How to rescue those still in LCs in Korea?

[Gubei]

Hi brothers and sisters,

I'm a mid-aged Korean brother who used to post here about 10 years ago (mostly criticizing LC practices). I started my LC life in Seoul about 30 years ago when I was a college student, and was one of leading young brothers among college students. I kept serving my Lord with secular job, but I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago. I've just enjoyed reading the Bible, praying etc alone only with my family since then. (Quite oddly there have been almost no concerned brothers who tried to recover me. )

Recently, several old acquaintances in the LCs who were in the position of leadership abruptly began to contact me for various reasons, and I found the situation of the LCs in Korea have gone from bad to worse, with serious leadership chaos and without the Lord's blessing, proven by the fact that the # of meeting attendants keep decreasing.

Currently, I'm curious whether there is any good way to rescue some brothers and sisters who I guess by now feel bad for the LCs unreasonable and unbiblical practice. Of course I know if I try in a naive way then I will end up with no fruits and only with all the bad labeling like rebellion etc.

[Indiana]

Hi Gubei, could you possibly begin to visit a couple that you think is not meeting any longer and try to build up relationship with them and have prayer and fellowship together? More and more understanding might come forth. I just wonder about this to begin with.

It seems you could be an edifying factor to them and also to others. Maybe staying in contact here would also be good.

[least]

I agree with what Indiana said for Gubei's current situation.

Gubei, what was the weird incident you mentioned?

"I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago." by Gubei.

God bless,
from least in this forum.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Hi Gubei, could you possibly begin to visit a couple that you think is not meeting any longer and try to build up relationship with them and have prayer and fellowship together? More and more understanding might come forth. I just wonder about this to begin with.

It seems you could be an edifying factor to them and also to others. Maybe staying in contact here would also be good.

Thanks, Indiana. will do as you suggested!

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by least

I agree with what Indiana said for Gubei's current situation.

Gubei, what was the weird incident you mentioned?

"I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago." by Gubei.

God bless,
from least in this forum.

Thanks, least.

I PMed you on the weird incident.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I'm a mid-aged Korean brother who used to post here about 10 years ago.. I started my LC life in Seoul about 30 years ago when I was a college student, and was one of leading young brothers among college students. I kept serving my Lord with secular job, but I'd witnessed a lot of negative things happening in the LCs in Korea, and finally stopped my LC life due to a very weird incident that I think was from my Lord about 6 years ago. I've just enjoyed reading the Bible, praying only with my family since then.

Recently.. I found the situation of the LCs in Korea have gone from bad to worse, with serious leadership chaos and without the Lord's blessing, proven by the fact that the # of meeting attendants keep decreasing.. is any good way to rescue some brothers and sisters who I guess by now feel bad for the LCs unreasonable and unbiblical practice..

My advice would be: first, you can only minister what you have. They already know the condition of the LC; what are you going to present them as an alternative? One of the worst things the LC leadership did was quench the seeking spirit. The “church life” and the “ministry” were supposedly one-stop shopping; or “all-inclusive”.

Jesus taught, “Seek and ye shall find”; that has never been more important than today. LC leaders convinced the saints, “There is nothing out there” for them. So even if the current status is poor, they are kept in immobility, and passivity. You need to present them with a fresh breeze of the Spirit of God.

So if you're desperately seeking Him with your whole heart/soul/strength, then you have his promise that the finding will follow. The LC song, “We have ended our search” was a dead-end. Literally.

O home in the church,
Where we’ve ended our search
With the brothers rejoicing all day;
Where Christ is our life,
And we’re through with all strife,
Now we’re home, hallelujah, to stay!

Home, home in the church;
Yes, it’s here that we’ve ended our search;
And through all our days
We will shout to His praise,
“Hallelujah for Christ and the church!”

The Christian life is a seeking life. Don’t quit till it’s over.

Second, and related, you have a specific role to play in God’s kingdom. You alone are ‘you’. There is no other. In God’s wisdom, you have a job to do. Minister to others, LC and not, in the sphere of that specific job. “Do business until I come”; only you can do the ‘business’ in your hands.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

My advice would be: first, you can only minister what you have. They already know the condition of the LC; what are you going to present them as an alternative? One of the worst things the LC leadership did was quench the seeking spirit. The “church life” and the “ministry” were supposedly one-stop shopping; or “all-inclusive”.

Jesus taught, “Seek and ye shall find”; that has never been more important than today. LC leaders convinced the saints, “There is nothing out there” for them. So even if the current status is poor, they are kept in immobility, and passivity. You need to present them with a fresh breeze of the Spirit of God.

So if you're desperately seeking Him with your whole heart/soul/strength, then you have his promise that the finding will follow. The LC song, “We have ended our search” was a dead-end. Literally.

The Christian life is a seeking life. Don’t quit till it’s over.

Second, and related, you have a specific role to play in God’s kingdom. You alone are ‘you’. There is no other. In God’s wisdom, you have a job to do. Minister to others, LC and not, in the sphere of that specific job. “Do business until I come”; only you can do the ‘business’ in your hands.

Thanks, Aron

I totally agree with you. Me myself has been enjoying our Lord apart from the LC life, which is naturally possible for my brothers and sisters still in the LC but I'm afraid they would not venture to go far enough away from the LC.

My "strategy" to rescue some, which I am not sure is my new burden from the Lord, is translating good English materials into Korean for free distribution to them.

Can you pop up any good stuff for me to translate? It's impossible to translate this forum from A to Z. So, I need brief but powerful ones.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

My "strategy" to rescue some, which I am not sure is my new burden from the Lord, is translating good English materials into Korean for free distribution to them.

Can you pop up any good stuff for me to translate? It's impossible to translate this forum from A to Z. So, I need brief but powerful ones.

I would start with the testimony of Witness Lee's closest co-worker, who translated his hymnal into English. His name is John Ingalls and his writing is under the "history" section on this forum of writings of former leading ones.

It is called "Speaking the Truth In Love". I would translate the whole thing, and then excerpt what is relevant. If you see the behaviour of Witness Lee and his family it's not much different than from David Yonggi Cho in Korea. Nepotism, cover-up, money-laundering, ejection of those who tried to expose unrighteousness.

Also "History of the Local Church" by Don Rutledge. He was one of the early American converts, who saw DayStar first-hand, what it caused. He corroborates with Ingalls about what happened.

And another brother named Steve Isitt has done a lot of research on the history of the group. See attached links.

Originally Posted by Indiana

Here you are DistantStar.

Watchman Nee
http://www.lordsrecovery.us/Timeline...hmanNeeEra.pdf

Witness Lee
http://www.lordsrecovery.us/Timeline...ssLeeEraUS.pdf

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

I would start with the testimony of Witness Lee's closest co-worker, who translated his hymnal into English. His name is John Ingalls and his writing is under the "history" section on this forum of writings of former leading ones.

It is called "Speaking the Truth In Love". I would translate the whole thing, and then excerpt what is relevant. If you see the behaviour of Witness Lee and his family it's not much different than from David Yonggi Cho in Korea. Nepotism, cover-up, money-laundering, ejection of those who tried to expose unrighteousness.

Also "History of the Local Church" by Don Rutledge. He was one of the early American converts, who saw DayStar first-hand, what it caused. He corroborates with Ingalls about what happened.

And another brother named Steve Isitt has done a lot of research on the history of the group. See attached links.

Thanks a lot, Aron!

BTW you must be very good at what's happening in my country. Interestingly, I'm an ex-member of the pentecostal church by David Yonggi Cho, that's when I was an elementary schooler though. I remember David Yonggi Cho's early ministry was quite sound but as his church got bigger, problems crept in, especially his son's too secular engagement in a business and his marriage to a famous actress were shocking enough to me at that time.

[Gubei]

A brief history of the LCs in Korea and how it still affects the church life there

I’m not sure how this brief introduction of the history of the LCs in South Korea will help you understand the entanglements of the LCs’ leadership chaos there, but at least you (naturally I assume most of posters here are not Korean and do not know the thus far details) can have a glimpse of what’s going on there. Of course, I'm not omniscient, but the following is from very reliable sources.

1. The grounding work was not so sound (from the viewpoint of the LCers)

Mr. Kwon (also called Mr. Wang) was a Korean, but he joined Chinese Army during Japanese Ruling Period (c. 1940s~50s). He ended up in Taiwan and found the LC led by Witness Lee. After spending some period of time there, he came back to South Korea without fellowship with Witness Lee. He started his own meeting at Daejeon, a mid sized city located in the center of South Korea. Attendees were getting on the rise, and he gained Mr. Y, later to be the leader of LCs in Korea. Obviously Mr. Kwon used Witness Lee’s messages but did not reveal the fact he was not the author but those were from Witness Lee.

2. Globalization and LSM’s ministry making inroads into South Korea.

The more South Korea was open to the international society, especially the US, the more contacts with LSM-linked LCs in the US conducted by some Korean brothers. But still Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang) was alive and very reluctant to see saints read LSM materials. I’ve heard some leading brothers had to read the materials privately, unnoticed not to be reprimanded by Mr. Kwon.

3. Leadership power struggle

Mr. Kwon passed away.
Mr. S, a retired military officer, was enthusiastic in contacting LSM and claimed the LCs in South Korean would have to openly communicate with LSM. Mr. Y –followers and Mr. S-followers in rivalry for some time period, ended up both camps deciding to follow LSM’s direction. But under the surface, there have been rivalry going on between coworkers and leading brothers, while some left the LCs openly criticizing Witness Lee for some reason.

4. Andrew Yu’s audacious, but seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders

Very long time, Andrew Yu had visited South Korea and gave a lot of messages with practical leading. He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire. But that was a kind of hasty action without proper verification period. Andrew Yu seems to had just accepted those candidates offered by Mr. S and Mr. Y. The saints felt there are spiritual imbalance among the appointees, and some mature church leaders were not appointed, and a possible explanation is that they are not so strongly attached with Mr. S or Y.

5. The retired coworkers came back with more chaos

After 3 years or so, the retired 11 or so coworkers came back to leadership position saying that they want to contribute more. Due to seniority culture, newly appointed ones would not have rejected this coming back. I’ve heard there are obvious “hierarchy” now among leading brothers.

6. Ever-decreasing church attendees

Since then, attendees are decreasing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Gubei

Andrew Yu’s audacious, but seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders

Very long time, Andrew Yu had visited South Korea and gave a lot of messages with practical leading. He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire. But that was a kind of hasty action without proper verification period. Andrew Yu seems to had just accepted those candidates offered by Mr. S and Mr. Y. The saints felt there are spiritual imbalance among the appointees, and some mature church leaders were not appointed, and a possible explanation is that they are not so strongly attached with Mr. S or Y.

This is absolutely incredible! How audacious! Of course Andrew Yu's appointment of elders in Seoul was not biblical! "Spiritual imbalance" indeed, more like a gross violation of the truth in order to bring that church under bondage and subjection to false human authority. LSM's works of the flesh are now on full display. This same kind of lust for power and control damaged all the Midwest LC's a decade ago.

Look at the disruption it has caused in the church. What authority from above does Yu possess? Is not the church in Seoul the church of God? Is it not the church of the saints? Since when has it become the church of some foreign ministry? Is Andrew Yu the apostle who preached the gospel and established that church? Of course not. Yu behaved as the Judaizers of old. I heard he has cancer, so perhaps the Lord was not pleased with his actions.

Did not one hundred years ago Watchman Nee proclaim independence from foreign denominations? Did he not assert that the church and her administration is local? What Andrew Yu has done is what started the "Recovery" in China in the first place. Nee rejected all foreign church authorities, yet Seoul has now accepted them? The church in Seoul needs a visit from Watchman Nee today! LSM's lust for power has blinded them from violating their own original mission statement -- their very reason for existence!

[least]

Ohio is correct.
Andrew Yu who?
His "seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders"
"He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire."

Jesus did not appoint anyone on condition that someone else has to retire.
Neither did the Holy Spirit.

Is anything Andrew Yu ever biblical?
LSM defenders please inform.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is absolutely incredible! How audacious! Of course Andrew Yu's appointment of elders in Seoul was not biblical! "Spiritual imbalance" indeed, more like a gross violation of the truth in order to bring that church under bondage and subjection to false human authority. LSM's works of the flesh are now on full display. This same kind of lust for power and control damaged all the Midwest LC's a decade ago.

Look at the disruption it has caused in the church. What authority from above does Yu possess? Is not the church in Seoul the church of God? Is it not the church of the saints? Since when has it become the church of some foreign ministry? Is Andrew Yu the apostle who preached the gospel and established that church? Of course not. Yu behaved as the Judaizers of old. I heard he has cancer, so perhaps the Lord was not pleased with his actions.

Did not one hundred years ago Watchman Nee proclaim independence from foreign denominations? Did he not assert that the church and her administration is local? What Andrew Yu has done is what started the "Recovery" in China in the first place. Nee rejected all foreign church authorities, yet Seoul has now accepted them? The church in Seoul needs a visit from Watchman Nee today! LSM's lust for power has blinded them from violating their own original mission statement -- their very reason for existence!

If Andrew Yu really had wanted to behave like early church era "apostles", he would have exerted all the efforts to contact the "saints" in Seoul and verified who are spiritually mature to the point that he could appoint them as elders.

However, his contact points in Seoul only include a few coworkers with biased opinions and inclination for power, meaning they are "culprits" for this disaster.

Even if Andrew Yu really had contacted the "saints" in Seoul, that would have been a huge challenge in reality because of language barrier.

Anyway, this is quite interesting point to see how Andrew Yu dealt with leadership issue in South Korea. He asked for the then vested coworkers to retire, but he accepted their candidates, which naturally caused those soon-to-retire coworkers to offer the candidates who were "spiritually" stringed to them, leading to a kind of "regency system".

I've heard Andrew Yu cannot visit Seoul any longer due to his physical illness, it is said he has some vocal problem now. Instead, Ron Kangus used to visit Seoul, but I've heard the coworkers in the US don't want to come to Korea for some reason.

The vested coworkers' choice now is to invite Taiwanese brothers (Br. Wu and Br Lim).

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by least

Ohio is correct.
Andrew Yu who?
His "seeming not so biblical appointment of coworkers and elders"
"He finally appointed nationwide coworkers and elders in the Church in Seoul, most important city in South korea, on condition that the existing 11 or so co-workers (including Mr. S and Mr. Y) have to retire."

Jesus did not appoint anyone on condition that someone else has to retire.
Neither did the Holy Spirit.

Is anything Andrew Yu ever biblical?
LSM defenders please inform.

Thanks least. I believe this is high time for our Lord to something for Korean saints in the LCs. From my point of view, they have been so exploited very long time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Gubei

If Andrew Yu really had wanted to behave like early church era "apostles", he would have exerted all the efforts to contact the "saints" in Seoul and verified who are spiritually mature to the point that he could appoint them as elders.

However, his contact points in Seoul only include a few coworkers with biased opinions and inclination for power, meaning they are "culprits" for this disaster.

Even if Andrew Yu really had contacted the "saints" in Seoul, that would have been a huge challenge in reality because of language barrier.

Anyway, this is quite interesting point to see how Andrew Yu dealt with leadership issue in South Korea. He asked for the then vested coworkers to retire, but he accepted their candidates, which naturally caused those soon-to-retire coworkers to offer the candidates who were "spiritually" stringed to them, leading to a kind of "regency system".

I've heard Andrew Yu cannot visit Seoul any longer due to his physical illness, it is said he has some vocal problem now. Instead, Ron Kangus used to visit Seoul, but I've heard the coworkers in the US don't want to come to Korea for some reason.

The vested coworkers' choice now is to invite Taiwanese brothers (Br. Wu and Br Lim).

There is no "right way" or Biblical way for any one like AY or RK from LSM, a USA book publisher, to properly appoint elders in Seoul, SoKo. There is no Biblical support for this.

The Bible presents many qualifications for church elders. Paul's books to Timothy and Titus mention some. Both the Spirit (Acts 20.28; I Cor 12.28) of God (through prayer and fellowship) and the mature saints (Acts 16.2) should approve of new elders. It is far better for the church to have new elders recommended by existing elders.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There is no "right way" or Biblical way for any one like AY or RK from LSM, a USA book publisher, to properly appoint elders in Seoul, SoKo. There is no Biblical support for this.

The Bible presents many qualifications for church elders. Paul's books to Timothy and Titus mention some. Both the Spirit (Acts 20.28; I Cor 12.28) of God (through prayer and fellowship) and the mature saints (Acts 16.2) should approve of new elders. It is far better for the church to have new elders recommended by existing elders.

I agree with you, Ohio.

I was writing how it was ridiculously developed in appointing coworkers and elders in Seoul even from the viewpoint of those who accept "only apostle appointing elders principle"

Obviously, Andrew Yu had not done a lot of "foundational work" in South Korea like the early church era apostles did in the middle east and Asia Minor, but he "nominated" some brothers into leadership position without proper verification process at his own based on long-term monitoring/discussion procedures, of course without any so called reference check from "lay persons" in South Korea.

I labelled this as "disaster" in my previous post in this thread, but second thought gives me the idea this could be a blessing in disguise. The saints in South Korea would be quite suspicious that there is something wrong.

[least]

Came Andrew Yu.
Came Ron Kangas.
Came US workers.
Came Wu.
Came Lin.
Came Taiwanese workers.

Jesus said: Behold, I stand at the door, and knock.
If any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Came LSM Andrew Yu.
Came LSM Ron Kangas.
Came US LSM bb.
Came Wu.
Came Lin.
Came China Taiwan Book Room bb.

Jesus said: Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

US bb appoint Korean workers, elders.
Taiwan bb appoint Korean workers, elders.

Jesus will grant to him that overcometh to sit with him in his throne, even as he also overcame, and set down with his Father in his throne.

Hear not LSM, Hear not TBR.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

-
* bb - blended brothers
* LSM - Living Stream Ministry
* TBR - Taiwan Book Room

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I believe this is high time for our Lord to something for Korean saints in the LCs. From my point of view, they have been so exploited very long time.

This story of Andrew Yu manipulating Korean elders hadn't been posted here, so it's "news" in a sense, but it also matches behaviour from LSM to act in their own self-interest; it's predictable, a "re-run", as one poster recently put it. Just as the story helps clarify the pattern of LSM's handling its constituent assemblies, so also the American testimonies can help those in Asia also understand the forces at work. The stories of Steve Isitt, John Ingalls and Don Rutledge will open their eyes. And I noted David Yonggi Cho earlier, as resemblances between Cho and Lee are neither coincidental nor superficial: it's important to see that this so-called ministry and its captive flock aren't an alternative to "deformed and degraded Christianity" but rather its exemplars. Nepotism, cronyism, money-laundering, corruption, scandal, cover-up - it's all there, in multiple corroborating accounts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Gubei

I agree with you, Ohio.

I was writing how it was ridiculously developed in appointing coworkers and elders in Seoul even from the viewpoint of those who accept "only apostle appointing elders principle"

Even for those who naively believe that only "apostles" can appoint elders around the globe, we must examine the qualifications of an apostle, and the credentials of Andrew Yu. What qualifies AY as apostle over Seoul, Korea? Did he establish that church? Does he even speak Korean? Does he have any fruit there? Or is he just one of the Blended Super-Apostles sent from headquarters which Paul battled during his ministry, and exposes in II Cor chapters 11-12, yet has no signs (12.12) of an apostle?

In Galatians 2, Paul rejected the "authority" of the fake apostles sent "from James." Paul even rebuked the apostle Peter for acting contrary to the truth, unknowingly bringing the Antioch believers under subjection to the decrees of the leaders in Jerusalem. It was not just circumcision and kosher regulations that Paul objected to, it was everything emanating from the old system in Jerusalem. He fought the good fight of the faith that the Gentile churches would never be brought under the bondage of a man-made church headquarters.

Every decision LSM has made in the last 30 years has had their own selfish interests in view. Thousands of testimonies confirm this. They are nothing more than a business, peddling the word of God for profit. They appoint elders and workers which further their business agenda. They do not make decisions with the actual shepherding care of the saints in view, nor the anointed direction of the Head of the body.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Even for those who naively believe that only "apostles" can appoint elders around the globe, we must examine the qualifications of an apostle, and the credentials of Andrew Yu. What qualifies AY as apostle over Seoul, Korea? Did he establish that church? Does he even speak Korean? Does he have any fruit there? Or is he just one of the Blended Super-Apostles sent from headquarters which Paul battled during his ministry, and exposes in II Cor chapters 11-12, yet has no signs (12.12) of an apostle?

In Galatians 2, Paul rejected the "authority" of the fake apostles sent "from James." Paul even rebuked the apostle Peter for acting contrary to the truth, unknowingly bringing the Antioch believers under subjection to the decrees of the leaders in Jerusalem. It was not just circumcision and kosher regulations that Paul objected to, it was everything emanating from the old system in Jerusalem. He fought the good fight of the faith that the Gentile churches would never be brought under the bondage of a man-made church headquarters.

Every decision LSM has made in the last 30 years has had their own selfish interests in view. Thousands of testimonies confirm this. They are nothing more than a business, peddling the word of God for profit. They appoint elders and workers which further their business agenda. They do not make decisions with the actual shepherding care of the saints in view, nor the anointed direction of the Head of the body.

Ohio, You are correct. I don’t believe AY is qualified to be an apostle to South Korea. By no means is he related with any foundational work in this country.

He might think that even though he did not establish the church in Seoul, he had the qualification to appoint elders in Seoul on ground that he is the minister of this age, which position he might regard as having been relayed to him from Witness Lee.

The case of South Korea gives us a very meaningful insights surrounding “only apostles can appoint elders principle”. At first sight, this principle sounded very convincing and plausible to me 30 years ago, but as time went by, I realized that in reality this principle cannot be applied as intended, because in order to strictly abide by this principle we first have to trace back to the qualification of anyone’s apostleship which usually leads us to nowhere. In case of Seoul, who was “the” apostle? Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang)?, Mr. Y? Mr. S? WL? AY? RK?

In my business office, one senior used to ask his juniors jokingly “what is a leader?”. There were a lot of answers from the juniors like a guy with vision for business prosperity, a guy who knows well how to operate, a guy who has a charisma etc… he just listened to those, and finally gave us his answer. “A leader is the guy who has his followers”. An analogy is possible with apostleship. Apostleship needs those who accept it.

Then, why was it possible for AY to have appointed elders in Seoul? In fact, even WL didn’t dare to do that when he was alive.
An possible explanation I can conjecture, and I think this is most likely according to my observation and other sources, is that AY could behave like an apostle because there are some Korean leading brothers who aimed at “political benefit” when they admire AY as an apostle. In return, the admirers’ control power in Korea grew strong accordingly. In worst case, this is a dark bargain, and in a moderate case, this is irresponsible power struggle, at best?... might be ignorance of the truth and thoughtlessness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Gubei

The case of South Korea gives us a very meaningful insights surrounding “only apostles can appoint elders principle”. At first sight, this principle sounded very convincing and plausible to me 30 years ago, but as time went by, I realized that in reality this principle cannot be applied as intended, because in order to strictly abide by this principle we first have to trace back to the qualification of anyone’s apostleship which usually leads us to nowhere. In case of Seoul, who was “the” apostle? Mr. Kown (also called Mr. Wang)?, Mr. Y? Mr. S? WL? AY? RK?

Regarding Nee's teaching, based on Acts 14.23 and Titus 1.5, the most we can conclude is that it happened. The Bible described what happened, yet never prescribed that it must happen this way. There is no teaching that demands that the apostle alone can appoint elders.

This errant teaching can only work for initial church startups. What happens when the original apostle passes away? What about the subsequent centuries? Are we then at the mercy of self-appointed apostles who appoint elders whose only qualification is loyalty to headquarters? Unfortunately that has happened far too often. Yet the Bible never tells us that the church belongs to the apostles, rather the church is of God and is of the saints.

Originally Posted by Gubei

In my business office, one senior used to ask his juniors jokingly “what is a leader?”. There were a lot of answers from the juniors like a guy with vision for business prosperity, a guy who knows well how to operate, a guy who has a charisma etc… he just listened to those, and finally gave us his answer. “A leader is the guy who has his followers”. An analogy is possible with apostleship. Apostleship needs those who accept it.

And this is why LSM manipulates LC elders and workers. I watched many gifted brothers in the LC's get drafted as workers, and then are forced to migrate away from their home church. This creates a ministry "vacuum" in that church, that only LSM can fill. Then LSM will send their workers to that church to minister. This is how these false apostles create needy "followers" in these LC's.

Originally Posted by Gubei

Then, why was it possible for AY to have appointed elders in Seoul? In fact, even WL didn’t dare to do that when he was alive.
An possible explanation I can conjecture, and I think this is most likely according to my observation and other sources, is that AY could behave like an apostle because there are some Korean leading brothers who aimed at “political benefit” when they admire AY as an apostle. In return, the admirers’ control power in Korea grew strong accordingly. In worst case, this is a dark bargain, and in a moderate case, this is irresponsible power struggle, at best?... might be ignorance of the truth and thoughtlessness.

You are right. LSM can make promises to certain local leaders. Let's be honest, some elders are vulnerable to bribes of various kinds.

Before Titus Chu was quarantined, two leaders in Chicago of the Midwest region in the USA were "bribed" by the blendeds at LSM. Money was given to them in order to pay for their meeting hall expansion. They compromised the truth for financial gain. Then they agreed to turn on Titus Chu, and agree with the evil quarantine. Dirty politics at its worst.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You are right. LSM can make promises to certain local leaders. Let's be honest, some elders are vulnerable to bribes of various kinds.

Before Titus Chu was quarantined, two leaders in Chicago of the Midwest region in the USA were "bribed" by the blendeds at LSM. Money was given to them in order to pay for their meeting hall expansion. They compromised the truth for financial gain. Then they agreed to turn on Titus Chu, and agree with the evil quarantine. Dirty politics at its worst.

So sad to hear this story of Midwest... BTW, similar suspicions are prevalent among some "concerned" Korean brothers, most of them have been sidelined already though. One difference is that the direction of financial stuff seems to be opposite here.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

Interestingly, I'm an ex-member of the pentecostal church by David Yonggi Cho, that's when I was an elementary schooler though. I remember David Yonggi Cho's early ministry was quite sound but as his church got bigger, problems crept in, especially his son's too secular engagement in a business and his marriage to a famous actress were shocking enough to me at that time.

We had a discussion on David Yonggi Cho on this forum in 2014; here are some interesting points made by a participant:

Originally Posted by bearbear

The pastor of the largest congregation in the world with 1 million members allegedly fell into the same type of sins as Witness Lee: he made decisions showing that he loved his sons more than the church and broke enough laws to possibly land him and his son in jail for 3 years. The allegations against him are startlingly similar to Witness Lee:

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/...vid-yonggi-cho

"Cho has three sons. The second and third sons are very productive and work in church-related ministries. His eldest son has been the prodigal. He has been married four times and has been involved in sexual scandals with national personalities. In addition, he has served prison time for investment scams and embezzlement. His scandalized life has been an embarrassment to his family and the church.

Twelve years ago, this son purposely defrauded the church in excess of $12 million in a stock-related scheme. Cho testified that he trusted his elders and son and didn’t check and read the thousands of pages of paperwork, which was prepared for him to sign. Because Cho relied upon the direction of his choice elders and son, he signed the papers. He never received any monies from the transaction."

We had this discussion at a church planning retreat because our church has both english and chinese ministry and we realized we needed to reconcile many differences in culture and communication.

Here are some of the conclusions we reached with my own views thrown in:

Chinese and asians in general are culturally trained to obey first and ask questions later. We're a culture that honors, respects and tries not to challenge authority. So we're much more susceptible to hero worship and unquestioningly following leaders. Things tend to be more black and white. We like following commands and absolutes.

Westerners on the other hand need to have dialogue, discussion and back and forth before committing to things. The culture is not as leader oriented as asians though it can be.

For example, when someone doesn't participate or ask questions during a group discussion led by an authority figure, westerners take that to mean that this person is not contributing. However for asians, a person who is asking questions and challenging ideas is more likely to be viewed as a trouble maker and a usurper of authority.

I think God was merciful to Cho for exposing his sin while he is alive so he could repent. He expressed great sorrow during his last sermon and said he was unworthy to enter the kingdom of God. That's the kind of thing you'd never hear that from Witness Lee's mouth so perhaps he is a bit more different.

Here's another article that's a bit more negative:

http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/engli...al/611326.html

One of the former elders at the press conference, Ha Sang-ok, previously admitted to taking part in giving 1.5 billion won (US$1.4 million) while collecting the book “Madame Butterfly in Paris” from a female vocalist in France named Jeong who anonymously wrote the account about an affair with Cho.

“A sect leader might violate the commandments and do as he wishes, but a pastor cannot do that,” Ha said. “Over the past 14 years, I have met with Rev. Cho many times to try to persuade him to repent and return to being a great pastor, but the corruption has continued. That‘s why I had no choice but to disclose it to the outside world.”

Here's an article hinting at his possible remorse and repentance:
http://www.christiantoday.com/articl....12m/35994.htm

"God forbid, if God calls me back today, I will still be able to go to the Kingdom of God," he was quoted by the website as saying.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

We had a discussion on David Yonggi Cho on this forum in 2014; here are some interesting points made by a participant:

Thanks for the links. Yes, that's what has happened in my country. So sad.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Gubei

Thanks for the links. Yes, that's what has happened in my country. So sad.

Aron wrote:
We had a discussion on David Yonggi Cho on this forum in 2014;

Back in the day, we former LCrs touched on the 7 churches in Revelation. I recall being fascinated by Nee's book 'the orthodox of the church'. The last time I looked at it, I saw Lee's handprints on it and thus I was somewat disappointed in it. It was tainted.

In any case, the Word is still clear. We are told in Revelation 2:6-7 as the Lord is reprimending the church in Ephesus thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches He repeats it again in vs 15. (I recall reading that when a scripture or word is repeated twice such as when Jesus says Truly, Truly, it is very important and thus we are to pay attention.)


I don't know how much light was shed by Lee on the study of the Nicolaetians. Was it a 'wink wink' ?

Recently I have been given these scriptures some thought and have been doing some studying/research on the meaning and practice of the Nicolaetians.

From the article Doctrine or Teaching of the Nicolaitans and Church Government:

the Teaching of the Nicolaitans is basically when religious leaders rule over others. This is something God hates because man was always to be ruled only by its creator. So who is our creator? Our creator is YHWH, creator of the universe. So then how can the so-called evangelists, priests, pope and other ministers rule over us under the banner of religion? The reason is we have allowed it to happen. The day when we tell God that we want to follow religious leaders, then God allows these leaders to rule over us. This is the teaching that YHWH hates.

From the time of creation, man was to obey God and listen to God, not men. This was the system that was put in place by God. Because of our rebellion towards God, we created our own man made religious system where we started to listen to what men tell us. The system that Nimrod once started still flourishes all around the world. In today’s system, we give our support to the church that tells us what to do. God is just a picture of imagination for these churches. This is the reason why God is not real for millions of people in this world. We have put our trust and faith in men and in churches, who we believe can save us, which is the doctrine of Nicolaitans that originated from Nimrod, the father of all Nicolaitans. This is the doctrine and teaching that God hates.
Teaching of the Nicolaitans is basically when religious leaders rule over others. This is something God hates because man was always to be ruled only by its creator. So who is our creator? Our creator is YHWH, creator of the universe. So then how can the so-called evangelists, priests, pope and other ministers rule over us under the banner of religion? The reason is we have allowed it to happen. The day when we tell God that we want to follow religious leaders, then God allows these leaders to rule over us. This is the teaching that YHWH hates.

From the time of creation, man was to obey God and listen to God, not men. This was the system that was put in place by God. Because of our rebellion towards God, we created our own manmade religious system where we started to listen to what men tell us. The system that Nimrod once started still flourishes all around the world. In today’s system, we give our support to the church that tells us what to do.

God is just a picture of imagination for these churches. This is the reason why God is not real for millions of people in this world. We have put our trust and faith in men and in churches, who we believe can save us, which is the doctrine of Nicolaitans that originated from Nimrod, the father of all Nicolaitans. This is the doctrine and teaching that God hates.

Food for thought.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

We're told in Revelation 2:6-7 as the Lord is reprimending the church in Ephesus thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches He repeats it again in vs 15.

Recently I've given these scriptures some thought and have been doing some studying/research on the meaning and practice of the Nicolaetians..

At first glance, David Yonggi Cho and Witness Lee could hardly appear more dissimilar. Cho established a worldly-appearing megachurch, exactly the kind of "fallen Christianity" that Lee so often decried.

Yet both men allowed their unspiritual progeny free rein in the church, with disastrous consequences, and these disasters were covered and even furthered by the machinery of protection both men had built around themselves. In each case, underlings were enlisted to quietly and carefully do the dirty work so that the leader could save face, and appear pure.

It doesn't matter whether it's Chinese, Korean, Roman, or German - it's the way of the gentiles, the way of fallen humanity. This will not stand. Faith in Jesus is the foundation, and love for the 'other' the building material. Anything else will not last.

With both Lee and Cho, self-interest came into play, abetted and enlarged by shared understandings and values; in both cases, aides were enlisted who furthered their own selfish ends by promoting the interests of the leader. Eventually, the founder was gone but the "protection racket" remained, seeking new accomplices and victims. But it's not the kingdom of the heavens, and ultimately it will fade to obscurity. It's not built to last.

If you seek temporal ends, your building work won't remain. What a lesson for us all.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

But it's not the kingdom of the heavens, and ultimately it will fade to obscurity. It's not built to last.

Anything that could be destroyed should be destroyed. Let us trust in the One who opens and no one can shut and shuts and no one can open.

Drake

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Drake

Anything that could be destroyed should be destroyed.

Very True! And if Witness Lee would have prayed this prayer 60 years ago, we wouldn't all be here tonight on this forum. But, God does work all things out, now doesn't he?
-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Very True! And if Witness Lee would have prayed this prayer 60 years ago, we wouldn't all be here tonight on this forum. But, God does work all things out, now doesn't he?
-

Brother Lees prayer would not change what the the Lord opens and shuts. Nor yours, nor mine.

[UntoHim]

Very true Drake. But I wasn't talking about changing what God does or doesn't do, I was talking about what Witness Lee did and didn't do. History has shown that Lee opened a lot of doors he should have kept shut, and he shut a lot of doors he should have kept open. Yes, in the end, all things have worked together for good, but Witness could have saved us a lot of heartache, pain and suffering along the way....just sayin...
-

[Drake]

... therefore UntoHim, we put our trust in the One who opens and shuts!

[UntoHim]

That's all well and good, my friend, but the problem is that Local Churchers are being blocked from putting their full trust in the One who opens and shuts. There are many unnecessary and unbiblical "intermediaries" that they have to go through. They must believe that Witness Lee is the one minister with the one ministry for the age. There is the One Publication. There is even fear that leaving the movement will put them in spiritual danger, at best, and maybe even worse will befall those who stray from the Local Church of Witness Lee.

Don't believe me...just listen to the president of the Living Stream Ministry, Mr Benson Phillips:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis mine)
-

[Ohio]

Benson would never acknowledge that any man on earth is a "great spiritual person," let alone those who have left his recovery.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Benson would never acknowledge that any man on earth is a "great spiritual person," let alone those who have left his recovery.

Don't believe me...just listen to the president of the Living Stream Ministry, Mr Benson Phillips:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis mine)

What Benson said here is soooooo unbiblical!!! No where in the bible including the 'recovery' version is there a scripture that says The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”.

My bible says I am sanctified by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB, not by the LSM! Shame on Benson and Witness Lee.. the blendeds for instilling FEAR in the saints by manipulating and controlling the saints so they won't abandon ship.


-

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by BensonPhillips

“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)
-

If that's the case, then there could be no overcomers in Christianity. That's another example of exclusivism.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by aron

At first glance, David Yonggi Cho and Witness Lee could hardly appear more dissimilar.

To my best knowledge, David Yonggi Cho didn't claim he is the minister of the age. At least he admitted other "ministries"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Gubei

To my best knowledge, David Yonggi Cho didn't claim he is the minister of the age. At least he admitted other "ministries"

Originally Posted by Drake

Anything that could be destroyed should be destroyed.

To claim primacy for one's vision or truth is a fallacy and should be rejected. I did not see this when I joined the LC. It was so convenient, to have all the great truths of Christianity encapsulated in one ministry. One-stop-shopping.

The problem is, if there is error (and there is always error of emphasis or omission), there is no way to correct it, and eventually it swallows everything.

But the wisdom of the Bible (surprise!) has the answer. "In the multitude of counselors is safety".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

To claim primacy for one's vision or truth is a fallacy and should be rejected. I did not see this when I joined the LC. It was so convenient, to have all the great truths of Christianity encapsulated in one ministry. One-stop-shopping.

The problem is, if there is error (and there is always error of emphasis or omission), there is no way to correct it, and eventually it swallows everything.

But the wisdom of the Bible (surprise!) has the answer. "In the multitude of counselors is safety".

Exactly. This is why the Bible places the shepherding of the churches in the hands of local elders.

But then ones like Ignatius came along. He was obsessed with a false fear that some local congregation would succumb to Gnostic heresy. So he created the office of the Bishop. Ignatius spoke outrageous things like, "it is therefore evident that we ought to look at the Bishop as we do upon the Lord Jesus Himself." (Miller's Church History, p.152)

Andrew Miller responds, "Scarcely had the voice of inspiration become silent in the Church, that we hear the voice of new teachers crying loudly and earnestly for the highest honors being paid to the bishop, and a supreme place being given to him." (ibid.)

Sounds like the Recovery MOTA, doesn't it? If we don't learn from history, then we are bound to repeat it. And that's what has happened. Is not this Witness Lee's greatest error -- self-exaltation -- the bitter spring from which all other errors come forth?

Back to aron's point about a multitude of counselors, i.e. the elders in every church. Here we see the Spirit's wisdom caring for the church of God throughout the age of grace. Should error creep into one assembly, it stays there, protecting the rest of the body of Christ. But under the papal/bishopric/MOTA systems, errors are guaranteed to spread like metastasized cancer, enabled by employing agents from headquarters (think: DCP) attacking the immune system of the body.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Back to aron's point about a multitude of counselors, i.e. the elders in every church. Here we see the Spirit's wisdom caring for the church of God throughout the age of grace. Should error creep into one assembly, it stays there, protecting the rest of the body of Christ. But under the papal/bishopric/MOTA systems, errors are guaranteed to spread like metastasized cancer, enabled by employing agents from headquarters (think: DCP) attacking the immune system of the body.

If a local elder goes off the rails, and pulls most of the local congregants with them, then neighbouring assemblies will see a cautionary tale. But if the local elder makes himself de facto pontiff, to rule ALL the assemblies, then his errors can spread unchecked. Then, "There is no one to restrain the madness of the prophet", as the saying goes.

Only Jesus is given unfettered sway. The resurrection from the dead, and the glories which followed, ensure this. No one else should presume such pride of place. Only Jesus is the King. If anyone else wants to be great, they should be the least. Those who presume greatness in this age are in trouble, and they trouble the church.

I keep coming back to the quote by the current President of LSM:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

That's all well and good, my friend, but the problem is that Local Churchers are being blocked from putting their full trust in the One who opens and shuts. There are many unnecessary and unbiblical "intermediaries" that they have to go through. They must believe that Witness Lee is the one minister with the one ministry for the age. There is the One Publication. There is even fear that leaving the movement will put them in spiritual danger, at best, and maybe even worse will befall those who stray from the Local Church of Witness Lee.

Don't believe me...just listen to the president of the Living Stream Ministry, Mr Benson Phillips:“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph --

Notice the words he uses: "a great spiritual person on the earth". So they think there are those, on this side of the Bema of Christ, who can claim greatness. Wrong. They also use the term "spiritual giants"... the only "giants" in the Bible are the unholy off-spring of the fallen angels and the fallen humanity ~Genesis 6 & passim. Not really something to pursue as a goal. For us, there's one "great spiritual person" - his name is Jesus Christ. Anyone else who makes such pretensions is deluded. This is Christianity 101, folks.

Now, at the Bema, if Christ calls you higher - wonderful! We all rejoice. But don't presume anything before that day. ~Luke 14:8

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Gubei

Currently, I'm curious whether there is any good way to rescue some brothers and sisters who I guess by now feel bad for the LCs unreasonable and unbiblical practice. Of course I know if I try in a naive way then I will end up with no fruits and only with all the bad labeling like rebellion etc.

The blood of the Lamb and the word of your testimony.

I heard one man share his testimony and he said that when stuff happens to you, let's say your impression is that it is a bad experience. It is like a rock falling on you. If you stay quiet you leave that rock sitting on top of you. But when you share your experience you begin to crawl out from under that rock and eventually you can stand on it.

If other christians have never experienced what we experienced in the LC then they cannot spot the warning signs, they cannot feel the same significance over certain verses, and they cannot respond to the heresies with the Lord's word like we can. I believe the body of Christ is better off because of our testimony.