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Old 11-20-2017, 03:49 PM   #501
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Default Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

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All that is factual.
If Titus was "condemned" for "promoting his own publication" then why shouldn't we condemn LSM for promoting their own publication?
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:16 PM   #502
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ZNP,

Sorry brother. According to your posts, their content and frequency, and the continual citing of decades old offenses.... you have not moved on, you have not forgiven those that offended you, and your approach of besmirching others for their failures, sins, and shortcomings of others is not "contending for the faith" by any stretch of the imagination.

And if you have examined yourself and found yourself to be without sins, failures, or shortcomings on what basis do you flip the Apostle's charge to examining others day in and day out?

Drake
Why is it that when you take the stand you do you are "being faithful to the vision the Lord has given you"?

Yet when others "are faithful to the vision the Lord has given them" you set yourself up to judge them that they aren't?

I will stand before the Lord. My stand will be on the Lord's blood. I am not examining others, I am examining the teachings, the doctrines, the damnable heresies.

Yes, it is true I continually cite sins that are decades old, but that is because they are decades old and still have not been dealt with.
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Old 11-20-2017, 04:35 PM   #503
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How is it a basis for excommunication that you are not seeking to "be faithful to the entire ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"?
Quarantine is not excommunication.... though it probably feels like it on the quarantined end.

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Old 11-20-2017, 05:16 PM   #504
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Quarantine is not excommunication.... though it probably feels like it on the quarantined end.
Quarantine? Bahahahaha. Like those churches can't go on with the Lord without LSM. Bahahahaha ... how utterly absurd ... and incompatible with the ground of oneness.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:20 PM   #505
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Quarantine is not excommunication.... though it probably feels like it on the quarantined end.

Drake
That's right. It's worse than excommunication.

It's more like a Mafia hit job -- whack the competition, anyone who stops paying "protection" money, i.e. buying books and sending young people to FTTA for programming.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:24 PM   #506
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Why is it that when you take the stand you do you are "being faithful to the vision the Lord has given you"?

Yet when others "are faithful to the vision the Lord has given them" you set yourself up to judge them that they aren't?

I will stand before the Lord. My stand will be on the Lord's blood. I am not examining others, I am examining the teachings, the doctrines, the damnable heresies.

Yes, it is true I continually cite sins that are decades old, but that is because they are decades old and still have not been dealt with.
Bible readers for centuries have been citing David's sins.

Better to be cited in this age than the next.

Should not we also learn from all the failures of Witness Lee and his sons?
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Old 11-21-2017, 05:49 AM   #507
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Bible readers for centuries have been citing David's sins.

Better to be cited in this age than the next.

Should not we also learn from all the failures of Witness Lee and his sons?
3 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.

They accuse me of having an agenda based on "The content, frequency and citing of decades old offenses". Perhaps they should look at the letter they wrote concerning the quarantine of Titus.
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Old 11-21-2017, 06:47 AM   #508
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The scribes were doctors of the law, who read and expounded the Scripture to the people. They were possessed of the key of knowledge, and occupied the seat of Moses. The Pharisees were a kind of separatists among the Jews, as their name indeed denotes. (http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/wil...harisees_2.htm)

He [Jesus] points out to the people the crimes with which they were chargeable, and the hypocrisy of their conduct. It is worthy of notice that He does not content Himself with speaking to the guilty parties alone. He unveils their character before the face of the world. They were deceiving the people by their pretences, and therefore the people must he warned against them. The same thing is true of all pretenders in religion. Truth and justice, and love for the souls of men, alike demand that such pretences should be made manifest. (http://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/wil...harisees_2.htm)

(Luke 11:52): "Woe unto you lawyers, for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye enter not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered." The first thing they do is take away the key of knowledge. So when you make many of these claims concerning the sins of these doctrines they ask for facts, evidence. If you provide it then they claim you have an agenda. Anyone in the LRC knew that you were not to talk about anything, to do so was indicative of a “poisoned mind”. This is how they take away the key of knowledge. This is why the internet is so important and this forum is important.

The answer to the question of MOTA is to be found in the fact, not that they withheld the word of God, but that they made the commandment of God of none effect by their tradition. This doctrine denies the fact that God is the only teacher and director of His Church. They added to His word their own instructions. They made the redemption of Christ of none effect.
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Old 11-21-2017, 07:29 AM   #509
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-2>”It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.”

ZNP,

That is not what I said and this is a good example of how you change what I said to fit a narrative of your own creation.

First, my comments about “imagination” were not about the letter .... what was I referring to when I made those comments ZNP?

Second, I never objected to anyone responding, asking questions, or putting forth of a defense of the letter..... exactly what was my objection?

Third, you quoted me wrong and you quoted me out of text... we were not discussing if it were a response from the Lord. Quote me correctly and what was the context?

You are a person that demands righteousness from others.... then how about accurately representing what I stated.

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Old 11-21-2017, 08:06 AM   #510
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Default Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

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3 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.

They accuse me of having an agenda based on "The content, frequency and citing of decades old offenses". Perhaps they should look at the letter they wrote concerning the quarantine of Titus.
During the quarantine, one day in the mail I anonymously received LSM's 28 book "Attack Pack" on Titus Chu. Pretty much the entire contents of afaithfulword dotcom. And LSM does not meddle in the "content, frequency and citing of decades old offenses?" Huh?

Here is the definition of hypocrisy:
If LSM does it, it is right.
If anyone else does it, it is wrong.
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:16 AM   #511
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-2>”It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.”

ZNP,

That is not what I said and this is a good example of how you change what I said to fit a narrative of your own creation.

First, my comments about “imagination” were not about the letter .... what was I referring to when I made those comments ZNP?

Second, I never objected to anyone responding, asking questions, or putting forth of a defense of the letter..... exactly what was my objection?

Third, you quoted me wrong and you quoted me out of text... we were not discussing if it were a response from the Lord. Quote me correctly and what was the context?

You are a person that demands righteousness from others.... then how about accurately representing what I stated.

Thanks,
Drake
Always accusing others of what you regularly do. Just sayin' ...
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Old 11-21-2017, 08:52 AM   #512
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-2>”It is interesting that this letter condemning Titus was made public by the BBs, yet if anyone responds, questions, or puts forth a defense then "it is beyond imagination" that this response is of the Lord.”

ZNP,

That is not what I said and this is a good example of how you change what I said to fit a narrative of your own creation.

First, my comments about “imagination” were not about the letter .... what was I referring to when I made those comments ZNP?
You did not give any details, nor did you point to a specific post. You mentioned the "frequency" which doesn't make sense since I have virtually stopped posting on this side of the forum except for this particular thread. You mentioned the content, again does not make sense since you can see in none of my posts do I even refer to anything that was a personal offense.

However, this response of yours popped up after I referenced the quarantine letter, which was the context of your response. Unless it was a non sequitur, in which case how is anyone to know what you are talking about?

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Second, I never objected to anyone responding, asking questions, or putting forth of a defense of the letter..... exactly what was my objection?
Don't know, why don't you clear that up for us.

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Third, you quoted me wrong and you quoted me out of text... we were not discussing if it were a response from the Lord. Quote me correctly and what was the context?

You are a person that demands righteousness from others.... then how about accurately representing what I stated.

Thanks,
Drake
I think it is clear that I did not understand your post.

This is the post in question:

"Sorry brother. According to your posts, their content and frequency, and the continual citing of decades old offenses.... you have not moved on, you have not forgiven those that offended you, and your approach of besmirching others for their failures, sins, and shortcomings of others is not "contending for the faith" by any stretch of the imagination.

And if you have examined yourself and found yourself to be without sins, failures, or shortcomings on what basis do you flip the Apostle's charge to examining others day in and day out? "


1. Content of my posts does not in any way refer to past offenses that I have. Therefore your conclusion does not makes sense.

2. Frequency -- I have virtually stopped posting on this side of the forum because I have moved on. This thread is different, it relates to contending for the faith. Again, this does not make any sense with your conclusion.

3. Yes, I have agreed that I do cite decades old offenses. Imagine the hypocrisy in complaining about this.
A. Letters requesting a meeting on this were ignored, including Fed Ex and registered mail.
B. phone calls were ignored.
C. When I do meet with Ed privately it is deemed inappropriate -- and they say "he doesn't want to deal with this now". So the plan is to ignore this long enough and then claim "that is decades old". The fact remains, it has not been dealt with.
D. Many complaints about Titus were also decades old. Pure hypocrisy.


I have already given the scriptural basis to examine others. Teachers are held to a higher standard. Jesus, set an example for us, and in that example he publicly castigated the Pharisees for similar sins.

Matthew 18 says if you are offended go privately to the the party (for 20 years several saints did this -- letters, phone calls, et.). If they refuse to hear take two or three with you -- I learned of this through the forum and so I am one of the "two or three" that approached Ed. If they still refuse to hear you (which they did and I document) tell it to the church.

So you have the authority to "tell it to the church" about Titus, and that is contending for the Faith, but if I "tell it to the church" it is beyond imagination that this is contending for the faith. The hypocrisy.
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Old 11-21-2017, 10:26 AM   #513
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-1

ZNP>”You did not give any details, nor did you point to a specific post....... However, this response of yours popped up after I referenced the quarantine letter, which was the context of your response. Unless it was a non sequitur, in which case how is anyone to know what you are talking about?”

The specific post was your post plainly quoted in my post #490.

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Old 11-21-2017, 10:51 AM   #514
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-1

ZNP>”You did not give any details, nor did you point to a specific post....... However, this response of yours popped up after I referenced the quarantine letter, which was the context of your response. Unless it was a non sequitur, in which case how is anyone to know what you are talking about?”

The specific post was your post plainly quoted in my post #490.

Drake
Post #490 -- the content does not reference any offense, on the contrary I say that there is no offense. When I say you did not give any details I am referring to the offenses you claim I have and that you can see in the content of my posts.

You reference the frequency -- how can a single post be a reference? Also, you are posting at a higher frequency than I am. What does this say about your motives?

You say I cite decades old sins -- this post did not cite any sins.

This is why I say you did not give any details or refer to any post that I can understand what you are talking about.
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Old 11-21-2017, 11:29 AM   #515
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-1

ZNP,

This conversation is getting wrapped around the axle.

For clarification ... when I used the word "imagination" what was the context and what was I referring to?

Thanks
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Old 11-21-2017, 12:20 PM   #516
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Bro awareness,

Brother Née did a really thorough explanation of that... I try to find the link...

Drake
Awareness,

Here you go.

Go to lsm.org and in the table on the left click on "Online Publications"

Then in the search string paste in this phrase:

Watchman Nee in Shanghai in January 1934, during the third Overcomer Conference.

The second hit is "What Are We?".... Brother Nee provides a good summary of highlights of leaders that Lord raised up. A more comprehensive list is likely found in the pages of Broadbent's "Pilgrim Church" or Miller's Church History.

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Old 11-21-2017, 01:06 PM   #517
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Default Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

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All that is factual.

It is a matter of the work. I love and respect Brother Titus and he has helped me personally and some of the things he ministered decades ago have stuck with me all these years.

Yet, there was something going on there that was not in coordination and fellowship as a co-worker with other co-workers. That never works out and it didn't then either. In the NT the work needed a lot of fellowship and oftentimes it just did not work out as the accounts of contention in the work clearly demonstrate. Titus was not opposed to Brother Lee, nor with the role of Brother Lee's ministry, rather..... there was a disagreement between Titus and the other brothers regarding the work and frankly a schism was festering that could have damaged all the churches. It had to be addressed and many attempts were made to do just that.

Drake
Where did Apostle Paul ever demand that the other Twelve coordinate with him?

When did Apostle Paul demand that the other Twelve fellowship with him or be quarantined?

In what way did Apostle Paul ever hinder the Twelve from writing their own epistles?

Your vague references to other instances in the N.T. have no basis whatsoever for what LSM has done over the years. Contrary to the views of every LCer, the way LSM so easily deceives its adherents really proves how little they actually know the scriptures.

Oh sure, they may know Lee's doctrines, but they don't know the Bible.
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Old 11-22-2017, 06:16 AM   #518
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Default The Bible Record of MOTA

Working definition of MOTA -- "The minister of the age is the person God raises up as the channel through whom the vision of the age is released and who takes the lead in carrying out the ministry of the age."

As this relates to Witness Lee and Watchman Nee LSM states:

“Through the labor of our senior brothers, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, we have received a spiritual inheritance of all of the crucial revelations in the Bible that have been opened to the Lord's seekers in the last twenty centuries. But that is not all. Brother Nee and Brother Lee stood on the shoulders of those who had gone before to see more.”

Least asked for “the Bible record of MOTA” [please note we use the Acronym MOTA in this thread to refer to “The Minister of the Age” as defined by LSM.

I feel there are many relevant verses to this doctrine and think it is a reasonable request. Therefore I thought this thread could be started. Please — any post that does not relate to the goal of presenting the Bible record of MOTA will be off topic.

I realize that this definition ignores certain actions and events that took place under the guise of MOTA. Therefore Bible verses concerning those events are relevant as well since history has shown us that the way to life is a narrow way and few there be that find it.
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Old 11-22-2017, 07:13 AM   #519
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ZNP>”If possible I hope we can stay away from Vision of the Age and Ministry of the Age since I think we can all agree there is a vision presented in the NT and there is a NT ministry. No one is questioning the basic fact of either of those two points. This thread is not the place to debate whether WL was or was not the MOTA, or if he had the "Vision of the Age" or even the "Ministry of the Age". This thread is simply the place to lay out the Biblical support and warnings about any and all "Minister's of the Age".

There is no minister of the age without its starting point the vision of the age. Not everyone in this forum agrees that there is such a thing as a vision or ministry of the age. And those that agree that there are such a things do not agree on what they are. For instance if someone has already dismissed that in Noah’s age he was following a vision or what the vision was then it is pointless to describe Noah as a minister of the age. Under those conditions we would all be asking ....Noah was a minister according to what?

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Old 11-22-2017, 07:20 AM   #520
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Working definition of MOTA -- "The minister of the age is the person God raises up as the channel through whom the vision of the age is released and who takes the lead in carrying out the ministry of the age."
Jesus was the one singular Christ. There cannot be, by definition, any more than one. Jesus was, is, and remains evermore the Christ of God, the Lord of lords and King of kings.

There's one Messiah, one singular Son of David, one "Holy One of Israel" (Mark 1:24; cf Isa 43:3). God has revealed this to us all, by raising His Son Jesus from the dead. The record is only too plain, and clear.

Any speculation about who's #2, while on this earth in the flesh of sin, is most deluded. Better to take the least place. Otherwise you risk being sent down in shame. ~Luke 14:8-11

I know that such MOTA speculations jive well with Chinese cultural expectations of group leadership and cohesion, but it has no place in the NT record. Casting back for OT scenes of Moses and Noah are vain. Jesus is the new Moses (Acts 3:22; 7:27); Jesus is the true Noah.

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For instance if someone has already dismissed that in Noah’s age he was following a vision or what the vision was then it is pointless to describe Noah as a minister of the age.
Noah was pointing to Jesus. Peter was pointing to Jesus. Inasmuch as I see others pointing to Jesus, I align. "As I imitate Christ, imitate me"; the implied corollary is that as one doesn't imitate Christ, then I've no burden to imitate them (1 Cor 11:1).
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Old 11-22-2017, 08:14 AM   #521
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There is no minister of the age without its starting point the vision of the age. Not everyone in this forum agrees that there is such a thing as a vision or ministry of the age. And those that agree that there are such a things do not agree on what they are. For instance if someone has already dismissed that in Noah’s age he was following a vision or what the vision was then it is pointless to describe Noah as a minister of the age. Under those conditions we would all be asking ....Noah was a minister according to what?
The Bible says that "without a vision the people perish". No one on this forum has disputed that. The NT says that "we have received this ministry". No one on this forum disputes that there is a NT ministry. No one disputes that there are many ministers, servants, slaves of the Lord.

The question that we have asked repeatedly is for a Biblical basis to say that there is "The Minister of The Age".

What is the Biblical basis to divide the NT Age of grace into a bunch of mini ages? It is one way to interpret the 7 churches of Asia, so perhaps you could infer 7 ages. The problem with that is that WL's teaching is that the last 4 churches all occur simultaneously. So then the last 2,000 years could be broken into 4 ages.

So then what we are asking for in this thread is a scriptural reference for "The Minister of the Age".

For example, I think it is fair to say that Moses was "The Minister of the Age". In that age they were releasing the truth concerning the law. However, it is also explicitly clear from Moses himself that he was a type of Christ. In the NT it is explicitly clear that Moses is nothing compared to Christ and that we are to hear Jesus, not Moses.

Likewise you can claim that Elijah was a lead prophet in the age of the prophets. The vision in that age was to establish righteousness in the Kingdom. Once again it is explicitly clear that compared to Jesus Christ Elijah is nothing and we should listen to Jesus, the beloved Son.
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Old 11-22-2017, 09:12 AM   #522
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Default The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the Age

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There is no minister of the age without its starting point the vision of the age. Not everyone in this forum agrees that there is such a thing as a vision or ministry of the age. And those that agree that there are such a things do not agree on what they are.
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The question that we have asked repeatedly is for a Biblical basis to say that there is "The Minister of The Age".

I think ZNP, and maybe some others, have made a good case that these three terms, Vision of the Age, Ministry of the Age and Minister of the Age are simply man-made constructs that are being misapplied to a mere human minister and to his personal vision and ministry.

If there is a Vision of Age then it must be related to the vision given to us in the Word of God, and most specifically the New Testament. The Ministry of the Age is the New Testament Ministry, which does not belong to any one particular person per se. The apostle Paul clearly says "We have this ministry" (2 Cor 4:1). It is THIS ministry that Paul refers to that should be considered The Ministry of The Age. The Minister of the Age is none other then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Author and perfecter of our faith, our Great High Priest.

All this being said, I think it is incumbent upon the followers to Witness Lee to show how the human constructs concerning a man and his personal vision and ministry should be put on an equal plane with the descriptions I have given above. The authors of the website article have provided a truckload of quotes of Nee and Lee as their main support for these human constructs. Very convenient. Very self-referential. Very unscholarly. When it comes to strong biblical support the brothers at afaithfulword.org are found wanting. They are found wanting because the man who taught them these human constructs was found wanting himself.

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Old 11-22-2017, 12:21 PM   #523
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Default Re: The Vision of the Age, the Ministry of the Age, and the Minister of the

Proverbs 29:18
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.

Romans 10: 4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Luke 1: 1-2
Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

II Corinthians 4: 1
Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

II Corinthians 4: 5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

*****
After the discussions in this thread, I accept the findings below.

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If there is a Vision of Age then it must be related to the vision given to us in the Word of God, and most specifically the New Testament. The Ministry of the Age is the New Testament Ministry, which does not belong to any one particular person per se. The apostle Paul clearly says "We have this ministry" (2 Cor 4:1). It is THIS ministry that Paul refers to that should be considered The Ministry of The Age. The Minister of the Age is none other then our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, the Author and perfecter of our faith, our Great High Priest.
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Old 11-22-2017, 03:45 PM   #524
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I think ZNP, and maybe some others, have made a good case that these three terms, Vision of the Age, Ministry of the Age and Minister of the Age are simply man-made constructs that are being misapplied to a mere human minister and to his personal vision and ministry.
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

The implication of having a doctrine that is simply a man made construct that is then used to set aside the Lord's word for oneness in the Body. It is with this tradition that the LRC sets aside the word of God.

The reason we are all one is because we all partake of one bread, but according to the LRC tradition that is not sufficient.
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Old 11-23-2017, 11:42 AM   #525
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When it comes to strong biblical support the brothers at afaithfulword.org are found wanting. They are found wanting because the man who taught them these human constructs was found wanting himself.
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No bro Untohim, he was found dead. And with Nee already gone, his death means the death of The Vision of the Age, The Ministry of the Age, and The Minister of the Age ... especially the Minister.

Those doctrines have now fallen down, like the house of cards that they were all along.

Some are slow to catch on. Let's pray for them.
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Old 12-28-2017, 07:37 AM   #526
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I’ve been reading the book, I’m linking here to learn more about Martin Luther:
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/mar...781101980019#/

The parallels between the Roman Catholic’s Religious system and its reaction to Luther’s genuine attempts to point out and seek changes to its unscriptural teachings and practices and LSM churches are remarkable!
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:13 AM   #527
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If there is a Vision of Age then it must be related to the vision given to us in the Word of God, and most specifically the New Testament.
-
This came up in another thread so posting here for further discussion as the more appropriate thread. I described in that note the vision imparted to me. What if anything about what I have written do folks disagree with?


“The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.

The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately. No, brother, the vision is not about a man, a fallible man, or even a servant to be commended though not a flawless one. It is a spiritual experience not unlike what you experienced in becoming regenerated. And yet, once it lays hold of you and you lay hold of it then it will govern you and it matters not what others say or do about this vision...... it cannot be denied.

I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves......”


Grace to you,
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:19 AM   #528
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This came up in another thread so posting here for further discussion as the more appropriate thread. I described in that note the vision imparted to me. What if anything about what I have written do folks disagree with?


“The vision is not about one man's viewpoint about himself, his understanding of the bible, or even a vision one might have received of the Ezekiel genre. The vision is not about any one servant , a viewpoint, or a doctrine about vision. It is not a movement or about a movement.

The vision we speak of is given by the Holy Spirit, is the heavenly vision of the New Testament, and it is an experience of the Holy Spirit imparting something of Himself into those He wills and those who are willing and able to receive it. It is a vision of the Body of Christ, building up that Body, the corporate Christ, and aligning our lives with His purpose to bring Him back and close this age. It is a vision of a Bride, a warrior Bride, those that love Him so, that will return with Him to overcome the forces of evil. It is a vision to give Him the ruling position in our lives as the stepping stone to His rule over the whole earth. In the simplest terms it is about cooperating with the Spirit on a daily basis both individually and corporately. No, brother, the vision is not about a man, a fallible man, or even a servant to be commended though not a flawless one. It is a spiritual experience not unlike what you experienced in becoming regenerated. And yet, once it lays hold of you and you lay hold of it then it will govern you and it matters not what others say or do about this vision...... it cannot be denied.

I am always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision not only for themselves but for those of us who have received it and regard it as a central part of our lives. Even more, I am humbled that the Lord should shed His mercy and to reveal to me the matter that is closest to His heart since I consider many in this forum would be much better proprietors should they possess it themselves......”

Grace to you,
Drake
Here you are equivocating.

You say "the vision is not about a man," yet immediately go on to say that you are "always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision."

No one on this form disparages the N.T. vision.

We only point out the failures of leaders at LSM who have damaged the children of God.

Sorry that you are not honest enough to distinguish these.
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Old 12-28-2017, 10:19 AM   #529
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Here you are equivocating.

You say "the vision is not about a man," yet immediately go on to say that you are "always amazed at the tenacity of those who would disparage and deny the NT vision."

No one on this form disparages the N.T. vision.

We only point out the failures of leaders at LSM who have damaged the children of God.

Sorry that you are not honest enough to distinguish these.
I do distinguish these... but apparently you don't. Here is what I mean.

You (collectively) disparage both vision and channel making no distinction. In the process of condemning everything related to Witness Lee, a man hated by most on this forum in person and deed, you also make no defense of the NT vision.... not so much as to even articulate what it is or confirm what about it you agree with when it is defined as I have done with my viewpoint. Brother Ohio, you do not speak for everyone in this forum when you say no one disparages the NT vision. Most will not even acknowledge it exists because of some apparent psychology that suggests to agree with the NT vision is to agree with Witness Lee... and what a tragedy that would be!

Your objections are about circumstantial matters, things temporal. Yet, the NT vision is not circumstantial or temporal. Ministers will come and go, ages will begin and end. Local churches will pass away.... for they are procedural. But the NT vision belongs to God, it is His desire, His purpose, His creation. It fulfills what He is after. It is an eternal matter. That is why Witness Lee detractors can carry on and on for years complaining about him, his son, and Blended brothers, and all the bad things that happened to them and others, ad nauseum, and yet never realizing that the thing that guides the members in the local churches by and large, is not a man, but a God-given vision. Some have said when Witness Lee died so did the NT vision..... what a concept! Did you defend the eternal integrity of the NT vision when that was stated or were you in the crowd that considers the best place for the NT vision is nailed in the coffin with Brother Lee? Where is your line in the sand on that matter? Do we stand on truth or do we permit profaning of our Lord's words by secularists to enjoin our narrative just because someone uses it as a point of attack on Brother Lee? Where is our line in the sand on that?

This is what I mean Brother Ohio. Ephraim is a cake un-turned. It is burnt on one side and uncooked on the other. Your argument about the NT vision was just that.... I asked you if you disagree with the description of the NT vision imparted to me and you immediately flip the cake over to the burnt side to burn it some more. I opened the door for you to agree or disagree with some or all of the NT vision I have received but the burnt side of the cake is preferable because heaven forbid if we find some points of agreement, some truth we can stand side by side on, lines we both agree to not cross... well, that would not fit the dominant narrative of this forum that if Witness Lee believed it must be bad for you and if you disagree with Witness Lee then any fallacious argument will do.

So, no, I am not equivocating, I am not being dishonest, and I am not delusional. those are all ad hominem attack tactics.

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Old 12-28-2017, 12:21 PM   #530
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I do distinguish these... but apparently you don't. Here is what I mean.

You (collectively) . In the process of condemning everything related to Witness Lee, a man hated by most on this forum in person and deed, you also make no defense of the NT vision.... not so much as to even articulate what it is or confirm what about it you agree with when it is defined as I have done with my viewpoint. Brother Ohio, you do not speak for everyone in this forum when you say no one disparages the NT vision. Most will not even acknowledge it exists because of some apparent psychology that suggests to agree with the NT vision is to agree with Witness Lee... and what a tragedy that would be!
Brother Drake, we have ex-LC-members on this forum who no longer esteem scripture as the word of God, so you can't classify everyone together. That's a bogus assertion you make about those on the forum not defending the N.T. vision. You claim "the vision" is unique to Lee, and that we "disparage both vision and channel making no distinction." I disagree with this on at least two counts.

Firstly, Lee's unique teachings do not constitute a "vision." At most he should be considered a minister or a teacher, regardless of the many claims he made for himself. His teachings go way outside the bounds of the scripture and Christian orthodoxy, despite your many protests. LC teachings are filled with "extras," which our Lord calls "leaven," and some of these teachings are heretical to the greater body of Christ.

What I learned from W. Lee that is Biblical, sound, and orthodox I will always appreciate. Because of all the leaven, however, I have been forced to examine everything against scripture, as Paul says "prove all things, hold on to the good." I was wonderfully saved thru a dear brother I worked with, who later wanted to return to the RCC. I have always lovingly appreciated him, but I refuse to be obligated to also return to the RCC. Likewise with W. Lee. I love him, appreciate all the good, but I do not "owe him my very existence," as Titus Chu once wrote to John Ingalls. I can say the same about TC -- I love him, appreciate all the good, but I do not owe him my very existence.

Secondly
, W. Lee elevated himself to the apostolic status which Paul once had. But Paul lived a life far beyond any reproach. He exercised his conscience to be right with God and man. Half of the N.T. confirms that this "channel of the vision" was established a pattern by God to all God's children for two millennia. Lee may have claimed the same for himself, but the facts of history prove otherwise. This forum is filled with the sins, failures, and unrighteousness of Lee and his sons, which he never once repented of. That is simply inexcusable. So many children of God have been hurt by LSM.

Due to his own behavior and teachings, we must now compare his ministry and work to that recorded in the Bible. We have to apply the many tests of scripture to the ministry of WL, just as the early churches had to apply these tests to the many ministers they had. 2 Corinthians, for example, enumerates many standards for these ministers. I have posted a few notable verses myself, such as LSM's practice of "peddling the word of God." The Lord commended Ephesus (Rev 2.2) for trying those who called themselves apostles and are not.
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Old 12-28-2017, 12:50 PM   #531
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Your objections are about circumstantial matters, things temporal. Yet, the NT vision is not circumstantial or temporal. Ministers will come and go, ages will begin and end. Local churches will pass away.... for they are procedural. But the NT vision belongs to God, it is His desire, His purpose, His creation. It fulfills what He is after. It is an eternal matter. That is why Witness Lee detractors can carry on and on for years complaining about him, his son, and Blended brothers, and all the bad things that happened to them and others, ad nauseum, and yet never realizing that the thing that guides the members in the local churches by and large, is not a man, but a God-given vision. Some have said when Witness Lee died so did the NT vision..... what a concept! Did you defend the eternal integrity of the NT vision when that was stated or were you in the crowd that considers the best place for the NT vision is nailed in the coffin with Brother Lee? Where is your line in the sand on that matter? Do we stand on truth or do we permit profaning of our Lord's words by secularists to enjoin our narrative just because someone uses it as a point of attack on Brother Lee? Where is our line in the sand on that?

This is what I mean Brother Ohio. Ephraim is a cake un-turned. It is burnt on one side and uncooked on the other. Your argument about the NT vision was just that.... I asked you if you disagree with the description of the NT vision imparted to me and you immediately flip the cake over to the burnt side to burn it some more. I opened the door for you to agree or disagree with some or all of the NT vision I have received but the burnt side of the cake is preferable because heaven forbid if we find some points of agreement, some truth we can stand side by side on, lines we both agree to not cross... well, that would not fit the dominant narrative of this forum that if Witness Lee believed it must be bad for you and if you disagree with Witness Lee then any fallacious argument will do.

So, no, I am not equivocating, I am not being dishonest, and I am not delusional. those are all ad hominem attack tactics.

Drake
Brother Drake,

To examine the facts of LC history are not "ad hominem attack tactics," as you suggest. If that was true, the entire Bible would not record the numerous failures of the men of God. Neither should any historian write of church history. You demand special exempt status for W. Lee, where he is entitled to critique all others, and no one can ever examine his failures, especially when the children of God were hurt.

What privileges you ascribe here for Witness Lee are only to be enjoyed by the Firstborn Son of God, our Creator, our Savior, and our Lord.

If man's sins were all "circumstantial matters, things temporal," then why would the Bible speak of them? Why are there historians? In I Cor. 10, Paul says these things were "written for our admonition." You complain that we are obsessed with temporal things, and we "never realize that the thing that guides the members in the local churches by and large, is not a man, but a God-given vision." This is just LSM double-speak. Out of one side of your mouth you claim the vision is of God, the same God who ministers to all the body of Christ. Yet out of the other side you claim only W. Lee has brought this vision to us. Apparently you are unable to see the contradiction and hypocrisy here.

Sorry, but all the claims by WL, which I once believed, remind me of this classic video clip:

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE
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Old 12-28-2017, 02:40 PM   #532
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Ohio>”Due to his own behavior and teachings, we must now compare his ministry and work to that recorded in the Bible. We have to apply the many tests of scripture to the ministry of WL, just as the early churches had to apply these tests to the many ministers they had.”


Brother Ohio, that sounded scholarly and scriptural and for a moment you had me. Then this mockery and derision...

Ohio>”Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWyCCJ6B2WE”

... confirming my assessment that you have no interest in comparing or examining Brother Lee’s teachings with scripture. Furthermore, your last post indicates something very different... it is all about sport, perhaps some kind of entertainment. In that regard, there is no distinction between those in this forum who have departed the faith and those who still claim it. Both behave the same and have found an alliance in each other against a common enemy... Brother Lee and anyone who refuses to accept the charges against him no matter how frivolous or unfounded.

I have never asked nor will ask for a pass for myself or Brother Lee. For you to suggest I have is simply another diversion. In fact, it is I that have pressed for a scriptural examination again and again on allegation after allegation. No takers. Rather, the arguments offered to my requests appear to pivot on irrelevant things.... like Wizard of Oz movie clips.

I understand the purpose of this forum is not seek out and establish truth, but I can only hope.

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Old 12-28-2017, 04:39 PM   #533
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http://lordsrecovery.us/uploads/3/4/...rychurches.pdf

EXCERPT

Global Authority of the Blended Co-workers

In conjunction with their concept that they are the true church on a proper ground of oneness, possessing and ministering the “up-to-date speaking” of the Lord, the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”, having received the mantle personally from Brother Lee. However, when the blending brothers took the unprecedented step in “the Lord’s recovery” to draw a line in the sand with the One Publication Proclamation, the Body of Christ reacted and a big turmoil ensued.

David Canfield
The Present Turmoil in the Churches, 2006

“I beseech you therefore, I, the prisoner in the Lord, to walk worthily of the
calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and meekness, with
longsuffering, bearing one another in love, being diligent to keep the oneness
of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace: One Body and one Spirit, even as
also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one
baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all
(Eph. 4:1-6).
These items alone are the factors of the genuine oneness.


The Practical Result of “Publication Work”: A Sectarian Oneness

“In contrast, by making such a great issue of their “one publication” theory and attempting to monopolize the ministry in the Lord’s recovery, the blending brothers are indeed seeking, whether intentionally or not, to make us a sect according to their ministry. How can we say otherwise if, in practice, that is the only ministry we are allowed to receive? Regardless of what we call it, it is still a sect.

Watchman Nee states:

What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they cease to be local and become sectarian….

“The worker to whom God has given fresh light upon His truth should encourage all who receive that truth to swell the ranks of the local church, not to range themselves around him. Otherwise, the churches will be made to serve the ministry, not the ministry the churches, and the “churches” established will be ministerial “churches,” not local ones.

The sphere of a church is not the sphere of any ministry, but the
sphere of the locality. Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the beginning of a new denomination.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee).

D. Canfield continues,

“Closely related to this matter is that of becoming a sect according to a particular teaching. Even the best teachings, including the “high-peak” doctrines, can make us a sect if we overly stress them. In the same book Watchman Nee warns us of this very thing:

“The whole thought [of the Greek word for “heresies” in Galatians 5:20; “sects” in the RcV] is not of the difference between truth and error, but of division based upon doctrine. My teaching may be right or it may be wrong, but if I make it a cause of division, then I am guilty of the “heresy” spoken of here….God forbids any division on doctrinal grounds…. If a group of believers split off from a local church in their zeal for certain teaching according to the Word of God, the new “church” they establish may have more scriptural teaching, but it could never be a scriptural church.

If we wish to maintain a scriptural position, then we must see to it that the churches we found in various places only represent localities, not doctrines. If our “church” is not separated from other children of God on the ground of locality alone, but stands for the propagation of some particular doctrine, then we are decidedly a sect, however true to the Word of God our teaching may be… (Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 113-114).

“And in another statement that seems almost prophetic in light of today’s situation, he says:

"Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one…. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not. Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes all who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God…. There are no other churches in Scripture but local churches! (The Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 92-93) END (Excerpts from The Present Turmoil among the Churches November 9, 2006)


Distinguishing Themselves

But, such vision only lasted until the leadership “sought to bring the churches under the ministry” of a special leader and to establish his ministry stations in several key localities.

This took place in 1974, and began a more secure uniting of the “believers of different places” under one ministry. Brother Lee chose a brother, Max Rapoport, to assist him in the coordination of the churches into one new man.

Then in 1986 a pledge was signed by elders and co-workers world-wide to follow this special leader: n
“…We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry, the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth….
Further, their message in print in 2005 about having one publication – composed only of
materials by Nee and Lee – delineates them, creating “a sphere which divides those who
attach themselves to it from those who do not.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, pp. 92-93)

The “local churches” have distinguished themselves from the rest of the Body of Christ and
have brought the churches under the ministry of a special leader to form their church life.
And, “Wherever ministry is made the occasion for the forming of a church, there you have the
beginning of a new denomination.” (The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee)
.
Again, Nee’s statement, “What havoc has been wrought in the Church because so many of
her ministers have sought to bring the churches under their ministry, rather than by their
ministry serve the churches. As soon as the churches are brought under any ministry, they
cease to be local and become sectarian…
(The Normal Christian Church Life, p138-139, Nee).

What havoc indeed! “And, the ‘churches’ established will be ministerial ‘churches,’ not local ones.” (pp138-139, Nee)

The “ministry materials” given in all the above references was to be a safeguard for the churches from turmoil and a guideline to keep them in the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. But the leadership has paid no attention to the safeguard, the guideline, or the warnings by Nee, and also by Lee, trampling underfoot such fellowship and, thus setting up the conditions for, and the causes of, turmoil and division.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:00 PM   #534
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"[I]Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local.
When T. Austin Sparks took this position Witness Lee said he was passing gas.

Thanks for your post bro Indiana. It's still current today, and on message.
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Old 12-28-2017, 05:13 PM   #535
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... confirming my assessment that you have no interest in comparing or examining Brother Lee’s teachings with scripture. Furthermore, your last post indicates something very different... it is all about sport, perhaps some kind of entertainment. In that regard, there is no distinction between those in this forum who have departed the faith and those who still claim it. Both behave the same and have found an alliance in each other against a common enemy... Brother Lee and anyone who refuses to accept the charges against him no matter how frivolous or unfounded.

I have never asked nor will ask for a pass for myself or Brother Lee. For you to suggest I have is simply another diversion. In fact, it is I that have pressed for a scriptural examination again and again on allegation after allegation. No takers. Rather, the arguments offered to my requests appear to pivot on irrelevant things.... like Wizard of Oz movie clips.

I understand the purpose of this forum is not seek out and establish truth, but I can only hope.

Drake
Your reaction here actually shows the opposite is true, and now you project your feelings on me. Sorry but it is you now playing games.

That video clip is a classic piece depicting those held in gripping fear suddenly realizing they were had by a con.

Sorry if you can't handle our personal experiences of being released out thru the Door of the sheep. (John 10.7)
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Old 12-28-2017, 09:17 PM   #536
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I described in that note the vision imparted to me. What if anything about what I have written do folks disagree with?
I came across the following web site today... an entire site talking about spiritual delusion. Seems to have some valid points. Probably worth spending time to further read...

http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-i...itual-delusion

Understanding of delusion among the Holy Fathers
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St. Ignatius believed that there are different kinds of delusion corresponding to passions, by which they are generated. Pride is an indication of any kind of delusion. "Terrible pride, like the pride of demons”, St. Ignatius wrote, “is the main feature of those who assimilated one or another delusion" (Ibid, pp. 233).
.
.
Another more extensive kind of delusion is connected to this one; St. Ignatius called it "conceit". A person in this state does not excite the imagination, but he focuses on the experience of a variety of "heart sensations" and erroneously attributes them to the action of grace. Dreaminess also operates in such a man, but "acts solely in the abstract field" (Ibid, pp. 232). The deluded person makes up "false spiritual state, close fellowship with Jesus, the inner conversation with Him, the mysterious revelation, voices of pleasure ..." (Ibid). In addition to striving for grace feelings, people exposed to this error have a high opinion of themselves and attribute to themselves the gifts of grace and spiritual virtues, " they seem to be intoxicated with themselves, with their state of self-delusion, seeing it as the state of grace" (Ibid, pp. 230) . On this basis, St. Ignatius believes that heresies, schisms, impiety, blasphemy originated from this "conceit" (Ibid, pp. 235). Interconnection of both types of delusion is that the mind and the heart, not purified from the passions and not renovated by the Holy Spirit, aspire to see God and to experience His presence in the soul, but, not being able to this, make up imaginary grace gifts for the purpose of enjoyment. Thus, such states "are the actions of subtle vanity and lust"

.
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Old 12-29-2017, 05:32 AM   #537
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Indiana>“the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,

This is false.

Yet, please provide a reference where the blended coworkersassert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,”

The reference to include the bold points above.

You know Indiana, it is my observation that few here lend an ounce of credibility to Watchman Nees teaching on the church....his stock goes up slightly if you use him to bash Witness Lee or fellow coworkers. Are you currently in a local church that follows his teachings concerning the church? Are you a theorist or a practitioner?

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Old 12-29-2017, 05:36 AM   #538
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Alb,

Totally irrelevant. I could apply the same quotes to this forum.

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Old 12-29-2017, 05:47 AM   #539
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Your reaction here actually shows the opposite is true, and now you project your feelings on me. Sorry but it is you now playing games.

That video clip is a classic piece depicting those held in gripping fear suddenly realizing they were had by a con.

Sorry if you can't handle our personal experiences of being released out thru the Door of the sheep. (John 10.7)
Brother Ohio,

If you also tell me you were captured by hordes of flying monkeys I can handle that. Nevertheless, I will harbor doubts about what really happened to you.

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Old 12-29-2017, 06:13 AM   #540
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Brother Ohio,

If you also tell me you were captured by hordes of flying monkeys I can handle that. Nevertheless, I will harbor doubts about what really happened to you.

Drake
So funny. Looks like you have recovered from your little Oz "setback."

When I was little, those monkeys were the scariest things I ever saw.

To this day I'm still traumatized when surrounded by flying monkeys.
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:17 AM   #541
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Alb,

Totally irrelevant. I could apply the same quotes to this forum.

Drake
On the contrary, I think it is relevant for every follower of Christ.

But I am not surprised by your response. Yeh, why would someone led by God's divine vision for 40 years fall into such simple trap of delusion?
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Old 12-29-2017, 06:18 AM   #542
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Indiana>“the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,

This is false.

Yet, please provide a reference where the blended coworkersassert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,”

The reference to include the bold points above.
Drake, you are so silly!

Ron Kangas graduated from Princeton. He knows better than to put that stuff in writing. Why do you think no one was ever permitted to record the meetings?
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:35 AM   #543
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So funny. Looks like you have recovered from your little Oz "setback."

When I was little, those monkeys were the scariest things I ever saw.

To this day I'm still traumatized when surrounded by flying monkeys.
For me, it was the singing munchkin trio that caused me to sit straight up in bed in a cold sweat at two in the morning. To this day, I shoo them away whenever they come around.

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Old 12-29-2017, 07:56 AM   #544
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On the contrary, I think it is relevant for every follower of Christ.

But I am not surprised by your response. Yeh, why would someone led by God's divine vision for 40 years fall into such simple trap of delusion?
Alb,

It is relevant for every follower of a Christ, just not relevant as part of an argument the way you were using it.

The delusion in this case would be accepting the Fallacy in Argumentum (aka the False Analogy) as being valid.

Your Ad Hominem argument requires no further explanation.

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Old 12-29-2017, 08:19 AM   #545
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Drake, you are so silly!

Ron Kangas graduated from Princeton. He knows better than to put that stuff in writing. Why do you think no one was ever permitted to record the meetings?
Brother Ohio,

Let me make sure I got this down accurately.

An assertion by the coworkers to establish and maintain their global authority over the local churches is not actually published in written or audio form .....anywhere?

How about you Indiana, is that your understanding also?

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Old 12-29-2017, 08:26 AM   #546
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Alb,

It is relevant for every follower of a Christ, just not relevant as part of an argument the way you were using it.

The delusion in this case would be accepting the Fallacy in Argumentum (aka the False Analogy) as being valid.

Your Ad Hominem argument requires no further explanation.

Drake
I spoke what I have to. It's up to you to hear or not.

Pardon my ignorance. I have to look up Ad Hominem from wikipedia. I don't think that's what I intended. But anyway, interesting definition, especially the last part...

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".[3]

Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is categorized as an informal fallacy,[4][5][6] more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.


However, in some cases, ad hominem attacks can be non-fallacious; i.e., if the attack on the character of the person is directly tackling the argument itself. For example, if the truth of the argument relies on the truthfulness of the person making the argument—rather than known facts—then pointing out that the person has previously lied is not a fallacious argument.
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Old 12-29-2017, 09:48 AM   #547
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Brother Ohio,

Let me make sure I got this down accurately.
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I spoke what I have to. It's up to you to hear or not.
a little brother,

LSMers like Drake are known for their wordsmithing and lawyering. It's all part of the game that is played to silence critics online, since we cannot be sued like normal publishers. They have almost a century long history of shooting the messenger, shaming and slandering whistleblowers who dare to speak their conscience. Their vacuum-sealed closed system allows nothing to penetrate their bubble.

Notice that he now wants me to research LSM's vast online inventory of messages, all polished and sanitized from recordings of their meetings, as if hundreds of eye-witness accounts are insufficient. There is not a brother in their program who does not know that LSM's senior Blendeds maintain a global authority over the local churches. Titus Chu and others tried to buck the system, and we saw what LSM is capable of. Made me sick.

LSM, like the Pharisees of old, make void the word of God to maintain their Lee-established traditions. For example, they expelled Titus Chu and others for publishing their own books, yet they filed lawsuits in many GLA cities for meeting halls and bank assets. One of those cities was Columbus, Ohio where I once migrated to help found that church. The Bible tells us to go publish the word of God, but no verse ever said that only LSM could do that. The Bible tells us specifically not to sue our brothers, yet LSM feels that verse is for everyone else and not for them. Pathetic!

Drake should be more concerned about violating God's word and stumbling His children, than some supposed "ad hominem" that hurt his feelings.
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Old 12-29-2017, 10:17 AM   #548
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I spoke what I have to. It's up to you to hear or not.

Pardon my ignorance. I have to look up Ad Hominem from wikipedia. I don't think that's what I intended. But anyway, interesting definition, especially the last part...

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argumentative strategy whereby an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.[2]

However, its original meaning was an argument "calculated to appeal to the person addressed more than to impartial reason".[3]

Fallacious ad hominem reasoning is categorized as an informal fallacy,[4][5][6] more precisely as a genetic fallacy, a subcategory of fallacies of irrelevance.


However, in some cases, ad hominem attacks can be non-fallacious; i.e., if the attack on the character of the person is directly tackling the argument itself. For example, if the truth of the argument relies on the truthfulness of the person making the argument—rather than known facts—then pointing out that the person has previously lied is not a fallacious argument.
Correct alb.

When you say that the person you are debating is delusional , that is an ad hominem attack having nothing to do with the argument itself. You are attacking the person, not the argument. Other ad hominem include but not limited to saying someone is dishonest, unintelligent, a liar, devious, bad motives, etc. all intended to dismiss the person rather than create a compelling argument.

You may think those things about someone, and you may even say them but they are fallacies in argument. When fallacies in argumentum are used it often indicates that the person advancing them has run out of convincing points in an argument. In other words, unable to convince others of their point of view they resort to attacking the motives, intelligence, truthfulness, or sanity of their opponents. Thinking their arguments were compelling yet still ineffective it must then be a problem with the person who remains unconvinced. Therein lies the fallacy. When you charged me with being delusional, though you may believe it, it was a fallacy in your argument and remains such until you can first prove I am delusional or was at some point in the past. My not accepting your argument is in and of itself insufficient to establish my being delusional.

Hope that helps.

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Old 12-29-2017, 10:36 AM   #549
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-2>”Drake should be more concerned about violating God's word and stumbling His children, than some supposed "ad hominem" that hurt his feelings.”

Brother Ohio

Don’t concern yourself about my feelings. I can assure they are not hurt.

However, I am very concerned about the brazen violation of Gods Word on display in this forum in attacking brothers and sisters in the Lords Recovery. I am also concerned about the stumbling of His children that also goes on here day by day. Case in point, someone accuses coworkers of making assertions to establish and maintain global control over the local churches and cannot provide a single instance of the so-called assertion!

Now, that is pathetic!

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Old 12-29-2017, 10:42 AM   #550
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I came across the following web site today... an entire site talking about spiritual delusion. Seems to have some valid points. Probably worth spending time to further read...
http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-i...itual-delusion
Interesting link bro *A little brother*. Thanks. I had lots of spiritual experiences in the local church. One that stands out is: The Vision. I eventually found out that it was a delusion.

The problem with those that are deluded is the same problem as with addicts ; only they can free their minds. All the talking from others won't do the job. Most that are deluded are too far out there for a lifeline to reach them.

We can only look at them with hope and prayers. Reason won't reach them. They didn't get there with reason, and reason won't pull them out.

Maybe love will.

But then, I also found out that even love in the local church is a delusion. Don't toe the line and the love vanishes in thin air. It's the kind of love found in all cults. Matthew 5:46.
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Old 12-29-2017, 11:39 AM   #551
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-2>”Drake should be more concerned about violating God's word and stumbling His children, than some supposed "ad hominem" that hurt his feelings.”

Brother Ohio

Don’t concern yourself about my feelings. I can assure they are not hurt.

However, I am very concerned about the brazen violation of Gods Word on display in this forum in attacking brothers and sisters in the Lords Recovery. I am also concerned about the stumbling of His children that also goes on here day by day. Case in point, someone accuses coworkers of making assertions to establish and maintain global control over the local churches and cannot provide a single instance of the so-called assertion!

Now, that is pathetic!

Drake
I'm not attacking any bro/sis in the Recovery. You are delusional just like a little brother said. Besides, are you asserting that Philip Lee was saved? Can you prove it? He molested multiple sisters and Daddy protected him. And you want us all to be silent?

Concerning the global takeover and control of LC's: Read the accounts. The Lord said 2 or 3 witnesses establish these words. We have hundreds of witnesses. Yesterday I posted John So's testimony. I have testified of LSM takeovers in Ohio and Canada. John Ingalls' account is another. Don Rutledge spoke of Lee's initial takeover in the Jan 1974 elders meetings with Lee and Lee's intimidation tactics. The Feb 1986 Loyalty Pledge where all were coerced to sign under threat of expulsion. The list goes on.

OK, maybe we should not call you delusional. But your posts sure are.
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Old 12-29-2017, 12:15 PM   #552
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Ohio,

Okay, you don’t have a reference. Therefore, it is what it is. Just another example of an accusation made without a shred of evidence to substantiate it.

Indiana>” the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,

But then, why would you want or expect proof of the accusation? Why would you care whether one was provided or not? Is it a standard in the forum that posters provide references to substantiate their accusations? No, it is not and no, you wouldn’t care. You have the results you say. and that validates the accusation. Circular reasoning.

Sorry brother. It does not validate the accusation. That does not even meet the minimum standard.

Perhaps Indiana has the reference. Let’s see.

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Old 12-29-2017, 02:01 PM   #553
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Ohio,

Okay, you don’t have a reference. Therefore, it is what it is. Just another example of an accusation made without a shred of evidence to substantiate it.
Dear Drake,

Do you have any idea how arrogant this sounds? Let me get this straight -- If it's not in one of your ministry books, then it can't be true?

Obviously you have so long been removed from the scriptures and from the reality, that the Bible itself has no more authority over you. Only Lee's books will do for you.

The Bible says accusations against leaders require witnesses. (I Tim. 5.19) This forum has hundreds of witnesses, but that means nothing to you because you must read it in an official Lee-and-Blended-sanctioned book, only available thru LSM's standing order.
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Old 12-29-2017, 02:02 PM   #554
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Sorry brother. It does not validate the accusation. That does not even meet the minimum standard.
Brother Drake - may I suggest you take the weekend and collect yourself? James 1:19
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Old 12-29-2017, 02:14 PM   #555
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Ohio>”If it's not in one of your ministry books, then it can't be true?”

Brother Ohio,

It is not about whether it is in a ministry book, it is whether it exists anywhere!

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Old 12-29-2017, 02:26 PM   #556
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Brother Drake - may I suggest you take the weekend and collect yourself? James 1:19
LofT,

Hmmmm...

So if I take the weekend off, collect myself, then after the weekend i look at this again, then I will see things differently, maybe the way you do..... then all will be well.

Nah... I think it is reasonable for someone to provide a reference for an accusation involving world domination.

Thanks and have a calm, collective, and safe weekend,
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Old 12-29-2017, 04:06 PM   #557
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LofT,

Hmmmm...

So if I take the weekend off, collect myself, then after the weekend i look at this again, then I will see things differently, maybe the way you do..... then all will be well.

Nah... I think it is reasonable for someone to provide a reference for an accusation involving world domination.

Thanks and have a calm, collective, and safe weekend,
Drake
I think it would serve you well
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Old 12-29-2017, 05:22 PM   #558
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Ohio>”If it's not in one of your ministry books, then it can't be true?”

Brother Ohio,

It is not about whether it is in a ministry book, it is whether it exists anywhere!

Drake
I understand completely!

Just call them all lepers, and you don't have to listen to these witnesses.
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Old 12-29-2017, 07:02 PM   #559
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We can only look at them with hope and prayers. Reason won't reach them. They didn't get there with reason, and reason won't pull them out.

Maybe love will.
Thanks Awareness for reminding me about love.

Have to confess that I sometimes use this forum to let off some steam. I used more direct and provocative words here than in meetings with brothers and sisters in the LC.

It's just so irritating seeing how fast fellow brothers and sisters switch to denial mode when discussing truth not from the LC Messages or problems in the LC. I just hope one day they can break out of their shell. For the meantime, I put the blame on the LC leadership.
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Old 12-30-2017, 03:16 AM   #560
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I came across the following web site today... an entire site talking about spiritual delusion. Seems to have some valid points. Probably worth spending time to further read...
http://oprelesti.ru/index.php/what-i...itual-delusion
The site even says which saints to pray to....

When recovering from spiritual delusion and mental illness, Orthodox Christians resort to the powers of the Lord Jesus Christ, His Saints and Angels: the Mother of God, Michael the Archangel, Saint Nicolas and other Saints, to the Grace of the Sacred Mysteries: Holy Communion, Confession and Unction. Also it is helpful to pray to the Saints that already helped the particular person in other situations. Also it is necessary to take the medications prescribed by the doctor. Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
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Old 12-30-2017, 03:49 AM   #561
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The site even says which saints to pray to....


When recovering from spiritual delusion and mental illness, Orthodox Christians resort to the powers of the Lord Jesus Christ, His Saints and Angels: the Mother of God, Michael the Archangel, Saint Nicolas and other Saints, to the Grace of the Sacred Mysteries: Holy Communion, Confession and Unction. Also it is helpful to pray to the Saints that already helped the particular person in other situations. Also it is necessary to take the medications prescribed by the doctor. Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
Do not quench the Spirit; Do not despise prophecies, But prove all things. Hold fast to what is good; Abstain from every kind of evil.

And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in full knowledge and all discernment, So that you may approve by testing the things which differ and are more excellent, that you may be pure and without offense unto the day of Christ, Being filled with the fruit of righteousness, which is through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
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Old 12-30-2017, 07:22 AM   #562
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The site even says which saints to pray to....


When recovering from spiritual delusion and mental illness, Orthodox Christians resort to the powers of the Lord Jesus Christ, His Saints and Angels: the Mother of God, Michael the Archangel, Saint Nicolas and other Saints, to the Grace of the Sacred Mysteries: Holy Communion, Confession and Unction. Also it is helpful to pray to the Saints that already helped the particular person in other situations. Also it is necessary to take the medications prescribed by the doctor. Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
Alb,

You don’t actually believe all this stuff, do you?

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Old 12-30-2017, 08:28 AM   #563
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Often a natural mental disease originate from the passion of pride and is also accompanied by spiritual delusion. An example is the ancient king Nebuchadnezzar who got mad because of his pride.
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You don’t actually believe all this stuff, do you?

Drake
Drake, do you believe what happened to Nebuchadnezzar in the book of Daniel, or not?

Seems to me that if Lee said that, then you would believe it and defend it.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:31 AM   #564
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Alb,

You don’t actually believe all this stuff, do you?

Drake
Do I have to in order to agree with what I quoted? That site contains contents from different sources. What Evangelical quoted is from a different section.

BTW, did you yourself look into it? Or just reading those quotes from me and Evangelical?
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Old 12-30-2017, 10:31 AM   #565
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Do I have to in order to agree with what I quoted? That site contains contents from different sources. What Evangelical quoted is from a different section.

BTW, did you yourself look into it? Or just reading those quotes from me and Evangelical?
Nope. You do not have to believe those things to quote the reference you did.

That is why I am asking. Do you believe what was written in that section?

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Old 12-30-2017, 01:47 PM   #566
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Do I have to in order to agree with what I quoted? That site contains contents from different sources. What Evangelical quoted is from a different section.

BTW, did you yourself look into it? Or just reading those quotes from me and Evangelical?
The irony is that the person you quoted about delusions believes that prayer to saints is a cure for delusion...which in itself is delusional. Prayer to saints is delusional because dead saints arent listening only demons.
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:36 PM   #567
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Nope. You do not have to believe those things to quote the reference you did.

That is why I am asking. Do you believe what was written in that section?
I do not believe in prayer to saints.

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The irony is that the person you quoted about delusions believes that prayer to saints is a cure for delusion...which in itself is delusional. Prayer to saints is delusional because dead saints arent listening only demons.
Does the person's belief in something we don't agree with prevent him/her from presenting other facts we can agree with?
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Old 12-30-2017, 04:59 PM   #568
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I do not believe in prayer to saints.



Does the person's belief in something we don't agree with prevent him/her from presenting other facts we can agree with?
It depends, it is relative. For example I disagree with sabbath keeping but that would not invalidate what a sabbath keeper says about Jesus.

In this case they believe in saint veneration and prayers to the dead which to me is a stronger delusion and superstition than the type they claim to be able to discern or prevent. This to me invalidates their ability to discern delusion given that saint worship is one of the biggest and clearest and most unbiblical delusions of all.

Prayer to saints is not merely a different belief that we can disagree with like whether or not we should keep sabbath. These people regularly commune with demons masquerading as dead saints, through prayer. They are basically clairvoyants.

By quoting this website you are trusting those who pray to demons and are deluded into thinking they are truly in touch with Mary and the saints when those demons respond with counterfeit signs and wonders, feelings,visions etc.
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Old 12-30-2017, 09:46 PM   #569
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By quoting this website you are trusting those who pray to demons and are deluded into thinking they are truly in touch with Mary and the saints when those demons respond with counterfeit signs and wonders, feelings,visions etc.
Didn't WL quote ideas from the RCC and Protestants? He must be trusting the evil religious Babylon, right?

Brother, think twice before deploying your shoot the messenger tactics.

Last but not least, didn't I indicate I just went into that web site and hadn't spent further time on the details? I don't quite understand why you are in such a haste to try deny delusion. Are you afraid that it might be true?

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Old 12-30-2017, 10:05 PM   #570
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Didn't WL quote from the RCC too? He must be trusting the evil religious Babylon, right?

Brother, think twice before deploying your shoot the messanger tactics.

Last but not least, didn't I indicate I just went into that web site and hadn't spent further time on the details?

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Proverbs 20:9-10 Who can say, I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin? Differing weights and differing measures, Both of them are an abomination to Jehovah.
I'm not aware of Lee quoting the RCC. He did acknowledge its positives and that there are genuine believers in it.
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Old 12-31-2017, 06:03 AM   #571
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Alb>” I don't quite understand why you are in such a haste to try deny delusion. Are you afraid that it might be true?”

Alb, I didn’t say it did not exist, I just said it was irrelevant to your argument. Evangelical did not say it did not exist, he just said the group you cited are under a stronger delusion themselves and that invalidates their ability to discern delusion in others.

Hopefully the strong evidence presented above will steer you away from your mistaken belief that we are denying that delusion exists.

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Old 12-31-2017, 07:19 AM   #572
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Didn't WL quote ideas from the RCC and Protestants? He must be trusting the evil religious Babylon, right?

Brother, think twice before deploying your shoot the messenger tactics.

Last but not least, didn't I indicate I just went into that web site and hadn't spent further time on the details? I don't quite understand why you are in such a haste to try deny delusion. Are you afraid that it might be true?

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I am not denying delusion Im disagreeing with what that site says about it.

If I came across such a website I would know they are not relible to speak of delusion for the aforementioned reasons..they clearly dont have the solution as they are all praying to dead ones.

A better resource is Nees the spiritual man.

Tip- the cause and solution for delusion is not sin and repentence but the inability to discern between the soul and spirit. Catholic and orthodox are repenting all the time even whipping themselves but they still pray to the dead.

When a person lives by the soul they get counterfeit spiritual experiences. This is what saint worship is.
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:07 AM   #573
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I am not denying delusion Im disagreeing with what that site says about it.

If I came across such a website I would know they are not relible to speak of delusion for the aforementioned reasons..they clearly dont have the solution as they are all praying to dead ones.

A better resource is Nees the spiritual man.

Tip- the cause and solution for delusion is not sin and repentence but the inability to discern between the soul and spirit. Catholic and orthodox are repenting all the time even whipping themselves but they still pray to the dead.

When a person lives by the soul they get counterfeit spiritual experiences. This is what saint worship is.
Thank you Evangelical. This is an excellent summary of the subject “delusion” and as was discussed here. Your due diligence sourcing reference material is commendable.

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Old 12-31-2017, 08:46 AM   #574
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I'm not aware of Lee quoting the RCC. He did acknowledge its positives and that there are genuine believers in it.
Does this justify your false allegation saying I am trusting those who pray to demons?
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:33 AM   #575
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Thank you Evangelical. This is an excellent summary of the subject “delusion” and as was discussed here. Your due diligence sourcing reference material is commendable.

Drake
You like Spititual Man? Let's see what Nee said...

Often Satan injects pride into the believer’s spirit, evoking in him an attitude of self-importance and of self-conceit. He causes him to esteem himself a very outstanding person, one who is indispensable in God’s work. Such a spirit constitutes one of the major reasons for the fall of believers: “pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall” (Prov. 16.18).

Seems quite applicable to the MOTA.
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:58 AM   #576
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I am not denying delusion Im disagreeing with what that site says about it.

If I came across such a website I would know they are not relible to speak of delusion for the aforementioned reasons..they clearly dont have the solution as they are all praying to dead ones.

A better resource is Nees the spiritual man.
OMG!!! You didn't say that! When I was in the LC they warned against reading that book. They claimed that some brothers had actually become demon possessed by reading it.

I read it anyway, and agree. It should come with a skull and crossbones on the cover.

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When a person lives by the soul they get counterfeit spiritual experiences.
That explains my LC experience. We were living by the soul. Lee was living by the soul, and eventually admitted it.
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Old 12-31-2017, 10:02 AM   #577
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You like Spititual Man? Let's see what Nee said...

Often Satan injects pride into the believer’s spirit, evoking in him an attitude of self-importance and of self-conceit. He causes him to esteem himself a very outstanding person, one who is indispensable in God’s work. Such a spirit constitutes one of the major reasons for the fall of believers: “pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall” (Prov. 16.18).

Seems quite applicable to the MOTA.
Yes it does. And good job sourcing that from Nee. Obviously Nee was describing himself. And it fits Lee too.
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Old 12-31-2017, 01:22 PM   #578
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You like Spititual Man? Let's see what Nee said...

Often Satan injects pride into the believer’s spirit, evoking in him an attitude of self-importance and of self-conceit. He causes him to esteem himself a very outstanding person, one who is indispensable in God’s work. Such a spirit constitutes one of the major reasons for the fall of believers: “pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall” (Prov. 16.18).

Seems quite applicable to the MOTA.
I do like the Spiritual Man. However, your post reminded me of the warning the author issued with it.

“The reader of this book should also be careful that he does not take the knowledge he has acquired from this book as a tool for criticizing others. It is easy for us to say that this person is soulish and that person is fleshly. But it is difficult to know if we ourselves are the same. The truth is given to set men free; it is not given to criticize others. I am afraid that some who are naturally inclined to show themselves off will not change after receiving the truth in this book, but will use the truth in this book to criticize their brothers and sisters. This book is meant to lead men on the right path; it is not meant to judge men. If we do this, it means we are no less soulish than the ones we criticize, only a bit more fleshly. This danger is the greatest, and we should guard against it carefully.”

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Old 12-31-2017, 02:23 PM   #579
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OMG!!! You didn't say that! When I was in the LC they warned against reading that book. They claimed that some brothers had actually become demon possessed by reading it.

I read it anyway, and agree. It should come with a skull and crossbones on the cover.


That explains my LC experience. We were living by the soul. Lee was living by the soul, and eventually admitted it.
Maybe the book triggered the demons already in them to react.
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Old 12-31-2017, 07:29 PM   #580
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Old 12-31-2017, 08:40 PM   #581
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I do like the Spiritual Man. However, your post reminded me of the warning the author issued with it.

“The reader of this book should also be careful that he does not take the knowledge he has acquired from this book as a tool for criticizing others. ...
Drake
Drake, great point. I also pulled in an extract of your post from the other thread because I think it is logical to consolidate my viewpoint here.

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...
The vision that governs me is not Brother Lee’s vision or any elder’s vision. It is the vision imparted to me by the Holy Spirit.
...
This vision carried me through turbulence in the church life not unlike that found in the Corinthian church. Outwardly, it a mess, nevertheless, the vision speaks it is still the church of God in Corinth. All in Asia forsook Paul yet Paul was faithful to the heavenly vision.
...
And just to calm any angst about what I mean, I condemn and have condemned the actions of Philip Lee and have stated that someone should have called the cops but he does not define what LSM is or their total contribution to the work of ministry. Still, even if a LSM were to publish Harry Potter books it does not affect the vision that guides me because I did not receive it from LSM.
...
I absolutely agree the criteria are for self reflection rather than for criticizing others. I did not make any conclusion that your vision is delusion (frankly though, I suspect it is) . No one else except yourself can discern whether it is true vision. But it doesn't mean you cannot use some external references to help.

I offered the web site link as kind of checklist for self-assessment applicable to all believers who think they have received a vision from God. From your response probably you don't think it is necessary. So for the time being, let's say your vision is true.

I like your analogy of the Corinthian church. How do you see your position in the LC when comparing with the Corinthian church? Are you one of the members in the church who tolerated or even covered up the unrighteousness or Paul who directly pointed out what was wrong?

What did Jesus do when he saw the Holy Temple became a den of robbers? Did He say it is still God's Temple and forgive them 70x7?

When you say you condemned the actions of Philip Lee, did you step up to fellowship with Lee or other elders? If yes, what was the outcome?

I asked you months ago when you first shared your vision in this forum. Now I ask again. How much closer is the LC now to the vision you received 40 years ago?

Jesus told us long ago where true worship should be in. But we keep building up new temples as if they were something worthy to be kept at all cost. History told us God destroyed the first and second temple, no matter how grand or precious they were.

Back to the vision/delusion topic, I believe the greater the vision one receives, the greater caution one should take. The fine line between faith and pride can be crossed so easily especially for people with leadership position in the church. Even Paul can sometimes sound proud in his letters. I am not saying he was, but not anybody can be Paul.

Fortunately I am just a little brother. I don't have the grand vision to change the nations or the church. I just speak truthfully what I believe. If incidentally, it can turn one person slightly closer to God, it would already be a great achievement for me. Could I be deluded as well? Definitely! I have to check from time to time.
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Old 01-01-2018, 05:22 AM   #582
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Maybe the book triggered the demons already in them to react.
Quite possible bro Evangelical. I read it and didn't get any demon. Still the elders frowned upon me reading it.

You can thank Jessie Penn-Lewis for the book ; the Jezebel that killed the Welsh Revival. She taught that born again believers can be possessed by demons. She thought at least some of the phenomena of the Welsh Revival was the work of Satan.

But after learning what she did to Evan Roberts I wondered if she herself had one, or maybe seven like Mary of Magdala..

And then, after learning of Nee's sexual promiscuity, I wonder if he had one.

Demons here, demons there, demons everywhere. You can't even be a whole person, of flesh, soul, and spirit, without being possessed by demons. And I thought Jesus had power over them, and protected his followers from them.

I guess at the time of reading the book my faith in Jesus kept me from becoming possessed ... maybe my ignorance protected me.

Either that, or the demons had no interest in me. I am a difficult fellow. As you surely know by now. So I'm no stranger to rejection. I feel hurt that the demons didn't want me. What's wrong with me?

Then again, what do I know about demons? Satan never wrote a book. I guess the Satanic Bible came close. I read that too, before the LC, and wrote and did an oral speech on it in college. Maybe that inoculated me from the demons in The Spiritual Man.

What protected you bro Evangelical? Question. If you don't believe in Satan does that make you an atheist?
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:41 AM   #583
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-1
Bro awareness,

If it was to be avoided under any and all circumstances then the 3 volume work would have been excluded from the collected works. All three volumes are there.

However, similar to cautions about using the book, the Normal Christian Church Life, as a manual so also did the Spiritual Man come with its own precautions. The issue is not with the book or its content, it is rather our own inclinations... in this case, introspection. It is possible to become too occupied self-examining how you match up to the descriptions in the book. In reality, we will eventually read things and teachings from the Bible that extend well beyond our experience. That is the precaution, you read it, start gazing at yourself, and lose sight of Christ, the One and only One, who enables us to overcome and become an overcomer well pleasing to Him.

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Old 01-02-2018, 02:31 PM   #584
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And I thank him for it. Or thank my lack of introspection. Maybe both kept me from catching a demon.

Good point(s) bro Drake. Thanks.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:26 PM   #585
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[COLOR="black[/COLOR]
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Indiana>“the blended co-workers (Brother We) assert that they are the global authority over “the local churches"......

This is false.]

Yet, please provide a reference where the blended coworkersassert that they are the global authority over “the local churches”,”

The reference to include the bold points above.

You know Indiana, it is my observation that few here lend an ounce of credibility to Watchman Nees teaching on the church....his stock goes up slightly if you use him to bash Witness Lee or fellow coworkers. Are you currently in a local church that follows his teachings concerning the church? Are you a theorist or a
practitioner?

Drake
Hello brother Drake.

Thank you for pointing out my error. I hadn't considered the extended meaning, the more inclusive aspect of the term "Brother We".

You actually help me to know the truth you speak of, that the "Brother We" reference made by a blending brother was actually referring to all the saints, in part. I can confirm that aspect of their meaning of "we", because I saw in my last video training Ron Kangas did share in an intimate ending to S of S fellowship, that "Brother Lee" is no longer with us, now it is up to the Shulamite, all the saints, the little ones, pursuing the Lord together (we).

Sounds very good to me and good to see Ron blended in the Body.

He was as soft and humble and pleasant as could be for those precious minutes of his sharing in the Son with all the little members, including himself as one of them.

In that rather moving scene there was no one lifted up but the One, the Lord Jesus, together with members of His Body.

HOWEVER, soon enough leaders "Brother We" would be back into movement mode according to the "vision of the age", as the collective "minister of the age" as global authorities, uplifting "Brother Lee" and "Brother Nee", in "the ministry of the age" - producing, to be sure, ministry churches of the age with those who survived the purge, and the cookie cutter.leadership of the age.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:56 PM   #586
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Hello brother Drake. Thank you for pointing out my error.

You actually help me to know the truth you speak of, that the "Brother We" reference by a blending brother was actually referring to all the saints. I can confirm that aspect of their meaning of "we", because I saw in my last video training Ron Kangas did share in an intimate ending to S of S fellowship, that "Brother Lee" is no longer with us, now it is up to the Shulamite, all the saints, the little ones, pursuing the Lord together (we). Sounds very good to me.

Ron Kangas was as soft and humble and pleasant as could be for those precious minutes of his sharing in the Son with all the little members, including himself as one of them, and all the leaders of the churches. In that rather moving scene there was no one lifted up but the One, the Lord Jesus, with members of His Body. But that was Brother Ron talking (theoretically, as a theorist).

Soon "Brother We" would be back into their movement according to the "vision of the age", as the collective "minister of the age" as global authorities, uplifting "Brother Lee" and "Brother Nee", in "the ministry of the age" - producing, to be sure, ministry churches of the ages of those surviving the purge and the cookie cutter.
Bro Indiana: I can't tell if you are being sarcastic, condescending, or genuine.
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Old Today, 12:33 PM   #587
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http://youtu.be/BKv4n_0ond0

It has been 10 years to the day, January 18, 2018, since Ron Kangas exercised his GLOBAL AUTHORITY at an international elders conference, speaking against several people (former leaders, internet contributors, ME BY NAME, current "independent" workers), thinking that speaking covertly in a faraway place would be safe place for him. A LOCAL CHURCH BROTHER, however, had this message (in the link above) on his server and notified me. I became aware in THIS WAY, (not by RON contacting me), and I LET HIM KNOW several times I AM OPEN TO HEAR HIS SPECIFIC COMPLAINTS AGAINST ANYTHING I have written beginning with IN THE WAKE OF THE NEW WAY, and including my book refuting Ron's slanted and disingenuous book on former prominent elder, John Ingalls.

If anyone listening in today is supportive of LSM, I am also, but not when they lie, hide details, displace blame, cover over sin and anything and everything else detrimental to the name of Lee, Nee, or their handsome yearly salary of $80 to $100,000. ("Don't think that it is not a part of it"), says Don Hardy (2001), who was a former elder in Los Angeles and elsewhere for many years.

I have been speaking the truth regarding division since 2001, and LSM does nothing, AND CAN DO NOTHING, intelligently, or formally, to discount me.

RON KANGAS WHO IS HEAVILY ASSOCIATED WITH LSM, POSTURES HIMSELF AS A PURVEYOR OF TRUTH, but HAS LIED ABOUT ME IN PUBLIC AT AN INTERNATIONAL LEADERS CONFERENCE and elsewhere, AND WILL NOT REPENT AND MAKE THINGS RIGHT BEFORE GOD and Man in the Body of Christ!


“Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that you may live
and possess the land which the LORD your God is giving you.”
(Deut, 16:18-20)


Witness Lee

"We have to know that today in the church we don’t exercise autocracy, a dictatorship; or democracy, according to people’s opinion; but we like to honor God’s authority as our government, and this is what we call theocracy, Gods government.

"Firstly, you must have the judges in order to keep God’s justice. The divine government pays attention firstly to justice. Even today, any government on this earth that does not practice justice, that government will sooner or later be over, right? A strong government must be one that is built upon justice. Everything must be just. Everything must be fair. Everything must be right. This is justice." (LSM radio transcription)


Three LSM books examined

www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us
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