WWBLD 2.0

[zeek]

I can testify that the formula applied when I participated in the Local Churches [1973-1986] was to dumb all the music down to the lowest common denominator. As a guitarist I was directed to limit my playing to strumming in unison with the most basic rhythm. Any strumming pattern that was in the slightest bit interesting or finessed was rejected. Boring. Everything else was rejected as "soulish." According to that logic, playing chords in unison like a beginner must be spiritual. So, what was preached to be the activity of the "corporate body of Christ" was, in practice, merely cookie-cutter uniformity. Creativity was stifled. The only creativity that was allowed in the LC was Witness Lee's creative reading of the Bible.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I can testify that the formula applied when I participated in the Local Churches [1973-1986] was to dumb all the music down to the lowest common denominator. As a guitarist I was directed to limit my playing to strumming in unison with the most basic rhythm. Any strumming pattern that was in the slightest bit interesting or finessed was rejected. Boring. Everything else was rejected as "soulish." According to that logic, playing chords in unison like a beginner must be spiritual. So, what was preached to be the activity of the "corporate body of Christ" was, in practice, merely cookie-cutter uniformity. Creativity was stifled. The only creativity that was allowed in the LC was Witness Lee's creative reading of the Bible.

With Lee's creativity who needs creativity? Lee's creativity was of God, yours is soulish. Get your creativity vicariously, thru Lee. Then you don't have to worry about it ... or strain yer mind and imagination.

Ha.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by zeek

I can testify that the formula applied when I participated in the Local Churches [1973-1986] was to dumb all the music down to the lowest common denominator. As a guitarist I was directed to limit my playing to strumming in unison with the most basic rhythm. Any strumming pattern that was in the slightest bit interesting or finessed was rejected. Boring. Everything else was rejected as "soulish." According to that logic, playing chords in unison like a beginner must be spiritual. So, what was preached to be the activity of the "corporate body of Christ" was, in practice, merely cookie-cutter uniformity. Creativity was stifled. The only creativity that was allowed in the LC was Witness Lee's creative reading of the Bible.

When we had 6 to 8 guitars in Dallas, that unison strumming could be impressive. But I was pretty good at doing interesting emphasis even while strumming in unison. Sometimes do it quickly to only hit the downs (with an occasion up hit thrown in for good measure). Others slower both up and down. And constantly changing from one to the other.

Yeah, trying to soup it up a little.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by OBW

When we had 6 to 8 guitars in Dallas, that unison strumming could be impressive. But I was pretty good at doing interesting emphasis even while strumming in unison. Sometimes do it quickly to only hit the downs (with an occasion up hit thrown in for good measure). Others slower both up and down. And constantly changing from one to the other.

Yeah, trying to soup it up a little.

"Impressive" is in the ear of the beholder. But, weren't your micro-variations defiance of the very principle of uniformity that was supposed to be strictly maintained? In any case, all this misses the object of my question which is why was this considered to be spiritual as opposed to soulical? Unison guitar playing has about it the quality of the communist collective that Witness Lee professed to abhor. I remember Lee saying, in effect, that leveling collectivity was like the serpent that crawled on its belly and that God's building wasn't like that. Why then was that kind of collectivism embraced by the local churches? Just one more contradiction?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Impressive" is in the ear of the beholder. But, weren't your micro-variations defiance of the very principle of uniformity that was supposed to be strictly maintained? In any case, all this misses the object of my question which is why was this considered to be spiritual as opposed to soulical? Unison guitar playing has about it the quality of the communist collective that Witness Lee professed to abhor. I remember Lee saying, in effect, that leveling collectivity was like the serpent that crawled on its belly and that God's building wasn't like that. Why then was that kind of collectivism embraced by the local churches? Just one more contradiction?

Yes. It is quite possible that my personal variations were not someone else's cup or tea. But we didn't get the kind of strict uniformity dictated to us that you seemed to have gotten. There wasn't an expectation of even looking like robots carefully strumming up and down in perfect unison with the same amount of arc in the pendulum of our arms. In fact, I note that there was some variation in how we approached the whole thing. Some began their stroke on the beat while others were at the bottom string. Some just pushed their hand with pick held stiff while others flicked their wrist to make the strum as much all together rather than a short arpeggio.

But it still mostly sounded uniform. No solos. I did play bass some of the time and there was some freedom to do more than just an old-fashioned country base line, but not a whole lot. I actually can still remember most of the pattern to do "A Mighty Fortress" though I think I was missing a few of the non-root notes.

The problem with the "rules" is not that they save us from soulishness, but that they enforce one person's soul as acceptable. Since it is not ours, we "benefit." (where's that tongue-in-cheek smilie when you need it?)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Yes. It is quite possible that my personal variations were not someone else's cup or tea. But we didn't get the kind of strict uniformity dictated to us that you seemed to have gotten. There wasn't an expectation of even looking like robots carefully strumming up and down in perfect unison with the same amount of arc in the pendulum of our arms.

This conformity is mentioned in Steve's new thread -- Church Ground Becomes the Lining Up with a Man and a Ministry.

In his link he brings up: "in February 1986 when the same two brothers drew up a letter of allegiance to brother Lee that was signed by 400+ elders and co-workers during an international elders’ conference in Southern California."

He quotes:

"Dear Brother Lee,
After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord’s recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord’s ministry and the one wise master builder among us…."

[zeek]

Originally Posted by OBW

Yes. It is quite possible that my personal variations were not someone else's cup or tea. But we didn't get the kind of strict uniformity dictated to us that you seemed to have gotten. There wasn't an expectation of even looking like robots carefully strumming up and down in perfect unison with the same amount of arc in the pendulum of our arms. In fact, I note that there was some variation in how we approached the whole thing. Some began their stroke on the beat while others were at the bottom string. Some just pushed their hand with pick held stiff while others flicked their wrist to make the strum as much all together rather than a short arpeggio.

But it still mostly sounded uniform. No solos. I did play bass some of the time and there was some freedom to do more than just an old-fashioned country base line, but not a whole lot. I actually can still remember most of the pattern to do "A Mighty Fortress" though I think I was missing a few of the non-root notes.

The problem with the "rules" is not that they save us from soulishness, but that they enforce one person's soul as acceptable. Since it is not ours, we "benefit." (where's that tongue-in-cheek smilie when you need it?)

So, although some variation was permitted, essentially the same method of unison strumming was practiced where you were as it was in the three Local Churches that I participated in. Where did the practice come from? Who decided that it was to be done that way? I don't know, but it certainly wasn't me. I observed the practice in other LCs that I visited. Clearly it wasn't a "local" practice. Do you suppose that when people got in touch with the Spirit in their spirit, they just spontaneously played that way?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

This conformity is mentioned in Steve's new thread -- Church Ground Becomes the Lining Up with a Man and a Ministry.

In his link he brings up: "in February 1986 when the same two brothers drew up a letter of allegiance to brother Lee that was signed by 400+ elders and co-workers during an international elders’ conference in Southern California."

He quotes:

"Dear Brother Lee,
After hearing your fellowship in this elders’ training, we all agree to have a new start in the Lord’s recovery. For this, we all agree to be in one accord and to carry out this new move of the Lord solely through prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. We further agree to practice the recovery one in: teaching, practice, thinking, speaking, essence, appearance, and expression. We repudiate all differences among the churches, and all indifference toward the ministry office, and the other churches. We agree that the church in our place be identical with all the local churches throughout the earth. We also agree to follow your leading as the one who has brought us God’s New Testament economy and has led us into its practice. We agree that this leading is indispensable to our oneness and acknowledge the one trumpet in the Lord’s ministry and the one wise master builder among us…."

The word "further" betrays the willingness of the signers to go beyond the Spirit and the Word to slavish outward conformity. That was already the case in the LCs I participated in prior to that letter.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, although some variation was permitted, essentially the same method of unison strumming was practiced where you were as it was in the three Local Churches that I participated in. Where did the practice come from? Who decided that it was to be done that way? I don't know, but it certainly wasn't me. I observed the practice in other LCs that I visited. Clearly it wasn't a "local" practice. Do you suppose that when people got in touch with the Spirit in their spirit, they just spontaneously played that way?

Actually, our music leader was a bit of a free spirit in some ways. Thinking back on it, I remember certain songs in which he (and some of us who could follow it) did some interesting 1/16ths on a couple of songs in specific places. We did play pretty much together, but it was not robotic unison.

I should add that our music leader eventually left the LCM. Can't remember when, but I think it was not far from when we did (8/87 in our case).

[zeek]

Originally Posted by OBW

Actually, our music leader was a bit of a free spirit in some ways. Thinking back on it, I remember certain songs in which he (and some of us who could follow it) did some interesting 1/16ths on a couple of songs in specific places. We did play pretty much together, but it was not robotic unison.

I should add that our music leader eventually left the LCM. Can't remember when, but I think it was not far from when we did (8/87 in our case).

Tomes has fond memories of the music of the period too:

The Recovery used “recovered songs” set to “rock music” in the 1970s. Many recall singing “Do you know what you were made for?” to The Beatles tune, “Yellow Submarine.” Others remember singing “First man, Adam, then temptation…” to John Denver’s “Country Road.” A song, “When you say Lord (Jesus)” was composed to a Budweiser beer commercial tune!

Thus, proving once again that where taste is concerned, all is relative. I found it stifling like a creative straight jacket. But, hey, it was a conformist paradise.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Tomes

The Recovery used “recovered songs” set to “rock music” in the 1970s. Many recall singing “Do you know what you were made for?” to The Beatles tune, “Yellow Submarine.” Others remember singing “First man, Adam, then temptation…” to John Denver’s “Country Road.” A song, “When you say Lord (Jesus)” was composed to a Budweiser beer commercial tune!

Not part of strumming in unison but just to point out: And no royalties were paid for using the tunes.

In conversation Elden1971 brought up the supplemental song book. I just loved the supplement. But it was chuck full of copyright violations.

Legal churches pay the royalties.

Witness Lee came from China. They have a history of ignoring copyright.

[OBW]

In reference to all of the new songs set to popular songs, I recall when Lee said that it was some kind of error to have those songs, I put a light line through them (dutifully) though in pencil. A couple of years later, one of the leading ones saw one of my lines and asked about it. The funny thing was that it was clear they didn't care about the answer. He wanted to create a point of controversy in which he could claim some high ground above me. Didn't work. Just made me suspect him more.

And a few years later he was run off for running payment for services he performed through the offering box (at least in part).

[zeek]

Witness Lee on Music:

We can find out how music came about if we study the Bible carefully. Music came into existence after man had lost the enjoyment of God due to his fall and removal from God’s presence. Man invented music for self-amusement because he had been alienated from God and had lost his joy in God. Thus, music was brought in because man had lost God (Gen. 4:21). A person who has God has music. The Bible tells us that the best music is God Himself. A person who has God can make melody in his heart. Millions of saved ones can testify that they sing and make melody because they have God as their music. If a person does not have God, he does not have music; he can neither sing nor play music. Therefore, he has to seek after music outside of God. The reason that man seeks after music is that he does not have God. He seeks after amusement because he has lost God. [The Pursuit of a Christian, Chapter 1, Section 1)]

Jubal invented music (4:21). He invented harps and pipes. In fact, the very name Jubal means "jubilee" or "a joyful sound" or "music." What is music? Music is a type of amusment which makes people joyful. Why does man need such amusement? Because he has lost God as his joy. God is man's true enjoyment. A number of times in the past when my friends invited me to attend the movies with them, I said to them, "I don't need that. I have something much better than your movie." I don't even need to watch television, for I have a heavenly television. Everything in the New Jerusalem has been televised to me. I can never forget an experience I had when visiting the city of Houston. A friend was taking me on a tour of the city. However, I told him, "As long as I have seen the New Jerusalem, I don't need to see any earthly city." I am not speaking nonsense. I really mean it.(Life-Study of Genesis, Chapter 24, Section 6)

We have seen that the leader was drugged and befuddled and that the function of life was lost. But the daughters, the members of this free group, still wanted to bear fruit and have the increase. Although they had neither the proper leadership nor the function of life, they had an evil way of acquiring the seed. The same is true among many free groups today. In order to bear fruit, we should live by Christ, live out Christ, pray, and help people to receive the living word of God so that they might be reborn. This is the way to bring forth the proper fruit to be the "Isaac" for the fulfilling of God's purpose. But look at today's situation: some groups use rock music, dancing, drama, movies, and games to satisfy their desire of securing the increase. In the eyes of God, this is spiritual incest. The free groups adopt these methods because the wife, being worldly, has lost her function. In the churches we need the function of life to produce seed. Once people have lost the proper wife with the function in life, they use ugly and worldly means for securing the increase. This is the way of "incest" which brings forth "Moabites" and "Ammonites."(Life-Study of Genesis, Chapter 54, Section 4)

The way of much of today's Christianity suffocates the spirit. They quench the spirit. When you go to many of their meeting places, there is an atmosphere of keeping everything quiet. The congregation sits quietly and listens to music. Some big cathedrals are dark inside. The windows may all be stained glass and the music is played on a great pipe organ. No one can be wild in a place like that. When you walk in, your spirit is killed. Who exercises their spirit in such a worship service? What is needed for the church meetings is for us to exercise our spirit.

(Elders' Training, Book 08: The Life-Pulse of the Lord's Present Move, Chapter 3, Section 1)

The way of much of today's Christianity suffocates the spirit. They quench the spirit. When you go to many of their meeting places, there is an atmosphere of keeping everything quiet. The congregation sits quietly and listens to music. Some big cathedrals are dark inside. The windows may all be stained glass and the music is played on a great pipe organ. No one can be wild in a place like that. When you walk in, your spirit is killed. Who exercises their spirit in such a worship service? What is needed for the church meetings is for us to exercise our spirit.

(Elders' Training, Book 08: The Life-Pulse of the Lord's Present Move, Chapter 3, Section 1)

Although I do not know much about music, and although I do not have a good voice or an ear for music, I do love to sing.
Key Points on the Home Meetings, Chapter 2, Section 1)

Like all of us, Lee had his own musical tastes. He wasn't an authority on it. His opinions about it are understandable given his background and prejudices. They don't appear particularly profound or illuminating. In my opinion, if the subject is religious music, we should ask ourselves : "What would Johann Sebastian Bach do? "

[OBW]

Originally Posted by zeek

Like all of us, Lee had his own musical tastes. He wasn't an authority on it. His opinions about it are understandable given his background and prejudices. They don't appear particularly profound or illuminating. In my opinion, if the subject is religious music, we should ask ourselves : "What would Johann Sebastian Bach do? "

Lee seems more determined to regiment his group's music to be unique where possible. The hymnal may have many pre-LCM songs in it, but they tended to prefer their own writings. And it would always be only the music from the past — old music. All this coming from the man who disdained anything "old."

I know that a lot of churches (not LCM, obviously) will use Bach preludes and other pieces as music played as people come in and go out. And the tune from his Ave Maria has been used for many choir pieces. Seems that so much of his music was even written for the church, including various masses. Not endorsing it wholeheartedly. But it might not be the worst question to ask. Much better than WWBLD.

[OBW]

And while off-topic, I liked this particular quote:

The way of much of today's Christianity suffocates the spirit. They quench the spirit. When you go to many of their meeting places, there is an atmosphere of keeping everything quiet. The congregation sits quietly and listens to music. Some big cathedrals are dark inside. The windows may all be stained glass and the music is played on a great pipe organ. No one can be wild in a place like that. When you walk in, your spirit is killed. Who exercises their spirit in such a worship service? What is needed for the church meetings is for us to exercise our spirit.

(Elders' Training, Book 08: The Life-Pulse of the Lord's Present Move, Chapter 3, Section 1)

The whole premise that quietness are reverence simply kills your spirit is probably evidence that the person speaking has no idea what the Spirit is. But instead he is focused solely on his personal and outward demonstration of something to prove that his own spirit is alive. What a ridiculous limitation on the movement of the Spirit.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by OBW

Lee seems more determined to regiment his group's music to be unique where possible. The hymnal may have many pre-LCM songs in it, but they tended to prefer their own writings. And it would always be only the music from the past — old music. All this coming from the man who disdained anything "old."

I know that a lot of churches (not LCM, obviously) will use Bach preludes and other pieces as music played as people come in and go out. And the tune from his Ave Maria has been used for many choir pieces. Seems that so much of his music was even written for the church, including various masses. Not endorsing it wholeheartedly. But it might not be the worst question to ask. Much better than WWBLD.

Bach is indispensible. But creation did not end with him. In my opinion, there are great artists of the Spirit today and they're not all Christians or even theists. The spirit is not about having the right dogma. It is of itself so. It can be appreciated but not intellectually grasped. That's what great musicians and those they touch with their music do.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Witness Lee on Music:

Like all of us, Lee had his own musical tastes. He wasn't an authority on it. His opinions about it are understandable given his background and prejudices. They don't appear particularly profound or illuminating. In my opinion, if the subject is religious music, we should ask ourselves : "What would Johann Sebastian Bach do? "

Maybe these messages on music by Lee was just Lee passing gas.