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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 12-22-2017, 12:39 AM   #1
Evangelical
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Default How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

On another thread, it was stated and agreed upon by 2 or 3 witnesses that about 99% of a bunch of other believers have never heard of TLR or WL:

After getting out, I’ve met a bunch of other believers and about 99% of them have never heard of TLR or WL for that matter.

I agree that 99% of believers haven't heard of WL or his church.

Like you said, "99% of them have never heard of TLR or WL for that matter."


It was stated that this is not meant to be a literal number:

Many times people use "99%", not literally, but rather to indicate a small portion. I don't think anyone was attempting to provide statistically meaningful numbers. That was clearly not the intent.

That being the case, I decided to look into it and arrived at a number of 32 million people (10% of 320 million people) have heard about Lee, based on my own modelling to which I received this response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Evangelical, you are completely delusional if you think that 32 million people in the USA know who Witness Lee is.

I then explained further how I arrived at that number:


It seems like a lot but that's because you have not considered exponentiation every year for 10 years. I used a model based on the number of bibles distributed each year and a re-distribution factor to account for the bibles distributed in previous years. That's the power of exponentiation and many people underestimate it.

Here's the formula I used:

Np(t) = Np(t-1) + 2 x 140000 + 2 x 290000 + r x Np(t-1).

Np is number of people who know who Witness Lee is, t is time in years.

2 x 140,000 is the number of people reached by the distribution of bibles each year, assuming 140,000 bibles distributed each year (BFA figures) and each one being seen by two people (e.g. a husband and wife). 2x290000 is the number of books.

r is a re-distribution factor - I assumed 5% of all bibles distributed in previous years are re-circulated (e.g. through continued use every year, people leaving them on coffee tables or passing them onto other people). I assume the other 95% are thrown away.

There is no way to know this number but I think 5% is reasonable - the growth rate of Christianity worldwide is under 5% and it is difficult to be saved. It is easy to read the name "witness lee" on a book or a bible compared to adding a member to the church, so I think 5% is being conservative.

I repeat the calculation for proselytizing- assuming 10,000 local church people each tell 1 person every week about Christ, or 52 people per year, for 10 years, it all adds up. I assume that each person will encounter the ministry of Lee either through a gospel tract, new testament bible or book.

I do the math in Excel and over 10 years it comes to 10.8 million people who know about Lee from the bibles and books, and 13 million from evangelism. That's 23.8 million at least. Internet exposure is on top of that - it would have to be as much as the person to person evangelism, maybe more. Add another 8 or 9 million and that comes to 32 million.

If there's a problem with my figures feel free to point it out or propose another model.
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Old 12-22-2017, 02:09 AM   #2
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

You have way too much spare time dude
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Old 12-22-2017, 05:00 AM   #3
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

-2

Evangelical,

The Radio broadcast “Life study of the Bible with Witness Lee” was and is huge. Having been broadcast on Christian radio stations in multiple geos I’d expect the np(t) to be significantly higher than 32m. Through the radio broadcast I met many christians who came to know Witness Lee that way and some entire congregations would listen to those broadcasts. I fellowshipped with a few of those groups in their meetings. I am sure I only saw the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

That doesn’t include those who have heard of Witness Lee through others like The Bible Answer Man.

My take: Much bigger than 32.

Drake
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Old 12-22-2017, 05:17 AM   #4
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
That being the case, I decided to look into it and arrived at a number of 32 million people (10% of 320 million people) have heard about Lee, based on my own modelling to which I received this response:
So your hypothesis or theory is that a large number (maybe around 32 million) of people have heard of Witness Lee? Or, as Koin said, "know who Witness Lee is"? Or is it how many people have received Witness Lee literature? Maybe it is something else?
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Old 12-22-2017, 07:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

I think your estimation is far from being accurate.

(1) Your assume each book reaches a different person. In fact, most of the 290000 books (if the number is correct) published each year are circulated among the same group of people in the LC.

(2) You assume each RecV distributed reaches a person. In real life, probably some are gathering dust in book stores.

(3) You assume each person who received an RecV will know about WL. In real life, some people who received it never read it. Even they have read it, they might not have noticed WL's name.

(4) Do the LC people preach Christ or preach WL? If "10,000 local church people each tell 1 person every week about Christ", how would the person they talk to know about WL? Shouldn't they know about Christ instead?

(5) As Drake testified in another post, he had been meeting with LC for almost a year and never heard of WL. So even people gathering in LC may not have heard of WL.

If I were you, I would rather believe the estimation is inaccurate. If 32 million people have heard of WL and still the LC had such limited growth in the past decades, that means millions of people know but don't care about WL at all.

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Old 12-22-2017, 07:31 AM   #6
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

There are approximately 15,000-20,000 members of the LC in the United States. All of those people have an average of 5 relatives. That makes a core group of 120,000 people that know Witness Lee. If every year, each of those people have talked about Witness Lee to 1 other person, after only 12 years, nearly half a billion people knew Witness Lee--more than the entire US population.

This is realistic because of BfA, livingstream.com, and the Life-Study radio program broadcast in the US on 12 different stations.
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Old 12-22-2017, 11:34 AM   #7
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

I have been a Christian since 1964 and in the LC from 1970-1980. Since leaving the LC and rejoining other Christians, I have met one who knows about the LC, from doing street ministry in S. Cal. and that was about a year ago. His comments (my paraphrase from memory), they are rigid and exclusive.
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Old 12-22-2017, 04:12 PM   #8
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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(4) Do the LC people preach Christ or preach WL? If "10,000 local church people each tell 1 person every week about Christ", how would the person they talk to know about WL? Shouldn't they know about Christ instead?
Very astute observation. Wonder what Evangelical was thinking on that one....

Drake says he didnít hear of WL until almost a year. But he also said heís been with them for 4 decades. From my experience In todayís LC, that would be impossible (that is 0% from a statisticcally valid sample size )

It is the church of Witness Lee - Witness Lee will be preached.
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Old 12-22-2017, 06:14 PM   #9
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
As Drake testified in another post, he had been meeting with LC for almost a year and never heard of WL. So even people gathering in LC may not have heard of WL.
alb,

Yet, 4 decades ago there was no BFA, Radio Broadcast, etc.

Adding the believers in China for the better part of a century last century.....is another whopping category.. granted not in the USA if that is all that is at stake here.

And most importantly, Evangelical's model is based on the last 10 years...... not 4 decades..... I think he has underestimated the 32m in the USA alone.

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Old 12-22-2017, 06:45 PM   #10
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

Well we still don't know what we are actually counting - If we include those who have seen the words Witness and Lee together in the same sentence, then told no less than one friend or relative about the context of that writing, compound that over 40 years, we're talking big numbers, huge.

On a separate note:
Drake, do you believe the local church to have grown over the past 30 years?
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Old 12-22-2017, 07:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."Ē
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Old 12-23-2017, 02:15 AM   #12
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake View Post
Yet, 4 decades ago there was no BFA, Radio Broadcast, etc. Adding the believers in China for the better part of a century last century.....is another whopping category.. granted not in the USA if that is all that is at stake here. And most importantly, Evangelical's model is based on the last 10 years...... not 4 decades..... I think he has underestimated the 32m in the USA alone.
It is all just speculation. However I think everyone can agree that whatever the real number is more people have heard of Roy Moore than WL and that is just the last 4 months, not the last 4 decades.

We can also agree that "hearing of WL" is irrelevant to the gospel and the Lord's move. What is relevant is knowing and receiving Jesus Christ.
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Old 12-23-2017, 04:02 PM   #13
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

I looked thru my files but didn't find it. I must not have saved it, or it's in a book. But I remember Lee, I think in a talk in Taipei, where he projected calculations of how the local churches would take over the whole world in something like 10 years. (Prolly others out here can find it ... it's somewhere on LCD).

I'm with Watchman Nee. When much to Lee's surprise he told him, "Christians lie."

As I see it, it's likely that those in the LC are going to exaggerate the numbers up, while exLCers are going to be inclined to exaggerate the numbers down.

I don't see why it matters. If a lot of people know of Witness Lee does it mean God was working thru him? He's certainly not as popular as Billy Graham, Rick Warren, Pat Robertson, and a host of others. So I guess, if numbers matter, these ones were, or are, mighty messengers of God.
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Old 12-23-2017, 05:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
while exLCers are going to be inclined to exaggerate the numbers down.
As an exLCer are you inclined to negatively exaggerate Lee or his "LC"?

I know that I am not so inclined.

In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Just shine the light
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Old 12-24-2017, 12:53 PM   #15
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

ZNP>”...more people have heard of Roy Moore than WL and that is just the last 4 months, not the last 4 decades.”

I’ll have to concede that is true, ZNP.

In similar type comparison , more people have visited the grassy knoll than have visited this forum.

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Old 12-24-2017, 01:12 PM   #16
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

Awareness>ĒI don't see why it matters. If a lot of people know of Witness Lee does it mean God was working thru him?Ē

Awareness,

Hoping this holiday season brings you peace and joy.

I agree that there is little if any correlation between numbers and commission. The Little Flock, though little, was a move of God.

I do not have any expectation that the Lords Recovery will ever become really big in numbers. I believe God, for His move, more often uses a remnant.

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Old 12-24-2017, 02:37 PM   #17
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
ZNP>Ē...more people have heard of Roy Moore than WL and that is just the last 4 months, not the last 4 decades.Ē

Iíll have to concede that is true, ZNP.

In similar type comparison , more people have visited the grassy knoll than have visited this forum.

Good point, the assassination of JFK did affect more people than the crimes of WL and his family.
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Old 12-24-2017, 04:00 PM   #18
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Good point, the assassination of JFK did affect more people than the crimes of WL and his family.
Yes, but, they both involved equally great coverups of the crimes, and more people were hurt by those coverups than the original crimes.
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Old 12-25-2017, 11:56 PM   #19
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

I think the original formula overestimates two things.

1. The percentage of lcers that active in the ministry.

2. The stickiness of the Bibles and other materials. A good percentage I'm sure end in storage or the wastebin...and such folks won't recall the author.

I also am willing to bet knowledge of WL to be extremely patchy and centered around metro areas with strong lcs.

Compared to the infamy of scientology, Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses and the like the lc is nearly unknown
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:27 PM   #20
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Originally Posted by Drake View Post
-2

Evangelical,

The Radio broadcast “Life study of the Bible with Witness Lee” was and is huge. Having been broadcast on Christian radio stations in multiple geos I’d expect the np(t) to be significantly higher than 32m. Through the radio broadcast I met many christians who came to know Witness Lee that way and some entire congregations would listen to those broadcasts. I fellowshipped with a few of those groups in their meetings. I am sure I only saw the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

That doesn’t include those who have heard of Witness Lee through others like The Bible Answer Man.

My take: Much bigger than 32.

Drake
The model only accounts for published figures in the USA for book distribution. Consider the model to be an estimate of the least number of people who have heard of Lee. Many people on here seem astonished by a figure of 32 million.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:28 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
So your hypothesis or theory is that a large number (maybe around 32 million) of people have heard of Witness Lee? Or, as Koin said, "know who Witness Lee is"? Or is it how many people have received Witness Lee literature? Maybe it is something else?
People that have heard of Witness Lee, either by reading or hearing his name. Even people who have read the name once and forgotten it should be counted in the figure.
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Old 12-26-2017, 08:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
I think your estimation is far from being accurate.

(1) Your assume each book reaches a different person. In fact, most of the 290000 books (if the number is correct) published each year are circulated among the same group of people in the LC.
That's reasonable. If that is the case, I expect some of these people to share them with people they know who are not in the Recovery. When I first met with the LC we did a life study for a few weeks. I was given copies of the pages. This was before I ever knew there was a Recovery version.



Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
(2) You assume each RecV distributed reaches a person. In real life, probably some are gathering dust in book stores.
Are you saying the distribution was to book stores not people? I assumed distribution is to people, given directly or ordered online.


Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
(3) You assume each person who received an RecV will know about WL. In real life, some people who received it never read it. Even they have read it, they might not have noticed WL's name.
I expect this number to be small. Who receives a bible and doesn't check what version it is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
(4) Do the LC people preach Christ or preach WL? If "10,000 local church people each tell 1 person every week about Christ", how would the person they talk to know about WL? Shouldn't they know about Christ instead?
Preaching about Christ might normally be accompanied by a bible, tract, or book from which they will read the name Witness Lee. Also if the person asks "which church do you belong to" they might hear the name Witness Lee.


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Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
(5) As Drake testified in another post, he had been meeting with LC for almost a year and never heard of WL. So even people gathering in LC may not have heard of WL.
Not in my experience. First I was introduced to Watchman Nee, then Witness Lee later. The words were "have you heard of Watchman Nee" or something similar to that. In the Lord's Day meetings Brother Lee is referred to often especially during prophesy time, "brother Lee said...".

Quote:
Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
If I were you, I would rather believe the estimation is inaccurate. If 32 million people have heard of WL and still the LC had such limited growth in the past decades, that means millions of people know but don't care about WL at all.
Doesn't really matter if the growth does not match the number of people who have heard. I believe it would be proportional to the number of people who hear or know about Christ but don't care. The conversion rate to Christianity is fairly small.
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Old 12-26-2017, 09:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Very astute observation. Wonder what Evangelical was thinking on that one....

Drake says he didn’t hear of WL until almost a year. But he also said he’s been with them for 4 decades. From my experience In today’s LC, that would be impossible (that is 0% from a statisticcally valid sample size )

It is the church of Witness Lee - Witness Lee will be preached.
A person might hear about Lee through any accompanying books, tracts, invites to homes or the meetings. In response to any questions from the person about "which church are you from". Since evangelism is mostly to work colleagues, family and friends, I would expect continued discussions about the gospel, and the name Witness Lee might be heard at least once during that time.

I would not say Witness Lee is preached, only Christ is preached. I am sure the early church was mentioning the names of Peter, James, John and Paul frequently every Lord's Day as people were following their instructions, reading their writings (our scriptures today) etc. Reading the scripture written by Paul does not mean "preaching Paul".
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Old 12-26-2017, 10:03 PM   #24
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
As an exLCer are you inclined to negatively exaggerate Lee or his "LC"?
Maybe you haven't seen enough of my posts, but no I'm not disinclined to be negative about Witless Lee.
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Last edited by awareness; 12-27-2017 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:48 AM   #25
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People that have heard of Witness Lee, either by reading or hearing his name. Even people who have read the name once and forgotten it should be counted in the figure.
In your first post in this thread you made a special point to quote "Originally Posted by Koinonia Evangelical, you are completely delusional if you think that 32 million people in the USA know who Witness Lee is."

So according to your most recent thought, both you and Koinonia could be correct? And you're not counting someone that heard his name once and forgot it?

Long story short, your numbers are meaningless... you've wasted your time.
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:54 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
In your first post in this thread you made a special point to quote "Originally Posted by Koinonia Evangelical, you are completely delusional if you think that 32 million people in the USA know who Witness Lee is."

So according to your most recent thought, both you and Koinonia could be correct? And you're not counting someone that heard his name once and forgot it?

Long story short, your numbers are meaningless... you've wasted your time.
I think you know how it is in the LC leastofthese. When I was there, there's was this thing called The Vision. What the vision actually was was catching Witness Lee's megalomaniacal delusion about himself.

Witness Lee was so delusional that he thought his movement would take over the whole world in 10 years.

Obviously that didn't happen. It was a delusion. And unbeknownst to our dear brother Evangelical he's infected with it. So he can't help but inflate the numbers.

Let's pray for our dear brother. Only the Lord can reveal it to him.
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Old 12-27-2017, 10:56 AM   #27
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-1

Nay, nay awareness.

The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.

The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately. No, brother, the vision is not about a man, a fallible man, or even a servant to be commended though not a flawless one. It is a spiritual experience not unlike what you experienced in becoming regenerated. And yet, once it lays hold of you and you lay hold of it then it will govern you and it matters not what others say or do about this vision...... it cannot be denied.

I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves. I have said before that had I gone through the same experiences as some here that I do not know how I would have responded. Yet, in all the difficulties I have faced the Lord always supplied me with the grace to overcome and so I must believe in faith that He would have supplied me to meet those challenges too. And if faith waned, it was the heavenly vision that reinvigorated me, refreshed me, and kept me going for over 40 years. I petition the Lord that if He would impart this vision into the brothers and sisters in this forum that all would be well with them, but if not, then at least He would give them the grace and peace that passes understanding to move on with their lives. By that, I mean to move on emotionally, and mentally, as well as spiritually. I know, most of you will say you have moved on and I would hope it is so, but the content and tone of the many posts here speaks differently. Many here never made it out to another side, whatever that will be for them.

Grace to you,
Drake
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Old 12-27-2017, 12:30 PM   #28
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-1

Nay, nay awareness.

The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.
"The Vision" is the key criteria for determining who "The MOTA" is. That is why it is about WL and his megalomania.

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The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately. No, brother, the vision is not about a man, a fallible man, or even a servant to be commended though not a flawless one. It is a spiritual experience not unlike what you experienced in becoming regenerated. And yet, once it lays hold of you and you lay hold of it then it will govern you and it matters not what others say or do about this vision...... it cannot be denied.
If this were true then you would admit that millions have "seen the vision", not merely the few members of this one particular group.

Except the "ground of the church" is a crucial part of this vision, the one part that all of these others have not seen. For the vast majority of Christians that have seen this vision the ground we stand on is Christ's blood and His redemptive work on the cross. However, for those caught up in WL's twisted megalomania vision that is not sufficient, they must also see the "significance of the boundary of the city". Nothing "eternal" about that vision. The boundary of NYC has changed many, many times. But no matter, it is still a crucial part of the "eternal vision" seen by WL and his cohort.

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I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves. I have said before that had I gone through the same experiences as some here that I do not know how I would have responded. Yet, in all the difficulties I have faced the Lord always supplied me with the grace to overcome and so I must believe in faith that He would have supplied me to meet those challenges too. And if faith waned, it was the heavenly vision that reinvigorated me, refreshed me, and kept me going for over 40 years. I petition the Lord that if He would impart this vision into the brothers and sisters in this forum that all would be well with them, but if not, then at least He would give them the grace and peace that passes understanding to move on with their lives. By that, I mean to move on emotionally, and mentally, as well as spiritually. I know, most of you will say you have moved on and I would hope it is so, but the content and tone of the many posts here speaks differently. Many here never made it out to another side, whatever that will be for them.

Grace to you,
Drake
And I am always amazed at the arrogance of these few followers of WL to insult all Christians, claiming we disparage the NT vision.

Is the "ground of the church" truly a NT vision? Can you actually teach this "vision" based solely on the NT? No doubt you can teach the importance of oneness, we all agree that oneness is important. But without inference, inuendo, shadow and mirrors how is it that you teach this "NT Vision" that you live by? Have at it, show us from the NT this doctrine of "the Ground of the Church".

Yes, we all know that Paul addressed his letters to "the church in _____". We all recognize the importance of being one and Paul's standing against any division. But where in the NT does it teach the importance of city boundaries at keeping that oneness? Where in the NT is the basis to disparage all other tables in a city except the one that a few hundred saints keep?
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Old 12-27-2017, 01:00 PM   #29
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ZNP> “For the vast majority of Christians that have seen this vision the ground we stand on is Christ's blood and His redemptive work on the cross.”

ZNP,

That wonderful truth is the portion of every born again believer as a child of God. If that is the vision of the ground you stand on, and it is what the Lord has shown you, then be faithful to it.

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Old 12-27-2017, 03:43 PM   #30
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In your first post in this thread you made a special point to quote "Originally Posted by Koinonia Evangelical, you are completely delusional if you think that 32 million people in the USA know who Witness Lee is."

So according to your most recent thought, both you and Koinonia could be correct? And you're not counting someone that heard his name once and forgot it?

Long story short, your numbers are meaningless... you've wasted your time.
I would say the same about the 99 percent figure that 3 or 4 people agreed upon without any meaningful facts or figures to back it up. Meaningless numbers and a waste of time because its just speculation and opinions.

So if one person invents a number and others agree then it must be true.
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:07 PM   #31
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I think you know how it is in the LC leastofthese. When I was there, there's was this thing called The Vision. What the vision actually was was catching Witness Lee's megalomaniacal delusion about himself.

Witness Lee was so delusional that he thought his movement would take over the whole world in 10 years.

Obviously that didn't happen. It was a delusion. And unbeknownst to our dear brother Evangelical he's infected with it. So he can't help but inflate the numbers.

Let's pray for our dear brother. Only the Lord can reveal it to him.
I pray for Drake regularly. I need to include Evangelical too.

The delusions are quite appearant, Iíll give them the benefit of the doubt that they believe what theyíre writing, but sometimes... I just donít know. They try to spin stories like we havenít been a part of the LSM wackiness. Like youíve said, to paraphrase, I canít unsee what I saw. I know the dealio. Itís all a farce. The only question is how far from the mark does their arrow hit? Not for me to judge.
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Old 12-27-2017, 07:10 PM   #32
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LofT>ĒNot for me to judgeĒ

And yet, you do, continuously in the court of public opinion.

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Old 12-27-2017, 11:16 PM   #33
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The issue is not how many people have heard of WL/ LSM, but how many take him serious. If in the city of San Diego, with a population of over 1.4 million, if one wants to say that 10% have had some contact with the LSM, but only 275 meet and follow the LSM, seems that the LC has a PR problem.
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:41 AM   #34
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I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves.
I too am amazed why two groups of people who claim they love God can see things so differently.

I believe one temptation reading the Bible is that people start to think they are like Paul, John or other prophets and dream for their own unique vision from God.

I don't know you brother, but what happened to WL was obvious.

He so enjoyed his own spiritual "high" and moved on to create one of the most arrogant ministries, a ministry that could not stop disparaging other members of the body of Christ.

He was so blinded by his own "vision" that he missed even the most obvious things when interpreting the Bible. The Bible became just a tool to prove he was right. A couple of examples I recently noticed...

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?

RecV footnote: (But) The prophets are great in their speaking concerning Christ but not in their speaking concerning other things. Micah's word here concerning what Jehovah requires of His people is not a matter of God's revelation but a matter of the prophet's concept...


Micah clearly stated "He has declared to you". Unless Micah was a liar, that message was from God.

Romans 9:3 For I could wish that I myself were a curse, separated from Christ for my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

RecV footnote: (curse) For Paul to wish that Israel would be saved was necessary, but to wish that he himself would be a curse and would be separated from Christ would have been extreme...


What Paul wrote certainly looks extreme in the eyes of someone who wouldn't hesitate to cut off other members of the body for the "oneness" of his own ministry. Lee has forgotten the most obvious example - Jesus Christ loves us so much that He became curse for us and forsaken by God on the cross. Paul had the heart of Christ. Did WL? I don't think so.

Yeh, I am one of the "32m" people who have heard of WL. I heard of and also see what he is and what he isn't.

To me, PRIDE explains why people can see things so differently.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:36 AM   #35
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LofT>ĒNot for me to judgeĒ

And yet, you do, continuously in the court of public opinion.

Drake
That is a hoot coming from you Drake. But... maybe some of Witness Lee did rub off on me.

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.
And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:51 AM   #36
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Real time example provided.

Drake
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Old 12-28-2017, 06:57 AM   #37
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Alb,

You are proposing that EVERY word spoken by the major and minor prophets and psalmists was a message from God that reflected His exact thought and attitude.

Is that what you believe?

Drake
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Old 12-28-2017, 07:23 AM   #38
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The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.

I have said before that had I gone through the same experiences as some here that I do not know how I would have responded. Yet, in all the difficulties I have faced the Lord always supplied me with the grace to overcome and so I must believe in faith that He would have supplied me to meet those challenges too. And if faith waned, it was the heavenly vision that reinvigorated me, refreshed me, and kept me going for over 40 years.
When your Blended leadership at LSM decided to quarantine GLA LC's for printing books instead of buying theirs, and having contemporary Christian Christian music instead of singing Lee's hymns with a piano, then I knew for sure that Lee's so-called "vision" was a farce. When I read about past storms / quarantines and watched operatives from LSM/DCP divide GLA LC's and file lawsuits over meeting halls then I knew for sure that LSM was corrupt.

Dear Drake, God is faithful to all His children. He will always supply you with His grace to overcome, not because of Lee's pseudo-vision, but because of His many promises to us.
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Old 12-28-2017, 07:33 AM   #39
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Brother Ohio,

I am not following a manís vision.

What about the vision I described do you disagree with?

Drake
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Old 12-28-2017, 07:34 AM   #40
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A couple of examples I recently noticed...

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?

RecV footnote: (But) The prophets are great in their speaking concerning Christ but not in their speaking concerning other things. Micah's word here concerning what Jehovah requires of His people is not a matter of God's revelation but a matter of the prophet's concept...


Micah clearly stated "He has declared to you". Unless Micah was a liar, that message was from God.
Thanks alb. Quite telling.

Yesterday I was reading about when the Lord rebuked the Jews for making void the word of God for their traditions. (Matt. 15.3)
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Old 12-28-2017, 07:41 AM   #41
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Brother Ohio,

I am not following a man’s vision.

What about the vision I described do you disagree with?

Drake
For starters, just from this thread,
  • That Lee was a unique MOTA
  • That Lee's vision was the N.T. vision
  • That the MOTA was above the law
  • That his teachings could "correct" the scripture
  • That only LSM approved churches are legit
  • That city lines are the ground of the church
  • That only LSM books are approved in the LC's
  • That all other churches are worthy of condemnation
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Old 12-28-2017, 07:44 AM   #42
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So you donít disagree with the vision I described.

Drake
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Old 12-28-2017, 08:12 AM   #43
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So you donít disagree with the vision I described.

Drake
Visions are like the Creeds. They have some good points and numerous shortcomings. Paul's heavenly vision was primarily that he would bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. He repeatedly told us that. That was his life mission. Read the book of Acts.

W. Lee transferred and distorted Paul's "heavenly vision" to himself and his ministry. I believed it for 30 years until I finally learned how much Lee twisted his "vision" for personal gain. I no longer agree with anything that is exclusive to LSM. Now I only espouse the common faith unique to the scriptures.
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Old 12-28-2017, 04:22 PM   #44
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Alb,

You are proposing that EVERY word spoken by the major and minor prophets and psalmists was a message from God that reflected His exact thought and attitude.

Is that what you believe?

Drake
No, I am not proposing what you said.

My point was WL blinded by his own "vision".
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Old 12-28-2017, 04:33 PM   #45
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Visions are like the Creeds. They have some good points and numerous shortcomings. Paul's heavenly vision was primarily that he would bring the Gospel to the Gentiles. He repeatedly told us that. That was his life mission. Read the book of Acts.

W. Lee transferred and distorted Paul's "heavenly vision" to himself and his ministry. I believed it for 30 years until I finally learned how much Lee twisted his "vision" for personal gain. I no longer agree with anything that is exclusive to LSM. Now I only espouse the common faith unique to the scriptures.
Ohio, well-said. In the past two years, I began to revisit my understanding on Paul's mission. What you said about Paul's vision is exactly how I understand it now, including how the vision was distorted by Lee.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:25 PM   #46
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The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately.
Thank you for sharing on "the vision we speak of". Like Ohio, I also dislike this kind of approach as it is always lacking and deficient. It is impossible, short of quoting the entire NT, to be comprehensive.

For example you refer to the Body of Christ and a warrior Bride that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil.

Yet there is no mention of those that "would stumble the believers" which Jesus refers to in Matt 18 and which the apostles refer to frequently in many epistles. These forces of evil play heavily in the "building of the Body" which you refer to in the most general way. For example, Paul, when he was Saul, was involved in the persecution of the saints. He did not see the Body of Christ, that was his big failure, the thing that made him "less than the least of all saints". This may explain his focus on presenting this vision in his epistles. Peter's big failing was at the Lord's crucifixion and in his letter he makes it very clear that he is focused on his second chance. He has many insights on suffering in his epistle, perhaps the reason he can present such a clear vision is because of the hours he has spent in prayer and meditation so that he doesn't make the same mistake again. James big failure was in becoming the head of a cult (though perhaps unwittingly). In his letter he provides the only clear definition of what a pure religion is and the wisdom to identify the false prophets.

What is clear to me is that the vision each of the apostles shares in their epistles, each of which is part of the NT vision, is the product of their profound failure. As a result these failures are also part of the NT vision. These are the temptations common to man that we must overcome in order to be "built up". You give the simplest overview -- cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis. Yes, in each case the apostle's vision gave the Lord a ruling position in their lives. But to give the vision in such a generic and vague way to me is meaningless.
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:37 PM   #47
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Nay, nay awareness.

The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.

The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately. No, brother, the vision is not about a man, a fallible man, or even a servant to be commended though not a flawless one. It is a spiritual experience not unlike what you experienced in becoming regenerated. And yet, once it lays hold of you and you lay hold of it then it will govern you and it matters not what others say or do about this vision...... it cannot be denied.

I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves. I have said before that had I gone through the same experiences as some here that I do not know how I would have responded. Yet, in all the difficulties I have faced the Lord always supplied me with the grace to overcome and so I must believe in faith that He would have supplied me to meet those challenges too. And if faith waned, it was the heavenly vision that reinvigorated me, refreshed me, and kept me going for over 40 years. I petition the Lord that if He would impart this vision into the brothers and sisters in this forum that all would be well with them, but if not, then at least He would give them the grace and peace that passes understanding to move on with their lives. By that, I mean to move on emotionally, and mentally, as well as spiritually. I know, most of you will say you have moved on and I would hope it is so, but the content and tone of the many posts here speaks differently. Many here never made it out to another side, whatever that will be for them.

Grace to you,
Drake
Back in the late 70's, I thought WL had such a vision, I thought the elders in the church in my city had such a vision, then slowly at first, then quite rapidly during the early to mid 80's a shift in vision came through. It was no longer the building up of the assembly it was all about LSM. At first it was a clearing of the book room of non-LSM material, it was LSM material in every meeting. It was talk of oneness with " the ministry", only "the ministery" and get on the train so your not left behind at the station. The local needs of the saints, the local ministry, and really, the love of the saints was gone- sold out for LSM. Then it was a form letter in the mail that basically said we are 100% for WL/LSM. The meeting hall, the labor, time and money put into having a place to meet was turned over to LSM: the practical local church meeting in the Lord's name was gone. Some of the elders who could not accept it were gone, many saints including myself left- but really, it was not us leaving it was the " LC" leaving us. I knew I did not want to raise my kids in such a place.

Drake, I suspect many of us have a vision of the church- it would be really good if those who claim to meet as the "LC" would repent, drop LSM and start meeting in that vision again. They stole the meeting hall from the church, they stole the simplicity of meeting as the church, and turned it over to LSM. I don't want to meet with delusional thiefs. If repentance ever comes, I would be one of the first to return to breaking bread, fellowship, preaching the gospel, love feasts, meeting in the home, and enjoying the saints as the simple church in the city.
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:12 AM   #48
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No, I am not proposing what you said.

My point was WL blinded by his own "vision".
Alb,

Okay. Therefore, if you also recognize that not everything stated by the prophets reflected Gods thought and attitude then the basis of your argument is contradicted by the example you used.

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Old 12-31-2017, 05:29 AM   #49
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Alb,

Okay. Therefore, if you also recognize that not everything stated by the prophets reflected Gods thought and attitude then the basis of your argument is contradictory by the example you used.

Drake
So Paul was also delusional when he said, "all scripture is God-breathed"?

I never saw a group of Christians so obsessed with discovering "human sentiments" in the Bible. Why don't you spend your time wisely and identify all of Lee's own "human sentiments," a.k.a. "leaven."
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:52 AM   #50
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Ohio>ĒSo Paul was also delusional when he said, "all scripture is God-breathed"?

No.

All scripture is a God breathed and profitable for correction, rebuking, teaching, and training in righteousness.

That does not mean that every word in scripture is Godís thought and attitude!

The devils words are not Godís thought and attitude. They are there. Fallen human thought is there. Those are not Godís thought and attitude. Religious thought is there but that too is not Godís thought or attitude. Mistakes are recorded, sin is recorded, erroneous doctrine is recorded, philosophy, culture, ... they are not Godís thought or attitude.

You are mistaken to equate Godís breathing with Godís thought and attitude. Yet, all is there, Godís thought and attitude and all the rest. All is profitable for correction, teaching, instruction, and reproof.

Drake
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
Back in the late 70's, I thought WL had such a vision, I thought the elders in the church in my city had such a vision, then slowly at first, then quite rapidly during the early to mid 80's a shift in vision came through. It was no longer the building up of the assembly it was all about LSM. At first it was a clearing of the book room of non-LSM material, it was LSM material in every meeting. It was talk of oneness with " the ministry", only "the ministery" and get on the train so your not left behind at the station. The local needs of the saints, the local ministry, and really, the love of the saints was gone- sold out for LSM. Then it was a form letter in the mail that basically said we are 100% for WL/LSM. The meeting hall, the labor, time and money put into having a place to meet was turned over to LSM: the practical local church meeting in the Lord's name was gone. Some of the elders who could not accept it were gone, many saints including myself left- but really, it was not us leaving it was the " LC" leaving us. I knew I did not want to raise my kids in such a place.

Drake, I suspect many of us have a vision of the church- it would be really good if those who claim to meet as the "LC" would repent, drop LSM and start meeting in that vision again. They stole the meeting hall from the church, they stole the simplicity of meeting as the church, and turned it over to LSM. I don't want to meet with delusional thiefs. If repentance ever comes, I would be one of the first to return to breaking bread, fellowship, preaching the gospel, love feasts, meeting in the home, and enjoying the saints as the simple church in the city.
Boxjobox,

First, I want to thank you for this post. It touched me. I read it several times to put myself in your shoes and try to understand if my experience was materially different from yours and why we hold different points of view.

So, here are my thoughts based on what you stated. Do not take anything I say personally for I do not judge you or your situation for I know neither other than what you have stated above. I don’t need to know any details for what I say applies to my every situation.

The vision that governs me is not Brother Lee’s vision or any elder’s vision. It is the vision imparted to me by the Holy Spirit. By that, I do not mean it is not the same vision for the most part. I mean that though I heard about the vision from ministers like Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, various elders, many gifts to the Body, and functioning members in the Body, at some definite point in time I received a direct visitation from the Holy Spirit imparting a vision into me. At that definite point in time that revelation of the vision, that experience of the vision, became mine and should those through whom I heard about this vision change their view, mine would not for I cannot deny what I have received directly from God. This vision carried me through turbulence in the church life not unlike that found in the Corinthian church. Outwardly, it a mess, nevertheless, the vision speaks it is still the church of God in Corinth. All in Asia forsook Paul yet Paul was faithful to the heavenly vision. That is the quality of a vision imparted by God. It endures, it guides, it keeps. Offending brothers may never repent but the vision is still the vision. Once you possess it, or rather it captures you, you have a treasure that is worthy above everything and everyone else for the vision is God Himself. The vision enables me to forgive 70x7. Without it I would hold an offense forever, or at least till the Bema of Christ. So, whether those who offended me repent or never repent I am not guided by their repentance but rather by the vision I have received. Man’s failures, sinful actions, or shortcomings do not dictate the path I chose and choose.

As to LSM specifically, in my view is it has always been an extension to the work of ministry. It is a reasonable expectation that the role of LSM be defined, yet it will not surprise you that I view their contribution as beneficial to the local churches and not the heavy handed control organization of the local churches you described. And just to calm any angst about what I mean, I condemn and have condemned the actions of Philip Lee and have stated that someone should have called the cops but he does not define what LSM is or their total contribution to the work of ministry. Still, even if a LSM were to publish Harry Potter books it does not affect the vision that guides me because I did not receive it from LSM.

Thanks again for your post. It’s sincerity and lack of malice allowed me to give thoughtful consideration before the Lord. Please accept my response in the considerate spirit in which it is intended.

Drake
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:23 AM   #52
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Alb,

Okay. Therefore, if you also recognize that not everything stated by the prophets reflected Gods thought and attitude then the basis of your argument is contradicted by the example you used.

Drake
I am afraid your vision or desire to win an agrument has degraded your logical mind.

"Not everything stated by the prophets reflect Gods thought and attitude" does not imply the example I stated does not reflect Gods thought.

If you read that verse again, you will find that Micah stated clearly the message was declared by God. But WL said it is the prophet's own thought. Who do you think is more trustworthy, Micah or WL?
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:21 AM   #53
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-1

Ohio>ĒSo Paul was also delusional when he said, "all scripture is God-breathed"?

No.

All scripture is a God breathed and profitable for correction, rebuking, teaching, and training in righteousness.

That does not mean that every word in scripture is Godís thought and attitude!

The devils words are not Godís thought and attitude. They are there. Fallen human thought is there. Those are not Godís thought and attitude. Religious thought is there but that too is not Godís thought or attitude. Mistakes are recorded, sin is recorded, erroneous doctrine is recorded, philosophy, culture, ... they are not Godís thought or attitude.

You are mistaken to equate Godís breathing with Godís thought and attitude. Yet, all is there, Godís thought and attitude and all the rest. All is profitable for correction, teaching, instruction, and reproof.

Drake
Brother Drake,

And where's that verse that says, "not all scripture is God's thought"?

Actually you are mistaken here, because even the devil's own words, recorded in the scripture, are inspired by God for our instruction, teaching, admonition.

Amen?

And happy new year!
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:24 AM   #54
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I am afraid your vision or desire to win an agrument has degraded your logical mind.
Yes!

And couple that with his obsession to defend the indefensible, Witness Lee and Sons.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:28 AM   #55
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Alb>”If you read that verse again, you will find that Micah stated clearly the message was declared by God. But WL said it is the prophet's own thought. Who do you think is more trustworthy, Micah or WL?”

Alb,

Your argument is based on presenting half a footnote so for that reason either of their thoughts are more trustworthy than yours.

The point of the footnote which you neglected to show is that the divine concept is that Christ has replaced the law and God’s people should live Christ rather than keep the law.

Do you agree with that?

Drake
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Old 12-31-2017, 04:27 PM   #56
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Alb>”If you read that verse again, you will find that Micah stated clearly the message was declared by God. But WL said it is the prophet's own thought. Who do you think is more trustworthy, Micah or WL?”

Alb,

Your argument is based on presenting half a footnote so for that reason either of their thoughts are more trustworthy than yours.

The point of the footnote which you neglected to show is that the divine concept is that Christ has replaced the law and God’s people should live Christ rather than keep the law.

Do you agree with that?

Drake
This is an irrelevant question. The answer would be more than a simple yes or no and needs much more lengtly discussion. Let's not divert from the current focus.

You are correct, I did not quote the entire footnote. That's why I put the "..." in my quote to indicate I was extracting part of the footnote relevant to my point.

Whether the remaining part of the footnote is valid or not does not change the fact that Lee misinterpreted Micah. And I believe the reason is because Lee was so sure about his vision on God's economy that it became the veil between him and God's word.
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:27 PM   #57
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This is an irrelevant question. The answer would be more than a simple yes or no and needs much more lengtly discussion. Let's not divert from the current focus.

You are correct, I did not quote the entire footnote. That's why I put the "..." in my quote to indicate I was extracting part of the footnote relevant to my point.

Whether the remaining part of the footnote is valid or not does not change the fact that Lee misinterpreted Micah. And I believe the reason is because Lee was so sure about his vision on God's economy that it became the veil between him and God's word.
There are many examples of Witness Lee presuming to have a higher vision or revelation than the Bible.

There are threads that have gone into this extensively concerning his writings on Psalms, Proverbs, Job, and the book of James.

So on the one hand Witness Lee teaches that a prophet is a spokesman, someone speaking on behalf of God. The word can be interpreted as to speak for God, or to speak beforehand. Either way, as a spokesman a prophet is similar to the press secretary job at the Whitehouse. Just as a press secretary would be fired immediately if anything they stated officially did not reflect the thought of the President and Whitehouse. Yet WL can claim that this is what the Prophets of God did, mixed their own opinions and ideas in with the words given them from God.

As a result LSM apologists have to twist and squirm to fit WL's teachings in with the fundamental view that all scripture is God breathed.

Bible teachers are a dime a dozen, you can get numerous studies, and Bible's with footnotes. Why someone would continue to look to WL's ministry for Bible study is beyond me. His arrogant attitude towards a number of books and authors was the point at which I stopped attending the Trainings and stopped buying into this ministry. I guess the training that included the book of James was the beginning of the end for me.
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Old 12-31-2017, 05:45 PM   #58
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Boxjobox,

First, I want to thank you for this post. It touched me. I read it several times to put myself in your shoes and try to understand if my experience was materially different from yours and why we hold different points of view.

So, here are my thoughts based on what you stated. Do not take anything I say personally for I do not judge you or your situation for I know neither other than what you have stated above. I donít need to know any details for what I say applies to my every situation.

The vision that governs me is not Brother Leeís vision or any elderís vision. It is the vision imparted to me by the Holy Spirit. By that, I do not mean it is not the same vision for the most part. I mean that though I heard about the vision from ministers like Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, various elders, many gifts to the Body, and functioning members in the Body, at some definite point in time I received a direct visitation from the Holy Spirit imparting a vision into me. At that definite point in time that revelation of the vision, that experience of the vision, became mine and should those through whom I heard about this vision change their view, mine would not for I cannot deny what I have received directly from God. This vision carried me through turbulence in the church life not unlike that found in the Corinthian church. Outwardly, it a mess, nevertheless, the vision speaks it is still the church of God in Corinth. All in Asia forsook Paul yet Paul was faithful to the heavenly vision. That is the quality of a vision imparted by God. It endures, it guides, it keeps. Offending brothers may never repent but the vision is still the vision. Once you possess it, or rather it captures you, you have a treasure that is worthy above everything and everyone else for the vision is God Himself. The vision enables me to forgive 70x7. Without it I would hold an offense forever, or at least till the Bema of Christ. So, whether those who offended me repent or never repent I am not guided by their repentance but rather by the vision I have received. Manís failures, sinful actions, or shortcomings do not dictate the path I chose and choose.

As to LSM specifically, in my view is it has always been an extension to the work of ministry. It is a reasonable expectation that the role of LSM be defined, yet it will not surprise you that I view their contribution as beneficial to the local churches and not the heavy handed control organization of the local churches you described. And just to calm any angst about what I mean, I condemn and have condemned the actions of Philip Lee and have stated that someone should have called the cops but he does not define what LSM is or their total contribution to the work of ministry. Still, even if a LSM were to publish Harry Potter books it does not affect the vision that guides me because I did not receive it from LSM.

Thanks again for your post. Itís sincerity and lack of malice allowed me to give thoughtful consideration before the Lord. Please accept my response in the considerate spirit in which it is intended.

Drake
Sounds very familiar to Mormon experiences Iíve heard about...
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:14 PM   #59
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This is an irrelevant question. The answer would be more than a simple yes or no and needs much more lengtly discussion. Let's not divert from the current focus.

You are correct, I did not quote the entire footnote. That's why I put the "..." in my quote to indicate I was extracting part of the footnote relevant to my point.

Whether the remaining part of the footnote is valid or not does not change the fact that Lee misinterpreted Micah. And I believe the reason is because Lee was so sure about his vision on God's economy that it became the veil between him and God's word.
Alb,

The point of the footnote is clear and your parsing it misrepresents it.

Christ replaced the law and Godís people should live Christ rather than keep the law. That is the point. What is Micah 6:8 referring to? Keeping the law.

Drake
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:21 PM   #60
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Alb,

The point of the footnote is clear and your parsing it misrepresents it.

Christ replaced the law and God’s people should live Christ rather than keep the law. That is the point. What is Micah 6:8 referring to? Keeping the law.

Drake
Where do you see the words "keep the law" in Micah 6:8? Because the footnote said so?
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:26 PM   #61
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ZNP>Ē...presuming to have a higher vision or revelation than the Bible.Ē

There is no revelation or vision higher than that we find in the Bible.

Drake
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:46 PM   #62
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Where do you see the words "keeping the law" in Micah 6:8?
Micah 6:8 describes weightier matters of the law. Nevertheless, Christ replaced the law and Godís people should live Christ, not keep the law.

The whole footnote makes it clear.

Drake
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:51 PM   #63
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Micah 6:8 describes weightier matters of the law. Nevertheless, Christ replaced the law and God’s people should live Christ, not keep the law.

The whole footnote makes it clear.

Drake
I was updating my post and then found you had already replied. So my guess was right - because the footnote said so.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:07 PM   #64
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I was updating my post and then found you have already replied. So my guess was right - because the footnote said so.
Alb,

You introduced the footnote, not me. You chopped it up and are misrepresenting it, not me. I’m simply accommodating your preference to focus on the footnote. This footnote was chosen by you as the centerpiece of your argument. Now you want to run from it?

Since you wanted to focus on this footnote I now agree to engage you on it. We have plenty to discuss about this footnote.. in many ways. For instance, it seems as if you do not agree with its main point.... that Christ replaced the law and that God’s people should live Christ and not keep the law.

Drake
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:19 PM   #65
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Alb,

You introduced the footnote, not me. You chopped it up and are misrepresenting it, not me. Iím simply accommodating your preference to focus on the footnote. This footnote was chosen by you as the centerpiece of your argument. Now you want to run from it?

Since you wanted to focus on this footnote I now agree to engage you on it. We have plenty to discuss about this footnote.. in many ways. For instance, it seems as if you do not agree with its main point.... that Christ replaced the law and that Godís people should live Christ and not keep the law.

Drake
Was my point really so difficult to understand? Micah 6:8 said God declared something but Lee said it was Micah's own concept. There was not a single word mentioning Law in the verse (even the whole chapter) and Lee said it was about keeping the law.

Who was more trustworthy? Simple as that.

I repeat, it has nothing to do with the rest of the footnote.
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Old 01-01-2018, 03:43 AM   #66
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Was my point really so difficult to understand? Micah 6:8 said God declared something but Lee said it was Micah's own concept. There was not a single word mentioning Law in the verse (even the whole chapter) and Lee said it was about keeping the law.

Who was more trustworthy? Simple as that.

I repeat, it has nothing to do with the rest of the footnote.
Verse 8 is about keeping the moral law for moral righteousness (the right-standing with God which comes by morality, the apostle Paul even suggests that people who have not heard of Christ may be saved by this if they follow their good conscience). Verse 7 refers to the written law (sacrifices etc) which the Jews were in the habit of putting more importance on written law than morals. Jesus sought to correct their thinking about this as stated in the 4 gospels. Based upon Hosea 6:6 and Matt 9:13, moral law is more important than written law - mercy is better than sacrifice.

But it doesn't stop there. Any born again Christian knows that keeping the moral law as specified in verse 8 is not enough to be saved - one must accept Christ. Moral righteousness is not enough to be saved, one must receive (imparted, imputed, infused, let's not debate that here) the righteousness of Christ, and this righteousness ends the moral and written law for righteousness:

Romans 10:4 - Christ is the end of the Law, in order to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.


Both moral and written law depends on ourselves. It is our righteousness.

But the righteousness from God, is God's righteousness (or Christ's, to be more specific):

Phil 3:9:
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

Therein lies the difference. Micah only mentions the moral and written law which is "our righteousness" and does not say anything about the righteousness from God and God's plan to save mankind by the righteousness of Christ.

To show you the difference I have found examples of old testament passages which DO contain divine revelation (about the future righteousness of God):

Isaiah 54:17, Isaiah 46:13, Isaiah 51:5, Isaiah 56:1, Isaiah 45:24-25, Isaiah 61:10, Isaiah 51:6, Psalm 89:16, , Daniel 9:24, Jeremiah 23:6.

Isaiah, Daniel and Jeremiah contains divine revelation about God's future righteousness whereas Micah does not. Contrast these verses with Micah 6:8 and you will find that 6:8 is void of any such language about God's future righteousness. It is possible to relate any of the previous verses directly to the epistles of Paul, the book of Acts etc. However Micah 6:8 takes us only as far as the gospels (e.g. Matt 9:13).

For example, these two verses are not a good match, since 6:8 is about being a good boy by our righteousness to please God, and Eph 2:8 is about pleasing God by accepting His righteousness, despite being a naughty boy.

Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves


In contrast, these two are a good match, because one says righteousness is only in the Lord, and the other says righteousness is not of ourselves (implying righteousness is only in the Lord).

Isaiah 45:24-25
They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves

The divine revelation about Christ will relate to the epistles of Paul, as I have shown.
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:06 AM   #67
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.
.
The divine revelation about Christ will relate to the epistles of Paul, as I have shown.
Your effort trying to refer to the bible to find the truth is appreciated. But I am afraid until the present day the same veil remains at your reading of the old covenant.

Please answer one simple question first:

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?

From the plain text, who declared this message?
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:12 AM   #68
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Your effort trying to refer to the bible to find the truth is appreciated. But I am afraid until the present day the same veil remains at your reading of the old covenant.

Please answer one simple question first:

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?

From the plain text, who declared this message?
Well I hope you can appreciate now the verse's relevance to the law and its insufficiency in relation to the gospel which Paul preached about GOD's righteousness.

Let's go back to your earlier interpretation of "He has declared to you":

Micah clearly stated "He has declared to you". Unless Micah was a liar, that message was from God.

The meaning of "He has declared to you" is "God has told you enough already, in the Law of Moses ". It is not a direct word from God, but the prophet pointing them to the Law. Just as Jesus pointed the Pharisees to the law. God did not give him revelation at this point about the coming Messiah and the future righteousness in Christ. He was pointing them to what he already knew - the law of Moses, no new revelation required really.

Alternatively at this point he might have communicated God's revelation about the future Messiah and coming righteousness from God (as the verses I gave previously state). But it seems that God did not give him this revelation for this part.

We can see that Micah does not use the words "The Lord saith" or "thus saith the Lord" which Prophets normally do if they are prophesying God's direct speaking. See how Jeremiah does it:

Jer 9:13 "And the LORD saith, Because they have forsaken my law which I set before them, and have not obeyed my voice, neither walked therein;"

Clearly vs 13 is God speaking directly through the prophet.

Jeremiah 9:12 on the other hand is not in quotation marks, indicating it is the prophets own narrative:

Who is wise enough to understand this? Who has been instructed by the LORD and can explain it? Why has the land been ruined and laid waste like a desert that no one can cross?

Prophecies are typically a combination of the prophet's own narrative (inspired as they are, but possibly containing human concepts - prophets are fallible humans too) and God's direct speaking.

So I take your possible misinterpretation of Micah 6:8 as a possible failure to rightly divide the Word and discern the difference between the prophet's own words and God's direct speaking in the prophecy. Perhaps even a failure to recognize that there is a difference? You suggested that the footnote makes Micah a liar. But if God was communicating divine revelation in this verse does that not make "God a liar"(it would contradict all the other verses I quoted previously) ?

PS. A clearer example of the difference between a prophet's human speaking and God's speaking is in the scientific matters. Take this verse for example:

Isaiah 40:22 It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in

Isaiah's cosmology matches that of a semi-spherical dome (the words circle and tent in Hebrew describe as such). This matches the cosmology of the Egyptians which they would known at the time. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_cosmology
for biblical cosmology, it explains it all). Moses was educated by the Egyptians, the most advanced civilization at the time, so he had an ancient Egyptian scientific worldview, the best he could get. Isaiah was probably schooled in the Egyptian sciences as well, I assume. Given that the verse does not say "thus saith the Lord", I can tell that this is Isaiah explaining God in terms of his ancient scientific worldview. The spiritual truth he is conveying is divinely inspired and true but his human view about what the earth looks like is incorrect.

The book of Job is more of a puzzle given that it contains God speaking to Job using ancient cosmology terms (e.g. that snow or hail comes from vaults above a hard sky-dome firmament - Job 38:22 (God said) - "Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the storehouses of the hail,"). This could be because God is explaining things in a way that Job and friends can understand (to explain where snow comes from would be too hard for them to grasp), or Job is not a prophecy as such but a play where the part of God is scripted in.
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:49 AM   #69
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I don't know you brother, but what happened to WL was obvious. He so enjoyed his own spiritual "high" and moved on to create one of the most arrogant ministries, a ministry that could not stop disparaging other members of the body of Christ. He was so blinded by his own "vision" that he missed even the most obvious things when interpreting the Bible. The Bible became just a tool to prove he was right. A couple of examples I recently noticed...

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?

RecV footnote: (But) The prophets are great in their speaking concerning Christ but not in their speaking concerning other things. Micah's word here concerning what Jehovah requires of His people is not a matter of God's revelation but a matter of the prophet's concept...


Micah clearly stated "He has declared to you". Unless Micah was a liar, that message was from God.
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Alb, You introduced the footnote, not me. You chopped it up and are misrepresenting it, not me. Iím simply accommodating your preference to focus on the footnote. This footnote was chosen by you as the centerpiece of your argument. Now you want to run from it?
Drake, you have no idea how badly you look by defending this pitiful footnote in Micah 6.8. Instead of readily admitting that Lee overstepped his literary "rights," or blame it on some poor misguided editor like Ed Marks, you reinforce your concrete hardened battery to return fire on the "little brother" who pointed it out. Now if he was a "big brother," LSM would send a registered letter, quarantine him or file a lawsuit.

There has been no "chopping up" the footnote as you allege. Neither your standard line of "taking it out of context." It was just Lee being Lee. He regularly elevated his own ministry above scripture, and his acolytes swallowed it. Remember we are not ignorant outsiders. I was there a few decades, and alb has his own story. Witness Lee disparaged many a Psalm and a Proverb, and the whole book of James -- and how his ministry needed that book big time!

Here he takes on Micah. Why? Cause he could! It fit right into his "vision." Not the spiritual vision you talked about, but the "vision" the Blendeds still live by -- full of arrogant pride, condemning all Christianity, and disparaging inconvenient scriptures.
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Old 01-01-2018, 07:12 AM   #70
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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...
For example, these two verses are not a good match, since 6:8 is about being a good boy by our righteousness to please God, and Eph 2:8 is about pleasing God by accepting His righteousness, despite being a naughty boy.

Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves
...
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...
You suggested that the footnote makes Micah a liar. But if God was communicating divine revelation in this verse does that not make "God a liar"(it would contradict all the other verses I quoted previously) ?
...
Slow down, slow down brother please. It's difficult to discuss throwing out so many points at a time. Let me take on this more important one first:

If I understand it correctly, you said Micah 6:8 and Eph 2:8 are not good match. Then you used this "contradiction" and the fact that "God is not a liar" to prove one of the verse is not from God's revelation.

Actually what is the contradiction that you see? Did Micah say it is the condition for salvation? May be you have confused yourself between pleasing God and salvation.

If you want to pick out contradictions from the Bible, there are many more that seem to be "contradictions". Instead of jumping to conclusion one is from God and the other isn't, we should humble ourselves before God so He can let us see how to find the harmony among the "contradictions". After all, God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts than our thoughts.
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Old 01-01-2018, 09:37 AM   #71
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Alb,

Evangelical has provided you a very detailed and scholarly explanation including the grammatical construction of v8. Consider his response thoughtfully and you will be helped. I would add this much...

You can create any narrative you want by taking a snippet as you have done with the slicing and dicing of the footnote in Micah 6:8, but when you consider the entire footnote Brother Lee’s meaning becomes clear. Furthermore, if you read the four short chapters of the Lifestudy of Micah, particularly Message 3, the entire context of this footnote becomes even more clear. Even the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy, must give way to Christ. Brother Lee speaks very highly of the prophets in their speaking concerning Christ but sometimes they fell into talking about small things like weights and measures as Micah does in 6:10-11. This is all part of the context of Micah 6 and the point of the footnote. You have already conceded that not every word spoken by the prophets reflect the divine thought and attitude which is Brother Lee’s point too. If your error is simply misinterpretation of the construct of v8 then it is understandable and the explanation provided by Evangelical should clear that up. However, since you have yet to acknowledge the point of the footnote that Christ has replaced the law and God’s people should follow Christ and not the law then your understanding of this truth of the Christian faith remains dubious. I don’t really know what you think about that. That is why I asked you to establish that so we could find agreement or not because frankly, if you don’t understand that great truth of the Christian faith then contention over your snippets don’t matter at all.

Regards,
Drake
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Old 01-01-2018, 09:43 AM   #72
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Boxjobox,


As to LSM specifically, in my view is it has always been an extension to the work of ministry. It is a reasonable expectation that the role of LSM be defined, yet it will not surprise you that I view their contribution as beneficial to the local churches and not the heavy handed control organization of the local churches you described. And just to calm any angst about what I mean, I condemn and have condemned the actions of Philip Lee and have stated that someone should have called the cops but he does not define what LSM is or their total contribution to the work of ministry. Still, even if a LSM were to publish Harry Potter books it does not affect the vision that guides me because I did not receive it from LSM.

Thanks again for your post. Itís sincerity and lack of malice allowed me to give thoughtful consideration before the Lord. Please accept my response in the considerate spirit in which it is intended.

Drake
Drake, when I consider Paul, and then look at WL/LSM, I see no connection to or extension of the ministry. Paul, for instance went out of his way to preach the gospel without charge. Can you imagine what kind of empire Paul could have created if he had copyrighted his material? WL took what Paul freely gave and made a business out of it. He took the concept of the local church and made subsidiaries out of them to further his business. The saints became salesmen for his product. If that is the vision you have ( which I don't think it's what you are talking about) it's off the mark of the ministry. WL, to me, is basically saying "the scriptures are not clear, Paul came up short in his message and was very misunderstood, I'm correcting this shortcoming, I'm supplying the missing information, I've created this new product, and my business is going to mass- market this, under the LSM brand name". Thank God this is not what Paul did! My "vision of God, Christ, and the church" does not include the LSM model. I don't think I would compare the Corinthian church to the LC issues in that the problems in Cor. was with individual members, not with " the ministry".

I write this as well in a spirit of explanation, not attacking your vision, but explaining mine for comparison. If those meeting as the LC in my city were to drop the LSM affiliation, I would love to return and see the normal Christian church continue. What I saw happen leading up to the late 80's was not the normal Christian church.
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Old 01-01-2018, 10:30 AM   #73
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Boxjobox,

My experience was different but appreciate the explanation and the sincerity in your delivery.

Drake
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:24 PM   #74
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Boxjobox,

My experience was different but appreciate the explanation and the sincerity in your delivery.

Drake
So in your view, what should govern the direction of a local church? If some of the saints do not want LSM, should that be thrust on them? If you have a particular vision, and I have a different vision, yet we are both believers in Christ, and we are called to meet as the church, what is the guideline?
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Old 01-01-2018, 02:45 PM   #75
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-1

Alb,

Evangelical has provided you a very detailed and scholarly explanation including the grammatical construction of v8. Consider his response thoughtfully and you will be helped. I would add this much...

You can create any narrative you want by taking a snippet as you have done with the slicing and dicing of the footnote in Micah 6:8, but when you consider the entire footnote Brother Lee’s meaning becomes clear. Furthermore, if you read the four short chapters of the Lifestudy of Micah, particularly Message 3, the entire context of this footnote becomes even more clear. Even the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy, must give way to Christ. Brother Lee speaks very highly of the prophets in their speaking concerning Christ but sometimes they fell into talking about small things like weights and measures as Micah does in 6:10-11. This is all part of the context of Micah 6 and the point of the footnote. You have already conceded that not every word spoken by the prophets reflect the divine thought and attitude which is Brother Lee’s point too. If your error is simply misinterpretation of the construct of v8 then it is understandable and the explanation provided by Evangelical should clear that up. However, since you have yet to acknowledge the point of the footnote that Christ has replaced the law and God’s people should follow Christ and not the law then your understanding of this truth of the Christian faith remains dubious. I don’t really know what you think about that. That is why I asked you to establish that so we could find agreement or not because frankly, if you don’t understand that great truth of the Christian faith then contention over your snippets don’t matter at all.

Regards,
Drake
Be patient, Drake, be patient. My discussion with Evangelical is still in progress. I am still waiting for his reply. May be it will eventually lead to the topic you want to know too, who knows.

Meanwhile, I am also waiting for your reply in the "The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the Age" thread. I want to know what you think too.
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Old 01-01-2018, 04:41 PM   #76
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So in your view, what should govern the direction of a local church? If some of the saints do not want LSM, should that be thrust on them? If you have a particular vision, and I have a different vision, yet we are both believers in Christ, and we are called to meet as the church, what is the guideline?
I witnessed what were those "guidelines" were ten years ago in many GLA LC's. Those who wanted LSM could call their favorite book "supplier" who would send operatives from their legal team named DCP to assist local saints in filing lawsuits to takeover the meeting hall and the checking account. The unsuspecting victims faced huge financial debts and Biblical instructions against such lawsuits, and the unbelievable strain of suing those they once broke bread with weekly. In both Columbus and Mansfield, the "defendents" decided to cave in and walk away, rather than listen to the "plaintiffs" calling "O Looooord Geeeezus" in the hallways of The County Courthouse. (Read John Myer's opening account in "A Future and A Hope.")
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:22 PM   #77
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If I understand it correctly, you said Micah 6:8 and Eph 2:8 are not good match. Then you used this "contradiction" and the fact that "God is not a liar" to prove one of the verse is not from God's revelation.

Actually what is the contradiction that you see? Did Micah say it is the condition for salvation? May be you have confused yourself between pleasing God and salvation.
The contradiction is between the shadow (the law) and the reality (Christ). Micah 6:8 belongs to the period when the law was to point towards Christ. The written & moral law for Jews and the moral law for Gentiles. Both types of law are meant to show us our inability to keep it, and move us towards Christ.

Pleasing God is salvation. Being only a moral person does not please Him:

Heb 11: 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God

You see Micah 6:8 mentions nothing about faith in order to please God.

Micah 6:8 says God requires us to be humble and act rightly.

But Jesus told us what God requires of us here in John 6:29

Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.



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If you want to pick out contradictions from the Bible, there are many more that seem to be "contradictions". Instead of jumping to conclusion one is from God and the other isn't, we should humble ourselves before God so He can let us see how to find the harmony among the "contradictions". After all, God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts than our thoughts.
I have found the harmony by discerning the difference between law-keeping and grace. Sometimes dividing something confusing or contradictory into parts is a way to find resolution. The hypostatic union and the Trinity are examples of this.

Without dividing this rightly, a Christian may be confused about how they can please God. They may try to please God by keeping the commandments instead of by faith. Some Christians think they must please God by keeping the 10 commandments (9 commandments, they usually ignore the Sabbath) in addition to believing in Christ. Some go further and keep the Jewish commandments as well (about eating pork, circumcision etc).
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:49 PM   #78
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The contradiction is between the shadow (the law) and the reality (Christ). Micah 6:8 belongs to the period when the law was to point towards Christ. The written & moral law for Jews and the moral law for Gentiles. Both types of law are meant to show us our inability to keep it, and move us towards Christ.

Pleasing God is salvation. Being only a moral person does not please Him:

Heb 11: 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God

You see Micah 6:8 mentions nothing about faith in order to please God.

Micah 6:8 says God requires us to be humble and act rightly.

But Jesus told us what God requires of us here in John 6:29

Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.
Are you saying Micah only wrote about the shadow so it is not God's revelation? But you said the law was to point towards Christ. How about the ten commandments? They are shadows and not God's revelation?

You said being only a moral person cannot please God as if it is achievable by humans alone. Yet you said we are unable to keep moral laws.

Don't you see the contradiction inside your thoughts?

Micah actually did point us to Christ as the Way to fulfill these "moral laws" so to speak. Perhaps only the veiled Isralites missed the point.
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:03 PM   #79
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Are you saying Micah only wrote about the shadow so it is not God's revelation? But you said the law was to point towards Christ. How about the ten commandments? They are shadows and not God's revelation?
I understand Lee's use of the term "divine revelation" to refer to that concerning Christ, our salvation, and the church, and the future. Of course, the Law given to Moses was a divine revelation to him at the time. But compared to the New Testament it pales in comparison. The shadows were not God's will or plan for eternity - they served a temporary purpose.

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You said being only a moral person cannot please God as if it is something that can be achieved by humans alone. Yet you said we are unable to keep moral laws.

Don't you see the contradiction inside your thoughts?
I meant "being a moral person without faith does not please God". It doesn't please God enough that He would grant eternal salvation and the gift of the Spirit.

However, I'm open to God being lenient towards people who have not had the opportunity to hear about Christ who follow their conscience - they might be given an opportunity to believe in Christ at the resurrection.

Unable to keep moral laws refers to our inability to do it perfectly (we always need a Savior). Because humans are created as good-natured (despite the fall), it is possible for people to have a level of morality which is very good, yet insufficient for eternal salvation.

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Micah actually did point us to Christ as the Way to fulfill these "moral laws". Perhaps only the veiled Isralites missed the point.
Micah reveals Christ yes, even Lee wrote that. But I thought we are talking about this particular footnote. Let us not forget that everyone under the old testament period was veiled, even Moses and the greatest prophets. Jesus said whoever is least in the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist (and the old testament prophets).
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:21 PM   #80
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I understand Lee's use of the term "divine revelation" to refer to that concerning Christ, our salvation, and the church, and the future. Of course, the Law given to Moses was a divine revelation to him at the time. But compared to the New Testament it pales in comparison. The shadows were not God's will or plan for eternity - they served a temporary purpose.
Be very careful on what you say. You are starting to rank God's revelations.

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I meant "being a moral person without faith does not please God". It doesn't please God enough that He would grant eternal salvation and the gift of the Spirit.
Can someone be a moral person without faith? Are you referring to man's moral law or God's moral law? I begin to doubt whether you believe what you believe. You seems to be saying please God enough and He would grant eternal salvation and the gift of the Spirit.

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However, I'm open to God being lenient towards people who have not had the opportunity to hear about Christ who follow their conscience - they might be given an opportunity to believe in Christ at the resurrection.

Unable to keep moral laws refers to our inability to do it perfectly (we always need a Savior). Because humans are created as good-natured (despite the fall), it is possible for people to have a level of morality which is very good, yet insufficient for eternal salvation.
You are still using human standards. God is perfect, so we have to be perfect. When we cannot do it perfectly, we are not a moral person. That's why Paul quoted the scripture saying there is not a single righteous person.

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Micah reveals Christ yes, even Lee wrote that. But I thought we are talking about this particular footnote. Let us not forget that everyone under the old testament period was veiled, even Moses and the greatest prophets. Jesus said whoever is least in the kingdom is greater than John the Baptist (and the old testament prophets).
We are talking about Lee said Micah only spoke his own concept. I am glad you agreed Micah reveals Christ. I suppose you would also agree prophets who reveals Christ are led by the Holy Spririt.
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Old 01-01-2018, 06:31 PM   #81
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Be very careful on what you say. You are starting to rank God's revelations.
You think the shadows are more important than Christ then?

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Can someone be a moral person without faith? Are you referring to man's moral law or God's moral law? I begin to doubt whether you believe what you believe. You seems to be saying please God enough and He would grant eternal salvation and the gift of the Spirit.
Of course a person can be moral without faith. There are many good atheists, some who put even Christians to shame in their morals.

When did I ever say that pleasing God enough will do that.
Did I not say that without faith it's impossible to please God?


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You are still using human standards. God is perfect, so we have to be perfect. When we cannot do it perfectly, we are not a moral person. That's why Paul quoted the scripture saying there is not a single righteous person.
Disagree. The bible speaks of good men and evil men (Matt 12:35). A good man would be a moral person.
God's creation is inherently good, even though it was corrupted through the fall.
When Paul writes that there is not a single righteous person, this is in context of pointing us towards our need for a Savior. This does not deny the fact that there are good people and bad people in the world. Sometimes good people are called righteous people, meaning people who do or say what is right. This would be righteousness in character, not righteousness for salvation.


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We are talking about Lee said Micah only spoke his own concept. I am glad you agreed Micah reveals Christ. I suppose you would also agree no one can reveal Christ unless it is led by the Holy Spririt.
The question is, does Micah always reveal Christ in everything he says in absolutely every way? I think only Christ himself can perfectly reveal Christ.
Don't forget that fallen Creation reveals Christ too (Romans 1:20). I'm open to the idea that a person does not have to be led by the Spirit to reveal Christ. I have heard of unbelievers preaching the gospel and this resulting in salvations.
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Old 01-01-2018, 07:28 PM   #82
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You think the shadows are more important than Christ then?
I would be more cautious putting things into the "shadows" category and lower their importance.

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Of course a person can be moral without faith. There are many good atheists, some who put even Christians to shame in their morals.
I take it as you were only referring to human moral law and not God's moral law in the Old Testament. Aren't we supposed to be God-centered people trying to understand things from His perspective instead?

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When did I ever say that pleasing God enough will do that. Did I not say that without faith it's impossible to please God?
You said "it doesn't please God enough that He would grant eternal salvation and the gift of the Spirit." Sounds like something else would please God enough that He would grant eternal salvation. May be that's not what you meant. I'll take this back.

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Disagree. The bible speaks of good men and evil men (Matt 12:35). A good man would be a moral person.
God's creation is inherently good, even though it was corrupted through the fall.
When Paul writes that there is not a single righteous person, this is in context of pointing us towards our need for a Savior. This does not deny the fact that there are good people and bad people in the world. Sometimes good people are called righteous people, meaning people who do or say what is right. This would be righteousness in character, not righteousness for salvation.
Seems you are referring to human moral standards again here.

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The question is, does Micah always reveal Christ in everything he says in absolutely every way? I think only Christ himself can perfectly reveal Christ.
Don't forget that fallen Creation reveals Christ too (Romans 1:20). I'm open to the idea that a person does not have to be led by the Spirit to reveal Christ. I have heard of unbelievers preaching the gospel and this resulting in salvations.
You have wandered off again. We were specifically talking about Micah 6:8 all the time. What does it have to do with always revealing Christ in everything Micah says in absolutely every way?

You are right about who/what can reveal Christ. Even demons revealed the identity of Son of God. But I am quite confident that Micah is not in that category.

Prophets like Micah simply do not (dare not?) use Jehovah's name lightly to support their own human concept.
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:08 AM   #83
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I would be more cautious putting things into the "shadows" category and lower their importance.
The Bible does that for us:

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming

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I take it as you were only referring to human moral law and not God's moral law in the Old Testament. Aren't we supposed to be God-centered people trying to understand things from His perspective instead?
This is nonsense. The natural law God placed in men's hearts is the same law expressed in the 10 commandments.

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You said "it doesn't please God enough that He would grant eternal salvation and the gift of the Spirit." Sounds like something else would please God enough that He would grant eternal salvation. May be that's not what you meant. I'll take this back.
The it is ambiguous. It is not a good idea to start a sentence with it. I meant being a moral person doesn't please God enough that He would grant eternal salvation and the gift of the Spirit.


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Seems you are referring to human moral standards again here.
Whatever that means I don't know. To me there is only one human moral standard as expressed in the 10 commandments.


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You have wandered off again. We were specifically talking about Micah 6:8 all the time. What does it have to do with always revealing Christ in everything Micah says in absolutely every way?
Just clarifying that although Micah reveals Christ it does not mean Micah must always reveal Christ.

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You are right about who/what can reveal Christ. Even demons revealed the identity of Son of God. But I am quite confident that Micah is not in that category.
I don't think I ever said Micah was in that category, neither does the footnote.

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Prophets like Micah simply do not (dare not?) use Jehovah's name lightly to support their own human concept.
In what way was Micah using God's name in Micah 6:8? As I showed previously, it does not say "The Lord saith".
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:20 AM   #84
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So in your view, what should govern the direction of a local church? If some of the saints do not want LSM, should that be thrust on them? If you have a particular vision, and I have a different vision, yet we are both believers in Christ, and we are called to meet as the church, what is the guideline?
Ok, so we live in the same city, town ,village Etc. We are born again believers. We all agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and it’s truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system.

Given that, if you have a vision of Christ and the church and I have a vision of howling at the moon, we are still members of the same local church and would not have a basis for meeting separately. Though you would rightfully require of me to justify my belief from the scripture and respect order in the meetings we are still members of the church in our locality.

In like manner, if you never want to read anything published by LSM, go to a conference or a training sponsored by LSM, read or quote from anything published by LSM, take part in the work of ministry by LSM such as Bible distribution, or evangelical outreach in word, deed, or financial contribution then you are nevertheless a fellow believer in the local church where we both live and are under no obligation to do any of those things. Likewise, you should not prevent me from using LSM materials in my daily study or church life, go to conferences, trainings, contribute to the work of ministry etc.

That would be the guideline in my view.

Drake
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:33 AM   #85
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Be patient, Drake, be patient. My discussion with Evangelical is still in progress. I am still waiting for his reply. May be it will eventually lead to the topic you want to know too, who knows.

Meanwhile, I am also waiting for your reply in the "The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the Age" thread. I want to know what you think too.
Alb,

I think I need to clarify something. You are under no obligation to answer my inquiries. I am not really insisting that you do. Itís up to you. I believe my questions to be relevant to our discussion. However, if you choose to avoid them that is entirely up to you. I will draw inferences and conclusions based on what you tell me and what you donít. Patience is not relevant on my side. I can let our conversation stand as is and am willing to let the reader decide. Iím not going anywhere just yet so , please take your time. No rush.

Drake
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:55 AM   #86
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The Bible does that for us:
Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming

This is nonsense. The natural law God placed in men's hearts is the same law expressed in the 10 commandments.
If the "natural law" is already in men's heart, can men fulfill them?

Why did God have to issue the 10 commandments again?

Why did Jesus and Paul still talk about mercy, humility, ...?

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In what way was Micah using God's name in Micah 6:8? As I showed previously, it does not say "The Lord saith".
Isn't declared a stronger word than said? Why must a prophet use said when representing God's word? Is this a standard format every prophet needs to follow? Where was this stated in the scripture?

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?
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Old 01-02-2018, 01:59 AM   #87
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Alb,

I think I need to clarify something. You are under no obligation to answer my inquiries. I am not really insisting that you do. It’s up to you. I believe my questions to be relevant to our discussion. However, if you choose to avoid them that is entirely up to you. I will draw inferences and conclusions based on what you tell me and what you don’t. Patience is not relevant on my side. I can let our conversation stand as is and am willing to let the reader decide. I’m not going anywhere just yet so , please take your time. No rush.

Drake
Thank you for your patience. As I said, may be we will eventually come to this topic along my discussion with Evangelical. I can't handle too many different things at a time.

Meanwhile, I will wait for your reply too on the other thread I mentioned earlier. I have been waiting the answer of one of the questions for more than 6 months and don't mind waiting a bit longer. The answer may be more important to you than to me. However, if you choose to avoid it that is entirely up to you.
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Old 01-02-2018, 02:21 AM   #88
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If the "natural law" is already in men's heart, can men fulfill them?

Why did God have to issue the 10 commandments again?

Why did Jesus and Paul still talk about mercy, humility, ...?
No, men cannot fulfill the law, either moral or written.

It's a good question. Why did God need to give written commandments to the Israelites?

Because God issued a new covenant - the Mosaic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was not sufficient for the kind of relationship God wanted to have with the Israelites following Egypt. The Israelites were his special people called from among all the nations. So they received the law of Moses as part of this special covenant between God and the Israelites, which had to cover all of the various matters that a specially chosen people of God would have to abide by. It was a total of 636 laws of which the 10 commandments are only an incomplete summary (the 10 do not include the 2 greatest commandments, for example).

The gentiles on the other hand had the moral law in their hearts but did not need to follow circumcision, eating pork, feast days etc. Adam, Abel, Noah and others lived this way.


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Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
Isn't declared a stronger word than said? Why must a prophet use said when representing God's word? Is this a standard format every prophet needs to follow? Where was this stated in the scripture?

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?
When God sent a message to His people, He wanted them to be clear about who the message was from. God did not want the people to think that the message came from the prophet's own hearts. It was God's will for His prophets to say "this is what the Lord says". God specifically instructed them to say "this is what the Lord says:"

Exo 8:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD says:

Similarly in 1 Kings 21:19 -
"Say to him, 'This is what the LORD says:

Ezek 20:3 "Son of man, speak to the elders of Israel and say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:

So these words came from God, not the prophets themselves.

This is the reoccurring pattern. Usually a prophet would state when they are speaking God's word and when they are not:

Zech 1:16 "Therefore this is what the LORD says:
Jer 34:2 "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says:
Ezek 12:28 ""Therefore say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
Isaiah 66:1 "This is what the LORD says:
2 Kings 7:1 "This is what the LORD says:
Zech 8:3 "This is what the LORD says:"..

Even the false prophets were using this pattern:

Jer 23:31 "Behold, I am against the prophets, declares the LORD, who use their tongues and declare, ‘declares the LORD.’"

Using this knowledge we can know which parts of the bible are God speaking direct message to the prophet, and when the prophets are paraphrasing or narrating. The paraphrasing or narrating is likely to contain their own human wisdom and opinions, educational learning, language and style etc.
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Old 01-02-2018, 03:04 AM   #89
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No, men cannot fulfill the law, either moral or written.
I am still confused about what you believe. You now say men cannot fulfill the moral law but you also said men can be moral person. I don't see how these two goes together by the standard of God.

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
It's a good question. Why did God need to give written commandments to the Israelites?

Because God issued a new covenant - the Mosaic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was not sufficient for the kind of relationship God wanted to have with the Israelites following Egypt. The Israelites were his special people called from among all the nations. So they received the law of Moses as part of this special covenant between God and the Israelites, which had to cover all of the various matters that a specially chosen people of God would have to abide by. It was a total of 636 laws of which the 10 commandments are only an incomplete summary (the 10 do not include the 2 greatest commandments, for example).

The gentiles on the other hand had the moral law in their hearts but did not need to follow circumcision, eating pork, feast days etc. Adam, Abel, Noah and others lived this way.
Some minor typos - I think the total number of laws should be 613. I believe it was after the flood that men began to eat meat. So Adam and Abel didn't eat pork. For the rest, I can live with it at the moment though it doesn't quite explain why God has to include the moral laws again if they are already in men's heart.

But you haven't answered why Jesus and Paul still need to talk about mercy and humility.

For your reference:

Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law -- justice and mercy and faithfulness. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

Does it sound familiar? Does this contradict with Micah?

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
When God sent a message to His people, He wanted them to be clear about who the message was from. God did not want the people to think that the message came from the prophet's own hearts. It was God's will for His prophets to say "this is what the Lord says". God specifically instructed them to say "this is what the Lord says:"
......
So we can ignore 99% (don't challenge me on the accuracy. Just a figure of speech) of Lee's messages? I seldom read "that is what the Lord says" from his messages.
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Old 01-02-2018, 05:23 AM   #90
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ZNP>Ē...presuming to have a higher vision or revelation than the Bible.Ē

There is no revelation or vision higher than that we find in the Bible.

Drake
Do you agree with Witness Lee's interpretation of the Psalms that the different psalms were at three different levels of revelation, one of which was merely man's concept.

My issue with Witness Lee was not with the vision of the NT he embraced, it was with the parts of the Bible he disparaged.
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Old 01-02-2018, 05:40 AM   #91
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To show you the difference I have found examples of old testament passages which DO contain divine revelation (about the future righteousness of God):

Isaiah 54:17, Isaiah 46:13, Isaiah 51:5, Isaiah 56:1, Isaiah 45:24-25, Isaiah 61:10, Isaiah 51:6, Psalm 89:16, , Daniel 9:24, Jeremiah 23:6.
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
When God sent a message to His people, He wanted them to be clear about who the message was from. God did not want the people to think that the message came from the prophet's own hearts. It was God's will for His prophets to say "this is what the Lord says". God specifically instructed them to say "this is what the Lord says:"
Well, I actually spent time to look up the verses that DO contain divine revelation as you mentioned. So what did I find? Sorry, not all of them have "this is what the Lord says". And some actually use "declares". So what do you say?

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against you will prosper, And every tongue that rises up to judge you, you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness which is of Me, declares Jehovah.

Psa 89:16 In Your name they exult all day long, And in Your righteousness they are exalted.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are apportioned for your people and for your holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make propitiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

Jer 23:5-6 Indeed, days are coming, Declares Jehovah, When I will raise up to David a righteous Shoot; And He will reign as King and act prudently And will execute justice and righteousness in the land. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, Jehovah our righteousness.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:17 AM   #92
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Well, I actually spent time to look up the verses that DO contain divine revelation as you mentioned. So what did I find? Sorry, not all of them have "this is what the Lord says". And some actually use "declares". So what do you say?

Isa 54:17 No weapon that is formed against you will prosper, And every tongue that rises up to judge you, you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of Jehovah, And their righteousness which is of Me, declares Jehovah.

Psa 89:16 In Your name they exult all day long, And in Your righteousness they are exalted.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are apportioned for your people and for your holy city, to close the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make propitiation for iniquity, and to bring in the righteousness of the ages, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the Holy of Holies.

Jer 23:5-6 Indeed, days are coming, Declares Jehovah, When I will raise up to David a righteous Shoot; And He will reign as King and act prudently And will execute justice and righteousness in the land. In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, Jehovah our righteousness.
I don't think I was ruling out all the other ways we can know it is God speaking. Take Jeremiah 23 for example. The words "declares the Lord" are found in numerous places. Where does it say that in micah 6.8?
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:49 AM   #93
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I am still confused about what you believe. You now say men cannot fulfill the moral law but you also said men can be moral person. I don't see how these two goes together by the standard of God.
Men cannot fulfil the moral law perfectly but they can be moral in the sense that they mostly are good people and do what is right.

Also the bible says there is no one who is good yet it speaks of good and evil people. Some people think God only sees believers as only good and unbelievers as only evil and this is simply not true. God weighs the good and evil of each person.

Ecc 7.20 resolves the apparent contradiction.




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Some minor typos - I think the total number of laws should be 613. I believe it was after the flood that men began to eat meat. So Adam and Abel didn't eat pork. For the rest, I can live with it at the moment though it doesn't quite explain why God has to include the moral laws again if they are already in men's heart.

But you haven't answered why Jesus and Paul still need to talk about mercy and humility.

For your reference:

Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law -- justice and mercy and faithfulness. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

Does it sound familiar? Does this contradict with Micah?
It fits well with Micah. What verse of Paul do you have in mind. Is Paul saying God requires justice and mercy for salvation?

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Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
So we can ignore 99% (don't challenge me on the accuracy. Just a figure of speech) of Lee's messages? I seldom read "that is what the Lord says" from his messages.
Messages are not old testament prophecies are they.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:53 AM   #94
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I am still confused about what you believe. You now say men cannot fulfill the moral law but you also said men can be moral person. I don't see how these two goes together by the standard of God.
Men cannot fulfil the moral law perfectly but they can be moral in the sense that they mostly are good people and do what is right.

Also the bible says there is no one who is good yet it speaks of good and evil people. Some people think God only sees believers as only good and unbelievers as only evil and this is simply not true. God weighs the good and evil of each person.

Ecc 7.20 resolves the apparent contradiction.




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Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
Some minor typos - I think the total number of laws should be 613. I believe it was after the flood that men began to eat meat. So Adam and Abel didn't eat pork. For the rest, I can live with it at the moment though it doesn't quite explain why God has to include the moral laws again if they are already in men's heart.

But you haven't answered why Jesus and Paul still need to talk about mercy and humility.

For your reference:

Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you give a tenth of the mint and the anise and the cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law -- justice and mercy and faithfulness. But these you should have done and not neglected the others.

Does it sound familiar? Does this contradict with Micah?
It fits well with Micah. What verse of Paul do you have in mind. Is Paul saying God requires justice and mercy for salvation?

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Originally Posted by A little brother View Post
So we can ignore 99% (don't challenge me on the accuracy. Just a figure of speech) of Lee's messages? I seldom read "that is what the Lord says" from his messages.
Messages are not old testament prophecies are they. Also God forbade people from saying the lord saith because of its misuse. Its in Jeremiah.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:51 AM   #95
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I don't think I was ruling out all the other ways we can know it is God speaking. Take Jeremiah 23 for example. The words "declares the Lord" are found in numerous places. Where does it say that in micah 6.8?
In the RecV. What else? Unless you are saying "He has declared" is not "declares the Lord". Or may be the RecV is a bad translation?

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Men cannot fulfil the moral law perfectly but they can be moral in the sense that they mostly are good people and do what is right.

Also the bible says there is no one who is good yet it speaks of good and evil people. Some people think God only sees believers as only good and unbelievers as only evil and this is simply not true. God weighs the good and evil of each person.

Ecc 7.20 resolves the apparent contradiction.
Perhaps you should pay more attention to what is God's standard:

Matthew 5:48 You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
It fits well with Micah. What verse of Paul do you have in mind. Is Paul saying God requires justice and mercy for salvation?
Since when Paul became a greater prophet than Jesus? Because he was the MOTA?

I have to remind you again. We are discussing whether Micah 6:8 was God's word or human concept. You have agreed what Jesus said in Mat 23:23 fits well with Micah 6:8. So probably you should also agree Micah was speaking God's words instead of his own concept.

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Messages are not old testament prophecies are they. Also God forbade people from saying the lord saith because of its misuse. Its in Jeremiah.
Why then the LC keeps insisting every member to "prophesy"?

Did you notice who were God addressing to when He forbade them from saying the lord saith in Jeremiah? You are equating WL to that group of people? Good point.
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Old 01-02-2018, 09:37 AM   #96
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In the RecV. What else? Unless you are saying "He has declared" is not "declares the Lord". Or may be the RecV is a bad translation?

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?
It's truly amazing what they will go thru to defend Lee.

It's no different than when I grew up in the Catholic Church. They have a teaching that the Pope is infallible regarding faith and doctrine. Wikipedia says this: Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church."

LSMers can hem and haw till hell freezes over, but that's exactly what they believe too. Just change Peter, the first Pope, to Paul, the first MOTA. Remember the popular saying about Lee during the New Way, "Even when he's wrong ... he's right"? By Definition!
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Old 01-02-2018, 02:13 PM   #97
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In the RecV. What else? Unless you are saying "He has declared" is not "declares the Lord". Or may be the RecV is a bad translation?

Micah 6:8 He has declared to you, O man, what is good; And what does Jehovah require of you, But that you would execute justice and love mercy And walk humbly with your God?
Let's compare the difference.

Jer 23.1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord.

As you can see, this is a direct quote of the Lord. Micah 6.8 isnt, is it.

Consult the bible commentaries about this. The grammar of the verse is Micah's words, not Gods. Maybe you could provide some scholarly backing to your view that Micah 6.8 is Gods words and not the prophet's.


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Perhaps you should pay more attention to what is God's standard:

Matthew 5:48 You therefore shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I agree that Micah 6.8 does not reveal Gods standard which is Christ. Thats essentially what the footnote says. Since it does not reveal Gods standard of perfection how can you say it is divine revelation?


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Since when Paul became a greater prophet than Jesus? Because he was the MOTA?

I have to remind you again. We are discussing whether Micah 6:8 was God's word or human concept. You have agreed what Jesus said in Mat 23:23 fits well with Micah 6:8. So probably you should also agree Micah was speaking God's words instead of his own concept.
Why are you asking me about Paul. You asked why Paul talked about mercy yet I wondered what verse you had in mind, you have not said.

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Why then the LC keeps insisting every member to "prophesy"?

Did you notice who were God addressing to when He forbade them from saying the lord saith in Jeremiah? You are equating WL to that group of people? Good point.
Man, you are embarrassing yourself showing everyone you dont know the difference between old testament and new testament prophecy. You can redeem yourself however by acknowledging that prophesying in the meetings is not the same as old testament prophecy. It would be very awkward with everyone being naked.
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Old 01-02-2018, 04:06 PM   #98
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Let's compare the difference.

Jer 23.1 “Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord.

As you can see, this is a direct quote of the Lord. Micah 6.8 isnt, is it.

Consult the bible commentaries about this. The grammar of the verse is Micah's words, not Gods. Maybe you could provide some scholarly backing to your view that Micah 6.8 is Gods words and not the prophet's.
Why isn't Micah 6:8 a direct quote? It is just the difference between present and present perfect tense.

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I agree that Micah 6.8 does not reveal Gods standard which is Christ. Thats essentially what the footnote says. Since it does not reveal Gods standard of perfection how can you say it is divine revelation?
Brother, I have already lost count of how many times you contradict yourself in this discussion. Not long ago you agreed Micah reveals Christ. Now you say Micah does not reveal Christ. Aren't justice, mercy and humility parts of God's standard of perfection? Does Micah have to include all standards of God in one verse?

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Why are you asking me about Paul. You asked why Paul talked about mercy yet I wondered what verse you had in mind, you have not said.
I asked about Paul because Jesus' words didn't seem enough for you. You asked for Paul's confirmation even though I quoted Jesus' own words that match Micah 6:8.

Let's see what Paul said about mercy:

Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

As Paul said, God is rich in mercy. Mercy is an attribute of God, not just human moral.

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Man, you are embarrassing yourself showing everyone you dont know the difference between old testament and new testament prophecy. You can redeem yourself however by acknowledging that prophesying in the meetings is not the same as old testament prophecy. It would be very awkward with everyone being naked.
I almost feel good seeing this comment from you. I would rather embarrass myself in your eyes than before God.

During this discussion, you tried to divert the topic, you contradicted yourself, you pretended to be scholarly but there is no substance in your argument. You were relentlessly defending the footnote instead of God's truth. This is a perfect demonstration of the fruit of WL.

Yes, I am one of the "32m" who have heard of WL. I have heard of him and also witnessed his fruit.
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Old 01-02-2018, 07:49 PM   #99
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Why isn't Micah 6:8 a direct quote? It is not direct or indirect. It's just the difference between active/passive voice and present/present perfect tense.
Easy. It's not a quote because it doesn't contain quotation marks.

I take the lack of scholarly support coming from you as a sign that you don't have any.

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Brother, I have already lost count of how many times you contradict yourself in this discussion. Not long ago you agreed Micah reveals Christ. Now you say Micah does not reveal Christ. Aren't justice, mercy and humility parts of God's standard of perfection? Does Micah have to include all standards of God in one verse?
Then I think I said not everything Micah writes reveals Christ.

A verse which says God requires us to obey the Lord to be saved is definitely not revealing Christ which is about His righteousness saving us, not our own works or morals.

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I asked about Paul because Jesus' words didn't seem enough for you. You asked for Paul's confirmation even though I quoted Jesus' own words that match Micah 6:8.

Let's see what Paul said about mercy:

Ephesians 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

As Paul said, God is rich in mercy. Mercy is an attribute of God, not just human moral.
Why don't you quote the rest of that sentence in verse 25 :

made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

Seems to me that the mercy Paul speaks of is the mercy of God towards us in Christ by saving us by grace alone.

This is not the same thing as Micah which says God requires us to be merciful and what Jesus said in Matt 23:23. This time period was when the Jews were still under the law (written and moral). But now we are under the grace.

I don't think many Christians pay much attention to Matt 23:23. When was the last time you ground pepper and salt into the collection plate? The type of righteousness achieved by obeying Matt 23:23 is but a shadow of the righteousness that comes by faith.


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I almost feel good seeing this comment from you. I would rather embarrass myself in your eyes than before God.

During this discussion, you tried to divert the topic, you contradicted yourself, you pretended to be scholarly but there is no substance in your argument. You were relentlessly defending the footnote instead of God's truth. This is a perfect demonstration of the fruit of WL.

Yes, I am one of the "32m" who have heard of WL. I have heard of him and also witnessed his fruit.
I don't know what truth you think you are defending but seems to me you are defending the shadows rather than defending Christ.

This is evident when you warned me against lowering the importance of the shadows however the bible itself e.g. Hebrews 10:1 already lowers it by saying the law is "only a shadow".

I must say in all my time on here this has one of been the weakest arguments against the footnotes. I also note that not many are coming to your defense and presenting any convincing arguments from bible scholars or otherwise to support you.

Firstly you seem confused about the difference between old testament and new testament prophecy. It's very strange that having shown you the consistent pattern of language in old testament prophecy, that you would then try to link that back to local church "prophesying" meetings as if there is some kind of clear relationship.

You have not seemed to realize the difference between a direct quote from God "thus saith the Lord , or 'declares the Lord' and human opinion, or that prophecies can contain a mixture of divine revelation and human opinion (morals, ethics, scientific worldview at the time, etc).

Probably my biggest concern is a conflated argument on the piecemeal interpretation of a single footnote.
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Old 01-02-2018, 08:25 PM   #100
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>alb “Why then the LC keeps insisting every member to "prophesy"?

Alb,

I am really puzzled by this comment. If I recall, I thought you were at some point an active functioning member in a local church. So you would know the answer to the above question and you would also know the difference between that and the old testament prophets. But now I am wondering so please clarify ... when you were attending the local church meetings was prophesying practiced, if so, when did prophesying occur, and what were you told was the purpose?

Thanks
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Old 01-02-2018, 08:59 PM   #101
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Do you agree with Witness Lee's interpretation of the Psalms that the different psalms were at three different levels of revelation, one of which was merely man's concept.

My issue with Witness Lee was not with the vision of the NT he embraced, it was with the parts of the Bible he disparaged.
Hi ZNP,

If you provide the complete reference in context and explain why you disagree with it I’ll be happy to provide my point of view.

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Old 01-02-2018, 10:00 PM   #102
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>alb “Why then the LC keeps insisting every member to "prophesy"?

Alb,

I am really puzzled by this comment. If I recall, I thought you were at some point an active functioning member in a local church. So you would know the answer to the above question and you would also know the difference between that and the old testament prophets. But now I am wondering so please clarify ... when you were attending the local church meetings was prophesying practiced, if so, when did prophesying occur, and what were you told was the purpose?

Thanks
Drake
No worry. The LC did a good job reminding me the concept of prophesying from time to time. Just that all of a sudden Evangelical said "the lord saith" must be added to speak God's revelation. I couldn't help wondered why no one in the LC told me this important piece of informaton before. Have we been speaking only our own concept instead of God's word all the time?

Now that he clarified the old testament prophecy and new testament prophecy are different. I am fine with that. Only I couldn't help wonder how did this "the lord saith" requirement began and how did it end. I don't recall coming across this in the scripture.

But I don't have the energy to further pursue this for the time being. It was a bit exhausting understanding the way Evangelical thinks. Still need to answer his reply.
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Old 01-02-2018, 10:48 PM   #103
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-1

Ok alb. It just looks like you were becoming combative in the last few posts by disagreeing about teachings and practices I’m sure you already understood. It’s expected we will disagree about most topics but being or having been a member of a local church you already knew the answer to your question. So no need for the banter on those items. Plenty of topics to sort through.

Drake
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:28 AM   #104
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Easy. It's not a quote because it doesn't contain quotation marks.
Haha, what else can I say?

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A verse which says God requires us to obey the Lord to be saved is definitely not revealing Christ which is about His righteousness saving us, not our own works or morals.
Hurray, we finally come full circle. Micah 6:8 says obey the Lord to be saved and this is just the prophet's own concept because the footnote said so. Right?

Once again I failed to convince you. But I think I've said enough. Nice talking to you.
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:51 AM   #105
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Hi ZNP,

If you provide the complete reference in context and explain why you disagree with it Iíll be happy to provide my point of view.

Drake
There are two threads that deal with this directly (see Post #1 on each thread) and they are both open for discussion. Therefore I would direct you to those threads since they provide references, context and explain why different ones, myself included disagree with Witness Lee's interpretation.

The Psalms are the word of Christ

The book of James and the LRC
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:53 AM   #106
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-1

Ok alb. It just looks like you were becoming combative in the last few posts by disagreeing about teachings and practices Iím sure you already understood. Itís expected we will disagree about most topics but being or having been a member of a local church you already knew the answer to your question. So no need for the banter on those items. Plenty of topics to sort through.

Drake
Praying for you Drake.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:24 AM   #107
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There are two threads that deal with this directly (see Post #1 on each thread) and they are both open for discussion. Therefore I would direct you to those threads since they provide references, context and explain why different ones, myself included disagree with Witness Lee's interpretation.

The Psalms are the word of Christ

The book of James and the LRC
Ok. Hyperlink me to the post in the thread that references the three different levels of revelation. I searched for that thread but could not find it.

Drake
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:44 AM   #108
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Ok alb. It just looks like you were becoming combative in the last few posts by disagreeing about teachings and practices I’m sure you already understood. It’s expected we will disagree about most topics but being or having been a member of a local church you already knew the answer to your question. So no need for the banter on those items. Plenty of topics to sort through.

Drake
Combative? No. May be zealous. There are things I am urged to say. May be one day all these will make sense...
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:20 AM   #109
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Ok. Hyperlink me to the post in the thread that references the three different levels of revelation. I searched for that thread but could not find it.

Drake
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...?t=3246&page=2

Post #1 does a nice job of presenting the basic WL teaching. There are many other posts that go into detail. Anyone who was present in the Psalms training was well aware that according to WL some Psalms have the highest revelation, some are merely the natural concept of the writer, and some fall in between.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:49 AM   #110
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Ok, so we live in the same city, town ,village Etc. We are born again believers. We all agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and itís truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system.

Given that, if you have a vision of Christ and the church and I have a vision of howling at the moon, we are still members of the same local church and would not have a basis for meeting separately. Though you would rightfully require of me to justify my belief from the scripture and respect order in the meetings we are still members of the church in our locality.

In like manner, if you never want to read anything published by LSM, go to a conference or a training sponsored by LSM, read or quote from anything published by LSM, take part in the work of ministry by LSM such as Bible distribution, or evangelical outreach in word, deed, or financial contribution then you are nevertheless a fellow believer in the local church where we both live and are under no obligation to do any of those things. Likewise, you should not prevent me from using LSM materials in my daily study or church life, go to conferences, trainings, contribute to the work of ministry etc.

That would be the guideline in my view.

Drake
Let's put it this way- so in the local church, the elders send you a letter and say we are one with the ministry of J Vernon McGee. All the books in the book room are gone except JVM books, in the meetings all material is from Through the Bible ministry, if you don't participate and openly show a desire not to participate, you are divisive etc. etc.

Seems to me that those meeting in such a way should give up using the title The Church in XYZ and call themselves the church that follows J Vernon Mc Gee.

For conscience sake, and for the sake of the truth, those who call themselves The Church in XYZ should not have any affiliation with LSM. I'm fine with saints in their own space following LSM, but in the church, it is an offense, it is a denomination factor which we should call sinful, in that it divides the saints according to preference.
Those meeting as the LC in my city should either disassociate with LSM, or change their title to the church of LSM. Each creature after its own kind! If those of the LC wish to produce others who will follow LSM then call the creature and the offspring LSM and not the LC!
As I say, for conscience sake and for truth's sake, this LSM thing needs to be cast out of the LC in my city so that I, as a Christian can come together with the other believers and meet without this divisive element.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:41 AM   #111
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Anyone who was present in the Psalms training was well aware that according to WL some Psalms have the highest revelation, some are merely the natural concept of the writer, and some fall in between.
And not just the Psalms. Here is a quote from the Life-study of the Minor Prophets by Witness Lee

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In contrast, Amos and Micah used many more chapters than Joel to speak of things other than Christ. When these prophets spoke concerning Christ, they spoke great things, but when they expressed their own natural concept and opinion, they were like some of the psalmists. For instance, Micah 6:8 says, “He has declared to you, O man, what is good; / And what does Jehovah require of you, / But that you would execute justice and love lovingkindness / And walk humbly with your God?” Is this word according to the tree of life or according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Surely it is according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Is this word according to the divine revelation or according to the human concept of the prophet? This word is not a matter of God’s revelation but of the prophet’s concept..
Here is "what is good" - that Jesus Christ did what the Father required of Him; that Jesus Christ executed (and will execute) justice; simultaneously expressed God's lovingkindness; and that Jesus walked humbly with His Father God. We can see it. We know it. Yet Witness Lee spurned it, in his teaching.

Witness Lee turned us away from Jesus. In a recent training I heard Ed Marks talk about how God the Father delighted in Jesus the Son. Ed supplied numerous NT quotes. But he didn't quote Psalm 18's "he [the Father] delighted in Me [Jesus the Son]" because Witness Lee had panned it as fallen human concept.

Witness Lee shut the door on Christ, and would not allow others to enter. What kind of a teaching, what kind of a ministry is this?
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:44 AM   #112
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Haha, what else can I say?

Hurray, we finally come full circle. Micah 6:8 says obey the Lord to be saved and this is just the prophet's own concept because the footnote said so. Right?

Once again I failed to convince you. But I think I've said enough. Nice talking to you.
I learned long ago that LCers can never be convinced of anything. Remember I was once one myself, and was willing and ready to lay down my life for the cause.

Then why write? Twofold, firstly it helps the writer un-leaven his understanding of the many fortified strongholds we have developed over the years in the LSM system. Interactions, challenges, defenses, post replies, all the while digging thru the scriptures, have become invaluable to me personally. Leavened teachings abound in the LC's, and this forum can help remedy that. "Purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump."

Secondly, I always remind myself that I am also writing for the unknown reader, the lurker. New forum members continually testify that they have been reading the forum, sometimes for years, before working up the courage to actually post. Current members do them a great service by the back-n-forth rehash of the same teachings they hear in the meetings. I say let the reader decide! This forum does not "poison" anyone, rather it gives the reader choices. It's like going away to college and learning all your classmates are atheists. You need to "know whom you believe in."

So I say present all your best arguments, and when challenged, dig some more. At that point I usually quit. Let them supposedly have the "last word." No one can convince them. I did not remain in the LC because LSM "won" every argument, rather until this forum developed, I never got to hear the "rest of the story," as Paul Harvey would say.
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:58 AM   #113
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As I say, for conscience sake and for truth's sake, this LSM thing needs to be cast out of the LC in my city so that I, as a Christian can come together with the other believers and meet without this divisive element.
Back in 2002-2003 Titua Chu had all the regional LC leaders read thru W. Nee's The Normal Christian Church Life. Supposedly that was our pattern, a high peak revelation in the Recovery, our LC "mission statement." I'm sure TC wanted to show us just how far off the Blendeds in Anaheim had gone. Actually, it was a risky endeavor, since at the same time many of us saw the endless deviations of Lee himself. So you say, why not compare with scripture, and I agree. But diehard LCers as we were knew the overlay better than the scriptures.

The impact on me was kind of devastating. Being a LC tied to only one ministry is one of the heretical deviations Nee warned us of. One time brothers approached W. Lee about Nee's book, and Lee brushed them off, "don't tell me about that book, I was there!" Yet, when Lee first came to the USA, he traveled extensively gathering all the brothers who were enthralled by Nee's vision. It took years for many to realize that Lee simply pulled a "bait and switch."
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:02 PM   #114
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And not just the Psalms. Here is a quote from the Life-study of the Minor Prophets by Witness Lee


Here is "what is good" - that Jesus Christ did what the Father required of Him; that Jesus Christ executed (and will execute) justice; simultaneously expressed God's lovingkindness; and that Jesus walked humbly with His Father God. We can see it. We know it. Yet Witness Lee spurned it, in his teaching.

Witness Lee turned us away from Jesus. In a recent training I heard Ed Marks talk about how God the Father delighted in Jesus the Son. Ed supplied numerous NT quotes. But he didn't quote Psalm 18's "he [the Father] delighted in Me [Jesus the Son]" because Witness Lee had panned it as fallen human concept.

Witness Lee shut the door on Christ, and would not allow others to enter. What kind of a teaching, what kind of a ministry is this?
I have been studying the word seriously for approximately 40 years. It has been a humbling experience. You think you know something, and oops, your wisdom is foolishness and God's wisdom was sitting there all the time.

I consider WL's teaching to be jaw dropingly arrogant. He used to talk so much about how many years he had been in the word, he was 80+ at this time. I just could not understand how he had not had the same experiences of being humbled enough to not assume he knew better than the word of God. But time and time again you would hear from WL how only he had the truth, no other Christian on the Earth had anything worth reading or listening to. Very different from Peter who said we all had "like precious faith". But that was not enough, he also knew better than many, many writers of the Bible. Many Psalms didn't come up to his vision, James didn't, minor prophets didn't, Proverbs didn't, etc.

This is why I rarely come to this side of the forum. It is a settled matter for me.
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:05 PM   #115
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I learned long ago that LCers can never be convinced of anything. Remember I was once one myself, and was willing and ready to lay down my life for the cause.
Oh come on! You are an LCer and you are convinced. I am an LCer and I am convinced. I think we could easily get 10 or more who #I'm convinced.
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:09 PM   #116
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Secondly, I always remind myself that I am also writing for the unknown reader, the lurker. New forum members continually testify that they have been reading the forum, sometimes for years, before working up the courage to actually post. Current members do them a great service by the back-n-forth rehash of the same teachings they hear in the meetings. I say let the reader decide! This forum does not "poison" anyone, rather it gives the reader choices. It's like going away to college and learning all your classmates are atheists. You need to "know whom you believe in."

So I say present all your best arguments, and when challenged, dig some more. At that point I usually quit. Let them supposedly have the "last word." No one can convince them. I did not remain in the LC because LSM "won" every argument, rather until this forum developed, I never got to hear the "rest of the story," as Paul Harvey would say.
Great word Ohio.

A Little Brother - you'll find that the use of words like "combative" are being used very intentionally. I love what Ohio said, as it is so true... write for the Lurkers - contributors like Drake or Evangelical are only fooling themselves, their contribution to the forum are ironically the best testament against Witness Lee's church. A casual reader following this thread can read what is going on.

Even though I love seeing this light being shined (albeit unintentionally)... It still hurts my heart to see guys like Drake.
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:33 PM   #117
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So I say present all your best arguments, and when challenged, dig some more. At that point I usually quit. Let them supposedly have the "last word." No one can convince them. I did not remain in the LC because LSM "won" every argument, rather until this forum developed, I never got to hear the "rest of the story," as Paul Harvey would say.
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A Little Brother - you'll find that the use of words like "combative" are being used very intentionally. I love what Ohio said, as it is so true... write for the Lurkers - contributors like Drake or Evangelical are only fooling themselves, their contribution to the forum are ironically the best testament against Witness Lee's church. A casual reader following this thread can read what is going on.

Even though I love seeing this light being shined (albeit unintentionally)... It still hurts my heart to see guys like Drake.
Thanks Ohio and Leastofthese for your encouraging words. I will cetainly continue to voice out what I have to.

Leastofthese, it hurts my heart too. But it helps me slightly understand how Jesus felt when He saw His sheep scattered.
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Old 01-03-2018, 04:24 PM   #118
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Here is "what is good" - that Jesus Christ did what the Father required of Him; that Jesus Christ executed (and will execute) justice; simultaneously expressed God's lovingkindness; and that Jesus walked humbly with His Father God. We can see it. We know it. Yet Witness Lee spurned it, in his teaching.
...
Witness Lee shut the door on Christ, and would not allow others to enter. What kind of a teaching, what kind of a ministry is this?
As I found out during the discussion with Evangelical, they do not pay attention to Matthew 23. They have taken it lightly what Jesus referred to as weightier matters.

I am yet to find one example in the bible where God/prophets/apostles blame someone who is just, merciful and humble - the "human morals" so to speak.

The footnotes and messages have become their bible.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:57 PM   #119
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The footnotes and messages have become their bible.
Yes. That's right!

It took the quarantines to make that crystal clear to me, and to many others. The Blendeds constantly went back to Lee's teachings, and not the scripture. We in the GLA all knew that TC was much more scriptural than either Lee or the Blendeds.
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Old 01-04-2018, 05:19 AM   #120
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Haha, what else can I say?



Hurray, we finally come full circle. Micah 6:8 says obey the Lord to be saved and this is just the prophet's own concept because the footnote said so. Right?

Once again I failed to convince you. But I think I've said enough. Nice talking to you.
Based on your interpretation of Micah 6:8 you seem to believe in obedience /law-keeping for salvation rather than by faith alone:

Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
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Old 01-04-2018, 05:20 AM   #121
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As I found out during the discussion with Evangelical, they do not pay attention to Matthew 23. They have taken it lightly what Jesus referred to as weightier matters.

I am yet to find one example in the bible where God/prophets/apostles blame someone who is just, merciful and humble - the "human morals" so to speak.

The footnotes and messages have become their bible.
The matters Lee speaks of in the footnote are even weightier than the "weightier matters" Jesus refers to in Matt 23. Remember you're a Christian not a Jew. Next time you tithe you don't have to donate 10% of your cumin.
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:00 AM   #122
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Based on your interpretation of Micah 6:8 you seem to believe in obedience /law-keeping for salvation rather than by faith alone:

Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
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The matters Lee speaks of in the footnote are even weightier than the "weightier matters" Jesus refers to in Matt 23. Remember you're a Christian not a Jew. Next time you tithe you don't have to donate 10% of your cumin.
If you can't accept a straight forward message from God and even Jesus' words don't carry enough weight for you, I don't know whether you are capable to understand the more excellent way.

But I can test the water first. Let me start with this question...

Did Paul keep the law? Why or why not?
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:47 AM   #123
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As I found out during the discussion with Evangelical, they do not pay attention to Matthew 23. They have taken it lightly what Jesus referred to as weightier matters.

I am yet to find one example in the bible where God/prophets/apostles blame someone who is just, merciful and humble - the "human morals" so to speak.

The footnotes and messages have become their bible.
I agree with this. I have tried to get explanations to many of these issues. I realize I might be biased, maybe trying to justify my decision to leave, so I greatly appreciate the input of Evangelical and Drake. However, the explanations they have given me have only convinced me that I am not biased. There is no explanation or justification for many of the issues with WL, LSM, or the pillars of their sect.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:37 PM   #124
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Based on your interpretation of Micah 6:8 you seem to believe in obedience /law-keeping for salvation rather than by faith alone:

Gal 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Micah 6:8 isn't about Paul, nor is it about WL. It isn't the "NT elders enjoying grace". It isn't you nor I. It's Jesus.

The subject of the NT is Jesus Christ. The OT points to Jesus.

Who obeyed the Father? Who saw the Father always before Him? Paul? Witness Lee? Or do we say, rather, nobody? Do we really say that no one ever obeyed? Then what of Jesus Christ? It amazes me that we so assiduously look away from Christ. What happens to our gospel when we say no one can obey the Father?

At one point, you said that I promoted David as a "perfect type" of Christ, or some such (I go by memory). I never said that. David sinned; Christ did not. But even the sinner's prayer in Psalm 51, for example, has NT echoes. Jesus said, "Forgive US our trespasses". Us. Us. Us. I cannot overemphasize that the Son of Man included HIMSELF in the prayer (sorry for the all-caps). No He did not sin, but as the High Priest He prayed, "Us" and the Fathe heard His word. He took on flesh and blood, yet He sinned not. Yet His purity did not separate Him from sinners, but brought sinners near to God. Christ prayed, "forgive us" and the Father heard. Suddenly humanity had an advocate.

So when you speak of "keeping the law" and don't talk of Christ, it simply baffles me. How can we believe unless we see the Obedient, Spotless, Sinless Lamb of God? He obeyed the Father.

Micah's utterance isn't about you, sorry. It's about Christ.
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Old 01-04-2018, 05:57 PM   #125
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Micah 6:8 isn't about Paul, nor is it about WL. It isn't the "NT elders enjoying grace". It isn't you nor I. It's Jesus.

The subject of the NT is Jesus Christ. The OT points to Jesus.
...
So when you speak of "keeping the law" and don't talk of Christ, it simply baffles me. How can we believe unless we see the Obedient, Spotless, Sinless Lamb of God? He obeyed the Father.

Micah's utterance isn't about you, sorry. It's about Christ.
Aron, hope you don't mind my jumping in while you wait for Evangelical's reply.

I totally agree with you that Micah points us to Christ and Christ is the one who can perfectly fulfill God's requirments.

On the other hand, we often use this type of sentence structure: "It is not about...., it is about...". This could be just a figure of speech. But I found WL used this very extensively. When he mentioned one truth, he usually used this to deny another thing to elevate the truth he mentioned. Very often, it is not that the truth he mentioned was wrong, but he had simultaneously denied another piece of God's truth.

Mat 23:23 reminds me I should not lose sight of either the light or weightier matters.

I would rather say Micah's utterance isn't only about us, it's also about Christ.

(Hope I didn't sound to legalistic. )
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:19 PM   #126
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If you can't accept a straight forward message from God and even Jesus' words don't carry enough weight for you, I don't know whether you are capable to understand the more excellent way.

But I can test the water first. Let me start with this question...

Did Paul keep the law? Why or why not?
No, Paul did not keep the law. He rejected it as "dung" when he found Christ.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:21 PM   #127
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-1

>"Mat 23:23 reminds me I should not lose sight of either the light or weightier matters."

Alb,

A weightier matter of what?

Drake
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:22 PM   #128
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Micah 6:8 isn't about Paul, nor is it about WL. It isn't the "NT elders enjoying grace". It isn't you nor I. It's Jesus.

The subject of the NT is Jesus Christ. The OT points to Jesus.

Who obeyed the Father? Who saw the Father always before Him? Paul? Witness Lee? Or do we say, rather, nobody? Do we really say that no one ever obeyed? Then what of Jesus Christ? It amazes me that we so assiduously look away from Christ. What happens to our gospel when we say no one can obey the Father?

At one point, you said that I promoted David as a "perfect type" of Christ, or some such (I go by memory). I never said that. David sinned; Christ did not. But even the sinner's prayer in Psalm 51, for example, has NT echoes. Jesus said, "Forgive US our trespasses". Us. Us. Us. I cannot overemphasize that the Son of Man included HIMSELF in the prayer (sorry for the all-caps). No He did not sin, but as the High Priest He prayed, "Us" and the Fathe heard His word. He took on flesh and blood, yet He sinned not. Yet His purity did not separate Him from sinners, but brought sinners near to God. Christ prayed, "forgive us" and the Father heard. Suddenly humanity had an advocate.

So when you speak of "keeping the law" and don't talk of Christ, it simply baffles me. How can we believe unless we see the Obedient, Spotless, Sinless Lamb of God? He obeyed the Father.

Micah's utterance isn't about you, sorry. It's about Christ.
If we say "no one can obey the Father" this is normally understood to exclude Christ.

I don't fully agree that Jesus was including Himself in the Lord's prayer with "forgive us our sins". This implies that Jesus was a sinner like us.

To me He was demonstrating to his disciples how to pray. As a demonstration, he was not making a prayer to the Father at that time which would include Himself, but demonstrating what they should say.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:26 PM   #129
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-1

>"Mat 23:23 reminds me I should not lose sight of either the light or weightier matters."

Alb,

A weightier matter of what?

Drake
of whatever God wants us to listen to and obey.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:33 PM   #130
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Micah 6:8 isn't about Paul, nor is it about WL. It isn't the "NT elders enjoying grace". It isn't you nor I. It's Jesus.

The subject of the NT is Jesus Christ. The OT points to Jesus.

Who obeyed the Father? Who saw the Father always before Him? Paul? Witness Lee? Or do we say, rather, nobody? Do we really say that no one ever obeyed? Then what of Jesus Christ? It amazes me that we so assiduously look away from Christ. What happens to our gospel when we say no one can obey the Father?

At one point, you said that I promoted David as a "perfect type" of Christ, or some such (I go by memory). I never said that. David sinned; Christ did not. But even the sinner's prayer in Psalm 51, for example, has NT echoes. Jesus said, "Forgive US our trespasses". Us. Us. Us. I cannot overemphasize that the Son of Man included HIMSELF in the prayer (sorry for the all-caps). No He did not sin, but as the High Priest He prayed, "Us" and the Fathe heard His word. He took on flesh and blood, yet He sinned not. Yet His purity did not separate Him from sinners, but brought sinners near to God. Christ prayed, "forgive us" and the Father heard. Suddenly humanity had an advocate.

So when you speak of "keeping the law" and don't talk of Christ, it simply baffles me. How can we believe unless we see the Obedient, Spotless, Sinless Lamb of God? He obeyed the Father.

Micah's utterance isn't about you, sorry. It's about Christ.
In chapter five Micah reaches the high peak of his prophecy concerning Christ. Then in chapters six and seven, which we will cover in this message, he descends to a much lower plain. His prophecy in chapter five is great, but his prophecy in chapters six and seven is not great but is very much according to the human concept. (Life-Study of the Minor Prophets, Chapter 25, Section 1)

Whereas many Christians appreciate verses such as Habakkuk 3:17-19a, we need to be brought into another realm, the realm of Christ. These verses are not according to the divine revelation concerning Christ but according to the prophet's natural, human, and religious concept. (Life-Study of the Minor Prophets, Chapter 29, Section 2)


Everyone needs to be advised. Witness Lee's teaching concerning "all scripture is God breathed and profitable" includes his authority to decide which Prophets have the divine vision and which don't. With James he gets to decide when James is clear on the NT and when he isn't. With Psalms he decides which Psalms are the human concept, which are the divine concept and which are a little of both.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:37 PM   #131
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No, Paul did not keep the law. He rejected it as "dung" when he found Christ.
How could he then claim himself "as to the righteousness which is in the law, become blameless." (Phi 3:6) and "Neither against the law of the Jews nor against the temple nor against Caesar have I sinned in anything." (Acts 25:8)? How come he followed the ritual law in Acts 21:26?
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:39 PM   #132
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How could he then claim himself "as to the righteousness which is in the law, become blameless." (Phi 3:6) and "Neither against the law of the Jews nor against the temple nor against Caesar have I sinned in anything." (Acts 25:8)? How come he followed the ritual law in Acts 21:26?
His blamelessness in Phi 3:6 indicates a person who became morally righteous but did not have Christ.

That was before he knew better. Paul was on a transition between being a full Jew to half Jew eventually to someone who could rebuke Peter for being too Jewish, and finally creating Christianity as we know it today where we can eat pork and work on the Sabbath if we want to. That's the sort of freedom Christ died for.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:42 PM   #133
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His blamelessness in Phi 3:6 indicates a person who became morally righteous but did not have Christ.

That was before he knew better. Paul was on a transition between being a full Jew to half Jew eventually to someone who could rebuke Peter for being too Jewish, and finally creating Christianity as we know it today where we can eat pork and work on the Sabbath if we want to. That's the sort of freedom Christ died for.
When did Acts 25 happen?
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:45 PM   #134
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When did Acts 25 happen?
I forgot to add.. Paul pretended to be a Jew to win Jews over:

1 Cor 9:19

o the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:47 PM   #135
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I forgot to add.. Paul pretended to be a Jew to win Jews over:

1 Cor 9:19

o the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
You haven't answered my question about the time line. Are you saying Paul is a liar?
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:05 PM   #136
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Let's put it this way- so in the local church, the elders send you a letter and say we are one with the ministry of J Vernon McGee. All the books in the book room are gone except JVM books, in the meetings all material is from Through the Bible ministry, if you don't participate and openly show a desire not to participate, you are divisive etc. etc.

Seems to me that those meeting in such a way should give up using the title The Church in XYZ and call themselves the church that follows J Vernon Mc Gee.

For conscience sake, and for the sake of the truth, those who call themselves The Church in XYZ should not have any affiliation with LSM. I'm fine with saints in their own space following LSM, but in the church, it is an offense, it is a denomination factor which we should call sinful, in that it divides the saints according to preference.
Those meeting as the LC in my city should either disassociate with LSM, or change their title to the church of LSM. Each creature after its own kind! If those of the LC wish to produce others who will follow LSM then call the creature and the offspring LSM and not the LC!
As I say, for conscience sake and for truth's sake, this LSM thing needs to be cast out of the LC in my city so that I, as a Christian can come together with the other believers and meet without this divisive element.
Boxjobox,

JVM... good teacher. A good example for your good question. I brought your whole note forward to discuss so the points don't get lost,

Our working assumptions are the same as before? We live in the same city, town ,village Etc. We are born again believers. We all agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and it’s truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system.

Then, your new hypothetical, while enjoying the church life together in peace and harmony the elders suddenly clear the shelves in the book room of everything except JVM. This hypothetical scenario is a mirror image of what actually happened in your locality only it was LSM not JVM. Because you objected you were labeled divisive. If I have misunderstood feel free to clarify.

First, if you refused to go along by just not participating I would not have considered that as divisive. I wasn't there but divisiveness would need to include some action to divide others or create a faction, set up separate non-WL meetings, etc. Yet I'm not asking you to explain that.... just wanted to offer my point of view about the serious charge of divisiveness. I've seen and dealt with divisiveness firsthand and it is an ugly thing but sitting it out for conscience sake does not rise to the level of divisiveness.

Now to your scenario. Let's say you were one of those elders. A sizeable number of the members came to you and said that since we have JVM, they would also like Joel Olsteen, Rick Warren, and CS Lewis books. As the elder (for the sake of this discussion you have fellowshipped with all the elders and your decision represents theirs) what would you decide and what would you base your decision on?

Drake
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:11 PM   #137
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of whatever God wants us to listen to and obey.
That is not how the Lord Jesus used the term "weightier matters" in Matthew 23:23.

What do the weightier matters in Matthew 23:23 refer to?

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Old 01-04-2018, 07:17 PM   #138
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That is not how the Lord Jesus used the term "weightier matters" in Matthew 23:23.

What do the weightier matters in Matthew 23:23 refer to?

Drake
What should I say when you disagreed with my answer and then ask the same question again? So what is actually your idea on the weightier matters?
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:36 PM   #139
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What should I say when you disagreed with my answer and then ask the same question again? So what is actually your idea on the weightier matters?
The weightier matters in Matthew 23:23 are referring to weightier matters of the law.

Christ replaced the law. We have Christ now and He lives in us as the Spirit. We believers should not follow the law but Christ, for even the weightier matters of the law must give way to the Person of Christ.

Agree?

Drake
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:48 PM   #140
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The weightier matters in Matthew 23:23 are referring to weightier matters of the law.

Christ replaced the law. We have Christ now and He lives in us as the Spirit. We believers should not follow the law but Christ, for even the weightier matters of the law must give way to the Person of Christ.

Agree?

Drake
Why did Jesus said "But these you should have done and not neglected the others."
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:53 PM   #141
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Why did Jesus said "But these you should have done and not neglected the others."
Because the Pharisees, as Jews under the law, should have.

But now, Christ replaced the law. We have Christ now and He lives in us as the Spirit. We believers should not follow the law but Christ, for even the weightier matters of the law must give way to the Person of Christ.

Do you agree?

Drake
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:01 PM   #142
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Because the Pharisees, as Jews under the law, should have.

But now, Christ replaced the law. We have Christ now and He lives in us as the Spirit. We believers should not follow the law but Christ, for even the weightier matters of the law must give way to the Person of Christ.

Do you agree?

Drake
If Christ replaced the law, do the Pharisees still need to keep the law? Why didn't Jesus tell them to have Christ? Why did Jesus said they should not neglect the weightier matters "of the law"? Was Jesus misleading them?
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Old 01-04-2018, 08:36 PM   #143
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If Christ replaced the law, do the Pharisees still need to keep the law? Why didn't Jesus tell them to have Christ? Why did Jesus said they should not neglect the weightier matters "of the law"? Was Jesus misleading them?
Since Christ has replaced the law the Pharisees need to come to Christ. The law was a child conductor and no longer required as they could have Christ.

Jesus did tell them to have Christ when He said "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. John 5:39-40

As pertains to the law, the Pharisees should have kept both the small and weightier matters of the law. It was their child conductor and they were teachers of it. However, once Christ came they should have come to Him. Only He fulfilled the law, and kept it perfectly and it is by His perfect life living in us that we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law.

How about now alb? You agree?

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Old 01-04-2018, 09:58 PM   #144
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Since Christ has replaced the law the Pharisees need to come to Christ. The law was a child conductor and no longer required as they could have Christ.

Jesus did tell them to have Christ when He said "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. John 5:39-40

As pertains to the law, the Pharisees should have kept both the small and weightier matters of the law. It was their child conductor and they were teachers of it. However, once Christ came they should have come to Him. Only He fulfilled the law, and kept it perfectly and it is by His perfect life living in us that we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law.

How about now alb? You agree?

Drake
Was Jesus misleading the Pharisees or withholding the truth in Mat 23:23?

As you said, by His perfect life living in us, we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law. Doesn't it mean the law is kept already?

Don't get me wrong, keeping the law is not the condition of salvation. But it reflects whether you are truly living a life with Christ in you. Otherwise, you are just boasting empty words that you are in the Spirit.

Keeping the weightier matters of the law becomes the relatively lighter matter now that we know Chirst is our savior. But as Jesus mentioned, these (the lighter matters) you should have done and not neglected the others (the weightier matters).

We can actually combine Mat 23 and John 5 instead of treating them as contradiction or totally different things. You should have done the lighter matters of the law, do not neglect the weightier matters of the law, and most important of all, you should come to Jesus so that you may have life.

The role of law as the child conductor is gone. But does a grown up man throw away everything he learned in his childhood?

Ecc 7:18 It is better for you to take hold of the one without letting go of the other, for he who fears God will come out of it with them all.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:58 PM   #145
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Boxjobox,

JVM... good teacher. A good example for your good question. I brought your whole note forward to discuss so the points don't get lost,

Our working assumptions are the same as before? We live in the same city, town ,village Etc. We are born again believers. We all agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and itís truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system.

Then, your new hypothetical, while enjoying the church life together in peace and harmony the elders suddenly clear the shelves in the book room of everything except JVM. This hypothetical scenario is a mirror image of what actually happened in your locality only it was LSM not JVM. Because you objected you were labeled divisive. If I have misunderstood feel free to clarify.

First, if you refused to go along by just not participating I would not have considered that as divisive. I wasn't there but divisiveness would need to include some action to divide others or create a faction, set up separate non-WL meetings, etc. Yet I'm not asking you to explain that.... just wanted to offer my point of view about the serious charge of divisiveness. I've seen and dealt with divisiveness firsthand and it is an ugly thing but sitting it out for conscience sake does not rise to the level of divisiveness.

Now to your scenario. Let's say you were one of those elders. A sizeable number of the members came to you and said that since we have JVM, they would also like Joel Olsteen, Rick Warren, and CS Lewis books. As the elder (for the sake of this discussion you have fellowshipped with all the elders and your decision represents theirs) what would you decide and what would you base your decision on?

Drake
Drake, when LSM was declared the content of all things local, you would basically have to say that LSM became the clergy and all the saints the laity. Fellowship ended and indoctrination by the clergy (LSM) replaced it. Not to go along with this was to put oneself outside the LC.

This action, in effect, ended the meeting of the church and created a LSM meeting. For conscience and truth's sake, those who wanted to make all things LSM should have departed and gone off and formed their own denominatio.
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:06 AM   #146
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You haven't answered my question about the time line. Are you saying Paul is a liar?
I don't see how the time line is relevant? Paul says he was chosen before he was born.
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:10 AM   #147
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Was Jesus misleading the Pharisees or withholding the truth in Mat 23:23?

As you said, by His perfect life living in us, we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law. Doesn't it mean the law is kept already?

Don't get me wrong,keeping the law is not the condition of salvation. But it reflects whether you are truly living a life with Christ in you.Otherwise, you are just boasting empty words that you are in the Spirit.

Keeping the weightier matters of the law becomes the relatively lighter matter now that we know Chirst is our savior. But as Jesus mentioned, these (the lighter matters) you should have done and not neglected the others (the weightier matters).

We can actually combine Mat 23 and John 5 instead of treating them as contradiction or totally different things. You should have done the lighter matters of the law, do not neglect the weightier matters of the law, and most important of all, you should come to Jesus so that you may have life.

The role of law as the child conductor is gone. But does a grown up man throw away everything he learned in his childhood?

Ecc 7:18 It is better for you to take hold of the one without letting go of the other, for he who fears God will come out of it with them all.

There are some who see the law as a measure or test about a person's spirituality. This is not correct. After believing in Christ the law does not then become a test or standard by which we are judged. The only standard of judgement is faith in Christ:

John 3:10 "He who believes in Him is not judged;

The believer is no longer under the law (either for salvation or for testing their spirituality) -

Romans 6:14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.

How much of the law is a valid test? Suppose one person does not keep the sabbath but another does. Is the person who keeps the sabbath living more of a life in Christ than one who doesn't? According to you they would be.

The problem is if you think keeping the law is a sign of our life in Christ then you are obliged to keep the WHOLE law (you can't pick and choose which laws you want to follow) -

James 2:10 For whosoever shall have kept the whole law, and then offends in one point is made guilty of all.

To answer your rhetorical question "does a grown up man throw away everything he learned in his childhood?". The answer is yes according to Paul:

Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

To turn from the law to Christ is to reject the old law:

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:34 AM   #148
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I don't see how the time line is relevant? Paul says he was chosen before he was born.
Because you said Paul was in transition from a Jew to half Jew and so on. But Act 25 should be after most of his trips, and after the book of Galatians. He still claimed he was sinless according to the law at that time. Unless he was lying, he did keep the law.
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:46 AM   #149
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There are some who see the law as a measure or test about a person's spirituality. This is not correct. After believing in Christ the law does not then become a test or standard by which we are judged. The only standard of judgement is faith in Christ:

John 3:10 "He who believes in Him is not judged;

The believer is no longer under the law (either for salvation or for testing their spirituality) -

Romans 6:14 Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God's grace.

How much of the law is a valid test? Suppose one person does not keep the sabbath but another does. Is the person who keeps the sabbath living more of a life in Christ than one who doesn't? According to you they would be.

The problem is if you think keeping the law is a sign of our life in Christ then you are obliged to keep the WHOLE law (you can't pick and choose which laws you want to follow) -

James 2:10 For whosoever shall have kept the whole law, and then offends in one point is made guilty of all.

To answer your rhetorical question "does a grown up man throw away everything he learned in his childhood?". The answer is yes according to Paul:

Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

To turn from the law to Christ is to reject the old law:

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
I will hold my reply because I was discussing with Drake.

Anyway, you seem to have rejected Drake's idea that by Jesus perfect life living in us, we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:40 AM   #150
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Drake, when LSM was declared the content of all things local, you would basically have to say that LSM became the clergy and all the saints the laity. Fellowship ended and indoctrination by the clergy (LSM) replaced it. Not to go along with this was to put oneself outside the LC.

This action, in effect, ended the meeting of the church and created a LSM meeting. For conscience and truth's sake, those who wanted to make all things LSM should have departed and gone off and formed their own denominatio.
Great points.

LSM has created a far worse Nicolaitan Clergy-Laity System than the one they tried to abolish.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:43 AM   #151
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I forgot to add.. Paul pretended to be a Jew to win Jews over:

1 Cor 9:19

o the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
A deceitful person would read this as Paul being deceitful (i.e. pretended).

A considerate, empathetic person would read this as Paul being empathetic (i.e. understanding).

Since no verse is of its own interpretation please show us other NT verses that say an apostle or evangelist needs to be deceitful.

Thanks.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:47 AM   #152
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The weightier matters in Matthew 23:23 are referring to weightier matters of the law.

Christ replaced the law. We have Christ now and He lives in us as the Spirit. We believers should not follow the law but Christ, for even the weightier matters of the law must give way to the Person of Christ.

Agree?

Drake
The reason we don't follow the law but Christ is because the law is ineffective. The standard of the law is still a fair representation of God and we still need to come up to that standard. However, Jesus is the only way to meet that standard. Christ did not replace one jot or tittle of the law as far as the standard is concerned, he merely made a bridge between fallen, sinful man and a High and Holy God.

So no, I do not agree that Christ has replaced the standard referred to in Matthew.
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Old 01-05-2018, 04:50 AM   #153
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I don't see how the time line is relevant? Paul says he was chosen before he was born.
Just so I am following this discussion accurately.

You were asked -- "Was Paul following the Law?"

You said no.

You were asked about Acts where Paul says he has not broken the law.

And your response is to evade the question -- followed by saying that the time line of Paul being a Christian when he made this statement is not relevant to the question of whether or not Paul was following the law.

Did I get that correctly?
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:57 AM   #154
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Drake, when LSM was declared the content of all things local, you would basically have to say that LSM became the clergy and all the saints the laity. Fellowship ended and indoctrination by the clergy (LSM) replaced it. Not to go along with this was to put oneself outside the LC.

This action, in effect, ended the meeting of the church and created a LSM meeting. For conscience and truth's sake, those who wanted to make all things LSM should have departed and gone off and formed their own denominatio.
Boxjobox,

Using your JVM and my follow up examples, the consideration would have to be whether the content of those books support the working assumptions we already agreed with. They may be good bible teachers, or not, yet their ministries are not for the building up of the local churches as we both agreed to. Where will you find a ministry that is for that? If LSM is not for that then they are just another christian publisher and should not be regarded any differently than any other christian publisher.

LSM is not a pastor so could never hold a local position and we know that local churches are managed by elders. If LSM were a pastor the first thing LSM would teach those in the local assembly is that clergy laity is unscriptural and then they would no longer be the pastor. The second thing LSM would insist on is that elders be appointed to manage local affairs further undercutting its own staus as a pastor. And so on.

Rather, LSM is the service entity for the work of ministry which is extra local. The ministry is for the churches not the other way around. If the service that LSM provides is not the ministry for the building up of the local churches, something we both hold dearly, then where is that work of ministry to be found?

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:22 AM   #155
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

Alb>"As you said, by His perfect life living in us, we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law. Doesn't it mean the law is kept already?"

Christ kept the law. He was the only One who could and did fulfill it. We don't keep the law, rather we possess the life of the One who did. If we follow the Spirit within there will be an issue, a manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit without.

Alb, do you agree with that?

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:24 AM   #156
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Boxjobox,

Using your JVM and my follow up examples, the consideration would have to be whether the content of those books support the working assumptions we already agreed with. They may be good bible teachers, or not, yet their ministries are not for the building up of the local churches as we both agreed to. Where will you find a ministry that is for that? If LSM is not for that then they are just another christian publisher and should not be regarded any differently than any other christian publisher.

LSM is not a pastor so could never hold a local position and we know that local churches are managed by elders. If LSM were a pastor the first thing LSM would teach them is that clergy laity is unscriptural and then they would no longer be the pastor. The second thing LSM would insist on is that elders be appointed to manage local affairs further undercutting their own staus as a pastor. And so on.

Rather, LSM is the service entity for the work of ministry which is extra local. The ministry is for the churches not the other way around. If the service that LSM provides is not the ministry for the building up of the local churches, something we both hold dearly, then where is that work of ministry to be found?

Drake
Dear Drake,

Either you are being simply deceptive or you have no clue how LSM really works. LSm and their operatives came into the Midwest LC's 10-12 years ago and divided everyone of them. THEY ARE NOT FOR THE BUILDING UP OF LOCAL CHURCHES. That is purely a farce based on decades of actual behavior stemming from the very top of LSM. They care only for those loyal to them, and will readily backstab any brother who refuses to demonstrate visible and tangible loyalties to them.

Every local elder is under their domination, or they will be marked out and expelled. Do we need to remind you of the endless stories of these victims, or did you just refuse to hear their witness? The Blendeds at LSM are far worse "pastors" than the ones out there in Christianity.

The LSM is NOT for the LC's, that is just a bogus saying. In reality, the LC's only exist for LSM, and that's why they are so easily discarded when they no longer exist for your good.

The Midwest LC elders decided long ago that LSM was NOT FOR THE BUILDING UP of the churches. So they decided that you at LSM will be treated as any other publisher. One reason for this was how the Blendeds constantly undermined the Midwest leadership both publicly and privately. This went on for years. The Midwest leaders prayed and fellowshipped much together and decided not to promote any of your trainings, yet not prevent any from going. It was no different than if a bunch of saints went to a Billy Graham crusade, or a Joyce Meyer conference. That was never good enough for you. You had to take action. Divisive, disruptive, legal action.

This is why Apostle Paul said to "Beware of Dogs, beware of evil workers."
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:27 AM   #157
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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The reason we don't follow the law but Christ is because the law is ineffective. The standard of the law is still a fair representation of God and we still need to come up to that standard. However, Jesus is the only way to meet that standard. Christ did not replace one jot or tittle of the law as far as the standard is concerned, he merely made a bridge between fallen, sinful man and a High and Holy God.

So no, I do not agree that Christ has replaced the standard referred to in Matthew.
I agree with this as written.

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Old 01-05-2018, 06:39 AM   #158
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Therefore Brother Ohio.

Where is the work of ministry for the building up of the local churches?

Rather, I should ask you whether you believe that is relevant anymore.

Is it? If do, where is it?

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:51 AM   #159
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Dear Drake,

Either you are being simply deceptive or you have no clue how LSM really works. LSm and their operatives came into the Midwest LC's 10-12 years ago and divided everyone of them. THEY ARE NOT FOR THE BUILDING UP OF LOCAL CHURCHES. That is purely a farce based on decades of actual behavior stemming from the very top of LSM. They care only for those loyal to them, and will readily backstab any brother who refuses to demonstrate visible and tangible loyalties to them.

Every local elder is under their domination, or they will be marked out and expelled. Do we need to remind you of the endless stories of these victims, or did you just refuse to hear their witness? The Blendeds at LSM are far worse "pastors" than the ones out there in Christianity.

The LSM is NOT for the LC's, that is just a bogus saying. In reality, the LC's only exist for LSM, and that's why they are so easily discarded when they no longer exist for your good.

The Midwest LC elders decided long ago that LSM was NOT FOR THE BUILDING UP of the churches. So they decided that you at LSM will be treated as any other publisher. One reason for this was how the Blendeds constantly undermined the Midwest leadership both publicly and privately. This went on for years. The Midwest leaders prayed and fellowshipped much together and decided not to promote any of your trainings, yet not prevent any from going. It was no different than if a bunch of saints went to a Billy Graham crusade, or a Joyce Meyer conference. That was never good enough for you. You had to take action. Divisive, disruptive, legal action.

This is why Apostle Paul said to "Beware of Dogs, beware of evil workers."
I think it is a little more subtle than this. I think the LSM leaders would love it if the churches were built up, that WL's growth projections were even remotely on target, as long as all of these new ones were buying LSM materials and LSM was getting full credit for what is going on.

On the other hand they don't care if force feeding LSM down their throats drives saints out of the churches and causes division and chaos. It seems to me that selling product is the higher priority and built churches that don't buy LSM are worse than 0 because they will be a negative example to others.

So when they teach about "building" the use of LSM documents is a built in assumption even though the evidence is that using LSM documents is not beneficial to the building of the saints or the church.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:03 AM   #160
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Therefore Brother Ohio.

Where is the work of ministry for the building up of the local churches?

Rather, I should ask you whether you believe that is relevant anymore.

Is it? If do, where is it?

Drake
IT'S EVERYWHERE, DRAKE.

What do you think is happening when God's children gather together in His name, open up His word with prayer, speak the word with anointing, act on the hearing of faith?

The churches in His body are being built up!

Don't characterize the entire body of Christ by a bad minister in the news or the corrupt papal system. I never characterized the Recovery by some of the rotten things I saw happen among the saints in the LC's. That's not fair. But I can characterize LSM by the rotten actions of its employees, and especially its top leaders. These leaders are held to a higher standard.

Does it not trouble you when scores of ex-members and trails of victims leave the Recovery? They are not being built up! Their faith, hope, and love is not growing, rather fading away. So many have been deceived by unscrupulous workers at LSM.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:08 AM   #161
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Sorry Brother Ohio.

It's everywhere it too general. When you say " churches in His Body" are built up everywhere what specifically are you referring to?

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Old 01-05-2018, 07:14 AM   #162
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Alb>"As you said, by His perfect life living in us, we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law. Doesn't it mean the law is kept already?"

Christ kept the law. He was the only One who could and did fulfill it. We don't keep the law, rather we possess the life of the One who did. If we follow the Spirit within there will be an issue, a manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit without.

Alb, do you agree with that?

Drake
Actually you don't have to ask this question again, I already agreed the sentence I last quoted from you. And I also saw you agreed with ZNPaaneah that Christ did not replace one jot or tittle of the law (Hope I did not misunderstand what you meant).

What I want to further explore is about the "keeping the law" idea which you seem to reject. I agree that we do not keep the law in order to be righteous and it is not the condition of salvation. But if we can follow the Spirit and manifest the fruit of the Spirit as you said, do you agreed that we actually have kept the law?

So it is about the "purpose" of keeping the law. I don't know how much you know about the Jews' view of the law. While many Christians see the 613 laws as rules to follow, they see them as 613 opportunities to love God. So it's all about the heart. We as Christians have the privilege to know Christ, how much better we can be if we also have that similar heart to seek for every opportunity to love God instead of simply ignore the "old" law as a whole in the name of freedom.
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:43 AM   #163
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Sorry Brother Ohio.

It's everywhere it too general. When you say " churches in His Body" are built up everywhere what specifically are you referring to?

Drake
Am I the Head of the body? He is working all over the earth. Am I supposed to know all the specifics? Any churches I name, you will find fault, but no church in without fault, just read the New Testament. The building work in the churches in the greater body of Christ is not inferior to the building work in the LC's.

I was in the LC's for years, and I saw flaws and problems in all of them. So what? They exist everywhere. I am not here to critique any church, just the rotten teachings and practices of workers. Those who damage the children of God.

You love to play your little games. Just like Lee did. He made a ministry out of condemning everyone else, and then supposedly he alone was the consummate Minister of the Age, and his ministry alone was for the "building up." Yet your building is collapsing. You are no longer building with spiritual material. You need lawsuits and marketing gimmicks to build with. You condemn pastors, yet The Blendeds are far worse shepherds in your clergy-laity system. You condemn seminaries, yet your FTT's are the same, or worse. You are guilty of everything you condemn others for.
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:14 AM   #164
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Ohio,

This is a serious discussion. Stop dismissing my conversation as game playing. Stop flying off the handle. You are being disruptive. This is what I meant before by not engaging with you. I really want to discuss matters with you and I value your perspective but not this vitriol.

Do you agree with the working assumption that Boxjobox and I agreed to in this conversation?

Here it is. I posted it twice.

We live in the same city, town ,village Etc. We are born again believers. We all agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and itís truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system.

That is the working assumption we are using for this part of the conversation. "Everywhere" does not fit the working assumption. If you don't agree that is fine. I don't mind. Just say that you don't then so I know where you are coming from in the conversation.

Thanks
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Old 01-05-2018, 08:24 AM   #165
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alb>"What I want to further explore is about the "keeping the law" idea which you seem to reject. I agree that we do not keep the law in order to be righteous and it is not the condition of salvation. But if we can follow the Spirit and manifest the fruit of the Spirit as you said, do you agreed that we actually have kept the law? "

Alb,

Almost. I agree that by cooperating with the Lord in us, that His life lived out of us will issue in an expression of the Spirit that fulfills the righteous requirements of the law. An important "and" follows here... And when we fail to follow the Lord, when we sin, when we have shortcomings, it is His ever efficacious blood that cleanses us, clears our conscience, and restores our fellowship with Him that we may continue on our journey in His life.

I use the phrase "keeping the law" in refering to effort.... in the same way Paul chastised the Galatians who having begun with the Spirit were bewitched into an effort to keep the law... a work of the flesh.

Are we there on this one?

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:47 AM   #166
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Ohio,

This is a serious discussion. Stop dismissing my conversation as game playing. Stop flying off the handle. You are being disruptive. This is what I meant before by not engaging with you. I really want to discuss matters with you and I value your perspective but not this vitriol.

Do you agree with the working assumption that Boxjobox and I agreed to in this conversation?

Here it is. I posted it twice.

We live in the same city, town ,village Etc. We are born again believers. We all agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and itís truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system.

That is the working assumption we are using for this part of the conversation. "Everywhere" does not fit the working assumption. If you don't agree that is fine. I don't mind. Just say that you don't then so I know where you are coming from in the conversation.
Drake, no one is flying off the handle or being disruptive or vitriolic. I am only being candid with you, and apparently you can't handle this. Neither am I interfering with your conversation with Boxjobox. Whether you decide to engage my posts is your decision, but I do have the right to challenge your "working assumption" above.

You are proposing that your LC's alone "are born again believers, agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and itís truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system."

First of all Christians do not agree to any of this. They are false premises. No one claims that a city boundary is a church boundary. No one says all denominations are sinful.

Secondly, none of your LC's under LSM adhere to these false standards. You really don't teach the Bible, but rather Lee's teachings. None really places a city boundary around their church, and they allow LSM to be their clergy hierarchy over them instead of local elders. The forum has literally hundreds of examples to prove so.

But yes, you regularly condemn all genuine born-again believers and churches, whether they meet independently, or as denominations, or free group home churches, or any other gathering venue.
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:09 AM   #167
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Ohio,

Your posts are vitriolic and you do fly off the handle. You consistently level charges against me of playing games, being deceptive, and being insincere. Let's me be clear. I am not playing games, being deceptive, nor being insincere. I have full control of my thinking faculties and I believe what I write. I do not expect that we will agree, nor is it my intent to convince you otherwise. I have no problem with your passion, your being candid, or your strong opinion but I do have a problem when you step over the line in basically calling me a liar, a deceiver, or a dope. I am not thin skinned for pushing back on those things. We are brothers in the Lord and this is a public forum... how you say something is as important as what you say. Its on display.

I prefer not to put you on mute as I value your perspective. Nevertheless, unless you can show decent christian behavior in conversing with me then so be it. I had hoped we had a new beginning since a few weeks back but it appears not. I am truly saddened by that.

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:10 AM   #168
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Do you agree with the working assumption that Boxjobox and I agreed to in this conversation?

Here it is. I posted it twice.

We live in the same city, town ,village Etc. We are born again believers. We all agree that the church in our place is local meaning the boundary and unit is neither greater nor smaller than the city in which we live. We recognize and affirm that denominations are sinful. We teach the Bible and itís truths. We meet in mutuality, that is, each one has and not in a clergy laity system.
Thanks
Drake
I don't agree with the part in bold. I do agree that any meeting of people constrained by time and space must be local and would generally be located in a city, town, village, etc.

However, I think this concept has been taken too far to be meaningful.

If we take a medium sized city of 500,000 it is safe to assume on any given day there would be multiple meetings of believers and it is not safe to assume that a meeting of every believer in the city would be common, or would even take place. There is no reason based on that alone to say that anyone of them would not be part of the Body of Christ. Hence, there can be multiple meetings of the Body of Christ, the church, in any city at any time.

I do agree that these multiple meetings should all recognize the same authority, Jesus, as Lord. I see nothing that limits how many elders a city could have, only that they are all under the authority of Jesus.
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Old 01-05-2018, 10:45 AM   #169
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ZNP,

I believe the testimony of the Bible is very clear on this. Before the Lord, I could not compromise on this. This is test to the genuineness of a local church. Does it match the pattern in scripture? If not, it must be rejected. If an assembly compromises this then they do not stand on the ground of oneness of the believers and do not represent locally the oneness of the universal Body of Christ. Therefore, they are not a local church. A genuine local church has a stand. Laodicea may be large and spreadout and so there may be meetings from house to house, nevertheless, the Lord addresses the church (singular) in Laodicea. Laodicea is lukewarm but there is still one church in Laodicea. Division is sin, therefore denominations are also sin. I could never agree with that either. The scripture is straightforward on this.

I agree with this view. It's my view now too.

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 11:52 AM   #170
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Ohio,

Your posts are vitriolic and you do fly off the handle. You consistently level charges against me of playing games, being deceptive, and being insincere. Let's me be clear. I am not playing games, being deceptive, nor being insincere. I have full control of my thinking faculties and I believe what I write. I do not expect that we will agree, nor is it my intent to convince you otherwise. I have no problem with your passion, your being candid, or your strong opinion but I do have a problem when you step over the line in basically calling me a liar, a deceiver, or a dope. I am not thin skinned for pushing back on those things. We are brothers in the Lord and this is a public forum... how you say something is as important as what you say. Its on display.

I prefer not to put you on mute as I value your perspective. Nevertheless, unless you can show decent christian behavior in conversing with me then so be it. I had hoped we had a new beginning since a few weeks back but it appears not. I am truly saddened by that.

Drake
Dear Drake,

It goes both ways. I personally would rather converse with a brother who is blunt and direct, than one who appears a little dishonest or deceptive. Perhaps my posting style has been shaped by my experiences in the LC's. You apparently take it personally when challenged on the forum. Sorry about that. People have been hurt, and that always weighs on me.

After my years there, I would rather put the Lord and people first, rather than your ministry and its many "truths." The Lord Jesus was also brutally honest when confronted by the religious hypocrisy of the Jews, so you cannot define "decent christian behavior" by your own standards, picked up from years with LSM. Sorry again, but I have dealt with LSM's lawyering and wordsmithing way too long, and yet I have not resorted to name-calling.

In fact, many times over the years, other forum members have insulted me for being too kind to those who support LSM. Imagine that!
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:24 PM   #171
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If we say "no one can obey the Father" this is normally understood to exclude Christ. .
Suppose Peter gave a gospel message on Psalm 16 and said how it was vain, that nobody could please God. And you said, "What about the resurrection of Jesus from the dead" and Peter said, "I am excluding Christ".

Why would we exclude Christ?

What kind of a gospel message are we preaching, if we exclude Christ?

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I don't fully agree that Jesus was including Himself in the Lord's prayer with "forgive us our sins". This implies that Jesus was a sinner like us.

To me He was demonstrating to his disciples how to pray. As a demonstration, he was not making a prayer to the Father at that time which would include Himself, but demonstrating what they should say.
The High Priest offers for the sinners. He may indeed say, "Father forgive them" their offenses. But as a human being, who partook flesh and blood, who was touched with our weaknesses, the High Priest may in fact say, "Forgive us our trespasses" without loss of meaning, or power, or efficacy.

I know my response is personal, and idiosyncratic, but I see Lee's response as subjective as well. I apologize if I've been disrespectful. I just don't like a system in which only one person has a response and everyone else has to say, "Wow! what a revelation!" What kind of function is that if we all have to be "ministry cheerleaders" which occasionally includes deliberately turning away from Christ?

You want to exclude Christ. I don't. I want to see Christ. And he is right there, in scripture, in front of us. "My sheep hear My voice". Listen for His voice, He is calling to you.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:20 PM   #172
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ZNP,

I believe the testimony of the Bible is very clear on this. Before the Lord, I could not compromise on this. This is test to the genuineness of a local church. Does it match the pattern in scripture? If not, it must be rejected. If an assembly compromises this then they do not stand on the ground of oneness of the believers and do not represent locally the oneness of the universal Body of Christ. Therefore, they are not a local church. A genuine local church has a stand. Laodicea may be large and spreadout and so there may be meetings from house to house, nevertheless, the Lord addresses the church (singular) in Laodicea. Laodicea is lukewarm but there is still one church in Laodicea. Division is sin, therefore denominations are also sin. I could never agree with that either. The scripture is straightforward on this.

I agree with this view. It's my view now too.

Drake
Yeah I know. But when I ask you and Evangelical what requirements do you need to meet before you will accept a person as a brother or sister you are very general. My view is simple, If I meet with another saint that is a meeting. If we are meeting according to the criteria in Matt 18 then the Lord is in our midst, hence we are the Body. So when pushed on this Evangelical and maybe you say that the Lord's table distinguishes a church from "just a meeting".

So if there are 1,000 meetings of the Body of Christ in NYC, all of which are meeting in the name of Jesus and He is in their midst, which meeting is qualified to have the Lord's table and which meeting is not qualified? I have asked for that, no one has given me any answer.

Secondly, I was in Taipei, they had 23 halls. I met with two or three different halls. But there were a number that I never met with. Every hall had its own elders. True they had elders meetings run by Witness Lee in Hall 1, but I don't recognize his authority. I recognize the Lord Jesus. If the elders meet with the Lord Jesus and submit to his authority then I am good with that. I see no reason to deny the Lord who bought us and replace him with this wanna be super apostle.
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Old 01-05-2018, 02:35 PM   #173
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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alb>"What I want to further explore is about the "keeping the law" idea which you seem to reject. I agree that we do not keep the law in order to be righteous and it is not the condition of salvation. But if we can follow the Spirit and manifest the fruit of the Spirit as you said, do you agreed that we actually have kept the law? "

Alb,

Almost. I agree that by cooperating with the Lord in us, that His life lived out of us will issue in an expression of the Spirit that fulfills the righteous requirements of the law. An important "and" follows here... And when we fail to follow the Lord, when we sin, when we have shortcomings, it is His ever efficacious blood that cleanses us, clears our conscience, and restores our fellowship with Him that we may continue on our journey in His life.
Agree. I think it is important that we have the desire to follow God's command. We try, we may fail but we know God's sacred blood will cover us. And we then press on. It is totally different from saying the law is replaced and we don't try living out even the lightest matters.

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I use the phrase "keeping the law" in refering to effort.... in the same way Paul chastised the Galatians who having begun with the Spirit were bewitched into an effort to keep the law... a work of the flesh.

Are we there on this one?

Drake
Almost. It is more about the reason/heart in keeping the law than the effort. I think Paul chastised the Galatians because some people wanted to "make a good show in the flesh" (Gal 6:12) and they followed.

Paul himself labored hard for the gospel. Effort does not always equal work of flesh.
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:21 PM   #174
Drake
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Yeah I know. But when I ask you and Evangelical what requirements do you need to meet before you will accept a person as a brother or sister you are very general. My view is simple, If I meet with another saint that is a meeting. If we are meeting according to the criteria in Matt 18 then the Lord is in our midst, hence we are the Body. So when pushed on this Evangelical and maybe you say that the Lord's table distinguishes a church from "just a meeting".

So if there are 1,000 meetings of the Body of Christ in NYC, all of which are meeting in the name of Jesus and He is in their midst, which meeting is qualified to have the Lord's table and which meeting is not qualified? I have asked for that, no one has given me any answer.
Hi ZNP,

I don't mean to ignore your question on this or any other topic, I just may missed it as a question and saw it more as a commentary. Which is okay as I am not inclined to challenge every commentary. I'll try to answer your question.

My view is simple on this also. It does not matter if the brothers and sisters met physically in different places in a city. Some places are very large and spread out so it is necessary. In Laodicea or Smyrna it would have been very difficult for 1st century christians to physically gather in one place. (Unless they clustered close to each other on purpose). But is there any justification for christians in Laodicea tohave met separately other than the physical distance within the city? There is no biblical justification for it. Corinth too was a little spread out from the center of town to the dock area and could easily have had several meeting places from house to house. However, had any one of those house to house meetings met on any other basis than as members of the local church in Corinth then they would have been a division. But fi meeting on the proper ground I believe they broke bread from house to house. They did not really have a meeting hall at least in the churches of the Gentiles and maybe met outdoors, in or public places and buildings.

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:24 PM   #175
Drake
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

Ohio> "In fact, many times over the years, other forum members have insulted me for being too kind to those who support LSM. Imagine that!"

It is hard to imagine that Brother Ohio.

But let's keep going. We're good.

Drake
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:37 PM   #176
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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Because you said Paul was in transition from a Jew to half Jew and so on. But Act 25 should be after most of his trips, and after the book of Galatians. He still claimed he was sinless according to the law at that time. Unless he was lying, he did keep the law.
As I said before he kept it for a time, then eventually rejected all of it preferring to live as a Gentile (Galatians 2). Whether he lived as a Jew or a Gentile depended on whom he was trying to win for Christ. ZNP says that is deception but I see it as pragmatic. It is a form of pretense however. It would be equivalent to a Christian living as a Muslim to try to win muslims.
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:45 PM   #177
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Default Re: How many people have heard of LSM/Lee/Recovery

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I will hold my reply because I was discussing with Drake.

Anyway, you seem to have rejected Drake's idea that by Jesus perfect life living in us, we can live a life that is satisfying to God, a life that fulfills all the righteous requirements of the law.
I don't believe Drake meant that.

Only Christ can satisfy God, the law has nothing to do with it. " Only Christ can satisfy God." ~ "The Crucified Christ", W. Lee.

Read this verse carefully again:

Gal 3:2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard?


It is only by belief that we satisfy God. God shows His satisfaction with us by granting us His Spirit, while we are still "law-breakers" -

The law is not for the righteous (i.e. believers) but for unbelievers:
1 Tim 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous...

Believers are not under law but grace:

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under law, but under grace.

Drake seems to be referring to practical Christian perfection but so far in this discussion we have not been discussing about practical perfection but saving righteousness so I don't see that as relevant. Lee's footnote in Micah is clearly about salvation, that it is man's concept (Micah's) that keeping the law satisfies God (for saving righteousness).
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Old 01-05-2018, 03:48 PM   #178