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Old 06-13-2017, 03:51 PM   #1
leastofthese
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Default How do I know if I found the one true church?

1. Make sure this church is located in a city and has created a 501c3 organization that follows the naming scheme “The Church in (insert city name)”. Does it follow a different naming scheme? – NOT the one true church.
2. Make sure that this church is affiliated with the Living Stream Ministry, Witness Lee, and the blended brothers. Vague awareness of the LSM or an informal relationship to the LSM is unacceptable and that church would NOT be considered the one true church.
3. Propagating LSM literature within and outside the church is a must. Morning revival, Recovery version bibles, LSM hymnal, Witness Lee books MUST be sold on site. Only exception to the rule – Watchman Nee literature may also be sold.
4. Members will only read from LSM material. If a member ventures away from pre-approved reading, that person must be shamed and made to feel like they failed the Church and their God. Furthermore, if a member does not keep a library of at least 10 pre-approved books – they must be shamed accordingly. The more books you own the better. All e-books purchased must be accompanied by the corresponding paper or hardback purchase.
5. Each member will attend at least 3 meetings per week. Including 2 meetings on the Lord’s day.
6. Members will never use the word “Sunday”.
7. Members will never admit, under any circumstances, that their church is a denomination. Denominations are bad and cannot be part of the one true church.
8. Slandering other Christ followers and making self-righteous accusations must happen anytime two or more gather.
9. You will sense a spirit of confusion. Members must lead one another to ignore these feelings. When in doubt, quote the morning revival, Witness Lee, or at the very least say something “spiritual”.
10. Members learn the lingo – and repeat it often. The more cliché statements the better. When in doubt always default to “O Lord Jesus”
11. Members hold one another accountable for approving of any and all statements that follow the LSM doctrine. The use of “Amen” is the most appropriate response.
12. Members will overuse and accidentally misuse “Amen”. Disregard immediately, they were likely in their flesh.
13. All members must keep a superficial, surface level relationship with one another. This keeps things simple and neat. No mess.
14. Members must attend at least one “training” per year, preferably in Anaheim. Showing slight disapproval for those who do not attend is appropriate.
15. Members will learn and live the dress code.
16. It is highly preferred that you begin to speak using the same cadence and tonality as the other members. This is NOT a requirement, but is directly correlated to your standing before the Lord.


What else did I miss?
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

If I didn't have family members still in the group, including an elder in one city, I would double up laughing.

But I'm sure you missed some. Such as:

Always refer to the members as the "saints." if challenged by someone that it seems you are referring only to your own members and not other Christians, admit that it is a error of habit, then ignore them and continue on.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:39 PM   #3
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

All members must regularly pray in the approved 6.7.6.7 meter.
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Old 06-13-2017, 04:41 PM   #4
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
1. Make sure this church is located in a city and has created a 501c3 organization that follows the naming scheme “The Church in (insert city name)”. Does it follow a different naming scheme? – NOT the one true church.
2. Make sure that this church is affiliated with the Living Stream Ministry, Witness Lee, and the blended brothers. Vague awareness of the LSM or an informal relationship to the LSM is unacceptable and that church would NOT be considered the one true church.
3. Propagating LSM literature within and outside the church is a must. Morning revival, Recovery version bibles, LSM hymnal, Witness Lee books MUST be sold on site. Only exception to the rule – Watchman Nee literature may also be sold.
4. Members will only read from LSM material. If a member ventures away from pre-approved reading, that person must be shamed and made to feel like they failed the Church and their God. Furthermore, if a member does not keep a library of at least 10 pre-approved books – they must be shamed accordingly. The more books you own the better. All e-books purchased must be accompanied by the corresponding paper or hardback purchase.
5. Each member will attend at least 3 meetings per week. Including 2 meetings on the Lord’s day.
6. Members will never use the word “Sunday”.
7. Members will never admit, under any circumstances, that their church is a denomination. Denominations are bad and cannot be part of the one true church.
8. Slandering other Christ followers and making self-righteous accusations must happen anytime two or more gather.
9. You will sense a spirit of confusion. Members must lead one another to ignore these feelings. When in doubt, quote the morning revival, Witness Lee, or at the very least say something “spiritual”.
10. Members learn the lingo – and repeat it often. The more cliché statements the better. When in doubt always default to “O Lord Jesus”
11. Members hold one another accountable for approving of any and all statements that follow the LSM doctrine. The use of “Amen” is the most appropriate response.
12. Members will overuse and accidentally misuse “Amen”. Disregard immediately, they were likely in their flesh.
13. All members must keep a superficial, surface level relationship with one another. This keeps things simple and neat. No mess.
14. Members must attend at least one “training” per year, preferably in Anaheim. Showing slight disapproval for those who do not attend is appropriate.
15. Members will learn and live the dress code.
16. It is highly preferred that you begin to speak using the same cadence and tonality as the other members. This is NOT a requirement, but is directly correlated to your standing before the Lord.


What else did I miss?
This list contains many nonfactual and misleading statements that indicates to me you aren't a member of the local churches.

“The Church in (insert city name)”. is not correct. it is "the church in <city name>", as a description, not a name. To give an example, the "family of Evan" is not a name, but what my family is. We do not call ourselves the "Family of Evan".


Point 4 is not correct. No one is shamed for not having more than 10 books, and we do not require a person to buy a hard cover book if they purchase the e-book. Many make no purchases at all, just use freely available material.

Point 5 also not correct. There is no requirement to attend a number of meetings each week. Two meetings on the Lord's Day is a 1 hour Lord's Table followed by 1 hour prophesying meeting and they are both considered as if they are one meeting - one follows the other. That is 2 hours total and many denominations have a 2 hour service on a Sunday.

Point 6. I use the word Sunday and am a member, so that disproves that one. You must have us confused with Seventh Day Adventists.

Point 8. There is no requirement to make accusations or slander. It rarely happens in my experience because we focus on the Morning Revivals which are predominantly about high peak revelation

Point 11 - Amen is the standard word used for agreement in Christianity, dating back centuries.

Point 12 - Deuteronomy 27 contains many Amens.

Point 13 - what you call superficiality is possibly we are trying to avoid gossip. Most denominations undertake gossip sessions after the service.
To have a private meeting with someone we'd normally go to a quiet place eg a spare room to talk in depth.

Point 14 - there is no requirement to attend trainings it is only encouraged. Some people are discouraged from attending the trainings if the elder feels they are not ready for it.

Point 15 - there is no dress code, even for breaking and distributing the bread and wine. In some denominations, a priest can get fired for distributing the bread and wine while not wearing their clerical dress.
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Old 06-13-2017, 07:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
This list contains many nonfactual and misleading statements that indicates to me you aren't a member of the local churches.
Do you not see the irony in the various claims the LCM makes? What they practice is what serves to prove that they are nothing special.

There are various teachings that are enticing to people who are part of the LCM. We could spend all day discussing those teachings, but at the end of the day none of those things are relevant to the vast majority of Christians. Nothing that the LC teaches or practices helps people to grow as Christians or bring other people to Jesus. It just teaches LC members how to be prideful about their supposed ‘standing’ as the church and gloat over the notion that they are ‘recovered’ when everyone else isn't.

Every wonder why a group which purports to be something so significant remains so stagnant, insignificant and unknown? It’s not because of ‘opposition’. It’s because what they practice does not compliment any of their claims. Outsiders do see that. Actions speak louder than words.
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Old 06-13-2017, 09:03 PM   #6
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

Least of these,

What a silly straw man list.

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Old 06-13-2017, 11:00 PM   #7
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

Least of these,

This is gold, thank you. You wrote everything that I wanted to express--but did not have the patience to--about the real distinctive of the "church in the locality."
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
Do you not see the irony in the various claims the LCM makes? What they practice is what serves to prove that they are nothing special.
Most of the things leastofthese posted are not "various claims the LCM makes".

For example, we never claim that it is a requirement to make accusation or slander. That itself is a slanderous and accusatory statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
There are various teachings that are enticing to people who are part of the LCM. We could spend all day discussing those teachings, but at the end of the day none of those things are relevant to the vast majority of Christians.
You tell me, does the bible say that things will get better or worse in the end times? The majority of things will be worse, and the majority of Christians will be characterized by this:

2 Tim 3:5 " Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."

So side with the majority of Christians if you like, but I think the bible shows it is the minority who actually follow Christ.


Quote:
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Nothing that the LC teaches or practices helps people to grow as Christians or bring other people to Jesus.
Given that spiritual growth is God's work, I cannot see how you can presume to make such a statement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
It just teaches LC members how to be prideful about their supposed ‘standing’ as the church and gloat over the notion that they are ‘recovered’ when everyone else isn't.
There's no need to be jealous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
Every wonder why a group which purports to be something so significant remains so stagnant, insignificant and unknown? It’s not because of ‘opposition’. It’s because what they practice does not compliment any of their claims. Outsiders do see that. Actions speak louder than words.
You are looking at the outward things.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:17 AM   #9
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

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You are looking at the outward things.
That is so funny.

Hypocrisy defined is the outward behavior doesn't match the inward.

The irony of it all is that Lee and the Blendeds (remember X-Ray Graver) always claimed to see and to know the evil in others' hearts when their actual outward conduct was upright.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
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Most of the things leastofthese posted are not "various claims the LCM makes".

For example, we never claim that it is a requirement to make accusation or slander. That itself is a slanderous and accusatory statement.
I can think of numerous instances where I heard slander directed towards other Christians, and most of the people speaking such things had never been part of any other Christian group. So if they were to make some generalization about other Christians, how would they even know if were true or not?

The fact is they had no idea and were just repeating WL's slander. WL is on the record saying things such as "Christendom has become an organ of Satan." How is that not slanderous? How is calling Christianity 'degraded' not slanderous?
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:40 AM   #11
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

Quote:
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I can think of numerous instances where I heard slander directed towards other Christians, and most of the people speaking such things had never been part of any other Christian group. So if they were to make some generalization about other Christians, how would they even know if were true or not?

The fact is they had no idea and were just repeating WL's slander. WL is on the record saying things such as "Christendom has become an organ of Satan." How is that not slanderous? How is calling Christianity 'degraded' not slanderous?
Back around '03, I was in a home gathering with the college students. A young lady I knew came in and soon commented on pathetic Christianity after a song. It was quite warm in that non-A/C'd room and she was just bursting out of her skimpy clothes.

It then hit me. Is this what we have produced in our next generation?

I knew her folks for years, yet these young ones have learned only doctrines and judgments. They have become steeped with condemnation for others, which so easily rolls off their tongue, yet possess so little modesty and self-awareness as children of God.
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
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Back around '03, I was in a home gathering with the college students. A young lady I knew came in and soon commented on pathetic Christianity after a song. It was quite warm in that non-A/C'd room and she was just bursting out of her skimpy clothes.

It then hit me. Is this what we have produced in our next generation?

I knew her folks for years, yet these young ones have learned only doctrines and judgments. They have become steeped with condemnation for others, which so easily rolls off their tongue, yet possess so little modesty and self-awareness as children of God.
As far as I can tell, the LCM is full of people who are well-intentioned, and they are not out to deliberately judge others. However, there is a pervasive judgmentalism that exists, and it is easily identifiable. Evangelical wonders how I can make statements such as "Nothing that the LC teaches or practices helps people to grow as Christians or bring other people to Jesus."

The answer is actually quite simple. The very foundation of the LCM is based in the notion they are a 'recovery', thus assuming a superior position to everything else. That type of mindset goes against the basic message of the gospel, so to that extent the LC doesn't help people grow as Christians at all. If someone brings someone else into the LCM, and that person learns how to attack and slander other Christians, then that person hasn't been brought to know Jesus. In the LC, all kinds of seemingly positive testimonies can be heard, such as all those who stopped using drugs after coming into the LC. However, if end result of the 'help' people received was just for them to turn right around and start judging others, then perhaps it isn't so positive after all. I know such types of people in the LCM. I feel bad for them. Like I said, I don't think the attitude is always intentional, but sadly, that is the type of fruit seen in so many cases.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:05 PM   #13
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Charles Finney and other revivalists had negative things to say about Christianity but like us their goal was to revive not to kill.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:30 PM   #14
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

Evangelical,

Please start addressing what people have stated, and not throw out red herrings. Charles Finney has absolutely NOTHING to do with the matter at hand. I don't think I heard Witness Lee mention Finney's name even one time. Witness Lee clearly and strongly taught that the denomination/sect he founded was the only true Church. This is indisputable and well documented over the past 50+ years.

Simply address the matter/issue at hand. Don't bring up ministers from past centuries.

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Old 06-14-2017, 03:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
I can think of numerous instances where I heard slander directed towards other Christians, and most of the people speaking such things had never been part of any other Christian group. So if they were to make some generalization about other Christians, how would they even know if were true or not?

The fact is they had no idea and were just repeating WL's slander. WL is on the record saying things such as "Christendom has become an organ of Satan." How is that not slanderous? How is calling Christianity 'degraded' not slanderous?
It's not slanderous if it's true. We only have to look at the number of denominations and individual churches accepting of gay marriage for example to see how they are utilized by Satan.

One only has to go to this table

"Summary of denominational positions in North America and Europe"

and look at all the green boxes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homosexuality

Is that an example of degradation or not?

And what about the idol worship in the Catholic church? Degradation or not?

If it's true then it's not slanderous.

But the degradation is because of denominational ism.

But with the list of things in the OP, that is slanderous because they are untrue statements. For example "14. Members must attend at least one “training” per year" is simply not the case.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:11 PM   #16
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Evangelical wonders how I can make statements such as "Nothing that the LC teaches or practices helps people to grow as Christians or bring other people to Jesus."

The LC preaches the gospel so I think your statement is wrong. It amounts to saying that a person cannot be saved by LC gospel preaching, which our experience says the opposite.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:35 PM   #17
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It's not slanderous if it's true. We only have to look at the number of denominations and individual churches accepting of gay marriage for example to see how they are utilized by Satan.

And what about the idol worship in the Catholic church? Degradation or not?

If it's true then it's not slanderous.

But the degradation is because of denominational ism.

But with the list of things in the OP, that is slanderous because they are untrue statements. For example "14. Members must attend at least one “training” per year" is simply not the case.
Evengelical, you never address all of the corruption, bad practices, and false teachings at LSM. It's as if attacking all outsiders makes you look good.

Do you have any idea how many gays are in your LC's? Why is that so? If all degradation is because of denominational ism.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

You always default to homosexuality and idolatry when you haven't got a case.
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:41 PM   #18
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It's not slanderous if it's true. We only have to look at the number of denominations and individual churches accepting of gay marriage for example to see how they are utilized by Satan.
There you go again, throwing in another red herring. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the LC does also have gay members. I can think of several just in the area I am from, most of whom are likely still current members. So regardless of your position on that issue, if you are going to use that as an identifier of 'degradation' then you are obligated to hold the LCM to your same standard. But that isn't really the issue is it? You're just picking an issue in attempt to make the LCM look superior.

Of course, all of this is beside the point. As has been stated time and time again, what WL criticized when he was alive is not what is in front of us today. Times have changed, Christianity faces its own issues, and the churches and denominations do not necessarily function in the same way as in the past. So even if WL had valid criticism of Christianity, how can you be so sure that such criticism is still relevant today? Why do you pick contemporary issues in order to try to defend things WL said many years ago?
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Old 06-14-2017, 05:23 PM   #19
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There you go again, throwing in another red herring. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the LC does also have gay members. I can think of several just in the area I am from, most of whom are likely still current members. So regardless of your position on that issue, if you are going to use that as an identifier of 'degradation' then you are obligated to hold the LCM to your same standard. But that isn't really the issue is it? You're just picking an issue in attempt to make the LCM look superior.

Of course, all of this is beside the point. As has been stated time and time again, what WL criticized when he was alive is not what is in front of us today. Times have changed, Christianity faces its own issues, and the churches and denominations do not necessarily function in the same way as in the past. So even if WL had valid criticism of Christianity, how can you be so sure that such criticism is still relevant today? Why do you pick contemporary issues in order to try to defend things WL said many years ago?
I take UntoHim's point that Charles Finney had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

However, my point about the degradation is not a red herring because it is directly related and a sign of the degradation. If you disagree that homosexuality is a sign of degradation, then please offer your alternative definition for degradation?

As long as you and others consider every church in that table to be part of Christianity, and as long as those parts of Christianity are highlighted green, then I think "Christianity is degraded" is a factual statement.

If I believed that just having gay members is a sign of a degradation I would have said that. But I did not say that, I posted a wikipedia page that shows the positions of the denominations. It's one thing to have gay members, it's another to support gay marriage.

Times have certainly changed as the table shows, and 20 years ago that table would have been mostly red, and now there is a lot of green. The situation does not seem to be improving. So I think there is something to be said about degradation becoming worse than what it was years ago.

But that is just one aspect of degradation. Behind that is the turning away from God and the general spiritual degradation that the bible talks about will occur in the last days.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:00 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
It's not slanderous if it's true. We only have to look at the number of denominations and individual churches accepting of gay marriage for example to see how they are utilized by Satan.

One only has to go to this table

"Summary of denominational positions in North America and Europe"

and look at all the green boxes:
You're great Evan-g!

I'll just state what the common reader clearly knows. The problem with Lee's position (that you've adopted) is that it's not really about the denominations marked in "green" - you chose the example of gay marriage - but it could be any other issue that mark them "green".

You paint broad strokes of "degradation" "used by Satan" for any group that does not follow the teachings of Witness Lee - not denominationalism.

That's what is so obvious that it should hit you in the face. Also, my initial post was clearly satire - come on bro.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:13 PM   #21
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You're great Evan-g!

I'll just state what the common reader clearly knows. The problem with Lee's position (that you've adopted) is that it's not really about the denominations marked in "green" - you chose the example of gay marriage - but it could be any other issue that mark them "green".

You paint broad strokes of "degradation" "used by Satan" for any group that does not follow the teachings of Witness Lee - not denominationalism.

That's what is so obvious that it should hit you in the face. Also, my initial post was clearly satire - come on bro.
I did find some of it funny. We can, and do, laugh at ourselves sometimes.
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Old 06-14-2017, 08:36 PM   #22
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I did find some of it funny. We can, and do, laugh at ourselves sometimes.

Hey maybe you're not so bad after all!
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Old 06-14-2017, 10:10 PM   #23
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However, my point about the degradation is not a red herring because it is directly related and a sign of the degradation. If you disagree that homosexuality is a sign of degradation, then please offer your alternative definition for degradation?
I would not go so far as to attach 'degradation' to any particular issue, nor would I attempt to define it, because I am not interested in making sweeping generalizations about Christians. That serves no purpose.

Quote:
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As long as you and others consider every church in that table to be part of Christianity, and as long as those parts of Christianity are highlighted green, then I think "Christianity is degraded" is a factual statement.

If I believed that just having gay members is a sign of a degradation I would have said that. But I did not say that, I posted a wikipedia page that shows the positions of the denominations. It's one thing to have gay members, it's another to support gay marriage.

Times have certainly changed as the table shows, and 20 years ago that table would have been mostly red, and now there is a lot of green. The situation does not seem to be improving. So I think there is something to be said about degradation becoming worse than what it was years ago.

But that is just one aspect of degradation. Behind that is the turning away from God and the general spiritual degradation that the bible talks about will occur in the last days.
The churches which ordain gay ministers and support gay marriage are mostly mainline denominations, particularly those which have become increasingly socially liberal. It is worth noting that many of such denominations have had declining membership for many years. No doubt, that decline could be at least partially attributed to reaction or schisms related to positions that they have taken on a variety of social issues. It is also worth noting that just because a denomination takes a position on a certain issue, it doesn’t mean that everyone who is part of that denomination agrees with it.

It seems you don’t recognize the fact that many evangelical Christians groups are not supportive of the more liberal stances some denominations have taken on homosexuality. Thus, it is unfair to argue that because a select group of denominations are increasingly supportive of homosexuality, that Christianity as a whole is ‘degraded’ according to your definition of degradation. That chart you linked is not representative of Christianity as a whole, neither can all of Christianity ever be generalized by any one particular issue.
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:11 PM   #24
Evangelical
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
I don't think I heard Witness Lee mention Finney's name even one time.

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FYI for future reference, Witness Lee referred to Charles Finney in the following books at least that I know of:

Life Study of Exodus
Life-Study of Joshua, Judges & Ruth
The World Situation and God's Move
Fellowship Concerning the Lord's Up-to-date Move
Being Desperate and Living Uniquely for the Gospel
The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:01 AM   #25
UntoHim
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Charles Finney and other revivalists had negative things to say about Christianity but like us their goal was to revive not to kill.
Thanks for the Finney update, Evangelical, but you are still posting a lot of irrelevant, off-top things. You are clearly attempting to avoid, evade and deflect from the real issues at hand. Did Finney every proclaim that he was "the only person on earth speaking as God's oracle since 1945"? (paraph) Did Finney ever hire and fire elders or co-workers at his personal whim, and according to their personal loyalty himself? Did Finney ever have to relocate to a different continent because he ripped his followers off and was abusive to his fellow co-workers? Shall I go on?
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:47 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Thanks for the Finney update, Evangelical, but you are still posting a lot of irrelevant, off-top things. You are clearly attempting to avoid, evade and deflect from the real issues at hand. Did Finney every proclaim that he was "the only person on earth speaking as God's oracle since 1945"? (paraph) Did Finney ever hire and fire elders or co-workers at his personal whim, and according to their personal loyalty himself? Did Finney ever have to relocate to a different continent because he ripped his followers off and was abusive to his fellow co-workers? Shall I go on?
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UntoHim..you have now quoted the very post you told me had nothing to do with this topic. So I will explain that post better below. You might find it insightful, the relationship between Lee and Finney, if you had not considered it before. It might be the first time anyone on this forum has raised it. The fact that Lee referenced Finney a number of times as one of the Great Revivalists. It is only my conjecture but I am guessing that at some level, Lee was inspired by Finney, and others like him.

You are asking me questions unrelated to the matter of denominations and criticism /slander. Or what is the relationship between these questions and the recent discussion?

Finney was critical of the church and not well received in many churches. He had a number of weaknesses that parallel those said of Lee. That was the point I was making in relation to Lees criticism and it being labelled as slander. I assumed most people here knew of Charles Finney. That was my mistake for not clarifying. Great men of God like Finney and Lee often make criticism and are not well received. Just like Gods prophets to Israel.

Here is a connection between Finney and Lee from
http://enrichmentjournal.ag.org/2006...118_finney.cfm

"Finney looked down on formal training. His preaching style was sometimes criticized for its harsh, judgmental spirit."

"Finney was outspokenly Pelagian. His other theological beliefs mentioned earlier further revealed his revulsion of theological training. "

Finney also had weaknesses that limited his long-term usefulness to the church, and in some cases have caused great harm among the undiscerning.

The first was his lone-ranger mentality — me and the Bible only. For Finney, theology and church history were flyover territory. Because of this, he was often unteachable and uncorrectable. (We have noted his unwillingness to listen to his seniors at the New Lebanon Conference in the summer of 1827.)

For example, Finney wrote, “There is a vast ignorance in the churches on the subject of revivals. … There are very few who have any real consistent knowledge on the subject.”14 But great revivals had been occurring in North America and England since 1790. Probably the greatest revival in history, the Great Awakening, took place under Whitefield, Edwards, and Wesley in the 1740s. Ignoring recent history, Finney assumed he was the first to really understand revival.

Finney began his own religious quest,” notes Nathan Hatch, “by denying the force of inherited religious authority. He relied upon his own enlightened, albeit theologically untutored, reason.”15 This posture excluded him from historic confessional Christianity on many significant doctrinal issues. Some of these we have already noted.

His second weakness, which is related to the first, was the elevation of reason over revelation. Finney demanded that many biblical mysteries be pressed into rational human formulas. Finney struggled to “adjust the truths of Christianity into such a harmonious system of thought that no violence should be done to the dictates of reason,” observes Murray. “This, as he often said, was (after that of the actual conversion of souls) the great aim of his life.”16 Finney could not accept mysteries, like the congruence of the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.

Lessons
We can learn many lessons from Finney’s life. First, God delights to use imperfect vessels. God perfected His power through Finney’s weaknesses (2 Corinthians 13:4). This should encourage every pastor. Despite Finney’s imperfections, God delighted to use him. Despite our imperfections, He will use us as well.



I was not trying to say Finney did anything like you say Lee did. That should have been obvious by the paragraph of mine you quoted and the context of the post I was replying to. But I think we can learn a lot from that last paragraph Lessons - God delights to use imperfect vessels.
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Old 06-17-2017, 10:09 AM   #27
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

On the subject of Revivalists, I would say that they were effective so as long as they acted as problem-solvers. Notice how no one here has ever denied the possibility that Lee may have had valid criticism about the state of various Christian groups during his time.

For the sake of argument, lets say WL identified a set of problems that he sought to remedy, and his ministry encompassed what he believed to be that 'remedy'. That very well could have been the case, except for one thing. Even after 10 or 20 years of ministry, Lee was still speaking about so-called "degraded Christianity." If his ministry was meant to solve some kind of problem, and that problem was believed to have been solved, then why was everyone in the LC still so concerned about Christian groups on the outside? The fact that they were still so obsessed with the problem instead of the supposed 'solution' proves that his ministry never was a solution to anything.

In LC hymn #1273, the following lyrics are found:
For the church has fallen low, Thinking everything they know...
and
Overcome degraded Christianity!

When I read those kinds of lyrics, I wonder about their purpose. Again, the LC believes it to be the one true church. If they really believe that to be the case, and believe themselves to be in a state of 'recovery', then why do they so quickly point their fingers at Christianity?
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Old 06-17-2017, 01:10 PM   #28
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Default Re: How do I know if I found the one true church?

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Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
On the subject of Revivalists, I would say that they were effective so as long as they acted as problem-solvers. Notice how no one here has ever denied the possibility that Lee may have had valid criticism about the state of various Christian groups during his time.

For the sake of argument, lets say WL identified a set of problems that he sought to remedy, and his ministry encompassed what he believed to be that 'remedy'. That very well could have been the case, except for one thing. Even after 10 or 20 years of ministry, Lee was still speaking about so-called "degraded Christianity." If his ministry was meant to solve some kind of problem, and that problem was believed to have been solved, then why was everyone in the LC still so concerned about Christian groups on the outside? The fact that they were still so obsessed with the problem instead of the supposed 'solution' proves that his ministry never was a solution to anything.

In LC hymn #1273, the following lyrics are found:
For the church has fallen low, Thinking everything they know...
and
Overcome degraded Christianity!

When I read those kinds of lyrics, I wonder about their purpose. Again, the LC believes it to be the one true church. If they really believe that to be the case, and believe themselves to be in a state of 'recovery', then why do they so quickly point their fingers at Christianity?
Matthew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I believe that this verse is a factor in what has become of Lee's ministry, and his family business. He passed judgment on "poor degraded Christianity" and he is suffering the same judgment himself and the poor degraded Local Church. And here's another one:

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Can it be said that Lee's arrogant and prideful condemnation of his brothers in Christianity is the same as mocking God...an indication of your own deception? I would be hard pressed to say it isn't.

And there's this:
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Where is the love? What disciple judges his brothers as Lee has done, and those who follow in his steps. I guess we could take the rest of the day to quote verses that confirm that Lee isn't who he said he was.

Nell
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Due to inaccurate translations of a few verses in the Bible, women have been hindered in their walk with the Lord and their roles in the church, having been relegated to a subservience which God never intended.

Last edited by Nell; 06-17-2017 at 01:50 PM.
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