Love vs. Purity

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

When you see RG, RK, BP, DYL, TC and other leaders separating themselves from each other you realize that they had no love for one another; or conversely that they loved their doctrines, teachings, and organizations more than the actual human being next to them (i.e. their 'neighbor').

aron addressed a topic which comes up from time to time. Actually this phenomena has troubled the body of Christ since day one. For lack of a better description, I will just label it "Love vs. Purity."

Nearly every new denomination has begun because certain men of God desired to restore the church to its virgin "purity." Up here in greater "Ahia" we have the largest Amish community in the world -- just one more sect which has, in its core, the desire for a more "pure" Christian testimony. Whether Lutherans, Brethren, LC'ers, or whoever, all wanted a "purity" of churchlife which apparently did not exist in the greater body of Christ, and so they started something new. I'm not saying this is inherently wrong, because it often was initiated by the Spirit of God, rather I am just making an historical observation.

My question is just how "pure" is pure. In other words, when should the leaders exercise love, tolerance, and forbearance, and when should the leaders decide to "cut off" that which is impure. Is the church united by what is positive of God, or is it united by what is judged by God? John Darby went so far as to say that the oneness of the church assembly was based on the common judgment of evil. His initial tract among the Brethren by this name perhaps best summarizes all exclusive systems.

Who determines what is evil? That is the difficult question which each and every church or group of churches must confront. As these denominations amass their own list of taboos (in their mind unforgiveable sins), they become more exclusive and disconnected. It is my personal observation that rotten struggles for power and control within these sects are often disguised as a judgement of evil under the smokescreen of "purity." One might even say that the crucifixion of our Savior was based on some misguided sence of Mosaic "purity," and hence the high priest prophesied, "it is expedient for this Man to die for our nation."

Present day examples abound here. Titus Chu and the Great Lakes LC's were quarantined for using worldly means like guitars and drums to attract young people. Not using ministry materials from LSM warranted justifiable lawsuits in numerous cities. In the name of Recovery "purity," leaders at LSM were willing to violate any number of scriptures. Their intolerance and distorted obsession with "purity" for the "Lord's testimony" enables them to vindicate any means necessary.

In the end many children of God are hurt when leaders play "purity" games. Why are LC leaders constantly obsessed with "good material?" Why would the BB's amputate the arms (Brazil) and legs (GLA) to save their "body?" Why would all their remaining members be convinced that such action is a good thing? Why would members have no feeling when the saint next to them is suddenly missing after decades of being together?

What happened to love? You know the simple summary commands from the Lord to love God and love your neighbor? Like that old Turner classic, "What's love got to do with it," members of exclusive systems like the Recovery lose sight of what matters most. How is it that they can be convinced that "natural" love is evil like the honey of old, and spoils their offerings? As a result of this obsession, many get hurt. This forum is filled with sad stories like these. Many others get discouraged and disillusioned with their Christian walk, and decide to give it up.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

aron addressed a topic which comes up from time to time. Actually this phenomena has troubled the body of Christ since day one. For lack of a better description, I will just label it "Love vs. Purity."


What happened to love? You know the simple summary commands from the Lord to love God and love your neighbor?

WOW!!
I posted a comment on God's LOVE about an hour ago?? It was a response addressed to Awareness in the other thread.

I have been rediscovering God's Love in the last 2 weeks. I shared what I have been experiencing and it is GONE!!

I do not know if it did not go through or if it was deleted which I doubt.

Then I see a new thread pop up! Love vs Purity! WOW!

Will have to start a new with my post then! I can't believe it did not go through.

Oh well...I re wrote my post in the deleted religous whatever thead.. and this is an excerpt of what I wrote:

Recently I have been going back to square ONE. Reading up on God's Love. GOD LOVES ME. HE REALLY REALLY LOVES ME AND He LOVES US ALL!! The Precious Blood of Jesus was shed to make us clean. We do not need to clean ourselves. His Blood does that FOR US! ALL WE NEED TO DO is LOVE our GOD with all our hearts, and our souls and our spirits.

We have become so judgmental and I am the chiefest of them! I got caught up in being more 'mature'. Well that happens but if we are 'mature' and don't have God's Love, what good am I to GOD? Thankfully, I have had God's LOVE in me all along. I could not be who I am today without His Precious Love.

If interested, you can read the rest of my post in the other thread.

Blessings!
Carol

[aron]

This topic is certainly a tough one. We can see the lack of love in others easily. But do my "posts" convey any love? Or merely self-righteous indignation? Not so easy.

All I can really do is point to Jesus the Nazarene. In a culture obsessed with purity, some of it cultural/ritual, but a lot of it quite pressing, actually (think of what happened if you touched a leper, or someone with a running sore) here was this guy who was a "friend of sinners and harlots".

Think of the scene which the weeping woman washed his feet. The scribes thought, "If this guy knew who was really touching him..." There must be 25 stories like this in the gospel. Jesus again and again violated the norms of "purity".

And yet on the other hand, the unclean spirits, who could function quite well amongst the religious hypocrites, cried out in fear when Jesus appeared. "Ah! What do we have to do with you, Jesus, Nazarene?!" So here was clearly the arrival and display of a different level of purity.

So what can I say, really? I am a failure like a rest. I fail at both my attempts at purity, and at love. All I can say in my own defense is that I have not tried to institutionalize my failures, and impose them as the norm. Some other folks I am not sure if they can say that.

[aron]

Carol,

I read your comment that recently you have been going back to square one. I can relate. I wish I could learn to abide there. "But you have left your first love..."

What can I say?

"But give thanks to the LORD for He is good. For His mercy endureth forever."

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Carol,

I read your comment that recently you have been going back to square one. I can relate. I wish I could learn to abide there. "But you have left your first love..."

What can I say?

"But give thanks to the LORD for He is good. For His mercy endureth forever."

I PRAY I never lost my first LOVE!! I don't believe I did as not a day goes by that I don't say "I Love You Abba Father, I Love You Lord Jesus. I Love You Holy Spirit!"

It had been a long time since I looked at scriptures regarding His Love for us.

I am SURE the HOLY SPIRIT would hit me over the head had I drifted away from the Love for our LORD! Believe me. He speaks to me a lot! I know His Silence too. Not fun. Not good when He is not pleased with me.

This is not complicated at all. Love does not care about purity. As a matter of fact love grows stronger in the midst of impurity. Christ came to show us how to love, not how to purify. After all the bible tells us that God is Love. It does not say God is Purity. Not sure what is complicated or confusing about that!

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

It had been a long time since I looked at scriptures regarding His Love for us.

The Bible confronts us with true love. I am not sure how much we can return God's love, as much as receive it and in our absorbing, faintly reflect it back at its source.

And likewise with one another: it is not so much that we love one another as we recognize, at least dimly, the great love God has for us all. How can we not respect those whom God loves? Even if we cannot love, we can at least acknowledge and respect His love, which has been freely poured out for all in Christ Jesus.

I am not sure what doctrine, teaching, work, organizational hierarchy, theology or "truth" can over-ride that. It is not called "the greatest commandment" for nothing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nearly every new denomination has begun because certain men of God desired to restore the church to its virgin "purity."... all wanted a "purity" of churchlife which apparently did not exist in the greater body of Christ, and so they started something new.

Brother, now you are starting to think, which makes you useless for the 'building up'. (Sorry, a little tongue-in-cheek humor there)

Originally Posted by Ohio

when should the leaders exercise love, tolerance, and forbearance, and when should the leaders decide to "cut off" that which is impure. ...Who determines what is evil? That is the difficult question which each and every church or group of churches must confront. As these denominations amass their own list of taboos (in their mind unforgivable sins), they become more exclusive and disconnected.

Looking back at my experience, it seemed as if "purity" was kind of positional: if you did whatever the local church leadership dictated, that was pure. If not, you were called "evil", "rebellious" and were cut off. "Pure" was whatever the leaders deemed it to be.

And purity from them was a moving target. Sports and television were once worldly and impure; now they are purified because current leadership says so. Drums and electrical instruments are either pure or impure depending on leadership's judgment. And so forth.

I would argue that the whole system is built on fear. That elder who physically struck you, Ohio, was merely channeling the fear which had been imposed on him. You were supposed to 'shepherd' someone under you, and to do the same. This abusive shepherding is presented as a kind of soul-purifying, cross-imposing duty of flock leadership. I remember one quote of WL in the "Elders Training" book, where he basically channeled the spirit of Rehoboam in 1 Kings 12 and said that he was not here to help, or to release the elders, but rather to lay heavy burdens upon them. "Thus you shall say to this people who spoke to you, saying, 'Your father made our yoke heavy, now you make it lighter for us!' But you shall speak to them, 'My little finger is thicker than my father's loins! 'Whereas my father loaded you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions.'"…

This is a hierarchical, fear- and power-based system masquerading as spiritual -- in my dictionary the very definition of "Babylonian". Funny how we ended up looking so much like the RCC that we had despised and fled from.

In the local churches, as long as we remained dutiful to leadership, this was our standing, our "purity" before God. This was our "positional sanctification", the basis of our faith and expectation. And the only room in this conversation for love is if today's purity expectations are met. As long as you obey current dictates of leadership you feel the love (i.e., approval); if not, watch how quickly it disappears. And occasionally even this ''love'' will be arbitrarily withdrawn, just to show you your place.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

"Pure" was whatever the leaders deemed it to be...And purity from them was a moving target. Sports and television were once worldly and impure; now they are purified because current leadership says so. Drums and electrical instruments are either pure or impure depending on leadership's judgment...

It reminds me of Paul's quote: "All things are pure to the pure". I think he was writing about foods (to the religious Jews a big issue), but he was making a larger point. Like with Jesus before, "It is not what is without, but what is within that matters".

But in the Lord's Recovery, with its unique "ground" and thus unique leadership, the so-called apostle of the age, aka God's present oracle, becomes the working standard of purity. Whatever Witness Lee deemed to be pure was pure, because Witness Lee was pure. No, he was not dispositionally pure; he was a sinner like us. But because God raised him up as the 'acting God' on Earth he was held to be positionally pure. "Even when he's wrong he's right", as the LRC saying went.

So obedience to WL was our own de facto standing of purity. WL was our covering; subservience to this ordained 'acting God' was our mark of purity. As mentioned before, I find this is all too similar to the ideas presented in Daniel 7 and Revelation 13. An externally-derived and externally-enforced "unity" as the approved mark of the "in group" is clearly presented in those chapters as a worldly analog, a counterfeit, of true spiritual reality.

[Ohio]

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Sure wish we had that "auto-save" feature that the other forum has.

[UntoHim]

Ohio,

Sorry about that. Just a word to the wise for everybody - If you are planing to make a long post you may want to think about opening up a MS Word document...most of the newer versions of Word save everything as you go along. Then it's just a simple matter of copying and pasting your post into the forum.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Sure wish we had that "auto-save" feature that the other forum has.

Please re-post if you have the time. I'd like to read more of your views on this topic.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ohio,

Sorry about that. Just a word to the wise for everybody - If you are planing to make a long post you may want to think about opening up a MS Word document...most of the newer versions of Word save everything as you go along. Then it's just a simple matter of copying and pasting your post into the forum.

It was my fault. I had some other tabs open ... usually a dictionary and Bible browser and an email site ... and decided to close them all and wind up my post ... and deleted the LCD tab by mistake. Unfortunately the "undo close tab" feature on Firefox does not include anything I have typed.

Since I'm not much of an original thinker, I try to find inspiration from others ... in this case aron's comments about "moving targets." The other problem I have is a bad memory, so I don't remember all what I wrote.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Sure wish we had that "auto-save" feature that the other forum has.

Tushae! That happened to me yesterday as you know! Sorry for the chuckle... I think the saying "misery loves company' is true. That is why I chuckled.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Tushae! That happened to me yesterday as you know! Sorry for the chuckle... I think the saying "misery loves company' is true. That is why I chuckled.

Tushae??? Excuse your French!

But you must mean "Touche'"

And that's why I open numerous tabs while I post to make each of my posts as "perfect" as possible -- and that's what caused my problem in the first place -- and it has happened other times too!

And yes, in my misery, I do enjoy company! Thanks.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I just lost a lengthy post I was working on. Arrrgh!

Methinks prolly we're the ones that have lost. Arrrgh!

[bearbear]

Whenever I get depressed about doctrinal debates between Christians I like to watch videos of underground churches which are persecuted.

A video of underground churches in China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw

Here's a testimony of Christian persecution in North Korea, believers are so desperate that they meet in secret in pit toilets in the prison camp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXDz...S5i8QI&index=2

In such an environment of persecution denominational differences simply have no room to form. Out of desperation the church is driven to love Jesus with all their heart, soul and mind in unity and to live and hang on every word that comes from the Creator of the universe.

If any of you are touched by these testimonies, here are two good Christian organizations I know of that support persecuted Christians around the world:

open doors USA - http://www.opendoorsusa.org/
voice of the martyrs - https://www.persecution.com/

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Whenever I get depressed about doctrinal debates between Christians I like to watch videos of underground churches which are persecuted.

What a great habit!

We all should learn this from the bear.

[james73]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Whenever I get depressed about doctrinal debates between Christians I like to watch videos of underground churches which are persecuted.

A video of underground churches in China:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

That's not America. That's New York City!

Keep America beautiful. Eat a Pigeon for lunch!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by james73

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

Like Watchman Nee observed : Christians lie.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ohio,

Sorry about that. Just a word to the wise for everybody - If you are planing to make a long post you may want to think about opening up a MS Word document...most of the newer versions of Word save everything as you go along. Then it's just a simple matter of copying and pasting your post into the forum.

I wish that was true. Ever since Office 2007, I can't get it to stop copying in a bunch of formatting stuff as meaningless gibberish. I now just copy my posts out to spell check then work back and forth to check them. It is a fristrating process. Before O2007, I always did my posts in Word.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

I wish that was true. Ever since Office 2007, I can't get it to stop copying in a bunch of formatting stuff as meaningless gibberish. I now just copy my posts out to spell check then work back and forth to check them. It is a fristrating process. Before O2007, I always did my posts in Word.

Often times, as an fyi, If I write a long post, I will click the CTRL + C to copy. Then if it does not go through or I lose it, it is still saved.

It has been a life saver many a time for me. But my mistake when I lost a post I wrote here recently was I think I hit the preview button and then got off the forum

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by james73

That is quite insulting to one who loves China! Christianity in China is nothing like the video portrays. Maybe it was, 50 yrs ago, I don't know. Not blaming you for your ignorance, it's a common theme, the esteemed BBC is one of the worst culprits in spreading this sort of misinformation about China.

Still, you can do anything with some grim looking video footage - here is my absolute favorite, a spoof supposedly from North Korea: How Americans Live

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJoQOQHQ8oA

You're right how Christians were persecuted in China pales in comparison to what is going on in North Korea and other countries. Sorry I didn't mention it's probably more than 30 years ago though it doesn't take away from the fact it happened. It's more of a documentary of what revival can look like under moderate persecution and a lifestyle lived out of desperation for God.

I've heard stories from members of my own church who've met with house church leaders in china. It's true they consider a four hour worship meeting to be short. Regarding persecution it seems like the government doesn't care anymore as long as there is no trouble being caused.

Here's an interview with Pastor Samuel Lamb who detailed some of the persecution that happened in the 90s for those churches who refused to register with the government:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq8kzQZwPTY

[awareness]

Back to topic.

There's different kinds of purity. Witness Lee didn't appear to be concerned about moral purity. He let Nee and his sons slide on their moral failures.

The purity that Lee was concerned with was loyal purity. If you were loyal to him, and his publishing enterprise, you were in. If you weren't you were out.

And I don't know how love played into it all ... Real love seemed to be scarce.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Back to topic.

There's different kinds of purity. Witness Lee didn't appear to be concerned about moral purity. He let Nee and his sons slide on their moral failures.

The purity that Lee was concerned with was loyal purity. If you were loyal to him, and his publishing enterprise, you were in. If you weren't you were out.

And I don't know how love played into it all ... Real love seemed to be scarce.

Interesting observation. Moral purity and love is prioritized in an environment where Jesus is Lord. Loyal purity is prioritized in an environment where the church leader becomes "Lord".

Colossians 3:23-25
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ. For the wrongdoer will be paid back for the wrong he has done, and there is no partiality.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's not America. That's New York City!

I liked the part of the video where they said, "This man waits for heroin."

I was like, "That ain't no spoof, yo." Been there, done that.

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Loyal purity is prioritized in an environment where the church leader becomes "Lord".

You got it, brutha.

The Bible says, "There is one mediator between God and man: the man Christ Jesus."

Brother Lee added, "And there is one mediator between Christ Jesus and redeemed sinners: that man who's the 'acting God', who's been 'raised up' to function as 'God's present oracle', and is thereby deemed to be 'apostle of the age.'"

Raised up, indeed.

[awareness]

The reason, perchance, that real love was scarce in the local church was because friendships were frowned upon. They were considered of the natural man.

So after Mel Porter lowered the boom on me, and then told the saints to have no fellowship with me -- they were told I was a serpent that would poison them -- even those that were close friends with me before the LC would turn their backs on me.

I experienced firsthand the lack of brotherly love in the local church -- the LC is not Philadelphia. They are not interested in the way love, unless loyal to Lee's ministry.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

The reason, perchance, that real love was scarce in the local church was because friendships were frowned upon. They were considered of the natural man.

So after Mel Porter lowered the boom on me, and then told the saints to have no fellowship with me -- they were told I was a serpent that would poison them -- even those that were close friends with me before the LC would turn their backs on me.

I experienced firsthand the lack of brotherly love in the local church -- the LC is not Philadelphia. They are not interested in the way love, unless loyal to Lee's ministry.

Look no further than Luke 6:32 as the definition; "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. "
Loving those that love them. In other words are 100% with LSM publications. If you are slightly critical. You may even use Lee's ministry to point out discrepancies, they will say "you are using the minsitry to attack the ministry." That which needs correcting, adjusting, and rebuking, gets received and labeled as an attack.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Terry

Look no further than Luke 6:32 as the definition; "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. "
Loving those that love them. In other words are 100% with LSM publications. If you are slightly critical. You may even use Lee's ministry to point out discrepancies, they will say "you are using the minsitry to attack the ministry." That which needs correcting, adjusting, and rebuking, gets received and labeled as an attack.

The truth is that they can't even love those in their own group. Just think of John Ingalls et. al. and the quarantines. They can't even love all those that love Jesus. They don't love like Jesus does. They are actually very hateful. They love like cults love ... which is based around a personality.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

The reason, perchance, that real love was scarce in the local church was because friendships were frowned upon. They were considered of the natural man.

So after Mel Porter lowered the boom on me, and then told the saints to have no fellowship with me -- they were told I was a serpent that would poison them -- even those that were close friends with me before the LC would turn their backs on me.

I experienced firsthand the lack of brotherly love in the local church -- the LC is not Philadelphia. They are not interested in the way love, unless loyal to Lee's ministry.

Funny way to think about it . . . . There is no love because there is no friendship.

That is why it is so easy to dump anyone as a leper on little more than a cross look from one of the leaders. You don't love them. You don't even love the leader. You just obey and submit.

Breathe only if given permission.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

The truth is that they can't even love those in their own group. Just think of John Ingalls et. al. and the quarantines. They can't even love all those that love Jesus. They don't love like Jesus does. They are actually very hateful. They love like cults love ... which is based around a personality.

During the God Ordained way training here in the west coast, they had us read a book called "Fellowship Concerning the Urgent Need of the Vital Groups". Just quickly browsing through this book has caused me a little PTSD, I wonder what it will do for those of you who were more invested in the movement.

The main premise of this book is that the stagnant growth of the "Lord's Recovery" can be pinned on the "oldness" of the saints. WLee's solution was to establish a new way via the "Vital Groups". The book shamelessly encourages marginalizing "old" members who are attending the conventional Friday night small groups and Lord's day meetings while encouraging elite members of the "Vital groups" to form an "army" whose aim is to explode the LRC movement in the US with the emphasis of winning over caucasians. I think this is still being projected in the west coast since my wife still gets God Ordained Way training e-mails.

It seems like everything in the LRC system is framed in terms of how much someone can contribute to the movement-- hence young people who are steeped in LRC theology and FTTA grads are highly valued whereas older folks who've been around for a while are viewed as dead weight. Love is given to those who seem useful, but withheld from those who can't give back. If they treat their own members like this, no wonder those who question Witness Lee would be viewed as trash.

If you think about it, the value system set in place seems to describe more of an organization run by Satan than one run by Jesus. The bible teaches us to value people simply because they were made in God's image. In Luke 14:14 Jesus taught us to help those who can't pay us back. Jesus showed this in the way that he lived by investing in uneducated fisherman who had little to offer. Based on the miracles and fame that preceded him Jesus could have easily recruited the most learned and capable Jews in Jerusalem who spent all day studying and memorizing the Torah/Tanakh, but he chose not to (except for that one guy from Jerusalem who turned out to be not that great). You also get this picture in the OT with David/Saul. Saul had the most capable men while David got the rift raft, but look who won in the end because one had the Spirit of God while the other lost it.

You have to feel sorry for those stuck in the LRC based on fear of leaving. The older folks are getting little love

[james73]

Originally Posted by bearbear

"Vital groups" to form an "army" whose aim is to explode the LRC movement in the US with the emphasis of winning over caucasians. I think this is still being projected in the west coast since my wife still gets God Ordained Way training e-mails.

It seems like everything in the LRC system is framed in terms of how much someone can contribute to the movement-- hence young people who are steeped in LRC theology and FTTA grads are highly valued whereas older folks who've been around for a while are viewed as dead weight. Love is given to those who seem useful, but withheld from those who can't give back.

True true, so very true. I had the honor of being the official "First Caucasian to be baptized in the Church of Hong Kong Western District". Tim Chu would not stop bragging about this.

And when a Caucasian came to a meeting, it was as though Jesus himself walked in with Moses on his shoulders. Disgusting behavior, in contrast to how a new Filipino would be treated (unless they worked for an i-bank…. I think a career in finance almost trumped race).

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

The truth is that they can't even love those in their own group. Just think of John Ingalls et. al. and the quarantines. They can't even love all those that love Jesus. They don't love like Jesus does.

I disagree to a point. When you are part of the group think, although conditional, you are loved. There is no unconditional love as Jesus' ministry expresses.
You brought up John Ingalls. You could say for the majority of his time in the local churches (25 years plus), he was loved. The moment John expressed any concerns, the love for John ceased. He suddenly became reputed to be rebellious, ambitious, etc. Understand, the moment your commitment to the local churches is anything less than 100%, the love for you cannot be endured.
If we are all to love as Jesus exhorts all of us to, the love will overcome all of our differences.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The main premise of this book is that the stagnant growth of the "Lord's Recovery" can be pinned on the "oldness" of the saints.

The "oldest" one there was Witness Lee himself ! In his quest to 'lead', he stagnated and got old quick. But never admitted it.

You have to feel sorry for those stuck in the LRC based on fear of leaving. The older folks are getting little love

Indeed. We do. May they feel the saturation of God's LOVE all over them to give them the strength to leave and heal.

[countmeworthy]

I would like to present a LOVE testimony from a person on a Rapture 'ready' YT channel:

May it melt your hearts as it did mine.
__________________________

From: studentinlearning:

God reminded me of something to encourage and share with you all.

After the adoption which exhausted our family beyond belief, I asked the children to pray that God would give us a vacation before the rapture.

Quietly I wanted to go to the beach. Oh, I missed the beach (I grew up a block from it when I was young. And, I had asked the Lord what was wrong with me for having this longing. I was frustrated that I was overwhelmed by the longing.

When we got to the beach, the Lord told me, "Don't you remember that you use to come and sit on the beach and talk to me? You use to cry out to me, and I comforted you here. That is why you long to be here).

So, the children prayed. A person we had only just met offered us their condo on the beach of Fl. for a week. I told the children that we need to ask for the money to travel a very long way to that beach, and our bank accounts were very depleted. They prayed.

That person called back and said that her husband said that they should send us money for gas, lodging, and food for the trip. We traveled down there and felt like we were in heaven. The entire kitchen was packed with food with everything we could have asked (they knew we liked organic foods and wholesome foods). I honestly couldn't have shopped that well myself. The pantries were overflowing. Then, they put two hundred dollars on the counter as spending money, in addition to a check they mailed of seven hundred dollars.

Although this was a big condo of three bedrooms, none of the children dared to sleep in the bedrooms as our condo was over the ocean and they all slept with the doors open and as close to the sunroom that opened onto the beach, wanting to soak in every wave sound (and it was their first time to the ocean). It was surreal. Our family has never been treated with such kindness, so much love, and oh, my-get goosebumps talking about this.

The wife desperately wanted another child, and when her husband saw all seven of our children loving God, his heart changed, and he allowed another child into her family (she became immediately pregnant after we left-God blessed her womb again, and I believe it was because of her kindness that God was pleased).

I knew that would be the last time we would see the beach because the rapture would happen. This was last Feb. I was before the Lord recently because I sooo long for that beach.

It is hard to not want to pray again, but I know His Spirit says no that we are leaving. He clearly said to me, "I want you to now think of Me as your beach and ocean, come to Me for that peace and rest".

I know that I know that I know we are leaving soon, very, very soon. We are still praying for that husband to get saved.

[james73]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I would like to present a LOVE testimony from a person on a Rapture 'ready' YT channel:

May it melt your hearts as it did mine.
__________________________

From: studentinlearning:

God reminded me of something to encourage and share with you all.

After the adoption which exhausted our family beyond belief, I asked the children to pray that God would give us a vacation before the rapture.

Quietly I wanted to go to the beach. Oh, I missed the beach (I grew up a block from it when I was young. And, I had asked the Lord what was wrong with me for having this longing. I was frustrated that I was overwhelmed by the longing.

When we got to the beach, the Lord told me, "Don't you remember that you use to come and sit on the beach and talk to me? You use to cry out to me, and I comforted you here. That is why you long to be here).

So, the children prayed. A person we had only just met offered us their condo on the beach of Fl. for a week. I told the children that we need to ask for the money to travel a very long way to that beach, and our bank accounts were very depleted. They prayed.

That person called back and said that her husband said that they should send us money for gas, lodging, and food for the trip. We traveled down there and felt like we were in heaven. The entire kitchen was packed with food with everything we could have asked (they knew we liked organic foods and wholesome foods). I honestly couldn't have shopped that well myself. The pantries were overflowing. Then, they put two hundred dollars on the counter as spending money, in addition to a check they mailed of seven hundred dollars.

Although this was a big condo of three bedrooms, none of the children dared to sleep in the bedrooms as our condo was over the ocean and they all slept with the doors open and as close to the sunroom that opened onto the beach, wanting to soak in every wave sound (and it was their first time to the ocean). It was surreal. Our family has never been treated with such kindness, so much love, and oh, my-get goosebumps talking about this.

The wife desperately wanted another child, and when her husband saw all seven of our children loving God, his heart changed, and he allowed another child into her family (she became immediately pregnant after we left-God blessed her womb again, and I believe it was because of her kindness that God was pleased).

I knew that would be the last time we would see the beach because the rapture would happen. This was last Feb. I was before the Lord recently because I sooo long for that beach.

It is hard to not want to pray again, but I know His Spirit says no that we are leaving. He clearly said to me, "I want you to now think of Me as your beach and ocean, come to Me for that peace and rest".

I know that I know that I know we are leaving soon, very, very soon. We are still praying for that husband to get saved.

But this sort of story really just turns God into an ATM. There were people at the pentecostal in HK like this. One lady lent me a book, and then told me a long long story about how she'd had a big financial problem, and she'd prayed and prayed, and then the guy she previously lent the book to had returned the book, and inside the book was an envelope with a note of thanks and a HK$500 note (around US$65), solving her short-term problem.

She had a hundred of these stories but this was a most blatant hint, IMHO, that I should follow suit and return the book with a gift. Obviously she didn't pray hard enough in my case cos I accidentally gave the book to the charity shop when I had a big clear out…. ooops, sorry lady.

I guess I should make right on that, it was a year ago now. Bad James73, bad!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by james73

But this sort of story really just turns God into an ATM. There were people at the pentecostal in HK like this. ....... Bad James73, bad!

Yes James! BAD!

You read wayyyyyyy too much into this fellow's testimony! For the record, I have heard numerous 'testimonies' of people being set free from debt because they started to 'tithe', even though they were so deep in debt.

Well... it did not work for me. I ended up more in debt ! LOL! That said, if the Holy Spirit prompts me to give, I GIVE. But I don't listen to man quoting scriptures telling me I am robbing from God so that I will feel guilty if I don't give to their agenda of building their megachurch business in the name of 'God'.

This was a one time Supernatural Favor he experienced from our Heavenly Father. This man has been through a lot of hardships with his family and God gave him a 'break'. He met a man on the beach and found FAVOR in his eyes.

The OT has account after account on the FAVOR of God.

Let me tell you about the FAVOR of GOD I was blessed with this past year.
My body has RA and I have been on disability since 2004. The company I worked for has/had a great disability policy which included a great health insurance policy. My meds are very expensive.

In August my health insurance was terminated so I don't have health insurance. Medicare won't kick in until July of this year. (I am skipping the details why). Talk about PRAYING !!! You all have no idea of the excruciating PAIN my body goes through w/o the meds !!! I put all my TRUST in the LORD asking HIM to grant me supernatural FAVOR or better yet HEAL my body once & for all !! (The Lord has not manifested my healing yet btw)

So before my insurance was cancelled, I got a 3 month refill on my meds. I asked the front desk how much the office visits would be since I was going to pay out of pocket from now on. Because I am an existing patient (client) my cost would be 50.00 a visit. I can handle that as I go every 2-3 months.

On my next visit in September, I was prepared to pay the 50.00 cost but was told I had a credit and there was no cost to my visit.

When I spoke w/my doctor, explaining my dilemma, he told me he had been planning to get me off the meds I had been on and put me on new ones, as we had discussed previously. He told me "I AM in charge here...with a big grin) Then he told me the meds he was putting me on were going to be free of charge for an entire year !!! I simply had to fill out some paperwork !!! GOD bless my doctor!!!!! Did I merit the Favor of God? yes & no. Yes because I am God's daughter and He loves me & a Good, Loving Father takes care of His kids, even through hardships. No because I did not 'work' to be granted Favor. I surrendered my dilemma and asked God to help me.

The POINT in sharing the guy's testimony had to do with God's LOVE.

The LSM does not experience this kind of LOVE as a whole. If you are not an LSM committed soldier to Lee's agenda, you're left out in the cold.

And the people who are struggling to leave have very little Faith in God's Love because it has been squashed out of them. So they don't even know how to ask for God's Love to shower them...much less His Favor.

Blessings,
Carol

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by james73

But this sort of story really just turns God into an ATM. There were people at the pentecostal in HK like this. One lady lent me a book, and then told me a long long story about how she'd had a big financial problem, and she'd prayed and prayed, and then the guy she previously lent the book to had returned the book, and inside the book was an envelope with a note of thanks and a HK$500 note (around US$65), solving her short-term problem.

She had a hundred of these stories but this was a most blatant hint, IMHO, that I should follow suit and return the book with a gift. Obviously she didn't pray hard enough in my case cos I accidentally gave the book to the charity shop when I had a big clear out…. ooops, sorry lady.

I guess I should make right on that, it was a year ago now. Bad James73, bad!

The difference between those two stories is one is based on faith while the other is based on works.

In Carol's story the woman asks God to provide for her need out of faith by not communicating her needs to the giver. She is trusting in the unseen promise of God to provide for her.

In your story, the woman is communicating her need for money to you in the context of giving a book. She is trusting in her own work (whereby she requested you for money implicitly) to provide for her and not wholly on what God can do in the unseen realm.

Galatians 5:11
“The righteous shall live by faith.”

In one sense I envy those with no money because they have many more opportunities to live by faith. Yet I also have many experiences where God delivered on a need I asked for that couldn't have been a coincidence.

My favorite biography in this regard is that of Sadhu Sundar Singh, a sikh in India who fully gave his life to Jesus at 14. After his conversion his father tried to poison him, but he hung on to God's promise in Mark 16:18 and survived to the amazement of the doctor (who later accepted Jesus because of this miracle). Sadhu lived a life that followed Jesus' commands literally by selling everything he had and traveled the world preaching the Gospel, especially in Tibet where you could be murdered for preaching. During his travels he brought no money with him but only his clothes and a blanket, yet God provided for his every need as Jesus promised he would.

Mark 6:8
He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts—

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Brother, now you are starting to think, which makes you useless for the 'building up'.

Looking back at my experience, it seemed as if "purity" was kind of positional: if you did whatever the local church leadership dictated, that was pure.

And purity from them was a moving target.

When I started this thread, my hypothesis was that the Spirit of God did move in history, especially during times of religious corruption and hypocrisy, to initiate something afresh based on the desire for "purity," but how that eventually deteriorated into a misguided pathway for the leaders to walk. I had in mind Luther, Darby, and Lee, because I am more familiar with them.

Luther, who supposedly started the "recovery," thus becoming the first so-called MOTA, became keenly aware of the corruption in the priesthood around him. Being intensely sincere for the "purity" of religion, he went so far as to visit the Vatican in Rome, thinking that surely the "purity" he so longed for would be found among those closest to the "Holy See." Needless to say, the shock he encountered was rudely awakening. Thus his goal was to reform the mother church to her original state.

Fast forward his life, and we find brother Martin so entrenched in this same goal, that "love" for the brethren has been severely compromised. He and the Swiss leader Zwingli agreed on 14-1/2 of 15 critical items, yet he refused to offer the Swiss brothers the right arm of fellowship. His disdain for the Jews and the Anabaptists also reflects this point succinctly -- if your original goal is purity of the church, and you continue this path rigidly, you will end up loving none but your own.

John Darby also began with the lofty ideals of all brothers, without hierarchy, as a holy priesthood to God, yet, in his very core of thought, as evidenced by his first tract, he felt the unity of the believers was based on the common judgment of evil -- "if we all agree what is evil, then we will be one." Though he had an intense desire to serve the Lord in new found "purity," he imposed his will upon all the assemblies, and they were forced to judge all things as he did. Exclusivism at its very core is a judgment of evil based on the views of the leader.

History tells us that the "lynching" of Benjamen Newton, the leader of the Plymouth assembly, and George Muller, the leader of the Bristol assembly and founder of the orphanages, was based on a struggle for power and control by John Darby. Both Newton and Muller were both rivals that had to be eliminated, but the smokescreen of Brethren "purity," clouded the minds of Darby and his followers. Once Darby decided to judge these "evils," men like George Wigram wrote scathing tracts to destroy their reputations and warn all the other assemblies. What began as a move of the Spirit to return to church "purity" and simplicity of worship concluded as a narrow, mean-spirited, "loveless" society of brothers, with a succession of MOTAs on top.

Does any of this sound familiar?

.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

During the God Ordained way training here in the west coast, they had us read a book called "Fellowship Concerning the Urgent Need of the Vital Groups". Just quickly browsing through this book has caused me a little PTSD, I wonder what it will do for those of you who were more invested in the movement.

The main premise of this book is that the stagnant growth of the "Lord's Recovery" can be pinned on the "oldness" of the saints. WLee's solution was to establish a new way via the "Vital Groups". The book shamelessly encourages marginalizing "old" members ...

bearbear, some have rightly connected this with Mao's "Red Guards."

I saw precious brothers "who loved the ministry" tossed under the bus by those who were "absolute for the ministry."

They were regularly condemned for being old, slow, sluggish, set, settled, occupied "moo cows." How discouraging!

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Luther, who supposedly started the recovery and thus became the first so-called MOTA...

Ohio, Martin Luther was a sinner saved by grace, no better or worse than the rest of us. PLEASE STOP REPEATING LEE'S STORY OF LUTHER "STARTING THE RECOVERY". Luther NEVER said or even insinuated this and NEVER called himself a MOTA. In fact, he called himself a snow-covered piece of sh*t (real German translation). The MOTA thing was entirely Lee's fabricated mythology. If I am wrong, quote Luther. Don't quote Lee on Luther and attribute the quote to him. It's dishonest and unfair and misleading to those still stuck in the "recovery mindset", by giving credence to Lee's lies.

Sorry for yelling brother.

Ray

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Ohio, Martin Luther was a sinner saved by grace, no better or worse than the rest of us. PLEASE STOP REPEATING LEE'S STORY OF LUTHER "STARTING THE RECOVERY". Luther NEVER said or even insinuated this and NEVER called himself a MOTA. In fact, he called himself a snow-covered piece of sh*t (real German translation). The MOTA thing was entirely Lee's fabricated mythology. If I am wrong, quote Luther. Don't quote Lee on Luther and attribute the quote to him. It's dishonest and unfair and misleading to those still stuck in the "recovery mindset", by giving credence to Lee's lies.

Sorry for yelling brother.

Ray

Sorry NFNL, but I said "supposedly," and I AM communicating with former LC members who speak my slang. And I think the MOTA thing started with Nee. I am not giving credence to anyone's lies.

and .... IT'S MY THREAD AND I CAN WRITE WHAT I WANT TO.

Sorry for yelling bro.

[james73]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When I started this thread, my hypothesis was that the Spirit of God did move in history, especially during times of religious corruption and hypocrisy, to initiate something afresh based on the desire for "purity," but how that eventually deteriorated into a misguided pathway for the leaders to walk. I had in mind Luther, Darby, and Lee, because I am more familiar with them.

Just putting it out there, but what about Jesus? Everything you say there points to Jesus: Spirit of God, religious corruption and hypocrisy, something afresh, purity, eventually deteriorating into a misguided pathway. JC quite nicely proves your hypothesis correct, in some respects.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

Just putting it out there, but what about Jesus? Everything you say there points to Jesus: Spirit of God, religious corruption and hypocrisy, something afresh, purity, eventually deteriorating into a misguided pathway. JC quite nicely proves your hypothesis correct, in some respects.

What do you mean "what about Jesus?" I'm not understanding your comments.

[james73]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What do you mean "what about Jesus?" I'm not understanding your comments.

I meant, does Jesus not fit your hypothesis very well too? You wrote:

When I started this thread, my hypothesis was that the Spirit of God did move in history, especially during times of religious corruption and hypocrisy, to initiate something afresh based on the desire for "purity," but how that eventually deteriorated into a misguided pathway for the leaders to walk. I had in mind Luther, Darby, and Lee, because I am more familiar with them.

When I read what you wrote there, I had in mind Jesus, not Luther, Darby or Lee. That's what I meant by "what about Jesus?". Jesus seemed to fit what you wrote perfectly.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by james73

When I read what you wrote there, I had in mind Jesus, not Luther, Darby or Lee. That's what I meant by "what about Jesus?". Jesus seemed to fit what you wrote perfectly.

The way Jesus took never deteriorated over time to display exclusive judgmentalism. He lived and walked by the Father in the way of love. Never once do we see Jesus struggling with others in order to dominate or lord it over them. He came to serve and to lay down His life for us. He would leave the 99 in order to find the lost one.

[awareness]

Purity can't be found or achieved. And love covers a multitude of impurities. If you have to be pure for me to love you then I will never be able to love you. God loves sinners, Jesus died for them. And when we love our neighbors we're loving sinners ... or impure ones.

Brotherly love is the only way to live with each other without killing each other.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Purity can't be found or achieved. And love covers a multitude of impurities. If you have to be pure for me to love you then I will never be able to love you. God loves sinners, Jesus died for them. And when we love our neighbors we're loving sinners ... or impure ones.

Brotherly love is the only way to live with each other without killing each other.

We'll never be perfected in the flesh, but I believe there is an expectation in scripture for us to grow in holiness. We should encourage each other to do so in a non-judgmental way via love and not criticism.

If a brother, especially one in a position of responsibility, grows in wickedness and does not turn from his sin when asked to repent, he is probably not a brother. Think of when John Ingalls et. al confronted Witness Lee and the honored Minister of the Age didn't repent. WLee simply became more evil and hard of heart culminating in his writing of Fermentation of the Present Rebellion which was apparently a book of lies and unwarranted character assassinations.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

Hebrews 12:14
Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Galatians 6:1
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

2 Thessalonians 3:15
Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

1 Timothy 5:20
As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Purity can't be found or achieved.

Of course. How pure is really pure? Dove soap only made it to 99.44% pure.

But when Tetzel was selling indulgences for salvation, Luther knew that the "purity" of God's people on earth was being corrupted. So my point in starting this thread was to point out how "purity" (perhaps you have a better word?) often was used to initiate positive change in the church, but this causation can eventually lead to their downfall.

No church or ministry can survive long or well by embarking on a negative mission. Witness Lee built the Recovery in the US based on how bad the rest of Christianity was. This was not readily apparent in the early days, but eventually it became undeniable. With all his "weapons" constantly aimed at the rest of Christianity, it became so easy to point them at "concerned" members within the Recovery, and that seems to be one the critical constituents of exclusivism.

[james73]

Originally Posted by bearbear

We should encourage each other to do so in a non-judgmental way via love and not criticism.

If a brother, especially one in a position of responsibility, grows in wickedness and does not turn from his sin when asked to repent, he is probably not a brother.

This is tricky ground… "He is probably not a brother" is the birthplace of dogma and division, since the whole concept of wickedness is subjective. The Jews thought Jesus wicked; they even backed it up biblically. Their "purity" killed Jesus. You might say they were wrong, but Jesus certainly didn't fight the charges, nor did he repent. Instead, he forgave those who killed him. He worked on his own heart rather than worrying about the "salvation" of others or the purity of the church. He died practicing love, not preaching hell.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by james73

This is tricky ground… "He is probably not a brother" is the birthplace of dogma and division, since the whole concept of wickedness is subjective. The Jews thought Jesus wicked; they even backed it up biblically. Their "purity" killed Jesus. You might say they were wrong, but Jesus certainly didn't fight the charges, nor did he repent. Instead, he forgave those who killed him. He worked on his own heart rather than worrying about the "salvation" of others or the purity of the church. He died practicing love, not preaching hell.

Jesus showed mercy to sinners but readily judged the teachers of the law who were leading people astray with hypocrisy and false teaching. Teachers have to be held to a higher standard because they oversee other's souls.

Paul tells the church to judge their own in 1 Cor 5:12-13. Jesus called sinners to repentance in Luke 13 and elsewhere in the gospels. There's nothing wrong with judging, you just have to do it rightly and out of love. The problem with the Pharisees was they judged wrongly based on their own preconceptions and not by the Spirit of God.

But before we go pointing fingers we must first give the brother or sister the benefit of the doubt and love on them and see their side of the story which is also something I've learned. I think the brothers who approached Witness Lee were more than generous in this regard. The results of their efforts were that they were led like sheep to slaughter. A sign of a false shepherd is that they are willing to kill their own sheep to save their own lives. Jesus did the opposite by laying down his life for his sheep.

John 7:23
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matthew 18:17 ESV)