Testimony of an Ex-Donguismo

[aron]

(Translated from Portuguese, with name removed)

The Localism, the Localism Witness Lee and Donguismo

First I would like to make it clear that I wanted to do an academic study referenced and better, but I do not have the time to do so. Maybe in the future I can do and share with friends.

Thus, pressed by the commitment of my statement on Facebook about this matter, I will try, within my power, present something about these religious systems that induce to error, which I had direct contact over more than 20 years.

I will support this with the development of my personal testimony, which I made public (abridged version) on my Facebook page in order to clarify my departure from the Movement of Dong Yu Lan local church, or Donguismo.

For further clarification, also I will be forwarding some books files published on the subject in English and / or translated to Portuguese by application (unedited).

To still have time to improve the display, I will send it in parts, starting with the Localism.

Unless we understand localism error system, we do not realize the mistake of localismode WL and the aberration of Donguismo.

Localism is an extremely divisive and superb religious system, which has a "biblical" garment, which comes at a time of decadence and maximum degradation of the Protestant Reformation and the Denominational Movement (recommend the book "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola in Annex ).

The children of God who have perceived the deviations of organized Protestantism were very touched by the "Restoration of the Lord."

I can not say that the Holy Spirit has not used some momentum of this movement, but we can not deny either that the Holy Spirit blows where it wills, and thus not justify the committed deviations.

I understand that in every generation believers faced their difficulties.

There is an ongoing conflict institutional and non-institutional Church (The Pilgrim Church of Edmund Broadbent Hamer, Spanish version, in Annex).

There is also no denying that there is thousands of genuine Christians within the institutional system, however, for my life, I want to clarify, I took the decision to go outside and fight for the saints who are there are built.

I knew little of Catholicism, but his mistakes are so obvious, that I believe it is not necessary to point them.

I met denominational movement, but his mistakes are so obvious, that I believe it is not necessary to point them.

I met localism, localism WL, and Donguismo. I scoured its tracks and uncovered his enconderijos.

It is subtle and perverse.

And after walking by it for more than 20 years, I have duty to explain to my friends my belief.

Still do not know very well live the Christian life in the freedom of the Spirit and under the unique headship of Christ, but I am absolutely convinced that it is better to spend time in the dungeon of localism.

The Localism Witness Lee: (2nd part of the testimony)

If on the one hand you can enjoy a lot of WN, it seems that WL was based on what was completely dispensable.

Administrative capacity, eloquence and asceticism made him a living legend and one representative from their own movement.

The reigning idolatry is disgusting, but in the eyes of his followers is proud of.

I can say that the symptom 1 that something was not going well in the "Kingdom of Denmark" has this phobia by WL.

At that time, even in the 90s, I began to see Dong's leadership as the only and last hope of restoration, to get rid of the cult of WL and submission to its administrative arm, Living Stream Ministry.

I do not want this witness a document on WL and your LSM as there are many publications on this.

I suggest at this critical line, the book's consultation The Hope and Future John Myer, and website: www.LocalChurchDiscussions.com where there are several very informative materials and based Nigel Tomes and other siblings.

While these articles speak much and theological way about it, I think is still important to make some considerations on the subject of the local church.

I can say that, in my perception and experience, there are three extremely sectarian, dogmatic and heretical movements, using WN's teachings concerning the church:

1) localism or the local church,

2) localism Witness Lee / LSM, and

3) Donguismo / AV / bookafé.

Localism is the result of misinterpretation and use the teachings of Watchman Nee regarding the church. I do not think it is possible to attribute responsibility for WN the fact that people have developed this system error about an alleged base of the unit, or base of the church or ground of locality, and that WN has been his mentor and founder.

There are many articles and books condemning WN localism, particularly in the book, "The Normal Christian Church Life," which is used in contradictory ways as a kind of localism Bible.

The localism imagine that the "witness of the church" may be "patented" as if it were a product or an invention entitled to ownership or right to royalties.

A group presents itself as if it were the church Land owner and, from this point, those who wish to "participate in the witness of the church" have to go to this group and "submit" to his leadership.

It is quite possible that the concept of subordination inherent in Chinese culture, Buddhist and Confucian, has led the followers of localism to join the maximum respect for authority or leadership in the context of the base of the local church.

The book "Authority and Submission", attributed to WN, constituted the greatest weapon to produce a hostage of church leaders among those who give credit to the logic of theology of the local church.

Localism Witness Lee fully absorb these distortions, while it creates a kind of succession line WN to WL.

The eloquence to expose teachings and interpretations of the Bible and extensive WL literature becomes the "bait" to fish adherents to this movement, which sooner or later will require the declaration or acceptance that WL is the oracle this was the divine and sent to conduct a so-called "Lord's recovery."

There is a whole theology to convince followers who wish to progress within the Movt about WL: he is "the wise master builder", the "follower of the Rev. Paul", "without his teachings the Bride can not be adorned for the bridegroom." ..

A true supporter of this movement and Leader can not keep up or progress if not defend this basic adage. Nothing is more important than this.

I heard and saw about it. No one can tell me otherwise. Admittedly, unwary or beginners may not be required to defend this concept in its introduction phase in the movement, but this will be absolutely indispensable to their progress.

At a meeting of co-workers held in Anaheim, USA, throughout the 2000s, the following statement on the "Restoration of the Lord" (I was there and I heard very well) was made:

"- You guys need to know what is the Lord's Recovery. She is:

1) which said WL,

2) what did WL, and

3) what would WL. "

Perhaps some partisan WL localism try to react against this, but I doubt it's someone with responsibility or recognition within the Movement.

The question that shocked me was not what was said, but that it represented exactly what the motion was.

Friends, this is the WL of localism: 1) which said WL, 2) what did WL, and 3) what would WL.

Meetings of workers in Anaheim were permeated considerations about it. Nothing could have been mentioned or promoted without these fundamentals were supported.

It was the purest demonstration of idolatry. I could not wait to get out. But do not think it is easy to take any position, because the content of the messages was "fantastic". The cult of revelation WL is the fuel of the entire structure of LSM and its affiliated congregations.

The whole theology of localism WL and its LSM is focused on these three items. If this is over the movement disappear.

Nothing is more essential than this. The teaching of the scriptures, living the gospel, training, conferences, everything is done on WL's work, whom some of its leaders say they will give account on the day of judgment (I heard one of the main collaborators mention this).

U can choose: get up and challenge them, creating a lot of confusion where u can not change anything, or simply go out and follow your own course?

Today qdo I realize that many fans Donguismo, for not supporting their aberrations, return to the WL of localism, I see how the Communists of Mao Zedong convert to communism of Stalin, that is, the essence will not change anything .

Let the Donguismo. (Part 3) - Continued

The Donguismo (Part 3)

The Donguismo is a system error that:

1) It is based on the theological misconception / doctrine of localism (which is mainly characterized in taking or establish the limits of the locality as a foundation other than of Jesus Christ);

2) It is influenced by the more negative aspects of the movement of Witness Lee / LSM, such as the personality cult of "The Prophet" and "The Apostle", a supposed line to Watchman Nee, and the ministerial promotion through exploration and negotiation of the books and lectures of "absolute and supreme leader of the Lord recovery"; and

3) It is entirely degraded by heretical and mystical self-centeredness of Dong Yu Lan, his impositive and repetitive practices (which stand out from the "deny the life of the soul" and "call" - which are used as brainwashing means the Rather than lead believers to a healthy and free life experience), and his unhealthy fascination marketing of faith (coming to rave assume that the Holy Spirit gave him the revelation of a business that will be responsible for the return of Christ - called bookafé).

It's hard to tell how the Holy Spirit works within the limits of Dong's movement, but one thing is certain, its vestiges are in complete and utter extinction.

I confess that I is costly report on what left me exhausted.

Speaking of Donguismo is like coming to a funeral time, which only makes sense because the Father of lights gave us strength (to me and my house) to overcome it and thus I feel indebted to those who are still stuck into their traps, or those who may be being co-opted to participate in this Sino-American system, they found ground among the slaves of this Land of the Holy Cross.

A brief account continuing to experiment with the WL of localism:

"For 20 years I have been active member and leader of this movement, also known as" the Lord's Recovery ". Their doctrine was based on the teachings of so-called Brethren, which had a major impact in Communist China, where the highlight was a local leader named Watchman Nee, who is well known in evangelical circles.

It is possible that u know something about it, but it is reasonable to mention that Watchman Nee was arrested in 1950 and died in Chinese prison in 1972. His movement but grew and spread in the East. In the 60s some of his followers or companions went to the US and from there took his teachings to many countries. At this point the work of WN had already reached all continents.

Under the influence of the writings of WN were several groups and movements, including the well-known local church.

I came across a segment of this movement in 1991 in Brasilia. This group was led, and still is, by a Chinese (Dong Yu Lan), who came to Brazil and settled since the early 60's How I relished the WN's teachings, which seemed correct in the light of scriptures, I began to attend meetings and to serve their communities.

At the time I was captain, soon promoted to Major (Infantry / EB), and serving as President of the Republic, with a very well underway and successful career.

In 1995, with only four years in the Donguismo, he invited me to be one of his Cooperators.

I was absolutely fascinated by religious rise. This led me to make some decisions (whether led by the Spirit or not, I can not say, but certainly God uses His sovereignty to achieve his goals).

The normal delivery of military career led me to the Command and General Staff Course, whose school is in Rio de Janeiro.

I had given competition in 92 and had been approved on 1st try (I was the 3rd place in EsAO, the first 2 are exempted from competition therefore needed to take the tests).

Thus, after having guaranteed access, and defer enrollment in the course 3 times, I ended up declining to make EsCEME (a true madness). But by then I was determined to leave the military career to devote myself to the service of the gospel full-time. No one could stop me. There were no arguments that made me ponder.

I desperately tried to participate in the Conferences, Trainings and improvements promoted by the Church of Dong Yu Lan Local or Tree of Life (there is no way to identify the Donguismo too well).

That was the way to progress. To be present at all. I was very dedicated in the profession, and needed to keep pace in religion, although not admit it was religion - I said it was "the church."

We can not ignore God's plan. Today I still wonder why there changed my course, left the profession and deepened me this cult?

On one hand I penitencio me for not agreed in time, but on the other, I feel that the father needed an operator of special forces to infiltrate into the bowels of this religious mafia and obtain their secrets.

So in the late '90s I could let the EB to fully dedicate myself to "Work of God". My last commission was in Army Intelligence Center. My goodbyes were watered with tears of turmoil. Praise, memories, victories and medals were released as ashes in the sea of ​​nostalgia. But I did not think about anything but to "follow Christ and the church."

In this period of nearly 10 years of association with the "church in Brasilia" and the regional and international work, I dove even deeper into the service.

Since 94 I was already involved with:

- Conferences for Youth, local, regional, national and international;

- I sold my only property he owned in Rio de Janeiro to buy land and build a small apartment in the condominium resort Tree of Life (qq there was no document, it was all for the church, the owner acquired a usage assignment)

- Project Coordination: I wanted to participate in all endeavors as Expobook (one Outreach Project with bus transformed into libraries); CEAPE emerged (Improvement Center for Propagation of the Gospel), which I have prepared almost all of the 80 lessons, a Herculean task within the WN and WL publications; School of the Gospel, which I was the mastermind in order to care for young people and adolescents and to prepare them to preach the gospel and to behave as citizens; Books unions, which established quotas to members, however, almost went bankrupt, and there was no qq voluntary return, but "consider as offering" But qdo it was presented, it was like "a business or investment that could turn a profit."

- In the early 2000s, due to the success of the School of the Gospel, we promote visiting every city in the state of Goiás, in a project called "Summer 2000", ie all summer to Christ this summer. We occupy our holiday with teams of satellite towns and Planning.

During the period I was still working, the reconciliation of my work in PR and responsibilities of a brother "Responsible and Cooperator" made me a real balancing act.

I had a phobia of wanting to do everything.

I actually believed was promoting the return of the Lord Jesus, introducing people reached the "Restoration of the Lord."

Came the obsession to "conquer the land" for Christ.

In 2000 I took the lead in evangelizing Project in Africa, where I devoted most of my time over 10 years.

I personally scoured 25 countries, and coordinated congregations and workers in over 40 countries, while being visited 52 of the 54 countries of the continent.

Within the movement I progressed and came to be considered a leader and international cooperative, and participated in various activities and events for several countries, mainly in the United States. There I met the main leadership of the International Local Church Movement, also known as Living Stream Ministry (LSM), which is a religious institution and Editorial founded to promote the ministry of its supreme leader, Witness Lee, a WN follower, known for their Bible studies and forceful criticism of evangelical and denominational Christianity.

The Local Church Movement led by Dong Yu Lan in Brazil and South America was considered part of the Ministry of Witness Lee, from the arrival of DYL here until the death of Witness Lee in 1997.

But from WL's death, the relationship between the leadership of LSM and DYL, which has never been good, has been deteriorating to the total disruption of these movements and their congregations in 2005 and officially in 2009, when a Letter of Quarantine has been published the DYL.

I participated actively in this process of separation of the LSM with DYL, mainly because he considered extremely idolatrous WL Movement, centralized and authoritarian. These deviations were notorious and affected the consciousness of the brothers, particularly those that related internationally. There was an expectation, at least on my part, that in this break, the Local Church movement in Brazil and South America could fix their deviations, and bring his teachings to their practice.

Almost simultaneously, and as the work progressed in Africa and was successful, problems with the DYL leadership began to arise and develop, either in the teaching field, and in practice. In addition I began to question the Movement administration.

Although he was considered a leader, he did not participate in its management, but the Work in Africa, which I managed, is the movement of people and resources. At the time it was granted a Power of Attorney by the Association Tree of Life, for we function as a branch in Brasilia, with the specific purpose of supporting evangelization in Africa.

I thought up there, that all he was doing was by God and for God, but my conscience was becoming more sensitive, because of the inconsistencies I found, particularly in increasing promotion ladder, in your institution, and in business that arose with argument to sustain the work.

In 2008 I moved to São Paulo, in a maneuver exhausting logistics, which seriously compromised my family budget and care for my children. There are several versions on this topic, however, at that time I felt that I should approach the DYL leadership to try to somehow positively influence Movement direction. (some movement advocates said I had gone to SP to give a kind of "coup in DYL" qta imagination!)

At that time I had invested everything he had, property, family, and career on the belief that this movement was an expression of the restored church on earth. Would not it be logical that in the face of difficulties, I simply depart. I really wanted to make "the church" into something that rewards the dedication of the people.

The story is long. Facebook's Notes address in particular this disruption process. I am attaching some files that seek to describe a sequence of events.

Then came the administrative issue and the fear of legal responsibility.

In São Paulo I took note of a Warrant Search and Seizure, which was issued (later halted), due to a Concealment Process Goods and Money Laundering Association against the Tree of Life (AAV).

Were evident signs of administrative irregularities, particularly in resort Tree of Life, where a son of DYL managed an Engineering Company, which at the time was the only one to carry out works at Estancia (meeting place of the Congregations, an auditorium, accommodation, houses and hotel).

The ghost of being a mere orange, providing credibility to the operations, which at least seemed unethical by the Movement summit, began to haunt me.

I worried about being corresponsabilizado for something I lived, but not adequately met, and certainly not agree.

After the episode of the Warrant I went to the resort to talk to one of the main leaders of the Movement, who lived there (Ezra Ma, the chief marketer of Dong Yu Lan).

Surely it was aware qq thing that occurred there. So I argued with him in front of irregularities, what should be our position?

We should just sit on the 1st row and make clear to the brothers who were approving all that was done?

I told him to all the letters that I would not be Orange Movement, and that if there were any irregular or unethical situation, as such Engineering Company that had the monopoly of the works of EAV, so that the situation be corrected because they do not should expect from me what solidarity was not fair and legal.

He claimed not to know anything, but "the administration of EAV was a kind of black box, the Dong's exclusivity."

I argued that, if so, only after the crash is that we would know its contents. Finally we said goodbye. I think he got the message, they could not "trust" me administrative secrets.

There are other episodes that have marked my discontent and frustration.

There was a training in Pocos de Caldas (I think it was in 2009, in the 1st half) to promote the "current move of God," which at that time was through "banners and books of exhibitors".

For me, it completely lost the spiritual sense. A kind of "brainwashing" was characterized, which sought to "convince" the participants at the private setting method, permeated by repetitive, tiresome and theatrical witnesses and under the tireless and insatiable president of Dong Yu Lan, until all surrendered the "evidence" that it really was the work of "Holy Spirit". It is very likely that some had already noticed that I was nearly "edge."

I believe that from here, I had no future projections that place. My concern was how to referral and care for brothers and communities generated in Africa.

In October 2010, because of various events and disagreements, I broke completely with that movement. It was true that no longer recognized the group as "the church", neither its leadership as "anointed of God."

The main motivation that kept me yet integrated into the Group, as I said, it was like meet and take care of the families of full-time brothers who served in Africa, since the funds came from the congregations under the leadership DYL.

I understand that the events that preceded this disruption were not masked to African workers, and the decision of what to do before the apparent reduction of resources, because of the ministerial separation, would be at the discretion of each. This turned out and, miraculously, Heavenly Father has provided care to those who preferred to preserve the purity of their service, ie, they did not accept the impositions of the DYL Movement and also broke the relationship with him.

The episode that ended this disruption process occurred at the construction office in Africa in Brasilia. Files and administrative responsibilities I exerted myself were taken without warning, as in a police operation (I was away, traveling in Africa). This unusual situation, which could have been carried out with transparency, because the right of that function was sustained by an attorney, was carried rudely cable.

Given this, I remained two options: drive my moral, financial and professional damage to a human court, or follow my path of recovery. So me and my house we decided to take the damage, resuming our lives and leave the judgment to God.

Although it has lost many things, including physical health, I have preserved the faith, courage and a companion: Facebook.

The Movement decried me, guiding his followers not to speak with me. However, some members and companions, because they know me, too broke and continued friendship and care.

I went back to work. I got opportunities and today I am consultant hired by a Great Construction Company, in its defense business.

Gradually regained health and financial condition.

For all I saw and went through, I am absolutely convinced that man's religion has nothing to do with the Lord Jesus and with God, however, have always been opponents.

Sorry realize yet, especially in the movement from which I came, the commitment of many faithful, consuming their time, resources and faith itself (seen as occurs with many who left), serving religion and, day by day, up disappointed with it .

It is sad to see the proposed consecration being presented in the name of God, and people devoting their assets to support ideas of a sick and self-centered mind.

I do not intend to convince or convert people of anything, nor could, but I can neither ignore facts and experiences.

It would be a sin to keep silent. Some later on historical analysis of events may question whether the silence would not be a crime of omission.

I understand that there is not much I can do, particularly to members of the DYL Movement, because people are unnerved when talking to religious leaders, however trust in the heavenly Father who sovereignly all-seeing, all controls and ensures so their children are cared for.

I hope everyone there is freed and can finally experience real freedom in the Spirit and the unique headship of Christ.

Still echo in my ears a meeting that was hosted by Dong Yu Lan in the presence of the directors of AV Publisher in one of the rooms on the premises of AV Publisher and residence of Dong Yu Lan, in São Paulo, to try to get my "repentance ".

He talked about my "attacks" to their "ministry" and gave me the word.

I just repeated the observations he had made in the letter that I write to him, pointing to the problem of discomfort on the promotion of Dong Yu Lan and AV by congregations over the name of the Lord, and neglect the Word of the Apostles and of the Lord Jesus Himself in particular the emphasis on the teaching and practice with respect to business.

At this point there was something quite remarkable. When I mentioned that it was unacceptable that the "restoration" ignore the words of the Lord Jesus, so I started to quote the verse that Jesus spoke in the temple, "it is written, my house ..." (Luke 19:46). I could not finish. Dong Yu Lan stood up and started screaming, "Enough! Enough! U will not convince me of anything. If u want to follow me, follow me, if u do not want to follow me, do not follow me. " (with Chinese translation into Portuguese)

This is Donguismo !!!!

Enough I say. Arrives !!!!!!!!!! Of Donguismo.

I hope no soul remains under Donguismo domain and that all there to experience a normal and healthy Christian life.

Today I have no link with qq religious institution, but rather with people who believe in the Lord Jesus and wishing to love Him and our neighbor.

I feel now much better than it was, keeping faith, family life and healthy social life and in the light of the Lord.

I was accused of religious ambition and stuff. Admittedly, I can not give up the commission entrusted to all believers, but neither did qq these things in the pursuit of personal advancement or any religious position. No doubt, who keeps such an idea, do not know me or never known me.

The Donguismo took the form of a criminal organization, fraud, one larceny, whose victims, mostly wanted to live and practice the gospel in its essence and purity.

The Donguismo turned a group of Christian seekers of faith and truth in a hierarchical structure, separated by regions, full of peculiar naming titles, with very strong vocation to proselytism, strongly inclined to farce to permeate among the other groups, always in hope to co-opt a follower more, to make it subject to unique and sovereign leadership of their guru: Dong Yu Lan.

The Donguismo is a religious freak, which was built under the shade of a good idea, but it was lost in pride. Dong Yu Lan is constituted in a typical and exemplary case of a "false prophet" champion unfulfilled threats and curses. (including my destruction and my home, like I was a rebel and he Moses, the similarity of Korah, Dathan and Abiram, but not his prophecy was fulfilled)

In seeking to achieve the kingdom of heaven on earth, hundreds of people were "bewitched" by the different format of Christianity, but that little by little, was returning to the theatrical cast of pagan cults, mixed with music and eloquent preaching of Dong's followers.

That Dong Yu Lan can truly repent before leaving this life, and allow the saints go back to where they should never leave: the freedom of the Spirit and the only headship of Christ.

There is much to talk yet, but I believe it is enough.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

After the episode of the Warrant I went to the resort to talk to one of the main leaders of the Movement, who lived there (Ezra Ma, the chief marketer of Dong Yu Lan).

Surely it was aware of the thing that occurred there. So I argued with him in front of irregularities, what should be our position?

We should just sit on the 1st row and make clear to the brothers who were approving all that was done?

I told him to all the letters that I would not be Orange Movement, and that if there were any irregular or unethical situation, as such Engineering Company that had the monopoly of the works of EAV, so that the situation be corrected because they do not should expect from me what solidarity was not fair and legal.

He claimed not to know anything, but "the administration of EAV was a kind of black box, the Dong's exclusivity."

I argued that, if so, only after the crash is that we would know its contents. Finally we said goodbye. I think he got the message, they could not "trust" me administrative secrets.

On another thread I was remarking on the similarity seen in the LC, the Shouters, the Lord Changshou sect, and the EL cult:

-Secrecy;
-Tight operational control;
-And elevating top leadership to a kind of mystical, god-like status.

Ezra Ma's statement that administration of the EAV (the Estancia Arvora Da Vida, the LSM of Brasil) was a "black box", the purview of Dong Yu Lan alone, probably shows an aspect of this kind of group.

In each one of these groups you can make out these themes, or hallmarks, of them all.

[aron]

I think Donguismo in Portuguese means something similar to the English, "Lee-ite", or "Dong-ite" or "Chu-ite".

[Freedom]

This is an interesting testimony. What is striking are the parallels to Lee, even so much as DYL's son being put in charge of a business and the claims of money laundering. With respect to DYL and WL, the apple really didn't fall far from the tree. This is something that has been completely ignored by LSM leaders. They see those like TC or DYL and the havoc that is being wrecked (not to mention their own blended havoc), and then assume the problem can all be amounted to a brother being "off". Did anyone ever realize even for a second that the existence of TC and DYL can be credited to Lee? They both spawned from him. Just consider the life of King Lee, he was a one man show, claiming to be carrying out "God's move". He was viewed a sole source of authority and as God's mouthpiece on earth. It shouldn't surprise anyone that brothers saw this example and followed suit.

In the case of DYL, it sounds like some pretty bizarre teachings have been introduced. LSM leaders, being unable to understand the monster that Lee created, have sought to quarantine him as if that would solve the problem. Why does no one every question how all this nonsense comes about in the first place? They will assign blame to anything except Lee, his ministry or themselves. They probably blame all the current LC problems on us "lawless users of the internet". It's all very sad. The whole thing is one gigantic mess, there are bones and feathers everywhere.

[OBW]

Localism is an extremely divisive and superb religious system, which has a "biblical" garment, which comes at a time of decadence and maximum degradation of the Protestant Reformation and the Denominational Movement (recommend the book "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola in Annex ).

This was very early in the lengthy post.

I have come to be very suspect of this kind of talk. It is almost always part of the mantra of people who want to lure the naïve (like many of us once were) by creating a boogeyman — a strawman to beat up. I will admit that there was an undercurrent of change beginning in people. And it changed the whole Protestant landscape. It seems that this has been going on for centuries. A period of changes followed by a period of relative calm.

But every new and novel idea needs people to have a reason to change. So the declaration that what currently exists is seriously flawed.

We have seen through Lee's version. And Dong's version. But we believe that the underlying need for something else was correctly stated.

In effect we are still buying half of their lie.

I am not saying that everything is perfect. There was no "perfect" in the letters in Revelation (even though some like to declare Philadelphia as perfect) yet they were all churches. Thyatira was not the Whore of Babylon. And the others (excluding Philadelphia) were not her daughters. They were all churches.

The question is whether we have been conditioned to see the existing church through the muddy glasses of someone else, including people like Frank Viola. I see Frank as one of those guys that you listen to for a horrible war story that results in only the need for some minor tune-ups. Not the same as a Brian McLaren in "out-there-ness." But close at times.

And I read a lot of good Evangelical and other thinkers who opine that we are not entirely on mark. But none of them think it is as wrong as the likes of Lee or even Viola or McLaren. (And McLaren has finally proven himself to be a little too far off the mark himself to be of real value anymore.) Surely things could be better. But "decadence and maximum degradation"?

Give me a break.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

In effect we are still buying half of their lie.

I'm no longer looking for the "perfect" or "pure" recovered or re-created church. Any group that bases itself on the notion that everyone else is hopelessly corrupted and should effectively be shunned is starting off on the wrong foot.

Contrast that to Jesus' answer to the question: "Who is my neighbor?" Your neighbor may not be so pure, but bloody and beaten. Error upon error.

Hopefully our Brazilian friend is more open today to Christianity, impurity and all. I know that my views have changed over the past 5 years. I am more accepting of things the way they are. Like Paul said, I can be all things to all people (Catholic, EO, Protestant, etc etc) to by all means gain some. Not to gain them to my supposedly purified theology or purified group, but by my receiving them, that Christ would gain them more. And as I do to others (facilitate Christ being wrought in them), God will do to me. This is the promise from God, and I take it as holy law, not to be broken.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the case of DYL, it sounds like some pretty bizarre teachings have been introduced..

The corollary of my third point, that the leader gets elevated to quasi-mystical status, with oracular utterance (God's final prophet, etc), is that the scripture gets skewed almost beyond recognition. In extreme cases (Eastern Lightning ) scripture is dispensed with entirely.

I won't bother to drag out the LC cases; they've been covered on this forum in some detail. Just one thing: notice how the terminology sets it up: "Crystallization" is the culmination of all previous teachings; "Consummation" likewise supersedes everything that precedes it. So Lee the Bible expositor eventually became the Bible's de facto replacement. Where it was convenient (which was often) the Bible could be pointed to as the buttress and shield. Where it was not convenient (also often) the Bible was simply ignored, as if its words had never existed in the divine conversation. Instead we got warmed-over Chinese aphorisms from the oracle. Or something would be snatched out of 19th century Protestant Sunday-school lessons, and waved in the air as if it were suddenly the pathway to the recovery of truth.

[aron]

Seems to me that the first disciples had three problems, post-resurrection. First, if Jesus was king, why wasn't He sitting on a throne in Jerusalem? Why didn't things get restored to their proper order? The Romans were still very much in charge, etc.

Second, what of the law, and Moses' decrees? Note that much of the NT is spent covering this subject. So the atoning death, etc up to the outpouring of the Spirit becomes an analog to the old decrees. "The law of the Spirit of life has freed me from the law of sin and death" etc.

Third, what of the gentiles? Where do they fit into all this?

Now, I bring all this up as contrast to the kingdom-building schemes of Mssrs Lee, Dong et al (including Shouters, Lord Changshou sect, EL as well). Seems that they've an entirely different set of concerns. Their answer to questions 1 and 3 is simply the organization. It's all about building up the kingdom, here on earth. For question 2, laws come and go, rise up and vanish like smoke, according to the need of the moment. Again, it's all about building up the kingdom.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

The corollary of my third point, that the leader gets elevated to quasi-mystical status, with oracular utterance (God's final prophet, etc), is that the scripture gets skewed almost beyond recognition. In extreme cases (Eastern Lightning ) scripture is dispensed with entirely.

I am told that the most recent elders training (ITERO) was held in Brazil at the beginning of this month. It doesn’t take a genius to correlate Brazil with being the territory of DYL. What do you know, but apparently some innuendos against DYL were made. Something about him having converted meeting halls to coffee shops/bookstores. Whatever, I don’t care what he is doing, because none of us are following him. But somehow LC leaders view him as some significant threat.

Apparently it was claimed that the economy of Brazil isn’t doing that well, and that is the “Lord’s doing”, so that DYL’s coffee shops/bookstores can be shut down!?!? You really can’t make this stuff up. This is what LCers believe. Like I have stated before, those like DYL and Titus spawned from Lee. No, I don’t see it as a simple guilt by association. These brothers took Lee as their pattern, so they are the “extreme” side of Lee.

The website afaithfulwitness.org has a “repentance” from various coworkers about a situation that occurred when someone recently tried to receive DYL back into the LC. Prepare yourself for a good laugh: http://afaithfulwitness.org/warnings...2014-03-10.pdf

Personally, I don’t care what DYL is or isn’t doing, but until the "coworkers" can accept responsibility for these fellows like DYL that have been created as a result of Lee’s ministry, the so-called turmoils will keep reoccurring. When will leaders learn?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I am told that the most recent elders training (ITERO) was held in Brazil at the beginning of this month. It doesn’t take a genius to correlate Brazil with being the territory of DYL. What do you know, but apparently some innuendos against DYL were made. Something about him having converted meeting halls to coffee shops/bookstores. Whatever, I don’t care what he is doing, because none of us are following him. But somehow LC leaders view him as some significant threat.

Personally, I don’t care what DYL is or isn’t doing, but until the "coworkers" can accept responsibility for these fellows like DYL that have been created as a result of Lee’s ministry, the so-called turmoils will keep reoccurring. When will leaders learn?

Ones like DYL are perceived as a threat perhaps because he's encroaching on LSM's perceived market.
The leaders won't learn anything until they come to accept history. Local Churches are taking the same path as the Brethren.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

Ones like DYL are perceived as a threat perhaps because he's encroaching on LSM's perceived market.
The leaders won't learn anything until they come to accept history. Local Churches are taking the same path as the Brethren.

It's almost humorous that LC leaders would be so quick to attribute all the LC problems to people like TC or DYL. It's almost certainly an issue of them having a clutch on the same market as LSM. After all, the only people following those like DYL are those who have disassociated with LSM.

Aside from the past LC relationship, DYL followers are just another fringe movement like many other weird sects. They dissociated with the LSM sect to form another sect just as bad.

Originally Posted by aron

Seems to me that the first disciples had three problems, post-resurrection. First, if Jesus was king, why wasn't He sitting on a throne in Jerusalem? Why didn't things get restored to their proper order? The Romans were still very much in charge, etc.

Second, what of the law, and Moses' decrees? Note that much of the NT is spent covering this subject. So the atoning death, etc up to the outpouring of the Spirit becomes an analog to the old decrees. "The law of the Spirit of life has freed me from the law of sin and death" etc.

Third, what of the gentiles? Where do they fit into all this?

Now, I bring all this up as contrast to the kingdom-building schemes of Mssrs Lee, Dong et al (including Shouters, Lord Changshou sect, EL as well). Seems that they've an entirely different set of concerns. Their answer to questions 1 and 3 is simply the organization. It's all about building up the kingdom, here on earth. For question 2, laws come and go, rise up and vanish like smoke, according to the need of the moment. Again, it's all about building up the kingdom.

may sound a little bit off track, but, are you connected to a brother Gino based in Bogota, Colombia?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Tdzikenu

may sound a little bit off track, but, are you connected to a brother Gino based in Bogota, Colombia?

Iafrancesco? No, sorry.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's almost humorous that LC leaders would be so quick to attribute all the LC problems to people like TC or DYL. It's almost certainly an issue of them having a clutch on the same market as LSM. After all, the only people following those like DYL are those who have disassociated with LSM.

Aside from the past LC relationship, DYL followers are just another fringe movement like many other weird sects. They dissociated with the LSM sect to form another sect just as bad.

They need and require cult followers. That's their market.

Why is it that it seems that, humans are attracted to cults like flies to fecal matter?

Oh, by the way guys, Dong Yu Lan has died yesterday. Later I'll ask my parents if a "sucessor" has been chosen yet.