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Old 01-03-2018, 11:12 PM   #1
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I’ve often had a reaction to the Quotes and Quips post of the day on these boards.

Today’s Witness Wednesday quote really got me riled up because I used to believe this stuff. Here’s the quote:

“Our spirit is connected to the heavens by God as the Spirit. In spirit we are therefore in the heavens, in ascension. To live in ascension requires that we live, act, move, and do everything in our spirit. Thus, we must learn how to discern our spirit. If we do not know our spirit, if we do not know how to discern our spirit from our soul, we cannot be a spiritual person. When we live in our spirit, we are in ascension as the new creation in resurrection. We are a new person living in a new universe.”

I have a number of problems with the part in bold:

1. It makes us work for something “being ascended with Christ” that is already a given (see Ephesians 2 where we have been raised up together with Christ and seated together with Him in the heavens). What a waste of time!
2. It ends up being so self centered (I count eight “we”s) instead of God, Christ, and Holy Spirit centered.
3. This type of thinking leads to comparing oneself to other believers (“I know my spirit better than you” or “I don’t know my spirit like he or she does”) which leads to division.
4. What has this type of ministry produced in 50 years that makes us think there isn’t a problem with it, and head back into scripture instead of reading this stuff?
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:52 PM   #2
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3. This type of thinking leads to comparing oneself to other believers (“I know my spirit better than you” or “I don’t know my spirit like he or she does”) which leads to division.
Good point. Lee commonly made statements like his one about how we need to learn to do everything "in our spirit." I guess maybe it sounds good, but when people attempt to practice it, the first thing they look for is an example. Who knows how to live by their spirit? Who doesn't? Such considerations arise and everyone gets categorized accordingly.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:37 AM   #3
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Right. When I read the end of 1 Corinthians 2 in which Paul talks about what it is to be spiritual, he says the spirit of man knows the things of man, but The Spirit knows all things, and that we have the mind of Christ. I don’t see a place for Lee’s type of thinking in it. http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/2.htm
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:12 AM   #4
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Right. When I read the end of 1 Corinthians 2 in which Paul talks about what it is to be spiritual, he says the spirit of man knows the things of man, but The Spirit knows all things, and that we have the mind of Christ. I don’t see a place for Lee’s type of thinking in it. http://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/2.htm
There are reasons why Lee's minions elevated him above all. Part of it was teaching the impossible, e.g. "Living the god-man life for the building of the one body of Christ without opinion consummating in the New Jerusalem by being absolutely one with God's New Testament Economy." gasp!

Another part was his constant condemnation of all things Christian. In others words, Lee was supposedly living in the stratosphere and everyone else was a dismal failure. Then I learned about all the corruption at LSM, and the Wizard behind the curtain got exposed by a dog.

The lesson to learn is that all of us are accountable, and righteousness is the foundation of His kingdom.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:19 AM   #5
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I agree, Ohio. TLR is a good example of the saying “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

Lee’s saying that “we need to discern our spirit” usurps the role of God’s word and of God himself that penetrate and divide soul from spirit and judge the thoughts and intentions of our heart (i.e. discern). At least that’s the way I read Hebrews 4:12-13. http://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm

Or am I misinterpreting here?
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:58 AM   #6
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I agree, Ohio. TLR is a good example of the saying “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

Lee’s saying that “we need to discern our spirit” usurps the role of God’s word and of God himself that penetrate and divide soul from spirit and judge the thoughts and intentions of our heart (i.e. discern). At least that’s the way I read Hebrews 4:12-13. http://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm

Or am I misinterpreting here?
You need both. When I was in High School my brother and I decided to put a new stereo into the family car. We installed it ourselves and for hours could not get it to work. We went over the instructions repeatedly. Finally I asked my brother "what is this wire here?" He said "oh that is just the ground wire". I said "well let's attach it anyway, what do we have to lose?" Immediately the car filled with music.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:16 PM   #7
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You need both. When I was in High School my brother and I decided to put a new stereo into the family car. We installed it ourselves and for hours could not get it to work. We went over the instructions repeatedly. Finally I asked my brother "what is this wire here?" He said "oh that is just the ground wire". I said "well let's attach it anyway, what do we have to lose?" Immediately the car filled with music.
Need both what?
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:29 PM   #8
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Need both what?
12 volt power and ground.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:32 PM   #9
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I agree, Ohio. TLR is a good example of the saying “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

Lee’s saying that “we need to discern our spirit” usurps the role of God’s word and of God himself that penetrate and divide soul from spirit and judge the thoughts and intentions of our heart (i.e. discern). At least that’s the way I read Hebrews 4:12-13. http://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm

Or am I misinterpreting here?
Lee made it scientific. Remember all of his talk about "flipping the switch" of our spirit? His methodology needed neither God nor our faith, just open your mouth and shout.
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Old 01-06-2018, 02:40 AM   #10
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Need both what?
You quoted Heb 4, you also need to balance that with the verse "you search the scriptures but won't come to Me".
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Old 01-06-2018, 03:23 AM   #11
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2. It ends up being so self centered (I count eight “we”s) instead of God, Christ, and Holy Spirit centered.
I completely agree with the point. This has been one of my biggest problems with Lee the expositor. His message is self-focused. And he tries to get you to focus on self, on 'making it'.

Only Jesus Christ 'made it'. Lee's grave is with us to this day (cf Acts 2:29).

The unwavering core of the gospel is about ''this Jesus'' being raised to life (Acts 2:32). If we focus on this Jesus we get the Father. The Holy Spirit testifies about him, not about the 'NT believer enjoying grace'. If you focus on this Jesus you'll enjoy grace. If you focus on enjoying grace you'll delude yourself; you'll seek vain sensations, and get entangled in theoretical cobwebs, flipping imaginary "switches".
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:36 AM   #12
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I completely agree with the point. This has been one of my biggest problems with Lee the expositor. His message is self-focused. And he tries to get you to focus on self, on 'making it'.
Good observation.

I remember my early days in the church in Cleveburg, I marveled how much the Lord was doing in my life, with just a little cooperation.

Compare that to my final years, when I often wondered why so little was happening with so much hard work.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:19 AM   #13
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Good observation.
I remember my early days in the church in Cleveburg, I marveled how much the Lord was doing in my life, with just a little cooperation.
Compare that to my final years, when I often wondered why so little was happening with so much hard work.
In spite of the lack of tongue-speaking and healings, the LC is experientially charismatic: it whips members into an excited and altered state. Initially this provides some transformation as the participant's consciousness & behaviours are altered by the subjective orientation. Suddenly, heaven isn't far away but is in the next church meeting!

But eventually it becomes a dry cycle of meetings, training and conferences, and recruiting others for the same cycle. And the transformation process tails off.
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Old 01-06-2018, 09:52 AM   #14
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Good observation.
I remember my early days in the church in Cleveburg, I marveled how much the Lord was doing in my life, with just a little cooperation.
Compare that to my final years, when I often wondered why so little was happening with so much hard work.
I felt like Jesus failed me.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:56 AM   #15
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I felt like Jesus failed me.
Based on my decades of experience, I think your feelings are failing you, not the Lord Jesus. Sometimes it seems like you are badmouthing Him, and perhaps you hurt His feelings.
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Old 01-06-2018, 11:08 AM   #16
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In spite of the lack of tongue-speaking and healings, the LC is experientially charismatic: it whips members into an excited and altered state.
I had a few memorable "charismatic" experiences before contacting the LC, and many after. If they are truly of the Lord, then they will be life-changing and transformational. I wish every believer's experience was filled with these.

Unfortunately, like tongue-speaking and other charismatic experiences, it becomes our tendency to replicate them without the Lord. This can be very dangerous to our faith, because as soon as we face fiery trials, we may only know feelings, and before we know it, can have become spiritually bankrupt.
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:24 AM   #17
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I had a few memorable "charismatic" experiences before contacting the LC, and many after. If they are truly of the Lord, then they will be life-changing and transformational. I wish every believer's experience was filled with these.

Unfortunately, like tongue-speaking and other charismatic experiences, it becomes our tendency to replicate them without the Lord. This can be very dangerous to our faith, because as soon as we face fiery trials, we may only know feelings, and before we know it, can have become spiritually bankrupt.
Another thing that is interesting about the development of thought in the LC: I notice that they're not terribly interested in the actual person of Jesus Christ. Instead, "Christ" is some feeling like "peace" or "joy". So they chase sensations, hoping that it brings transformation and eternal reward.

Secondly, and related, are abstract concepts like "consummation" and "processed". Like if you jump up and down excitedly, wave your arms, and shout today's theology you'll make it.

And the person of Jesus, the person that Peter knew so well, the "This Jesus" that Peter saw suffering and triumphant in Acts 2:36, the actual person who Peter said "went around doing good works" in Acts 10:38, slowly recedes from view.

Instead, they'll sit in a circle in someone's living room and go over today's theological template. Instead of a person they get a concept.
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Old 01-07-2018, 12:48 PM   #18
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Another thing that is interesting about the development of thought in the LC: I notice that they're not terribly interested in the actual person of Jesus Christ. Instead, "Christ" is some feeling like "peace" or "joy". So they chase sensations, hoping that it brings transformation and eternal reward.
I'm sure Lee and his future Blendeds had much "peace and joy" when those who called for justice against Philip Lee were all silenced. The endless quest for "peace and joy" can cause our ruin.

That's quite a bit different from the "peaceable fruit of righteousness" in Heb 12.11.

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Instead, they'll sit in a circle in someone's living room and go over today's theological template. Instead of a person they get a concept.
That "concept" can contain endless doctrines, and many from the Bible.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:13 PM   #19
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You quoted Heb 4, you also need to balance that with the verse "you search the scriptures but won't come to Me".
Yes, great verse. I don't get how that balances Heb 4 on the topic of discerning soul from spirit though.

I understood the antennae and ground wire thing though. Heard that quite a few times in TLR

I'm loving what the rest of you are saying on this topic
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:29 PM   #20
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“Why do so many Christians pray such tiny prayers when their God is so big?”
Today’s quote can be taken as encouragement to pray “big things” to our big God. But does it also have a spirit of superiority over fellow believers in it?
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Old 01-10-2018, 07:53 PM   #21
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Why do so many Christians pray such tiny prayers when their God is so big?
This quote of Nee also caught my attention. Nee makes two faulty assumptions: 1) Christians only pray simplistic or 'tiny' prayers and 2) There is something wrong with praying for the more trivial things.

I remember as I was growing up in the LC, we were always told that we need to develop a relationship with the Lord through prayer. However, those leading us would always come in and try to qualify things. They told us not to pray "help me" prayers, because the Lord doesn't want to help us, he wants to be our all. They told us not to pray for trivial things because it didn't advance God's economy. It thus left us in a state of wondering what we could pray for. One of the things that this resulted in is that we developed a tendency to try to come up with prayers that would 'impress' everyone, especially in large gatherings.

I am reminded of what Jesus said:
Matt 6:5-7 And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

The Bible would suggest that what some in the LC might call 'weighty' prayers are nothing more than vain prayers. I'm not saying that all such prayers are vain, however, it could be a lot more than people in the LC realize. I remember attending prayer meetings, we would pray for an hour or more - God's economy this, Lord's move that. Most of the time I had no clue what specifically anyone was praying for. But it did sound impressive.
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Old 01-10-2018, 08:04 PM   #22
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Yes, great verse. I don't get how that balances Heb 4 on the topic of discerning soul from spirit though.

I understood the antennae and ground wire thing though. Heard that quite a few times in TLR

I'm loving what the rest of you are saying on this topic
In the gospels Jesus said they searched the scriptures but didn't come to Him. The warning being that simply reading and studying the Bible might not lead you to a closer walk with the Lord.

Hebrews says that the word of God is a sharp two edged sword that is able to discern the thoughts and intents and separate the soul from the spirit.

Being able to do something doesn't presuppose that it will do it. A tuned piano is able to play very beautiful music, doesn't mean it will.

The word of God is the sharp two edged sword able to do this, but just because you are handling the Bible doesn't mean you will discern the spirit (just like those who didn't come to Jesus). We need to understand that this is a goal for us.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:03 AM   #23
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I remember attending prayer meetings, we would pray for an hour or more - God's economy this, Lord's move that. Most of the time I had no clue what specifically anyone was praying for. But it did sound impressive.
I think most of it is acculturation - "Blah blah blah BLAH!!" ("Ayyeeemeeen") blah blah blah blah BLAH!!" ("Ayyeeemeeen").

Acculturation is participation in, and assimilation of, group culture. The LC is subjective at its core, and this allows members to experience group dynamics via conscious participation. Just do the group prayer mode, with sing-song tonality and ministry verbiage. And then you are "in".

For example, if you use the word "economy" or "process" or "vital" in LC group prayer, you are not praying a tiny prayer but are being expansive. Nee and Lee were your portals into a supposedly larger realm.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:43 AM   #24
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In the gospels Jesus said they searched the scriptures but didn't come to Him. The warning being that simply reading and studying the Bible might not lead you to a closer walk with the Lord.

Hebrews says that the word of God is a sharp two edged sword that is able to discern the thoughts and intents and separate the soul from the spirit.

Being able to do something doesn't presuppose that it will do it. A tuned piano is able to play very beautiful music, doesn't mean it will.

The word of God is the sharp two edged sword able to do this, but just because you are handling the Bible doesn't mean you will discern the spirit (just like those who didn't come to Jesus). We need to understand that this is a goal for us.
OK. Thanks for helping me understand your point, which is well taken.

I reread Hebrews 4 http://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm, and note there is an exhortation to come forward with boldness to the throne of grace through Jesus immediately following the part I had quoted. That supports your point.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:47 AM   #25
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Today's quote by Hudson Taylor: "God's work done God's way will never lack God's supplies". I wonder why the LSM always has an "urgent need" somewhere? This seems to be a minstry of need.

Look at a HWMR some time, in the outline. "We need to do this" and "We must do that". Always the imposition of need.
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