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Old 10-09-2018, 06:46 AM   #1
Evangelical
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Default Discernment of spirits

Reposting this out of the adoption thread:

The genuine anointing can be discerned by applying the test of spirits:

1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15

It is noteworthy that no where does Paul or John direct the believers to consult Scripture for discernment - discernment of spirits requires a spiritual, not theological, solution.

These are the tests that John and Paul gave to the early Christians to be able to discern the spirits and the genuine anointing - and remember at this time Christianity as we know it today did not exist, and paganism/false Christs were more rife then that it is in our "secular Christian culture" today.

Anyone who wants to use other or non-biblical methods to discern because they think they know better are almost sure to reach the wrong conclusions. The categorical "10 ways to tell...." methods that you can find on the internet for trying to discern a good marriage partner, a good job, or even whether a pastor or church is genuine, are also non-biblical approaches and do not work for spirits because they are not spiritual.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:43 AM   #2
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Maybe it's just me. But maybe you should rework your OP to make your point clearer. Or at least add an addendum to it.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:49 AM   #3
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
It is noteworthy that no where does Paul or John direct the believers to consult Scripture for discernment - discernment of spirits requires a spiritual, not theological, solution.
Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 The proverbs (truths obscurely expressed, maxims) of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:

2 To know [skillful and godly] wisdom and instruction;
To discern and comprehend the words of understanding and insight,
3 To receive instruction in wise behavior and the discipline of wise thoughtfulness,
Righteousness, justice, and integrity;
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Old 10-09-2018, 02:08 PM   #4
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Hebrews 4:12 For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

1 The proverbs (truths obscurely expressed, maxims) of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:

2 To know [skillful and godly] wisdom and instruction;
To discern and comprehend the words of understanding and insight,
3 To receive instruction in wise behavior and the discipline of wise thoughtfulness,
Righteousness, justice, and integrity;
That is not offered as a test of spirits for other people, but for self-discernment (see the context of verse 11).

A simple practical example would suffice to show the inadequacy of God's Word for discerning the spirits.

It is impractical to test someone's spirit using God's Word.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:42 PM   #5
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Mr. E.

You are a follower of Witness Lee. You are a member of the Local Church of Witness Lee. You have not repudiated one single teaching, one single practice, or any of the dark, despicable sordid history of the Local Church. Therefore your discernment about legitimate Christian discernment is extremely questionable at best. None your googling and searching the web will change this fact. You are in no position to tell other Christians about disinterment.

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A simple practical example would suffice to show the inadequacy of God's Word for discerning the spirits.
It is impractical to test someone's spirit using God's Word.
So God's Word is inadequate for discerning the spirits? Do you realize how foolish this sounds? You wouldn't even know what spirits were from God and what spirits were not from God without God's Word. Who told you that we are to "test someone's spirit"? You are mixing non-biblical Local Church terminology with the terminology inspired by the Spirit of Truth. What is impractical is to use the teachings of an uneducated, apostle wannabe instead of the living and abiding Word of God.

Your guru, Acting God and Minister of The Age's legitimate, biblical discernment was extremely suspect at best. The man failed the test over and over and over again. The most extreme example of course is his discernment (or lack thereof) between true spirits that "are from God" - the one's that tried to rescue him from himself and his sons over decades - and the spirits that were not from God - the ones that apparently influenced and controlled him (for how long is a matter of debate).
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:59 PM   #6
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Well duh, you're just stating the obvious - anyone can see that I quoted 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 which is from God's Word. A thinking person would realize that I am not contradicting what should be obvious.

Let's think for a moment how did they discern spirits before 1 John, 1 Corinthians were written? Did they consult the New Testament? It didn't even exist yet. But they would have discerned by hearing what the mouth confessed. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are a record of how they tested spirits in the early church.

But I don't see many supporting the use of these scriptures for discernment. I see many arguments of man against the employment of them, and so far no one has justified why 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 should not be used or why they are insufficient.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:00 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
Well duh, you're just stating the obvious
I see your duh, and raise you two duhs.

Quote:
Did they consult the New Testament? It didn't even exist yet.
Well duh. They didn't need to consult the New Testament - they were living and learning among the very ones who wrote the New Testament (duh). Last I checked none of those fellows are out and about these days. Who do you consult, Mr. E? You are only allowed to consult Witness Lee. You are forbidden by the One Publication Bull to consult any other source. The elders of your Local Church (LSM franchise branch office) are forbidden to teach anything that did not proceed from the lips of LǐChángshòu. Therefore, your ability to discern the spirits has been severely limited, if not totally restricted altogether.
Quote:
But I don't see many supporting the use of these scriptures for discernment. I see many arguments of man against the employment of them, and so far no one has justified why 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 should not be used or why they are insufficient.
You just torpedoed your own argument my man. Better give up while you can.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
so far no one has justified why 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 should not be used or why they are insufficient.
1. Paul talks about "Counterfeit apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ, the pseudo apostles." A counterfeit bill is going to look almost like the real thing. How to discern?

2. Jesus says 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me on that day [when I judge them], ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, and driven out demons in Your name, and done many miracles in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them publicly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me [you are banished from My presence], you who act wickedly [disregarding My commands].’

3. Jesus also said 7 You hypocrites (play-actors, pretenders), rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you when he said, 8 ‘This people honors Me with their lips, But their heart is far away from Me.

It is quite obvious from the NT that there will be false Christ's and false apostles. They will do everything in their power to deceive even the elect. But evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. That means they will speak lies, they will say "lord, lord" yet they do not do what the Lord tells them to do. When you obey the Lord's speaking to you then you are proclaiming that He is Lord.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:21 PM   #9
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

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You just torpedoed your own argument my man. Better give up while you can.
Your post proved my point perfectly:

But I don't see many supporting the use of these scriptures for discernment. I see many arguments of man against the employment of them, and so far no one has justified why 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 should not be used or why they are insufficient.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:22 PM   #10
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
1. Paul talks about "Counterfeit apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ, the pseudo apostles." A counterfeit bill is going to look almost like the real thing. How to discern?
Can you explain why Paul and John did not refer to these verses in 1 John and 1 Corinthians? They could have easily referred to the words of Jesus as you have, but they didn't. They presented a completely different way to discern spirits.
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:46 PM   #11
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Can you explain why Paul and John did not refer to these verses in 1 John and 1 Corinthians? They could have easily referred to the words of Jesus as you have, but they didn't. They presented a completely different way to discern spirits.
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God;

This is what we are doing on this forum. We are proving, testing, examining, considering "whether they are of God".

because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I feel this is one of the most important lessons we learned in the LRC. This is a direct referral to what Paul said to the Corinthians, and what Jesus said in the gospels.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

This is John, the same one who said that the word became flesh and tabernacled among us. Saying that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is equivalent to saying that the word of God has been lived out and witnessed by us. I understand this term "confesseth" differently than to just "say". So they "say Lord, Lord" that is not a confession. A confession is where you tell your secret, you tell the truth. Someone masquerading can put on a mask and pretend. Lies are merely from the lips, but a confession is from the heart.

3 and every spirit that [a]confesseth not Jesus is not of God:

This is my biggest issue with the doctrine of MOTA, I feel it is a denial of Jesus. The OT prophesied that Jesus would be "the Minister of the Age". To claim that for yourself or for Watchman Nee is to deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Likewise I feel at its heart the doctrine of the ground of the church denies the Lord's redemption.

and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:34 PM   #12
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Re testing spirits:

Evangelical postulated:
“The genuine anointing can be discerned by applying the test of spirits:

1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15

It is noteworthy that no where does Paul or John direct the believers to consult Scripture for discernment - discernment of spirits requires a spiritual, not theological, solution.

These are the tests that John and Paul gave to the early Christians to be able to discern the spirits and the genuine anointing - and remember at this time Christianity as we know it today did not exist, and paganism/false Christs were more rife then that it is in our "secular Christian culture" today.

Anyone who wants to use other or non-biblical methods to discern because they think they know better are almost sure to reach the wrong conclusions. The categorical "10 ways to tell...." methods that you can find on the internet for trying to discern a good marriage partner, a good job, or even whether a pastor or church is genuine, are also non-biblical approaches and do not work for spirits because they are not spiritual.”

Here are links to the cited verses in context:
https://biblehub.com/blb/1_john/4.htm
https://biblehub.com/blb/1_corinthians/12.htm

Indeed these are good verses to apply to “testing the spirits”. The lordship of Jesus Christ and whether we confess him as Lord or curse Him is key.

ZNPaaneah (ZNP) responded by citing Hebrews 4:12. Here it is in context: https://biblehub.com/blb/hebrews/4.htm. Evangelical responded “That is not offered as a test of spirits for other people, but for self-discernment (see the context of verse 11).

A simple practical example would suffice to show the inadequacy of God's Word for discerning the spirits.

It is impractical to test someone's spirit using God's Word.”

But the context of Hebrews 4 is Paul’s exhortation to be diligent to enter into God’s rest and not fall into disobedience to the good news that has been announced to us through God’s speaking in the Son. And, verse 13 applies “to all creatures” not just oneself. So, I don’t think it can be dismissed so easily as a test of others spirit.

ZNP also cited Proverbs. I found pertinent verses in Proverbs 2 https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/2.htm and 4. https://biblehub.com/bsb/proverbs/4.htm. After reading these I wouldn’t be so quick to drop God’s word when testing a person’s speaking.

Unto Him and ZNP provided good biblical support that some could pass the outward test of saying the words “Lord Jesus” but not living in obedience to His lordship go on to deceive us.

After considering the posts on this thread I just don’t agree with Evangelicals opening post.
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Old 10-13-2018, 06:01 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God;

This is what we are doing on this forum. We are proving, testing, examining, considering "whether they are of God".
Disagree. There is no testing of spirits on this forum unless one applies 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15, which are the verses which show us how to test the spirits. In some versions it states plainly - "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God".


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3 and every spirit that [a]confesseth not Jesus is not of God:

This is my biggest issue with the doctrine of MOTA, I feel it is a denial of Jesus. The OT prophesied that Jesus would be "the Minister of the Age". To claim that for yourself or for Watchman Nee is to deny that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Likewise I feel at its heart the doctrine of the ground of the church denies the Lord's redemption.

and this is the spirit of the antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

I am sure that John had the gnostic gospel in mind of Jesus being a spirit and not a human being, and not as you suggest.

Indeed the context of Hebrews 4 and in particular 4:11 "let us, therefore" is key to understanding its application to ones own self, for self-reflection, as to whether we have ourselves entered God's rest. And the following verse, verse 12, on the application of God's Word to ones own self, where it "divides the soul and spirit", where the Word of God renews our mind and becomes like a mirror (James 1:23-24).

Here lies the practical difficulty of applying Hebrews 4:12 God's Word to divide someone else soul and spirit, in order to discern their spirit - it simply cannot be done and I have never seen it applied successfully in practice.

However in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 the focus is decidedly on others, in some versions it states plainly - "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God". There is no such plain statement in Hebrews 4:12, that we can apply it to test the spirits of others. Neither does 1 John 4 or 1 Cor 12 mention anything of the sort mentioned in Hebrews 4:12.

Furthermore, if Hebrews 4:12 was a suitable test, or worthy of even the slightest consideration, Paul or John most likely would have said so. Paul or John could have, in 1 John 4 and 1 Cor 12, easily mentioned something like Hebrews 4:12 when discussing the discerning of spirits.

The problem with observing the outward things, by way of action or fruit, is that we would not be able to discern the difference between a Christian, a devout Jew, or a devout Muslim or an exceptional humanist.

Although some have raised the point that what a person says may not be from the heart, it also may be the case that a person's actions are merely an act. The Bible, in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 , has already told us what discernment approach is most effective.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:55 AM   #14
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God?
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:42 PM   #15
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I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God?
1 John 2:20 (NIV)
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.


I don't know what term to use, but "gut feeling" isn't wrong. Another expression is "you know what you know". It's the reason UntoHim asked Evangelical "So God's Word is inadequate for discerning the spirits? Do you realize how foolish this sounds?"

We have the anointing from the Holy One, and we know the truth. It's hard to explain, but sometimes you just smell a rat.

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Old 10-14-2018, 01:29 AM   #16
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I have a question here. Is the gut feeling considered as a sign of inner life or Spirit in us? I very often see that Lee promotes inner feelings which are corresponding to God's feeling inside us. Do you think that gut feeling is a sign from God?
No, the only tests we should apply are 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

1 John 2:20 is not about gut feeling. The true and genuine anointing will always affirm the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

This is even alluded to in 1 John 2:22 :

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Do not use feelings to discern the Spirit - that is the error of the Pentecostals, who use music which stimulates emotions. That is how the Kundalini spirit can exist.They do not feel that the Spirit is present unless they have some sort of feeling. Likewise, we should not use the mind/thoughts to discern the Spirit e.g. "today I had a pleasant thought of Christ and that means I have the Spirit of God", or "today I had a negative evil thought and that means I don't have the Spirit". Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. The tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are spiritual tests, and do not rely upon thought or feeling - these tests can not only discern the Spirit but they can help avoid all kinds of error.
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Old 10-14-2018, 02:38 AM   #17
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

Whatever tests you have used on the corruption at LSM obviously are not working for you.

"Test all things, hold on to the good." -- I Thess 5
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Old 10-14-2018, 07:00 AM   #18
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No, the only tests we should apply are 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

1 John 2:20 is not about gut feeling. The true and genuine anointing will always affirm the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

This is even alluded to in 1 John 2:22 :

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

Do not use feelings to discern the Spirit - that is the error of the Pentecostals, who use music which stimulates emotions. That is how the Kundalini spirit can exist.They do not feel that the Spirit is present unless they have some sort of feeling. Likewise, we should not use the mind/thoughts to discern the Spirit e.g. "today I had a pleasant thought of Christ and that means I have the Spirit of God", or "today I had a negative evil thought and that means I don't have the Spirit". Spiritual things can only be discerned by spiritual means. The tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 are spiritual tests, and do not rely upon thought or feeling - these tests can not only discern the Spirit but they can help avoid all kinds of error.
Witness Lee built his empire by playing on the feelings of others.

Above all, remember that what you read on this forum is the opinion or interpretation of others. Don't rely on someone who speaks as though he knows everything when in fact, it's only his opinion. He has no authoritative interpretation of the bible, just like WLee didn't.
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:53 AM   #19
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I also cannot agree that Evangelical's OP presents the complete way to discern spirits. All three verse passages cited refer to discernment by what is spoken (confessing the name); however, as several others have said, there are other verses that state there will be some who say "Lord, Lord" and yet the Lord never knew them. I think we also all know there are many out there using the Lord's name and saying the phrases cited in the Bible as a test for discerning spirits, and yet they are false prophets.

I would say rather that the OP presents a test that is a first-line of defense. Obviously if someone cannot even say "Jesus is Lord" then that alone is ample evidence that can be used for discernment. But if they can say "Jesus is Lord", it seems there is further testing needed for full and proper discernment.

But what is that further testing?

-----

To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling."

Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly.
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Old 10-14-2018, 09:31 AM   #20
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I also cannot agree that Evangelical's OP presents the complete way to discern spirits. All three verse passages cited refer to discernment by what is spoken (confessing the name); however, as several others have said, there are other verses that state there will be some who say "Lord, Lord" and yet the Lord never knew them. I think we also all know there are many out there using the Lord's name and saying the phrases cited in the Bible as a test for discerning spirits, and yet they are false prophets.

I would say rather that the OP presents a test that is a first-line of defense. Obviously if someone cannot even say "Jesus is Lord" then that alone is ample evidence that can be used for discernment. But if they can say "Jesus is Lord", it seems there is further testing needed for full and proper discernment.

But what is that further testing?


-----

To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling."

Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly.
God’s word is that further test, as ZNP pointed us to in Hebrews 4:12 and Proverbs (see Proverbs 2 and 4 links in my last post).
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:33 AM   #21
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To change brief direction about "feeling". I have heard for decades about not "going with our feelings". However, I would say one of the most oft-repeated phrases among brothers in the lead is "How you do feel about such-and-such matter?" "Before I can do anything I need to get the brothers' feeling."

Bizarre for the "regular" saints to be told to avoid their feeling but the ones making the decisions are asked about their feeling constantly.
Amazing how that works, eh?

I have often said that my biggest failure in the LC's was to trust "the brothers" unreservedly.

Supposedly they "cared for our soul," (using Heb 13.17 to their advantage,) actually most elders I knew just did what HQ's told them to do.
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Old 10-14-2018, 01:21 PM   #22
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But what is that further testing?
What are we testing?

Exodus 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating unjust gain; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

If the test is for a leader, elder, "apostle" then

1. Fear God -- (expressions like WL's "the saints lost their virginity" demonstrates a lack of fear of God).
2. Men of Truth -- (WL's depositions are a great example of double speak)
3. Hating unjust gain -- Daystar, etc. are ample proof that PL, TL and WL were not fit to be leaders.


Obviously the NT also gives you the criteria for elders and deacons.
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Old 10-14-2018, 02:43 PM   #23
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Default Re: Discernment of spirits

The problem with the "we need further tests" view is that 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 do not describe any further tests, nor do they say that these tests are not complete. It is only common sense that John or Paul would have said that the tests are not complete if they were.

I believe by people saying the tests are inadequate they mean that they are inadequate for testing the false notions constructed in Christianity about spirits. In Christianity they invent "spirits" or angels for everything, both good and bad, and then test them against criteria which is not found in the bible.

Regarding feelings, there are feelings from the natural man and there are feelings in the Spirit. "avoid your feelings" means avoid your fallen feelings, and "ask about their feeling" means ask about the feeling in the Spirit. For someone who understands the difference between the flesh and the spirit there can be no contradiction.
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Old 10-14-2018, 02:55 PM   #24
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God’s word is that further test, as ZNP pointed us to in Hebrews 4:12 and Proverbs (see Proverbs 2 and 4 links in my last post).
It's good advice for other things but for testing spirits it can lead to the wrong conclusion. Strictly speaking they are not tests of spirits but sound advice for right living. For example, Proverbs 2 is about what is right and wrong "Thus you will walk in the ways of the good and keep to the paths of the righteous". Who are the righteous in these says other than those who keep the Law religiously? Who are the wicked other than those who break the Jewish law?

So a test which employs Jewish Old Testament law is not a good test of spirits. Without 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 , application of Proverbs 2 for testing the spirit could lead us to the conclusion that a devout and religious Jew has God's Spirit. Probably Jews concluded that even Christ was a sinner and unrighteous because he befriended the wicked, contrary to the advice of Proverbs 2.

1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 say nothing about using God's word as a "further test". For example, 1 John 4:2-3 does not say "every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, now use the Scripture to test it further". There's nothing to indicate that the tests are incomplete.
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:49 PM   #25
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The problem with the "we need further tests" view is that 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 do not describe any further tests, nor do they say that these tests are not complete. It is only common sense that John or Paul would have said that the tests are not complete if they were.
A confession that Jesus is Lord and has come in the flesh includes the fact that you do the things He says. That is what "Lord" means.
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Old 10-14-2018, 04:30 PM   #26
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Not necessarily, according to Romans 10:9,

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

To add good works and obedience to confession is to believe in salvation by works.

Your definition changes the meaning of 1 John 4:2-3 to say that a person only has the Spirit if they "do the things He says" i.e. works.
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:20 PM   #27
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No it doesn't, did you look at the context? Jesus is describing building a house, one person digs down to the rock and builds the house on a foundation. The other doesn't.

Your definition of "salvation" does not include obedience to the Lord?

Salvation is not simply a magic formula, it is about having the faith to hear the lord, listen to the Lord and obey the Lord.
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Old 10-14-2018, 05:50 PM   #28
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The only obedience that salvation depends on is to obey by believing (John 6:29). Following that, obedience relates to sanctification and rewards, not eternal salvation.

What if a person stops obeying the Lord, do they lose their salvation? Is it our obedience which saves us?
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Old 10-14-2018, 06:35 PM   #29
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13 Wherefore girding up the loins of your mind, be sober and set your hope perfectly on the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as children of obedience,...17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:

Your understanding of salvation is way too simplistic. You equate our redemption with our coming salvation.
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:32 PM   #30
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I understand the different facets of salvation.

However for the topic concerned about who has the Spirit and who does not, who has the genuine anointing and who doe snot, I think it suffices to constrain our discussion to the salvation of justification by faith alone without works.

You seem to be talking about tests for other aspects of salvation - test of sanctification, test of obedience, test of a faithful servant. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 mentions nothing about those.

If we are faced with someone prophesying regularly in the meeting in the Lord's name, we first should apply 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 to see whether they have the genuine Spirit of God through what the mouth confesses of what the heart believes, before we look at how obedient they are to a set of outward criteria. Their message may even be doctrinally correct, however the anointing may be absent.
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Old 10-15-2018, 05:41 AM   #31
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Salvation by justification by faith includes obeying the word to be baptized. That sets forth a pattern. The Lord speaks a word and we obey by faith.

"Believe and be baptized and you shall be saved"

Abraham obeyed without knowing where he was going, Abraham is a type of our being saved by faith.

Moses gave very specific instructions that had to be obeyed for the passover, another type of our being saved by the redeeming blood of Christ.

PS -- what does doe snot got to do with this?
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:55 AM   #32
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PS -- what does doe snot got to do with this?
Fake anointing doe snot make it real.
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Old 10-15-2018, 04:57 PM   #33
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Salvation by justification by faith includes obeying the word to be baptized.
That's salvation by works right there. Saving faith does not "include" any sort of work, other than to believe. John 6:29 "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent." (ESV). If we make baptism a condition of salvation that is salvation by works essentially.
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:25 PM   #34
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That's salvation by works right there. Saving faith does not "include" any sort of work, other than to believe. John 6:29 "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent." (ESV). If we make baptism a condition of salvation that is salvation by works essentially.
Acts 2:38-41
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Old 10-15-2018, 06:43 PM   #35
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That's salvation by works right there. Saving faith does not "include" any sort of work, other than to believe. John 6:29 "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent." (ESV). If we make baptism a condition of salvation that is salvation by works essentially.
5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name’s sake;

If you are truly "saved by faith" then you will also exhibit the obedience of faith.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:30 PM   #36
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The problem with the "we need further tests" view is that 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 do not describe any further tests, nor do they say that these tests are not complete. It is only common sense that John or Paul would have said that the tests are not complete if they were.
There are further tests contained in 1 John 4. Read v 6 and 20-21 https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/1jo/4/1/s_1163001

v 6 includes "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." So anyone not listening to the apostles' preaching (what is recorded in the Bible) is not from God.
V 21 includes "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar

Evangelical seems to be alone in forcing us to use only three verses for discernment of what one says and is foolhardy to exclude the Bible and the old testament in particular! Dangerous! That's what got a lot of us into trouble in TLR. Run from such talk.

I'm done arguing this point any further.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:38 PM   #37
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There are further tests contained in 1 John 4. Read v 6 and 20-21 https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/1jo/4/1/s_1163001

v 6 includes "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." So anyone not listening to the apostles' preaching (what is recorded in the Bible) is not from God.
V 21 includes "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar
v 6 is not really a "further test" it is part of 1 John 4:2-6. It surely refers to that already mentioned in 1 John 4:2-3. If we reject the apostle's first-hand testimony of 1 John 4:2-3 about Christ's having a human body then we have the spirit of error.


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Evangelical seems to be alone in forcing us to use only three verses for discernment of what one says and is foolhardy to exclude the Bible and the old testament in particular! Dangerous! That's what got a lot of us into trouble in TLR. Run from such talk.

I'm done arguing this point any further.
Using the OT for discernment of the New Testament Spirit of Christ is a bad idea and might lead one to works-based salvation and works-based discernment (the Pharisees evaluated Christ's and the disciple's works against the Old Testament to discern that He was not the Messiah). If the Old Testament was to be used in this case then John and Paul would have referred us to the OT in 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15. They didn't.

Using the Old Testament for spiritual discernment will lead one down the path of Judaism, not Christianity.

Using "the Bible for discernment" is a cover for meaning we pick and choose whatever criteria we like from the New or Old Testaments, and use that to evaluate a person's spirit or ministry. This is none other than a self-driven method of discernment which is quite different to the simple tests proposed by the apostle Paul and John, which served them well in the problems with the gnostics and Judaizers in the early church.
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Old 10-15-2018, 11:43 PM   #38
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5 through whom we received grace and apostleship, unto obedience of faith among all the nations, for his name’s sake;

If you are truly "saved by faith" then you will also exhibit the obedience of faith.
Not necessarily, it is possible to have disobedient children. If obedience was guaranteed then there would be no warnings and exhortations in Scripture to obey God.
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Old Yesterday, 04:45 AM   #39
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There are further tests contained in 1 John 4. Read v 6 and 20-21 https://www.blueletterbible.org/nasb/1jo/4/1/s_1163001

v 6 includes "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." So anyone not listening to the apostles' preaching (what is recorded in the Bible) is not from God.
V 21 includes "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar

Evangelical seems to be alone in forcing us to use only three verses for discernment of what one says and is foolhardy to exclude the Bible and the old testament in particular! Dangerous! That's what got a lot of us into trouble in TLR. Run from such talk.

I'm done arguing this point any further.
These are excellent points. The first verse brings the entire weight of the apostle's fellowship, the NT, into the equation. The second reemphasizes the fact that there are liars and you can judge that not by what they say but by what they do.
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Old Yesterday, 04:46 AM   #40
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Not necessarily, it is possible to have disobedient children. If obedience was guaranteed then there would be no warnings and exhortations in Scripture to obey God.
Being baptized according to the apostle's fellowship is a public exhibition of obedience. This is why the Bible says "believe and be baptized and you shall be saved".
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Old Yesterday, 05:19 AM   #41
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Evangelical seems to be alone in forcing us to use only three verses for discernment of what one says and is foolhardy to exclude the Bible and the old testament in particular!

Dangerous! That's what got a lot of us into trouble in TLR. Run from such talk.

I'm done arguing this point any further.
Another LSM tactic: Keep fighting until the other guy walks away, and then declare victory.
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Old Yesterday, 03:02 PM   #42
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Being baptized according to the apostle's fellowship is a public exhibition of obedience. This is why the Bible says "believe and be baptized and you shall be saved".
Water baptism regeneration is a false doctrine. Many Christians would disagree with you and might even conclude that you do not have the anointing because of the works-based doctrine.

The folk on gotquestions.org for one:

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html

and the folk on CARM:

https://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation


However 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 solves that problem for you, and unlike many Calvinists who would want to reject you for works-based doctrine, I would argue that you do have the genuine anointing as long as you can pass these tests.
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Old Yesterday, 03:03 PM   #43
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Another LSM tactic: Keep fighting until the other guy walks away, and then declare victory.
People walk away when they run out of bible verses. He first presented unrelated scripture in Hebrews and Proverbs, then realized verse 6 might be "another test" even though it is part of the battery of verses I am presenting. Like an Old Testament Jew he would argue for the use of the OT for discerning Christ. Nowhere do John or Paul use the Old Testament for discernment.
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Old Yesterday, 03:42 PM   #44
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People walk away when they run out of bible verses. He first presented unrelated scripture in Hebrews and Proverbs, then realized verse 6 might be "another test" even though it is part of the battery of verses I am presenting. Like an Old Testament Jew he would argue for the use of the OT for discerning Christ.

Nowhere do John or Paul use the Old Testament for discernment.
Jesus Himself used the O.T. for discernment. Are you crazy? "Man shall not live by bread alone ..."

The O.T. is the foundation for the New. Even Lee said as much.

Have you left the LC like we told you to? Seems like you been quoting "Got Questions" a lot lately.
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Old Yesterday, 03:51 PM   #45
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Water baptism regeneration is a false doctrine. Many Christians would disagree with you and might even conclude that you do not have the anointing because of the works-based doctrine.

The folk on gotquestions.org for one:

https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-salvation.html

and the folk on CARM:

https://carm.org/is-baptism-necessary-salvation


However 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 solves that problem for you, and unlike many Calvinists who would want to reject you for works-based doctrine, I would argue that you do have the genuine anointing as long as you can pass these tests.
Stop making up stuff. I never said that water baptism = regeneration. You are so full of it. How repulsive for a Christian. I have simply quoted the NT, you refuse to listen, you can't refute it, so you have to make garbage up. This entire thread is despicable.
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Old Yesterday, 03:56 PM   #46
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People walk away when they run out of bible verses. He first presented unrelated scripture in Hebrews and Proverbs, then realized verse 6 might be "another test" even though it is part of the battery of verses I am presenting. Like an Old Testament Jew he would argue for the use of the OT for discerning Christ. Nowhere do John or Paul use the Old Testament for discernment.
Baloney. "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." This is clearly the apostle referring to someone just like you who refuses to listen to the NT, that is how we know, or how we discern the spirit of error.

In addition ""If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar". This verse demonstrates that saying you love God does not mean you actually love God. The proof is if you love your brother. That is how you discern if someone who says they love God actually does love God. Likewise, if you say "Jesus is Lord" this doesn't prove that you actually believe Jesus is Lord. Hence the Lord's word in Matthew that some who did that were actually workers of iniquity. The proof that "Jesus is Lord" is if you obey His word. If you do, you are not simply saying "Jesus is Lord" it becomes your confession.
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Old Yesterday, 05:03 PM   #47
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Stop making up stuff. I never said that water baptism = regeneration. You are so full of it. How repulsive for a Christian. I have simply quoted the NT, you refuse to listen, you can't refute it, so you have to make garbage up. This entire thread is despicable.
Perhaps I misunderstood you to be saying that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Baptism is an important step of obedience but is not a requirement.
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Old Yesterday, 05:09 PM   #48
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Baloney. "he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." This is clearly the apostle referring to someone just like you who refuses to listen to the NT, that is how we know, or how we discern the spirit of error.

In addition ""If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar". This verse demonstrates that saying you love God does not mean you actually love God. The proof is if you love your brother. That is how you discern if someone who says they love God actually does love God. Likewise, if you say "Jesus is Lord" this doesn't prove that you actually believe Jesus is Lord. Hence the Lord's word in Matthew that some who did that were actually workers of iniquity. The proof that "Jesus is Lord" is if you obey His word. If you do, you are not simply saying "Jesus is Lord" it becomes your confession.
"refusing to listen to the NT" -

I am listening to the apostle John and Paul by applying 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15.

If we are searching for inspiration in Proverbs and the Old Testament - Proverbs and the Old Testament was not written by the apostle John. Baptism, love, or any other works cannot regenerate us.
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Old Yesterday, 06:24 PM   #49
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Perhaps I misunderstood you to be saying that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Baptism is an important step of obedience but is not a requirement.
It is evidence of salvation. You can be saved without any evidence. You can also be saved with a public testimony. You can be married in secret, you can also have a ceremony as a public testimony that you are married.

The evidence that we are saved is our obedience to the Lord. The public testimony of our salvation is our obedience to the Lord. Our confession that Jesus is Lord is our obedience to the Lord.
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Old Yesterday, 10:06 PM   #50
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The evidence that we are saved is our obedience to the Lord.
I respectfully disagree. The evidence we are saved is being washed in the Blood of the Lamb. We cannot even obey without the Power of the Blood of Jesus working in us.

Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses plus countless other 'Christian' groups believe they are obeying the LORD. Are they saved??

Remember:
Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The will of the Father is to put our trust in Jesus and in His cleansing Blood.
We read in John 6:40

For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Keep in mind Jesus had not yet shed His Precious Blood on the cross.

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Old Yesterday, 11:27 PM   #51
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It is evidence of salvation. You can be saved without any evidence. You can also be saved with a public testimony. You can be married in secret, you can also have a ceremony as a public testimony that you are married.

The evidence that we are saved is our obedience to the Lord. The public testimony of our salvation is our obedience to the Lord. Our confession that Jesus is Lord is our obedience to the Lord.
It seems we agree then since you said evidence is not a requirement for salvation.

1 John 4:2 is a simple test of confession:

1 John 4:2 "By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,"

Similarly, Scripture says:

Phil 2:11 "every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord..."

Roman 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord ..."
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Old Today, 05:41 AM   #52
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I respectfully disagree. The evidence we are saved is being washed in the Blood of the Lamb. We cannot even obey without the Power of the Blood of Jesus working in us.
Being washed in the blood is the fact. You receive that by faith. It has been once for all done. But what is the evidence that a person has been washed in the blood?

If a person commits a crime of murder that is the fact. The evidence might be fingerprints, possession of the murder weapon, gun shot residue, photographic evidence placing the person at the scene, etc. None of the evidence is the crime, only evidence that this person is the one who committed it.
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Old Today, 02:50 PM   #53
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I knew that Calvinist vs Arminian perspectives would show up in this thread when talking about salvation.

They are only a matter of perspectives and John's test of spirits can help reconcile the differences. Because they place the focus not on how we are saved but believing in the right person. The early church did not have arguments about these things because how we are saved is not as important as believing in the right person.

1 John 4:2-6 for example comes from the fact that the apostle John knew Christ in the flesh. He knew that Christ was not merely a ghost without flesh and blood. He knew that anyone who encountered Christ would declare Him as Lord, and not be able to call Him accursed.

For these reasons these simple tests of the spirit work time and time again. Paul did not know Christ in the flesh but did have his heavenly visitations confirmed by the prophets and the early church leaders in Jerusalem.

Paul serves as an example for us today who only know Christ by the Spirit and not by the flesh. For this reason the genuine Spirit of Christ must match the historical testimony of the apostles as per 1 John 4:2-6. However the emphasis should be upon the person of Christ and not our obedience or love.

Some people "obey Christ" and love Him but they consider him a homosexual role model or as a 6 foot tall blue eyed magazine model. Obviously their loving attitude and obedience does not turn their false idea of Christ into the real one.

Some have mentioned that it may not always be genuine. However it is extremely unlikely that anyone praying to and confessing Christ has a demon, because demons cannot stand the name of Jesus. There are testimonies of people demon possessed who cannot name the name of Jesus.

While it can be faked it is very unlikely that a person will be able to keep up appearances for too long. Especially in an environment where the name of Jesus is invoked regularly by calling upon His name. However it is easy to fake in a denomination which only has forms, rituals and prayers to "God". I encountered this myself in a multi-faith denomination I once attended where "God" could be a mother, a father, a Buddha, or anyone you wanted it to be. If the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 were applied I doubt that many even the pastor could have met the tests.

There are even testimonies of people who have called on the name of the Lord in a mocking way but have ended up receiving the Spirit and becoming a genuine believer and the bible suggests this in Mark 9:39, where even people using the Lord's name in vain will not be able to speak negatively about Him.

If your Christianity is merely a religious concept with doctrines about how we are saved, then the tests of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 may not be sufficient for you. You might seek other tests such as do you believe in TULIP or do you follow Calvin, or do you believe in the evidence of tongues. But if you know the genuine Spirit and Christ as the apostle John and Paul did, then these tests are more than sufficient for discerning the vast majority of spirits because they reflect the genuine historical Jesus that apostles actually knew. It is the rare case that a demon will succeed in pretending to know the Lord Jesus and successfully fool anyone who knows the historical Jesus. In such a case we can use further historical facts about Christ to confirm the true identity of the spirit we encounter. For example, if a demon declares itself to know the Lord Jesus.. we can question further whether that Jesus is actually "Jesus of Nazareth".

This is reflected in Mark 1:24 where demons refer to Jesus as "Jesus of Nazareth".

Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

Sometimes a demon might pretend to be another Jesus, like "Jesus of Barcelona", so further historical and biblical facts may be required.
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