The Lord Called Me Out Of The Church Life

sandwichboy · 10-05-2021, 01:53 AM

I was in LR for over 18 years. I attended the full-time training in Anaheim and also the apprenticeship in Austin TX and served full-time for 4 years after that.

I received a lot of help in the LR and do not regret my time there. The Lord Himself called me out, this is the story of how that happened:

About two years ago I was reading the gospel of Matthew and was touched by the part where the Lord was busy praying in the garden of Gethsemane and his disciples kept falling asleep. He then asked them if they are not even able to watch with Him for one hour. I took this as a challenge and started praying for one hour each morning. It was hard at the beginning but became rich and enjoyable. I spent much time just soaking up the Lord's presence. Spiritually I started growing a lot. After a few months, however, I hit a wall and it felt like my growth stopped. I was concerned about this and cried out to Lord about it.

The answer came quickly and the Lord showed me the verses in the book of Philipians where Paul considered all things to be lost on account of the excellency of Christ Jesus his Lord. The Lord showed me that I treasured the knowledge of Him more than knowing Him directly. I had a sense that I needed to put everything I knew about Him on the altar in exchange for knowing the person of Jesus directly. This also included my membership to the LR. I had invested years of my life in it and had climbed the ranks. This was a very difficult thing for me to do. I was also confused why Lord would require this of me seeing that it was after all His recovery and the vessel He chose to carry out His economy. I even thought that it might be the enemy trying to trick me. After some time however I did it, I took the deal.

Immediately I felt such a heavy burden drop off me. I felt released and free and happy. The Lord became so rich and sweet to me. He really became "my Lord" and not just "the Lord". I bowed my knees and surrendered to Him. I could no longer serve anyone or anything else just the Lord Himself.

The church life actually became more enjoyable after this. I was no longer bound by it and could enjoy the Lord freely. The Lord also revealed to me that He loved me a lot and that I was not just a cog in the machine of His economy. This enabled me an even deeper surrender. I was always a bit hesitant, thinking that He only cared for His great plan and was willing to let me undergo all kinds of suffering to accomplish His purpose. Oh, how sweet it was to see the Lord in that way. It was so easy to surrender to a person that loved me and cared for me. I happily became His slave.

Somehow due to this, my temperature became a bit hot for the saints and they started to get a bit suspicious of me. At the same time, a brother that I was close to got quarantined because he felt that the ministry and Witness Lee was over exalted and that it offended the throne of Jesus. He felt that saints were not so much under the Lord's headship but were instead governed by the ministry and the system of the Lord's recovery. He voiced his feelings publicly and the brothers silenced him by sending an email to all the localities asking them to not fellowship with him anymore.

This was a concern to me. How can we remove a person from the fellowship if we are the genuine church, meeting on the ground of oneness? Not believing that WL is the minister of the age cannot be the reason for being quarantined. That would mean that the ministry and our relationship to it is the ground on which we meet and not the ground of oneness that includes all believers holding to the basic items of the faith. So that means we are a division and not practicing the genuine church life.

I wanted to know this for a fact and not just get convincing words that would sway my feeling. So I did an experiment. My hypothesis was that if I told the brothers that I no longer believed that WL is the minister of the age and they still accepted me it would confirm that we are on the proper ground. If they rejected me that would indicate that we are on a different ground.

So I deployed my hypothesis in an elder's meeting, I myself being one. I made the statement, "I no longer believe that WL is the minister of the age".

I was immediately asked to step down as an elder. For a few weeks after this, the more senior brothers desperately tried to reason with me. I asked hard questions about the ground of oneness and the ministry which they could not answer. I tried to fellowship about it with other saints and was quickly silenced myself. I thus concluded that submission to the ministry is in fact a requirement to be in a local church and thus it is not on the proper ground and that it is, in fact, a division.

This also answered a question I had for many years. Why is there hardly any blessing in the LR? If it is really God's move on the earth why is He not helping us out a bit? Should we not be seeing tremendous growth, impact, and increase instead of laboring year after year without seeing any of that. My answer to this was always that it is the Lord's move and that is why the enemy is resisting it with all his force. I no longer believe that. I now see that the problem is in fact that we do not honor the Lord's headship but instead are governed by something else.

I now clearly see that the only way to become truly living and vital is to surrender to the Throne with nothing in between. I think that the LR is like Laodicea where the Lord is standing outside the door and knocking. If you hear His voice and open to Him, He will come in and dine with you and you with Him.

Under His throne.
Your brother.

Ohio · 10-05-2021, 07:09 AM

Welcome to the forum sandwichboy!

Once the farce about WL as the "Minister of the Age" vanishes, you will find other false teachings like man becoming God, and the ground of oneness, will rapidly get exposed. Here on the forum we have learned to test all things against the word of God, as Paul instructed us. (I Thess 5.21)

UntoHim · 10-05-2021, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandwichboy

This was a concern to me. How can we remove a person from the fellowship if we are the genuine church, meeting on the ground of oneness? Not believing that WL is the minister of the age cannot be the reason for being quarantined. That would mean that the ministry and our relationship to it is the ground on which we meet and not the ground of oneness that includes all believers holding to the basic items of the faith. So that means we are a division and not practicing the genuine church life.

Blessed are you sandwichboy, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but our Father who is in heaven! Many of us spent decades under the same spell and under the same hypocrisy. With our lips we claimed that we were "standing on the ground of genuine oneness", but our hearts and minds were firmly planted in the person and work of Witness Lee.

And so our "church life" was not actually built upon the rock of the revelation of "the Christ, the Son of the living God", or any other of the basic items of faith, it was built upon a mere mortal man and his personal so-called "Ministry for the Age". God has sent many messengers, both from within and from without the Local Church movement, but until recent years all have been rebuffed and rejected.

In my experience and observation (about 45 years now) from both the inside and outside, it does take a revelation from God himself to escape the strong gravity that holds us to the Local Church system of error. For some, they need to get knocked off their high horse with a bolt of lightning and the audible voice of the Lord himself, and for others it only takes a whisper of that still small voice. For most of us, it's probably something in between. In any event, it does take a revelation from our Father who in heaven. For many of us it was a revelation that got us into the Local Church movement (we called it "the vision of the church") and it takes a revelation to get us free from that system of error.
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Sons to Glory! · 10-05-2021, 09:44 AM

That was an awesome testimony, bro!!! The Lord is so faithful!

About when did this take place? I know other leading ones who recently left via similar experiences from the Lord.

Zezima · 10-05-2021, 01:45 PM

Thanks for taking the time to write your testimony, it’s very encouraging to others on the fence about leaving and it helps affirm the beliefs of those who left. A few questions I’m just curious about if you don’t mind…
What makes you say the Lord isn’t blessing the LR?
What brought you to the conclusion that witness Lee isn’t the minister of the age?

sandwichboy · 10-06-2021, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Thanks for taking the time to write your testimony, it’s very encouraging to others on the fence about leaving and it helps affirm the beliefs of those who left. A few questions I’m just curious about if you don’t mind…
What makes you say the Lord isn’t blessing the LR?
What brought you to the conclusion that witness Lee isn’t the minister of the age?

Hi Zezima

I guess it is a bit of a general statement to say that the Lord is not blessing the LR. I mostly based that on the extreme effort it takes to bring someone into church life. Also according to my observation the lack of increase. It just seems that if something is really God's current move on the earth that there should be some assistance from Him, seeing that it is His move after all. In my experience serving in LR it mostly just takes a lot of human effort.

Regarding Witness Lee not being the minister of the age. I never really came to that conclusion. It is a subjective statement that cannot be proven. It is the same as saying that the Eiffel Tower is the best tower on the earth. If it cannot be proven then it is an irrelevant statement. I am fine with someone believing that, but I have a problem with it when it becomes the factor of our oneness or the ground we meet on. It should not be a determining factor in whether you are accepted by the local churches or not.

aron · 10-07-2021, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sandwichboy

Regarding Witness Lee not being the minister of the age. I never really came to that conclusion. It is a subjective statement that cannot be proven. It is the same as saying that the Eiffel Tower is the best tower on the earth. If it cannot be proven then it is an irrelevant statement.

The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Where in the NT does it say that there's one ministry per age? Only Jesus gets that title. Not Paul - Paul was the "apostle to the uncircumcision, just as Peter was to the circumcision". Paul never claimed primacy, nor did his ministry supersede another.

The claim by WN/WL that there's one ministry per age directly benefits the one making the claim. So it's suspect that there's bias, and motive, since humanity is not perfected. Any claim to there being one person in charge (not Jesus) as "deputy God" should be held with extreme care until it's shown definitively. Otherwise it's probably what it looks to be - someone making up the rules as they go, to benefit themselves.

If you look at the pattern of church history, you see periods where God was evidently doing something of import in various locations, yet neither location was subservient to the ministry evident in the other. Think of Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards. There was some communication, some acknowledgement, some fellowship, but where was the primacy? Nowhere. Nor was there, for that matter, when James and John gave Paul the "right hand of fellowship" to minister abroad.

Where did Philip tell the Ethiopian to report to HQ? Didn't happen. Yet Christianity thrives in Ethiopia 20 centuries after the book of Acts, without evidently ever having the "headship" of some ministry of the age.

And that one gets disfellowshipped simply for pointing out the obvious is testament to what sinking sand it's built on.

Zezima · 10-07-2021, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The burden of proof is on the one who makes the claim. Where in the NT does it say that there's one ministry per age? Only Jesus gets that title. Not Paul - Paul was the "apostle to the uncircumcision, just as Peter was to the circumcision". Paul never claimed primacy, nor did his ministry supersede another.

The claim by WN/WL that there's one ministry per age directly benefits the one making the claim. So it's suspect that there's bias, and motive, since humanity is not perfected. Any claim to there being one person in charge (not Jesus) as "deputy God" should be held with extreme care until it's shown definitively. Otherwise it's probably what it looks to be - someone making up the rules as they go, to benefit themselves.

If you look at the pattern of church history, you see periods where God was evidently doing something of import in various locations, yet neither location was subservient to the ministry evident in the other. Think of Whitefield, Wesley, Edwards. There was some communication, some acknowledgement, some fellowship, but where was the primacy? Nowhere. Nor was there, for that matter, when James and John gave Paul the "right hand of fellowship" to minister abroad.

Where did Philip tell the Ethiopian to report to HQ? Didn't happen. Yet Christianity thrives in Ethiopia 20 centuries after the book of Acts, without evidently ever having the "headship" of some ministry of the age.

And that one gets disfellowshipped simply for pointing out the obvious is testament to what sinking sand it's built on.

The counter argument here is the pattern through out the Bible, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah.. etc. the Bible doesn’t say it explicitly, but it’s clear God uses specific people for specific things.

Did Lee ever call himself the minister of the age? Or was that what the “brothers” crowned him with?

Trapped · 10-07-2021, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

The counter argument here is the pattern through out the Bible, Abraham, Noah, Moses, Daniel, Jeremiah.. etc. the Bible doesn’t say it explicitly, but it’s clear God uses specific people for specific things.

Did Lee ever call himself the minister of the age? Or was that what the “brothers” crowned him with?

The counter to that counter argument from LSM is that all of those were leading up to one man - Jesus. They were all for a time, and some of them were explicitly types/shadows of Jesus.

But once Jesus came, He's the fulfillment. All authority was given to Him. If they try to say that there are more singular figures after Jesus (which they do, as they try to continue that line through the NT and after and onto the present day), then Jesus wasn't really the fulfillment.

The hilarious part is that they create this line of unique ministers one successive one after the other, and yet try to pretend that it's not something exactly like a papal lineage. It's classic "when they do it it's bad, when we do it it's God". The co-workers logical gymnastics is just a clown show.

Wrapped up in the concept of the minister of the age is the sibling of a teaching that the co-workers try to claim that God has "deputy authorities" who act as God's delegated authority on the earth. The very glaring problem with this is simple - neither God nor Jesus ever granted their authority to anyone else. God gave all authority to Jesus. And Jesus gave the disciples power and authority to cast out demons and heal disease (Luke 9:1). But that's authority over demons and disease. Jesus never granted His authority to anyone to be over anyone. The biblical record of that kind of thing is just not there. There is no pyramid structure. We each are connected directly to the Lord.

If you read Lee's The Vision of the Age, Lee traces his way through his contrived MOTA lineage, through the OT giants, into the New Testament, touching on Jesus, moving on to Peter, Paul, etc, through Luther, Wesley, etc, and finally, no joke, Witness Lee literally says "I'm not selling myself here, but....."

*side eye*

Says the man with a lucrative publishing business that makes more money the more people think he's special.......

As is typical for Lee, he didn't say it outright. But he built the house, laid the pathway, walked you up the pathway, and expected you to walk right through the door. So yes, he ultimately did claim it himself.

Numerous issues with MOTA teaching:

1. it's a known teaching often found in cults (different title maybe, but same concept)
2. it's too convenient that Lee crowned himself minister of the age, and the support for it came from his closest followers and subsequent followers after that. No one outside of Lee's controlling group thinks he's the, or even a, minister of the age. It's entirely of his own making.
3. New Testament support simply isn't there. Peter gave Paul the right hand of fellowship. Peter was an apostle to the Jews, Paul to the gentiles. Concurrently. The co-workers somewhere have Jesus nestled in the list of MOTA's like Jesus is just some regular MOTA chilling with the other MOTAs.
4. In the LC's case, the MOTA doctrine sticks a crowbar between believers and the cross of Christ. Witness Lee says if you don't follow the MOTA (or, if you don't follow the vision released by the MOTA, and, oh by the way, the way to follow the vision is to follow the one who releases the vision....the MOTA) then your service isn't accepted by God. The teaching makes your right-standing with God contingent on following Witness Lee! It's dead at the start line.

The co-workers have injected steroids into the teaching and have said some wacky things the past few years. Ron in particular. It's sad to think of all the people trapped in the LC who have been unduly influenced to believe it.

Trapped

Trapped · 10-08-2021, 08:20 PM

Welcome, sandwichboy!

Your testimony is very encouraging. Many former members in the LR want to do what they can to help people out of it, and sometimes we (I) get discouraged that I can't do much. It is encouraging to be reminded that the Lord is still working even when we feel like we can't.

You said: "The Lord also revealed to me that He loved me a lot and that I was not just a cog in the machine of His economy."

This is very touching. I remember feeling this way too - the cog feeling. I felt like what God wanted was "His church" and He would absolutely crush me and leave me obliterated if it meant He could get His church. I as a person didn't matter; only God's church mattered.

But what God wants, and what His church is, IS people! Somehow, the love that God has for each of us individually is waved away in the LC, and the "higher" vision of the church as some kind of entity separate from the people replaces it. But I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 12, which Lee used to teach that there should be no distinctions among the members and everyone should be subsumed into a bland featureless whole, but yet if you read it, is really about how each individual member is given specific gifts by the Lord and that He arranged everyone so those who need honor and help and encouragement would get it. (Two totally different representations of God!)

I grieve for the brother who was quarantined before you simply for his stance about "the ministry", and for the treatment you received in being made to step down. I can't imagine how he and you must have felt to be on the receiving end of those kind of actions from "elders". I am sorry you had to go through the experience of being silenced by saints who you probably formerly had a positive relationship. Any given person's attitude towards Witness Lee and the ministry truly is the litmus test in the local church.

You spoke a few times of the concept of the proper ground vs a division. I'm curious where you have landed on that concept, having left the LC. The LC speaks of "the ground" concept a few ways.......sometimes it's "the ground of locality", sometimes it's "the ground of oneness", sometimes it's "taking the ground".

To be honest, I never took "the ground of oneness" in the LC as ever meaning to include all believers holding to the basic items of the faith. I always took "ground of oneness" to simply be, in effect, shorthand to say "that they see the same vision we do that there should only be one church in each city", which is really the exact same thing as "the ground of locality". So "the ground of oneness" was always just code-speak for "you must meet with us in order to be one".

But "one meeting" or "one eldership over the believers in that city" is not one of the seven "ones", and so it was yet another thing that never made sense to me.

I personally think the concept of a "ground" needs to be tested, and tested thoroughly. It's kind of a flighty one to test, because like so many of the LC's teachings, it's not overtly taught in scripture, but is cobbled together by scraping verses from all over in order to create it.

Also the similar concept of "meeting in division". I've thought about this in light of the common faith and the metaphor of a human body to help us understand the Body of Christ. If we think of a human body, we know that there will be parts of the body that simply never meet, under healthy circumstances at least. Your right foot and your right knee, for example. Your left shoulder and your right hip. They will never, ever, ever, "come together". But they are still part of the one same body, because of, as the LC would put it, the shared life. My fingers usually "come together" with the other fingers, and don't do so much with the majority of the rest of my body most of the time. But all of this behavior is the normal functioning of a human body. It doesn't mean my fingers or hand is in division though, as long as my hand, and the other members of my body, are responding to what the head wants.

So the only issue I see with what the LC calls "meeting in division" is when the Head tells members of the Body to come together to meet a particular need, and those members refuse to do so. And what I keep seeing in Christianity today is that different churches who meet separately DO IN FACT come together in this way. But it is the local church who refuses to meet with any one else to meet a need, even if the Lord is knocking at the door, asking them to do so. I know there are groups of Christians who have a wrong attitude towards other Christians in other denominations. That's wrong. But the whole concept of "meeting in division" needs to be tested in light of what the Bible says. That's my two cents. Curious what you think about those LC teachings now?

Welcome again.

Trapped

Ohio · 10-09-2021, 04:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

You said: "The Lord also revealed to me that He loved me a lot and that I was not just a cog in the machine of His economy."

This is very touching. I remember feeling this way too - the cog feeling. I felt like what God wanted was "His church" and He would absolutely crush me and leave me obliterated if it meant He could get His church. I as a person didn't matter; only God's church mattered.

You/we felt this way because that was/is the attitude of Recovery leaders. They have always been willing to sacrifice people to accomplish their self-serving objectives. All are expendable and all means will justify the ends.

10-09-2021, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Welcome to the forum sandwichboy!

Once the farce about WL as the "Minister of the Age" vanishes, you will find other false teachings like man becoming God, and the ground of oneness, will rapidly get exposed. Here on the forum we have learned to test all things against the word of God, as Paul instructed us. (I Thess 5.21)

To call a man that is born again "A baby God" is correct if you have the proper understanding. Dogs beget dogs, cats beget cats, and God's many sons are "baby Gods" with this understanding. Your ignorance is due to dislike of Witness Lee. Read some church history and see what Athenasius says, "Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Athanasius also observed: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." Learn and stop being so ignorant brother.

Robert · 10-09-2021, 01:56 PM

Hi, brother "Sandwichboy"

I have a bit similiar experiance. God gave me a Grace to stay a soberminded all 25 years in LR. On one hand I was there, but on the other I had my own live with Bible and Lord Himself.
I was two years i Penatacost church so I felt like recovered but still having real experiance of smethng real from there.
I noticed some religion in church after I was two YO in the Lord. My eyes was opened. Then wind of teaching from WL came to my country.
Yeah! Idea of one church in one city drew me totally!
Unfortunately for so called "saints", I was readinig bible a lot and kew my Lord not froom desciption or tales but directlu and from Bible.
My senses were sharp and sensitive.
I was withnes of kicking out saints for no reason. Singing louder is no reason for me...
any way, I am glad and thankful for this testimoy.
God bless You!

10-05-2021, 01:53 AM	#1
sandwichboy Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Posts: 3	The Lord Called Me Out Of The Church Life I was in LR for over 18 years. I attended the full-time training in Anaheim and also the apprenticeship in Austin TX and served full-time for 4 years after that. I received a lot of help in the LR and do not regret my time there. The Lord Himself called me out, this is the story of how that happened: About two years ago I was reading the gospel of Matthew and was touched by the part where the Lord was busy praying in the garden of Gethsemane and his disciples kept falling asleep. He then asked them if they are not even able to watch with Him for one hour. I took this as a challenge and started praying for one hour each morning. It was hard at the beginning but became rich and enjoyable. I spent much time just soaking up the Lord's presence. Spiritually I started growing a lot. After a few months, however, I hit a wall and it felt like my growth stopped. I was concerned about this and cried out to Lord about it. The answer came quickly and the Lord showed me the verses in the book of Philipians where Paul considered all things to be lost on account of the excellency of Christ Jesus his Lord. The Lord showed me that I treasured the knowledge of Him more than knowing Him directly. I had a sense that I needed to put everything I knew about Him on the altar in exchange for knowing the person of Jesus directly. This also included my membership to the LR. I had invested years of my life in it and had climbed the ranks. This was a very difficult thing for me to do. I was also confused why Lord would require this of me seeing that it was after all His recovery and the vessel He chose to carry out His economy. I even thought that it might be the enemy trying to trick me. After some time however I did it, I took the deal. Immediately I felt such a heavy burden drop off me. I felt released and free and happy. The Lord became so rich and sweet to me. He really became "my Lord" and not just "the Lord". I bowed my knees and surrendered to Him. I could no longer serve anyone or anything else just the Lord Himself. The church life actually became more enjoyable after this. I was no longer bound by it and could enjoy the Lord freely. The Lord also revealed to me that He loved me a lot and that I was not just a cog in the machine of His economy. This enabled me an even deeper surrender. I was always a bit hesitant, thinking that He only cared for His great plan and was willing to let me undergo all kinds of suffering to accomplish His purpose. Oh, how sweet it was to see the Lord in that way. It was so easy to surrender to a person that loved me and cared for me. I happily became His slave. Somehow due to this, my temperature became a bit hot for the saints and they started to get a bit suspicious of me. At the same time, a brother that I was close to got quarantined because he felt that the ministry and Witness Lee was over exalted and that it offended the throne of Jesus. He felt that saints were not so much under the Lord's headship but were instead governed by the ministry and the system of the Lord's recovery. He voiced his feelings publicly and the brothers silenced him by sending an email to all the localities asking them to not fellowship with him anymore. This was a concern to me. How can we remove a person from the fellowship if we are the genuine church, meeting on the ground of oneness? Not believing that WL is the minister of the age cannot be the reason for being quarantined. That would mean that the ministry and our relationship to it is the ground on which we meet and not the ground of oneness that includes all believers holding to the basic items of the faith. So that means we are a division and not practicing the genuine church life. I wanted to know this for a fact and not just get convincing words that would sway my feeling. So I did an experiment. My hypothesis was that if I told the brothers that I no longer believed that WL is the minister of the age and they still accepted me it would confirm that we are on the proper ground. If they rejected me that would indicate that we are on a different ground. So I deployed my hypothesis in an elder's meeting, I myself being one. I made the statement, "I no longer believe that WL is the minister of the age". I was immediately asked to step down as an elder. For a few weeks after this, the more senior brothers desperately tried to reason with me. I asked hard questions about the ground of oneness and the ministry which they could not answer. I tried to fellowship about it with other saints and was quickly silenced myself. I thus concluded that submission to the ministry is in fact a requirement to be in a local church and thus it is not on the proper ground and that it is, in fact, a division. This also answered a question I had for many years. Why is there hardly any blessing in the LR? If it is really God's move on the earth why is He not helping us out a bit? Should we not be seeing tremendous growth, impact, and increase instead of laboring year after year without seeing any of that. My answer to this was always that it is the Lord's move and that is why the enemy is resisting it with all his force. I no longer believe that. I now see that the problem is in fact that we do not honor the Lord's headship but instead are governed by something else. I now clearly see that the only way to become truly living and vital is to surrender to the Throne with nothing in between. I think that the LR is like Laodicea where the Lord is standing outside the door and knocking. If you hear His voice and open to Him, He will come in and dine with you and you with Him. Under His throne. Your brother.

10-05-2021, 07:09 AM	#2
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 13,654	Re: The Lord Called Me Out Of The Church Life Welcome to the forum sandwichboy! Once the farce about WL as the "Minister of the Age" vanishes, you will find other false teachings like man becoming God, and the ground of oneness, will rapidly get exposed. Here on the forum we have learned to test all things against the word of God, as Paul instructed us. (I Thess 5.21) __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

10-05-2021, 09:44 AM	#4
Sons to Glory! Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 2,614	Re: The Lord Called Me Out Of The Church Life That was an awesome testimony, bro!!! The Lord is so faithful! About when did this take place? I know other leading ones who recently left via similar experiences from the Lord. __________________ LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS!

10-05-2021, 01:45 PM	#5
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 362	Re: The Lord Called Me Out Of The Church Life Thanks for taking the time to write your testimony, it’s very encouraging to others on the fence about leaving and it helps affirm the beliefs of those who left. A few questions I’m just curious about if you don’t mind… What makes you say the Lord isn’t blessing the LR? What brought you to the conclusion that witness Lee isn’t the minister of the age?

10-08-2021, 08:20 PM	#10
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: The Lord Called Me Out Of The Church Life Welcome, sandwichboy! Your testimony is very encouraging. Many former members in the LR want to do what they can to help people out of it, and sometimes we (I) get discouraged that I can't do much. It is encouraging to be reminded that the Lord is still working even when we feel like we can't. You said: "The Lord also revealed to me that He loved me a lot and that I was not just a cog in the machine of His economy." This is very touching. I remember feeling this way too - the cog feeling. I felt like what God wanted was "His church" and He would absolutely crush me and leave me obliterated if it meant He could get His church. I as a person didn't matter; only God's church mattered. But what God wants, and what His church is, IS people! Somehow, the love that God has for each of us individually is waved away in the LC, and the "higher" vision of the church as some kind of entity separate from the people replaces it. But I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 12, which Lee used to teach that there should be no distinctions among the members and everyone should be subsumed into a bland featureless whole, but yet if you read it, is really about how each individual member is given specific gifts by the Lord and that He arranged everyone so those who need honor and help and encouragement would get it. (Two totally different representations of God!) I grieve for the brother who was quarantined before you simply for his stance about "the ministry", and for the treatment you received in being made to step down. I can't imagine how he and you must have felt to be on the receiving end of those kind of actions from "elders". I am sorry you had to go through the experience of being silenced by saints who you probably formerly had a positive relationship. Any given person's attitude towards Witness Lee and the ministry truly is the litmus test in the local church. You spoke a few times of the concept of the proper ground vs a division. I'm curious where you have landed on that concept, having left the LC. The LC speaks of "the ground" concept a few ways.......sometimes it's "the ground of locality", sometimes it's "the ground of oneness", sometimes it's "taking the ground". To be honest, I never took "the ground of oneness" in the LC as ever meaning to include all believers holding to the basic items of the faith. I always took "ground of oneness" to simply be, in effect, shorthand to say "that they see the same vision we do that there should only be one church in each city", which is really the exact same thing as "the ground of locality". So "the ground of oneness" was always just code-speak for "you must meet with us in order to be one". But "one meeting" or "one eldership over the believers in that city" is not one of the seven "ones", and so it was yet another thing that never made sense to me. I personally think the concept of a "ground" needs to be tested, and tested thoroughly. It's kind of a flighty one to test, because like so many of the LC's teachings, it's not overtly taught in scripture, but is cobbled together by scraping verses from all over in order to create it. Also the similar concept of "meeting in division". I've thought about this in light of the common faith and the metaphor of a human body to help us understand the Body of Christ. If we think of a human body, we know that there will be parts of the body that simply never meet, under healthy circumstances at least. Your right foot and your right knee, for example. Your left shoulder and your right hip. They will never, ever, ever, "come together". But they are still part of the one same body, because of, as the LC would put it, the shared life. My fingers usually "come together" with the other fingers, and don't do so much with the majority of the rest of my body most of the time. But all of this behavior is the normal functioning of a human body. It doesn't mean my fingers or hand is in division though, as long as my hand, and the other members of my body, are responding to what the head wants. So the only issue I see with what the LC calls "meeting in division" is when the Head tells members of the Body to come together to meet a particular need, and those members refuse to do so. And what I keep seeing in Christianity today is that different churches who meet separately DO IN FACT come together in this way. But it is the local church who refuses to meet with any one else to meet a need, even if the Lord is knocking at the door, asking them to do so. I know there are groups of Christians who have a wrong attitude towards other Christians in other denominations. That's wrong. But the whole concept of "meeting in division" needs to be tested in light of what the Bible says. That's my two cents. Curious what you think about those LC teachings now? Welcome again. Trapped

10-09-2021, 01:56 PM	#13
Robert Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 278	Re: The Lord Called Me Out Of The Church Life Hi, brother "Sandwichboy" I have a bit similiar experiance. God gave me a Grace to stay a soberminded all 25 years in LR. On one hand I was there, but on the other I had my own live with Bible and Lord Himself. I was two years i Penatacost church so I felt like recovered but still having real experiance of smethng real from there. I noticed some religion in church after I was two YO in the Lord. My eyes was opened. Then wind of teaching from WL came to my country. Yeah! Idea of one church in one city drew me totally! Unfortunately for so called "saints", I was readinig bible a lot and kew my Lord not froom desciption or tales but directlu and from Bible. My senses were sharp and sensitive. I was withnes of kicking out saints for no reason. Singing louder is no reason for me... any way, I am glad and thankful for this testimoy. God bless You!