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Old 12-10-2019, 11:11 PM   #1
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Default Partial Rapture And Dispensational Punishment

Before I became a Presbyterian, I learned a lot of theological doctrines which I considered wrong or heretical. Such doctrines were mostly based on the doctrines of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee.

Before officially leaving my local church and moving in to the Presbyterian church, I wrote this article and refuted all the nonsense to the best of my theological knowledge.

Short intro:

The partial rapture theory, more recently, was taught by the successor of Watchman Nee, namely, Witness Lee. The official website of Watchman Nee
(http://www.watchmannee.org/scriptural-teachings.html) presents some fundamental points that their theology teaches.

Some of these points are indispensable to the theological foundation of partial rapture and, also, of a sub-doctrine of partial rapture known by different designations that vary through space and time: Millennial Exclusion, Millennium Exclusion, Kingdom Exclusion and, the preferred choice of Witness Lee, Dispensational Punishment. The doctrine of ‘dispensational punishment’ is not taught by all partial rapture adherents, but by some such as Witness Lee and his ministry called Living Stream Ministry whose official website (http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooks.cfm) offers a search field that may be utilized to identify his works that teach the doctrine of ‘dispensational punishment’.

Such doctrines teaches that the elect (therefore saved and without the possibility of losing salvation) who do not watch against sin, who live in a carnal manner without repenting and, therefore, who are not ‘conquerors/overcoming’ 1 against sin in their own lives, will be cast into the ‘outer darkness,’ 2 for a period of one-thousand (1,000) literal years, during the Millennial Kingdom of Christ that, according to them, will begin after the end of the Great Tribulation, with the objective of being disciplined (or punished) by God. The term ‘outer darkness’ is interpreted as being hades, that is, hell.

Therefore, such carnal elect will be thrown into hell, not to be saved, for they arrive there already saved and without the possibility of losing salvation, but to be disciplined 3 by God in order to, at the end of the one-thousand literal years of discipline in hell, go to heaven. Thus, such discipline is understood to be the final process of sanctification of God upon the lives of His elected Christians who were carnal.

Source: https://puritanboard.com/ams/partial...punishment.28/
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Old 12-11-2019, 08:27 AM   #2
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Hi Guest,

My problem with the "outer darkness for 1,000 years for lukewarm Christians who don't walk properly" is this: Jesus taught that some who did poorly, but were given little to work with, would be punished somewhat ("a few stripes" was the term I remember), whilst those who were given much and also lagged would have worse punishment ("many stripes"). A thousand years of "outer darkness" seems to be kind of arbitrary. A miss is as good as a mile, as they say. Imagine a kingdom in which all infractions were dealt with equally. Jaywalking and littering, ten years in jail. Capital murder, also ten years in jail. Doesn't make sense to me. (See Luke 12:47,48; cf Deut 25:2).

Now, the Nee/Lee apologists may have a ready answer (I would hope so), and I don't consider myself an expert having pursued every possible explanation and permutation. But the simplistic way it was presented in the local churches, and the fact that no one could challenge the idea the way I've briefly done here, makes me rather suspect of their theology. To put it mildly.

Like most of the Nee/Lee corpus, whatever good was there, if any, got quickly turned to levers of control. The "1,000 years" were hovering over every LC attendee, if they ever became "negative" against the church leadership. I was in a meeting once where Lee said, "There is a dark place. Go there!" and he made a little shoving motion with his hands, palms down, like he was pushing trash off a table. Some people shifted and a few sisters made nervous laughing noises.

Today I look back and feel that he was transferring his anxiety and shame onto us, using his theology, and I reject that utterly. I still have to answer to God (I know) but not according to Lee's theological dictates.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:07 AM   #3
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I will admit that the particular parables do suggest that there is more to the Christian life and the life hereafter than believing and getting a ticket to heaven (no matter how you want to understand that).

At the same time, all of the references are parables and metaphors, therefore not simply stated as "this is how it is going to happen."

But it would seem that the more important thing to note is that the goal of all of such references is to move those who might appear to be falling toward the wrong end of the parables/metaphors to take corrective action. In other words, no matter what might actually be, the choice is to move in the right direction — either because you just are, or because you are chided into action due to concerns about the alternatives.

As for the "rapture," I, a life-long evangelical (Assemblies of God [1st 18 years of life], LC [next 14.5 years], then Bible churches [all years since then]) am not sure that getting into issues of a "rapture" is very important. I am not a good dispensationalist. And not a good Calvinist. And not a good Arminian. Those are all distractions from living this life in the here-and-now according to the Spirit.

Even the "wretched urgency" of getting a x# of spiritual laws tracts into everyone's hand to go out and preach the gospel is a distraction from the porpose of the Christian life and the church. Not saying that the gospel is not important. But it is not THE important thing that everyone should be constantly engaged in — other than in that our living should preach the gospel as visible bearers of the image of God.
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Old 12-12-2019, 03:26 AM   #4
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,
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
...it would seem that the more important thing to note is that the goal of all of such references is to move those who might appear to be falling toward the wrong end of the parables/metaphors to take corrective action. In other words, no matter what might actually be, the choice is to move in the right direction — either because you just are, or because you are chided into action due to concerns about the alternatives..
It seems this way to me as well. The "this means that" and "it is so clear" schools of thought have a place, but it's more circumscribed than they might wish. The only hard-and-fast is to confess Jesus, love one's fellow (in deed and not merely in word), and keep oneself unstained by the world. All that seems abundantly clear.

What confuses and discourages the youngsters is when they feel impressed upon to swallow wholecloth a system of thought that's fraying at the edges. So they either shrug and say, "Well, I guess it's a thousand years of darkness for me, then" or they reject God in toto, associating it with these unending veils of entanglement.

When really the charge all along was to love. Believe, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.
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Old 12-12-2019, 05:31 AM   #5
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,
What confuses and discourages the youngsters is when they feel impressed upon to swallow wholecloth a system of thought that's fraying at the edges. So they either shrug and say, "Well, I guess it's a thousand years of darkness for me, then" or they reject God in toto, associating it with these unending veils of entanglement.
WL, who presented us these teachings, had a team of faithful brothers / sisters surrounding him maintaining his pristine image to all the saints. He was thus portrayed as part of the perfected class of overcomers. He had arrived, he set the standard, he modeled an overcomer. Even on my best day, however, I had no chance. Neither did any of the brothers with me, most of which had also given up by then.

In the struggle to arrive, to "make it" as an overcomer, we were often deceived into doing more. More serving, more meetings, more trainings. But what was happening within my heart and my life was not the desired results. Something was obviously wrong. Like all bad teachings, the fruit of our work is the opposite of what was initially promised to us. Age old legalism repackaged as "recovery."

Thus the result is as aron said -- either a shrug of defeat or the termination of faith. What shall the downtrodden do in order to get on with their lives? We had become hopeless and helpless like the rest of Christianity. WL even called us "moo cows." He said we had become Laodicea. This old mule was tired and needed a rest. Selah or C’est la vie?
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Old 12-12-2019, 06:08 AM   #6
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Many years ago, I went with a few to visit the church in OKC. I can't remember if there was a conference or just some going to visit. But I remember on the drive back, some were talking about the whole "overcomer" issue. At one point, one brother said that in light of the parable concerning the workers who were called to go into the field at harvest over the course of a day yet all received the same pay, it seemed that the important thing was not achieving some lofty goal, but in diligently moving forward rather than standing still or falling backward.

And while I know that this will seem wrong to those who subscribe to any kind of transactional version of salvation (most evangelicals), but the key to eternal/everlasting life is to believe, not to be able to say that at some prior point in time that you believed. In other words, when the critical time comes, do you believe, or is it something you no longer subscribe to even though you believed in the past. It seems that this still allows for the assurance of salvation. If I do believe, then I am assured of salvation. If I do not believe, even though I can argue that I once believed, at this point I do not and therefore cannot be assured of salvation.

I'm not saying that is the way it is. But it suggests an analysis that is more consistent with the whole of what I find on the subject than either the banana peel loss of salvation standard, or the "I got my ticket and no one can take it" theory that ignores a long subsequent period of life that openly rejects belief.

I would expect some to trot out the " no one can take them out of my hand" defense. But is that clearly meant to infer no way to avoid the result of salvation, or only a clear statement against the "banana peel" simplicity to loss of salvation that some seem to argue?

And then, there is always the "what is believing" issue. Is it just agreeing to propositions, therefore no need for substance to the belief? Or does it require more than agreement with propositions, but a life that acts to support the belief as real?

But when it comes to the "rapture," I am convinced that in some manner, those who are alive at the time will be taken when they are. In other words, if the word rapture must be used, I believe in a pan-tribulation rapture . . . it will all pan out in the end.

As for dispensational punishment, there does seem to be at least some evidence in support of it. But if you are convinced that living inside the New J on the new earth is "getting in," then maybe being stuck outside with the nations could cause you to gnash your teeth and weep. Remember, it is a parable, so expecting real teeth-gnashing and absolute darkness (outer darkness??) may be a bit off.
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Old 12-13-2019, 03:42 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
... the key to eternal/everlasting life is to believe, not to be able to say that at some prior point in time that you believed. In other words, when the critical time comes, do you believe, or is it something you no longer subscribe to even though you believed in the past. It seems that this still allows for the assurance of salvation. If I do believe, then I am assured of salvation. If I do not believe, even though I can argue that I once believed, at this point I do not and therefore cannot be assured of salvation.
I like this consideration, especially the first sentence. "But when the Lord comes, will he find faith?" Faith is today. "Now is the hour of salvation." There's no other hour, really.

But my faith is different, today. I no longer believe a lot that was pressed on me once. (Much of it I don't disbelieve, either. There simply isn't definitive clarity. But I reject the pressure.)

But what mainly comes to mind, on this forum, is that some have come forward and said that even after years of immersion in LC "church life", up to and including FTTA, that they no longer believe in Jesus Christ. This suggests that they realise and reject what was a manufactured experience and a manipulated decision. And even as a professing Christian, I can't argue with that.

The partial rapture, the thousand-year interregnum of bliss or torment, the NJ and who are the "nations" (of whom WL taught that they live forever but don't have eternal life [???])... all this has been subject to discussion and conjecture, some of it perhaps well-founded. But the truth to me is that God loved me and sent his Son, and today is an opportunity waiting.

John 3:8 "The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." I believe that we actually can hear, according to John 3:8. There's a reason so many acclaimed Jesus as Messiah! They could hear! (Cf John 4, esp v 34) But there's a lot that we still cannot tell, according to the same verse. So a bit of deference, circumspection and reticence is in order.

"The LORD who made heaven and earth bless you from Zion." ~Psa 134

One may conceptualise this blessing variously, according to one's culturally-aligned perspective. But if I believe that there's something there, then I'll respond, in that same singular faith that motivated them of old. "Seek, and ye shall find."
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:37 AM   #8
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There is faith/belief in Christ, and there is belief in propositions.

I realize that simply saying you believe in Christ doesn't mean much if what you think of as Christ is a relic or a statue — or even a funny knot on a tree in a swamp in the Mississippi delta. So at some level, the propositions are not without importance. But when your propositions extend too far beyond the basic identifier of who Christ is, then they become excess baggage and even begin to raise questions as to who/what it is that you believe.

For example, if you feel the need to have a statement of faith concerning:
Angels
Too much detail on the trinity
The rapture (pre, mid, post, pan, etc.)
The millennium
The ministry of certain persons, living or deceased
You get the picture.
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Old 12-14-2019, 12:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
There is faith/belief in Christ, and there is belief in propositions.

I realize that simply saying you believe in Christ doesn't mean much if what you think of as Christ is a relic or a statue — or even a funny knot on a tree in a swamp in the Mississippi delta. So at some level, the propositions are not without importance. But when your propositions extend too far beyond the basic identifier of who Christ is, then they become excess baggage and even begin to raise questions as to who/what it is that you believe.

For example, if you feel the need to have a statement of faith concerning:
Angels
Too much detail on the trinity
The rapture (pre, mid, post, pan, etc.)
The millennium
The ministry of certain persons, living or deceased
You get the picture.
Nicely put. Concise, clear, and direct without overstatement. Someday, when I grow up I'll write like this. In the meantime, well...
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Old 12-15-2019, 06:32 AM   #10
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Nicely put. Concise, clear, and direct without overstatement. Someday, when I grow up I'll write like this. In the meantime, well...
I 2nd that emotion!
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Old 08-08-2020, 12:22 PM   #11
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I too was part of the local church while in college. I was very grateful for their clear teaching on the soul and the spirit and how God is filling us up with Himself to achieve His eternal purpose. I broke with them to some degree about the partial rapture. the Bible teaches their are only 3 Resurrections all in order. This is found in 1 Cor 15 the Resurrection chapter.

1 Corinthians 15:23-26 King James Version (KJV)

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So we see the firstfruits have already happened. Since the rapture and resurrection happen at the same time.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 King James Version (KJV)

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice that in verse 15 it calls this Rapture (Caught Up-vs 17) the coming of the Lord. This is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The Rapture and the 1st Resurrection and the Second Coming all are synonymous terms. So then since the 2nd Resurrection happens at the Great White Throne.

Revelation 20:11-15 King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The first resurrection is the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10)

I was taught that only the Mature Christians would be Raptured. To state a partial rapture would be to state a partial resurrection a thing that I can find no where in the scriptures. Yet a full rapture is taught in scripture as follows.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

"we shall all be changed" All means all not partial like what is taught. If you are physically dead but in Christ you also will be raised. Now the argument is this.

Matthew 13:39
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

The harvest is the end of the world. Mature fruit will be harvested before green or immature fruit. Heres the thing a mature believer can be carnal as well as a baby believer. At any moment in time that person can set his mind on the flesh or set his mind on the spirit. He can at any moment be receiving life (spirit) or death (flesh). We as Christians have 2 natures one from Adam (1st birth) and one from Christ (2nd birth). We choose which one we will feed. These 2 are at war within us but thanks be to the Lord Jesus who will one day change this corruptible body to be like His incorruptible body and we will be fully saturated with His Life and have a glorious body like His. Amen. So you see there is no partial rapture. We all go up. We are all a part of the body. Even in our body some cells are brand new (new believers( and some are older) but guess what they are all in the body! So they all get to go up. They will receive different rewards (Matt 16:27) at this coming of Jesus in the clouds some will suffer loss and some works will be rewarded based on if they stayed in the spirit vs in the flesh which will be burned up works. God bless and stay in the spirit but don't worry you belong to Christ He purchased you and will take you up. You will not be caught unaware as a thief in the night because you are children of the light and children of the day. So God bless you and keep looking up for the Saviour because your redemption draweth nigh.
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Old 08-09-2020, 09:04 AM   #12
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The harvest is the end of the world. Mature fruit will be harvested before green or immature fruit. Heres the thing a mature believer can be carnal as well as a baby believer. At any moment in time that person can set his mind on the flesh or set his mind on the spirit. He can at any moment be receiving life (spirit) or death (flesh). We as Christians have 2 natures one from Adam (1st birth) and one from Christ (2nd birth). We choose which one we will feed. These 2 are at war within us but thanks be to the Lord Jesus who will one day change this corruptible body to be like His incorruptible body and we will be fully saturated with His Life and have a glorious body like His. Amen. So you see there is no partial rapture. We all go up. We are all a part of the body. Even in our body some cells are brand new (new believers( and some are older) but guess what they are all in the body! So they all get to go up. They will receive different rewards (Matt 16:27) at this coming of Jesus in the clouds some will suffer loss and some works will be rewarded based on if they stayed in the spirit vs in the flesh which will be burned up works. God bless and stay in the spirit but don't worry you belong to Christ He purchased you and will take you up. You will not be caught unaware as a thief in the night because you are children of the light and children of the day. So God bless you and keep looking up for the Saviour because your redemption draweth nigh.
Yes, the rewards, or loss thereof, are very clear. There is an accountability for what we do with the Son ("Christ in you the hope of glory") and the grace we've been given in the new covenant. Of this I am sure. I am less sure about the rapture details and what you've stated. For instance, how about what Jesus tells the church in Philadelphia in Rev 3:10, "I will save you from the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole inhabited world"? Each of the seven churches received a special promise, specifically for them. Are we to assume these promises were for all the other six churches too?
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:43 PM   #13
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I would like to add my thoughts and to expand on what was written below.

Although I do not believe in a partial rapture in that the luke warm or carnal but born again Christians will be left behind etc.. I do believe there are many raptures.

1) Enoch was the first to get raptured.. He walked with God and was not because God took him.

2) Next came Elijah. 2nd kings chapter 2. He, Elisha and the sons of the prophets even knew the exact day he was taken up to heaven. (Thus I believe when the trumpet is sounded we too will know it's time for us to be caught up.)

3a)Jesus imho was raptured twice. When He resurrected, He told Mary Magdalene "“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

3b) Jesus then ascended (raptured) again in Acts 1:9 He was taken up into a cloud while they were watching, and they could no longer see Him.

4) Then 1 Thessalonians 4:17 speaks of the rapture of the church. Everyone who is washed and cleansed in the Blood of the Lamb is an overcomer regardless of how they lived. The Blood of Jesus is the key to entering heaven. But rewards will be distributed differently.

On a sidenote, I believe based on 1 Corinthians 15:52-53 that those of us alive at the time the Trumpet is blown will remain here for a short time. When the dead in Christ are resurrected they will receive their Glorified bodies immediately and will be caught up to the clouds and meet Jesus in the air. They go first. The scripture says however "we who are alive AND REMAIN"...

For umpteen years I could not figure out why it says WE REMAIN. (I'm pretty sure I figured it out with the help of some bible teachers). In the twinkling of an eye, in the blink of an eye the dead in Christ and those of us who are alive and remain will receive our Glorified bodies at the same time.
The dead in Christ though are caught up right away to meet Jesus in the air.
We who are alive, will remain in our Glorified bodies for a short time as witnesses.

The pattern I see here is when Jesus resurrected many saints resurrected with Him and were seen in Jerusalem.
End of sidenote.

Next:
5) After the rapture 144,00 Jews will be sealed with the Seal of God on their foreheads (Revelation 7:3)

I believe (but not absolute certain) they will be raptured. For in Chapter 14 they are in heaven, standing on Mt. Zion with the LAMB.

6) Let's not forget about the 2 witnesses in Chapter 11:12
But after the three and a half days, the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were watching them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them.

I also think that right before the 2nd coming of Christ in which every eye will see HIM, 7) the final harvest (rapture) will take place when an angel flies in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Revelation 14:6

And there you have it: my thoughts on the rapture.. No partial rapture but I made my case for many raptures.

Carol


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The harvest is the end of the world. ... So you see there is no partial rapture. We all go up. We are all a part of the body. ... God bless and stay in the spirit but don't worry you belong to Christ He purchased you and will take you up. You will not be caught unaware as a thief in the night because you are children of the light and children of the day. So God bless you and keep looking up for the Saviour because your redemption draweth nigh.
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Old 08-10-2020, 02:02 PM   #14
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I would like to add my thoughts and to expand on what was written below.

Although I do not believe in a partial rapture in that the luke warm or carnal but born again Christians will be left behind etc.. I do believe there are many raptures.
Great list of the many raptures, Carol!

Concerning partial rapture, what about the promise to the church in Philadelphia to save them out of the "hour of trial", which I take to mean the tribulation period? If one thinks there will be one big pre-trib rapture of all the saints, then maybe this promise would seem to apply to everyone. But why would He single out the "church of love" (Philadelphia means love; and the only church besides Smyrna that didn't get a reprimand) with what appears to be a special promise just to them, to keep them from that hour? (that is, if the promise was to keep all Christians from that testing time)
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Old 08-10-2020, 09:09 PM   #15
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Default Re: Partial Rapture And Dispensational Punishment

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Great list of the many raptures, Carol!

Concerning partial rapture, what about the promise to the church in Philadelphia to save them out of the "hour of trial", which I take to mean the tribulation period? If one thinks there will be one big pre-trib rapture of all the saints, then maybe this promise would seem to apply to everyone. But why would He single out the "church of love" (Philadelphia means love; and the only church besides Smyrna that didn't get a reprimand) with what appears to be a special promise just to them, to keep them from that hour? (that is, if the promise was to keep all Christians from that testing time)
Thanks for reading the list and getting something out of it STG. Now to your question let me start by saying UH OH! Gulp! What I'm going to share is something very, very few Christians have given any thought to. I did not realize what I will share until 6 months ago. So this is very, very new insight. I myself am still processing it.

So let me begin. First take a good look at Revelation 3:8-11 Read it slowly a few times if need be.
Quote:
‘I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name.

9 Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.
So like everyone who has read Revelation 2 & 3 and studied it under Christian teachers, we have been conditioned to believe that because the scriptures say: To the 7 churches etc..., it is written to the Gentile Christian church, it is written to us. Watchman Nee wrote a very interesting take on the churches in his book 'The orthodoxy of the church'. The first time I read it, I was very intrigued by it. The next time around, I found some of it biased. Of course Lee had edited the original text I think.. Either way, it was about the gentile church..Smyrna suffered, Thyatira was/is the RCC, Laodecia the lukewarm church...

But here's some food for thought: What does the gentile church have to do with the synagogue of Satan? The scripture states: Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you.

I have read many opinions of what that means.

Now take a look at Revelation 7:2-4
Quote:
I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
When we depart, we will be passing the baton if you will to the 144,000 Jewish bondservants from the tribes of ISRAEL. So if you think outside the box, it looks like God is speaking to the 144k in Revelation 3:9 not to 'us'.

I know this thought is wayyyyy, wayyy out there. You might be scratching your head saying "What planet are your from??"

There is a lot more to the 7 churches but to your question, I will just say I no longer believe the letters to the 7 churches were/are written to us. They are written to the 144,000 Israelites from the 12 tribes of Israel who have the seal of God on their foreheads. They believe in Christ as the Messiah. But the Jews who are from the synagogue of Satan do not. They are like the Pharisees and Saducees.
But God says: I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. Do you really think He is talking to us??? We are already out of here. And now God is going to rescue Israel, His wife. He has always loved Israel. They should have been the first to go. But they rejected Jesus..and thus the first (Israel) shall be last and the last (the gentile church) shall be first.

There is a book called "Kingdom of priests" you can download
A Kingdom of Priests (Kindle, FREE):
https://tinyurl.com/AKingdomOfPriests...

OR
Smashwords eBooks (FREE):
https://tinyurl.com/BrendaWeltnerSmas...

OR
for a small fee you can purchase the book from Amazon
A Kingdom of Priests: The Stories of Revelation (Paperback):
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08...

you can also watch the teachings on you tube:
The Tribulation:
https://youtu.be/fjiBEvj-3gM

and there is a playlist of about 16-17 short videos on
Letters to the 7 Churches Playlist:
https://tinyurl.com/BWeltner7Churches

It took guts for me to share what I did because this is stuff we have never been taught. Blessings to all as we see the day soon approaching.
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:52 AM   #16
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It took guts for me to share what I did because this is stuff we have never been taught. Blessings to all as we see the day soon approaching.
Breathe, Carole! Good points.

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Old 08-11-2020, 09:53 AM   #17
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Thanks for reading the list and getting something out of it STG. Now to your question let me start by saying UH OH! Gulp! What I'm going to share is something very, very few Christians have given any thought to. I did not realize what I will share until 6 months ago. So this is very, very new insight. I myself am still processing it.

It took guts for me to share what I did because this is stuff we have never been taught. Blessings to all as we see the day soon approaching.
Thanks for sharing! I'll put that in the ol' "pipe" and smoke on it. My first impression is - why would He write it only to the Jewish churches? All the churches being written to are in Asia, and considered Gentile churches, are they not? (there were often a number of Jewish believers in those churches) And Paul's observation that there is neither Jew nor Greek and that we are all one in Christ. Philadelphia had many Jews there, but it was Roman City. Old Covenant practicing Jews were always "spying out" the freedoms their believing kinsmen had, therefore that this was also happening in Philadelphia isn't unique.

But it is something to consider. I remember an older, learned brother a few years ago said that he'd seen that the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 was actually speaking about the Jewish believers. He went into the history of how the wedding feast was carried out back then, with all the different parties and customs. I'm still chewing on all that (back-burner stuff). And I hear different ones apply this concept to different passages, that is, that it pertains specifically and only to Jews and not anyone else.

If this is the case, may the Lord show us what He will in this matter.
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Old 08-11-2020, 03:18 PM   #18
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It is true there is no Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus. But Paul was not given the vision of the Tribulation. It was first given to Jesus to give to His bond-servants. Correct me if I'm wrong here but when "bond-servants" are mentioned in the scriptures, they are referred to as the Jewish Israelites.

So in Revelation 1:1 we read that
God gave the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His bond-servant John to show to His bond-servants through an angel of the things which must soon take place.

Quote:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
We gentiles are privileged to see the future as the Jewish people have not read Revelation. Not that we understand it all..but it is the Christian church who has been trying to figure it all out.

Just remember JOHN the apostle was given the entire vision of the book of Revelation, not Paul.

As to the 10 virgins.. yes, your more 'seasoned' brother is correct that they are Jewish people. See. Jesus disciples were all Jewish. He came to the Jews first. We have been led to believe by not just the LC but by Christian preachers, 5 of the virgins were fake Christians for they did not have oil (the Holy Spirit) in their lamps. Or those 5 virgins let their oil run out, meaning they became lukewarm. But.. even though the Jews do not read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, not everything in the gospels applies to us. Jesus was telling His followers their future. He knew that in time, it was going to be the gentiles that were going to take the gospel to the world, not the Jews.

But it will be their job through the 144,000k of the 12 tribes of Israel and the 2 witnesses to take the gospel to the world during the Tribulation.

So the virgins in Matthew 25 are the friends of the bridegroom..not the bride. The Bride is inside with the Bridegroom.

There is more I can share but this is enough for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Thanks for sharing! I'll put that in the ol' "pipe" and smoke on it. My first impression is - why would He write it only to the Jewish churches? All the churches being written to are in Asia, and considered Gentile churches, are they not? (there were often a number of Jewish believers in those churches) And Paul's observation that there is neither Jew nor Greek and that we are all one in Christ. Philadelphia had many Jews there, but it was Roman City. Old Covenant practicing Jews were always "spying out" the freedoms their believing kinsmen had, therefore that this was also happening in Philadelphia isn't unique.

But it is something to consider. I remember an older, learned brother a few years ago said that he'd seen that the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 was actually speaking about the Jewish believers. He went into the history of how the wedding feast was carried out back then, with all the different parties and customs. I'm still chewing on all that (back-burner stuff). And I hear different ones apply this concept to different passages, that is, that it pertains specifically and only to Jews and not anyone else.

If this is the case, may the Lord show us what He will in this matter.
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Old 08-11-2020, 03:48 PM   #19
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It is true there is no Jew or Greek in Christ Jesus. But Paul was not given the vision of the Tribulation. It was first given to Jesus to give to His bond-servants. Correct me if I'm wrong here but when "bond-servants" are mentioned in the scriptures, they are referred to as the Jewish Israelites.

So in Revelation 1:1 we read that
God gave the Revelation of Jesus Christ to His bond-servant John to show to His bond-servants through an angel of the things which must soon take place.
Had not heard that, re: "bond servants" being only Jews. Has anybody else heard this before?
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Old 08-11-2020, 08:29 PM   #20
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Had not heard that, re: "bond servants" being only Jews. Has anybody else heard this before?
The Nazarites in Numbers 6 were bond servants, but the N.T. also refers to the disciples as slaves/bond servants in many places.
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Old 08-11-2020, 08:52 PM   #21
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The Nazarites in Numbers 6 were bond servants, but the N.T. also refers to the disciples as slaves/bond servants in many places.
So it means only Jews could be bond-servants - as the point is being made about the Lord's speaking in Rev 1?
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:37 PM   #22
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So it means only Jews could be bond-servants - as the point is being made about the Lord's speaking in Rev 1?
I'm not buying that.
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:14 AM   #23
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The Nazarites in Numbers 6 were bond servants, but the N.T. also refers to the disciples as slaves/bond servants in many places.
True. The disciples were Jews. And was not the early church composed of mostly converted Jews? I don't see where the converted gentiles are called bond-servants in the flesh so to speak. It does not mean I am correct. I could be wrong. Just saying and noting what I am observing.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:45 PM   #24
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Many are wondering “what is going on”? All the key points that I am going to share I have already shared in my blog (christianforums.com -- ZNP), but for the sake of putting everyone at ease I will put it all together here. On September 15th in Washington D.C. Trump brokered a peace deal between Israel and two Arab nations for Jerusalem to belong to Israel and so that they could rebuild the temple. According to Daniel that signifies the start of the 70th week. The age of Israel was broken into 70 weeks, at the end of the 69th week they crucified Jesus and God’s move with them ceased. That was the beginning of the age of grace, the church age. The church age ended with the signing of that treaty. (The afternoon of September 15th in Washington D.C, is September 16th in Jerusalem. That was a significant day on the Essene calendar). As a result there has been tremendous speculation among many Christians that the rapture would take place during Yom Teruah, the blowing of the trumpets. Revelation 4 begins with “after these things” referring to the church age, after the church age, a door was opened in heaven. Yom Teruah refers to the opening of the gates of heaven. Then a voice like a trumpet called to John to “come up here”. This of course is similar to the rapture, it is also a direct reference to the Lord’s word “you shall not see me again until you say ‘blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord’. On the sabbath prior to a man getting married he would be “called up” to read from the Torah. When he approached the entire congregation would say “blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord”. Yom Teruah is known as the festival where “no one knows the day nor the hour”. This festival occurs on the new moon, it requires two witnesses to carefully watch the moon and once they see the new moon to go report to the Sanhedrin who will announce the day with the blowing of trumpets. When asked about the Lord’s return he told the disciples that “no one knows the day nor the hour”. He also said “except for my Father in heaven”. That is another direct reference to the marriage of the Lamb. In the Jewish tradition the man makes a contract with a woman to get married. That is the engagement contract and he pays a price for her. Jesus paid the price for us and we have the New Testament as our engagement contract. He then goes to prepare a place for her, just as Jesus said He had gone to prepare a place for us. However, it is the Father that will determine when
everything is ready. So that was a second reason that many saints became quite excited about this festival (September 19th and 20th). This festival is also referred to as “the concealed day”. A day is 24 hours but this day doesn’t begin at sundown, rather it begins when they see the new moon, so you have to give yourself a two day window for that day. Also, during this day they blow the trumpet 100 times, eleven sets of nine and then one final blast. The final blast is called “the last trump”. The rapture begins with the “trump of God” and the dead in Christ are raised first. Paul calls this “the last trump” in 1Corinthians 15. Again, signifying when the rapture would take place. So then, what is going on? Didn’t God promise?
I am giving you the account of the coronation of Solomon because it prefigures the coronation of the heavenly Jesus. King David signifies Jesus earthly ministry which has reigned right up until September 16th. The story of the cross, the death and burial of Jesus, His resurrection from the dead, and the church age. The condition of the church is foreshadowed with several pictures in this account. You have David who is ready to die, like Sardis. You have the Shunamite woman who is neither hot nor cold, like Laodicea. You have the deep things of Satan seen in Thyatira trying to usurp the throne depicted by Adonijah and those with him, setting up their own Pope. And, you have the faithful servants of the Lord, (Zadok the priest, Benaiah son of Jehoiada, Nathan the prophet, Shimei and Rei and David’s special guard did not join Adonijah). The church in Philadelphia is typified by Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon. So at Solomon’s coronation you see three groups of people. There are the faithful witnesses watching for the fulfillment of the promises, you have those who were misled to follow Adonijah, and you have those in open rebellion against the Lord. When they see that Solomon is crowned King those that were misled immediately flee, and the rebellious ask not to be judged. After Yom Teruah there are ten days of awe, during this time the books are opened and the Lord puts the people into three groups. The faithful servants, the foolish and lazy servants who were sleeping, and the wicked who belong to Satan.
So then we come to the great sign in heaven that John talks about in Revelation 12. A woman crowned with 12 stars, clothed with the sun, the moon is under her feet and she is in travail to give birth to the man child. This sign has only occurred twice in human history, the first time was 3915 BC, and is considered the sign depicting the first prophecy concerning Jesus

“the seed of the woman will crush the serpent’s head but he will bruise His heel”. The book of Revelation reveals that Jesus is the “first and the last”, the “alpha and the omega”. This sign acts as wonderful bookends to God’s redemptive plan for man. This sign appeared on September 23rd, 2017. It was preceded by a full solar eclipse over Washington D.C. Now many Christians will scoff at this as “astrology” a vile and condemned practice. Psalm 19 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, The glory of God is Jesus Christ, His handiwork is His redemption. This story is placed in the 12 constellations of the ecliptic (the line gone throughout all the earth). If you look at the stars you would never be able to see those animals and creatures, God proclaimed his gospel plan in pictures in the heavens for all to see regardless of the language they spoke. Daniel understood this and told the Magi what sign they should look for, which is why they came to Jerusalem claiming to have seen Jesus star. Job refers to this extensively in his book. Balaam’s prophecy refers to a sign in the stars. In Genesis God made the stars for “signs”, not just for days, seasons and years. The two big signs are Jesus first coming and His second coming. So, let’s not scoff at God’s design, ​Psalm 19:11 ​Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.​ ​If we can be warned by them so much the better. So then on September 23rd this sign was seen. In the Jewish wedding the bride circles the groom three times before the wedding begins. The earth has circled the sun three times since this sign appeared. But it wasn’t quite three times by September 20th, so what is going on? Again, the ten days of awe are called the “Jacob’s trouble” and are understood to refer to the tribulation. However, in Daniels prophecy the tribulation is only 1 week, seven days. The days of awe are also when Jesus is discerning who is who (good and faithful servant who enters into the joy of the Lord, wicked and lazy servant cast out into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and those who belong to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet). Also, that last trump on Yom Teruah woke up the dead who are to rise first. So then if it takes three days for the first group to be selected, then that will leave three and half days to determine who is in the second group, and the last three and half years will be for that third group. So although I have not read anyone having this

theory, I will still present it to you. When you read the story of the wise and foolish virgins it says the Lord comes “at the midnight hour”. At first I tried to look to see if that was the custom but common sense took over. Obviously that was not the custom. Weddings have people of every age from young babies to the very elderly. Who ever heard of a wedding feast beginning with a midnight procession? You would have to be the coolest dude in the Universe, the “Fonze” for eternity. The expositors say that “this was obviously at a time later than the virgins had expected”. So in this theory the last trump of Yom Teruah was to wake up the “sleeping” virgins (the dead) and then at the Trump of God on the 23rd, 3 days later, they will rise first.
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Old 09-21-2020, 02:18 PM   #25
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Default Re: Partial Rapture And Dispensational Punishment

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Many are wondering “what is going on”? All the key points that I am going to share I have already shared in my blog (christianforums.com -- ZNP), but for the sake of putting everyone at ease I will put it all together here. On September 15th in Washington D.C. Trump brokered a peace deal between Israel and two Arab nations for Jerusalem to belong to Israel and so that they could rebuild the temple.
Can you provide a specific source for this "rebuilding the temple" idea as part of this deal (I couldn't find anything about it)?

And I can imagine it if several additional Arab countries sign on to this, but so far it's just the two, right?
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Old 09-21-2020, 03:33 PM   #26
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BRAVO!!BRAVO!!

I don’t know if anyone on this forum has read or heard elsewhere what you posted. But I have, and applaud you for your well, easy to read and understandable post.

I was around for the Revelation 12 sign. There was a lot of hoopla in September 2017. I was with a bunch on pins and needles back then.

It has taken me a while to understand that the Revelation 12 sign actually occurred on September 23, 2017. But God certainly created the sun, moon and stars for signs.

It was this year that I understood the book of Revelation is not written in chronological order. Just consider how we see Mystery Babylon destroyed, the Beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire, the Holy city New Jerusalem coming down from God out of heaven, the thousand year reign, Satan released for a little while, the great White throne judgement, then ending the book with Come Lord Jesus. If it was in chronological order, how then does it make sense, the book ends with “yes. I am coming quickly. Come Lord Jesus. So for those who might not believe the Revelation 12 sign happened, this is why I emphasized the book of Revelation is not written in chronological order.

Revelation may not be easy to understand as there are many puzzles within a puzzle. But God is opening our eyes to understand it, slowly but surely.

Also for clarification for those who might not understand, Yom Teruah is also called Rosh Ha Shanna and feast of Trumpets. Ten days later is Feast of Atonement or Yom Kipper and about 5 days later, The feast of Tabernacles is celebrated.

The 7 feasts of the Lord are listed In Leviticus 23. They are appointed well as
Prophetic feasts pointing to Christ.
1) Passover.. Jesus died on Passover.
2) Unleavened bread. Jesus was buried on feast of unleavened bread or was in the grave for sure.
3). First fruits. Jesus not only resurrected on feast of first Fruits but is the first fruits.
4) feast of weeks...Pentecost.. Holy Spirit envelops 120 people in the upper room.

The feasts left to be fulfilled by Jesus are
5) Feast of Trumpets
6) feast of. Atonement and
7) feast of Tabernacles

Thanks for sharing ZNP!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Many are wondering “what is going on”? All the key points that I am going to share I have already shared in my blog (christianforums.com -- ZNP), but for the sake of putting everyone at ease I will put it all together here. On September 15th in Washington D.C. Trump brokered a peace deal between Israel and two Arab nations for Jerusalem to belong to Israel and so that they could rebuild the temple. According to Daniel that signifies the start of the 70th week. The age of Israel was broken into 70 weeks, at the end of the 69th week they crucified Jesus and God’s move with them ceased. That was the beginning of the age of grace, the church age. The church age ended with the signing of that treaty. (The afternoon of September 15th in Washington D.C, is September 16th in Jerusalem. That was a significant day on the Essene calendar). As a result there has been tremendous speculation among many Christians that the rapture would take place during Yom Teruah, the blowing of the trumpets. Revelation 4 begins with “after these things” referring to the church age, after the church age, a door was opened in heaven. Yom Teruah refers to the opening of the gates of heaven. Then a voice like a trumpet called to John to “come up here”. This of course is similar to the rapture, it is also a direct reference to the Lord’s word “you shall not see me again until you say ‘blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord’. On the sabbath prior to a man getting married he would be “called up” to read from the Torah. When he approached the entire congregation would say “blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord”. Yom Teruah is known as the festival where “no one knows the day nor the hour”. This festival occurs on the new moon, it requires two witnesses to carefully watch the moon and once they see the new moon to go report to the Sanhedrin who will announce the day with the blowing of trumpets. When asked about the Lord’s return he told the disciples that “no one knows the day nor the hour”. He also said “except for my Father in heaven”. That is another direct reference to the marriage of the Lamb. In the Jewish tradition the man makes a contract with a woman to get married. That is the engagement contract and he pays a price for her. Jesus paid the price for us and we have the New Testament as our engagement contract. He then goes to prepare a place for her, just as Jesus said He had gone to prepare a place for us. However, it is the Father that will determine when
everything is ready. So that was a second reason that many saints became quite excited about this festival (September 19th and 20th). This festival is also referred to as “the concealed day”. A day is 24 hours but this day doesn’t begin at sundown, rather it begins when they see the new moon, so you have to give yourself a two day window for that day. Also, during this day they blow the trumpet 100 times, eleven sets of nine and then one final blast. The final blast is called “the last trump”. The rapture begins with the “trump of God” and the dead in Christ are raised first. Paul calls this “the last trump” in 1Corinthians 15. Again, signifying when the rapture would take place. So then, what is going on? Didn’t God promise?
I am giving you the account of the coronation of Solomon because it prefigures the coronation of the heavenly Jesus. King David signifies Jesus earthly ministry which has reigned right up until September 16th. The story of the cross, the death and burial of Jesus, His resurrection from the dead, and the church age. The condition of the church is foreshadowed with several pictures in this account. You have David who is ready to die, like Sardis. You have the Shunamite woman who is neither hot nor cold, like Laodicea. You have the deep things of Satan seen in Thyatira trying to usurp the throne depicted by Adonijah and those with him, setting up their own Pope. And, you have the faithful servants of the Lord, (Zadok the priest, Benaiah son of Jehoiada, Nathan the prophet, Shimei and Rei and David’s special guard did not join Adonijah). The church in Philadelphia is typified by Bathsheba, the mother of Solomon. So at Solomon’s coronation you see three groups of people. There are the faithful witnesses watching for the fulfillment of the promises, you have those who were misled to follow Adonijah, and you have those in open rebellion against the Lord. When they see that Solomon is crowned King those that were misled immediately flee, and the rebellious ask not to be judged. After Yom Teruah there are ten days of awe, during this time the books are opened and the Lord puts the people into three groups. The faithful servants, the foolish and lazy servants who were sleeping, and the wicked who belong to Satan.
So then we come to the great sign in heaven that John talks about in Revelation 12. A woman crowned with 12 stars, clothed with the sun, the moon is under her feet and she is in travail to give birth to the man child. This sign has only occurred twice in human history, the first time was 3915 BC, and is considered the sign depicting the first prophecy concerning Jesus

“the seed of the woman will crush the serpent’s head but he will bruise His heel”. The book of Revelation reveals that Jesus is the “first and the last”, the “alpha and the omega”. This sign acts as wonderful bookends to God’s redemptive plan for man. This sign appeared on September 23rd, 2017. It was preceded by a full solar eclipse over Washington D.C. Now many Christians will scoff at this as “astrology” a vile and condemned practice. Psalm 19 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. 2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. 4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, The glory of God is Jesus Christ, His handiwork is His redemption. This story is placed in the 12 constellations of the ecliptic (the line gone throughout all the earth). If you look at the stars you would never be able to see those animals and creatures, God proclaimed his gospel plan in pictures in the heavens for all to see regardless of the language they spoke. Daniel understood this and told the Magi what sign they should look for, which is why they came to Jerusalem claiming to have seen Jesus star. Job refers to this extensively in his book. Balaam’s prophecy refers to a sign in the stars. In Genesis God made the stars for “signs”, not just for days, seasons and years. The two big signs are Jesus first coming and His second coming. So, let’s not scoff at God’s design, ​Psalm 19:11 ​Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.​ ​If we can be warned by them so much the better. So then on September 23rd this sign was seen. In the Jewish wedding the bride circles the groom three times before the wedding begins. The earth has circled the sun three times since this sign appeared. But it wasn’t quite three times by September 20th, so what is going on? Again, the ten days of awe are called the “Jacob’s trouble” and are understood to refer to the tribulation. However, in Daniels prophecy the tribulation is only 1 week, seven days. The days of awe are also when Jesus is discerning who is who (good and faithful servant who enters into the joy of the Lord, wicked and lazy servant cast out into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth and those who belong to Satan, the Antichrist, and the false prophet). Also, that last trump on Yom Teruah woke up the dead who are to rise first. So then if it takes three days for the first group to be selected, then that will leave three and half days to determine who is in the second group, and the last three and half years will be for that third group. So although I have not read anyone having this

theory, I will still present it to you. When you read the story of the wise and foolish virgins it says the Lord comes “at the midnight hour”. At first I tried to look to see if that was the custom but common sense took over. Obviously that was not the custom. Weddings have people of every age from young babies to the very elderly. Who ever heard of a wedding feast beginning with a midnight procession? You would have to be the coolest dude in the Universe, the “Fonze” for eternity. The expositors say that “this was obviously at a time later than the virgins had expected”. So in this theory the last trump of Yom Teruah was to wake up the “sleeping” virgins (the dead) and then at the Trump of God on the 23rd, 3 days later, they will rise first.
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Old 11-18-2020, 07:12 AM   #27
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Default Re: Partial Rapture And Dispensational Punishment

I heard a brother speak this last Sunday on Philippians chapter 3 about "the goal and the prize." It was perhaps the best, most practical speaking I've heard on this matter of rewards and potential loss thereof. Not a fear thing, but an encouragement thing! I thought to post this video link as it may be helpful to others - it was to me!

Let us run the race, forgetting what's behind and stretching forward to pursue Christ with the other runners with us!

Pursuing for the Prize!
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