Practically engaged to an LCer

[jmar]

I'm practically engaged to an LCer. We've been talking about getting married, and lately I've discussed what Sundays and the Christian life would look like after we are married and living together. I really care about this girl, and she would make a really great life long companion because she has qualities I don't see in women of my generation (she's from China, I'm from the US). Everything is good except for our differences in faith. I attend a non-denominational church that's pretty open-minded and warmly welcomes everyone, whereas she attends the LC, which feels like an insider's club. I have expressed my concerns to her, and she simply does not see what I see.

She also has issues with my church, so I suggested we start attending a new church that neither one of us have been to. She suggests the LC is her "life supply", and I keep thinking to myself that her faith is so weak if it depends solely on the LC. We listened to a few episodes of a study by Francis Chan, and I mentioned there were some discussion questions we could go over. She said she's only comfortable answering the questions which she already knows the answer to. What's the point then? She said she can't answer open ended questions because she doesn't have the confidence that she'll answer it "right".

I tried to get her to read "Praise Habit" by David Crowder, but she "forgot" it last night before she left my house. I'm trying to introduce material other than the same old recycled stuff from the LC. Might try some John Piper too. She prefers reading out loud with others and linking the old testament to the new, but I prefer reading to myself or having some topic/discussion driven reading. I've read a lot of content in the morning revival that's erroneous in that it attempts to link some old testament verses to Jesus, but I just don't see it.

I will never be able to get used to the LC, and I'm not sure whether or not she'll be able to get used to anything else. The same attitude prevails from every LCer I've encountered: they think they're right and the legitimate church and everyone else is not right. I have been away from this type of church for so long that it's weird to me for people to behave this way. My girlfriend denies that she feels this way, and I believe her. My weakness is that I'm not much of a reader, theologian, etc. I enjoy spirituality through music quite heavily and also by showing love to all people, though sometimes reading is ok. She doesn't really care for music at all in the spiritual sense. What should I do? Am I on the right track?

[Nell]

Since you asked, I’ll be blunt.

What should you do? Walk away.
Are you on the right track? No.

You’re in “like”. You haven’t given very good reasons to marry her. Instead, you have stated very serious reasons not to marry her. When she says the church is her “life supply”, believe her. Can you compete with that for the rest of your life?

I knew a couple who married in the church. After a few years, he loved her more than he loved the church, but she loved the church more than she loved him. It was her “life supply”. She couldn’t live without “the saints”, but she could live without him. She “fellowshiped” with an elder who advised her to divorce him. She did. Multiply this story several hundred/thousand times.

What should you do? Walk away.
Are you on the right track? No.

..

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

What should you do? Walk away.
Are you on the right track? No...

Strong amen here. The LC practices a pervasive mind-control programme. This potential counterpart may be physically attractive and as pleasant and genial a match as one could ask for.

Yet, their mind is not their own. And guess what? The heart and soul and body will follow the captured mind. And anyone joined to such a person will have to deal with the consequences of this fact, not temporarily, but permanently. Too many people have entered into ill-fitting union, naively believing that love will cover all, and/or the partner will somehow magically change.

Don't bet your life on such wishful thinking.

[jmar]

Thanks for the feedback. She's not been a Christian for too long, but her first experience was in the LC in grad school. I'm not exactly sure how their program reaches people because US college students would not respond to it. To me there is nothing at all attractive about it. Anyway, I don't feel the need to compete with the LC since I'm happy with my church group and with my own life.

The issue would come later when we have kids, which has me concerned. She has told me she doesn't care where our kids go to church when they're young, but she would like them to attend the FTTA when they are older. What she doesn't realize is that my church is busting at the seams with kids and young people, and once my kids set foot inside the doors of my church they will probably not want to leave it. Regardless, I have expressed my concerns to her that we need to think about this before getting married. I may try to keep working on her and delay the marriage until she gives up or gives in. I already have a child from my previous marriage, so I am content with a sense of family already. Surprisingly my GF has not disappeared during Christmas and has spent time with me and my family.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

I'm practically engaged to an LCer. We've been talking about getting married....

Clearly don't do it. I know how spellbinding those Chinese girls can be. I married one.

Even if you join the local church it won't work. Neither will last.

Breaking it off now might hurt. But not as much as later up the road if you marry her.

If you fell for a girl that's in Scientology, would it be smart to marry her?

Sorry brother. Wrong sister. There's plenty of fish in the sea. Just stay away from women that are in a cult. For what it's worth, that's my best advice.

Many blessings.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Clearly don't do it. I know how spellbinding those Chinese girls can be. I married one.

Thanks dude. I'd never join the LC or anything I deem "weird". It's really easy to speak of breaking off the relationship, but in reality it is really hard to do. I believe there is hope that anyone, even her, to leave the LC. I live nearly an hour from the nearest LC, and if we married she would move in with me. She mentioned driving each week, but I don't think it would last long or maybe she would only go sometimes. We'll have a few days to discuss some things over the holidays, so we'll see how it goes.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

Thanks dude. I'd never join the LC or anything I deem "weird". It's really easy to speak of breaking off the relationship, but in reality it is really hard to do. I believe there is hope that anyone, even her, to leave the LC. I live nearly an hour from the nearest LC, and if we married she would move in with me. She mentioned driving each week, but I don't think it would last long or maybe she would only go sometimes. We'll have a few days to discuss some things over the holidays, so we'll see how it goes.

Good luck with that. I take it you're in love. I hope it works out. But will she be happy? If she ain't happy ain't nobody gonna be happy.

But it might happen if she stops going, after awhile, looking at it from the outside, she'll find happiness that she got free. Let's hope.

[HERn]

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart. One other source of information would be to ask if any of her LC friends or elders have offered her comments on her romance with you. Sorry for the bad news on Christmas Eve!

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good luck with that. I take it you're in love. I hope it works out. But will she be happy? If she ain't happy ain't nobody gonna be happy.

But it might happen if she stops going, after awhile, looking at it from the outside, she'll find happiness that she got free. Let's hope.

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by HERn

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart. One other source of information would be to ask if any of her LC friends or elders have offered her comments on her romance with you. Sorry for the bad news on Christmas Eve!

She visited her old friend (an older motherly type) in Nevada earlier this month, and she seems to have gotten "recharged" from it. I told her to ask her friend about us getting married, and her friend can tell she's happy and thinks it's a good idea, surprisingly. She said her friend put her opinions aside and told my GF to keep "enjoying the Lord". Every time I hear something vague like this it drives me nuts...lol. My GF told me it makes her uncomfortable that I have so many opinions about "the church life". She's very much a feeler and I'm a thinker. She tells me I should put my thoughts and opinions aside and "enjoy the Lord" or "use my spirit". It's really easy for a feeling type to be ok with this. I tell her the Lord gave me a mind and made me a thinker, so I'm going to use it...lol.

She has one other friend in "the church life" whom she has shared all of this with, and both of her friends are praying for us. I'm not sure exactly what kind of prayers those are, but I have my friends praying for us too.

I've got my daughter this Christmas, and it means the world, despite the weird GF situation. A lot of people thought we wouldn't work out due to cultural differences, but it may come down to faith group differences. Never thought I'd be in this situation.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

Let's hope if y'all do marry that she doesn't put the local church before you. That will eventually become a problem if that happens.

But it sounds like y'all are being sensible, and talking about it. Is she in love with you?

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

Let's hope if y'all do marry that she doesn't put the local church before you. That will eventually become a problem if that happens.

But it sounds like y'all are being sensible, and talking about it. Is she in love with you?

Oh yes, we are really in love with each other. I live in the boonies, and she's willing to move here. She'll be about 50 minutes from the nearest Chinese grocery and 50 minutes from the nearest LC. It's a big sacrifice for her, but she knows I would not be happy living closer to the city.

[awareness]

If both of you are in love it will work. My marriage was arranged in the LC. There was no romantic love. It didn't work. We hardly knew each other.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by awareness

If both of you are in love it will work. My marriage was arranged in the LC. There was no romantic love. It didn't work. We hardly knew each other.

Wow, I didn't realize marriages were arranged in the LC. There was a time in the summer I visited and there was a young couple getting married. They didn't even seem to "go" together very well. They were having the ceremony at the "meeting hall", which is something my GF never mentioned (I suppose because it would not be allowed since I'm not in the club). The place seems entirely archaic to me. I don't see how or why anyone who grew up in the west would find it attractive; even after knowing her and the LC for about a year and a half it still boggles my mind.

[aron]

Originally Posted by jmar

I don't see how or why anyone who grew up in the west would find it attractive.

When I was there the main source of new members was recent Chinese immigrants. So we were told to go after Caucasians. I think the Asian mind-set is less uncomfortable with the highly regimented demeanor of the group.

In my case, I was casting about for stability and got it in spades. I chose to ignore the obvious red flags, such as only one author used for teaching, and whispers of "storms" and "rebellion" and "turmoil". I simply lacked the critical apparatus to sort through the warm fuzzies that I as a newbie was getting.

Long story short, people want to belong somewhere. We are social animals.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

Might try this. If she is willing to read along with you some discussions on this site there may be hope. If she refuses I see no hope for a happy marriage and after some time you may be in a potential third marriage situation. The elders in the LC have no problem recommending sisters divorce an opposing or non-LC husband. In romance it may be best to think with your head as well as with your heart.

The problem is, people don't want to spoil the romance with hard-headed questions. Then they spend the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't have them, first. I'd write down my questions, hand them to her, and say that you have some questions about this group; she can take her time and consider them.

Start out by affirming the common faith. Then politely and respectfully point out your concerns.

Example: I notice that this group follows one Bible teacher, Witness Lee. But his predecessor Watchman Nee had a library of 3,000 books! Clearly he was able to draw from multiple sources - why have things changed so drastically?

Or, I notice that Watchman Nee learned from female authors and teachers, such as Jessie Penn-Lewis and Madame Guyon, and was trained by a woman named Margaret Barber, and had female 'senior co-workers' like Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Why is it that women in the LC today have no such venues for spiritual labor and expression?

Tell her, "Please carefully think about these things, and try to answer them, because I'm having these kinds of questions and if you love me it should matter to you."

Be thorough and be careful. She'll be impressed that you care enough to be clear, and will try to engage (hopefully). Tell her, this is a conversation between you and I. Try to think about these questions. I'll be glad to talk them over with you.

She will try to flee to the "elders" with their pat answers. Tell her, yes we can go to the senior ones, but right now you and I are having a conversation. Let's figure out what we can here and now, then go to others for help if we get stuck.

She says she loves you. I think you will find out real quick if she loves you or is just playing you.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by aron

The problem is, people don't want to spoil the romance with hard-headed questions. Then they spend the rest of their lives regretting that they didn't have them, first. I'd write down my questions, hand them to her, and say that you have some questions about this group; she can take her time and consider them.

Start out by affirming the common faith. Then politely and respectfully point out your concerns.

Example: I notice that this group follows one Bible teacher, Witness Lee. But his predecessor Watchman Nee had a library of 3,000 books! Clearly he was able to draw from multiple sources - why have things changed so drastically?

Or, I notice that Watchman Nee learned from female authors and teachers, such as Jessie Penn-Lewis and Madame Guyon, and was trained by a woman named Margaret Barber, and had female 'senior co-workers' like Ruth Lee and Peace Wang. Why is it that women in the LC today have no such venues for spiritual labor and expression?

Tell her, "Please carefully think about these things, and try to answer them, because I'm having these kinds of questions and if you love me it should matter to you."

Be thorough and be careful. She'll be impressed that you care enough to be clear, and will try to engage (hopefully). Tell her, this is a conversation between you and I. Try to think about these questions. I'll be glad to talk them over with you.

She will try to flee to the "elders" with their pat answers. Tell her, yes we can go to the senior ones, but right now you and I are having a conversation. Let's figure out what we can here and now, then go to others for help if we get stuck.

She says she loves you. I think you will find out real quick if she loves you or is just playing you.

I've mentioned verbally a lot of my concerns like this, especially regarding the one source of information (from Lee and Nee, recovery version, etc). I also told her I see her church at a "Living Stream Church" and consider it as a denomination, despite them denying the existence of a denomination. Should I write down any previously mentioned concerns or only new ones? I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. I would have liked discussing it within the past few days but decided to put it off so I could enjoy the holidays.

[aron]

Originally Posted by jmar

Should I write down any previously mentioned concerns or only new ones? I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. .

If she has responded, then you don't have to repeat it. If she doesn't respond then repeat it.

Be polite, be caring and engaging and always be respectful! (One of my worst points, I know - but I do apologize for it). But be insistent; you have concerns and want to address them.

If she gets flustered tell her, Take your time and think it over. If she just refuses to engage on any level, then you have a good indication of where she is with the group, and with you.

The main point is, this is a group uncomfortable with questions; people with questions are labeled 'negative'. But your GF may be the exception. There is only one way to find out.

[jmar]

She has already told me that she didn't like me having a lot of "opinions" about her church group, but she did listen to my concerns. I didn't get much feedback, but I guess at least she listened.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jmar

I've mentioned verbally a lot of my concerns like this, especially regarding the one source of information (from Lee and Nee, recovery version, etc). I also told her I see her church at a "Living Stream Church" and consider it as a denomination, despite them denying the existence of a denomination. Should I write down any previously mentioned concerns or only new ones? I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. I would have liked discussing it within the past few days but decided to put it off so I could enjoy the holidays.

I really don't want to say much of anything since marriage is such a high stake and there are so many nuances that it's hard to be a "keyboard advisor" without knowing the situation personally, but the phrase I bolded above jumped out at me. I'm no trained professional in this area, but.....that doesn't seem like a solid foundation for any relationship, much less one that will likely be guaranteed to encounter disagreement over spiritual things.

If you are pretty content in case you don't work out....why marry that person? If facing a lifetime with them and you already feel you "don't have much to lose" if things go south....what substantive foundation are you committing to then?

Marriage will be difficult enough even without the LC issues you've mentioned. If you are already content not working out before you've gotten married, do you have enough to draw on when the inevitable difficulties come where you have to fight to in order to work out?

[jmar]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I really don't want to say much of anything since marriage is such a high stake and there are so many nuances that it's hard to be a "keyboard advisor" without knowing the situation personally, but the phrase I bolded above jumped out at me. I'm no trained professional in this area, but.....that doesn't seem like a solid foundation for any relationship, much less one that will likely be guaranteed to encounter disagreement over spiritual things.

If you are pretty content in case you don't work out....why marry that person? If facing a lifetime with them and you already feel you "don't have much to lose" if things go south....what substantive foundation are you committing to then?

Marriage will be difficult enough even without the LC issues you've mentioned. If you are already content not working out before you've gotten married, do you have enough to draw on when the inevitable difficulties come where you have to fight to in order to work out?

What I meant was that I consider myself "complete" in Christ. I'm not looking or depending on someone else to complete me. In addition, I already have a family (my child) and a house, which are things that newly married people are looking forward to creating together. I already have those things. If we end up not working out, I'd definitely lose out on a great open-minded person (minus LC issues) to spend my life with. Guess I was thinking what @awareness was saying...there are plenty of fish in the sea. Sometimes I'm not confident there are many good fish, but there are probably more than I realize. As far as marriage goes, I'm looking forward to working together as a team to build a better life together. We make a great team so far.

[aron]

Originally Posted by jmar

She has already told me that she didn't like me having a lot of "opinions" about her church group, but she did listen to my concerns. I didn't get much feedback, but I guess at least she listened.

Okay, so reboot. You don't have opinions or concerns, but have made some observations and have a couple of questions. Look at my two sample questions on Watchman Nee. Those are not opinions. The LSM biography says that he read 3,000 "spiritual classics". That is a fact. And it's a fact that for the past 10 years the LSM assemblies have been under "One Publication Policy". Question: why the disparity?

And it's a fact that he trained under Barber, and liberally used Penn-Lewis' writings as the basis for his own - if you read the forward to the second edition of Spiritual Man, the publisher had to admit as much.

Based on your observation of the facts, you now have some questions. Let her take her time and try to address them. This is a mind-control programme that doesn't like people to think critically. You are inviting her to do so. See which way she wants to go. I daresay then you'll have your answer from the Lord.

[aron]

I'll reboot - you are trying to have a conversation about something that is meaningful to you both. A conversation is a learning moment for each side - it is not a pair of by-passing monologues. You can try to be open, to learn, to probe... if she sees this she may respond in kind. "Do unto others.." right?

Suppose we have 2 parties, Mr X and Mr Y.

X: "I notice that this group of yours gathers a lot and studies the Bible. From a Christian perspective, this seems good. But if the greatest commandment in the Bible is to love one another, I wonder how this commandment can be fulfilled."

Y: "All the people are separated from God by sin, division, and confusion, and we have come to set the world straight concerning the truth of God's eternal economy to dispense the Godhead into man and make man the same as God in life and nature."

X: OK, but how is this love?"

Y: "God's love is included in God."

X: "Jesus went around doing good, healing people. There was actual manifestations of God's love. Pardon me my observation, but all I see are teachings."

Y: "Yes, but we are warned against natural soulish love. In type, it is honey that ruins the unleavened bread."

X: "So those are our only two options, then? Natural affections and teachings? Again, I point to Jesus. He actually did good things for people."

Y: " We don't want to focus on 'dead works'; knowing that salvation is based on faith."

X: "But faith in what? On teachings and theologies? Where is the love?"

Y: "But we do love one another. We gather together in love and declare the love of the Father in our hearts."

X: "The love of the Father calls us out of our chairs and into the world, to show this love - "Love to the loveless shown" and all that. "Bless those who curse you". How does a meeting to study the Bible, in and of itself, show anything near this?"
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As long as at least one party is open and seeking, God can come. So just be that party. Seek God in the conversation. Be willing to learn. God may surprise you. Present your questions as genuine learning opportunities for both of you.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by aron

I'll reboot - you are trying to have a conversation about something that is meaningful to you both. A conversation is a learning moment for each side - it is not a pair of by-passing monologues. You can try to be open, to learn, to probe... if she sees this she may respond in kind. "Do unto others.." right?

Suppose we have 2 parties, Mr X and Mr Y.

X: "I notice that this group of yours gathers a lot and studies the Bible. From a Christian perspective, this seems good. But if the greatest commandment in the Bible is to love one another, I wonder how this commandment can be fulfilled."

Y: "All the people are separated from God by sin, division, and confusion, and we have come to set the world straight concerning the truth of God's eternal economy to dispense the Godhead into man and make man the same as God in life and nature."

X: OK, but how is this love?"

Y: "God's love is included in God."

X: "Jesus went around doing good, healing people. There was actual manifestations of God's love. Pardon me my observation, but all I see are teachings."

Y: "Yes, but we are warned against natural soulish love. In type, it is honey that runs the unleavened bread."

X: "So those are our only two options, then? Natural affections and teachings? Again, I point to Jesus. He actually did good things for people."

Y: " We don't want to focus on 'dead works'; knowing that salvation is based on faith."

X: "But faith in what? On teachings and theologies? Where is the love?"

Y: "But we do love one another. We gather together in love and declare the love of the Father in our hearts."

X: "The love of the Father calls us out of our chairs and into the world, to show this love - "Love to the loveless shown" and all that. "Bless those who curse you". How does a meeting to study the Bible, in and of itself, show anything near this?"
÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷÷
As long as at least one party is open and seeking, God can come. So just be that party. Seek God in the conversation. Be willing to learn. God may surprise you. Present your questions as genuine learning opportunities for both of you.

Man, you could not have pointed out more clearly the issues I have with them. I will try my best, though I am not too good with dialog and words. I think I can succeed if I keep my focus on what Jesus did like loving others and being there for people, even the ones who didn't like him. It actually reminds me of a book I heard of but haven't read..."Love Does" by Bob Goff

[aron]

(Continued..)

Mr X: "God shows his love to us by sending His Son. His Son shows his love for us by laying down his life on our behalf. I could quote you verses but they're already well-known. Now, how is a gathering-together (ekklesia) with an obsessive focus on one man's ministry a continuation of that out-poured love?"

Mr Y: "We gather in His name and celebrate his out-poured love, on the ground of oneness, in His revealed economy."

Mr X: "Okay, fine, but where's the issue, besides meetings, meetings, meetings, again with the rigid fixation on one person's teachings? The only outreach that I see is to recruit others to the meetings meetings meetings. Where's the giving to those who cannot repay you in this age? That is the command of the Saviour, and is the logical extension of the first two expressions of love that I cited earlier, that of the Father and the Son."

Mr Y: "We have a different focus - our view is to release the truth for the building of the Body and the consummation of the age."

Mr X: "The continuation of the flow of love, seen in our behaviours toward others unlike ourselves, is the building and the consummation. Not interminable meetings."

Now, notice that at the end, Mr. X has indeed expressed an opinion. But I daresay Mr. Y was expressing the opinion of a publishing house in Anaheim, California.
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But still, we can try to have a conversation with "the other", who's really an extension of our lost "self". Only in being open to the other, do we find the way home. "What you do to the least of these, you do to me". So we try to have a discussion. We try to remain in the light, that reveals God's love towards us in His Son Jesus Christ.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by jmar

... I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out. I would have liked discussing it within the past few days but decided to put it off so I could enjoy the holidays.

Jmar--

Your definition of marriage is more secular than biblical. Society has an "escape clause" but biblically marriage is until "death do you part". "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder." This "no man" includes you.

Secular contracts are written and rewritten by men, even the US Supreme Court, who are influenced by the culture of the day. Contracts can easily be broken "when things don't work out", especially when you enter into the contract with nothing to lose.

It appears you have chosen a secular marriage where the only thing that binds you two together is paperwork. Her commitment to the Local Church is not your biggest issue.

Matthew 19:3-8 New International Version (NIV)
3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”
4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’[b]? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.


Something else to think about...

.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jmar

I'm getting more comfortable mentioning these things in person because I realize I don't have much to lose, and I'm pretty content with myself in case we don't work out.

Originally Posted by Nell

Jmar--

Your definition of marriage is more secular than biblical. Society has an "escape clause" but biblically marriage is until "death do you part". "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder." This "no man" includes you.

I read that comment of jmar and I got the impression he was referring not to the institution of marriage, but an honest evaluation of his courtship. Thus his discussion on this forum.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I read that comment of jmar and I got the impression he was referring not to the institution of marriage, but an honest evaluation of his courtship. .

That was my reading as well.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I read that comment of jmar and I got the impression he was referring not to the institution of marriage, but an honest evaluation of his courtship. Thus his discussion on this forum.

Yeah, you are right Ohio. What I meant was that I don't feel like I need to be with her because I'm not fully committed yet. If we marry I would never be accepting of divorce, so that's why I decided to post here in hopes that I can avoid hardship later. I never wanted divorce in my first marriage, but she did, and I may never completely understand why. Sadly, it only takes one to want divorce whereas it takes two for marriage.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jmar

Yeah, you are right Ohio. What I meant was that I don't feel like I need to be with her because I'm not fully committed yet. If we marry I would never be accepting of divorce, so that's why I decided to post here in hopes that I can avoid hardship later. I never wanted divorce in my first marriage, but she did, and I may never completely understand why. Sadly, it only takes one to want divorce whereas it takes two for marriage.

Despite the "vast online ministry" of LSM, there is next to nothing when it comes to counseling for engaged couples. In fact, it was not until after I left the program in 2005 that I realized their vast shortage of mature counsel. Those who were qualified over the years have been mostly expelled, and those who remain are basically held inside the confines of a dead man's books.

[Nell]

Speaking as a woman, I could anticipate that she may understand you to mean exactly what you said. Aron, Ohio and your explanation won't mean much to a woman in love.

Not having "much to lose" means losing her will not be a big deal to you "in case you don't work out." If the man I was practically engaged to said these words to me, or wrote them on a public forum, I would be devastated. These comments in any context are hurtful. If I'm right, she won't be able to get these words out of her head. EVER, and no explanation is possible.

But that's just me...
Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

..your explanation won't mean much to a woman in love.

But is she really in love or just stringing some poor sap along, that's the question. If she becomes unhappy when her BF has an opinion, that may indicate that her mind's controlled by an outside force which sees opinions as threats; a force quite antagonistic to the freedom we have in Christ Jesus (cf Gal. 2:4).

And if this is so, where's her heart? Available for love, or already taken? Some may find such questions to be devastating to romantic notions but at this juncture they may be quite necessary if the romance is to endure, and grow.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Speaking as a woman, I could anticipate that she may understand you to mean exactly what you said. Aron, Ohio and your explanation won't mean much to a woman in love.

Not having "much to lose" means losing her will not be a big deal to you "in case you don't work out." If the man I was practically engaged to said these words to me, or wrote them on a public forum, I would be devastated. These comments in any context are hurtful. If I'm right, she won't be able to get these words out of her head. EVER, and no explanation is possible.

But that's just me...
Nell

Good marriage counselors do ask these tough, thought-provoking questions, and the right time to ask is *before* marriage. And btw, this is, by definition, the true meaning and value of the courtship.

Otherwise, why not get married after the first kiss? Isn't the cross of Christ adequate for every marital problem? Kiss her today, marry her tomorrow, and live happily ever after. Sounds like a Hallmark Movie.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

.. is she really in love or just stringing some poor sap along, that's the question..

In Christian context, love isn't a temporarily overwhelming rush of affections and attractions; it's a consistent set of behaviours, clearly shown. Paul went into this in detail in 1 Cor 13. Romans 5:8 says that God first of all demonstrated (clearly showed) love in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Similarly, the gospels say there's no greater love than this, that a Man laid down his life for his friends, and that Jesus "loved them to the uttermost".

Love flows beyond its borders. It gives when there's no return offered. It doesn't require reciprocity. When it's struck by hatred it yields, and when it's cursed it blesses. Yet it's undeniably active, and demonstrated: on Pentecost Peter said, "That which you see and hear I now will declare (explain) to you". The church can't hold it in and it streams into the world, unbidden.

But I stress that it doesn't seek reciprocity on earth. It doesn't require a return. The return is in heaven; on earth it's content to be "wasted", and spent.

Now contrast this to the earthly ways, who in their anxiety seek a return. Luke 6:34 "And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full." Love is not like that. It senses and seeks that which is above, and expresses itself through "that which is not", which fades away.

There's a story in Eusebius' Church History, in which the grandsons of Jude, named Zoker and James, are summoned before Domitian, who fears a return of the Davidic line. He asks of the kingdom they represent, and they reply that it isn't temporal or earthly, but rather heavenly and angelic. These were dirt farmers with calloused hands, not soft men with palace intrigues. They were truly "looking above, where Jesus is."

Love doesn't manipulate and control for temporal and selfish (earthly) ends. If you're in a relationship with an LCer where they don't give the freedom to express yourself, to hold independent thoughts and opinions, I wonder if they can truly love, or if they're caught in a thought-suppression system, and are fronting someone else's displaced anxieties.

With the FTTA, we were told unequivocally, "don't waste your time" with those who can't repay you in this age; instead go after the "good building material", the middle-class Caucasian college students. So I left, because there was no love. At the time there was no internet and I didn't know of Daystar and other Lee family scandals; furthermore I thought the doctrines were all first-rate. But they clearly didn't care about people, but rather about using people to build a system.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by jmar

Wow, I didn't realize marriages were arranged in the LC. There was a time in the summer I visited and there was a young couple getting married. They didn't even seem to "go" together very well. They were having the ceremony at the "meeting hall", which is something my GF never mentioned (I suppose because it would not be allowed since I'm not in the club). The place seems entirely archaic to me. I don't see how or why anyone who grew up in the west would find it attractive; even after knowing her and the LC for about a year and a half it still boggles my mind.

If she loves you she'll eventually let it go.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Long story short, people want to belong somewhere. We are social animals.

Basically it's a club, of the exclusive sort, with highfalutin notions about itself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

There's a story in Eusebius' Church History, in which the grandsons of Jude, named Zoker and James, are summoned before Domitian, who fears a return of the Davidic line. He asks of the kingdom they represent, and they reply that it isn't temporal or earthly, but rather heavenly and angelic. These were dirt farmers with calloused hands, not soft men with palace intrigues. They were truly "looking above, where Jesus is."

But they clearly didn't care about people, but rather about using people to build a system.

We in the Midwest LC's found that out the hard way, but thank the Lord we did. Once people are used to build your system, the benefits of faith, love, and prayer are soon discarded, and fleshly leaders learn to use courts and money and books and buildings to build their "empire."

Great story about James' progeny, aron. Concerning Caesar Domitian, Eusebius says he despised these two dirt farmers as simpletons, threw them out from his presence, and then ordered the persecution of Christians to cease. Just incredible! These farmers then went on to be church leaders.

Soon Domitian's rule ended and the banishment of Apostle John ended. He then returned from the island of Patmos to his home in Ephesus, writing what he had seen and heard.

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by jmar

She said after we get married that I can go to my church and she can go to hers. We are both perfectly fine with that. The problem comes when we have kids. I really don't like the thought of my kids getting indoctrinated with LC stuff, though I am confident that if my kids ever set foot inside my church they will not want to go anywhere else.

You both may be perfectly fine with that arrangement, however, this is NOT how it should be in a Christian marriage. A married couple should not worship and fellowship separately. And when kids come along, that will only complicate matters further.

Take it from someone who is married to an active LC member. My husband and I have been married for over 22 years, and when he started attending this church approximately 8 years ago, my marriage became a nightmare! We have NEVER been on the brink of divorce but for the last 8 years, precisely when he started attending this brain-washing cult!! BEWARE! Although there is nothing impossible for our Lord Jesus, the haughtiness and pride of these members blinds them to ANYTHING OR ANYONE outside this heretical ministry. Tread very carefully and PRAY!!!

[awareness]

I hate to bring this up, but I've seen it before, even right here in Kentucky, not LC related, but given the gravity of this decision, bro jmar needs to consider all possibilities.

I know according to jmar this sister is a very sweet girl. But there's a possibility that she has ideas in her mind that she will eventually covert him.

The LC certainly believe that they are better than any church jmar can go to. If the sister is very suggestible, she may be being used for a LC type of Flirty Fishing.

My marriage was manipulated in such a way. The purpose wasn't conversion, we were both already in the LC, but to recruit young people to the c. in Detroit, where Kangas (now the replacement, or oracle, of Witness Lee 'as The Minister of the Age') was the lead.

Be careful bro jmar. Listen to boughtbyJesus, who is going thru it right now. Marriage is a long time commitment. It can be good, and go bad, and the commitment means you have to hang in there even if it becomes a living hell. I wouldn't wish a bad marriage on anyone.

[byHismercy]

I am not suggesting jmar do this, but I am pretty sure if he were to march up to his fiances' meeting hall and have a sit down with the elders of her locality, and if he were completely frank about any issues or errors in doctrine, or any problems he sees in the ministry, he might find the decision out of his hands. At the least, he would find out if she were devoted to him or her LC. I am positive they would do their very best to 'poison' her against jmar if they sensed danger of his 'negative' influence.

When I was a young person in the LC, various sisters were sent to me to influence me to break up with a boyfriend, and when that happened organically, later I got a talking to about the man I was about to marry. (Meaning they felt very strongly that I shouldnt yoke myself to him, and was counciled strongly against it.) I wonder, now, how I was so blind to such weird intrusions....how I trusted in this ministry for so long.

And yes, jmar, arranged marriages abound in the LC. I can recall three young sisters my age who were coming through the FTTA who went from single to giddily engaged to be married overnight.

Come to think of it, I always thought it was so strange that so many devout older sisters I knew were divorced. I am committed to my unbelieving spouse forever because I will obey Gods word on the matter. Now I wonder how many divorces I knew of in the LC had everything to do with the cultish practice of LC elders meddling in 'unequally yolked' partnerships.

I wouldn't want to be in your place, jmar. We wives are to revere our husbands and he is the head of the marriage, as Christ is head of the church! That is a solemn command! You would be in the right to fully expect her to follow you in all ways, and the church, fellowship, worship, etc. If you came to the point of wanting her to take her submissive position, but she refused.....what would then happen? You ought to know that human love and close human relationships are looked upon as fleshly, therefore of Satan!! in the Lee ministry. That is how myself and my dear children came to be coldly discarded by saints we thought loved us. It was very painful. I so fear this becoming a stumbling block for my little ones some day....

byHismercy

[jmar]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I have emailed her my concerns with the LC, so let's see what she says about it. I'm really thankful for your supportiveness.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

if he were to march up to his fiances' meeting hall and have a sit down with the elders of her locality, and if he were completely frank about any issues or errors in doctrine, or any problems he sees in the ministry, he might find the decision out of his hands.
byHismercy

It would be a very cold day in Anaheim before an LC elder would give his blessings on a marriage between a sister absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee to a non-LC opposing brother, no matter how much the brother loved the Lord.

[countmeworthy]

If she is so "absolute", why is she dating a non LCr in the first place!!

[Drake]

Originally Posted by jmar

She also has issues with my church, so I suggested we start attending a new church that neither one of us have been to. She suggests the LC is her "life supply", and I keep thinking to myself that her faith is so weak if it depends solely on the LC...

jmar,

I agree with Nell's sentiment in #2... but perhaps for different reasons.

I'll also be frank as she was... your considerations and that of your potential fiance (just based on what you write here in this forum) seems to lack a fundamental element in the relationship. Love. Mutual love. Not just like... but love. Call me old fashioned.

Yet, even if you assess that you love her and she loves you, the way you are conducting yourself seems to be less than forthcoming.... I won't say manipulative because I can't read your heart.... but you're trying to change her by steering a little this way and some veering that way.... and yet she has already told you where her heart is. That is not how you want to start a life long relationship. And your proposal to attend a third church that neither of you currently attend did not honor her convictions and showed no conviction on your part for where you are currently attending! Why would she leave what she believes about so strongly.... for something that you don't really care about or another anon place that you know nothing about yourself?

I think if you really love this girl, you should be prepared to accept her priorities BEFORE you marry her else you will end up in a world of hurt as Nell rightly forecasts. If you have concerns and you love and care about her you will work through those upfront and then decide whether a life union if right for both of you. As it stands, it appears you are on the wrong track.

I wish you well.

Drake

[Ohio]

I find it troubling that jmar would come to this forum seeking help for one of life's most important decisions, and then Drake would question whether jmar actually loved the girl he was almost engaged to. He then challenges jmar for not conducting himself in a forthcoming manner, questioning his convictions. If the LC's did not have such a poor track record with failed marriages, I might have remained silent here.

I believe that the matter of *convictions* is exactly what jmar and his GF need to have honest discussions about. That is why he came here to research his GF's church. I and others have commended him for reaching out to others.

jmar needs to know prior to his marriage whether she is committed to the Lord and to her future husband, or whether she is merely committed to a church with questionable ties to a Publishing House in Anaheim. Every healthy courtship demands answers like these to life's challenges, and the courtship is the right time to discover these answers -- not after they are married.

Call me old fashioned, but I do believe marriage is perhaps our most serious decision in life next to our faith, and should be preceded with much prayer and many discussions with a future spouse about serious matters of their relationship. Marriage in the 21st century is already bombarded with endless attacks, and finding a like-minded mate can reduce these challenges.

[jmar]

After lots of praying and speaking with my counselor, I have decided to proceed with our relationship. She is dedicated to me and to the Lord and is not so "bound" to the LC as others are. There have been times when others have stated their opinions or suggested someone within the church for her to date, but she ignores their attempts. It doesn't seem to bother her if she misses a Sunday or meeting, and she never expects me to attend with her. There have been numerous times when we've been together, and she's chosen to stay with me rather than go to a meeting. She always listens to my spiritual perspective, even if it has a different ring to it from what she's used to. She thinks people should wear whatever they want to the meetings and that dressing up isn't at all necessary. There's no doubt that she's dedicated to me. When I first posted here I was hung on the differences between our churches, and I ignored our relationship with each other and with the Lord. She was never hung up on it like I was. I realized it was getting in the way of our relationship, so I had to pray that God would give me the strength to get through this and then I realized I need to let go of my right to understand. Sometimes I have a hard time with that (maybe I am just getting set in my ways). We have prayed a lot together, and those times are really sweet and powerful.

Some of you have given your opinion of our relationship based on what little I wrote here. That's fine, but it appears that a lot has been ASS-U-ME-d I kept things brief as to not go down any rabbit holes and to not share too many personal things.

Thanks everyone for your feedback!

[awareness]

Congratulation brother. All the happiness in the world for you and her. Love never fails.

Originally Posted by jmar

I'm practically engaged to an LCer. We've been talking about getting married, and lately I've discussed what Sundays and the Christian life would look like after we are married and living together. I really care about this girl, and she would make a really great life long companion because she has qualities I don't see in women of my generation (she's from China, I'm from the US). Everything is good except for our differences in faith. I attend a non-denominational church that's pretty open-minded and warmly welcomes everyone, whereas she attends the LC, which feels like an insider's club. I have expressed my concerns to her, and she simply does not see what I see.

Brother, please don't do follow through unless this women breaks her yoke with the LC completely. I'm certain much unnecessary pain will follow otherwise for you.

[Sons to Glory!]

I want to comment about whether or not you gather with the LCers occasionally. They are just another group of believers. Every gathering has its own things of the flesh that they cling to, and the LC is no different. Many (if not all) gatherings have this or that they think is superior, that is why we all tend to gather unto our own - a birds of a feather (flocking together) thing. The ekklesia, in spirit is not this way, but it's natural for ol' Adam to do this.

I have no resistance to going to or fellowshiping with any Christian or group within this parameter: that they have Christ in them and there is not gross manifested sin. I participate with eyes wide open, but seek to abide in the gentle Spirit of the Lamb. There must be strength in spirit to not be carried off with this or that (related to some "distraction" the group may be focused on), and instead to stay focused on Christ alone. And I also have become exercised to not judge others in the non-essential items of the faith (as bro Lee once taught). And in doing this, I have tasted the oneness in the body, no matter where I go!

So you have the freedom to attend the LC gatherings or any other, to enjoy Christ with them. I think it's a good exercise, and it took me some time to learn to feed on Christ in various gatherings and discard the rest. Just be like the Bereans and examine things you hear and see prayerfully and with the Word. You have the Anointing . . . also stay in close, open fellowship with some brothers who have no agenda other than knowing Christ.

(and yes, I do have my own "preference" to where I usually fellowship . . .)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So you have the freedom to attend the LC gatherings or any other, to enjoy Christ with them.

But wouldn't that be like enabling a alcoholic?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

But wouldn't that be like enabling a alcoholic?

LOL! We're all "alcoholics" metaphorically speaking - that's why we need Jesus. That is why it's said we should purpose to know nothing amongst each other, except Christ and Him crucified!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

LOL! We're all "alcoholics" metaphorically speaking - that's why we need Jesus. That is why it's said we should purpose to know nothing amongst each other, except Christ and Him crucified!

You are right bro StG. But ... the local church is not like other Christian groups you say you are meeting with. The local church is an addiction.

I appreciate that this brother and sister are compromising for the sake of their love and marriage. That's what makes marriage work. I appreciate the sisters willingness to skip meetings to be with him. That's a sign that she really loves him.

Let's hope for his sake, the sake of their coming marriage, and her sake, that her love for him overcomes her addiction to the LC.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

You are right bro StG. But ... the local church is not like other Christian groups you say you are meeting with. The local church is an addiction.

Hmmm?

You often make it sound like your local Southern Baptists were worse than the LC's.

Perhaps you too could use a little Jesus for your "addictions."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

You are right bro StG. But ... the local church is not like other Christian groups you say you are meeting with. The local church is an addiction.

I appreciate that this brother and sister are compromising for the sake of their love and marriage. That's what makes marriage work. I appreciate the sisters willingness to skip meetings to be with him. That's a sign that she really loves him.

Let's hope for his sake, the sake of their coming marriage, and her sake, that her love for him overcomes her addiction to the LC.

Amen to that! May they both got all strung-out together on Christ!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Amen to that! May they both got all strung-out together on Christ!

Amen to that. And as you pointed out, they can do that meeting in Christian communities that aren't the local church.

Addendum : Jesus Addicts? I love it. Over the years I covered lots of other grounds -- of different religions, philosophies, science, and mythologies -- and can't kick the habit. Jesus is latched onto me like a snapping turtle.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Amen to that. And as you pointed out, they can do that meeting in Christian communities that aren't the local church.

Addendum : Jesus Addicts? I love it. Over the years I covered lots of other grounds -- of different religions, philosophies, science, and mythologies -- and can't kick the habit. Jesus is latched onto me like a snapping turtle.

YES! "Like a snapping turtle!" So true . . . and thank God He doesn't let us go!!!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by jmar

After lots of praying and speaking with my counselor, I have decided to proceed with our relationship. She is dedicated to me and to the Lord and is not so "bound" to the LC as others are....

Quick question. Has she decided on the venue of the wedding, and the role her LC elders will play?

Best,
HERn

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

Quick question. Has she decided on the venue of the wedding, and the role her LC elders will play?

Best,
HERn

Good question HERn. Two couples got married at my wedding. So families from both families came to our double wedding.

There wasn't any traditional marriage ceremonies. I wasn't in control, my marriage had been arranged by elders from two different localities.

So unbeknownst to me, it was determined beforehand, by the elders, to be a 'gospel' meeting, to try to win over family members attending the marriage of their children.

The families were aghast. I felt double-crossed, but I just got married, and had little choice but to let it slide.

Let's hope jmar doesn't allow himself to fall into something like that, and doesn't hold his wedding at the local church.

But it seems to me that jmar and his bride to be are being reasonable about this wedding. I hope it's showered with blessings.

[jmar]

Originally Posted by HERn

Quick question. Has she decided on the venue of the wedding, and the role her LC elders will play?

Best,
HERn

We're thinking to have a small ceremony with family and friends, and it won't be at the LC. We're not sure who will officiate yet, but my neighbor is one option (he's got the license or whatever it is).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by jmar

We're thinking to have a small ceremony with family and friends, and it won't be at the LC. We're not sure who will officiate yet, but my neighbor is one option (he's got the license or whatever it is).

The Lord bless you and keep you, and fill your marriage with all joy and peace!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by jmar

We're thinking to have a small ceremony with family and friends, and it won't be at the LC. We're not sure who will officiate yet, but my neighbor is one option (he's got the license or whatever it is).

For what it's worth this sounds very healthy to me. Do you feel safe inviting any of your pastors to help officiate?

[jmar]

Originally Posted by HERn

For what it's worth this sounds very healthy to me. Do you feel safe inviting any of your pastors to help officiate?

She has not mentioned anyone from the LC, and where I go there are several different ones. I don't know any of them on a personal level since it's a big church. She doesn't know too many people in the LC since she's only been going to that particular one for <2 years. A couple of guys from my men's group got married a couple of years ago. I will check with them.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Lord bless you and keep you, and fill your marriage with all joy and peace!

Amen to that ...

I'm surprised former LC members here are condoning your decision to marry an active member of Lee's Local Church knowing full well what this place is and how capable they are of influencing minds. Do you guys really wish to place such a load upon this young man's shoulders knowing what you know?

From what you say, she's been involved for 2 years with the LC and is at the point where she insists your future children attend the FTT. It's clear that she is already indoctrinated and hooked in their system of control contrary to what you are trying to pass off.

Jmar, whether you realize it or not, you are marrying her convictions and beliefs . Thinking it'll be an easy task to pull her out after marriage in being naive. I mean that's the end goal, right? No one can tell you to marry or not to marry this women but as it was suggested, test things now while you have the opportunity. If she's willing to leave before tying the knot, then great, if not well then you'll know full well what you're signing up for without excuse.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by jmar

She has not mentioned anyone from the LC, and where I go there are several different ones. I don't know any of them on a personal level since it's a big church. She doesn't know too many people in the LC since she's only been going to that particular one for <2 years. A couple of guys from my men's group got married a couple of years ago. I will check with them.

I'm in a men's group as well. We have read and discussed several books, the latest was "Men of Courage" by Dr. Larry Crabb. If possible it might be good to continue your men's group after getting married. The prayers and testimonies of other brothers might be encouraging. Also, it might be good if your new wife could get into a women's group, or both of you could get into a couples group? It might be good for both of you to have a simple morning devotion together like "Our Daily Bread" where you can talk and pray together over scripture and a short devotional passage.

Here's a link. https://secure.ourdailybread.org/odb/signup/#start

[jmar]

She's only interested in attending the LC home meetings as far as I know. I couldn't see us attending LC home meeting, men's group meeting, and another couple's meeting. I have hoped there could be some spiritual things we could share together, but to be honest I am not the best when it comes to reading every day. I could try daily bread again. I tried it back in college but got bored of it. I felt the devotionals were too short. My men's group fizzled out, but I'm planning to get into another one.