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Old 12-27-2019, 01:37 PM   #1
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Default Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Those are the two things I suspected some on here might have issue with!

As far as "must" (call on Him) it does say that, "Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Phil 2:11) But it might be more palatable to some to replace "must" with "should."

And I have an awareness that some object to saying Christ became a Spirit (at least I think that's what they object to), but I haven't figured out why exactly . . .
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Old 12-27-2019, 09:26 PM   #2
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Default Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

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Those are the two things I suspected some on here might have issue with!

As far as "must" (call on Him) it does say that, "Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." (Phil 2:11) But it might be more palatable to some to replace "must" with "should."

And I have an awareness that some object to saying Christ became a Spirit (at least I think that's what they object to), but I haven't figured out why exactly . . .
The issue lies in saying Christ became The Spirit because 1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn’t say that. Here is what it actually says

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-45.htm
Speaking in the context of resurrection it says The last Adam was made a life giving spirit (a not The, and small s not capital S). This speaks of Jesus Christ as the last Adam in contrast to the first Adam that God made a living soul. Jesus came to raise the dead and to give life, and give it abundantly. That is his function, not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity.
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Old 12-28-2019, 08:47 AM   #3
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Default Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

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The issue lies in saying Christ became The Spirit because 1 Corinthians 15:45 doesn’t say that. Here is what it actually says

https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-45.htm
Speaking in the context of resurrection it says The last Adam was made a life giving spirit (a not The, and small s not capital S). This speaks of Jesus Christ as the last Adam in contrast to the first Adam that God made a living soul. Jesus came to raise the dead and to give life, and give it abundantly. That is his function, not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity.
Amen. This - "not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity" - gets into matters of the Trinity, of which I don't understand and am not qualified to speak. Various verses do say "Spirit of His Son" and "Spirit of Christ" and "Spirit of Jesus." (Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6, Acts. 16:7) I've heard it said that these are referring to the indwelling Christ, while the HS is without for power. Could that be?
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Old 12-28-2019, 09:20 AM   #4
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Default Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

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Amen. This - "not necessarily becoming one of the other three of the Trinity" - gets into matters of the Trinity, of which I don't understand and am not qualified to speak. Various verses do say "Spirit of His Son" and "Spirit of Christ" and "Spirit of Jesus." (Rom 8:9, Gal 4:6, Acts. 16:7) I've heard it said that these are referring to the indwelling Christ, while the HS is without for power. Could that be?
Right, there are many other verses to look at (I have links below to the Greek inter linear of them because it shows whether the article The or a are really there and whether spirit is capitalized or not). When I read them all together it seems that there is something mysterious about how Christ is in us and The Spirit is too.

Galatians 4:6

https://biblehub.com/blb/galatians/4.htm

2 Corinthians 3:17

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

2 Corinthians 3:18

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-18.htm

Acts 16:7

https://biblehub.com/text/acts/16-7.htm

Philippians 1:19

https://biblehub.com/text/philippians/1-19.htm

Romans 8:9


https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-9.htm


Romans 8:10

https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-10.htm

Colossians 1:27


https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-27.htm
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Old 12-29-2019, 03:25 PM   #5
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Thanks for those verses and Greek references! Yes, it would seem where pneuma (spirit) is pertaining to divinity the article "the" is used in front of it. The times it is not used would seem to indicate our human spirit (as Romans 8:9-10 clearly shows).

1st Corinthians 3:16 says, “Do you not know your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?” I remember being in a Romans training where Lee was talking about this passage in Romans 8:9-11 (edited from Greek - see below):
Quote:
You, however, are not in flesh, but in spirit, if indeed Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead is dwelling in you, the One who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who dwells in you.
I recall Lee conveyed something like this regarding the above passage - "So who is in you? Is it God? Is it Christ? Is it The Spirit? No one can say for sure! It seems it could be pretty crowded in there! " And then he laughed. The point I took away is that no one can figure this out in our limited, human mentality. It's like the pot trying to figure out the potter, who is infinitely more uncomprehendable.
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Old 12-29-2019, 06:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Sons to Glory,: “thanks for those verses and Greek references! Yes, it would seem where pneuma (spirit) is pertaining to divinity the article "the" is used in front of it. The times it is not used would seem to indicate our human spirit (as Romans 8:9-10 clearly shows).

1st Corinthians 3:16 says, “Do you not know your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?” I remember being in a Romans training where Lee was talking about this passage in Romans 8:9-11 (edited from Greek - see below)”

I wish Bible translators capitalized Spirit when it was capitalized in the Greek manuscripts and didn’t add The, of, etc... but maybe there are legitimate translation reasons because English is not Greek. I wish I knew. Romans 8 mostly uses spirit, but most translators translate Spirit most of the time and are inconsistent between translations throwing us into more unclarity.

I also thought it interesting that literal translations of two of the verses say “Spirit Christ” and “Spirit Jesus Christ” but translators add “of” between Spirit and Christ as well as Spirit and Jesus respectively. There is also a verse that says Lord Spirit. Maybe someone with Greek manuscript and Greek expertise can tell us if there are good reasons for these or if they are wrong to do this.
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Old 12-29-2019, 08:37 PM   #7
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Challenging Witness Lee’s Annointing Oil Explanation

Life Study of Exodus Chapter 159 Section 2
Lee quotes Andrew Murray’s the Spirit of Christ (fifth chapter) and says

“The term ‘Holy Spirit’ was not used in the Old Testament. The Holy Spirit is first mentioned in the New Testament when Christ was conceived.”

Fact check:

Isaiah 63:10-11 https://biblehub.com/isaiah/63-10.htm

Psalms 51:11 https://biblehub.com/psalms/51-11.htm

Hebrews 9:8 https://biblehub.com/hebrews/9-8.htm

2 Peter 1:21 https://biblehub.com/2_peter/1-21.htm

Luke 1:15 https://biblehub.com/luke/1-15.htm

Luke 1:41 https://biblehub.com/luke/1-15.htm

Truth: not only is the term Holy Spirit used in the Old Testament, writers of the New Testament tell us the Holy Spirit was involved in its writing, the children of Israel rebelled against the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was involved in John the Baptist’s birth too.

Note this verse too which suggests the Spirit of Christ or even Spirit Christ was in the Old Testament prophets as they spoke of Christ’s sufferings and glories afterward


https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-11.htm

https://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/1-11.htm
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Old 12-30-2019, 10:16 AM   #8
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

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Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Right, there are many other verses to look at (I have links below to the Greek inter linear of them because it shows whether the article The or a are really there and whether spirit is capitalized or not). When I read them all together it seems that there is something mysterious about how Christ is in us and The Spirit is too.

Galatians 4:6

https://biblehub.com/blb/galatians/4.htm

2 Corinthians 3:17

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-17.htm

2 Corinthians 3:18

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-18.htm

Acts 16:7

https://biblehub.com/text/acts/16-7.htm

Philippians 1:19

https://biblehub.com/text/philippians/1-19.htm

Romans 8:9


https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-9.htm


Romans 8:10

https://biblehub.com/text/romans/8-10.htm

Colossians 1:27


https://biblehub.com/text/colossians/1-27.htm
More verses I missed on this topic:

2 Corinthians 3:6

https://biblehub.com/text/2_corinthians/3-6.htm

John 6:63

https://biblehub.com/text/john/6-63.htm

John 20:22


https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-22.htm

Regarding that verse https://biblehub.com/greek/1720.htm
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Old 12-30-2019, 11:09 AM   #9
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Good citations! So was Lee trying to say that the HS wasn't present until after Christ's resurrection? The verses cited from the OT don't appear to have a definite article (the) in front of "Holy Spirit" as is present in the NT. Could these verses in the OT be more of a description rather than a specific name?

In looking at the nature of God, spirit is a key description (along with love & light). And we have spirit used for a number of divine "entities" (that is perhaps not the best word to use) including:

Spirit of God
Spirit of Christ
Spirit of Jesus Christ
Spirit of His Son
The Spirit
The Holy Spirit
A life-giving spirit
Seven spirits of God

Concerning Romans 8:9-11, to my knowledge no other passage portrays as wide array of references about who is in us, like it does. What are your thoughts on that passage?
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Old 12-30-2019, 04:05 PM   #10
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Good citations! So was Lee trying to say that the HS wasn't present until after Christ's resurrection? The verses cited from the OT don't appear to have a definite article (the) in front of "Holy Spirit" as is present in the NT. Could these verses in the OT be more of a description rather than a specific name?

In looking at the nature of God, spirit is a key description (along with love & light). And we have spirit used for a number of divine "entities" (that is perhaps not the best word to use) including:

Spirit of God
Spirit of Christ
Spirit of Jesus Christ
Spirit of His Son
The Spirit
The Holy Spirit
A life-giving spirit
Seven spirits of God

Concerning Romans 8:9-11, to my knowledge no other passage portrays as wide array of references about who is in us, like it does. What are your thoughts on that passage?
I'd really like to have input from some trained well in Koine Greek. I took one short course, and that certainly doesn't qualify me to draw a conclusion.

No recall Lee said the Holy Spirit wasn't around until Christ's incarnation. And, he said the Holy Spirit is what was typified by the olive oil in the annointing oil described in Exodus to which were added the other ingredients (one of the basis for his claim that God was processed and that Christ is now The Spirit). He claimed the incarnation of Jesus as the first step of God being processed. My point was he apparently didn't check a concordance to check if what he (admittedly) cribbed from Andrew Murray was right or not. The shame is I didn't check either but assumed he was right. You know the saying: to assume is to make a donkey out of me and you. What a bunch of donkeys we all were to listen to this guy for so long! No more! Especially with the power of tools like Bible Hub at my finger tips!

Here is another verse to add to the mix. John 4:24 https://biblehub.com/text/john/4-24.htm

And you brought up the seven Spirits who are before God's throne in Revelation https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/1-4.htm That has a capital in the Greek.

I said before something mysterious is going on, and my thoughts are still along those lines. Maybe the point is to know that both God's Spirit and our spirit are involved in spiritual matters (how profound ) The more one tries to explain things the more one digs a hole for oneself on this topic.
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Old 12-31-2019, 01:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

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Actually the resurrection, and most specifically, our belief in it, are one of the keys to the Gospel, at least to the apostle Paul it was. Here's some verses from 1st Corinthians 15, a chapter we should all be very familiar with:
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, (vrs 3,4 -emphasis mine)

Unfortunately for the followers of Witness Lee, he pretty much ignored the beginning of this wonderful chapter (considering it "the low gospel") and instead chose to over-emphasis the latter part, and in the process completely misinterpreted what the apostle Paul was teaching. The entire chapter is speaking of resurrection, with the bodily resurrection of our Lord being the catalyst, the initiation, the inauguration of the resurrection of those who would believe in him. Paul couldn't have been any clearer - - it wasn't about what Jesus Christ became, but rather what became of his physical body. Through the resurrection - the raising, life-giving power of the Holy Spirit - Christ gained "a spiritual body". "It is raised a spiritual body" (vr 44) If Lee is right about verse 45 saying that Jesus Christ became the Holy Spirit, then it would follow that all the believers will become life-giving S(s)pirits at the resurrection. Thankfully, Lee's crazy teachings only have an influence on that tiny little sect down the street from Disneyland.
-
I copied this over from another thread as I think it fits in this conversation . . .

So WL taught that Christ became the HS after resurrection - and also that the HS didn't exist prior to that, right? I guess I didn't hear that from him, or realize I heard it. But that would make sense if he did indeed preach Modalism (or at least what I understad Modalism to be).
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Old 12-31-2019, 02:13 PM   #12
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Thanks for bringing this post over StG! I thought about that as soon as I hit the "post" button!

Actually Lee did NOT teach that the HS did not exist before the resurrection (even Witness wouldn't go that far!) what he did teach is the the Spirit was "intensified" and that Jesus' humanity was "added" to the Holy Spirit. Lee's take was that the verse in John that says "the Spirit was not yet" meant that the Spirit was not yet existing with the humanity of Jesus added, and some how, some way, the power of the resurrection intensified him to become "the life-giving Spirit". This all fits in with his "processed triune God" teaching, where God literally went through a "process", and in this process the humanity of Jesus was "added" to the Holy Spirit. I'm kind of surprised you don't remember this teaching....it was a staple, bread and butter teaching of Witness Lee.

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Old 12-31-2019, 02:41 PM   #13
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Yes, I sure do remember that teaching! (no card-carrying ex-LCer could say otherwise!) What I was referring to was I thought I heard on this forum that Lee taught the HS didn't exist before Christ . . . maybe I was reading that wrong.
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Old 12-31-2019, 03:00 PM   #14
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I don't recall anyone saying anything close to this. Maybe you were reading on some other website. Besides, most of Witness Lee's teachings are so off-the-wall there is really no need to make up something out of the blue.
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Old 01-05-2020, 08:08 AM   #15
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Some verses going through me this morning were 1 Cor 15:45 and Romans 8:2.

"The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit." "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and of death."

Then I ran across this one: “Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you . . .?" (1 Cor 6:19)

(and then all the verses in Romans 8 that says Who is in us - Christ; Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus; The Spirit; Spirit of Christ . . .)

We certainly can't figure this out on our own - it must come through revelation! I think our part is just to call on Him, be refreshed by His Spirit, and let Him reveal to us what He may! My experience over 45 years is that to try to understand this is chasing after the wind folly.
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Old 01-05-2020, 12:25 PM   #16
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Read 1 Cor. 15:45 in a Greek interlinear again, brother (caps are different). Also read Romans 8:1 in an interlinear (no caps). It’s even more mysterious yet true and worthy of believing and rejoicing in!
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Old 01-05-2020, 02:44 PM   #17
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I have an interlinear app on my phone and looked at it when citing those verses.

This morning I had the thought that maybe it was Christ in us and the HS upon us. But then saw 1 Cor 6:19 which blew that theory apart! I'm actually happy to not be able to figure it out!
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Old 01-05-2020, 04:40 PM   #18
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Hmm. I’ve been using Bible Hub on-line. https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/15-45.htm and it has lower case. I’ll check my old Nestle’s Greek text and see what it has. Agreed. Mind blowing when the Trinity is involved.

That reminds me of Cor 13:12

https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/13-12.htm

That was when glass technology had not been perfected to make a mirror with a clear reflection like today. Mirrors were often made of polished metals, and the reflection tended to have distortions and imperfections. https://biblehub.com/str/greek/2072.htm
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Old 01-06-2020, 06:47 AM   #19
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

I use Bible Hub all the time and really like it! My phone app is the Hebrew/Greek Interlinear Bible by Hagios Tech. And actually, spirit was not capitalized in 1 Cor 15:45, but isn't that just a judgement call on their part? Or is it just because the article "a" is used instead of "the"?

For instance in Romans 8:9 (Gk), "You now not in flesh but in Spirit." They capitalize spirit, but why? Since it appears they are contrasting human flesh with human spirit. And in verse 13 mine inserts the article "the" before spirit, and they capitalize it. But I think translators often do that - an apparent default thinking that any instance of the word pneuma must pertain specifically to God.
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Old 01-06-2020, 01:21 PM   #20
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Yes, that’s what I’ve been trying to get at, many translations sometimes add or take away articles and aren’t consistently following the Greek text for capitalizing and it just adds to the difficulty when it comes to spirit and Spirit! I’m no Greek expert, and wish one who is could weigh in.

Here is a link to another couple relevant verses in the inter linear (look at the one linked and the next verse too: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/2-11.htm). These certainly suggest The Spirit is for knowing the things of God while the spirit knows the things of man. Recall Witness Lee wanted us to turn to the spirit all the time! When we did were we then getting the things of man rather than the things of God? My experience was yes!
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Old 01-06-2020, 08:01 PM   #21
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In the verses I linked the English translation adds and deletes words too! Aargh!
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Old 01-08-2020, 11:13 AM   #22
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Christ, ion resurrection, took on a new form. A body that was both physical (can be touched) and "spiritual" (more like thinking "ghost"). Yet Christ was always "spirit." (John 4) And Christ is life-giving. So in the context of a discussion on the nature of the body that is received in the resurrection, Christ "became" a life-giving "spirit." He already gave life. Now his body is different (and Paul is calling that body "spiritual").

Whatever it is that Lee said that keeps bringing this subject up is nonsense because Lee is talking about Christ (the Son, the 2nd of the trinity) becoming the Spirit (the 3rd of the trinity). Paul just does not say any such thing.
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Old 01-08-2020, 11:33 AM   #23
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Yep!!
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
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Old 01-10-2020, 08:46 PM   #24
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https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/7-39.htm

This is a good example of how translators add and delete articles to make it read in English, but they got the capital S in Spirit right.

It is interesting to me that:

1: Jesus says “if anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink (v37)
2: and “the one believing in me, Rivers of living water out of his belly will flow (not in but out).(v38)
3: He said this of The Spirit, whom those who believe in him were about to receive; not yet for was Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (v 39)

So those who believe in Him = come to Him and drink, out of their belly (translated innermost being) will flow Rivers of living water.
And, because Jesus was glorified this is “of The Spirit”.

Lee called this Jesus becoming The Spirit, and God being processed.

I’m just glad he calls us to believe in Him. We drink of Him, the Spirit comes out “as a River” out of “our belly.” Praise Him for His call to drink of Him as the living water and The Spirit flowing back out.

If anyone has it figured out they have a better mind than I do.
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Old 01-11-2020, 08:36 AM   #25
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

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Originally Posted by byHismercy View Post
Yep!!
1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
That is just the most AWESOME verse ---> To me it shows the absolute futility of our natural minds in trying to understand God and His nature!
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Old 01-11-2020, 09:16 AM   #26
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
That is just the most AWESOME verse ---> To me it shows the absolute futility of our natural minds in trying to understand God and His nature!
Only in the KJV ...
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Old 01-11-2020, 10:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Only in the KJV ...
Isn't that the version they read in heaven?

My phone app interlinear reads 1 John 5:7 as: "For three there are bearing testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three one are."
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Old 01-11-2020, 11:13 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Isn't that the version they read in heaven?

My phone app interlinear reads 1 John 5:7 as: "For three there are bearing testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit and these three one are."
I'll pass on the KJV discussion.

But saying that any three that bear witness on something are one actually is not so unable to be understood. It is not a declaration that the three witnesses are "simply one," are "one on all topics and issues," or "are the same person." (Or any other thought.) It just declares their agreement on what is stated. I can understand that.

Now other verses say more comprehensive things about the oneness of the Father, Son, and Spirit — all three together and in groups of two. And there is much in some of those verses that is not easy to understand. And when we try to push all of it together into a single doctrine of the nature of "One God" our understanding gets even more confused. In fact, at that point, it is pointless to try to figure it all out. There is something of the oneness of the Godhead that rises to the level of "One God," not just a triumvirate of three. Yet they are also three. In our limited perspective, it does not compute. Yet it is not a contradiction — just lacking information and understanding to overcome the limitations of our poor minds and sphere of understanding.
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Old 01-11-2020, 12:46 PM   #29
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Default Re: Christ Becoming The Live-Giving Spirit

Exactly! I've thought that too (re your 1st paragraph), but there is certainly much more to it.
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