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Old 11-13-2020, 01:17 PM   #1
Sons to Glory!
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Question POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

This question has come up a few times, so I thought maybe we could do a poll around what everyone thinks is the greatest error of Witness Lee and/or the Local Churches.

Here are the errors, to start with, that I've seen mentioned on this forum:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny


What's your vote for the one biggest error, and maybe a runner-up error? Feel free to suggest any others not listed here.
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Old 11-13-2020, 02:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
Having studied the RCC, the Plymouth Brethren, and the Recovery, each developed a distorted practice of oneness to condemn all others, justifying in some cases the most horrible of atrocities. It's way beyond elitism, pride, and arrogance. It provides a license of evil and unrighteousness under the cloak of biblical spirituality and authority. It becomes a foundational vindication for all manner of evil to enter the church.
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Old 11-13-2020, 04:53 PM   #3
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
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Old 11-13-2020, 05:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

13. Hypocrisy
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Old 11-13-2020, 08:59 PM   #5
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

Highest of all violations- divine heresy in the worship of doctrine
- Exalting Doctrine-Prioritizing the doctrine of man to be the standard over the word of God. Judging the value of certain books of the bible based on its accordance to the doctrine of Witness Lee.
- Doctrine Manipulation- Using doctrine to violate scripture in order to manipulate church members to conformity and manipulation.
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Old 11-14-2020, 03:05 AM   #6
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
This question has come up a few times, so I thought maybe we could do a poll around what everyone thinks is the greatest error of Witness Lee and/or the Local Churches.

Here are the errors, to start with, that I've seen mentioned on this forum:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny


What's your vote for the one biggest error, and maybe a runner-up error? Feel free to suggest any others not listed here.
I think most of these errors have to do with one trait- unwillingness to listen and treating others as you want them to treat you (golden rule). With compassion. But yes, agree with Nell with Hypocrisy and also number 10, shunning.
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Old 11-14-2020, 07:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

Well that's interesting - starting out with not much consensus! Let's see how it goes once more of the "old-timers" chime in . . .
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Old 11-14-2020, 09:05 AM   #8
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

The fact that it was so easy to create a list of 12 errors of the Local Church of Witness Lee speaks volumes, and pretty much tells you about all you need to know about Witness Lee and the little religion of the Lord's Recovery that he invented. Given some more time, I'm quite sure that the list could be expanded to 20 or more.

What's the greatest error? Well the greatest error for one person might not be the greatest for another. As a brother in the Local Church of Witness Lee, I never gave misogyny much thought. Treating women/sisters as second class saints came pretty natural. I certainly never thought that it was some kind of error. Of course I never bothered to ask my wife or daughters

In my experience and observation for 40+ years I would say the greatest error would be Lee's teachings regarding the nature and character of God. If you get these wrong, one really doesn't know God after all. And if you don't know God then you don't know the Lord Jesus Christ. And if you don't know the Lord Jesus Christ then you don't know his Word. And if you don't know his Word then it is easy to fall into the errors on this list, and many others.
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Old 11-14-2020, 10:19 AM   #9
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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What's the greatest error? Well the greatest error for one person might not be the greatest for another.

In my experience and observation for 40+ years I would say the greatest error would be Lee's teachings regarding the nature and character of God.
It is interesting that most everyone, at least so far, has chosen something different. I'm sure that's because of all our individual experiences. And the different localities we were in is another reason as some adhered more closely to Anaheim and had varying degrees of common LC practices, etc.

I must say that when I first read Ohio's response, that the OCOC Elitism was the biggest thing (since many other erroneous things flowed out of that teaching), I didn't agree. But upon further thought, I think there may be something to this. From this doctrine, we in the LC got more than a little puffed-up. Then, if one thinks they got the market cornered on something foundational like that, they might tend to think the one preaching it must be the MOTA. And as you set this one up on a pedestal, it really goes to their head and they start thinking their teachings are all the more special. Then other Christian groups seem greatly diminished, so you don't respect them and start disparaging them and taking them to court! Yikes!

Hmmm Ohio, you may be unto something here . . .

Think about it, if the OCOC teaching hadn't been elevated so much, much of the other stuff might not have followed. It could have been, "We think we've seen something interesting in scripture about Christian oneness, but it's not something to be emphasized or pushed on others. Only the Lord can create true oneness (and He has) so we must look to Him and not this doctrine. Therefore let's fellowship and seek Him together!"
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Old 11-14-2020, 12:01 PM   #10
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Hmmm Ohio, you may be unto something here . . .
Having studied church history and the Bible, perhaps it has allowed me to see what were the initial errors that opened the door for all the others to creep in. At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power. What was the initial false teaching that allowed all the others?

Consider the RCC, "the authorized catholic oneness church." Don't you think that there were many godly and learned brothers within her, over centuries time, that saw the errors of papalism, Mary-worship, saint adoration, transubstantiation, idolatry, formulaic liturgy, priesthood class, celibacy, monasticism, confessionals, purgatory, inquisitions, tortures, the list of evils is endless, but ... they were silenced by the notion that they alone were the only true church of God. They did not want to violate the oneness and the authority of the church! They were silenced by the fear of being marked out for "making divisions," the unforgivable sin.

Same thing happened to the Brethren. Darby used oneness to cut off those perceived to be rivals. Darby taught that the "ground of unity" was the common judgment of evil. Huh? He became a worse pope than the one in Rome because it was he alone who "defined evil," and held everyone in fear of violating the oneness. So parallel to oneness is the falsity that the church always has "one man" for every move of God. This so-called leader uses the oneness, and the oneness maintains the leader's power base.

During our quarantines, I heard "all the brothers are one except Titus Chu." Isolate potential rivals in the minds of your adherents, and then maintain control on all information. Darby also used this tactic on B.W. Newton, and then on George Mueller -- isolate and destroy with endless tracts. The RCC used this so successfully that much of "actual" church history is only known by "reverse engineering" what the RCC wrote. After the Pope ordered the slaughter of whole communities of believers located often in little mountain hamlets, no one was alive to write their side of the story.
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Old 11-14-2020, 05:32 PM   #11
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

As UntoHim said, the very fact that a list this long, that can easily be made much longer, can be created speaks volumes already.
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Old 11-15-2020, 05:14 AM   #12
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Having studied church history and the Bible, perhaps it has allowed me to see what were the initial errors that opened the door for all the others to creep in. At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power. What was the initial false teaching that allowed all the others? .
The pride and lust can be tied back to misogyny, because sisters can be very powerful. Just considering what sister “rebellions” have done in the last decade to “undermine” the LC can make any leading brother afraid.

I need to read up on Darby..
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Old 11-15-2020, 07:42 AM   #13
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....
Not sure what came first - the idea of "Recovery" or "The Ground of Oneness." Maybe someone with better knowledge of LC origins could address that.
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Old 11-16-2020, 12:00 AM   #14
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

Usurpation of the Headship of Christ

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Col. 1: 13-20


I realize this was not one of the 12 items in your list but I feel that all 12 items you listed have its root problem due to the usurpation of the headship of Christ.

Last edited by LoveHim&HearHim; 11-16-2020 at 12:05 AM. Reason: An error and added remark
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Old 11-16-2020, 12:32 AM   #15
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

You know I was thinking, the core or original error might just be the seperation from the established denominations and forming a Christian Church in China that had no accountability or connection to any balanced Christian group. Doing this too soon, without having learned much foundational lessons needed before branching off and seperating themselves.

If they had moved towards autonomy gradually, and experienced healthy accountability, (as many protestant denominations have had good systems of internal accountability), they could have grown into something valid and productive.

They became autonomous and independant to 'young', to immature, and too bound to Chinese culture and spirituality. In their rebellion, immaturity and cultural blinkers, they were bound to go astray in a multitude of ways. They missed figuring out what had really happened to cause denominations to be formed in the first place, judging them negatively but not giving it all deeper thought. And they had not dealt with pride, vanity, and egotism first. There was no internal checks and balances to keep things on track. It's therefore no surprise that the superior and exclusive spirit has risen up amongst them, as well as many other human vices.

Its their first steps that set them in a bad direction I'm thinking. Their history that is the first thing to blame.
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Old 11-16-2020, 07:47 AM   #16
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Usurpation of the Headship of Christ

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Col. 1: 13-20


I realize this was not one of the 12 items in your list but I feel that all 12 items you listed have its root problem due to the usurpation of the headship of Christ.
I think you make a good point. Any time we move away from Him, there's really only one other source - the flesh. And no matter how good the thing seems that the flesh is doing, it's still not of Him. The world (of course) and the church are full of it! But God's one solution to all this was crucifixion, that Christ's life might be manifested.

Any way . . . once a focus is on anything other than Christ Himself, like a man or some "good" teaching, away we go - off snorkeling in the weeds!
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:29 AM   #17
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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(1) The pride and lust can be tied back to misogyny, (2)because sisters can be very powerful. Just considering what sister “rebellions” have done in the last decade to “undermine” the LC can make any leading brother afraid.

I need to read up on Darby..
(1) How so? Are women not as prone to pride and lust as men? (2)Some women are assertive while others not so much. How do you mean "sisters can be very powerful".

Sister rebellions? I only know of one "sisters 'rebellion, '" ever, which occurred in 1977, and this has been debunked. Are you referring to something specific?

Nell

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Old 11-18-2020, 10:42 AM   #18
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

As per discussion on another thread, I'm thinking another big error might be the LC preaching of "God's Governmental Authority on Earth." (It might also tie-in a little with number 9: "Central control while preaching local autonomy.") It's a teaching that makes members think church leaders are on a lofty pedestal and, to a high degree," above all reproach. Therefore many leadership related issues basically get ignored with minimal accountability or correction, and then just festers in the body causing a myriad of things . . .
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Old 11-18-2020, 02:23 PM   #19
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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(1) How so? Are women not as prone to pride and lust as men? (2)Some women are assertive while others not so much. How do you mean "sisters can be very powerful".

Sister rebellions? I only know of one "sisters 'rebellion, '" ever, which occurred in 1977, and this has been debunked. Are you referring to something specific?

Nell
Hi Nell, by “rebellion”, I mean whenever a sister is censored for her views or voice. I know that the LC sees them as “rebellions” but they are not so. More like sister whistleblowers. I started one in CA and Jo started a letter exposing truths.

And by pride, I think this may be different based on context. For me as a millenial, I see the pride and lust of the leading brothers not wanting the sisters to have a say in anything, this can just be due to my own experience in the specific localities I was in. Like I was 19 when I started the mini “rebellion” and for the elders to want to censor me was ludicrous. If you ask anyone I met what happened, they will deny or say they dont remember me. After all, I was just speaking to other sisters about the wrong things we saw in the local church. But then the elders step in and tell them not to associated with me anymore. So yes, I guess I’m basing it off my own experiences. They were very afraid of me.
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Old 11-18-2020, 06:10 PM   #20
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Hi Nell, by “rebellion”, I mean whenever a sister is censored for her views or voice. I know that the LC sees them as “rebellions” but they are not so. More like sister whistleblowers. I started one in CA and Jo started a letter exposing truths.
Seriously naive here. I have seen far more brothers censored for their views. The authoritarian LC system I knew was far more brutal and abusive to the guys than to the ladies. YMMD. I never saw a sister shamed in public.
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Old 11-19-2020, 02:39 AM   #21
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Seriously naive here. I have seen far more brothers censored for their views. The authoritarian LC system I knew was far more brutal and abusive to the guys than to the ladies. YMMD. I never saw a sister shamed in public.
just because you never saw something doesnt mean it didnt happen.It may be back then when they were more brutal to the brothers or your personal experience, but times have changed and LC has gotten strict with sisters as well, has always been. And Good, I wouldnt have wanted you to see me shamed in public. Also stop being rude to me on the main forum. UntoHim is unto us.
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Old 11-19-2020, 10:28 AM   #22
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

Okay - can we get back to the main topic now? So where are we . . . ?
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Old 11-21-2020, 06:39 AM   #23
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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The pride and lust can be tied back to misogyny, because sisters can be very powerful. Just considering what sister “rebellions” have done in the last decade to “undermine” the LC can make any leading brother afraid.

I need to read up on Darby..
The greatest error is to have respect of persons. We brothers liked the Witness Lee Mind Control Programme and Guanxi Network (WLMCPGN) because automatically half the members were inferior. Maybe we got shamed more in public, but that was because we were being groomed to lead, to shame others. Sisters weren't even worth shaming individually, they could be dismissed categorically.

"Sometimes I think the only thing worse than a rebellious brother is a spiritual sister". This was from a leading one, RK, in a conference. And this was a group that lauded Madame Guyon! Jessie Penn-Lewis! Elizabeth Fischbacher (WN's muse, who translated all his speeches into books). Ruth Lee, who alone sat with WL during the "restoration meeting" of WN after years out of power. Peace Wang, Margaret Barber, Dora Yu, ... where would any of these fit in the WLMCPGN today? Nowhere is where. They are just props, paper dolls, used and discarded. There's no love, just respecting of persons and jockeying for temporal power.

God's plan for humanity, supposedly 'recovered' by Mary E McDonough... but where would Mary E. McDonough be today in the WLMCPGN? She'd better keep her mouth shut. But she's conveniently dead, so she can be marketed, safely.

http://marymcdonough.ccws.org/redemption/index.html

See, e.g.,

https://www.lsm.org/pdfs/Mystery-of-...HL-English.pdf

Jesus taught that with the gentiles the great ones lord it over the others, but in the kingdom of God, the least on earth are greatest in heaven. Jesus reversed temporal rules of power, traditional power relationships. But two decades later, James saw this distorted and abusive human-relation structure coming back into the fellowships of faith and exposed it (James 2). The Christian assembly was designed to be completely subversive of traditional power structures. But the assembly has instead gotten co-opted by those who want to dominate others. It started almost immediately.

To love is to give to someone else, even when they can't pay you back. The poor, the sick, the weak, the aged, the forgotten orphan, the imprisoned... give them attention, care, food, shelter, water, comfort. If you do this, if you "love those who can't love you back", then "your reward will be great in heaven". In the WLMCPGN you got instead the kind of attention a vampire gives to its victim. They look for "good building material" and "love" your blood and crave it, in a kind of lust for dominion over others. And the preaching of respecting of persons makes the recipient a compliant mark in their design. God's Deputy Authority and all that... Today's Noah, Today's Moses, Today's Paul, Minister of the Age, God's Humble Bondslave, the the Seer of the Vision of the Age etc etc. It's all part of a marketing ploy to pull the unsuspecting into the ministry nets, to be pierced and drained and tossed aside.
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Old 11-21-2020, 06:59 AM   #24
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

15. Those worthless golden yellow interlocking chairs.
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Old 11-21-2020, 07:28 AM   #25
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

As UntoHim said, the very fact that a list this long, that can easily be made much longer, can be created speaks volumes already.
This one is right up there. The whole idea of a "restored" or "recovered" church. Look up "One True Church" or "Restored Church" or similar words on a Google search and you get dozens of hits. A lot of people have successfully used this dodge. Divide and conquer.

Even the "Reformation" is suspect in my eyes, and I'm a card-carrying Born Again Baptist. All these people getting visions of recovery or reformation or restoration bring further splinter cells and alienation. Even the EOC is a splinter cell - read on the Chalcedon Conference some time. They were splitting hairs and splitting assemblies long before Martin Luther came along.

Either God raised Jesus from the dead, or not. The gospel preached by Peter on Pentecost morning was a simple one. Either his narrative, his witness is true, or it isn't. That's where faith comes in. Either you believe it (because you want to) or you don't (because you don't want to). It's a personal journey. Don't impose your 'vision' on others. That is not the gospel message. The gospel (to me) is that Jesus lowered himself to nothing, and through his humbling we're reconciled, restored, both to God and to one another. Everything that needed recovery was done on the cross, and in the grave. The empty tomb was a witness, and the angels reminded the astonished entrants of this simple fact. "He is not here - he is risen"
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Old 11-21-2020, 07:31 AM   #26
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15. Those worthless golden yellow interlocking chairs.
YES! I don't miss those at all. (they musta got a good deal on them, because they were everywhere!)
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Old 11-21-2020, 07:37 AM   #27
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YES! I don't miss those at all. (they musta got a good deal on them, because they were everywhere!)
Those chairs were apparently a vehicle to "recover" or "restore" son Timothy's finances, post-DayStar Motorhomes. Timothy got a good deal on them, not sure anyone else did. But we'll never know, because when WL was asked where the money went, he said that was his personal business.
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Old 11-21-2020, 09:22 AM   #28
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It's a personal journey. Don't impose your "vision" on others. That is not the gospel message. The gospel (to me) is that Jesus lowered himself to nothing, and through his humbling we're reconciled, restored, both to God and to one another. Everything that needed recovery was done on the cross, and in the grave. The empty tomb was a witness, and the angels reminded the astonished entrants of this simple fact. "He is not here - he is risen"
Since the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the very heart and the root of the Christian faith, it stands to reason that any significant departure from, much less perversion of, this Gospel will lead any group of believers - no matter how sincere - into a system of error. Witness Lee taught that he had a "higher gospel". We should have all known that this was in error. Unfortunately, most of us were gullible babes, silly little "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Eph 4:14) Most of us were pretty clueless, and decidedly and blissfully ignorant of the danger we got ourselves in to. Before we knew what hit us, we were singing at the top of our lungs "Oh I'm a man, I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"

So what's the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church? Well, maybe the greatest error was a "different gospel"....and from this different gospel sprung forth all the errors we have been talking about. From this different gospel came forth a "different Jesus". From this different gospel came forth erroneous teachings, understandings and views about God and about Man. As I noted a little earlier in this thread, when you get the nature and character of God wrong, you really don't know God at all. What you really know is a mere caricature of God - a distorted and erroneous counterfeit of the true God, the creator of heaven and earth. What you really know is a different Jesus, a mere caricature of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself up for us at the cross. What you really know is not the Spirit of Truth, our only hope of ever being guided into the truth, but a caricature of the Holy Spirit, which is another spirit, the spirit of error.(1 Jn 4:6) And this is why our discussions about the trinity and modalism are so very important. Lee got God wrong. Lee got Jesus wrong. Lee got the Spirit wrong. Lee got Man wrong. Lee got the church wrong. Oh dear Lord Jesus, have mercy on us! Lead us into all truth. Your Word is truth. Only your Word is truth. Save us from any system of error. Wake us from our stupor.
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Old 11-21-2020, 10:15 AM   #29
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Killing critical thinking. And self reflection.
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Old 11-21-2020, 10:31 AM   #30
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@ohio
Those interlocking Chairs are a universal thing throughout all localities? Hahahahahahaha omg. That is so funny, is it some sense of oneness that they want to have???? Just the minor details of how the local churches run things on a miniscule scale is so hilarious. I could care less about interlocking Chairs, seems ok to me. But darn that is an interesting funny piece of info.
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Old 11-21-2020, 11:18 AM   #31
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How else would they fulfill Witness Lee's teaching that each local church be identical in color and outward appearance? The requisite chairs' quiet golden glow in every meeting hall must do the trick....
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Old 11-21-2020, 11:50 AM   #32
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Since the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is the very heart and the root of the Christian faith, it stands to reason that any significant departure from, much less perversion of, this Gospel will lead any group of believers - no matter how sincere - into a system of error. Witness Lee taught that he had a "higher gospel". We should have all known that this was in error. Unfortunately, most of us were gullible babes, silly little "children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes" (Eph 4:14) Most of us were pretty clueless, and decidedly and blissfully ignorant of the danger we got ourselves in to. Before we knew what hit us, we were singing at the top of our lungs "Oh I'm a man, I'm the center and the meaning of the universe!"

So what's the greatest error of Witness Lee and the Local Church? Well, maybe the greatest error was a "different gospel"....and from this different gospel sprung forth all the errors we have been talking about. From this different gospel came forth a "different Jesus". From this different gospel came forth erroneous teachings, understandings and views about God and about Man. As I noted a little earlier in this thread, when you get the nature and character of God wrong, you really don't know God at all. What you really know is a mere caricature of God - a distorted and erroneous counterfeit of the true God, the creator of heaven and earth. What you really know is a different Jesus, a mere caricature of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself up for us at the cross. What you really know is not the Spirit of Truth, our only hope of ever being guided into the truth, but a caricature of the Holy Spirit, which is another spirit, the spirit of error.(1 Jn 4:6) And this is why our discussions about the trinity and modalism are so very important. Lee got God wrong. Lee got Jesus wrong. Lee got the Spirit wrong. Lee got Man wrong. Lee got the church wrong. Oh dear Lord Jesus, have mercy on us! Lead us into all truth. Your Word is truth. Only your Word is truth. Save us from any system of error. Wake us from our stupor.
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That's interesting. And back in the time of the 60s and 70s, as babes, with a fresh experience of the Spirit flowing through us - we were all probably a little ga-ga with WL saying it was a higher, mo-better gospel! So we swallowed and kept swallowing the whole thing.

And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?
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Old 11-21-2020, 12:09 PM   #33
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And regarding a different Jesus and different gospel, we discussed what you meant by this over on another "poll" thread awhile ago. But could you please restate what that means again, for the sake of the discussion here?

Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus
= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
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Old 11-21-2020, 12:50 PM   #34
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Different Gospel= Different than the clearly stated Gospel of the New Testament. Lee taught and preached a different gospel than what was taught and preached by the Lord Jesus and the scripture writing apostles.

Different Jesus
= Different Jesus than the Jesus portrayed and quoted in the Gospels of the New Testament. The gospel preached and taught by Witness Lee includes other extra-biblical teachings and concepts. Lee's "processed Triune God" teaches and portrays a different Jesus than is taught and portrayed in the New Testament.
-
Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?
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Old 11-21-2020, 07:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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@ohio
Those interlocking Chairs are a universal thing throughout all localities? Hahahahahahaha omg. That is so funny, is it some sense of oneness that they want to have???? Just the minor details of how the local churches run things on a miniscule scale is so hilarious. I could care less about interlocking Chairs, seems ok to me. But darn that is an interesting funny piece of info.
I shouldn't complain. They were an improvement over those metal folding chairs.
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Old 11-21-2020, 09:56 PM   #36
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Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:16-21)

Compare and contrast this Gospel with the gospel of Witness Lee.

If you think the Lee's gospel is the same, I will ask you to supply us with many quotes of Lee over the past 30-40 years of his ministry that comport with the passage I have quoted above. If you cannot easily do this, well then I would say that this is the answer to your question.
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Old 11-22-2020, 02:52 AM   #37
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Thanks. The "different Jesus" is clearer than the "different gospel" point. Can you elaborate a little more of what you mean by a different gospel, that is, how exactly does it differ?
The context for Paul's use of this phrase "different gospel" was the Judaizers message who preached that we must be circumcised in order to be saved. This occurred in Antioch resulting in the Acts 15 council. This happened to the Galatian believers who were subsequently lost. This was a constant struggle in the Gentile world after they heard Paul's gospel. Nearly every book of the NT shows the struggle between the true gospel of grace, and the "different gospel" brought by the Judaizers.
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Old 11-22-2020, 03:03 AM   #38
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God. (John 3:16-21)

Compare and contrast this Gospel with the gospel of Witness Lee.

If you think the Lee's gospel is the same, I will ask you to supply us with many quotes of Lee over the past 30-40 years of his ministry that comport with the passage I have quoted above. If you cannot easily do this, well then I would say that this is the answer to your question.
-
I have seen a lot of commercials on TV recently with Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham. I thought he was preaching the true gospel, and when I heard him, I would pray for others to believe his message. Now I wonder.

His message did not exactly match the verses above. It was quite different.

Are you now saying that his brief gospel message on TV was a "different gospel?"
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Old 11-22-2020, 06:38 AM   #39
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I don't know about Frank Graham, but WL preached a different gospel. Anytime Matthew 18 principles are overturned and new principles like "drunken Noah" are inserted, it's a different gospel.

There are a lot of pseudo Christian groups like this. The founder/leader cannot, by definition, be wrong. So evils are done in the leader's name, and overlooked. Anyone who points out the obvious is condemned and expelled.

In this, they clearly "hate the light" as UntoHim's quote of John 3 says.
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Old 11-22-2020, 09:50 AM   #40
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There is an astronomical difference between "preaching another gospel" for salvation and the abusive authoritarian LSM practices that undermine Biblical principles like Matthew 18, I Cor 6, or I Tim 5. They are two different worlds. Ask Apostle Paul. He only referred to the Judaizers as those who brought "another" gospel, a "different" Spirit, or "another" Jesus. To be clear, Paul was referring to the OT practices of circumcision, Sabbath, Kosher, holidays, etc.

Characterizing WL in this way goes beyond the scripture. Paul did not condemn all his opponents in this way, and neither should we. If so, then Peter in Galatians 2 is a cult leader with another gospel. This is similar to labeling all those that we disagree with as being in a cult. I have never met with a church that was not at one time labeled a cult, heretical, etc. but Christians tend to reserve "another gospel" for the likes of Mormons and JW's.

Even Peter's gospel message in Acts 2 and Acts 3 do not look like John's gospel message in John 3. Ask Boxjobox. John speaks of Jesus as God, the Only Begotten Son, while Peter speaks of a man, who died for us, and was raised from from the dead. Peter demands repentance while John demands believing. Sound real "different."

So is the book of John or the book of Acts the real gospel, and which is "another" gospel? Which is the real Jesus, and which is "another" Jesus? Can I get saved thru the message of Acts 2 and 3, or must I get saved thru the message of John 3? Or are they both bad, and I must get saved thru the message of Romans 10?
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Old 11-23-2020, 06:57 AM   #41
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There is an astronomical difference between "preaching another gospel" for salvation and the abusive authoritarian LSM practices that undermine Biblical principles like Matthew 18, I Cor 6, or I Tim 5. They are two different worlds. Ask Apostle Paul. He only referred to the Judaizers as those who brought "another" gospel, a "different" Spirit, or "another" Jesus. To be clear, Paul was referring to the OT practices of circumcision, Sabbath, Kosher, holidays, etc.
Forcing Gentile converts to adopt Jewish practices is different from the gospel given in the NT. But it's not the only gospel that is different. Suppose Paul had said, "I am the MOTA. Normal rules of accountability like what Jesus taught in Matthew 18 don't apply to me. That's only for the small potatoes." He'd be preaching a different gospel.

Suppose in Acts 4 & 5, when they sold properties, and laid the proceeds at Peter's feet, then he opened a ski area on Mount Hermon, and put his family members in charge. Then, when they asked where the money went, he said, "That's my personal business." That would be a different gospel.

Suppose Philip put family members in charge of his ministry office, and then they started abusing church members, and Philip had the victims relocated, and witnesses expelled from church fellowship. Then Philip would be preaching a different gospel.

I don't care how impressive their messages seem. If they act like that, then they hate the light, as John 3 says, and they preach a gospel of darkness. When the light becomes dark, how great is the darkness. Now, we all are short of God's glory. But that is why James says, "Don't be many teachers, because you fall under greater condemnation." It's bad enough being a sinner trying to make it home. Don't make it worse by saying you are the Grand Pooh-Bah, that you have a separate set of rules because the 'light' has shown you this. That's a false light, and a different gospel.

https://laist.com/2020/04/14/la-luz-...on-profile.php

How bad does it have to get, before people start to realize, "Something ain't right here"? Apparently it has to get really, really bad.
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Old 11-23-2020, 09:22 AM   #42
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Forcing Gentile converts to adopt Jewish practices is different from the gospel given in the NT. But it's not the only gospel that is different. Suppose Paul had said, "I am the MOTA. Normal rules of accountability like what Jesus taught in Matthew 18 don't apply to me. That's only for the small potatoes." He'd be preaching a different gospel.
You fail to distinguish between falsifying the way of salvation and abusive leadership. Jesus said "I am the way," but with another gospel, the way of salvation is taken away and replaced. In Paul's time that replacement was OT practices such as circumcision. What is "really bad" is when people go to hell because they trusted in dead works and not the blood of Jesus.

I hate to see abusive and fleshly practices by rotten leaders too. There is no way to justify or coverup this stuff. But even Jimmy Swaggert, with his own motel laiazons, still preached the gospel of Christ, believing in the desth and resurrection of Jesus our Savior. These are personal failures that bring shame to His wonderful name, but his followers at least hear good news.

This in no way justifies the sins of ministers. They are held to a higher standard. Discipline for their sins should be made public. But where do we draw the line. If the message of every preacher is discredited by his sin, then there is no more gospel.
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Old 11-23-2020, 10:05 AM   #43
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Ohio,

Yes, the different gospel and the different Jesus that Paul was referring to in Galatians was that of the 1st century Judaizers, and maybe a reference to some others attempting to influence the new believers. But I'm sure you realize that there has been another 2,000 years of church history since. Over the centuries, many false teachers and false prophets have preached another gospel and another Jesus. The different Jesus' started almost immediately after the Lord Jesus' departure, and the different gospels had already been preached during Paul's ministry to the churches. The Lord Jesus warned his disciples "For many will come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they will lead many astray". (Matt 24:5) It seems that Jesus was warning the church about a different Jesus even before Paul. And the apostle Paul warned about another gospel that would be preached after his death: "I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."

I don't know much about that "another gospel" that was preached in first century Galatia. I don't know much about that "another Jesus" that those Judaizes were preaching. What I do know, and what I am referring to, is the another gospel and another Jesus that Witness Lee taught. Unfortunately, I am very familiar with this another gospel that Lee taught, and I am very familiar with this another Jesus that Lee taught. And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Benson Phillips, the president of the Living Stream Ministry, who proclaimed that unless you fully imbibe Lee's gospel and Lee's Jesus, one cannot be sanctified. He also said that anyone who abandons Lee's gospel and Lee's Jesus will never become a great spiritual person. (whatever that means). And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Minoru Chen, the most blended of Blended Brothers. Minoru recently proudly boasted that he was "filled with bother Lee's spirit!" So this is what happens to a person that spends 50+ years imbibing, preaching and teaching Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus. With Minoru, I guess we can ad another another - another spirit. And do you know who else is even more familiar with Witness Lee's another gospel and another Jesus? That would be Mr. Ron Kangas. Brother Ron is so sold out to Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus that he proudly proclaimed that none of the spiritual giants of the past 2,000 years could "match" Witness Lee. That's right...Luther's gospel....no match! Darby's Jesus....no match!


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If the message of every preacher is discredited by his sin, then there is no more gospel.
Witness Lee's different gospel and Witness Lee's different Jesus were discredited and debunked by Christian apologists and writers without knowledge or regard for his personal sins. The Daystar debacle has little to nothing to do with the different gospel that Lee preached. Phillip Lee has little to nothing to do with the different Jesus that Lee taught. Take a look at Open-Letter.Com The concerns that are expressed are altogether focused on Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus, and there is no mention of his personal sins. Sorry, but your argument here is without merit.
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:12 AM   #44
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

We've accumulated a number of comments regarding what folks here think is the biggest error. I've quickly gone through this thread and have added a few things (in blue) that people have brought up.

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Preaching a different gospel
14. Preaching a different Jesus
15. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
16. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
17. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
18. The concept of "Recovery"


So there doesn't seem to be any consensus on these things - we seem to be all over the map! Is there maybe a way to consolidate these in some way? That is, have some things on this list occured that are the result of another root cause?

(my vote is those funky, interlocking yellow chairs - somehow I think that's caused the majority of issues!! )
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Old 11-24-2020, 11:35 AM   #45
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

Hi StG!

Does your church have a website? The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is enamored with the local church practices (without the fanatical following of Nee/Lee) and I think he would be interested in learning about your locality.

The reason I'm asking here and not by PM is that members of this site might also be interested.

Thanks for any references or links you may provide.

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Old 11-24-2020, 12:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Hi StG!

Does your church have a website? The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is enamored with the local church practices (without the fanatical following of Nee/Lee) and I think he would be interested in learning about your locality.

The reason I'm asking here and not by PM is that members of this site might also be interested.

Thanks for any references or links you may provide.

HERn
Sure! And if they have any questions, I'll do my best to answer. Scottsdale Church
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Old 11-24-2020, 12:32 PM   #47
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Sure! And if they have any questions, I'll do my best to answer. Scottsdale Church
Thanks! I forwarded him the link.
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Old 11-24-2020, 01:41 PM   #48
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Ohio,

Witness Lee's different gospel and Witness Lee's different Jesus were discredited and debunked by Christian apologists and writers without knowledge or regard for his personal sins. The Daystar debacle has little to nothing to do with the different gospel that Lee preached. Phillip Lee has little to nothing to do with the different Jesus that Lee taught. Take a look at Open-Letter.Com The concerns that are expressed are altogether focused on Lee's another gospel and Lee's another Jesus, and there is no mention of his personal sins. Sorry, but your argument here is without merit.
Looks like neither you nor Ohio understood, which is perhaps on me, because I tend to state my gut reaction or end point and then enumerate why, at least to my satisfaction. But it often doesn't work, so I'll try again.

The basis of the Christian faith is repentance. In the Bible, humankind is separated by sin. Separated from God, from self, from each other, from creation. The call of the NT gospel is to repent - Jesus and John the Baptist both came out of the desert calling all people to repent. Those who wouldn't repent - scribes, lawyers - were singled out for approbriation.

So where to we find NT scripture to lead us to think this is no more relevant? Where do we see one single special brother or sister, to whom the Matthew 18 rules don't apply? It's not about sin, but about repentance. Where do we see justification for saying, "Brother 'X' is always right, even when he's wrong." Where do we see, "I don't care for right and wrong [read, sin] but only for the sense of life"? Ohio brings up Jimmy Swaggert... good example, actually: suppose Witness Lee and Philip Lee had publicly repented, with tears, like JS did? Then there might be some hope for this movement. They did not, and there is none. It is a different gospel. Suppose WL and son Timothy sat down in front of the church, post-Daystar, and said, "The money's gone. Here's what happened." .. and gave a full accounting, transparent? Then there might be hope for their gospel. They did not, and there is none. Until there is repentance there is no hope.

Suppose Jimmy Swaggert, post-exposure, had buried or relocated the involved parties, run all the witnesses out of town as "rebels", and terrorised the church not to speak of his affairs? Then he'd be preaching a different gospel. Not the gospel of Jesus Christ but the gospel of self. Just like WL did.

That's why all the open letters about theology don't really impress me. They are not wrong, but they are unnecessary. I don't care how many apologists like Hank H they dredge up to say it's just a misunderstanding, if we just realize what is meant by 'persons' and 'energies' and 'essences' then it's all good. No, Hank, it's not all good. It's all bad.
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Old 11-24-2020, 08:15 PM   #49
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post

So there doesn't seem to be any consensus on these things - we seem to be all over the map! Is there maybe a way to consolidate these in some way? That is, have some things on this list occured that are the result of another root cause?
The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to.
Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.
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Old Yesterday, 07:21 AM   #50
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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The root cause, is they were birthed in rebellion and immaturity. They individuated into their own, self-managing entity before they were ready to.
Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.
So what you and Aron are saying is the root of much of it is pride and unrepentance?
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Old Yesterday, 01:25 PM   #51
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

I'm a little afraid that any extensive search for a "root cause" will lead us to be missing the forest for the trees. In the case of this thread, that would be missing out on what are the actual "greatest errors". Furthermore, expanding the list out to include such ostensibly innocuous things such as meeting hall chairs, and even "the concept of recovery", would be taking our eyes off the ball in my view.

For some teaching or practice to be considered "in error", there has to be an established biblical truth or set of truths that the teaching or practice has departed from. All biblical truths are necessarily exclusive. If something is actually a truth, then by definition it is exclusive. If it is true that the sky is blue, then it cannot simultaneously be considered as red.

And this is how I have determined that the greatest error of Witness Lee and his followers is that they have departed from the biblical Gospel, and the biblical Jesus. The historical, biblical Gospel - the irreducible, unassailable, all-sufficient Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ - the Gospel first preached by John the Baptist, then by the Lord Jesus himself, then by first generation apostles and disciples, then by the 2nd generation of disciples and believers, and then by all genuine disciples and believers down through church history until this very day. The true Gospel has two main components: The Giver - God Himself - "For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son". The receiver - "that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life". Any Christian teacher who takes away from, adds to or distorts in any way, shape or form, this Gospel is preaching another gospel. There is no lower gospel. There is no higher gospel. If one is not preaching and teaching this true Gospel, they are indeed preaching and teaching "another gospel".

Now we come to "another Jesus". At the very heart of the historical, biblical Gospel is the historical, biblical Jesus - The Lord Jesus Christ - the only begotten Son of the Blessed One - the Christ - The Messiah - The Anointed One - The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world - Jesus Christ the Righteous - The Living One who was dead and is now alive forevermore - And his Name is called the Word of God - The historical, biblical Jesus who is presented, described, quoted, loved and hated, praised and scorned, mocked and worshipped, crucified and resurrected, raised from the dead and taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God - the Lord Jesus Christ who is there within the pages of the Gospels. There is no such thing as a true, biblical Jesus apart from the Bible. There is the true Jesus, and there is another Jesus. There is no partially-biblical Jesus. There is no semi-biblical Jesus. There is no extra-biblical Jesus.
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Old Yesterday, 03:08 PM   #52
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

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Originally Posted by Curious View Post
Therefore, they made doctrines out of their own human vices, There was no system of accountability or force to oppose this development. The vices that directed their evolving divergent theology, are those common to all mankind, therefore following a predictable pattern that bears itself evident in any other abberant groups, (cults), as well noted elsewhere on this forum.

They hadn't come to the place of properly understanding the gospel themselves. As aron also states clearly: Personal conviction of sin. Repentance inspired by the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Real Christianity 101. He comes into us to raise us up to His standard, not to 'mingle' with our spirit and be thereby reduced to our level, (so that we can be 'covered' and NEVER need deal with our own personal responsibility before God to repentance).

They have missed the boat totally. If WN had stayed learning, humble, and thought more deeply, and walked more closely with God genuinely, he may never have become famous. But he might have stayed on track.
I agree with the above. The root cause is seen in Genesis 3: disobedience, sin, death. The rest of it, including WL creating his own ad hoc theology whose only consistency was that it consistently benefitted his guanxi network, follows. The inability to admit any error and to learn from mistakes, to admit ignorance and learn from others, are part of the theology's course.
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Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM   #53
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Default Re: POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

May I suggest to UntoHim that we are talking different angles of the same truth. I think aron and I are looking at motivation, and you are looking at the resulting actions of wrong motivation. As the thread is digging for the ‘root’ of the problem, my conviction is that it always starts with motivation.

God promises to give wisdom freely to us, we just need to ask. But when we are off in our heart motivation, our deep hidden real agenda, we go astray and seek wisdom ourselves to prop up our actual goal and miss the voice of wisdom, and her insight. (‘her’ according to proverbs personification of wisdom)

On post 10, Ohio stated the following: ‘At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power’. I agree that all of StG’s 18 points, (except for the yellow chairs), can be chalked up to these two agendas. Only I could vamp the pride one up to grandiosity of self, or pride in its extreme, on the MOTA claim. All control embedded in the 18 points is to facilitate the pride and lust for power, so it’s a motivation but only to serve another, deeper root motivation. Rebellion at the root of the original division, (ie WN’s desire to separate and form his own church), immaturity, (as a permanent, unchanging state, that is), unrepentance, all of these are expressions of, and/or serving the root pair. Pride and lust for power. Even lust for power could be attributed to serving the greater purpose of pride perhaps.

Fully agreed, the tangled-up rabbit-warrens of modalism and other theological errors are very important to unravel . The twisting of the gospel so as to try to support the root agenda, has created much confusion and hurdles for people and need attending to.

As to finding the base root of all this confusion, I put a lot of weight into ‘God judges the heart,’ as it is the source of our direction. When the motivation is about self, as satan’s attempt to elevate himself testify in the 5 ‘I wills’ of the book of Isaiah chapter 14, that’s where the corruption begins. I think it's clear that WN, and certainly WL, are guilty of this error. My own ancestors are guilty of this error, and with the right opportunity, I know myself well enough to see, I am/could become critically at risk of this error too. The lesson is to be wise to know and be wary of this risk.
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