What is God's Economy?

[aron]

Paul wanted Timothy to stay in Ephesus so that certain ones don’t teach myths, genealogies and such things as lead to speculations and controversy, rather than God’s economy, which is in faith. Nothing about pray-reading, just that it is in faith. To understand what Paul meant in referencing God’s economy, one must look at the ministry of Jesus, of which Paul was disciple, herald, and apostle. Jesus had taught, “Don’t store up for yourselves on earth, where moth consumes and rust destroys, and where thief breaks through and steals. Rather, give to those who can’t repay you on earth, and your reward will be great in heaven.” Clearly this is an economy based on faith. If you don't believe in a heavenly reward, why would you give, on earth? Remember, there was no 7-11 corner store, no Social Security or Medicaid. If you gave away your stuff, you died.

It is also clear that this economy or dispensational arrangement was at the forefront of the gospel work of the early church. In addition to the selling of all things and leaving the proceeds at the apostles’ feet (Acts 4:32-35), a clear mark of discipleship, and the feeding of the widows (6:1-7), there was the case of the collection in Antioch for the hungry of Jerusalem, sent through Paul and Barnabas (11:29,30), even called in the RecV a dispensing (12:25) “And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, having completed the dispensing; they took along with them John, who was surnamed Mark.”

The dispensing was to give food to the hungry. Again, look at Jesus’ command: “Blessed is the servant whom the Master returns, when he finds him so doing, truly I say that he will set him over his whole house.” Doing what? Pray-reading? No, “…to give them (i. e, dispense or distribute) their food at the proper time" (Matt 24:45). That, according to Jesus, is God’s dispensation. Those who have, should give to those who do not. And it surely requires faith (and love) to do this!

According to Paul’s account in Galatians 2, when the Twelve acknowledged him as apostle to the gentiles as Peter was to the Jews, they only asked one thing – that he remember the poor. Did he cry, “No! That’s not God’s economy!”? No, rather he said that he was eager to do so! Then, when writing the Corinthians, he opens this up. Remember that in 1st Corinthians he was dealing with many critical issues in the church, but in 2 Cor these were now resolved (7:11) and he could really express his heart's full burden to the gentiles, as seen in chaps 8 and 9.

And he concludes with this: “This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!” (9:12-15) The obedience of the gentiles to the gospel of Jesus Christ was their generosity for the Lord’s people in Jerusalem.

To conclude, while the scripture (cf Jer 15:16) does say that God's word is food, and gives life, it never says that this occurs via pray-reading. Instead, Jesus says that his food is in his obedience to the Father's will, expressed in His word (John 4:34). And now, just as he obeyed God’s command (or, word) and lives in the Father's love, so likewise we obey Jesus (15:10). Our obedience to God's will as expressed by Jesus' commands becomes our food, and the basis of our life.

Humankind was made in God’s image but disobeyed, and fell, with the ruinous trail of murder, theft, and lies. Then, just as sin entered through the disobedience of one man, so through the obedience of One, the redemptive path was opened (cf Rom 5). Our singular work is to believe into him, and in his one righteous obedient act, the death on the cross, and then we follow this with our obedience to the gospel, working it out by cooperating in being generous to one another, just as gentile churches were to Jerusalem through Paul.

That is God’s economy as I see it. Nothing here about pray-reading. In order to promote pray-reading and repetitive noisemaking as the “central lane of the divine economy”, WL, BP et al set aside portions of scripture as of no effect, deeming it fallen human concepts, and natural, and only showing what not to do and say! Where did Jesus or Paul ever teach this kind of interpretive approach? No, our concepts should follow "every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God." This is our daily bread.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by aron

That is God’s economy as I see it. Nothing here about pray-reading. In order to promote pray-reading and repetitive noisemaking as the “central lane of the divine economy”, WL, BP et al set aside portions of scripture as of no effect, deeming it fallen human concepts, and natural, and only showing what not to do and say! Where did Jesus or Paul ever teach this kind of interpretive approach? No, our concepts should allow, and follow "every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God."

Lee’s concept of “eating” God’s word always irked me. His use of Jeremiah’s heartfelt declaration to the Lord to justify his concept of “pray-reading” is disheartening, for it leaves out a crucial aspect of this metaphor of “eating,” which is the fact that in order to truly “eat’ God’s word, we must “do” God’s word.

Jeremiah 15:15-17
15 LORD, you understand; remember me and care for me. Avenge me on my persecutors. You are long-suffering—do not take me away; think of how I suffer reproach for your sake. 16 When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty. 17 I never sat in the company of revelers, never made merry with them; I sat alone because your hand was on me and you had filled me with indignation.

Jeremiah speaks of when the word of God came to him. This is exactly what we see in the first chapter of his book. “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:4-5). Jeremiah initially shows apprehension at such a word, but the Lord insists. “‘Alas, Sovereign LORD,’ I said, ‘I do not know how to speak; I am too young.’ But the LORD said to me, ‘Do not say, “I am too young.” You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,’ declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 1:6-8). We can see that Jeremiah immediately proves that he “ate” God’s word by showing that he was keeping God’s word and doing what God asked of him. As our Lord Jesus declared, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.” (John 4:34). In James we also see the importance of keeping God’s word rather than just hearing it: “My dear brothers and sisters, take not of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it — not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it — they will be blessed in what they do.” (James 1:19-25).

The scriptural concept of “eating” can never be divorced from “doing,” yet somehow Lee has conjured up this doctrine of pray-reading which is effectively just a doctrine of verbal phylacteries (Matthew 23:1-12). There is indeed precedent for praying over the scriptures, but Lee’s specific formula for “pray-reading” and for “eating” God’s word is no better than the vain and repetitive actions that Jesus warned against.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACF

Lee’s concept of “eating” God’s word always irked me. His use of Jeremiah’s heartfelt declaration to the Lord to justify his concept of “pray-reading” is disheartening, for it leaves out a crucial aspect of this metaphor of “eating,” which is the fact that in order to truly “eat’ God’s word, we must “do” God’s word.

Yes I think we're in full agreement on this. And yes, we were warned explicitly not to follow the repetitive noisemaking path, yet on it we went most of us anyway... it was so enjoyable! But at the end, no transformation, just frustration. I mean, group chanting was such a head rush. I was 'in spirit, on the ground'!

But really, I was just in a state of heightened suggestibility in which I sat through meeting after meeting, training after training, conference after conference, absorbing all the Lee teachings. At that point, he could have sold us fried eggs, told us it was God's economy, and we would have congratulated ourselves on being so fortunate. It was a golden opportunity, his cheerleaders would say, as we sat raptly, transfixed.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes I think we're in full agreement on this. And yes, we were warned explicitly not to follow the repetitive noisemaking path, yet on it we went most of us anyway... it was so enjoyable! But at the end, no transformation, just frustration. I mean, group chanting was such a head rush. I was 'in spirit, on the ground'!

But really, I was just in a state of heightened suggestibility in which I sat through meeting after meeting, training after training, conference after conference, absorbing all the Lee teachings. At that point, he could have sold us fried eggs, told us it was God's economy, and we would have congratulated ourselves on being so fortunate. It was a golden opportunity, his cheerleaders would say, as we sat raptly, transfixed.

I must admit that for a time I subscribed to this as well. By the end of my tenure, I saw how vain it was when it all came together: their obsession with Lee's ministry, the neglect of scriptural study, the neglect of their members, their history of intimidation and litigation. My trust in The Lord's Recovery died slowly but surely, and all the while painfully.

[Ohio]

As I exhorted thee to wait at Ephesus, when I was going into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge certain men not to teach a differently, neither to give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questionings, rather than *God’s Economy” which is in faith. But the goal of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith

God’s economy, God’s household arrangement, God’s plan, God’s stewardship, etc. has been diversely translated by every translator of the Bible. WL preferred the transliteration of “economy” from the Gk. Oikonomia. That’s fine. Many Greek words just don’t have perfect English words to use and convey the Apostle’s thought.

What really troubled me about WL’s and the Blended’s insistence here was yanking it out of context. We can argue words, but remember the old adage: Text without context is a pretext for a proof text. This saying never was so true as with these verses. How many times (e.g. “a faithful word”, “shepherding words”, etc to start) have I read LSM articles using God’s Economy as a sledgehammer to beat others down? Concerning LSM and DCP how true is another saying: A little knowledge is dangerous.. Never think that LSM is gifted in knowledge from God because they exclusively teach what others do not. Knowledge merely puffs up. But what was Paul saying here? What was on his heart? What was his burden to convey to Timothy?

Paul tells us in plain words: “the goal of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith.” LSM loves to fight for “God’s Economy,” but they completely miss the goal. The miss love out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and unfeigned faith. How many times have I seen them totally miss out on love, and instead minister a spirit of condemnation which damaged many a heart, many consciences, and the faith of many.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

what was Paul saying here? What was on his heart? What was his burden to convey to Timothy?

Paul tells us in plain words: “the goal of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith.” LSM loves to fight for “God’s Economy,” but they completely miss the goal. The miss love out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and unfeigned faith. How many times have I seen them totally miss out on love, and instead minister a spirit of condemnation which damaged many a heart, many consciences, and the faith of many.

A good example of this is the story of Dorcas/Tabitha. She sewed cloaks for the widows. Again, think about what it meant to be a widow back then. No husband, no children, no income, no Social Security and social safety net. No human rights. You didn't exist. It never mentions "God's economy" in the narrative, but the outreach of real help based on real love is palpable.

Or the flip side, with the rich man with Lazarus the beggar. There was no love there... there was enjoyment, but it never reached outside the walls. Jesus says, "When I was hungry, you didn't feed me..." (Matt 25:42) You may tell me, that's not God's economy, but I would reply, if that isn't God's economy, then what is?

[aron]

A question that I'd asked previously, which LSM (to my knowledge) has never answered: If Paul told Timothy to stay behind in Ephesus to make sure that they taught things that resulted in God's economy, how can we say that part of the charge included the teaching of intensification? If there's no evidence that Paul included intensification as part of his oeuvre, why did WL say it was part of the teaching of God's economy? It must have been added in later, by somebody else - namely WL.

Originally Posted by aron

As a recent example of discrepancy, I found myself reconsidering "God's economy" as taught by WL: where does Paul promote intensification? If not, why pretend that Paul was urging Timothy to remain behind in Ephesus and teach it? And if Paul wasn't telling Timothy (or anyone else) to teach it as part of "God's economy", why the presumption that we should? (And, where to broach such questions as a basis for respectful and mutually profitable exploration? Not in the Local Church!)

Perhaps John "saw" or "taught" intensification based on his vision of seven spirits on Patmos, but if we can't see John passing this on to Paul somewhere (and of course Paul was deceased by then), how can we include it in Paul's teaching, or imagine that Paul wanted Timothy to make sure it was taught in Ephesus? Unless we see Paul teaching a sevenfold intensified Holy Spirit, we can't assume that he wanted it taught in Ephesus as part of God's economy. And if Paul didn't, neither can WL or anyone else. It's pure fabrication. The only reason WL got away with this amateur-hour theology is that he preached in an Echo chamber, where all he could hear was "Yes, amen" from the crowd. A critical audience would have called this out.

[gr8ful]

I find this one of the best treatments of the way 1 Tim 1:4 is used by some today.

Originally Posted by Ohio

...
What really troubled me about WL’s and the Blended’s insistence here was yanking it out of context. We can argue words, but remember the old adage: Text without context is a pretext for a proof text. This saying never was so true as with these verses. How many times (e.g. “a faithful word”, “shepherding words”, etc to start) have I read LSM articles using God’s Economy as a sledgehammer to beat others down? Concerning LSM and DCP how true is another saying: A little knowledge is dangerous.. Never think that LSM is gifted in knowledge from God because they exclusively teach what others do not. Knowledge merely puffs up. But what was Paul saying here? What was on his heart? What was his burden to convey to Timothy?

The use of an obscure reading on a single verse to condemn every other teaching other than one's own teaching should be a red flag enough. Grabbing a single word and deciding the entire Bible must be read through the lens of that word as interpreted by a 20th century Bible expositor should be another red flag.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Paul tells us in plain words: “the goal of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith.” LSM loves to fight for “God’s Economy,” but they completely miss the goal. The miss love out of a pure heart, a good conscience, and unfeigned faith. How many times have I seen them totally miss out on love, and instead minister a spirit of condemnation which damaged many a heart, many consciences, and the faith of many.

All the other red flags aside, this here is the only standard by which we need measure the proponents of "God's Economy" as promoted by partisans today: the plain words of the biblical author in context of the touted verse. We need not fear the brow-beating podium thumping partisans demanding fealty to their leadership; we only need to read the "goal of the charge" and discern the real situation with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Lee’s concept of “eating” God’s word always irked me. His use of Jeremiah’s heartfelt declaration to the Lord to justify his concept of “pray-reading” is disheartening, for it leaves out a crucial aspect of this metaphor of “eating,” which is the fact that in order to truly “eat’ God’s word, we must “do” God’s word.

Jeremiah 15:15-17
15 LORD, you understand; remember me and care for me. Avenge me on my persecutors. You are long-suffering—do not take me away; think of how I suffer reproach for your sake. 16 When your words came, I ate them; they were my joy and my heart’s delight, for I bear your name, LORD God Almighty. 17 I never sat in the company of revelers, never made merry with them; I sat alone because your hand was on me and you had filled me with indignation.

Jeremiah speaks of when the word of God came to him. This is exactly what we see in the first chapter of his book. “The word of the LORD came to me, saying, ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:4-5). Jeremiah initially shows apprehension at such a word, but the Lord insists. “‘Alas, Sovereign LORD,’ I said, ‘I do not know how to speak; I am too young.’ But the LORD said to me, ‘Do not say, “I am too young.” You must go to everyone I send you to and say whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you and will rescue you,’ declares the LORD. (Jeremiah 1:6-8). We can see that Jeremiah immediately proves that he “ate” God’s word by showing that he was keeping God’s word and doing what God asked of him. As our Lord Jesus declared, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.” (John 4:34). In James we also see the importance of keeping God’s word rather than just hearing it: “My dear brothers and sisters, take not of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires. Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you. Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it — not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it — they will be blessed in what they do.” (James 1:19-25).

The scriptural concept of “eating” can never be divorced from “doing,” yet somehow Lee has conjured up this doctrine of pray-reading which is effectively just a doctrine of verbal phylacteries (Matthew 23:1-12). There is indeed precedent for praying over the scriptures, but Lee’s specific formula for “pray-reading” and for “eating” God’s word is no better than the vain and repetitive actions that Jesus warned against.

John 6:57 He who eats me, he also shall live because of me
Matthew 4:4 Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out through the mouth of God
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is God breathed
John 4:24 God is spirit, and he who worships him must worship in spirit and truthfulness
John 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God
John 1:14 And the word became flesh and tabernacle among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the father), full of grace and reality
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil


These verses all talk about spiritual eating. The Bible is a spiritual book, God himself is spirit (John 4:24), the Bible is actually God himself (John 1:1). If God is the word, then surely the Bible is good for eating (John 6:57). It's not only biblical to say this, it's literally what God wants from us. He wants to be assimilated into our being so that we express him. Otherwise what are we saved for? Simply for our own ticket to heaven? That's not the scope of what the Bible says. From Genesis chapter 2, directly after creating man he put man in the garden in front of the two trees with the idea that man would eat him. This is the major running theme throughout the entire Bible, and it's how God accomplishes his goal. The Bible is one big book of eating, from the beginning to the end. If you don't think so I'd encourage you to read your Bible more often

Modern Christianity loves to say God's goal is to do things, and to accomplish works. This is a common trope in mainstream Christianity. But actually God didn't tell Adam and Eve to do much. They only had to upkeep the garden. But his central goal for them was focused around their eating. "God cares more for what we are than what we do." -Watchman Nee. God cares for the quality of his craftsmanship. What better material to build with than with himself

But with that said, yes there's more to the Christian life than eating. And works are something that is talked about a lot in the Bible. I went into detail about this on another thread regarding the oneness of the body. Someone said that he experienced oneness in the works. I contend that without the spirit the works are something of the soul. Whether it's the soul or the spirit matters (Hebrews 4:12)

Lee says in the footnotes for Hebrews 4:12-

According to the Bible, man is a tripartite being — spirit, soul, and body (1 Thes. 5:23). Here, in this verse, are the joints and marrow — which are parts of the body — and the soul and spirit.

The foregoing verses describe the children of Israel as falling away from entering into the rest of the good land. With them there were three places:
1) Egypt, from which they were delivered;
2) the wilderness, in which they wandered;
3) Canaan, into which they entered. Their history in these three places signifies the three stages of their participation in God's full salvation.
This is a type of us, the New Testament believers, in our participation in the full salvation of God. In the first stage we receive Christ and are redeemed and delivered from the world. In the second stage we become wanderers in following the Lord; our wandering always takes place in our soul. In the third stage we partake of and enjoy Christ in a full way; this is experienced in our spirit. When we pursue the pleasures of material and sinful things, we are in the world, typified by Egypt. When we wander in our soul, we are in the wilderness. When we enjoy Christ in our spirit, we are in Canaan. When the Israelites were wandering in the wilderness, they were always murmuring, reasoning, and chiding. This surely took place in their soul, not in their spirit. But Caleb and Joshua believed in the word of God, obeyed the Lord, and pressed toward the goal. This surely took place not in their soul but in their spirit. At that time the receivers of this book, the Hebrew believers, were wondering what they should do with their old Hebrew religion. This wondering in their mind was a wandering in their soul, not an experience of Christ in their spirit. So the writer of this book said that the word of God, i.e., what was quoted from the Old Testament, could pierce into their wondering like a sharp two-edged sword and divide their soul from their spirit. As the marrow is concealed deep in the joints, so the spirit is deep in the soul. The dividing of the marrow from the joints requires mainly the breaking of the joints. In the same principle, the dividing of the spirit from the soul requires the breaking of the soul. The Hebrew believers' soul, with its wondering mind, its doubting concerning God's way of salvation, and its considering of its own interests, had to be broken by the living, operative, and piercing word of God that their spirit might be divided from their soul.

Our soul is our very self (Matt. 16:25; cf. Luke 9:25). In following the Lord we must deny our soul, our very self (Matt. 16:24; Luke 9:23). Our spirit is the deepest part of our being, a spiritual organ with which we contact God (John 4:24; Rom. 1:9). It is in our spirit that we are regenerated (John 3:6). It is in our spirit that the Holy Spirit dwells and works (Rom. 8:16). It is in our spirit that we enjoy Christ and His grace (2 Tim. 4:22; Gal. 6:18). Hence, the writer of this book advised the Hebrew believers not to stagger in the wandering of their soul, which soul they had to deny, but to press on into their spirit to partake of and enjoy the heavenly Christ that they might participate in the kingdom rest of His reign in the millennium. If they staggered in the wandering of their soul, they would miss God's goal and suffer the loss of the full enjoyment of Christ and the kingdom rest.

In this complex footnote we see how intricate our being is, and how closely related to God's plan the faculties of our being is. We see that the soul life is asked of us to deny (Matthew 16:24) and we see the spirit is the focal point of the Christian life (Romans chapter 8). All of these clues are indicators of what God wants- EATING. God wants us to eat of him as the spirit and to exercise our spirit. The works come out of this practice

Now, as I said on the other thread I believe that the local churches are short in the works department. I believe this is a shortage or a lack that they have for whatever reason. But we can't contend with their theology on eating of Christ as the spirit. To do so would be to contend with the Bible itself. It may be that in fact they themselves are short on eating and enjoying the Lord and this is why they lack in works. But the error of modern Christianity is to focus only on works and totally ignore eating Christ as the spirit. This is a defunct situation. Dead works like Thyatira. However many in the local churches exhibit the condition of Laodicea. They have the knowledge but they've lost the first love. They are in a stagnant condition with no works. Both scenarios are wrong. Christ was balanced in both life and his humanity that exhibited love and care for people through his works of healing, helping, loving, etc. This is short in the local churches from my experience. But we can't say that the Bible is not a book of eating, and we can't say that eating isn't the central theme of God's plan

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by aron

That is God’s economy as I see it. Nothing here about pray-reading. In order to promote pray-reading and repetitive noisemaking as the “central lane of the divine economy”, WL, BP et al set aside portions of scripture as of no effect, deeming it fallen human concepts, and natural, and only showing what not to do and say! Where did Jesus or Paul ever teach this kind of interpretive approach? No, our concepts should follow "every word that proceeds out from the mouth of God." This is our daily bread.

I believe that Witness Lee employed terms like "God's Economy" as a means to draw and then separate individuals from the broader Body of Christ. Additionally, concepts such as the teaching of the local ground of the church and practices like pray-reading and calling on the name of the Lord were similarly utilized to create a sense of exclusivity and control. Much like Jehovah Witnesses emphasize the name "Jehovah" and Seventh Day Adventists prioritize observing the Sabbath, Witness Lee emphasized buzzwords such as "God's Economy" and "Lord's Recovery," as well as phrases like "exercise your Spirit”, “sense of life” to isolate and bind believers.

The term "economy" appears only a handful of times in the writings of Paul, indicating that it is not of central importance compared to themes like Christ, the cross, repentance, holiness, and salvation, which are extensively emphasized throughout the Bible. Furthermore, the interpretation of "God's Economy" given by Witness Lee as the mingling and dispensing of the Triune God with tripartite man lacks biblical support and is an erroneous teaching. This perceived exclusivity around the concept of "economy" within the Lord's Recovery hinders genuine fellowship with other Christians outside the movement, creating unnecessary division.

In my perspective, God's Economy encompasses His grand plan of salvation in Christ and His divine will to establish His kingdom among us. This includes the fundamental teachings of Jesus and the apostles, such as believing in Christ, repenting of sins, living a righteous life, spreading the gospel, practicing compassion and generosity, honoring marriage, and more—all of which contribute to the realization of God's economy. However, within the Lord's Recovery movement, there appears to be a downplaying of these essential aspects, while abstract and mystical concepts like mingling and dispensing are elevated to a central focus. This shift can obscure the simplicity and power of the gospel message and detract from the core teachings of Scripture. It's crucial for believers to discern and recognize the subtle tactics of the enemy to distort foundational truths and sow division among God's people.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I believe that Witness Lee employed terms like "God's Economy" as a means to draw and then separate individuals from the broader Body of Christ. Additionally, concepts such as the teaching of the local ground of the church and practices like pray-reading and calling on the name of the Lord were similarly utilized to create a sense of exclusivity and control. Much like Jehovah Witnesses emphasize the name "Jehovah" and Seventh Day Adventists prioritize observing the Sabbath, Witness Lee emphasized buzzwords such as "God's Economy" and "Lord's Recovery," as well as phrases like "exercise your Spirit”, “sense of life” to isolate and bind believers.

Yes, the drive for a group to adopt "special practices" seems to have several unholy goals such as to maintain group loyalty through establishing unique terminology & language, to make the Guru feel like he or she has a special connection with God, and to make followers think the same of the leader.

One publication that has helped me to understand this odd drive for "special-ness" within the Recovery was F.B. Hole's Modern Mystical Teachings and the Word of God.

Link: https://blendedbody.com/4LCD/ModernM...eWordofGod.pdf

P.S.

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

In my perspective, God's Economy encompasses His grand plan of salvation in Christ and His divine will to establish His kingdom among us. This includes the fundamental teachings of Jesus and the apostles, such as believing in Christ, repenting of sins, living a righteous life, spreading the gospel, practicing compassion and generosity, honoring marriage, and more—all of which contribute to the realization of God's economy. However, within the Lord's Recovery movement, there appears to be a downplaying of these essential aspects, while abstract and mystical concepts like mingling and dispensing are elevated to a central focus. This shift can obscure the simplicity and power of the gospel message and detract from the core teachings of Scripture. It's crucial for believers to discern and recognize the subtle tactics of the enemy to distort foundational truths and sow division among God's people.

If the term God's economy is as Lee defined it- 'Oikonomos' in the Greek, which means household manager, or household arrangement, then it would seem that BOTH Lee's interpretation and your definition here are correct. However you also bring up a solid point in that Lee mostly only focuses on the dispensing of the spirit as opposed to the other aspects of a household arrangement, or household management. I think this is a great point you're making in that Lee for the most part downplays important aspects of the Bible that aren't directly linked to large terms that he constantly hits on such as 'the triune God' 'the mingled spirit, 'exercising the spirit,' etc. And because of the extreme adoration the LC has for Lee they follow this absolutely. To the point where very large matters such as marriage, sin, works of practical care, kindness, love, fellowship, compassion (things you mentioned), all take a very distant second to the core things Lee always hit on. It's not that Lee never touched on these other things, he absolutely does and did, but it's always within the scope of his major points of the spirit and mingling. I guess in a sense that's kinda ok and good in a way, because I think if Jesus is the spirit then we should run everything by the spirit first and foremost, which i think is his point by that. But also when you spend lots of time with the LC you start to realize that they put almost NO emphasis on other things. It's just solely the same major points about dispending and the spirit OVER AND OVER AND OVER, just repackaged, recooked, reheated, rehashed, etc. in different ways according to their supposed revelation. Essentially all they're doing is talking about the same points over and over again but just changing their words around each time. Which does not seem balanced

Again if you meet with the LC you realize that this is all they talk about. They rarely talk about practical points from the Bible like you said. So while although I can't say Lee and the LC are objectively wrong to talk about the mingling, the spirit, calling on the Lord, morning revival, contacting God etc. I can that they are not balanced in their focus and teachings. On the other hand I would say that the denominations aren't balanced either, but in the opposite direction. The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, and the triune God, etc.

So we have an imbalance of both camps, which I'm seeing is a running theme here with regards to the talks about the different practices between the LC and the denominations

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

In my perspective, God's Economy encompasses His grand plan of salvation in Christ and His divine will to establish His kingdom among us. This includes the fundamental teachings of Jesus and the apostles, such as believing in Christ, repenting of sins, living a righteous life, spreading the gospel, practicing compassion and generosity, honoring marriage, and more—all of which contribute to the realization of God's economy. However, within the Lord's Recovery movement, there appears to be a downplaying of these essential aspects, while abstract and mystical concepts like mingling and dispensing are elevated to a central focus. This shift can obscure the simplicity and power of the gospel message and detract from the core teachings of Scripture. It's crucial for believers to discern and recognize the subtle tactics of the enemy to distort foundational truths and sow division among God's people.

If the term God's economy is as Lee defined it- 'Oikonomos' in the Greek, which means household manager, or household arrangement, then it would seem that BOTH Lee's interpretation and your definition here are correct. However you also bring up a solid point in that Lee mostly only focuses on the dispensing of the spirit as opposed to the other aspects of a household arrangement, or household management. I think this is a great point you're making in that Lee for the most part downplays important aspects of the Bible that aren't directly linked to large terms that he constantly hits on such as 'the triune God' 'the mingled spirit, 'exercising the spirit,' etc. And because of the extreme adoration the LC has for Lee they follow this absolutely. To the point where very large matters such as marriage, sin, works of practical care, kindness, love, fellowship, compassion (things you mentioned), all take a very distant second to the core things Lee always hit on. It's not that Lee never touched on these other things, he absolutely does and did, but it's always within the scope of his major points of the spirit and mingling. I guess in a sense that's kinda ok and good in a way, because I think if Jesus is the spirit then we should run everything by the spirit first and foremost, which i think is his point by that. But also when you spend lots of time with the LC you start to realize that they put almost NO emphasis on other things. It's just solely the same major points about dispending and the spirit OVER AND OVER AND OVER, just repackaged, recooked, reheated, rehashed, etc. in different ways according to their supposed ongoing revelation, which really is just the speaking brothers rearranging things Lee has said. Essentially all they're doing is talking about the same points over and over again but just changing their words around each time. Which does not seem balanced

Again if you meet with the LC you realize that this is all they talk about. They rarely talk about practical points from the Bible like you said. So while although I can't say Lee and the LC are objectively wrong to talk about the mingling, the spirit, calling on the Lord, morning revival, contacting God etc. I can surmise that they are not very balanced in their teachings. I think this leads to a lot of neglect and problems that stem from neglect of other things in the Christian walk. I think this is why so often people get ignored, their problems get swept under the rug, and it gives the elders and leaders plausible deniability to be somewhat lazy in helping the congregation. It's easy to just push off someone's problems by saying something like "Oh you just need to exercise your spirit more," or "just turn the Lord brother, everything will be ok." Which is an easy out for not helping people in a real, lasting, and practical way. I've seen this happen a lot actually in my time with the LC. People's problems get ignored or just shucked off in lieu of some broad sweeping generality that they package into a maxim

On the other hand I would say that the denominations aren't at all balanced either, but in the opposite direction. The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, transformation, and the triune God, etc.

So we have an imbalance of both camps, which I'm seeing is a running theme here with regards to the talks about the different practices between the LC and the denominations. It seems that the answer to both the problems of each camp is somewhere in the middle. The LC tends to be very much too extreme in many ways, and the denominations tend to be too basic. Of course I am not at all endorsing the denominations as I believe that Nee and Lee are objectively correct about them according to the Bible

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

……The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, and the triune God, etc.

NEVER? How do you know this? Have you visited every church congregation in America?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

NEVER? How do you know this? Have you visited every church congregation in America?

Yes I have

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Jay

On the other hand I would say that the denominations aren't at all balanced either, but in the opposite direction. The denominations NEVER talk about the spirit, mingling, dispensing, exercising the spirit, contacting God, prophesying that builds up the church, transformation, and the triune God, etc.

Jay, just take the loss rather than countering with childish sarcasm. You know this statement is not true. I know it's not true. Many denominations speak on the spirit of man, which is what gives us the ability of higher thought and the ability to commune with the Holy Spirit. I've been to Baptist, Pentecostal, and nondenominational churches, and they all touch on the spirit of man and our relation to the Holy Spirit. I was aware of this even while within the other denominations.

As for "mingling," most churches don't believe we "become God" like Lee taught. There's a reason the word "mingling" fell out of use for centuries. Most of the churches I've been to teach on us becoming closer and closer to God, being conformed to his image more and more as we grow in our Christian life and subsequently becoming more and more like God through the way we live and interact with one another and the world. I could see this even while within the other denominations.

On the matter of "dispensing," most churches know that we receive the dispensing of the Holy Spirit and that we receive this dispensing in many ways. It may appear through gifts or healing or wisdom or the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galatians. Lee wanted to sound special by turning the spirit into some yummy snack we can munch on every day, but this is not different than what Christians have already known for centuries: we seek the Lord, we receive the Holy Spirit, and we grow as we become one with the spirit. We seek continuously in order to grow continuously. I knew of this even while within the other denominations.

On the matter of "exercising the spirit," Lee erroneously established a false dichotomy between the spirit and the soul. Look at the function of the spirit of man throughout the bible. Even without the dispensing of the Holy Spirit, man's spirit is what gives him the ability to reason and to think and to feel. Man's spirit is capable of thought and emotion and will. There's a reason the soul an spirit of man are likened to bone and marrow. You cannot reasonably separate one from the other. Lee's concept of "exercising the spirit" is just another way of using new vocabulary to try and sound like he discovered something grand and mysterious, but in reality any man who uses a reasonable mind to know God and seek him and pray to him and follow him is already "exercising the spirit" because he is seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I feel like making a point on "contacting God" would be redundant. Anyone who seeks the Lord is contacting him. Anyone who sets their hearts on God is contacting him. This is nothing new.

Prophesying: most churches I've been in give opportunity to their members to speak the word of God through the use of smaller bible studies and gatherings. That many of them get together for a bigger sermon does not negate this. Jesus and the apostles also made use of larger meetings and sermons to teach. Those in the Lord's Recovery have a very similar format whether they admit it or not. They have several days-long trainings and conferences and meetings where there is one main speaker giving an extended message for hours and then they have the prophesying meetings where everyone can have a chance to speak (though often times the only thing that was accepted was Lee's doctrines). The point is that many members of many churches "prophesy" when they get together to study the word of God and build each other up. Iron sharpens iron. Building the body of Christ. This is not something Lee came up with. It is foolish to think that such things do not exist outside of The Lord's Recovery.

Transformation: are we really having to tell you about this, Jay? The transforming power of the spirit? Really? You're really going to tell me that not a single assembly you've been to outside of The Lord's Recovery has ever in their history spoken on this? Where in the world are you where you can so boldly and foolishly make such a claim? What backwater spiritual desert have you been killing yourself in to feel that no other denomination besides the Lord's Recovery speaks on these things? Your locality must be woefully pathetic if this is the conclusion that the assemblies in your area have led you to. Either that, or you're once again just buying into Recovery dogma and reflexively making unfounded statements like "no one else does this!"

That's literally the whole point that Thankful made. Lee just took some very common biblical ideas, used a set of vocabulary words that no one else uses, and used some good ol' fashioned eisegesis to twist things here and there to seem like he came up with so many grand ideas that you can't ever find anywhere else. The fact that you so confidently use your all-caps NEVER and respond with petty sarcasm shows that the dogma of Lee is strongly embedded in you. You need to take a few steps back and consider the grand task of getting over yourself before taking such a huge dump on all of the other denominations. Think for a moment, Jay.

And as for the Triune God: I'm not even going to grace this one with a rebuttal.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Jay, just take the loss rather than countering with childish sarcasm. You know this statement is not true. I know it's not true. Many denominations speak on the spirit of man, which is what gives us the ability of higher thought and the ability to commune with the Holy Spirit. I've been to Baptist, Pentecostal, and nondenominational churches, and they all touch on the spirit of man and our relation to the Holy Spirit. I was aware of this even while within the other denominations.

So you've been to denominations that know what the spirit is and practice exercising their spirit? They call on the Lord, pray read, and are in tune with how their spirit functions and they know how to live in their spirit, which is connected to God's spirit?

I doubt it sir

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

As for "mingling," most churches don't believe we "become God" like Lee taught. There's a reason the word "mingling" fell out of use for centuries. Most of the churches I've been to teach on us becoming closer and closer to God, being conformed to his image more and more as we grow in our Christian life and subsequently becoming more and more like God through the way we live and interact with one another and the world. I could see this even while within the other denominations.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit
Philippians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ
John 15:4 Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing
6:15a Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?

All these verses (there's plenty more than just these few) prove that we are not only organically connected to God when we turn to our spirit, but that we can and should live by his life in our spirit. This is very different from merely being "like" God

The denominations are famous for imitating Christ....."what would Jesus do," type of concepts held there. But that is far far short of what the Bible actually says. Unfortunately this is why so many Christians are actually following a type of law that is outside of Christ and what God wants. Very sad

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I feel like making a point on "contacting God" would be redundant. Anyone who seeks the Lord is contacting him. Anyone who sets their hearts on God is contacting him. This is nothing new.

Not really. Romans 8:6 says 'For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace'

What that verse DOESN'T say is 'He who seeks the Lord and sets his heart on the Lord will be in their spirit and have life and peace.' It says that the person who uses his mind to set himself on the spirit will have life and peace as a result. The important words in that verse are mind and spirit. This implies an exercise and a definite directional practice. We all seek God in a general way, but there's a difference between seeking God and contacting God. The difference there is crucial. One can certainly seek out the knowledge of a car engine, learn about its parts and how they function, but until one turns the key the engine will not start. How can we get into our spirit if we are not exercising our spirit? At best it would be some kind of mystical intermittent experience that may or may not happen if the stars align and everything is going right. Like lighting strikes or something. OR......you could just figure out how to "turn the engine on" and then you can contact God any time you like

Do the denominations teach this? I don't think so

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Prophesying: most churches I've been in give opportunity to their members to speak the word of God through the use of smaller bible studies and gatherings. That many of them get together for a bigger sermon does not negate this. Jesus and the apostles also made use of larger meetings and sermons to teach. Those in the Lord's Recovery have a very similar format whether they admit it or not. They have several days-long trainings and conferences and meetings where there is one main speaker giving an extended message for hours and then they have the prophesying meetings where everyone can have a chance to speak (though often times the only thing that was accepted was Lee's doctrines). The point is that many members of many churches "prophesy" when they get together to study the word of God and build each other up. Iron sharpens iron. Building the body of Christ. This is not something Lee came up with. It is foolish to think that such things do not exist outside of The Lord's Recovery.

Yeah naw, the pastoral system amongst the denominations is obvious and blatant clergy-laity. This goes against 1 Corinthians 14:26-31


14:26 What then, brothers? Whenever you come together, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up.
14:27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two, or at the most three, and in turn, and one should interpret;
14:28 But if there is no interpreter, he should be silent in the church, and speak to himself and to God.
14:29 And as to prophets, two or three should speak, and the others discern.
14:30 But if something is revealed to another sitting by, the first should be silent.
14:31 For you can all prophesy one by one that all may learn and all may be encouraged

What does verse 26 say? It says 'WHEVENEVER you come together.' It doesn't say 'only at certain set times can the members function to build up the church. It says that ALL can prophesy, not just the clergy, aka the paid pastor who gives sermons for his salary. That's a degradation and is one of the largest tactics satan used historically to damage the church. It's also complete heresy. You will not find that concept in the Bible of only one man speaking while the congregation passively sits by and listens for two hours

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Transformation: are we really having to tell you about this, Jay? The transforming power of the spirit? Really? You're really going to tell me that not a single assembly you've been to outside of The Lord's Recovery has ever in their history spoken on this? Where in the world are you where you can so boldly and foolishly make such a claim? What backwater spiritual desert have you been killing yourself in to feel that no other denomination besides the Lord's Recovery speaks on these things? Your locality must be woefully pathetic if this is the conclusion that the assemblies in your area have led you to. Either that, or you're once again just buying into Recovery dogma and reflexively making unfounded statements like "no one else does this!"

How can one be transformed by the spirit if one doesn't actually exercise their spirit?

Also where's Neil at? The other day I got reprimanded for being half as condescending as you are being now. Or is it only the people who totally bash the LC and Lee are able to get away with blatant mocking like this?

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by Jay

How can one be transformed by the spirit if one doesn't actually exercise their spirit?

Also where's Neil at? The other day I got reprimanded for being half as condescending as you are being now. Or is it only the people who totally bash the LC and Lee are able to get away with blatant mocking like this?

Hi Jay,

I think I can understand to some degree how strongly you feel about this.
I am have to admit exercising my spirit as taught by Witness Lee was new to me and I find it strange but still attempted it for the sake to learning something new. Just in case I was too narrow or bias.

After many years of it, I concluded its function and the way it was practice and encourage in the meetings was limited and its effect on me was very short lived. Though others kept doing it, I just let them be.

It did not transform me. At best it prevent me from loosing my temper, from sighing, it saves me from fear and anxieties, more of a stress reliever, a form of self restriction, a boost of strength and motivation to get through a situation I don't like. But it did NOT transform me to be like Christ in His attributes. Its more of a behaviour modification tool to me.

I cannot see anywhere in the bible that the transforming power of God comes from the exercise of our human spirit. Some may be drawn tp some interpretation and conclude in it, but I don't see it.

Paul taught in Romans that the mind set on the spirit leads to life.

The Bible teaches us that God desires our heart to be turned back to Him. This is consistent throughout the whole bible.

Though I do know that the exercise of the human spirit whether a person believes in the Lord or not is a very powerful and effective tool in that it helps people overcome their fear and anxieties from the negative thoughts that are in their minds. It is used in competitive sports, in pre-battle cries, multi-level marketing, etc. It makes us feel strong and motivated to face certain challenges.

But note that this tool is only a coping method and not a transforming work of the Holy Spirit. to me it is still a form of "natural" strength.

The transforming work of the Holy spirit come from our willingness to reflect and respond to the Word of God, and being able to verbalize our offences to Him (a confession). It is what genuine repentance looks like and is a big part our transformation.

I hope this is of some help to you.

I pray that you can find real rest and be able to discern and trust in the Word of the Lord!

-Sunshine.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Sunshine

I think I can understand to some degree how strongly you feel about this....

Thank you for your kind words

Much of my learning about transformation (most of which has been from Nee and Lee and their expoundings on the Bible and the footnotes), I've learned it is multifaceted. Our environment transforms us, our sufferings in particular, but also how much we turn to him, both in our heart and in our spirit. All of it makes sense to me. If we turn to our spirit then we are connected and God's life can flow into us and transform us. Much like how a bottle is filled with a substance and then becomes the carrier/container of that substance. Then Lee would go on to talk about the mingling which a good example is tea and his anaology of "tea-ification." Which I always felt was solid and I understood the point. Which is also biblical (2 Corinthians 3:18, John 6:57)

So idk maybe more semantics here. I believe from the Bible that God wants to live in us and transform us into his image and I see a biblical precedent to do this through his dispensing of the spirit. But that's not the only way either. Like I said, environment, sufferings, traumas, etc. God works and works to get into us and transform us

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Jay

How can one be transformed by the spirit if one doesn't actually exercise their spirit?

I'm curious about where the Bible tells us "to exercise our spirits" that involves psychic, yelling, repetitive, and mindless mantras like those practiced in the LC?

I believe W. Lee often mentioned 1 Timothy 4:7, where Paul tells Timothy to "train yourself to be godly" (NIV). I think he meant to focus on prayer, reading the Holy Scriptures, avoiding wrongdoing, living righteously and in obedience to God, practicing charity, being filled with the Holy Spirit, etc.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I'm curious about where the Bible tells us "to exercise our spirits" that involves psychic, yelling, repetitive, and mindless mantras like those practiced in the LC?
I believe W. Lee often mentioned 1 Timothy 4:7, where Paul tells Timothy to "train yourself to be godly" (NIV). I think he meant to focus on prayer, reading the Holy Scriptures, avoiding wrongdoing, living righteously and in obedience to God, practicing charity, being filled with the Holy Spirit, etc.

I think you're taking something, distorting it, and then running with the distortion you've created. If you actually attend LC meetings they don't just chant mindlessly over and over. Certainly they call on the Lord, but it's not ALL they do and it's not mindlessly repetitive like you're painting it as. No, it's to exercise the spirit

The Bible constantly mentions the practice of calling on the Lord- https://www.ministrysamples.org/exce...-THE-LORD.HTML

Does it say that they chanted over and over repetitively for hours on end? No, but the LC doesn't do that either. They call, they praise, they sing, they prophesy, they fellowship. Again calling on the name of the Lord is exemplified many times over in the Bible and yes it's audible and yes those who did it said the name of the Lord in a spirit touching way

Maybe there are some examples of people in the LC who do do it mindlessly and repetitively idk. But I've been around the LC for many years in my life and I never got the impression is was a weird repetitive chant that was lifeless and meaningless, like a cult practice or something. It's a definite thing with a real meaning. When you call on the Lord you are touching your spirit Otherwise what would be the point of it?

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

On the matter of "exercising the spirit," Lee erroneously established a false dichotomy between the spirit and the soul. Look at the function of the spirit of man throughout the bible. Even without the dispensing of the Holy Spirit, man's spirit is what gives him the ability to reason and to think and to feel. Man's spirit is capable of thought and emotion and will. There's a reason the soul an spirit of man are likened to bone and marrow. You cannot reasonably separate one from the other. Lee's concept of "exercising the spirit" is just another way of using new vocabulary to try and sound like he discovered something grand and mysterious, but in reality any man who uses a reasonable mind to know God and seek him and pray to him and follow him is already "exercising the spirit" because he is seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged word, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ


These verses prove there is a definite difference between man's spirit and man's soul

Genesis 2:7 Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul


This verse proves that God made man a living soul, NOT a living spirit. Man is a soul, not a spirit. But man has a spirit within him (Job 32:8)

So it's not Nee or Lee who is separating the spirit from the soul, it's literally the Bible


Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 tell us that to contact our spirit we need to exercise it by calling on the name of the Lord

You are doing a very poor job of attacking Lee here sir. I think you need to read the Bible more often and get your points sorted out. But probably if you did that you would lose your basis for attack in the first place, so I guess nevermind

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

On the matter of "dispensing," most churches know that we receive the dispensing of the Holy Spirit and that we receive this dispensing in many ways. It may appear through gifts or healing or wisdom or the fruit of the spirit mentioned in Galatians. Lee wanted to sound special by turning the spirit into some yummy snack we can munch on every day, but this is not different than what Christians have already known for centuries: we seek the Lord, we receive the Holy Spirit, and we grow as we become one with the spirit. We seek continuously in order to grow continuously. I knew of this even while within the other denominations.

John 4:24 He who worships must worship in spirit and truthfulness

John 6:57 He who eats me he also shall live because of me

Zechariah 4:6 And he answered and spoke to me, saying, This is the word of Jehovah to Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says Jehovah of hosts

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death

Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.

Romans 8:6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace


How can we receive the dispensing of God if we are not exercising our spirit sir? How can we be one with God if we are not exercising the right organ to contact him?

[ACuriousFellow]

Ah… once again discerning the scriptures and judging other groups through the lens of Lee. Of course you’re going to think they aren’t doing such scriptural things because they don’t do it the way Lee prescribed. I’m honestly shocked at how those in The Lord’s Recovery do not realize they are in yet another denomination.

Well, that’s enough pathos for now. It’s time to return to logos, and it’s time to return to the Logos.

As I challenged you with the naming of assemblies, I will challenge you with Lee’s various and unfortunate instances of eisegesis which have led to more unnecessary practices which give the saints in The Lord’s Recovery their distasteful sense of spiritual superiority.

Let’s begin with calling. You say the none of the other denominations apart from The Lord’s Recovery do not do this, and I say many of them do. I am almost certain this disagreement exists because the denominations rarely do it the way that Witness Lee prescribed. Just as well, I’m almost certain your reflexive thought and likely response will be “it’s how the bible prescribed.” If that is so, let’s take a look at the scriptures and continue our duel, shall we?

Here is my challenge to you if you’ll take it:

Show me in the scriptures where “calling on the Lord” is either explicitly or implicitly shown to be a practice of repeatedly chanting “Oh Lord Jesus” or some variation of the like as Lee explicitly taught.

For my part, I will endeavor to show you either/both implicit and explicit scriptures to the contrary.

Whether you answer my challenge or not, I will prepare and publish a response to Lee's doctrinal folly.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Ah… once again discerning the scriptures and judging other groups through the lens of Lee. Of course you’re going to think they aren’t doing such scriptural things because they don’t do it the way Lee prescribed. I’m honestly shocked at how those in The Lord’s Recovery do not realize they are in yet another denomination.

Well, that’s enough pathos for now. It’s time to return to logos, and it’s time to return to the Logos.

As I challenged you with the naming of assemblies, I will challenge you with Lee’s various and unfortunate instances of eisegesis which have led to more unnecessary practices which give the saints in The Lord’s Recovery their distasteful sense of spiritual superiority.

Let’s begin with calling. You say the none of the other denominations apart from The Lord’s Recovery do not do this, and I say many of them do. I am almost certain this disagreement exists because the denominations rarely do it the way that Witness Lee prescribed. Just as well, I’m almost certain your reflexive thought and likely response will be “it’s how the bible prescribed.” If that is so, let’s take a look at the scriptures and continue our duel, shall we?

Here is my challenge to you if you’ll take it:

Show me in the scriptures where “calling on the Lord” is either explicitly or implicitly shown to be a practice of repeatedly chanting “Oh Lord Jesus” or some variation of the like as Lee explicitly taught.

For my part, I will endeavor to show you either/both implicit and explicit scriptures to the contrary.

Whether you answer my challenge or not, I will prepare and publish a response to Lee's doctrinal folly.

I already did show you. Romans 10:13

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Ah… once again discerning the scriptures and judging other groups through the lens of Lee. Of course you’re going to think they aren’t doing such scriptural things because they don’t do it the way Lee prescribed. I’m honestly shocked at how those in The Lord’s Recovery do not realize they are in yet another denomination.

Well, that’s enough pathos for now. It’s time to return to logos, and it’s time to return to the Logos.

As I challenged you with the naming of assemblies, I will challenge you with Lee’s various and unfortunate instances of eisegesis which have led to more unnecessary practices which give the saints in The Lord’s Recovery their distasteful sense of spiritual superiority.

Let’s begin with calling. You say the none of the other denominations apart from The Lord’s Recovery do not do this, and I say many of them do. I am almost certain this disagreement exists because the denominations rarely do it the way that Witness Lee prescribed. Just as well, I’m almost certain your reflexive thought and likely response will be “it’s how the bible prescribed.” If that is so, let’s take a look at the scriptures and continue our duel, shall we?

Here is my challenge to you if you’ll take it:

Show me in the scriptures where “calling on the Lord” is either explicitly or implicitly shown to be a practice of repeatedly chanting “Oh Lord Jesus” or some variation of the like as Lee explicitly taught.

For my part, I will endeavor to show you either/both implicit and explicit scriptures to the contrary.

Whether you answer my challenge or not, I will prepare and publish a response to Lee's doctrinal folly.

Here's a bevy of verses that touch on calling on the name of the Lord

Acts 7:59; 9:14; 22:16; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Tim. 2:22; Gen. 4:26; 12:8; Deut. 4:7; Psa. 99:6; 116:17; 145:18; Isa. 12:2-4; 55:6; 64:7; Lam. 3:55-57

They all say either "calling on his name" or "calling upon the name of the Lord. Who is the Lord? Is it not the Lord Jesus? So should we not say "Oh Lord Jesus?" Does the Bible not tell us to do this?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Jay

...How can we receive the dispensing of God if we are not exercising our spirit sir? How can we be one with God if we are not exercising the right organ to contact him?

How indeed...sir. It's pretty simple.

He is GOD. We depend on him, not the other way around. Witness Lee was a "methodist" who taught that we depend on Lee's methods instead of God and God's mercy and his great love for us.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


I can GUARANTEE you that I don't follow Witness Lee's methods, and haven't for 20 or so years. I don't "call Oh Lord Jesus" and haven't for 20 years. I talk to God. Every day. He talks to me. I listen to him. I obey him. When I mess up, he tells me. I tell him I'm sorry. I don't "exercise my spirit". Oneness with God doesn't depend on "exercising the right organ to contact him". This sounds absurd.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, art in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you hast sent me.
22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.


It's much harder to follow Witness Lee's methods than it is to follow the living and loving God. I never knew for sure if I was really "in spirit". I haven't asked myself such a ridiculous question in...20 years? It's truly easier to please God than it is to please the elders, and get all the methods right.

Nell

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

How indeed...sir. It's pretty simple.

He is GOD. We depend on him, not the other way around. Witness Lee was a "methodist" who taught that we depend on Lee's methods instead of God and God's mercy and his great love for us.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


I can GUARANTEE you that I don't follow Witness Lee's methods, and haven't for 20 or so years. I don't "call Oh Lord Jesus" and haven't for 20 years. I talk to God. Every day. He talks to me. I listen to him. I obey him. When I mess up, he tells me. I tell him I'm sorry. I don't "exercise my spirit". Oneness with God doesn't depend on "exercising the right organ to contact him". This sounds absurd.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, art in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you hast sent me.
22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.


It's much harder to follow Witness Lee's methods than it is to follow the living and loving God. I never knew for sure if I was really "in spirit". I haven't asked myself such a ridiculous question in...20 years? It's truly easier to please God than it is to please the elders, and get all the methods right.

Nell

Welp the Bible tells us to call on the Lord, so idk what to tell you man. I'm sorry that you got hurt by controlling elders or whatever. I have been too and that's a problem. But it's very difficult to bash Lee on his interpretation of the Bible. Verrrrrry very difficult and I haven't seen much if any success on that so far from this site. I think probably the only thing I've seen is the misbehavior of the elders which seems to be backed up by certain old testament verses which Nee and Lee used to justify deputy authority and subsequently misused that so called authority, as I've seen evidence for, and experienced myself in the LC. That's about it. I think everything else is either a stretch or an unfounded attack

Look if you got hurt by elders etc. that's one thing. But to try to malign someone's validity by claiming their doctrine is wrong.....you better be correct in trying that. I haven't seen much correctness with regards to that

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

How indeed...sir. It's pretty simple.

He is GOD. We depend on him, not the other way around. Witness Lee was a "methodist" who taught that we depend on Lee's methods instead of God and God's mercy and his great love for us.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


I can GUARANTEE you that I don't follow Witness Lee's methods, and haven't for 20 or so years. I don't "call Oh Lord Jesus" and haven't for 20 years. I talk to God. Every day. He talks to me. I listen to him. I obey him. When I mess up, he tells me. I tell him I'm sorry. I don't "exercise my spirit". Oneness with God doesn't depend on "exercising the right organ to contact him". This sounds absurd.

John 17:21 That they all may be one; as you, Father, art in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you hast sent me.
22 And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.


It's much harder to follow Witness Lee's methods than it is to follow the living and loving God. I never knew for sure if I was really "in spirit". I haven't asked myself such a ridiculous question in...20 years? It's truly easier to please God than it is to please the elders, and get all the methods right.

Nell

.....but I'm not downplaying your experience and relationship with God. I do think talking to him and listening to him are very valid ways to experience him and maintain a relationship with him. But I can't agree that calling on the Lord is any type of erroneous method that you're claiming it is. We could call walking a method. Is it the only way to get from one place to another? No, we could drive, ride, or fly also. So is walking erroneous because there are other methods of transportation?

Calling on the name of the Lord is the quickest way to get into one's spirit in my estimation. It's immediate. But I suppose if one really knows their spirit and has had much experience with walking in and by their spirit then it's possible that you wouldn't need to say "Oh Lord Jesus." But we can't sit here and say the Bible doesn't very much encourage us to do so, because it does

If you're implying that chanting "Oh Lord Jesus" is a culty way of controlling people.....maybe, but I see it as a practical way to touch the Lord himself. Maybe though we could say that Lee's "methods" are some type of neurolinguistic programming that kind of distract people from other types of practices. We could dip into that a bit maybe. Maybe those in the LC are so used to practicing "methods" that the methods themselves lose efficacy. That's possible

Originally Posted by Nell

It's much harder to follow Witness Lee's methods than it is to follow the living and loving God. I never knew for sure if I was really "in spirit". I haven't asked myself such a ridiculous question in...20 years? It's truly easier to please God than it is to please the elders, and get all the methods right.

Nell

I was a member of the LC for many years. I unfortunately was fooled when I was young, by the LC recruiters. I came to realization that what the LC teaches and promotes, is the same concept of evolution that’s promoted by secular society to deny God. I understood that just like in the theory of Darwin, monkey couldn’t possibly become a human being with soul and spirit, nether in the theory of Lee a men could never become God, or same in life and nature.

I could be wrong, but I feel like Lee just used the same analogy and the Big Bang became the event when “God became a men”, therefore through the process of evolving and some dispensing, one can become God. I love the Lord, and I believe that God is amazing and loving. But one thing that I understood, that something that was created can never ever be equal to or of the same as something that was not created. God has no beginning and no end, He absolutely not ever changing or evolving, or ever needed to do anything that I was taught in LC. Jesus came into this world to redeem His creation, reuniting it with the Father. That’s the love, grace, care, and the ultimate resolve that most of us will never grasp or understand until we see Him face to face! I’m so glad today that those things that I was exposed to in LC are no longer part of my life in any shape or form. It’s liberating and feels like you actually experiencing a real loving God, after years of some systematic destruction by Lee and his successors.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I believe that Witness Lee employed terms like "God's Economy" as a means to draw and then separate individuals from the broader Body of Christ. Additionally, concepts such as the teaching of the local ground of the church and practices like pray-reading and calling on the name of the Lord were similarly utilized to create a sense of exclusivity and control. Much like Jehovah Witnesses emphasize the name "Jehovah" and Seventh Day Adventists prioritize observing the Sabbath, Witness Lee emphasized buzzwords such as "God's Economy" and "Lord's Recovery," as well as phrases like "exercise your Spirit”, “sense of life” to isolate and bind believers.

The term "economy" appears only a handful of times in the writings of Paul, indicating that it is not of central importance compared to themes like Christ, the cross, repentance, holiness, and salvation, which are extensively emphasized throughout the Bible. Furthermore, the interpretation of "God's Economy" given by Witness Lee as the mingling and dispensing of the Triune God with tripartite man lacks biblical support and is an erroneous teaching. This perceived exclusivity around the concept of "economy" within the Lord's Recovery hinders genuine fellowship with other Christians outside the movement, creating unnecessary division.

This is an interesting take, which seems to be generally held by people on this forum

I wonder then what is the major theme of the Bible if not God being dispensed into his redeemed members? Personally I can see no greater emphasis than that in the Bible. How can we be holy and righteous outside of Christ? How can we live the Christian life outside of Christ? How can we do any of it through Christ if God doesn't dispense himself into us somehow? It seems that the spirit and its dispensing into our being is the mode and means by which everything in the Christian life is accomplished. Otherwise it would be just us trying to do it all, and we know from Paul's experience that that's futility

BUT, with that said, if Lee and LC leadership uses any major point, even a core correct major point, as a means and mode of control (physically or mentally) then of course that's a big problem that needs to be addressed

If they are doing this, is it knowingly? Or is it perfunctory in order to keep up a type of culture? Lends to a lot of questions