I need a church life that isn't led astray!!!

[byHismercy]

Hi saints. I would like your guidance. We moved out of Washington state after God opened the way for us, after our painful exit from the LC in 'anonymous city'.......the Lord is gracious and merciful to me and my family and we live in a beautiful little community in Idaho now. I have been searching church statement of faith and various 'what we believe' pages online trying to find a new congregation to meet with. This little community church near us seems to be special in many ways and ticks boxes for me. We visited there last weekend and I had really good feelings and I even wonder if this is the Lords' choice for us....but discovered they are reformed which I have questions about. I spoke to the pastors wife and she was open and sweet and let me know they believe that God did not die for everybody, only His elect. And one of their positions is holding to the faith that we have no free will in coming to Christ but rather only those elect will come to faith in Him.

I don't share these beliefs. For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

They come so close but no cigar. So many sweet things there. A reverence for the Lord, the pastor is awesome and diligent to know the word, they obviously cherish Gods' word, their position on all other points align with the word as much as I can see.

I fear taking my kids into the same ol' same ol' direction where a deviation from scripture leads to wrong believing, wrong thinking, wrong actions. I mean, we all have seen it play out. There is a real and legitimate danger. And I believe when scripture said a little leaven leavens the whole lump He was warning us about leavened doctrine....and maybe other kinds of leaven that I do not see yet.....

Please, brothers and sisters, what is your take? Where is the assembly without error?? I cannot seem to find them....I asked the Lord to choose the assembly, to take me to it. Please what would you do?

byHismercy

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I fear taking my kids into the same ol' same ol' direction where a deviation from scripture leads to wrong believing, wrong thinking, wrong actions. I mean, we all have seen it play out. There is a real and legitimate danger. And I believe when scripture said a little leaven leavens the whole lump He was warning us about leavened doctrine....and maybe other kinds of leaven that I do not see yet.....

Please, brothers and sisters, what is your take? Where is the assembly without error?? I cannot seem to find them....I asked the Lord to choose the assembly, to take me to it. Please what would you do?

Beware - if you ask 50 Christian's this question, you will get 35 different answers. Not that any of them are more wrong or right, but folks have different ways of solving problems such as this.

Now I'll give you my own answer: seek first the kingdom of God, and everything else will be added. The kingdom is near, it is in your heart and in your mouth. In is waiting. It can be found in that person nearby, the proverbial 'neighbour' who's perhaps asking the same questions as you.

Do not seek the kingdom ready-made in some 'proper church' but rather seek it not-yet-made-but-becoming in your fellows. At some point(s) it may assume fixed structure(s), but at others it may seem entirely fluid or even unknown.

If your children see you and your spouse consistently in love, cherishing them and each other and attempting to provide a safe and interesting family space, they will be encouraged to seek and follow and obey. And they will find spiritually oriented peers and mentors as well. God will provide.

On the LC we sang, "Home, home in the church/It is here that we've ended our search." That is a lie. Our home is with the Father in heaven. Jesus had no place to call home (Matt 8:20; Luke 9:58), neither should we. "My kingdom is not of this world". Yet Jesus consistently poured out the Father's love to all who drew near. How can we not but desire to follow, and imitate? And yes, it may be in some formal, structured setting. But it does not require one. Wherever you are, that is where you are.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by aron

Beware - if you ask 50 Christian's this question, you will get 35 different answers. Not that any of them are more wrong or right, but folks have different ways of solving problems such as this.

Now I'll give you my own answer: seek first the kingdom of God, and everything else will be added. The kingdom is near, it is in your heart and in your mouth. In is waiting. It can be found in that person nearby, the proverbial 'neighbour' who's perhaps asking the same questions as you.

Do not seek the kingdom ready-made in some 'proper church' but rather seek it not-yet-made-but-becoming in your fellows. At some point(s) it may assume fixed structure(s), but at others it may seem entirely fluid or even unknown.

If your children see you and your spouse consistently in love, cherishing them and each other and attempting to provide a safe and interesting family space, they will be encouraged to seek and follow and obey. And they will find spiritually oriented peers and mentors as well. God will provide.

On the LC we sang, "Home, home in the church/It is here that we've ended our search." That is a lie. Our home is with the Father in heaven. Jesus had no place to call home (Matt 8:20; Luke 9:58), neither should we. "My kingdom is not of this world". Yet Jesus consistently poured out the Father's love to all who drew near. How can we not but desire to follow, and imitate? And yes, it may be in some formal, structured setting. But it does not require one. Wherever you are, that is where you are.

Great answer aron!

[aron]

Originally Posted by JB482

Great answer aron!

JB thank you for the kind affirmation.

In retrospect I didn't engage the body of the initial post, with regard to understanding scripture correctly, and the impact that can have on one's spiritual life, both with the Lord and with others in assembly. Kevin has come along and attempted to address some of the points made. I love how this little forum allows for different points of view, interpretations, and understandings of scripture. Such a plurality of opinions, if respectfully made and engaging of others (rather than 'talking past' each other) can only be a good testimony of the common faith, once delivered to all.

I would add this: I consider the idea of 'volition' and 'free will' (along with 'determinism' and such) to be fascinating, and as a former addict (others would say 'recovering addict') it is not mere speculative fluff. "Oh, wretched mortal man that I am! Who can save me?!?" &c.

I would merely add to the points made already that what matters is not what Calvin thought, or Augustine, or Witness Lee. What matters is what the 1st-century Jews (and the Gentile converts) thought. Because that alone gives proper context to the NT. And remember, not all of them thought the same things - some of them, for example, didn't believe in the resurrection from the dead. Even some Christians didn't believe, if you read Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians (15:12-14)!

So even though assuming some monolithic, 'orthodox position' that we must by our own logic and word studies re-create in toto in our assemblies today, whether Idaho USA or Zimbabwe Africa, seems a bit optimistic - sorry LSM - we should endevour to track this down, what was meant when the apostle wrote this or that. In fact I do nothing but this on my spare time, but read intelligent and informed people who write and talk about these kinds of things. But ultimately it's not what Pastor Bob preaches down the street. It is what Jesus said, and what Jesus meant when he said what he said. If I am zealously pursuing such things, then I can meet with most anybody. I have my views and I am not threatened or offended by the views others hold. (mostly, unless they try to enslave me)

My own view is this. Jesus essentially had no free will. He kept saying, "I come to do the Father's will". He kept saying, "Not my will but the Father's will be done". He kept saying, "It must be fulfilled, Scripture has been written". My sense is that Jesus saw himself caught by the Father's will, expressed in scripture. It was written, so it must be done. Now, Jesus of course had free will, but that was to choose the Father's will. To believe.

"He (Jesus) trusted in God (the Father); let Him (the Father) save Him (the Son) now". Psalm 22:8; Matt 27:43. Jesus chose to trust, to believe, to obey. He saw nothing but the Father. Now how can we see anything but Jesus?

So, he 'chose' to have 'no free will'. Because he believed. That's why (I think) Paul called it the "faith of Christ". It is his faith, now dwelling in us.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by aron

JB thank you for the kind affirmation.

Amen brother,we all know what happened when Adam innocent exercised his free will. And the Last Adam,the Second Man always did His Father's will. Very interesting subject matter.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by JB482

Amen brother,we all know what happened when Adam innocent exercised his free will. And the Last Adam,the Second Man always did His Father's will. Very interesting subject matter.

I should have said when Adam innocent exersised his will independent from God.

[byHismercy]

Aron and Kevin thank you both. You brothers are pursuing the truth in the word and your council is the kind I need. Amen to seeking the Kingdom of God first and it being near, in our hearts and in our mouths, Aron.

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

And I agree, Aron, this discussion is good and important to have, and could be a real testimony of Jesus.

byHismercy

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would encourage you to stay. Focus on the positive -- faith, hope, and love. Remember, there would be no epistles in the N.T. unless the church had "issues." The Lord is faithful to purge each assembly.

Put another way, if you held opinions contrary to the pastor and the elders, but didn't make them a point of contention, would they tolerate you?

I think about the children a lot. Do they want to see the adults arguing about the finer points of doctrine, and dismissing others' abstractions for their own, or do they want to see the adults receiving one another (and them) in love? Humility is not a word, it's a consistent series of actions spurred by an attitude consistently held.

The original "church split" in the 4th century, at the Chalcedon Conference, was over an abstraction, that centered around the Greek word meaning 'nature'. The Oriental Orthodox went one way, the Greek Orthodox went another way. Even today if you ask them what it was all about, they say, "It's complicated." I would rather be simple.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

I don't see easy answers coming to such questions. I think a lot about Jesus and how he saw the Father, especially in the Hebrew Scriptures. And how he saw himself and his role. I felt like the Jews were very constrained by the word (God's command) and Jesus was constrained most of all. And yet all of this was (somehow) 'his' choice. If it were the Father alone, how could there be a reward?

Somehow both points (detervminism v/v free will) seem so opposite, and I can't logically reconcile them, and don't even try. Yet somehow it somehow feels like that's the way it was.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

byHismercy

I have interpreted the foreknowledge and predestination of a loving God to remind me that He gets all the glory. I have nothing to boast in. I Cor 1.31 does not just apply to boasting in ministers (i.e. "I am of Paul"), but also boasting in ourselves. I have heard some dramatic testimonies over the years with the story-teller concluding how they chose the Lord. They received great applause. But predestination informs us, not so much that we did not choose to believe, but that all the glory is His.

This is how I have tried to reconcile this mysterious Biblical enigma. Stretching the understanding further seems to invite trouble.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Aron and Kevin thank you both. You brothers are pursuing the truth in the word and your council is the kind I need. Amen to seeking the Kingdom of God first and it being near, in our hearts and in our mouths, Aron.

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word??

And I agree, Aron, this discussion is good and important to have, and could be a real testimony of Jesus.

byHismercy

One day, while walking through a crowded commercial area downtown, something on the ground caught my attention. Printed in bold letters on this flyer were the words, "free ice cream". Needless to say, I swooped down and picked it right up. It turned out that a nearby frozen yogurt restaurant was having a grand opening and because of the occasion they were giving out free frozen yogurt to their first 100 customers.

Of course having nothing on my mind at this point other then free ice cream, it was only a little later after I indulged in my good fortunes that the Lord used that day to teach me about predestination.

There are many out there led to believe that election is a matter of being predestined before birth at the individual level like Christ was, as in, the Lord saying to himself " ok, so and so will be born on this day and I have already decided that this person specifically will be a Christian when they grow up" sort of thing.

There are some exceptions, but the Lord taught me that predestination in general is a matter of a potential that he's created open-endedly to be filled by whomever makes the individual choice to partake in His free gift of eternal life.

The Lord then affirmed this message to me through scripture with the verse in Romans 11:25 that speaks about Israel being hardened until the number of gentiles be fulfilled. This verse showed me that just as in the first 100 customers getting free ice cream so it is with Heaven and the gentiles. There is a specific number (not specific individuals) that the Lord has set aside to be fulfilled. Yet, he already has a name set aside for those that are chosen.

And also the parable of the Great Banquet in Matthew 22:1-14 when Jesus speaks about sending out invitations to guests for his wedding banquet. Ultimately those invitations were not responded to only to be later extended to all others.

This of course was fulfilled when the Jews rejected the gospel thus bringing it to the Gentiles but I am led to believe this principle is still at work even within the gentile communities.

So you see, the flyer that I picked up from the ground was originally mailed to specific addresses in the area but apparently one of those addressees discarded their flyer and so I was the one that picked it up and redeemed it in their place. I assume many more than 100 flyers where mailed but only 100 were able to be redeemed.

Salvation, in short, is just like this offer for free ice cream. I believe everyone does have the individual opportunity to respond to it but as it turned out many will discard it or walk right past it only to be picking up by someone else and in my case it was only by His mercy that person was me.

And yes absolutely, the Lord died for everyone so that we all will be given the opportunity of receiving his free gift of salvation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The reformed position takes scripture and its' interpretation makes so much sense sometimes. One problem I have with it, though is it doesn't align God with His will for us all. He desires that NONE should perish. But then He somehow changed into a god who chooses some but not the rest....leaving them to perish for eternity? I cannot believe our righteous Lord would create us with the foreknowledge....yes, the intention....of letting most of them suffer hell, forever. To say He alone chooses is to say He doesn't love us all. It is to say that He didn't die for all. Which is verbatim what I was told in the reformed assembly the other day. ``We believe He didn't die for everybody! Only His elect!" This god breaks my heart. And does not seem to match His own word?? byHismercy

This raises a host of great questions.

1. Do you believe that some people created by God will be cast into the Lake of Fire? After all that is what the Bible says.

2. Do you believe that God is omniscient? If so He had to have foreseen this.

3. Do you believe that all things came into being through Him and apart from Him nothing has come into being that exists? If so He created this person knowing the outcome. Even so God can still desire that all men be saved. That very fact suggests how difficult that is and even that it is very likely not going to happen.

4. However, if you believe all the previous Bible verses, then you can also believe that "all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to purpose".

5. Of course the most difficult question is how to reconcile a God in whom is no darkness, for whom it is impossible to lie, how can this God create creatures who are evil, filled with darkness and lie. That question has been deemed unsuitable for this forum, but you can find a very lengthy discussion on it on the "alternative views" under the thread "the problem of evil".

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I don't share these beliefs. For God so loved THE WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 byHismercy

You cannot find a church that is so perfect without a single error. Regarding with John 3:16, this is what I do with such a beloved passage:

My exegesis of the passage:

◼ John 3:16 NASB
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16 — οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν (κόσμον) ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων) εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ’ ἔχῃ ζωὴν

κόσμον (kosmos) ~ world

In John’s context the word kosmos (κόσμον) has the implication of *both* Jew and Gentile...The Jews would have believed that there was a limitation to them only, but John clarifies here that it is not *only* that Jesus died for the believing Jews but also for the believing Gentiles...

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων (pas ho pisteuon) - Whosoever/Whoever Believes

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων denotes particularity in that pas (everyone/whoever) of that particular group who believes will not perish. There is a specificity to faith, there are people who believe and those who do not believe and this is perfectly consistent with God's electing grace and perfectly consistent with the free offer of the Gospel. The verse means “all the ones engaging in the action of substantive adjectival participle believing” will be saved. In English this means “whoever” is definite and specific to believers.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

And one of their positions is holding to the faith that we have no free will in coming to Christ but rather only those elect will come to faith in Him. byHismercy

The Scripture is clear that man is unable to believe in Christ on his own fallen free-will.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44)

And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." (John 6:65)

“Why do you not understand what I am saying? Itis because you cannot hear My word.“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.“But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. (John 8:43-45)

"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. (John 10:26)

But though He had performed so many [signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?” For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.” These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him. (John 12:37-41)

Many have misunderstood that we Reformed folks deny human free-will and its role in redemption. We believe from Scripture that while the human will after the Fall has been “enslaved” to Sin (so much so that the unregenerate heart is absolutely devoid of any salutary disposition), the faculty of the human “will” itself is not altogether extinguished.

The spiritual slavery that is the result of the Fall did not render the human heart “incapable of willing anything absolutely.” Rather, the Fall rendered the human heart “incapable of willing THAT WHICH is right and pleasing in God's eyes” as the Scripture declares (see Romans 8:7-8, cf. Eze. 36:25-27).

So, the fallen man still “freely makes choices” according to the inmost desires of his heart. This is volitional liberty that nobody denies. But we do affirm more. While we acknowledge the fact that we indeed make choices according to the inmost desires of our hearts (volitional liberty), we also affirm that the inmost desires of our hearts are predisposed only to Sin (moral & spiritual slavery) unless the heart is first regenerated by grace. Indeed, we freely chase after that which we love and treasure; but apart from grace our fallen hearts does not and will not love and treasure God above all. We have volitional “liberty” and yet, at the same time, with respect to our moral disposition, are “enslaved” to the Sin that we so love.

Thus, if we are talking about volitional liberty, we heartily affirm “free-will.” But if we are talking about spiritual/moral liberty, the Bible is clear that man had lost this freedom by Sin.


Watch this video from R. C. Srpoul on "Why We Can’t Choose God?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0C8AArEk3E

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

We visited there last weekend and I had really good feelings and I even wonder if this is the Lords' choice for us....but discovered they are reformed which I have questions about. I spoke to the pastors wife and she was open and sweet and let me know they believe that God did not die for everybody, only His elect. And one of their positions is holding to the faith that we have no free will in coming to Christ but rather only those elect will come to faith in Him.

So many sweet things there. A reverence for the Lord, the pastor is awesome and diligent to know the word, they obviously cherish Gods' word, their position on all other points align with the word as much as I can see.

I fear taking my kids into the same ol' same ol' direction where a deviation from scripture leads to wrong believing, wrong thinking, wrong actions. I mean, we all have seen it play out. There is a real and legitimate danger. And I believe when scripture said a little leaven leavens the whole lump He was warning us about leavened doctrine....and maybe other kinds of leaven that I do not see yet.....

Please, brothers and sisters, what is your take? Where is the assembly without error?? I cannot seem to find them....I asked the Lord to choose the assembly, to take me to it. Please what would you do?

byHismercy

byHismercy,

"Reformed" usually refers to the teachings of John Calvin, who tended to be extreme regarding predestination. For modern day churches, it basically provides safe "boundaries" for them to remain in the orthodoxy of the scripture. Whether reformation, restoration, reformed, recovered, catholic, pentecostal, baptist, wesleyan, etc. its almost impossible to find a congregation which does not have some ties to past movements. Each of these also brings certain traditions of worship and practice. But it really comes down to the people and their heart for the Lord. As others have said, no church will be perfect. Regarding free will, do they preach the gospel?

I left the LC, not so much because of "errant" teachings at LSM, as you said "leaven," but because they hurt and abuse people. Then they cover up their unrighteousness by smearing those who resist while trying to protect the saints. It was a downward spiral in the recovery -- bad practices produced bad teachings which produced worse practices and worse teachings. Their road had no guardrails. There were none to provide healthy checks or balance.

I would encourage you to stay. Focus on the positive -- faith, hope, and love. Remember, there would be no epistles in the N.T. unless all the churches had "issues." The Lord is faithful to purge each assembly. The "Son of Man" walks in their midst. The real downfall in the recovery was rejecting the Lord's speaking, replacing it with Lee's. The Lord came to them often, but they shut Him out.

Pray much and seek the Lord. If necessary, ask the elders about "troublesome" teachings. A healthy response will tell you much about them.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Please, brothers and sisters, what is your take? Where is the assembly without error?? I cannot seem to find them....I asked the Lord to choose the assembly, to take me to it. Please what would you do?

byHismercy

My take is this. The Lord said he would be sending us out into the world as sheep amongst wolves.

We're also commanded to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

I don't believe this is just limited to the general populace, I also believe it applies to all groups we are surrounded by and religious congregations we fellowship with. Therefore, we shouldn't look for a certain congregation to be the salt and light for us, rather we as individuals should be the salt and light for the souls in these various church groups.

In other words, it's not what a church can fulfill for us rather it's what we can do for other people attitude we should be approaching with when looking for a group to fellowship with and the rest will fall into place. And of course as many already know here, this is assuming you already know it's the Lord Jesus Christ and his heavenly kingdom you're serving and not another man's fleeting movement on earth.

As I've said before, I do not believe there is a perfect church group out there. It's something the Lord is still working out and will only be fulfilled when he gathers all of his elect together from amongst the various congregations at the last day.

As adults, I do believe we should first be content within our own personal relationship with Christ before fully committing to fellowships so that no matter what happens we'll still have Christ. Sometimes I believe the Lord leads us out into the wilderness to establish just that.

Just think of what kind of Church Life Jesus had on earth. I imagine he often times felt lonely even amongst his disciples in the sense that he didn't have others that were able to fully relate and understand as he did. Yet, he still had his Father and the hope of his brethren one day becoming one with him just as he is one with his Father.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Please, brothers and sisters, what is your take? Where is the assembly without error?? I cannot seem to find them....I asked the Lord to choose the assembly, to take me to it. Please what would you do?

byHismercy,The Church life has been in a state of ruin since the end of the first century A.D. that is why the Apostle John instructed the saints to go back to the beginning. The Lord Jesus has always been faithful to meet the needs of the saints whatever the state of the professing Church has been. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JB482

byHismercy,The Church life has been in a state of ruin since the end of the first century A.D. that is why the Apostle John instructed the saints to go back to the beginning. The Lord Jesus has always been faithful to meet the needs of the saints whatever the state of the professing Church has been...

I don't think "a state of ruin" is too strong. The Church in toto has been in a state of ruin, and this has resulted in various attempts at recovery or reformation or restoration, which merely modify the ruins somewhat, and pronounce themselves satisfied. My analogy is that they camp out in the desert, proclaiming that they're in the Good Land. "Here we are on Mount Zion!" What makes it Zion? Your declaration? What is the basis?

The good news is that once one realizes the state of abject ruin of things, one is free to fellowship with most anyone, without holding them to unrealistic expectations. If they confess Jesus as Lord, then we probably can meet, encourage, pray, testify & exhort, console & encourage, and be mutually edified & built up. I don't expect them to be at "the high peak of Zion" or "the central lane of the divine economy".

And on the other hand, if I receive those who confess the Lord then I have every expectation to be received as well, and that includes what the Lord speaks to me in his word. If I'm willing to listen to those who use Calvin as their muse, or Luther or Darby or Wesley or whomever, then they can hear me as well. Each one has.

[JB482]

Originally Posted by aron

And on the other hand, if I receive those who confess the Lord then I have every expectation to be received as well, and that includes what the Lord speaks to me in his word. If I'm willing to listen to those who use Calvin as their muse, or Luther or Darby or Wesley or whomever, then they can hear me as well. Each one has.

I agree with what you say aron,I really appreciate your insight on the subject.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

And on the other hand, if I receive those who confess the Lord then I have every expectation to be received as well, and that includes what the Lord speaks to me in his word. If I'm willing to listen to those who use Calvin as their muse, or Luther or Darby or Wesley or whomever, then they can hear me as well. Each one has.

Aron, I had a conversation with Evangelical (whatever happened to him?) a while back about discerning between those that confess Jesus as Lord but are not confessing the correct Jesus. Can I ask, how do you personally discern "those that claim they are Jews and are not"? Do you base your discernment on words, works, both or...?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Aron, I had a conversation with Evangelical (whatever happened to him?) a while back about discerning between those that confess Jesus as Lord but are not confessing the correct Jesus. Can I ask, how do you personally discern "those that claim they are Jews and are not"? Do you base your discernment on words, works, both or...?

This is the scary part. There are a few groups that I have been made familiar with who I think are holding forth another jesus, another spirit, another gospel. In some cases it is so obvious. In other cases, it is not so clear. What if I am not sure?

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is the scary part. There are a few groups that I have been made familiar with who I think are holding forth another jesus, another spirit, another gospel. In some cases it is so obvious. In other cases, it is not so clear. What if I am not sure?

If you are not so clear then try to give the benefit of the doubt. God can make things clear. One must always be cautious, and when caring for vulnerable children even moreso. But one must also be cautious to pass hasty judgment. Because we also are being judged. So show mercy! But I get ahead of myself, here...

Originally Posted by Jo S

about discerning between those that confess Jesus as Lord but are not confessing the correct Jesus. Can I ask, how do you personally discern "those that claim they are Jews and are not"? Do you base your discernment on words, works, both or...?

Obvious cases who "claim they are Jews but are not":

~David Koresh and Branch Davidians. Koresh started with the Southern Baptists, then SDA, then took over the Branch Davidians.
~Black Israel. They believe that Jesus was black and they are the true Israelites. They love to remonstrate with others over Hebrew words and keeping the law.
~Mormon Polygamists. All Mormons, for that matter. I don't greet them in the streets, I just move on.
~Moses David Berg and the Children of God/Family. Started as "Teens for Christ" in 1968, believe it or not.
~Rastafarians. They think that Haile Selassie was God incarnate.
~Unification Church. They think that Sun Myung Moon was God incarnate.
~[LC spin-off]Eastern Lightning. They think that God is a Chinese woman who failed her university exams and had a nervous breakdown and identity crisis. Hey! Maybe she's God incarnate! Yeah! That's it! (Nah)
~Jim Jones and Peoples Temple. Jones started as a Methodist, then became a charismatic Pentecostal, then started his own spin-off group in San Francisco.
~Elizabeth Clare Prophet. She grew up with parents in Lutherans' and Catholics' faith traditions, then was exposed to Christian Science, then started her own New Age "Path to Christ-hood" called Summit Lighthouse.
~Heavens Gate cult: Jesus was supposedly coming on the Hale Bopp comet.
~JWs, etc, etc... one must draw the line somewhere.... God eventually makes clear (to me) who to avoid. Otherwise I'd try to give folks the benefit of the doubt, to start anyway. Peter at one point denied Jesus, but Jesus had mercy. So I need to follow Jesus and try to show mercy. If they are trying to acknowledge Christ, try to acknowledge them.

Jude v. 3 says, "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people." But vv. 22,23 say, "And indeed, have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh." In other words, those who show mercy will be shown mercy. ~Matt 5:7 Just like Jesus taught, surprise, surprise...

My current criteria are that there should be words (confess Jesus as Lord) and there should also be works (humility, eagerness to learn, showing love to those who are without). I try to be patient and kind, if possible, but there are some who are best to avoid (see list above). And if caring for young children, even moreso! Keep them safe!

There are some borderline cases like Seventh Day Adventists and Christian Scientists that may be genuinely "Christian" but I don't spend time on them. I don't judge them but I'm not going to spend my time in fruitless argument and/or outreach over abstract formulations. But my point here is that if someone's nominally "Christian" I should try to find common ground, and fellowship, and opportunity mutual experience and expression. This is my job as one who confesses Jesus Christ. But there are clearly lines drawn - who to avoid. Be wise like a serpent, guile-less like a dove. Try to find the good and avoid the egregiously bad.

Back in the first century you just hung out with Peter and John if you wanted to be safe. Or be with those whom John received/approved. Now we don't have that simplicity.

(The above list was a bit tongue-in-cheek, as these groups are not where most wouldn't want to end up. But that's the point - start with obvious cases and move toward 'iffy' ones. And remember that they all either started out Christian or claimed to...)

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Please, brothers and sisters, what is your take? Where is the assembly without error?? I cannot seem to find them....I asked the Lord to choose the assembly, to take me to it. Please what would you do?

byHismercy

Going back to your first post; He did lead you here didn't He?

UntoHim's little forum may not be the perfect assembly with perfected people but it still sounds to me like an answer to prayer, at least for the time being.