Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Alternative Views - Click Here to Start New Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-07-2020, 05:07 PM   #1
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology lens

this is a topic I would like to explore more. I have questions regarding whether God the Father is the same as God in the Old Testament, the differences between Elohim, Jehovah, and similarities of Israel’s God to those dieties worshipped among the Canaanites, Ancient Mesopotamians, Amonites, and “pagans”, even having similarities to greek and roman gods and goddesses and Egyptian mythology. . I learned the El Shaddah (Israelites God) originated from El who was was the main Canaanite God with Asherah, the mother of mankind. So did the Israelites plagiarize the pagan’s main God and made their own stories about an Israelite God? There is compelling evidence due to the words and letters used in those ancient transcriptions by the canaanites.

See inscriptions of Hebrew God names similarity to Yahweh of Samaria and his Asherah-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anci...anite_religion
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2020, 07:53 AM   #2
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
originated from El who was was the main Canaanite God with Asherah, the mother of mankind.
This thread has a wide range of topics, some that go back into the fog of history.

But I wanted to point out that, Asherah was not only the mother of mankind, but was the wife of Yahweh. Male Jewish Bible author's and scribes edited it out.

God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible -- Almost

https://www.seeker.com/gods-wife-edi...766083399.html
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2020, 02:20 PM   #3
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
This thread has a wide range of topics, some that go back into the fog of history.

But I wanted to point out that, Asherah was not only the mother of mankind, but was the wife of Yahweh. Male Jewish Bible author's and scribes edited it out.

God's Wife Edited Out of the Bible -- Almost

https://www.seeker.com/gods-wife-edi...766083399.html
This is quite interesting. It makes sense- I wonder where else in the bible we can find hints of Asherah.

And I also wonder if the female personification of Wisdom may have something to do with it in the Book of Proverbs and Job (carbon dated to be the oldest book in the entire Old Testament).
https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/woman-wisdom-bible

and this makes me wonder even more the implications of Lilith (woman created by God before Eve for Adam) being editted out but still remaining in Jewish mythology texts.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2020, 05:43 PM   #4
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

So I’ve been doing some reading, and it seems like while the Israelites were attempting to make their religion unique, there were multiple instances listed in the Old Testament where the kings of Israel forbade the people to worship Asherah, Baal and other gods. This started the “divorce” of Asherah from association with El or Yahweh. In fact the symbol of Asherah is interestingly a tree or cross ( like the one Jesus was on) and these cultic symbols were in front of the Temple of Solomon at the time. Biblical character Jezebel wanted people to worship Asherah, but the authors of the Old Testament looked down upon such worship and Jezebel became a villain.

Check out this article for more information: https://www.google.com/amp/s/mytholo...n-of-eden/amp/


This article has some references to Asherah in the Old Testament- https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/arti...Hadley_Asherah

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article...hasherim-bible

What is an Asherah pole? Connection with Garden of Eden-
https://www.christianity.com/wiki/bi...erah-pole.html

There’s another theory: “ Perhaps what the question is intended to ask is not why there’s no mention of Asherah in the Bible (which there is), but rather why Asherah in her role of wife of El/Yahweh was edited out of the Bible. The answer is simple: she was never there. It is of course true that the Israelite religion evolved out of Canaanite polytheism through a stage of monolatry into, at least by the post-exilic era, monotheism; it is true that in the older ‘parent’ religion, El/Yahweh was the head of a pantheon with Asherah as his wife and various divine children, like Ba’al. However, the transition from polytheism to monolatry is quite ancient, maybe dating back in origin to about the time Hebrew culture first became distinct from other Canaanite cultures, 1200 BCE or so. Although I’m sure it was never a neat and clear transition, but ran on for centuries with attributes of other gods occasionally merged into Yahweh (such as Ba’al’s nature as a storm god), that’s still much earlier than the Bible: the very oldest biblical text is probably Amos ca. 750 BCE, and the five books of the Torah are much later still, dating to some time around the Babylonian exile (maybe during it, maybe just after) in the 6th century BCE. In other words, although Asherah was originally worshipped as a goddess and wife to Yahweh, by the time the Bible was written, the Hebrews no longer believed that and hadn’t believed it for half a millennium or so. Since they did not believe it, they didn’t write it down in the first place; hence it never had to be edited out.” from Quora.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2020, 07:12 PM   #5
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
This is quite interesting. It makes sense- I wonder where else in the bible we can find hints of Asherah.
I guess the translators of KJV didn't like Asherah. They translate it as "groves"


And I also wonder if the female personification of Wisdom may have something to do with it in the Book of Proverbs and Job (carbon dated to be the oldest book in the entire Old Testament).
https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/woman-wisdom-bible

and this makes me wonder even more the implications of Lilith (woman created by God before Eve for Adam) being editted out but still remaining in Jewish mythology texts.
Asherah appears 40 times in the OT. But it's translated "groves." I guess the the KJV translators were embarrassed about Asherah. But they went with "Queen of Heaven," in Jeremiah 7:16–18 and Jeremiah 44:17–19, 25. Likely Asherah was that queen.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2020, 06:54 AM   #6
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Asherah appears 40 times in the OT. But it's translated "groves." I guess the the KJV translators were embarrassed about Asherah. But they went with "Queen of Heaven," in Jeremiah 7:16–18 and Jeremiah 44:17–19, 25. Likely Asherah was that queen.
There are a lot of tree imageries in the old testament that parallel Asherah’s function as fertility goddess, including the “tree of life” and eating of the trees in the Garden of Eden. Interestingly, she was also correspondent to serpents, as identified by Eve (mother of humankind) talking to the serpent, and Moses’ staff becoming a serpent and being healing for the Israelites. She was also associated with the golden calf, whom the israelites were worshipping when Moses came down from the mountain. You have to start to wonder why the Israelites kept worshipping other gods and goddesses or idols, and it qould make sense that it was because they were used to it; they were polytheists who worshipped Asherah and other Canaanite gods in addition to El or Yahweh, or even preferred her over Yahweh. In fact in the book of Jasher, Miriam, not Moses was the protagonist, and thus worship of Asherah over Yahweh.

The Canaanite god Molech (associated with the underworld and child sacrifices) has traits similar to the angry Jehovah in the Old Testament, who demanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac or for firstborns of cattle and sheep to be sacrificed; in addition to killing of firstborns, a common motif throughout the Old Testament. Satan can also be derived by him, due to association of of a fiery hell which child sacrifices in pagan rituals demanded or interestingly, the horns the Devil is commonly illustrated to have is very similar to Molech’s images.

The Canaanite god Ba’al interestingly was probably absorbed in the character of Israelite God: “The title baʿal was a synonym in some contexts of the Hebrew adon ("Lord") and adonai ("My Lord") still used as aliases of the Lord of Israel Yahweh. According to some scholars, the early Hebrews did use the names Baʿal ("Lord") and Baʿali ("My Lord") in reference to the Lord of Israel, just as Baʿal farther north designated the Lord of Ugarit or Lebanon.[50][6] This occurred both directly and as the divine element of some Hebrew theophoric names. However, according to others it is not certain that the name Baal was definitely applied to Yahweh in early Israelite history. The component Baal in proper names is mostly applied to worshippers of Baal, or descendants of the worshippers of Baal.[55] Names including the element Baʿal presumably in reference to Yahweh[56][6] include the judge Gideon (also known as Jerubaʿal, lit. "The Lord Strives"), Saul's son Eshbaʿal ("The Lord is Great"), and David's son Beeliada ("The Lord Knows"). The name Bealiah ("The Lord is Jah"; "Yahweh is Baʿal")[7] combined the two.” (source- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal)
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2020, 08:41 AM   #7
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Okay this website has been my go -to for the topics in this thread: ANCIENT ORIGINS
https://www.ancient-origins.net/huma...sherah-0010611

And this article reveals a Moabite story showing that their god Chemosh defeated Yahweh, Israelite’s god. -

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haa...aism-1.6469415

Contrast that to 2 Kings portrayal of same fight/battle between the gods. Is this an instance of lack of omnipotence in portrayal of God back then due to existence of other powerful deities who had different duties.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2020, 09:03 AM   #8
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

I was down the last couple of days, but when able I've been doing my best to keep up with this thread.

I love learning more about the Bible and the early Israelite's, but I doubt others out here will want to venture into learning about these subjects.

That Yahweh had a wife early on in Israelite history will not be accepted because they are hung on the popular conception of the Bible and Israelite history.

Their conception is that the Israelite's have always been monotheist, and God is against Asherah. It's in their Bible.

And archaeology be damned. It's the work of the devil.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2020, 10:29 AM   #9
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I was down the last couple of days, but when able I've been doing my best to keep up with this thread.

I love learning more about the Bible and the early Israelite's, but I doubt others out here will want to venture into learning about these subjects.

That Yahweh had a wife early on in Israelite history will not be accepted because they are hung on the popular conception of the Bible and Israelite history.

Their conception is that the Israelite's have always been monotheist, and God is against Asherah. It's in their Bible.

And archaeology be damned. It's the work of the devil.
non worries, take care of your emotional well being first. there’s a lot of ground to cover no hurry. im just startingnto delve deep in this- very fascinating.!it makes a lot more sense if the Israelites started out with a God who wasnt omniscient omnipresent or all knowing. they prob added these attributes to him later due to all the babylonian and assyrian exiles to cope with their situations by producing and trusting jn an all powerful God and having Hope for the future
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2020, 09:08 PM   #10
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Just between you and me, it seems, why is it the we can readily accept, without a hint of question, that, God had sons, yet we don't readily accept with the same ease that God had a wife? It kinda all goes along together.

She may have been one of the us, that God said Adam and Eve had become after receiving the knowledge of good and evil.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2020, 09:43 PM   #11
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Just between you and me, it seems, why is it the we can readily accept, without a hint of question, that, God had sons, yet we don't readily accept with the same ease that God had a wife? It kinda all goes along together.

She may have been one of the us, that God said Adam and Eve had become after receiving the knowledge of good and evil.
She was demonized. She was probably Lilith. It’s because Christians want gays to be celibate like God and dont want to admit God had a companion and couldnt do it all by Himself. The wife was erased and became nothing. Or God was gay but you know that theory didnt go well on the other thread.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2020, 08:54 AM   #12
Boxjobox
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 779
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

This is just an off topic aside, but somewhat related to the considering the OT and Israel and God.
Today, in every city are homeless vets, and in institutions are PTSD vets, and basically, young people who went to war and saw too much, and never could cope with what they went through. When I read in the OT of Israel’s wars, they were often commanded to go into towns, villages, tribes and wipe out everything that breathed- men, women, infants, children, animals. This was not done by bombs and rockets,, but by face to face, hand to hand combat. I don’t see how a human being could obliterate others in such a fashion and not be psychologically damaged for life and suffer, and as a nation not be severely dysfunctional. It would be like Columbine on a national level. Yet, it was a God commanded action. It was not like God sending hornets, or plagues or drought or locust that breath fire and have scorpion tails, it was God’s people going into intact communities and massacring everything with blood, guts, horror, stench everywhere..
How do I relate to this?
Boxjobox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2020, 10:07 AM   #13
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
She was demonized. She was probably Lilith. It’s because Christians want gays to be celibate like God and dont want to admit God had a companion and couldnt do it all by Himself. The wife was erased and became nothing. Or God was gay but you know that theory didnt go well on the other thread.
The question of God's sexual orientation arises because God is so male obsessed. It's a matter of appearances.

I blame the author's of the Bible ... that were all male ... in the days when women were grouped with livestock. - Exodus 20:17

It started with Eve, who got the wrap for the fall. Blame the women ... God buried Asherah in the back yard. For being a pain in the behind.

That's hyperbole, but you get my point. Male authors suppress and blame women, for men's failures. Paul's the worst. God can have sons, but not daughters. And definitely not a wife. And because it's in the Bible it's not questioned. We carry it on. We still today elevate men above women ; where all human life comes from.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2020, 11:29 AM   #14
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
This is just an off topic aside, but somewhat related to the considering the OT and Israel and God.
Today, in every city are homeless vets, and in institutions are PTSD vets, and basically, young people who went to war and saw too much, and never could cope with what they went through. When I read in the OT of Israel’s wars, they were often commanded to go into towns, villages, tribes and wipe out everything that breathed- men, women, infants, children, animals. This was not done by bombs and rockets,, but by face to face, hand to hand combat. I don’t see how a human being could obliterate others in such a fashion and not be psychologically damaged for life and suffer, and as a nation not be severely dysfunctional. It would be like Columbine on a national level. Yet, it was a God commanded action. It was not like God sending hornets, or plagues or drought or locust that breath fire and have scorpion tails, it was God’s people going into intact communities and massacring everything with blood, guts, horror, stench everywhere..
How do I relate to this?
Shame on me. I never thought of that. But you're undeniably right. Thanks for pointing it out.

But I don't think it was so for the early Israelite's. They seemed to blend in well. They were henotheists, not warriors, polytheists.

Then Yahweh took over in their minds, and just like the first monotheistic religion -- Atenism, Egypt 1400BCE -- Yahweh wasn't tolerant.

And how do you relate?
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2020, 04:04 AM   #15
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Shame on me. I never thought of that. But you're undeniably right. Thanks for pointing it out.

But I don't think it was so for the early Israelite's. They seemed to blend in well. They were henotheists, not warriors, polytheists.

Then Yahweh took over in their minds, and just like the first monotheistic religion -- Atenism, Egypt 1400BCE -- Yahweh wasn't tolerant.

And how do you relate?
I like the word henotheists, I think it makes the most sense in how the world is organized, the gods are organized like that too.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 03:27 AM   #16
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hebrew_Goddess

What we were discussing earlier with zeek, I think it would be a really on book written by an anthropologist to look into- the connection between Asherah and Shekhinah

And this one especially which connects the trinity to the female entity:
http://yeshuas-kin-dom-of-heaven.blo...chive.html?m=1
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2020, 08:32 PM   #17
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hebrew_Goddess

What we were discussing earlier with zeek, I think it would be a really on book written by an anthropologist to look into- the connection between Asherah and Shekhinah

And this one especially which connects the trinity to the female entity:
http://yeshuas-kin-dom-of-heaven.blo...chive.html?m=1
There's not much evidence that God had a wife. She would have straightened Him out from the get-go.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 04:34 AM   #18
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
There's not much evidence that God had a wife. She would have straightened Him out from the get-go.
This is true. Hence why the Bible is so full of male violence and God’s anger and wrath, especially the Old Testament. The only book without violence that I can see is the Song of Solomon. Temember, Somolon was considered as having so much wisdom and Wisdom/Sophia is personalified as female. If there were more female aspects of God revealed by the Bible writers, the Bible as we know it wouldnt be so full of violent stories or based on fear (hell and other concepts, etc).
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2020, 11:00 PM   #19
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
This is true. Hence why the Bible is so full of male violence and God’s anger and wrath, especially the Old Testament. The only book without violence that I can see is the Song of Solomon. Temember, Somolon was considered as having so much wisdom and Wisdom/Sophia is personalified as female. If there were more female aspects of God revealed by the Bible writers, the Bible as we know it wouldnt be so full of violent stories or based on fear (hell and other concepts, etc).
Seems as the Bible goes God snuffed His wife.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 06:58 AM   #20
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 836
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

You know the phrase “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”? (Or like a woman’s scorn.....not sure which). Either way, women can be hellaciously angry/wrathful/violent too.
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 08:59 AM   #21
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
You know the phrase “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”? (Or like a woman’s scorn.....not sure which). Either way, women can be hellaciously angry/wrathful/violent too.
Haha true dat. Like in shakespeare
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 09:43 AM   #22
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
You know the phrase “hell hath no fury like a woman scorned”? (Or like a woman’s scorn.....not sure which). Either way, women can be hellaciously angry/wrathful/violent too.
My great grandma was a moonshiner and mean as a snake, after getting kicked out of the Nunnery. Those were tough times. I can't even imagine how tough it was 2000 and 3000 years ago ... not to mention 100,000.

But men don't have a womb, and motherly nature's. That's got to count for something.

Here's an interesting question : If God had a wife, like early Israelite's recorded, Asherah, did she have a womb? and additionally, is that where God's sons came from?

This God wife thing is new to me. I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around it. But that would explain that God made us in His image. God was human-like before us.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 02:42 PM   #23
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Here's an interesting question : If God had a wife, like early Israelite's recorded, Asherah, did she have a womb? and additionally, is that where God's sons came from?

This God wife thing is new to me. I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around it. But that would explain that God made us in His image. God was human-like before us.
Your grandma got kicked out of the nunnery? haha I was kicked out of the LC.

To answer your question about the womb, I would assume so since she was the fertility goddess known back then. People were more simple minded and didnt come up with the concept of the trinity until further down the road. According to Canaanites, she had multiple sons, some of them are mentioned in the Old Testament that the Israelites were told not to worship (ie Baal, Molech, etc)
Here is an interesting article- https://sites.google.com/site/yahweh...he-sons-of-god

I guess it’s because we grew up in monotheism. If we were Native American, we would have no trouble wrapping our brains around it.

This is an interesting read. (Scroll all the way down).
https://publicism.info/religion/jewish/3.html

Methinks Cain was a personification of some of the “bad” sons Asherah had, and Abel is the opposite.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 03:09 PM   #24
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Now Awareness, this one will mindboggle you even more. Were there two Yahwehs in the Old Testament? https://sites.google.com/site/yahweh...eh/two-yahwehs
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 08:04 PM   #25
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
Now Awareness, this one will mindboggle you even more. Were there two Yahwehs in the Old Testament? https://sites.google.com/site/yahweh...eh/two-yahwehs
I can't even handle one Yahweh ... much less two.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2020, 11:55 PM   #26
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
I can't even handle one Yahweh ... much less two.
I have an alternate hypothesis for the Genesis creation story- it says that “Let Us create” man in our image,.. male and female he created them. If you look at the Hebrew translation, it’s El talking to his divine council, hence the other lesser gods and goddesses’ image that men and women were created. At the time, the Trinity concept did not exist for the Israelites; they only had the other polytheistic religions and their pantheons as models for their own creation story.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 12:17 AM   #27
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Satan was prob one of God’s divine council. After all his name means daystar, another canaanite god. Like in Job, they were wagering.Satan was the prosecutor and God was like the defense in a courtroom, they were more like at equal grounds. Kind of like Zeus and Hades.

Check it out- https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...ligion-judaism
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 09:56 AM   #28
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
Satan was prob one of God’s divine council. After all his name means daystar, another canaanite god. Like in Job, they were wagering.Satan was the prosecutor and God was like the defense in a courtroom, they were more like at equal grounds. Kind of like Zeus and Hades.

Check it out- https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...ligion-judaism
Great conception difference of Satan to Jews and Christians.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 04:30 PM   #29
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
Satan was prob one of God’s divine council. After all his name means daystar, another canaanite god. Like in Job, they were wagering.Satan was the prosecutor and God was like the defense in a courtroom, they were more like at equal grounds. Kind of like Zeus and Hades.
Satan is different in the OT than in the NT. In Job he prances around like one of the divine council. He was at one point God's top dog, so to speak, if Exodus 28:12-16 is speaking of him.

In the NT he's a fiery red dragon.

And where did you find that Satan's name is daystar?
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2020, 10:16 PM   #30
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Satan is different in the OT than in the NT. In Job he prances around like one of the divine council. He was at one point God's top dog, so to speak, if Exodus 28:12-16 is speaking of him.

In the NT he's a fiery red dragon.

And where did you find that Satan's name is daystar?

“We can begin with the translation of the Old Testament into Greek around 200 BCE, a version now known as the Septuagint. Jewish scholars assigned to the task came across this phrase in Isaiah 14:12: Helel ben Shahar. Shahar was the Canaanite god of dawn (to this day, the word in Arabic for dawn is sahar) and Helel, the morning star, was his son. In Greek this phrase became Heosphoros ho proi anatellon. Heosphoros, or Dawn-Bringer, is a variant of Phosphorus, Light-Bringer. (If things had fallen out only slightly differently, it wouldn’t be uncommon for a contemporary preacher to exhort his congregation to “Beware the snares and wicked ways of Phosphorus!”) At the writing of the Septuagint, then, nowhere in any Bible on earth could the name Lucifer be found.”

https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/20...ad-rap-part-1/

http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/lucifer...in-isaiah-1412

Isaiah 14:12-14 is where the Devil shows up under the name "Lucifer" (or "Day Star") for the first time. it actually does allude to an older Canaanite myth about a god who revolted against Ba'al (the king of the gods) and was forced to retreat into the underworld.

This is an article about the Hebrew to greek translations of the hebrew word meaning “morning star” https://bible.org/article/lucifer-de...n-translations
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2020, 08:19 AM   #31
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
“We can begin with the translation of the Old Testament into Greek around 200 BCE, a version now known as the Septuagint. Jewish scholars assigned to the task came across this phrase in Isaiah 14:12: Helel ben Shahar. Shahar was the Canaanite god of dawn (to this day, the word in Arabic for dawn is sahar) and Helel, the morning star, was his son. In Greek this phrase became Heosphoros ho proi anatellon. Heosphoros, or Dawn-Bringer, is a variant of Phosphorus, Light-Bringer. (If things had fallen out only slightly differently, it wouldn’t be uncommon for a contemporary preacher to exhort his congregation to “Beware the snares and wicked ways of Phosphorus!”) At the writing of the Septuagint, then, nowhere in any Bible on earth could the name Lucifer be found.”

https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/20...ad-rap-part-1/

http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/lucifer...in-isaiah-1412

Isaiah 14:12-14 is where the Devil shows up under the name "Lucifer" (or "Day Star") for the first time. it actually does allude to an older Canaanite myth about a god who revolted against Ba'al (the king of the gods) and was forced to retreat into the underworld.

This is an article about the Hebrew to greek translations of the hebrew word meaning “morning star” https://bible.org/article/lucifer-de...n-translations
I just could never accept it. I remember way back when I was told this was about the fall of Satan from heaven.

I read the verses and then read the chapter. It was clear to me the verses were speaking about the king of Babylon. But all my Christian friends didn't see that. They had an eye to see the devil. Seemed like they needed it that way ... for reasons beyond me.

I am, tho, a fan of Venus, the real morning star. But if it fell from heaven there'd be no earth to be a part of the new heaven and new earth. And Satan would no longer have a playground.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-21-2020, 11:15 AM   #32
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,112
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

How about this? The spiritual perspective of Christianity is based on a traditional cosmology that answers different questions than the materialistic modern one which asks how does it work? What is it made of? Instead, the spiritual perspective asks what does it mean? What higher truth does it embody?

Materialistic cosmologies describe phenomena in terms of energy, matter, space and time. The biblical cosmology describes reality in terms of heaven, earth, space and time.

In the context of the spiritual worldview a symbol is a fact that embodies higher meaning. Symbols have a metacognitive function in this cosmology because they're miniature representations of the entire cosmos.

The traditional cosmology doesn't describe the natural world. It's a model in which consciousness mediates between spiritual and corporeal realities as symbolized by heaven and earth.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2020, 06:43 PM   #33
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
How about this? The spiritual perspective of Christianity is based on a traditional cosmology that answers different questions than the materialistic modern one which asks how does it work? What is it made of? Instead, the spiritual perspective asks what does it mean? What higher truth does it embody?

Materialistic cosmologies describe phenomena in terms of energy, matter, space and time. The biblical cosmology describes reality in terms of heaven, earth, space and time.

In the context of the spiritual worldview a symbol is a fact that embodies higher meaning. Symbols have a metacognitive function in this cosmology because they're miniature representations of the entire cosmos.

The traditional cosmology doesn't describe the natural world. It's a model in which consciousness mediates between spiritual and corporeal realities as symbolized by heaven and earth.
This is a very intellectual way of putting it. Thats why I dont understand Bible literalists.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 01:36 AM   #34
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,112
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
This is a very intellectual way of putting it. Thats why I dont understand Bible literalists.
Fundmentalist-leaning Evangelicals lack a symbolic understanding of the scriptures. They conflate a symbolic cosmology with a modern science based one. Witness Lee largely worked out of a symbolic biblical worldview. But, he lapsed into literalism particularly in the area of eschatology. And he taught his followers through a method of rote indoctrination instead of giving them the tools to think symbolically for themselves. In part, that may be due to the fact that, he may not have a meta-understanding of his own methodology. And doing so might have conflicted with his understanding of himself as MOTA. In any case, looking at the Bible symbolically is an alternative to the historical speculative method.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 03:45 PM   #35
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Fundmentalist-leaning Evangelicals lack a symbolic understanding of the scriptures. They conflate a symbolic cosmology with a modern science based one. Witness Lee largely worked out of a symbolic biblical worldview. But, he lapsed into literalism particularly in the area of eschatology. And he taught his followers through a method of rote indoctrination instead of giving them the tools to think symbolically for themselves. In part, that may be due to the fact that, he may not have a meta-understanding of his own methodology. And doing so might have conflicted with his understanding of himself as MOTA. In any case, looking at the Bible symbolically is an alternative to the historical speculative method.
This is an old story. I'm reading Elaine Pagel's "The Origin of Satan." She's talking about why some books made it into the canon and others didn't. Basically, the criteria was based upon the need of the proto-orthodox to form the institutional church. Also, that the Comforter/Paraclete/Spirit wasn't allowed for the same reason. The Spirit can't be controlled, and so conflicts with the institutional church, that requires control. (The Gospel of Thomas, for example, wasn't selected to be in the canon because in it Jesus promotes an independent relationship with the divine, not dependent on the church).

Same with Lee. Just Bible symbolism wasn't enough. His recovery and the MOTA required something more, something real. So rote training works, right up to today. Lee has a history of stamping out the Holy Spirit, for the same reasons.

Basically that's what I see as the shortcoming of symbolism. It's a handy interpretation tool, but it's not enough. We need something real, and we need to think that the Bible stories are literal and historical. Symbolism doesn't accomplish that.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 05:32 PM   #36
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,112
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
This is an old story. I'm reading Elaine Pagel's "The Origin of Satan." She's talking about why some books made it into the canon and others didn't. Basically, the criteria was based upon the need of the proto-orthodox to form the institutional church. Also, that the Comforter/Paraclete/Spirit wasn't allowed for the same reason. The Spirit can't be controlled, and so conflicts with the institutional church, that requires control. (The Gospel of Thomas, for example, wasn't selected to be in the canon because in it Jesus promotes an independent relationship with the divine, not dependent on the church).

Same with Lee. Just Bible symbolism wasn't enough. His recovery and the MOTA required something more, something real. So rote training works, right up to today. Lee has a history of stamping out the Holy Spirit, for the same reasons.

Basically that's what I see as the shortcoming of symbolism. It's a handy interpretation tool, but it's not enough. We need something real, and we need to think that the Bible stories are literal and historical. Symbolism doesn't accomplish that.
Bible stories that are merely literal and historical and occurred 2,000 years ago or more have nothing to do with us. So what do we need them for?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 05:37 PM   #37
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Bible stories that are merely literal and historical and occurred 2,000 years ago or more have nothing to do with us. So what do we need them for?
It doesnt pertain to modern society- case in point (same sex relationships in the ancient times vs in modern times are different). But yet some people use the bible as a universal (transcending space and time) ruler for morality and ethics. Which I dont understand.
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 07:14 PM   #38
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,112
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
It doesnt pertain to modern society- case in point (same sex relationships in the ancient times vs in modern times are different). But yet some people use the bible as a universal (transcending space and time) ruler for morality and ethics. Which I dont understand.
Another reason why if you look at it only as a literal historical document and makes no sense. So where are you going to go for your morality and ethics?
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 09:13 PM   #39
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Bible stories that are merely literal and historical and occurred 2,000 years ago or more have nothing to do with us. So what do we need them for?
As examples for us to live by. I can't tell how many times I've been told that so and so was like Abraham, or some other Bible character. It kinda works for them.

And look at Lee, copying the one church one city, the apostle on the earth, and even the supposed minister of the age. Those 2 and 3 thousand year old stories have sticking power. You know that.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 10:02 PM   #40
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,112
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
As examples for us to live by. I can't tell how many times I've been told that so and so was like Abraham, or some other Bible character. It kinda works for them.

And look at Lee, copying the one church one city, the apostle on the earth, and even the supposed minister of the age. Those 2 and 3 thousand year old stories have sticking power. You know that.
The Bible makes people Bible-crazy. You know that. Or at least a guy I know has been telling me that for years like a broken record.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2020, 10:25 PM   #41
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
The Bible makes people Bible-crazy. You know that. Or at least a guy I know has been telling me that for years like a broken record.
Whoever that guy is tell him to shut up. But I have to admit, in my case at least, he's right.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:37 AM   #42
SerenityLives
Member
 
SerenityLives's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 332
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by zeek View Post
Another reason why if you look at it only as a literal historical document and makes no sense. So where are you going to go for your morality and ethics?
I would go to my "God-given" conscience and ask myself if it's wrong or right. Which choice has the least amount of suffering for people? Example: Christian behaviors that lead vast amounts of people to commit suicide must be wrong. Something interesting is that morality and ethics is subjective based on culture and historical context. I remember taking a philosophy class in college about the ethics of cannibalism- it grossed me out to read it but under certain cultures, it was acceptable.

Below is an article about high rates of suicide among LGBTQIA raised in Christian families, which is connected with the wrong biblical interpretation of homosexual relationships that many churches have today. These interpretations still resemble medieval perspectives about sex and do not take into account the evolution of the meaning of the word "sodomy" throughout centuries.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/tra...oundly-flawed/
SerenityLives is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:55 AM   #43
ExChurchKid
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 88
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
I would go to my "God-given" conscience and ask myself if it's wrong or right. Which choice has the least amount of suffering for people? Example: Christian behaviors that lead vast amounts of people to commit suicide must be wrong. Something interesting is that morality and ethics is subjective based on culture and historical context. I remember taking a philosophy class in college about the ethics of cannibalism- it grossed me out to read it but under certain cultures, it was acceptable.

Below is an article about high rates of suicide among LGBTQIA raised in Christian families, which is connected with the wrong biblical interpretation of homosexual relationships that many churches have today. These interpretations still resemble medieval perspectives about sex and do not take into account the evolution of the meaning of the word "sodomy" throughout centuries.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/tra...oundly-flawed/

Hey guys,

The rest of the forum is currently more or less a disaster, but this seems like a sane thread, and actually something I'm interested in. Sorry I'm late to the party. I've often asked myself, if the Bible is supposed to be taken as the ultimate authority on God and such, how do we know the Bible is real? Like, really God-inspired. How do we know the men who wrote it down didn't mess up? Why didn't any women get to write anything? Also, what got left out? Who decided what was and wasn't in the Bible, and why do Catholics have the Apocrypha? Not to mention it's rumored that the Vatican secret library has a copy of the gospel of Thomas that no one's seen before. What's with that? Sorry if these topics have already been covered, feel free to ignore and carry on with your discussion.

Anyways, I agree that if a Christian practice causes harm to people (and having been suicidal myself, I know that driving someone to suicide is one of the worst damages that can be done), it is terrible. I don't care what the Bible or a bunch of old men say.
ExChurchKid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 08:10 AM   #44
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,112
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Whoever that guy is tell him to shut up. But I have to admit, in my case at least, he's right.
Viewing Bible heroes as examples is fine as far as it goes. But it strips them out of the biblical cosmology, the narrative context in which they act. Their heroism may or may not make any sense in a modern. Looking at the Bible that way may contribute to becoming Bible crazy.
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 08:45 AM   #45
zeek
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,112
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
I would go to my "God-given" conscience and ask myself if it's wrong or right. Which choice has the least amount of suffering for people? Example: Christian behaviors that lead vast amounts of people to commit suicide must be wrong. Something interesting is that morality and ethics is subjective based on culture and historical context. I remember taking a philosophy class in college about the ethics of cannibalism- it grossed me out to read it but under certain cultures, it was acceptable.

Below is an article about high rates of suicide among LGBTQIA raised in Christian families, which is connected with the wrong biblical interpretation of homosexual relationships that many churches have today. These interpretations still resemble medieval perspectives about sex and do not take into account the evolution of the meaning of the word "sodomy" throughout centuries.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/tra...oundly-flawed/
It seems to me that your idea about following your God-given conscience in a direction of inclusion compassion and love, is a higher vision of Christianity than the ones that push people toward suicide. The Spirit calls us to find the balance between reverence for tradition and authentic ethical innovation.

How about this? "We are here to be the site of the sacred marriage of heaven and earth of the primordial light and matter to be the place where fusion of all dimensions is affected so that divine passion through us can remake and reshape every arena and institution, every art and science of the world." (Andrew Harvey quoting an anonymous kabbalist in the forward to Zohar, translation and annotation by Daniel C. Matt)
__________________

Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86


zeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:20 AM   #46
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,114
Default Re: Origins of Christian God- Through Cultural, Historical, Anthropology le

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerenityLives View Post
I would go to my "God-given" conscience and ask myself if it's wrong or right. Which choice has the least amount of suffering for people? Example: Christian behaviors that lead vast amounts of people to commit suicide must be wrong. Something interesting is that morality and ethics is subjective based on culture and historical context. I remember taking a philosophy class in college about the ethics of cannibalism- it grossed me out to read it but under certain cultures, it was acceptable.

Below is an article about high rates of suicide among LGBTQIA raised in Christian families, which is connected with the wrong biblical interpretation of homosexual relationships that many churches have today. These interpretations still resemble medieval perspectives about sex and do not take into account the evolution of the meaning of the word "sodomy" throughout centuries.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/tra...oundly-flawed/
But we're pretty much speaking to Bible believers of long standing traditional interpretations, using traditional Bible symbology to gather meanings.

I find your link to be very educational concerning the Bible, and it's original meanings.

I wonder how others out here take it ... those that have no problem forgiving King David ... if they take it at all.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:38 AM.


3.8.9