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Old 01-03-2018, 07:03 PM   #1
heda lexa
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Default Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:54 PM   #2
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Default Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.
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Old 01-04-2018, 03:51 AM   #3
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Default Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by heda lexa View Post
Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children...
The thing to remember about Paul is that he wrote to the age. "Slaves obey your masters" was relevant to the prevailing social order. Paul was saying, not to fight the existing societal arrangements in the individual quest for spiritual freedom.

I think it's clear that women's roles in society have changed a lot in the past 2,000 years. At least, it's clear to most people.

I've asked 10 times on this forum: why did Watchman Nee have works by Madame Jean Guyon and Jessie Penn-Lewis among his 'spiritual classics' and yet women can't teach in the current LSM/lc? "Spiritual Man" shamelessly copied JPL, yet 100 years later women should be silent in church, because "Paul said so"?

It turns out women were merely props, tools to be exploited & abandoned in the quest for power. Ruth Lee, Peace Wang, Dora Yu - their time came and went. Once supreme mastership was attained, they had to (re)learn their place.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:24 AM   #4
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Default Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:22 AM   #5
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Default Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

-1 "Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs."

You don't think that 5,000 years of fallen human culture haven't imprinted themselves upon LSM/lc interpretation & practices? Which verses are (selectively) waved, and which are dismissed as fallen?

Oh, I forgot - China was 'virgin soil', unsullied. WL told us so. Only heavenly culture. And he should know, if anyone, since he was the apostle of the age.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:29 AM   #6
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Default Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.
I find your comment a little racist. It must be because Lee was Chinese and they are sooooo ancient. And don't forget the golden chariot drawn by 4 horses filled with the gold dowry. It's all important in a Chinese wedding.

Such good ol' family values couldn't possibly be 1960's American customs right? or even ancient Hebrew/biblical?
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:29 AM   #7
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

Welcome to the forum heda lexa! You bring up some very serious issues in regards to the culture and practices within the Local Church movement.

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.
Mr. E,
While you were busy quoting verses you forgot to ad this one:

"Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior."
2 Timothy 2:16

"Promotes a book"? The only book that is promoted on this forum is the Bible. Nee and Lee are quoted every Wednesday...are they being promoted as well? The quotes are provided to foster discussion...or food for thought if you will. Nothing more, nothing less. As with any forum member, you are more than welcome to suggest a quote or a quip. (Wednesday is reserved for Nee/Lee quotes and Saturday is reserved for quotes by women/sisters)

"Verses were put there by Satan". Jane Anderson never wrote any such thing, or even faintly implied it. Are you really that obtuse or that incurably dense? Her issues were clearly with the translation from the original languages, as well as the interpretations down through the years. Jane made a thoughtful and persuasive case that women/sisters have been systematically excluded from the translation work and even interpretation of the Bible, and the Christian church is much the worse for it. Things have improved in recent history, but we still have a long way to go.

-
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Old 01-04-2018, 11:54 AM   #8
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I find your comment a little racist.
Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:04 PM   #9
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?
I don't know if the Chinese culture was "peddled" to us. I always felt that the Americans were much more malleable to WL than the Chinese and he seemed fearful to push them too much.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:07 PM   #10
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Sorry but women can't have everything e.g. high flying CEO in a demanding job and raising kids. Too many kids grow up without both a mom and dad to raise them I know the story, the mom goes out for coffee hits the gym enjoying herself while the child is handed over to others to raise them.

Maybe you didn't get the memo:

Gen 3:16 Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife ..

1 Tim 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.
No one is ignoring these verses, but neither are we instructed to suppress women, abuse or molest them as both of Lee's sons did for decades.

These verses, however, must be balanced with the desires of our Great Shepherd and the Head of the body who often gifts women to be Evangelists, Teachers, Deaconesses, and Prophetesses.
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:09 PM   #11
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
I don't know if the Chinese culture was "peddled" to us. I always felt that the Americans were much more malleable to WL than the Chinese and he seemed fearful to push them too much.
How else can you interpret the squashing of all things Christmas and Easter, and the use of Chinese New Year for the preaching of the Gospel?
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Old 01-04-2018, 01:28 PM   #12
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
I find your comment a little racist.
The LSM-affiliated lc is shot through with Chinese culture. If pointing that out makes someone racist, then I'm guilty as charged.

The alternative is to ignore the obvious elephant in the room - (Chinese) human culture - and be politically correct and just make occasional comments on the smashed furniture and mysterious piles of elephant dung. Because it's a messy kitchen, you know? Just don't point out what specific kind of mess it is. That might offend someone.
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Old 01-04-2018, 02:54 PM   #13
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

Quote:
Originally Posted by heda lexa View Post
Why does the local church or Witness Lee's church put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her. Like thats all they are worth . Like we are suppose to be ruled by our father then husbands our only place is in the home to raise children. Yeah I know of a sick brother who pressured his wife to get pregnant so she would stay home and cook and clean for him. She wants to work but she been programmed from being raised in the church to follow her husband and not question him.
Welcome to the Forum, heda lexa.

I have not heard that Lee's church puts women's virginity above anything else. I don't doubt it though. What I have observed is that Lee and sons have no qualms about taking a woman's virginity away for their own sick desires. There are so many Lee and LC related questions beginning with the word "why."

The truth is that Satan hates women. The seed of a virgin woman was born into this world who would bring about Satan's end. Keep in mind that no man had a role in the conception of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Men like Lee and sons were short sighted on the role of woman in defeating God's enemy. Today that shortsightedness is still carried on around the world in the mistreatment of women. Some men carry that shortsightedness to the level of misogyny. You've heard from one misogynist already.

One day, all things will be made right. Until then, we stand in the freedom that Christ has made us free. That may necessitate removing ourselves from the abusive environment.

Blessings to you and your friend, heda lexa.

Nell

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Old 01-04-2018, 06:01 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Don't worry you can ignore these verses. They are not part of the bible, they are only ancient Chinese customs. This forum even promotes a book which proves those verses were put there by Satan anyway.
Welcome to the forum heda. I'm not familiar with the thought in the LC that, "put the worth of a woman's virginity up above any thing else about her." The Churches of Witness Lee have a constant drum beat of Witness Lee - I didn't hear the drum beat on a woman's virginity during my time there.

You'll see from the postings of Evangelical that many men within the "LC" don't have a high regard for females. I found this to be true during my time there, which was always sad and a bit confusing. There are many smart and strong women on this forum I'm sure could lend much to your journey.

I haven't seen the forum "promote a book" as Evangelical describes. But then again, I'd be OK with Evangelical. My wife stays at home with the baby and cooks all my meals - shes not a CEO, we don't use a daycare while my wife goes to the gym. So my family passes the Evangelical test. Hurray! Maybe me and Evangelical have more in common then I thought.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:09 PM   #15
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LC practices are steeped with ancient Chinese customs regarding marriage.
Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?
Arranged marriages were always set up by their families, but in the LSM/FTT's the families usually are left out, and paid staffers are entrusted with the trainee's future.

I'd like to know how many of these arrangements have survived. LSM loves their stats, but we never hear about these ones.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:15 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Welcome to the forum heda lexa! You bring up some very serious issues in regards to the culture and practices within the Local Church movement.



Mr. E,
While you were busy quoting verses you forgot to ad this one:

"Avoid worthless, foolish talk that only leads to more godless behavior."
2 Timothy 2:16

"Promotes a book"? The only book that is promoted on this forum is the Bible. Nee and Lee are quoted every Wednesday...are they being promoted as well? The quotes are provided to foster discussion...or food for thought if you will. Nothing more, nothing less. As with any forum member, you are more than welcome to suggest a quote or a quip. (Wednesday is reserved for Nee/Lee quotes and Saturday is reserved for quotes by women/sisters)

"Verses were put there by Satan". Jane Anderson never wrote any such thing, or even faintly implied it. Are you really that obtuse or that incurably dense? Her issues were clearly with the translation from the original languages, as well as the interpretations down through the years. Jane made a thoughtful and persuasive case that women/sisters have been systematically excluded from the translation work and even interpretation of the Bible, and the Christian church is much the worse for it. Things have improved in recent history, but we still have a long way to go.

-
Thankyou UntoHim for tempering my remarks.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:31 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by aron View Post
The LSM-affiliated lc is shot through with Chinese culture. If pointing that out makes someone racist, then I'm guilty as charged.

The alternative is to ignore the obvious elephant in the room - (Chinese) human culture - and be politically correct and just make occasional comments on the smashed furniture and mysterious piles of elephant dung. Because it's a messy kitchen, you know? Just don't point out what specific kind of mess it is. That might offend someone.
The value of a woman's virginity is not from Chinese culture it is biblical.
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Old 01-04-2018, 07:33 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Racist? No! Honest? Yes!

But when a minister peddles to us Chinese Culture as super-spirituality, then we ought to expose it for what it is. These are people's lives you are playing with. Why do you think that the "color" of typical LC members, transitioning from white to yellow over the past half century, is inversely proportional to level of control exerted by LSM over these LC's?

Tell me again why only Chinese New Years (one of LSM's official "Feasts") can be used to preach the Gospel, and not American holidays like Christmas or Easter? And you want us to believe that there has not been an invasion of Chinese Culture into the LC's?
This comment is also a little racist as it refers to people's color from white to yellow.

FYI valuing virginity is not Chinese culture it is biblical culture.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:48 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Interesting that even years after graduating FTAA they use the concept of arranged marriage. I don't really think I even have a problem with the concept (haven't put much thought into it) but it is a very unusual practice in America. I remember FTTA grads asking elders to set them up at a training in Anaheim. For whatever reason, they were unable to talk to other FTTA's without first clearing it through an elder. I assumed the guys were just chicken to talk to the girls, but maybe there is more to it. I know one guy that even asked the girl if she would say yes IF he proposed... I've never heard of that before.

Do any FTTA grads on the site have details on these rules that they follow?
My wife and I are both FTTA graduates. After finishing the FTTA, I asked a coworker to check with my (now) wife to see if she was available, and if she was willing/interested to talk with me. That brother spoke with her, and then conveyed to me that she was "open." I then contacted her directly and asked her on a date. I think that's fairly normal practice, and many people do skip the "middle-man." I don't think it is fair to say that FTTA "arranges" marriages.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:36 AM   #21
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My wife and I are both FTTA graduates. After finishing the FTTA, I asked a coworker to check with my (now) wife to see if she was available, and if she was willing/interested to talk with me. That brother spoke with her, and then conveyed to me that she was "open." I then contacted her directly and asked her on a date. I think that's fairly normal practice, and many people do skip the "middle-man." I don't think it is fair to say that FTTA "arranges" marriages.
Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?
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Old 01-05-2018, 07:36 AM   #22
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This comment is also a little racist as it refers to people's color from white to yellow.

FYI valuing virginity is not Chinese culture it is biblical culture.
If you google "Witness Lee white red black brown yellow" he used these colors all the time to characterize ethnicities.

Or google "Witness Lee typical American" or "Witness Lee Caucasian Chinese" you will see many references in his public speaking. They're all published and visible on-line. Yet I never heard anyone call him racist. Why the double standard?

Valuing virginity is biblical culture. But the larger point remains, that what was chosen and waved by this ministry, and what was ignored or even panned as "fallen" was entirely due to culturally-sourced biases of the expositor.

Everyone has bias. But the problem with LSM is that they presumed there wasn't any, that the only lc culture was "heavenly culture", that critiquing the ministry was tantamount to rebellion against God.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:25 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?
I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. "The brothers" have arranged marriages since my first contact with it in 1972. Do they arrange ALL marriages? No. Although, it was risky for a couple to marry "without permission." You can think of them as pushy, nosey matchmakers who think they know everything.

I know one sister who refused their "match" for her and married someone else from another locality. This couple moved away from Texas, where at last contact, they are still married and still in the LC. This makes the point that some can "get away" with disobedience to the elders and some can't.

One visiting couple who was dating at their first visit were assigned a local to sit with them. Soon, the local was sitting between them and serious effort was made to split them up. These obvious antics were shallow enough that the couple caught on pretty quickly and they stopped coming to meetings. It was so obvious what was going on, you could spot it across the hall. If it weren't so pathetically sad, it would be laughable.

I heard Ray Graver say once that the only thing worse than marrying the wrong person was to never find and marry the right person.

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Old 01-05-2018, 09:28 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by leastofthese View Post
Your description falls in line with what I've seen. If it isn't fair to call it an arranged marriage (not disagreeing with you), what would be the correct terminology? LSM brokered marriage?

Is this a practice that comes from the Chinese culture? Again, I'm not saying this is wrong or bad - but different. Why didn't you feel it appropriate to talk with your (now wife) first? Were you seeking council in a way? Was it an unwritten rule?
I didn't consider it "brokered" or related to LSM in any way. I liked this girl, and I wanted to know her situation without embarrassing myself. A major factor is that most in the LC court secretly (I no longer consider this good practice), so an interested young man has little way of knowing if a girl is already seeing someone or not.

Because it is common practice to go through an older person, I also think many sisters consider it too "forward" for a young brother to approach directly. Yet, I also have heard some sisters say they would find it more attractive if a brother did approach directly. So, there is some diversity of opinion. In my own mind at the time, I was seeking council and also some assurance that someone older and wiser than me knew what was going on and was praying for me. I might not do it the same way now, but I have never considered the process nefarious. More old-fashioned.

Also, although many young people may consider it an unwritten rule, I know that LC coworkers and FTTA trainers would be quick to say it isn't and that people are free to approach each other directly (after the training). As for Chinese culture, I'm not sure. This practice may more be a byproduct of FTTA culture where young people are always seeking spiritual confirmation of everything and are afraid to make mistakes.
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Old 01-05-2018, 05:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by aron View Post
If you google "Witness Lee white red black brown yellow" he used these colors all the time to characterize ethnicities.

Or google "Witness Lee typical American" or "Witness Lee Caucasian Chinese" you will see many references in his public speaking. They're all published and visible on-line. Yet I never heard anyone call him racist. Why the double standard?

Valuing virginity is biblical culture. But the larger point remains, that what was chosen and waved by this ministry, and what was ignored or even panned as "fallen" was entirely due to culturally-sourced biases of the expositor.

Everyone has bias. But the problem with LSM is that they presumed there wasn't any, that the only lc culture was "heavenly culture", that critiquing the ministry was tantamount to rebellion against God.
aron, I am not so PC that I take issue with referring to people by their skin color. That is not what I'm talking about.

What is racist is when a person's skin color is stated to be the reason for something. In this case, Ohio wrote that a person's skin color "is inversely proportional to level of control". In effect saying "white people are this.. "yellow people are that".
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:08 PM   #26
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

Evangelical - Ohio wrote that a person's skin color "is inversely proportional to level of control".

Ohio said that the ratio of yellow to white was inversely proportional to the level of control. In other words, Chinese are comfortable with high levels of control, and Caucasians are not. So the face of the LSM-affiliated lc is increasingly yellow.

This is no different from Witness Lee talking about "red, black, brown, white and yellow" in the church that met as the Lord's recovery. Or talking about "typical Americans" or "Caucasians versus Chinese". And he used that kind of language a lot, and I don't recall anyone being offended, at least saying it.

The Chinese culture values stability. Occasional "storms" are part of that. American, or Western culture values independence. "Every man to his own tent" comes with that.

The LSM-affiliated lc is very tightly controlled by the center, and its demographic is increasingly Chinese. It has an increasingly yellow face. Sorry to point out the obvious. It's nothing different from what Witness Lee would say from the podium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Myer
In Most Places the Organization Will Become Increasingly Asian
Cursory observation will confirm that both worldwide and in major cities of North America, the Local Churches have become predominately Asian. This includes almost all Movement offshoots (such as in the North American Midwest). While race in a congregation should not be an issue restricting Christian fellowship, it can be indicative of whether a church is indeed “local.”

Fifty or more years ago, Witness Lee imported a church and ministry model to North America via Taiwan and the Far East. That import has had only limited success in North America, because it simply doesn’t fit 21st century North American culture. Hence Asian people are vastly over-represented in the LC movement because the model fits them more closely (although even some Asian scholars are beginning to see problems with it). Caucasians and especially Afro-Americans are typically underrepresented wherever the Movement sets up a church.

The unanswered question is how a “local church” can claim to be authentically local when its majority membership is made up of a minority group within that city. For years members were told that “the Lord is moving among the Chinese,” as though He had no interest in working with the Caucasian and Afro- Americans in the community. Few if any could see the difference between divine work and the elementary limitations of foreign culture. While this blindness continues, the churches will continue becoming Asian and especially as long as Lee’s imported model is sold as being “the pattern of the tabernacle,” “the vision,” or “the recovery.” It would be very difficult to say how much spiritual desolation has already happened in LSM churches, but it has occurred to the extent that outsiders notice it. On a regular basis I receive emails from individuals and on some occasions, entire ministries. They wonder why LC people fight so hard for mainstream recognition in the media and yet conduct themselves so poorly in actual fellowship. They wonder if this group is a ministry, a church, or a cult.

Many have assayed to define the Local Church of Witness Lee. As an ex-long term member and leader in the group, I will also attempt a final opinion: The Local Church of Witness Lee is a splinter sect of the Closed Brethren, modified by Asian culture and peculiarly developed because of its isolation from the rest of the Body of Christ.
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Old 01-05-2018, 06:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
I didn't consider it "brokered" or related to LSM in any way. I liked this girl, and I wanted to know her situation without embarrassing myself. A major factor is that most in the LC court secretly (I no longer consider this good practice), so an interested young man has little way of knowing if a girl is already seeing someone or not.

Because it is common practice to go through an older person, I also think many sisters consider it too "forward" for a young brother to approach directly. Yet, I also have heard some sisters say they would find it more attractive if a brother did approach directly. So, there is some diversity of opinion. In my own mind at the time, I was seeking council and also some assurance that someone older and wiser than me knew what was going on and was praying for me. I might not do it the same way now, but I have never considered the process nefarious. More old-fashioned.

Also, although many young people may consider it an unwritten rule, I know that LC coworkers and FTTA trainers would be quick to say it isn't and that people are free to approach each other directly (after the training). As for Chinese culture, I'm not sure. This practice may more be a byproduct of FTTA culture where young people are always seeking spiritual confirmation of everything and are afraid to make mistakes.
Thanks for the input. I have heard the concept of the secret "LC" courtship - I think the brother told me it was a "covering" or something like that?

I'm (technically) a millennial, but I would have thought the "old-fashioned" way would be for the guy to approach the girl himself and ask her out eye to eye. That's how I did it, but I also spoke with her parents before asking her hand in marriage...
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Thanks for the input. I have heard the concept of the secret "LC" courtship - I think the brother told me it was a "covering" or something like that?

I'm (technically) a millennial, but I would have thought the "old-fashioned" way would be for the guy to approach the girl himself and ask her out eye to eye. That's how I did it, but I also spoke with her parents before asking her hand in marriage...
You and I are probably around the same age, and I know what you mean. Maybe it appears "old-fashioned" to me in some sort of religious context. Or perhaps you are right, and the practice is Chinese? My wife and I are both Asian, but born and raised in the US, so I relate to these things less as "Chinese" practices and more as byproducts of the LC experience.

I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.

If I may ask, leastofthese, was your wife a member of the LC?
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Old 01-06-2018, 07:21 AM   #29
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
You and I are probably around the same age, and I know what you mean. Maybe it appears "old-fashioned" to me in some sort of religious context. Or perhaps you are right, and the practice is Chinese? My wife and I are both Asian, but born and raised in the US, so I relate to these things less as "Chinese" practices and more as byproducts of the LC experience.

I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.

If I may ask, leastofthese, was your wife a member of the LC?
Yes she was - but did not grow up in it. Her experience with the LSM churches was mostly through home meetings. She enjoyed the simplicity, the multi-generational fellowship, and had a close friend attending. Her friend also didn't grow up in the LSM churches. She had read very little Lee*, but had read some Nee. The concept of "locality" is interesting and attractive until you see how it is carried out practically in the LSM churches - and Lee's teaching on locality is not only extra biblical, but borders (or crosses) on heresy.

*edit - she had read very little Lee outside of the "footnotes", emanna, and HWFMR. In the churches of Witness Lee, Lee WILL be preached. Rule #1
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:02 PM   #30
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Evangelical - Ohio wrote that a person's skin color "is inversely proportional to level of control".

Ohio said that the ratio of yellow to white was inversely proportional to the level of control. In other words, Chinese are comfortable with high levels of control, and Caucasians are not. So the face of the LSM-affiliated lc is increasingly yellow.

This is no different from Witness Lee talking about "red, black, brown, white and yellow" in the church that met as the Lord's recovery. Or talking about "typical Americans" or "Caucasians versus Chinese". And he used that kind of language a lot, and I don't recall anyone being offended, at least saying it.

The Chinese culture values stability. Occasional "storms" are part of that. American, or Western culture values independence. "Every man to his own tent" comes with that.

The LSM-affiliated lc is very tightly controlled by the center, and its demographic is increasingly Chinese. It has an increasingly yellow face. Sorry to point out the obvious. It's nothing different from what Witness Lee would say from the podium.
So you agree it means yellow skinned people are comfortable with control and white skinned people are not. This seems racist to me. What about yellow skinned people born in America.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:02 PM   #31
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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So you agree it means yellow skinned people are comfortable with control and white skinned people are not. This seems racist to me. What about yellow skinned people born in America.
Now I remember you!

You're the guy who stood up in the trainings to protest Brother Lee, when he went off on one of his yellow/white rants.
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Old 01-06-2018, 08:27 PM   #32
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

I think the whole covering of courtship results in many more getting hurt than if people were open and honest in the long run
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Old 01-07-2018, 02:29 AM   #33
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Now I remember you!

You're the guy who stood up in the trainings to protest Brother Lee, when he went off on one of his yellow/white rants.
Ohio,

In all fairness, it's no longer 1978, and we should perhaps respect the sensibilities of the age. "Increasingly Asian" makes the same point without risking offense, and distracting he conversation. And the point should be made.

I know there's also a loss to submit to the "politically correct" mode, but still, it may be best to keep the focus where it belongs.
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Old 01-11-2018, 08:38 PM   #34
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I think the whole covering of courtship results in many more getting hurt than if people were open and honest in the long run
I think the elders and controlers of LSM and the LC movement are agnostic in that they cant trust the Spirit to lead and minister in the hearts of young people to find spouses. It seems that the elders think the Spirit needs the elders to meddle, give opinions, and guide the saints according to natural knowledge.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:22 PM   #35
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I think the elders and controlers of LSM and the LC movement are agnostic in that they cant trust the Spirit to lead and minister in the hearts of young people to find spouses. It seems that the elders think the Spirit needs the elders to meddle, give opinions, and guide the saints according to natural knowledge.
Wow you hit the nail on the head!!! That makes so much sense.

I remember watching how things transpired between brothers and sisters from a young age and thought it was kind of odd that the elders had such a say. Like if two people loved each other but a brother didn't have a "sense of peace" about it they would stop pursuing the relationship. And yes, I do think it made it worse. It's like no one really had a real choice, ever. And that's such a mind screw. So frustrating and not normal!!!

It's bad enough that they limit the interactions between brothers and sisters when it's normal for them to want to start talking. But that the elders have such a place in the beginning of the relationship, and the wedding itself in a lot of cases isn't cool. Also just the underlying suspicion/lack of trust wasn't cool.
It's not normal for every head to turn when a brother is trying to talk to a sister. It's weird.

I felt too smothered and just couldn't deal with the judgement, gossip, control and constant waiting for the ok just to talk to someone!!! I just couldn't bear the thought of having to live up to such high standards and fit into so many boxes just to be "allowed" to have something that was normal. I'm glad that there are some that are happily married but sadly there aren't enough success stories with their "model"
It just makes sense to connect the dots-there isn't much respect or trust that things really do work out for the good to those who love God.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:20 AM   #36
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Default Re: Witness Lee's church puts a women's virginity above anything else

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Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
You and I are probably around the same age, and I know what you mean. Maybe it appears "old-fashioned" to me in some sort of religious context. Or perhaps you are right, and the practice is Chinese? My wife and I are both Asian, but born and raised in the US, so I relate to these things less as "Chinese" practices and more as byproducts of the LC experience.

I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.

If I may ask, leastofthese, was your wife a member of the LC?
Oh! This “covering” issue is so bizarre and outdated. It’s awful really. I have a family member who did this before they were married. They had talked marriage and were very serious, of course “fellowshipping” with another couple and obeying all the rules. Which, good for then if that made them feel great. To each their own...it’s just obviously not their “own” but the LC way- but that’s besides the point!

That was their choice.

The funny thing was, it DOES create even more gossip bc people know- they pick up on things, and questions and rumors get started. Hopefully the secret didn’t lead any other bro/sis’s on with secret hopes- but we’ll never know! I remember this family member telling me people were asking about her and her spouse before they were married and she denied it- saying they were just friends. Um, besides the fact that you could tell she thought it was funny that she had that “secret” that people wanted to know- isn’t that flat out LYING?? But, somehow it’s justified bc it’s “covered” information and that person didn’t have the right to ask so they deserve to be given a lie.

By the way, we’re talking about a group of Christians!!

It’s just another example of bad practices playing out!

Kind of funny story on the same topic, our family knew of their “arrangement” before they were engaged but not many other people. I accidentally posted a picture on Facebook of our family at lunch with my
future bro-in- law in it. All I can saw is-WOW!!!

It wasn’t 10 min and I got a call to take it down immediately!! It’s so silly. I took it down- the whole games they play are ridiculous though!
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:27 AM   #37
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I do think the practice of "secret" courtship leads to a lot of disfunction and irrational trepidation about entering into relationships (and also a more artificial dating experience). The logic I have heard is about "covering"--that you don't want to create an atmosphere for gossip by pursuing a relationship out in the open. So, you create this strange environment where hardly anybody knows about the status of your relationship until you announce engagement.
Koinonia- I couldn’t agree more. Nothing is perfect but this is certainly something that needs to change. You can’t “fix” gossip with practices, gossip will find a way of sneaking in through the back door, even stronger bc the “secret” is now bigger. Marriage is an idol to many of these women and it’s easy to see why. They are seeing the “best versions” of each other- without being alone and letting their guards down. I mean, it is a personal discipline to exercise self control and although things may happen- it’s a personal walk and decision between you and Jesus. No elder can or should try to “control” that. Guide, yes. Control, no. This “covering” issue is so bizarre and outdated. It’s awful really. I have a family member who did this before they were married. They had talked marriage and were very serious, of course “fellowshipping” with another couple and obeying all the rules. Which, good for then if they made them feel great. To each their own...it’s just obviously not their “own” but the LC way- but that’s besides the point!

That was their choice.

The funny thing was, it DOES create even more gossip bc people know- they pick up on things, and questions and rumors get started. Hopefully the secret didn’t lead any other bro/sis’s on with secret hopes- but we’ll never know! I remember this family member telling me people were asking about her and her spouse before they were married and she denied it- saying they were just friends. Um, besides the fact that you could tell she thought it was funny that she had that “secret” that people wanted to know- isn’t that flat out LYING?? But, somehow it’s justified bc it’s “covered” information and that person didn’t have the right to ask so they deserve to be given a lie.

By the way, we’re talking about a group of Christians!!

It’s just another example of bad practices playing out!

Kind of funny story on the same topic, our family knew of their “arrangement” before they were engaged but not many other people. I accidentally posted a picture on Facebook of our family where my future bro in law was included. Wow- it was a genuine mistake but I got a panicked phone call within an hr- saying the picture must be taken down immediately. They weren’t too happy with me- to say the least.

I’m sure they went into damage control mode-wondering how many people “knew” the secret now. I took it down but was just surprised at the level of urgency. They are so concerned with doing things in the “right LC PC way.” I’m sorry, I’m just trying to live my life and if you want me to cover for you or keep secrets then maybe they should write up a Non-Disclosure Agreement for the “potential couples” to give to other family members!

I’m not trying to be harsh. It’s just so weird to me that they can’t even be seen in the same Facebook picture when they’re already talking about marriage- bc of the LC culture. Then, I’m the one “in the wrong” for not being considerate of that. It’s too much- I’m just so tired of that kind of behavior. I don’t think it’s normal for a Christian and think it’s 100% LC culture and not Jesus. Then also, living under the insinuation from them that they are the ones in the “light,” and I’m “negative” is just too much sometimes.

I need some Jesus love today- sorry for my negative words. It’s just frustrating and I wish that kind of stuff wouldn’t be such an alienating problem. It’s a bunch of these little things that lead to bitterness and that’s the last thing I want.

Balancing shining light of these issues to expose them- and also relating to them personally is a tricky thing to handle emotionally.

I don’t blame the people acting this way- it’s the LC culture and it’s a big problem.
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