Hubris

[Chris Fleming]

In some messages past, Mr Kangas has told the story about a group of sisters long ago in Anaheim who apparently made quite a show of themselves. Believed themselves to be above everyone else and ever wrote a book dedicated to "those who are alive and remain", implying that they will be raptured away and will leave their book to help everyone else.

I've heard it said explicitly in messages as well as to my face by some elders that they believe people will be reading LSM Life Studies during the great tribulation. Not only this, I was told that Witness Lee spoke on this and went even further (this was not recorded in the Life Study). He believed that when the Bible says the woman will be nourished in the wilderness, he took that to literally mean that Christians going through the great tribulation will be nourished by his Life Studies. People from LSM by implication are obviously not there and have been whisked away.

So what's the difference?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

In some messages past, Mr Kangas has told the story about a group of sisters long ago in Anaheim who apparently made quite a show of themselves. Believed themselves to be above everyone else and ever wrote a book dedicated to "those who are alive and remain", implying that they will be raptured away and will leave their book to help everyone else.

I wonder when it was he last read the bible. Those who are alive & remain are not remaining . DUH.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yeah... I know...he was probably trying to be funny. Tongue in cheek uh - huh.

I've heard it said explicitly in messages as well as to my face by some elders that they believe people will be reading LSM Life Studies during the great tribulation.

Well. Won't they be in for a RUDE awakening! Thus saith the LORD:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the Book of Life and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:19

Not only this, I was told that Witness Lee spoke on this and went even further (this was not recorded in the Life Study). He believed that when the Bible says the woman will be nourished in the wilderness, he took that to literally mean that Christians going through the great tribulation will be nourished by his Life Studies.

I remember someone telling me we were going to be taking our life studies to the New Jerusalem or something like that.

Bur really now. For someone who supposedly read the Bible 50 times, he became blinder & blinder as well as DEAF to the Holy Spirit.

To the LC/LSM lurkers:
The woman going into the wilderness spoken of in Revelation 12:6 is ISRAEL. She is fleeing to Petra, Jordan. Stop reading Lee's idiotic commentaries!! Get a real bible, read it. Ask the Holy Spirit to give you understanding & to bless You with the TRUTH.

People from LSM by implication are obviously not there and have been whisked away.

Yeah... to the thousand year outer darkness, Lee purported....along w/his books & 'life studies'.

May the Lord truly have mercy on those people who are 'alive' in the trenches of the LSM.

[Chris Fleming]

I mean, lets keep it real. Maybe some Christians going through the great tribulation will get help from his Life Studies. Who knows? Maybe a lot will. But to say, and worse, teach that a certain part of the Bible is talking about HIM and his works, wow son that's crazy. And to see the stars in the eyes of the elders who told me this...I really have no words to describe it. This is the same in-group vs out-group cultyness that plagues Christianity that has to stop. Sad to say, I fear that A LOT of LSM people will be right there along side everyone else when the trib hits the fan...

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

I mean, lets keep it real. Maybe some Christians going through the great tribulation will get help from his Life Studies. Who knows? Maybe a lot will. But to say, and worse, teach that a certain part of the Bible is talking about HIM and his works, wow son that's crazy. And to see the stars in the eyes of the elders who told me this...I really have no words to describe it. This is the same in-group vs out-group cultyness that plagues Christianity that has to stop. Sad to say, I fear that A LOT of LSM people will be right there along side everyone else when the trib hits the fan...

Sure there may be some biblical truths in the life studies but there is also way too much leaven for any new Christian to handle or discern away. As a youth counselor, if any of my youth came across a life study I would seriously advise them to burn it. Jesus taught us a little leaven leavens the whole.. e.g. even 1% of a lie can grow to ruin 99% of the truth. That's why we have to run away from leaven until we build our discernment through the Holy Spirit and instead go straight to the word of God asking the One Teacher to teach us whenever we have questions. From my experience, Father God has answered every single one of my questions whenever I was confused about scripture - and always in a way that touches me personally that no life study or commentary could ever fulfill.

The early church did fine even without the New Testament. All they needed was its original author, the Holy Spirit who revealed to them to truths the OT were pointing to. They were lead to revelation on how the Jesus was the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the Messiah and how he fulfilled the 1. ceremonial law (Christ and the Holy Spirit fulfilled the first four of the seven feasts, the three other feasts are fulfilled in Revelation and Isaiah at his second coming), 2. sacrificial law (all the animal sacrifices pointed to the real sacrifice of the Messiah) and 3. moral laws (fulfilled by the Holy Spirit living in us and guiding us. As long as we follow the Spirit we are not under condemnation - Romans 8). If you have this foundational understanding, you could do pretty well without the NT, because the NT is the OT revealed (though I wouldn't recommend that of course)! The OT is pretty awesome once you realize that God is the same yesterday today and forever.

If you compare the Local Churches today to how the early Christians lived in Acts it's hard to even recognize any similarities. The sad thing is back in the 50s and 60s it actually did resemble the early church in acts, but Satan always tries to take a good thing and destroy it, which he does when church leaders yield to temptations like selfish ambition and don't repent - grieving the Holy Spirit and driving him to find good earth elsewhere.

My Grandma used to tell me really interesting stories of the early LCs, you can check out my blog post here: http://nodustybunnies.blogspot.com/2...-lee-were.html

The underground churches in China and elsewhere who are on fire for God are also a good picture of what a healthy church looks like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgm4O3uCdZ0

If you read Revelation 3 again you may realize as I did that Philadelphia could actually be the heavily persecuted underground churches who are so poor and oppressed that they don't even have full bibles. Jesus commends them for not denying his name, something that could only be a badge of honor in a country like Iran, Saudia Arabia or North Korea where Christianity is banned. If that's true, this may put the rest of us in Laodicea - ouch.

Here's a serious though hilarious sermon by Francis Chan on how American Cultural Christianity (a system he admits he is a part of) has diverted so much from the word of God. Your life may never be the same after watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWSmcR4Dxdg

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Christ and the Holy Spirit fulfilled the first four of the seven feasts, the three other feasts are fulfilled in Revelation and Isaiah at his second coming

My wife and I were at "Breakforth Canada" the year before last (this is a Christian missionary conference, dozens of speakers (including Francis Chan) are there. Anyway, we sat in for a series of lectures given by Joe Amaral on this very topic (quoted) above: Jesus in the Feasts. It was eye-opening, because frankly it's something I've never heard discussed ever before. Christians here in North America, and I dare say even in China, seem to have forgotten the basic context of Scripture; as divine revelation to God's people, Israel. The general consensus in churches today seems to be that since God offered salvation to the gentiles, we have nothing more to learn from the Hebrews He first called. I think that's more than unfortunate, it's heart breaking. In rejecting the context of Scripture, we have not only lost understanding, but even misunderstood so much of what Christ said and did. We NEED context.

Anyway, I read this quote of yours and I thought of that.... have you read any of Joe Amaral's books (IE: Understanding Jesus?) We brought the "Jesus in the Feasts" video to our Bible Study, and it seems to have spread around town with a number of small groups ordering it in. A worthwhile study indeed!

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

My wife and I were at "Breakforth Canada" the year before last (this is a Christian missionary conference, dozens of speakers (including Francis Chan) are there. Anyway, we sat in for a series of lectures given by Joe Amaral on this very topic (quoted) above: Jesus in the Feasts. It was eye-opening, because frankly it's something I've never heard discussed ever before. Christians here in North America, and I dare say even in China, seem to have forgotten the basic context of Scripture; as divine revelation to God's people, Israel. The general consensus in churches today seems to be that since God offered salvation to the gentiles, we have nothing more to learn from the Hebrews He first called. I think that's more than unfortunate, it's heart breaking. In rejecting the context of Scripture, we have not only lost understanding, but even misunderstood so much of what Christ said and did. We NEED context.

Anyway, I read this quote of yours and I thought of that.... have you read any of Joe Amaral's books (IE: Understanding Jesus?) We brought the "Jesus in the Feasts" video to our Bible Study, and it seems to have spread around town with a number of small groups ordering it in. A worthwhile study indeed!

Cool I'll check him out, thanks for the tip. My favorite guy right now for Hebraic understanding of the scriptures is Perry Stone. I also love this brother because you can tell he is hilariously crazy for God and he can't help it. If you watch him preach enough it can't help but rub off on you. Interestingly enough his view on eschatology is pretty similar to Watchman Nee, Hudson Taylor etc. who adhered to a multiple harvest or staged rapture of the church.

His revelation how well the Jewish wedding fits with how Jesus related to his bride, the church also blew my mind away. For example the bride and bridegroom would drink a cup of wine every week after their engagement as a symbol of their faithfulness to each other until the day of the wedding (when the bridegroom would come to pick up the bride at a day or hour she did not know to bring her to his father's house where he has prepared a room for her-- sound familiar?).

So when we take communion, it's not just a ritual of remembrance, but it's a symbol of our promised faithfulness to Jesus our bridegroom who bought us with the bride price of his life.

Here's his sermon about the Jewish wedding:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTlBtTMKGlk

and how the Jewish Wedding reveals the pre-trib rapture of the bride:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB5HYXNF7xg

Another good guy for Hebraic understanding is Mark Biltz who came up with the revelation of the blood moon tetrad that has transformed the biblical prophecy community.

I also really like Sid Roth, a messianic Jew's perspective of the feast days in his book (The Incomplete Church: Unifying God's Children).

He makes a good point that God never said his feasts are for Israel, but that they were "God's feasts". The Hebrew word for feasts is moed which means appointed time. It's interesting that the spring feasts + pentecost were fulfilled on the exact days of their feasts-- suggesting that the fall feasts will be fulfilled on their appointed days during Jesus' second coming-- very interesting!

Also Isaiah says that during the Messiah' millenial kingdom all the nations are forced to celebrate Tabernacles (if they don't they don't get rain). It's interesting to realize that Christmas may not be celebrated in the millenium, but instead -- the feast days! (Also there's a lot of evidence that Jesus' real birthday was Tabernacles-- six months after John the Baptists birthday on Passover-- amazing if true!) If anything since the fall feasts are not yet fulfilled, Christians should remember them because they point to the hope of our day of redemption. Furthermore, If they're going to be celebrated in the millennium by all nations why not celebrate them now?

Francis Chan is one of my favorite speakers, but he is so honest sometimes it's depressing. I remember after reading his two books "Crazy Love" and "Forgotten God" I'd just be so depressed feeling I couldn't measure up to the standard the bible set-- similar to how Jesus' disciples probably felt after he told him how narrow the way was that led to eternal life. It did make me more desperate and hungry for God though, so Hallelujah for that. I'm looking forward to him speak at IHOP's one thing conference which will take place in two days:

http://www.ihopkc.org/onething/

[countmeworthy]

NFNL wrote

we sat in for a series of lectures given by Joe Amaral on this very topic (quoted) above: Jesus in the Feasts. It was eye-opening, because frankly it's something I've never heard discussed ever before. Christians here in North America, and I dare say even in China, seem to have forgotten the basic context of Scripture; as divine revelation to God's people, Israel. The general consensus in churches today seems to be that since God offered salvation to the gentiles, we have nothing more to learn from the Hebrews He first called. I think that's more than unfortunate, it's heart breaking. In rejecting the context of Scripture, we have not only lost understanding, but even misunderstood so much of what Christ said and did. We NEED context.

Now That's what "I am talking about"! I have taken an interest in the Jewish aspect of the bible for some time now. Somehow the 'church' as a whole has forgotten the bible is not solely addressed to the converted gentile. In fact most the NT of it imho was addressed to the converted Jews.

We gentiles Believers are blessed to have the revelation Jesus is Messiah. He is King of the JEWS, King of ISRAEL and KING of kings/LORD of lords.

When I began to see the Lord speaking to the Jews in the Gospels & in Hebrews in particular, WOW, my spiritual eyes began to open anew.

Lee to my knowledge never saw this & thus neither does his flock.

Originally Posted by bearbear

My favorite guy right now for Hebraic understanding of the scriptures is Perry Stone.

I love it when he teaches from Israel.

Interestingly enough his view on eschatology is pretty similar to Watchman Nee, Hudson Taylor etc. who adhered to a multiple harvest or staged rapture of the church.

The scriptures are pretty clear describing multiple raptures:
1) Enoch
2) Elijah (2 kings 2)
3) Our Lord Jesus at His Ascension, breaking the laws of gravity I might add.
4) The Blood washed believers at the Shout, the Voice of the Archangel & the Trumpet of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16)
5) The 144,000 Evangelizing Jews who have the Seal of God (Revelation 14:3)
6) The 2 witnesses who are killed & lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem only to rise up 3 1/2 days later and be raptured up. Revelation 11:12

the Jewish wedding fits with how Jesus related to his bride, the church also blew my mind away. For example the bride and bridegroom would drink a cup of wine every week after their engagement as a symbol of their faithfulness to each other until the day of the wedding (when the bridegroom would come to pick up the bride at a day or hour she did not know to bring her to his father's house where he has prepared a room for her-- sound familiar?).

Yep! yep! YEP!!

So when we take communion, it's not just a ritual of remembrance, but it's a symbol of our promised faithfulness to Jesus our Bridegroom who bought us with the bride price of His life.

I had forgotten that. Thanks for jarring my memory. I have been having communion every day because when we eat & drink, we proclaim His death until He comes. (1 Corinthinians 11:26

Another good guy for Hebraic understanding is Mark Biltz who came up with the revelation of the blood moon tetrad that has transformed the biblical prophecy community.

John Hagee expounds on Mark's teaching while giving credit to Mark. Just you tube John Hagee 4 blood moons.

(Blood moons are Lunar eclipses. When the scriptures say immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, it is referring to a lunar eclipse. A red crown from the sun is seen around the moon, thus the 'blood' moon.

I also really like Sid Roth, a messianic Jew's perspective of the feast days in his book (The Incomplete Church: Unifying God's Children).

Also the book "one new man". Sometimes I like his shows, sometimes I don't. He is better to listen to in person than on his show imho)

He makes a good point that God never said his feasts are for Israel, but that they were "God's feasts".

Yep. The feasts of the LORD are found in Levitcus 23. Did not learn about them in the LC for sure!
1) Passover
2) Feast of Unleavened bread
3) Feast of Firstfruits
4) Sheaf Wave offering for 50 days (type of Pentecost)
5Feast of Trumpets
6)Feast of Atonement
7)Feast of Tabernacles

Perry Stone's teachings on the feasts are awesome! Really brings the scriptures to LIFE!

The Hebrew word for feasts is moed which means appointed time. It's interesting that the spring feasts + pentecost were fulfilled on the exact days of their feasts-- suggesting that the fall feasts will be fulfilled on their appointed days during Jesus' second coming-- very interesting!

That is why a lot of believers are looking at the fall feasts for the Lord to return, in particular Feast of Trumpets 'cause in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, we hear the TRUMPET of God. It is also the only Feast the Jews do not know the day or the hour the feast begins! They have to wait to see the sliver of the moon in Jerusalem before they declare officially the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Ha Shanna) has started.

So far...nothing .

Great STUFF NFNL & bear-bear!!
Thanks for sharing !!!!

Carol

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Lee to my knowledge never saw this & thus neither does his flock.

On the subject of Hubris and the OT, Sid Roth also had a book for Jewish evangelism called "They Thought for Themselves". It's a collection of stories of how people from Jewish backgrounds came to believe in Jesus as their Messiah and Savior.

My mind was blown when I read it because I realized that the cause of blindness of the Jews to their real Messiah repeated itself in the history of the Local Churches of Witness Lee.

The reason why many Jews have rejected Jesus as their Messiah is because they're not encouraged to read the Tanakh (OT) for themselves! Instead they're taught to go to the Talmud, which are rabbinic commentaries stretching back to the time of the Pharisees, for understanding of how to interpret the OT. When I read this I thought wow! The Talmud is like the Life Studies for the Jews - LOL!

Many of the testimonies in that book are of Jews who started reading the OT for themselves. After reading passages like Isaiah 53 they were like "What the heck, isn't this Jesus?". When they dug deeper, it was hard to argue with the fact that Jesus fulfilled 351 prophecies in the OT:

http://www.accordingtothescriptures....rophecies.html

Furthermore in Daniel's 70 weeks (Chapter 9), the angel Gabriel told Daniel that after 69 week years, the Messiah would be "cut off" and look like he did nothing, after which the temple shall be destroyed. Since the 2nd temple was destroyed in 70AD -- it's too late for the Messiah to be revealed! He had to have lived before 70AD.

A fun fact aside is if you count 483 prophetic years from when the decree was given to build the second temple you arrive at around when Jesus was revealed as the Messiah in Jerusalem just as Gabriel predicted. Scholars disagree on the exact dates, but it's amazing that it even falls into the ballpark. Chuck Missler claims that the prophecy was fulfilled to exact day here:

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

Wow I got off on a huge tangent. Sorry I think I have spiritual attention deficit disorder.

Anyway I realized that I started leaving the LCs in my heart after I began reading the bible for myself, and consulting authors outside of WNee/WLee like John Piper. Like the Jews who were led to Jesus by thinking for themselves, it's my hope many can come to the one Teacher our Father God (Matt 23:10), and the Holy Spirit who leads us to the truth (John 16:13) by thinking for themselves by going to God's word directly (Matthew 4:4).

If you think about it, the LC system tries to replace many of the roles that belong to God. God is supposed to be our all in all and he's supposed to have all the glory. In the LCs, God has to share his role and glory with WLee:

1. Witness Lee is the de facto teacher, the Life Studies and commentaries carry equal weight to God's word and in many cases overshadows it. Jesus however teaches that the Father is our only Teacher (violates Matt 23:10)
2. Witness Lee shares in the role of the Holy Spirit who Jesus says guides us to all truth. When LCers preach the gospel, they have to sell Witness Lee's ministry alongside Jesus. They point to WLee's writings and footnotes in the RcV as revelation that guides us to the truth in God's word. (violates John 16:13)
3. God has to share in the glory that belongs to him with WLee. WLee is purported to be the minister of the age and his ministry is equated with the New Testament ministry. Hence whether they like it or not, given this mentality, brothers and sisters are unknowingly glorifying WLee in a way that exalts his status above that as a minister of God's gifts (violates Galatians 1:5)

It's a reminder that church leaders should stay humble and should view themselves as simply servants. There's nothing ever to boast about because all the gifts we receive come from God. We should also never have a mindset that we have a monopoly on what God is doing on the earth. Just as the wind blows where it wills, so will the Holy Spirit go wherever he wills if he is grieved due to lack of repentance or finds good earth elsewhere.

What grieves me the most is that because Jesus taught us to judge a tree by its fruit, and all trees that bear bad fruit are cut down and cast into the fire (Luke 3:9), there is a slight possibility that we may not even see LSM's minister of the age in eternity (this is just a mental exercise, because if we do see him then praise God because he repented!). If this is true, it's really disturbing that there are so many brothers and sisters who are still living on every one of WLee's word, and not the word of God (who has proven itself 100% to be living with the resurrection of Jesus) like Jesus taught us to in Matthew 4:4.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I had forgotten that. Thanks for jarring my memory. I have been having communion every day because when we eat & drink, we proclaim His death until He comes. (1 Corinthinians 11:26

My wife and I were talking about doing this too We ordered matzos and grape juice earlier this month but canceled the order on amazon since we're out of town. If any reading this is confused, scripture says the early church had communion everyday!

"And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts," - Acts 2:46

That is why a lot of believers are looking at the fall feasts for the Lord to return, in particular Feast of Trumpets 'cause in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, we hear the TRUMPET of God. It is also the only Feast the Jews do not know the day or the hour the feast begins! They have to wait to see the sliver of the moon in Jerusalem before they declare officially the Feast of Trumpets (Rosh Ha Shanna) has started.

It would be awesome if the rapture happened on FoT. There's also going to be a partial solar eclipse on FoT within the coming tetrad in 2015, not to mention that there is also a total solar eclipse during the beginning of the Jewish New Year in 2015.

If the rapture wasn't related to FoT, I've wondered what else it could be.. since it seems to correspond so well to the resurrection of the dead in 1 Thess 4:16-17. I'll have to study this one more...

[Chris Fleming]

Just curious, does anyone know what happened with those *crazy* sisters that I mentioned in the 1st post here? Always wondered if the story that was told to us all was accurate. I'm inclined to believe it was but then again...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

Just curious, does anyone know what happened with those *crazy* sisters that I mentioned in the 1st post here? Always wondered if the story that was told to us all was accurate. I'm inclined to believe it was but then again...

Could be those infamous "sisters' rebellions," which supposedly occurred simultaneously in Anaheim and Texas. Much has been written about that. Ron Kangas holds pejorative views towards sisters, and likes to make it known where there "proper" place should be. Who knows if Ron is even addressing actual people and events, or just manufactured to "train" the sisters.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My wife and I were talking about doing this too We ordered matzos and grape juice earlier this month but canceled the order on amazon since we're out of town. If any reading this is confused, scripture says the early church had communion everyday!

"And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts," - Acts 2:46

That is a way to read it.

It is also possible that they simply ate together.

As for "day by day," it is easily understood as indicating a regular thing as opposed to an irregular thing. As a matter of their days, they went to the temple, they "broke bread" (ate a meal? or had communion?) from house to house. But just because it is preceded by "day by day" does not make every activity literally daily. Surely the activities went on all the time. But not necessarily literally everyone was doing each item daily. But it was found daily.

Not trying to squash anything. But just like having all things in common, copying it — or what we think is what they did — is not the way to a better, more spiritual experience.

In any case, the only commandment on it was " as often as you do it."

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Could be those infamous "sisters' rebellions," which supposedly occurred simultaneously in Anaheim and Texas. Much has been written about that. Ron Kangas holds pejorative views towards sisters, and likes to make it known where there "proper" place should be. Who knows if Ron is even addressing actual people and events, or just manufactured to "train" the sisters.

Yeah... hope he never gets hold of the New living Translation version (don't know what the RcV says) but in the NLT it says this:

Women should be silent during the church meetings. It is not proper for them to speak. They should be submissive, just as the law says. 35 If they have any questions, they should ask their husbands at home, for it is improper for women to speak in church meetings.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

In any case, the only commandment on it was " as often as you do it."

Hear! Hear!! UNTIL HE COMES!

For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord’s death till he comes.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

As for "day by day," it is easily understood as indicating a regular thing as opposed to an irregular thing. As a matter of their days, they went to the temple, they "broke bread" (ate a meal? or had communion?) from house to house. But just because it is preceded by "day by day" does not make every activity literally daily. Surely the activities went on all the time. But not necessarily literally everyone was doing each item daily. But it was found daily.

That's a good point, I never read that verse carefully.

One of the things that was jarring to me after leaving LCs was realizing almost all churches only do communion once a month instead of every week. But I realized later there is something beautiful about not doing it every week. I've learned to look forward to and treasure it much more as a special event. It used to be more or less of a ritual for me. Now every time I take it, it's significance always hits me.

When I take communion now I often think to myself "Lord I can't wait until you come and take us to the marriage supper of the Lamb. I want to be your faithful bride, if I fail, please give me the grace to stay faithful."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by bearbear

One of the things that was jarring to me after leaving LCs was realizing almost all churches only do communion once a month instead of every week. But I realized later there is something beautiful about not doing it every week. I've learned to look forward to and treasure it much more as a special event. It used to be more or less of a ritual for me. Now every time I take it, it's significance always hits me.

When I take communion now I often think to myself "Lord I can't wait until you come and take us to the marriage supper of the Lamb. I want to be your faithful bride, if I fail, please give me the grace to stay faithful."

I will note that the assembly I was attending for many years had their communion every four weeks, so it was slowly moving. But they had altered the practice in the more recent years to follow one of those older traditions of coming forward and taking a wafer and dipping it in some juice.

Some may argue against the form, but it is just that, a form. And the result was that it took time. Quite a bit of time. The band would typically begin to play some fitting music. Often most of one song before we began. Some would sing along waiting for their row to be released to go forward. Some would slip out and go to the apron of the platform to kneel and pray. Some would partake, then pray. Once everyone was done, there would be at least one more song before the final benediction (communion had been moved to the end). The time of benediction often found several still at the front praying. It was a fitting time of response to Jesus/God.

[OBW]

Felt to add something onto the aside on the Table. In another context, I had an interesting thought about the LRC.

When Paul talked about the Table with the Corinthians, he got on their case because they were not rightly discerning the body when they partook of the table as they divided in the way that they did over different teachers.

When I look at the existence of the various assemblies of different peripheral belief, it is easy to think we are seeing the result of just such lack of discernment. Yet it is arguable that many of them are less so than the LRC. Many of them have "open communion." They openly pray for all believers partaking around the city, and around the world.

But in the LRC it is not so. More than any of the others (outside of the RCC) they declare none but themselves worthy of partaking of the "true table." Yet they exclude those who publish their own stuff. Who want clean bed sheets. Who would try to be rid of sexual immorality in their leadership. Who do not buy the wares of the preferred publisher.

Who is not discerning the body of Christ? It is not the Pharisee or the Laodicean? Or the one who declares that they have all the riches and condemns those they think do not?

[Chris Fleming]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Could be those infamous "sisters' rebellions," which supposedly occurred simultaneously in Anaheim and Texas. Much has been written about that. Ron Kangas holds pejorative views towards sisters, and likes to make it known where there "proper" place should be. Who knows if Ron is even addressing actual people and events, or just manufactured to "train" the sisters.

On a side note, the whole LSM system has pejorative views towards sisters--many a time I saw married men stand up and say humiliating things about their wives. Even heard some of the "blending brothers" do the same in their messages. They probably got it big time when they went back home but that doesn't make up for the fact that men there feel VERY free to trash talk their wives right in front of a hundred people.

I don't think Ron made up that story--I just find it ironic to the max that they really think Lee's books were referenced in the Bible while condemning other people who thought they had some private insight as well.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Chris Fleming

On a side note, the whole LSM system has pejorative views towards sisters--many a time I saw married men stand up and say humiliating things about their wives. Even heard some of the "blending brothers" do the same in their messages. They probably got it big time when they went back home but that doesn't make up for the fact that men there feel VERY free to trash talk their wives right in front of a hundred people.

I don't think Ron made up that story--I just find it ironic to the max that they really think Lee's books were referenced in the Bible while condemning other people who thought they had some private insight as well.

Today I was listening to a message from November 2013 where the wife of a blended brother was used as an illustration. I have heard such illustrations in past years as well.
As to what you said in your initial post Chris, while LSM has the Life-Studies as their Bible commentary, how many other Bible commentaries have been published by fellow brothers?

[Chris Fleming]

Originally Posted by Terry

Today I was listening to a message from November 2013 where the wife of a blended brother was used as an illustration. I have heard such illustrations in past years as well.
As to what you said in your initial post Chris, while LSM has the Life-Studies as their Bible commentary, how many other Bible commentaries have been published by fellow brothers?

We all know that LSM would allow no other publication from within their group. Personally I don't have much problem with that, as it is their company and can run it as they see fit. There are probably all kinds of commentaries from other churches/organizations, but LSM will say that they are all wrong, or, "not on the line of life".

It was Austin church elder Neal Wolfson who told me that Lee said that the woman being nourished in the wilderness as seen in Revelation was the Christians in the great tribulation reading Witness Lee books. I wish you could have seen the gleam in his eyes as he said that. He was really excited, like he was an insider to something big already and before long, everyone will finally admit that Lee was Da Best. Seriously. Tym Seay was there as well and expressed no disagreement with that *ahem* interpretation of the Bible, so I take that to mean he seriously believed that as well.

[Chris Fleming]

On this very subject of LSM believing that the book of revelation is speaking about THEM, I recall Big Daddy Kangas giving a message and talking about overcomers...and the ones who will be "left behind". At one point he said they will not be reading Left Behind books but rather "will be downloading Life Study messages day and night!!!".

Again with the hubris.

No Ron, I respectfully say that Christians will be reading their BIBLES and seeking the LORD in prayer, not your books. Maybe some will read life studies, who knows? But Christians will need to be turning to the LORD and HIS WORD, not Witness Lee.

In that regard, their Life Studies are just another Left Behind book if they really think that the woman being nourished in the wilderness literally refers to people reading Witness Lee books. Ron didn't go so far in his message, but clearly he has been exposed to this teaching of theirs that was explicitly told to me by an elder, but he probably believes it.

Being in the Tribulation or being in just another work week, if you're reading somebody's ministry MORE than you're reading your Bible, there's something VERY wrong.