years, now receiving spiritual healing, and spiritual growth. I remember Samson's saying: “Out of the eater came something to eat, And out of the strong came something sweet.” (Judges 14: 14)

Praise the Lord for His grace in abundance in all times to us.
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Old 10-03-2020, 10:14 PM   #32
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Hi Trapped,

Thank You.

You say:"Are you aware of the teaching of 'minister of the age'."? I can explain it some if it would help clarify what I said in my other post. However, if the minister of the age concept is not a prevalent one among the saints in Vietnam, then an explanation may not be useful or relevant.

In Viet Nam, all the LSM saints in Vietnam have idolised Witness Lee, not Watchman Nee. I see that they consider him as the head of one religion. Witness Lee cannot be in error. I heard some ones from LSM in US coming to VietNam to preach "the teaching of "minister of the age" many years ago. You should explain this false teaching clearly so that I can translated it into Vietnamese and help the blind saints in Viet nam. The LSM saints in Viet Nam are fervently welcoming "The New Man", "The universal Church", and the religion of LSM. Please explain this false teaching also. Thank you so much.

Hodos
Hodos,

Sorry it took me so long to respond to you regarding the minister of the age (MOTA) teaching. There is a lot I could say about it, but didn't want to drown you in words about it. What I will write will fall short, but I wanted to respond with at least something so I can keep my promise to you about it. I'm not on my best game today, so I hope this comes out clearly enough.

Lee/LSM teaches that in each "age" (whatever that is), there is one person called "the minister of the age" (MOTA) that God raises up, and that MOTA releases the "vision of the age" and also takes the lead in carrying out "the ministry of the age".

So there's:
-the minister of the age (MOTA)
-the vision of the age
-the ministry of the age

In the book "The Vision of the Age", Witness Lee traces through what he calls the ministers of the age, from Adam in the Old Testament to Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc....then through the New Testament with Peter, Paul, Jesus, John, then through recent centuries with Luther, Guyon, Zinzendorf, etc.

To be totally honest, if that's all he did, I wouldn't even have much problem with it. I wouldn't agree with it, but I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Why wouldn't I have a problem with it? Because none of the people in that lineage thought that they themselves were ministers of the age. They weren't telling anyone that they had to follow them or else God wasn't happy with them. The issue comes when Witness Lee finishes creating a lineage that the Bible does not speak of, and then says, literally, this:

"In the twentieth century the vision came to us. I am not 'selling' myself here, but..."

When someone says "I am not selling myself here BUT..." we all know what that means.

They are selling themselves.

Yep, Witness Lee was just selling himself. He goes on to make a declaration about the uniqueness of the Lord's recovery. The undeniable implication is that he's now "the minister of the age".

So what we've got is Witness Lee creating a long successive lineage of special, unique, singular people that everyone was "supposed" to line up under (a lineage that no other Christians teach about) so he could put himself as the endcap of the whole thing! That alone tells us just about everything we need to know about how little credence we should give any of his words. He built a fake throne so he could sit upon it. And we know that this is antithetical to what Jesus describes in the gospels. The apostles who wanted to sit on the right and left of the throne quickly heard from Jesus that this type of attitude and rule in the church should not be so with them.

Mark 10:35-45
35 Then James and John, the sons of Zebedee, came to him. “Teacher,” they said, “we want you to do for us whatever we ask.”
36 “What do you want me to do for you?” he asked.
37They replied, “Let one of us sit at your right and the other at your left in your glory.”
38 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”
39 “We can,” they answered.
Jesus said to them, “You will drink the cup I drink and be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with,
40 but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.”
41 When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John.
42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all.
45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

But Witness Lee created an entire doctrine that doesn't exist in order to set himself up as someone special in the church! Not just someone special, but the one, unique, special person in the current age, that saw every vision remaining so no one else could follow him as the next minister of the age even after he died! I mean.......Lord have mercy, seriously.

So there are a few issues with this MOTA teaching:

1. The teaching says that the MOTA "releases the vision of the age" to God's people in that age. The "vision of the age" is supposedly whatever God wants to reveal to His people in that age. Well....the problem is, there is certainly no record of Adam "releasing a vision" to God's people in Adam's age. Or Abel. Or Enosh, or Noah, or, or, or...... After the flood Noah tended vineyards; he didn't release visions to God's people. In some cases like the prophets in the OT we could grant it, but for this teaching to work, we have to clearly see that each defined MOTA carried out the MOTA work, and it's just not there in Scripture.

2. The teaching says that the MOTA releases THE vision of that age, i.e. one vision. Well, again, the problem with that is that when LSM extols Witness Lee, they will detail out a long list of visions Lee supposedly released. So, the principle of the teaching falls apart internally in their effort to exalt Witness Lee above all else. They have not only created an unbiblical MOTA, but Witness Lee (who self-proclaimed he is a MOTA) is apparently some kind of superpower MOTA to beat all MOTAs who didn't just release one vision in the age, but numerous. This contradicts the teaching itself.

3. I can personally let the idea stand that there is some kind of successive line of special people in the Old Testament that God used. But once Jesus came, that principle ended. Jesus is the fulfillment of the types and figures, and if there is such a thing as MOTA in the OT, then Jesus is the fulfillment of it. If we then go along with Lee's teaching that there were MOTAs AFTER Jesus, then we've just ripped away a glorious and revered status from the Son of God and relegated Him to just one minister among many. He's anything but just one minister among many. If there is a MOTA, Jesus is the MOTA to this day, not Witness Lee. This is what I meant in a previous post that if there were MOTAs after Jesus, then Jesus - who is the reality, the fulfillment - then Himself becomes just a type and a shadow in relation to the MOTAs who supposedly followed Him. It changes the Son of God, who is the truth and the reality and the way and the life, and makes Him just a shadow.

4. Lee also says that if you don't follow the vision of the age released by the MOTA, then "your service is not acceptable to God". His book makes it clear that in order to "follow the vision" you are supposed to "follow the minister". What this all comes out to in the end is "if you don't follow Witness Lee, God won't accept your service." In other words, Lee has just created an extra layer for right-standing with God in addition to accepting Christ as our Savior. He's saying that Jesus's dying on the cross isn't enough to grant right-standing with God; you also have to follow Witness Lee to get that.

I'm honestly amazed that God has had so much patience with the shocking implications of so many of Witness Lee's teachings.

There is more I could say on this teaching, but I wrote those four points just to show that the MOTA teaching doesn't stand on it's own two feet, even if we largely set scripture aside. It is inherently unsupported and breaks its own rules all over the place, as well as totally denigrates the status of the Son of God who came to save us when we had no hope.

As long as we have the book "The Vision of the Age" in mind, I want to mention something else from it regarding God's economy (this isn't related to the MOTA teaching).

In that book, Lee says:

"[Paul] told Timothy to remain in Ephesus to charge them not to teach anything different from God’s economy. This is the entire background of the writing of the first Epistle to Timothy."

What on earth could I have a problem with about these sentences? Well, a whole lot.

If we look at the actual verses, they say this:

1 Timothy 1:3-5
3 Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things
4 Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy, which is in faith.
5 But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and out of a good conscience and out of unfeigned faith;

Read them closely. Witness Lee says that Paul charges Timothy not to teach anything different from God's economy. But that's not true.

What Paul charges Timothy is to not teach the different things that produce questionings rather than [produce] God's economy. The grammar is that God's economy is not what is taught but what is produced.

In other words:
teach different things = produce questionings
teach the right things = produce God's economy

Paul doesn't tell Timothy to TEACH God's economy. He tells Timothy to teach the right things, and THAT will produce God's economy.

And what is missed by Witness Lee is that in verse 3 Paul tells Timothy to "charge" certain ones to do this. And then in verse 5, he says that "the end of the charge is love". In other words, the whole point, the whole goal of the command to teach the healthy things is -- love!!

The healthy teachings, by the way, are a little later in the same chapter in 1 Timothy......it's the glorious gospel that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, which all of us are.

Witness Lee completely missed "love" when he taught his messed up version of God's economy. God's economy isn't related to dispensing or to a high peak or what should be taught. God's economy is related to love, and is something that is produced by our teaching the healthy teachings.

So we don't need to teach God's economy. We need to keep spreading the best news we could ever hear - that Jesus came to save us from the sting of death by laying His own life down for us broken, hopeless sinners. And THAT will produce God's economy, the goal of which is love.

We can't deny it. It's what the verses say.

Anyway, this post isn't as clear as I'd like it to be, but I'm going to hit "submit reply" just so I can get some of this information to you. If there is something specific that doesn't make sense, please let me know and I'd be more than happy to explain.

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Old 10-04-2020, 06:08 AM   #33
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Hi Trapped,
Praise God, Thank you. These words are very clear to us, saints in Vietnam. Some of us have been delivered from this authority of darkness. Most of the other saints have been submitted to this wicked authority, and became dumb, blind, and deaf. I will translate this article into Vietnamese. May God have mercy on the Vietnamese saints to free some more people. Amen
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Old 10-04-2020, 08:28 AM   #34
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In the book "The Vision of the Age", Witness Lee traces through what he calls the ministers of the age, from Adam in the Old Testament to Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc....then through the New Testament with Peter, Paul, Jesus, John, then through recent centuries with Luther, Guyon, Zinzendorf, etc.
In order to support his reckless exaltation of his own ministry, Witness Lee went back and rewrote church history. This is a hallmark of all totalitarian regimes -- revisionist history.

After leaving the LC, I have been forced to completely purge my heart and memory of everything Lee taught about church history, unless it is corroborated by other historians.

Luther was not the first MOTA, in fact he declared himself a "Hussite," since his ministry aligned so well with Jan Hus (John Huss), the Czech theologian and martyr who preceded him by a century. I'm not promoting any minister to MOTA status, but Reformers like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Farel, et.al. would all credit Huss before accepting any such MOTA status for themselves. John Huss was also a strong advocate of women, and possessed none of Luther's anti-semitic tendencies.

Is there another Christian minister or historian on earth who would promote Madame Jeanne Guyon to be MOTA of the entire 17th Century? Seriously? Would someone please tell Blended Ron Kangas that his so-called MOTA predecessor was a Catholic sister! Far be it from me to disrespect any sister or brother in Christ, but elevating Guyon to MOTAhood is just insane! And contrary to hundreds of verses in the New Testament.

How in the world did I ever believe this nonsense? Hopefully dear brother Hodos and others in Viet Nam will all be delivered from MOTA idolatry propagated by LSM.
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Old 10-10-2020, 04:03 AM   #35
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To whom the name, the kingdom and the will belong?

Matthew 6:9-10, “Pray, then, in this way: Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven”.
The Lord teaches us to pray for God's Name to be glorified, for His Kingdom to reign, and His Will to be done on earth today. These three events occur in a limited way in the congregations of LSM in Vietnam.

1. About Use Of Names:
Witness Lee wrote the following words in the preface of LSM's hymn book, printed for the first time as follows: “for the omission of the author’s and composer’s name from the top of each hymn” in order to hinder “the reader to give glory to the man instead of to the Lord, the true inditer of each hymn…”.
These are the lies of Witness Lee, for in the morning revival book with name of Witness Lee clearly printed on the cover, for the purpose of honoring a human being, robbed the glory of our glorious God's Name. In Viet nam churches, Witness Lee is increasingly praised, mentioning his name always in the meetings, "W.L. says that…, WL. said this. ....".

2. About the Kingdom:
The Kingdom of God speaks of the realm of exercise of God's rulership. The kingdom of God was not clearly seen in the hearts of the LSM saints in Vietnam, but the kingdom of Witness Lee was clearly evident. The elders in Vietnam absolutely guard and watch for each saint in the LSM's organizational apparatus, making them no longer a flock of sheep enjoying in the pastures, for elders fear that some sheep will escape, and run away from LSM.

3. About Will:
In the LSM churches in Vietnam, God's will is only a symbolic character, and is ignored. Witness Lee's will and commandments were strictly enforced, for example, to obey reciting the revival morning book during the meetings, to re-preach the sermons given by the LSM, not to lecture outside the stream, to organize a new Nicolaitan party, including the ranks such as co-workers, elders, full-timers , Nazarites.

I pray that God will soon restore His Name to glory, build His Kingdom and fulfill His irrevocable will in the recovery congregations in Vietnam before Lord Jesus comes back. Amen.

Hodos
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Last edited by Hodos; 10-10-2020 at 05:29 AM. Reason: lacking the bible verse in the text
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:48 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hodos View Post
1. About Use Of Names:
Witness Lee wrote the following words in the preface of LSM's hymn book, printed for the first time as follows: “for the omission of the author’s and composer’s name from the top of each hymn” in order to hinder “the reader to give glory to the man instead of to the Lord, the true inditer of each hymn…”.
These are the lies of Witness Lee, for in the morning revival book with name of Witness Lee clearly printed on the cover, for the purpose of honoring a human being, robbed the glory of our glorious God's Name. In Viet nam churches, Witness Lee is increasingly praised, mentioning his name always in the meetings, "W.L. says that…, WL. said this. ....".
To many of us, what LSM has done here is exceedingly obnoxious and deceitful. Brother John Ingalls was almost single-handedly responsible for the Hymns and Recovery Version.

Then after he demanded that Philip Lee be held accountable for victimizing numerous sisters in the LSM offices, John Ingalls name and reputation were destroyed by LSM.

Then, because LSM copyrights everything they publish, after they expelled John Ingalls, they prevented him from using the hymns he had personally written. They removed every reference to John Ingalls in the Hymns, the Recovery Version, and other publications. Only Lee's name is permitted.

LSM's behavior is nothing less than reprehensible.
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Old 10-14-2020, 07:07 AM   #37
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Hi Trapped,
One saint in Vietnam just had bought one copy of e- book of "Spiritual Abuse" as a gift to me. This book is useful and obvious to us, the ones to be abused in LSM for a long time.
Thank You so much
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Old 10-14-2020, 06:47 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Hodos View Post
Hi Trapped,
One saint in Vietnam just had bought one copy of e- book of "Spiritual Abuse" as a gift to me. This book is useful and obvious to us, the ones to be abused in LSM for a long time.
Thank You so much
Hi Hodos,

I read your post numerous times through the day today as it gave me much joy. I'm so glad to hear, and thank the Lord for the saint who kindly bought you a copy of the book as a gift! I hope the God of love and mercy, and the Son of God who came to release people from their oppression (rather than put them under LSM-type oppression) and free people so they would actually be free is shown to you as much as it was shown to me while you read the book.

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Old 10-14-2020, 08:30 PM   #39
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Hi Trapped,
Praise The Lord! It is a wonderful thing, this man who had just bought this e-book for me as a gift, is the one LSM saint who had said to me these following words (I think that You remember him)--
"A young saint told me in 2013: “I believe through W.N. and W.L. the Lord's recovery come up to a zenith, and that culmination is the daily reading of Morning revival holy word published by the LSM. I cannot leave W.L. to follow Titus Chu or John So, because their teachings and books are far behind and inferior to the books of W.L.".
May God deliver him out off LSM oppressions.
I am praying and sometimes saying some things to him, and to some other ones that still opening their hearts to me. I hope that God will do His wonderful things. I cannot do any thing.
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Old 10-17-2020, 02:20 AM   #40
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A PRAYER FOR THE RECOVERED SAINTS IN VIETNAM-
Amos 9:11-15 (A. S. V.)-
In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old; that they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the nations that are called by my name, saith Jehovah that doeth this. Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt. And I will bring back the captivity of my people Israel, and they shall build the waste cities, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and drink the wine thereof; they shall also make gardens, and eat the fruit of them. And I will plant them upon their land, and they shall no more be plucked up out of their land which I have given them, saith Jehovah thy God.
-
O Lord, rebuild the house of God,
The tents collapsed, the walls fell;
Ruined scene, please restore well,
Rebuild us as if the original one.
.
May we restore a one newer,
Exiting the religious system of power,
The dry meetings were empty,
Adoring one human being priority.
.
For ploughman follows the heels of reaper,
He sower before those who thrash grapes;
All mounds melted into sweet wine,
Mountains are oozed full of nectar.
.
May Thou switch fortune of saints,
We wish rebuilt meetings ruined,
The vine grower will drink new wine,
The gardener ate the ripe fruit.
.
Lord, plant us in Christ practically,
Don't pluck from reality of Good Land,
Please stop the system high authority,
Human power oppression by evil hand.
.
From forty years house restored,
Now becoming one Babel revived,
Have mercy on the slaved saints,
Restoration of a spiritual one lived.
.
Lord, Thou promised this to people Israel,
I would like for Vietnam to apply,
Our ruined scene would soon removed,
Glorious resurrection scene clearly.

Hodos
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Old 11-10-2020, 02:41 AM   #41
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DO NOT SET UP FOR THEE ANY IMAGE:

Deuteronomy 16:22 (Jubilee Bible) “Neither shalt thou set THEE up any image, which the LORD thy God hates”.
It is disastrous that several English versions lack the word "for thee" in this verse.

--1 Samuel 15:12, “it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set himself up a monument”.
--2 Samuel 18:18, “Now Absalom, while he was alive, had taken and reared up for himself a pillar, which is in the king’s valley; for he said, I have no son to keep my name in remembrance. And he called the pillar after his own name, and it is called unto this day, Absalom’s place. {Heb. hand}”

--- Billy Graham, a famous evangelist, when he was alive, agreed to have his statue erected and his son to attend a inauguration of that statue.
--- After his martyrdom, Paul only saved his memories of the 14 epistles in the New Testament Bible. This is not a venerable pillar.
--- Lee Kuan Yew was a Singapore prime minister, he had ordered in advance that his body is burned and not built into a shrine.
--- But a man, dubbed a MOTA, certainly ordered people to build his mausoleum (royal tomb) in a way that would cost much God -money.

In 1999, for the first time, LSM chose two people being called VietNamese restoration community leaders to visit the LSM facility in the United States. When they returned to Vietnam, these two protested LSM hung two portraits frames of W.N and W.L. in a room that was probably a museum room, and they condemned it to idolatry.

But in 2006, after LSM formed a executive committee of Vietnam, and gradually they gave this committee a lot of money, so since then WL's name has been venerable and revered in the meetings, and in all Viet Nam's recovery communities that began in 1980. Tragically, 2006 can be considered an “Ichabod day” of all recovered saints in Vietnam -"The glory has departed from..” the so-called congregations in Viet Nam (1 Samuel 4:21 22). Since then Witness Lee robbed the Lord’s glory among the restored people of Vietnam.

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Old 11-14-2020, 06:11 PM   #42
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Hodos, I agree with your "Ichabod day" assessment. It is interesting that the local church points to the Old Testament ground of the temple as proof that "the church should be on the right ground". But in 1 Samuel we have the temple being on the right ground, but when the ark of the covenant is no longer there, God's glory leaves. The ark of the covenant contains the tablets with the 10 commandments, covered with the mercy seat which was sprinkled with blood once a year.

But the co-workers don't recognize the seriousness of sin or the treasure of the blood. Instead, they downplay sins, and cover sins with their own actions and schemes (rather than what God wants, which is for us to acknowledge sins so HE can be the one to cover us). And so, as in 1 Samuel, God's glory has also left the local church. So they can claim to "be on the right ground", but if we look at their idolizing of Lee and their covering up sins of their own accord, we can say with certainty that God's glory doesn't remain in that "temple".
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Old Yesterday, 01:48 AM   #43
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THE FAKE TRUTHS

Can the truth be fake? Satan is the monkey. He can "call evil good, and good evil; who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20)

In John 8:32 the Lord said to us, "and ye shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free". But among the restored saints in Vietnam, the so-called peak truths imprisoned them, and their eyes were gouged out like ancient Zedekiah, last king of Israel, and led them back to Babylon (Jeremiah 52:11).

In 1970 there was the sowing of divine restored seeds in Vietnam. From 1980 God raised up many people to sell everything they had, such as pastorate, houses, and some should to be in prison in order to "buy the truth,.. wisdom, and instruction, and intelligence" (Proverbs 23: 23). They were enjoying a limited spiritual portion while they had little practical experiences with simple grasping of some pure truths of God. But since 1996, LSM has brought many top truths to cram, to brainwash and to poison the innocent souls of recovered Vietnamese saints. It is until today, after there was having more than 3,000 restored saints, we have in a minority discovery by God's mercy that those peak truths are almost false truths, such as:

-- One church one city,
-- The fixed delegate authority of someone,
-- Get rid of mind, eliminate understanding and be stupid,
-- Remove your own will to live a life of no opinion with your superiors
-- The ministry of the age of one person is the Lord's New Testament ministry, so it is not necessary to read another author's books, but only read, and re-preach sermons of that special person.
-- The organic Body of Christ....gradually became an organization, and then we knew that it was a fake Body, a systematic machine, an evil, tyrannical religious organization.

These lofty but false truths have already imprisoned 90% of the restored saints in Vietnam. We, a minority of people with God's mercy, have been released from the LSM system in Vietnam, but we find ourselves incapable of freeing our friends imprisoned in this fake Body.

Please mercifully pray for us.
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