Is the LC a cult? (A comparison of JW & TLR)

[LifeGoesOn]

I have wondered just how cultish the The Lord’s Recovery truly is. Well, I just read a post (listed below) on another message board from an ex-JW about his membership in the JW cult and I am convinced that TLR is a cult.

But, I’ll let you, the reader, decide.

“OP I was a JW for 20 years of my life. Yes the people are very very sincere in their beliefs. However, the Governing Body that runs things in NY have 100% control over their sheep. What they say goes and if you disobey you are cast out and shunned. Please keep that very close in mind.

If you join and get baptized you are stuck. Either you do whatever the Governing Body says (through the meetings and publications), whether you personally agree with it or not, or you get kicked out aka. Disfellowshipped and you lose everything. If you get disfellowshipped you will no longer be able to talk to any of your former JW friends or family members (if you have such). The only way to get back in is to repent of your sins and start following all their rules again.

If you join you will be expected to go door to door preaching their beliefs.

It all sounds very very good at first....living forever in paradise on Earth with no sickness and nothing but happiness but as you get deeper into the cult they slowly turn you away from your "worldly" (any non witness) friends and even your family. It's very insidious how slowly and thoroughly this changes takes place. Typically you will study for at least a year before you'd even qualify to join (and get baptized). Every meeting you go to is brainwashing you into their beliefs, and before you know it you start to think like them and then you are hooked. All your friends are witnesses, you start distancing yourself from your family and your whole life is centered around the religion.

It can be very good for a while, all the new friends, and the excitement of the new belief system, and most of all having the answers to EVERY thing. But as time goes by the true insidiousness of the cult starts wearing on you. Why? Because through very subtle means at the meetings and in all the publications you are meant to never feel good enough, and to always be told you are worthless and to constantly improve and strive to be a better "Christian". They never come right out and say it like that but it's the underlining of every teaching "You are not worthy, you will never be good enough. GIVE MORE MORE MORE"

So what ends up happening? You feel guilty, tremendously guilty all the time. This isn't just my personal experience either. I belong to a few Ex Jehovah's Witness support groups and this same story is told over and over and over again. The guilt and the shame that you feel is overwhelming. Some have even committed suicide over it.

They will constantly expect more of your time and more of your resources. And let me tell you if you do a little digging on the Governing Body and it's financial practices you'll come to see it's very shady like all religion. They've also got their fair share of child molestation issues going on, especially in Australia where the Governing Body has been put on trial.

In short, do your homework very very carefully if you are serious about this. I am 100% sure the man you study with is a fantastic and sincere person. Nearly everyone I knew in my local Kingdom Hall and the hundreds of other friends I had from all over the world were amazing and sincere people. But sadly when I left I lost them all. But more to the point now I am free. I researched the religion and found so many discrepencies and I know now that I was in a cult. I was brought into it in the 1980's when I was very young and nieve and there was no internet to do research, and once you're in you are strictly forbidden to do any outside research on the Governing Body, you are only permitted to read and believe what they tell you to.

It has all the earmarks of a cult and believe me you will be much happier NOT being a JW.”

[leastofthese]

Hey LifeGoesOn,

Looks like you weren't the first one to make that connection... Wonder why?

When we say that the new covenant ministry is unique, we do not mean that it is the ministry of only one person. For example, it is slanderous to accuse me of saying that the unique ministry today is the ministry of Witness Lee. We do not say this, and we do not mean this. By the unique ministry, the new covenant ministry, we mean the ministry of the Spirit and of righteousness. Whoever ministers the Spirit and righteousness to others is one in the unique ministry, no matter who he may be. Peter, John, James, Paul, Timothy, Titus, Apollos—they all had the one ministry. The ministers are many, but the ministry is unique. As long as you minister the Spirit and righteousness to others, you are in this unique ministry.

A number of times I have been asked something like this: “Brother Lee, you say that the ministry is unique. This means that there is just one ministry. When you say that there is one ministry, that the ministry is unique, do you mean that your ministry is this unique ministry?” Some of those who question me like this may have the concept that I think of myself as someone like Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. I always answer this question by saying, “No, I definitely do not mean that my ministry is the unique ministry.”

Others may go on to ask if we accept all ministries. The answer is that we do not accept all different kinds of ministries. Then some may say, “On the one hand, you say that your ministry is not the unique ministry. On the other hand, you do not accept all ministries. What, then, do you practice regarding the ministry?” Because those who ask this question may be short of knowledge and may also be under the drugging effect of traditional concepts, it is not easy to explain the matter to them. I may say to myself, “I simply am what I am. But you have been drugged and cannot understand what the New Testament says concerning the ministry.” The ministry of the new covenant is unique; it is the ministry of the Spirit and of righteousness. Although we do not accept all different kinds of ministries, we do accept the ministry of anyone who truly ministers the Spirit and righteousness.

[LifeGoesOn]

That quote from WL reminds me of how how little I enjoyed “The Morning Watch”.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Hey LifeGoesOn,

Looks like you weren't the first one to make that connection... Wonder why?

When we say that the new covenant ministry is unique, we do not mean that it is the ministry of only one person. For example, it is slanderous to accuse me of saying that the unique ministry today is the ministry of Witness Lee. We do not say this, and we do not mean this. By the unique ministry, the new covenant ministry, we mean the ministry of the Spirit and of righteousness. Whoever ministers the Spirit and righteousness to others is one in the unique ministry, no matter who he may be. Peter, John, James, Paul, Timothy, Titus, Apollos—they all had the one ministry. The ministers are many, but the ministry is unique. As long as you minister the Spirit and righteousness to others, you are in this unique ministry...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I have wondered just how cultish the The Lord’s Recovery truly is. Well, I just read a post (listed below) on another message board from an ex-JW about his membership in the JW cult and I am convinced that TLR is a cult.

But, I’ll let you, the reader, decide.

I didn't decide. It was decided for me, in my face. So there's no doubt : Lee's local church is a cult.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by awareness

I didn't decide. It was decided for me, in my face. So there's no doubt : Lee's local church is a cult.

I had no idea that TLR was/is a cult when I left. All that I knew initially was it was spiritually dead and the Holy Spirit made it VERY CLEAR that my time there was up. So, I obeyed and left.

You know, it’s funny, because I didn’t find out just how much of a cult TLR is truly is until I found you guys on this message board. I had the impression while I was a member of TLR that surely the whole world was aware of the LC, but just not spiritually enlightened enough to join our elite club. After getting out, I’ve met a bunch of other believers and about 99% of them have never heard of TLR or WL for that matter.

I remember going to a weekend conference as a Young Person ® and going for walk with some other church kids who were taking hospitality at the same house as my family. A car pulled up to us and asked what we were up to. We told them that we were there for a church conference. We were then asked what church group we were a part of and one of the kids said, “We’re a cult. I’ll just leave it at that.” I remember thinking that was funny and odd at the same time. Decades later that statement would be proven to be correct.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I had the impression while I was a member of TLR that surely the whole world was aware of the LC, but just not spiritually enlightened enough to join our elite club. After getting out, I’ve met a bunch of other believers and about 99% of them have never heard of TLR or WL for that matter.

Very interesting that this was your impression as a young person. Is this perception prevalent among today's LC "church kids"?

I agree that 99% of believers haven't heard of WL or his church. Maybe that is why Lee called us poor poor degraded Christianity.

Witness Lee claimed to "stand on the shoulders of great Christian Leaders" and that he was the only one with the special sauce. Yet his ministry lacks fruit, is plagued with embarrassments, and grows even more insignificant each year.

Lee>Christ as the recipe produces what you see today in the LSM

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Very interesting that this was your impression as a young person. Is this perception prevalent among today's LC "church kids"?

I agree that 99% of believers haven't heard of WL or his church. Maybe that is why Lee called us poor poor degraded Christianity.

Witness Lee claimed to "stand on the shoulders of great Christian Leaders" and that he was the only one with the special sauce. Yet his ministry lacks fruit, is plagued with embarrassments, and grows even more insignificant each year.

Lee>Christ as the recipe produces what you see today in the LSM

This was my impression as well. After I left the LC, it shocked me to realize that nearly 100% of believers had never heard of Witness Lee, and that his influence is diminishing with each passing day. The delusion was on full display here when Evangelical told us that the basis for Witness Lee's status as the "minister of the age" was his "popularity."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I had no idea that TLR was/is a cult when I left. All that I knew initially was it was spiritually dead and the Holy Spirit made it VERY CLEAR that my time there was up. So, I obeyed and left.

I can't tell you how much this blows my mind. I left behind the Southern Baptist church because they were spiritually dead. But not the TLR, it was alive and vibrant.

I'm in touch with some that are still in the TLR, and they tell me the same ; that the TLR has become dead ; that the once youthful exuberance is gone, so I've heard from those that were in there back when I was there, that knew of it, in the days of it's youthful beginnings.

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

You know, it’s funny, because I didn’t find out just how much of a cult TLR is truly is until I found you guys on this message board.

As I stated, it was forced upon me, by the lead elder. But it does become more obvious after leaving, when we step back and take a look at it from the outside. Unless it's made obvious by a zealot leader, like happened to me, it's hard to see from the whirlwind of business inside.

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I had the impression while I was a member of TLR that surely the whole world was aware of the LC . . .

After leaving I found that Watchman Nee was widely known, in other Christian circles, but not Witness Lee, nor the local church. Like you said, "99% of them have never heard of TLR or WL for that matter."

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

I remember going to a weekend conference as a Young Person ® and going for walk with some other church kids who were taking hospitality at the same house as my family. A car pulled up to us and asked what we were up to. We told them that we were there for a church conference. We were then asked what church group we were a part of and one of the kids said, “We’re a cult. I’ll just leave it at that.” I remember thinking that was funny and odd at the same time. Decades later that statement would be proven to be correct.

Sorry brother, that it took so long. But at least you eventually discovered it. Thank God.

Thanks for sharing brother LifeGoesOn. Blessings.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Very interesting that this was your impression as a young person. Is this perception prevalent among today's LC "church kids"?

I agree that 99% of believers haven't heard of WL or his church. Maybe that is why Lee called us poor poor degraded Christianity.

Witness Lee claimed to "stand on the shoulders of great Christian Leaders" and that he was the only one with the special sauce. Yet his ministry lacks fruit, is plagued with embarrassments, and grows even more insignificant each year.

Lee>Christ as the recipe produces what you see today in the LSM

What is your sample size? For example, 99% of 10 people you know personally is not significant. Drake and I have presented more statistically meaningful figures based upon distributions and sales. If we assume that every person who receives a tract or bible knows it is from Witness Lee then the figure would be less than 99%.

Even if it is 1%. 1% of 2.2 billion people (number of Christians in the world in 2010) is 22 million people.

This number surpasses any single denomination in the USA except the Catholic and baptist so it is a significant number.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What is your sample size? For example, 99% of 10 people you know personally is not significant. Drake and I have presented more statistically meaningful figures based upon distributions and sales. If we assume that every person who receives a tract or bible knows it is from Witness Lee then the figure would be less than 99%.

Even if it is 1%. 1% of 2.2 billion people (number of Christians in the world in 2010) is 22 million people.

This number surpasses any single denomination in the USA except the Catholic and baptist so it is a significant number.

Oh Evangelical... "what's your sample size"! Ha - love it! I know you're trolling, but I'll humor you.

Many times people use "99%", not literally, but rather to indicate a small portion. I don't think anyone was attempting to provide statistically meaningful numbers. That was clearly not the intent. If you'd like to do so, please start a thread and I'll double check your numbers and we can test how statistically valid your conclusion is.

Also, by your logic Rick Warren would also surpass any single denomination in the US? I could take a guess about your thoughts on Rick

Your comment about tracts and bibles was a sad peek into your world. Do you believe that people should assume all LSM tracts and bibles are from Witness Lee?

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Very interesting that this was your impression as a young person. Is this perception prevalent among today's LC "church kids"?

I agree that 99% of believers haven't heard of WL or his church. Maybe that is why Lee called us poor poor degraded Christianity.

Witness Lee claimed to "stand on the shoulders of great Christian Leaders" and that he was the only one with the special sauce. Yet his ministry lacks fruit, is plagued with embarrassments, and grows even more insignificant each year.

Lee>Christ as the recipe produces what you see today in the LSM

There were not a lot of young people left in the locality I was part of when I left. Once many of the church kids hit their teens the numbers in the meetings were noticeably reduced.

I cannot say with 100% certainty that all the young people believe the lie that being a part of the LC made them the creme de la creme of the believing world, but I feel that there is quite a good chance of this being the case. I say this based on the fact that anti-“poor degraded Christianity” was a staple of the “prophesying” just about every Sunday. It’s funny, but I do not think that most of us realized just how deep the indoctrination ran until later in life, after we left.

When my family left the LC a few years ago our locality had very few members between the ages of 16-40. I was actually in a very serious meeting several years ago that addressed the problem of the dwindling amount of young people in the LC. If I recall correctly, many of the members are between 50-70 years old.

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by awareness

After leaving I found that Watchman Nee was widely known, in other Christian circles, but not Witness Lee, nor the local church. Like you said, "99% of them have never heard of TLR or WL for that matter."


Sorry brother, that it took so long. But at least you eventually discovered it. Thank God.

Thanks for sharing brother LifeGoesOn. Blessings.

God bless you too bro. I’m so grateful that He brought us out by one means or another. I have run into several believers who know of and respect Watchman Nee, but these same ones have not heard of WL or TLR.

Interestingly, I have met several other believers who were also involved in cults. When I described the LC they recognized it as being a cult right away.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by LifeGoesOn

God bless you too bro. I’m so grateful that He brought us out by one means or another. I have run into several believers who know of and respect Watchman Nee, but these same ones have not heard of WL or TLR.

Interestingly, I have met several other believers who were also involved in cults. When I described the LC they recognized it as being a cult right away.

I made close friends with a Church of Christ (Campbellites) here in Kentucky. He had read Nee, but knew nothing about Lee.

So since Lee is on the web I sent him to Lee's messages on the internet. Now the Church of Christ is considered a cult by Christian cult hunters, but it took him no time to spot that Lee's group is a cult. He also thought that one church one city was an extra-Biblical doctrine. He said, if it was so important it would have been spelled out by Paul, but it wasn't.

And by the way, Christian cults are not rare. We have here, out in the countryside, independent Baptist churches that are little cults. I have extended family members that have been in them. All it takes is a narcissistic preacher, with exceptional Bible knowledge, to make one. I'd tell you to watch out brother, but with your experience with the LC, you'll prolly not have any trouble spotting them.

I had lots of fun with the Church of Christ cult, before they gave me the boot. Now I'm having fun with the JW cult. They're everywhere, I tell ya, everywhere ; cults. Seems that human primate's can't resist them. Must be the 98% DNA match we have with the Great Apes ... I don't know ... maybe it's something else. Maybe we have a twisted need for a king Saul to lead us ... and aren't happy with God being our king. Maybe we're just ignorant. I know I was.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

What is your sample size? For example, 99% of 10 people you know personally is not significant. Drake and I have presented more statistically meaningful figures based upon distributions and sales. If we assume that every person who receives a tract or bible knows it is from Witness Lee then the figure would be less than 99%.

Even if it is 1%. 1% of 2.2 billion people (number of Christians in the world in 2010) is 22 million people.

This number surpasses any single denomination in the USA except the Catholic and baptist so it is a significant number.

Evangelical, are you serious with this?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, are you serious with this?

I was but least explained they were not being literal which I think is strange given that LifeGoesOn who first gave the 99% figure seemed to be giving a statistical figure based on the "bunch of people they met" and this figure seemed to be affirmed as a fact by 2 or 3 other people.

You rounded up this figure to 100% (probably for additional effect) - "it shocked me to realize that nearly 100% of believers". You seemed to be being factual as well, based on your own experience.


LifeGoesOn said

"After getting out, I’ve met a bunch of other believers and about 99% of them have never heard of TLR or WL for that matter."

A "bunch" of people could be anything but normally less than 10 - a handful. So their sample size is small. This figure was then affirmed by 3 other people as if it was a fact, and one person has stated they were using it as an expression rather than literally.

I think how many people know about Witness Lee or any other person is not relevant. The argument is a silly one because according to facts on the internet (Google), more people know about Coca cola than Jesus Christ. Apparently 94% of the world recognize the name Coca-Cola but only 54% of the world recognize the cross that represents Christianity. So Coca cola is more popular than Jesus.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You rounded up this figure to 100% (probably for additional effect) - "it shocked me to realize that nearly 100% of believers". You seemed to be being factual as well, based on your own experience.

My statement is perfectly true.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

My statement is perfectly true.

ha ha the statement that 99% is close to 100% is true. But I don't think the number 99% is true. I've done my own calculations and believe it to be in the order of 90%. Closer to 90% than 100% and that's being conservative. Now 1 out of 10 people may not seem like much but statistically it is and it's a matter of perspective. I'm talking about 1 out of 10 people across the whole of America, that includes Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, not 1 out of 10 Christians. We're talking 32 million people across America and more than 190 countries in the world have a population less than that (see how perspective can change things).

My calculations are more reliable than considering only the number of people we know personally, as it is based on the number of books and bibles distributed over a 10 year period (by Bibles for America), the number of local church people engaged in evangelism, and the online presence of the publisher. Importantly we need to consider exponentiation - the ongoing impact of bibles and books that have been distributed in previous years. How many people have seen or know of the bibles distributed 10 years ago? I still have mine. 1 person tells 2 other people, and so on. The books and bibles get put on shelves, used in bible studies, or passed onto to family and friends. For every book or bible or word of mouth story we can expect impact to at least 1 other person (spouse, parent, children , friends etc).

[LifeGoesOn]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, are you serious with this?

Bro,

Here, try some of this.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

ha ha the statement that 99% is close to 100% is true. But I don't think the number 99% is true. I've done my own calculations and believe it to be in the order of 90%. Closer to 90% than 100% and that's being conservative. Now 1 out of 10 people may not seem like much but statistically it is and it's a matter of perspective. I'm talking about 1 out of 10 people across the whole of America, that includes Jews, Atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Pagans, not 1 out of 10 Christians. We're talking 32 million people across America and more than 190 countries in the world have a population less than that (see how perspective can change things).

My calculations are more reliable than considering only the number of people we know personally, as it is based on the number of books and bibles distributed over a 10 year period (by Bibles for America), the number of local church people engaged in evangelism, and the online presence of the publisher. Importantly we need to consider exponentiation - the ongoing impact of bibles and books that have been distributed in previous years. How many people have seen or know of the bibles distributed 10 years ago? I still have mine. 1 person tells 2 other people, and so on. The books and bibles get put on shelves, used in bible studies, or passed onto to family and friends. For every book or bible or word of mouth story we can expect impact to at least 1 other person (spouse, parent, children , friends etc).

Evangelical, you are completely delusional if you think that 32 million people in the USA know who Witness Lee is.

[Evangelical]

Started another thread.