The "Lord's Recovery": A Christian Perspective

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

This is from a video I enjoyed, by Doug Perry of Fellowship of the Martyrs. In it, he very carefully offers counsel to the Saints regarding this denomination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od9SKmvfsoc

More from and about Doug Perry at www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com


...Rather than disect this brother, let me ask those who come here to rather hear what he has to say on this particular topic - and to bring his words before God in prayer and ask for the discernment required to know whether he speaks true or false.

In Peace with our Father God, Christ, the Spirit and the Church.

NeitherFirstnorLast

[OBW]

Sorry, but unimpressed. For starters, this guy is basing upon the premise that the Nee underpinnings were actually right. He speaks of Nee's city-church as simply being scripturally correct, in so many words. So even if he disagrees with Lee, he is thinking in terms of an alternative to Lee under the guidelines of Nee.

That is not the argument that I make. And my argument is that those who meet in the LRC should not meet together, but that they are not special relative to any other Christian assembly for doing so. And as long as they hold to many of Lee's (and Nee's) poor theology, they are hamstringing their experience. It does not make them unChristian or heretical. It just makes their reality far from their claim.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by OBW

Sorry, but unimpressed... That is not the argument that I make.

Perhaps he doesn't make the argument that you make; he actually doesn't argue at all. Rather, what he shares makes a lot of sense. He also had the discernment to see where LSM had erred - and to pick up on it immediately. He shared what he shared for the sake of those who attend, and for those who may consider attending.

Although this was on a different thread, I want to say that Steve Amato did the same - shared for the sake of those who attend and those who might consider joining. I want to note that there again it was a regular member of the forum, and not a visiting lurker, who was most offended by what that brother shared.

I am disappointed too.

[TLFisher]

This morning while I was working, I listened to what Doug had to share. To some extent, Doug touched upon what Witness Lee exhorted at the 1997 Chinese New Year Conference. As for the City Church concept, as idealisitic as it seems what seems impossible to man is possible by God.
Most of Doug's speaking did make sense.

[OBW]

I think that one of the things that I am unimpressed about is that I find no meaningful relationship between the guy in the video and the LRC, and then find nothing about him or his organization that gives him much more than the amount of weight that any of us get here on the internet — a place where anyone with a keyboard and an key can publish. If what is essentially an outsider is going to speak on the LRC, he needs to provide reasonable credentials. And when he seems to speak as if supporting what one might call "competition" for doing Nee right, his credibility goes down even more.

Now if Stephen Kuang (sp?) were to finally weigh-in on some of the self-made claims of Lee, I would listen because he is someone who, while following the premises of Nee, has not tried to compete with Lee and the LRC, but simply done what he has done without any reference to them.

I mean, if "Lioncubseal" (in the other forum, I think) and his alleged "Jesus come in the flesh," INES, were to make a video that said some of the same things, would you listen just because there is an organization name behind it?

Of course, I probably am revealing something about myself in this. I am much more impressed with religious teachers who are focused on Christians living this life in a fully righteous manner, and less impressed with those who are focused on the extremes — the adjectivized Christians, or those with some kind of superlative put before their name; ignoring the present and panting after the end times (and being of no current use); or those who are overly focused on "spiritual" things and ignore regular living. And those who are focused on how to figure out some kind of "the way" church that marginalizes other assemblies that do not meet their criteria. Anyone trying to create some kind of city-church is that for me. The "city-church" is something of impracticality unless your city is very small. It is strictly "universal" and not practical.

[OBW]

Oh. BTW. I didn't say that the guy in the video said bad or wrong things. I just said that there was nothing that impressed me. While I must admit that I gave up on listening straight through at some point and began to skip forward trying to find find something interesting, I never did hear anything that I would characterize as much more than a repetition of things others have said. In other words, is there anything unique or different in this? Or is it just someone repeating what others have said (even if correctly) that he has no real personal knowledge about? I don't need someone else who wasn't there or hasn't really done some genuine homework telling me about the LRC. They tend to miss the real points when they do.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

I just said that there was nothing that impressed me. I don't need someone else who wasn't there or hasn't really done some genuine homework telling me about the LRC. They tend to miss the real points when they do.

OBW, from my perspective I wasn't impressed either. I was thankful for his spirit of love. Doug wasn't spiteful or malicious in his speaking. Just being honest in love.
If I was to listen again and numerate each point that concurred with my spirit, it would be somewhere between 10-20 points. In short bulk of Doug's commentary was in sync with my spirit.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

This is from a video I enjoyed, by Doug Perry of Fellowship of the Martyrs. In it, he very carefully offers counsel to the Saints regarding this denomination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od9SKmvfsoc

More from and about Doug Perry at www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com


...Rather than dissect this brother, let me ask those who come here to rather hear what he has to say on this particular topic - and to bring his words before God in prayer and ask for the discernment required to know whether he speaks true or false.

In Peace with our Father God, Christ, the Spirit and the Church.

NeitherFirstnorLast

I was just revisiting this old video on YouTube, and I found that very shortly after I initially posted it here at LCD, it began to get responses from current members of LSM's churches. One of these responses became the subject of another video. I would invite members and guests to view that response to Doug's video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REdnO59vZqQ

PS: For sake of context, it might be best to watch (if you haven't already) the video that garnered this response (in the quote above).

[MacDuff]

NeitherFirstnorLast

I remember now listening to Perry’s original video a short time ago. It was the only anti-Recovery video I saw on YouTube at the time. He was pretty straightforward, lenient, and typically Evangelical Protestant in that video. But what Perry writes under the second video concerns me. He seems to be judging the whole LC by responses that may not be so typical of the LC itself. Funny I didn't run into that second video at the time, seeing as it was done about the same time.

This guy he says responded to him, and he calls it hate mail, I hope isn’t typical LC, whatever country he was from. When I visited the LC a few months ago, in LA CA USA, I met no one like this individual. If they disagreed with what you said, or if you brought up something they could take as opposition, they would just say “Oh Lord Jesus” and the discussion on that particular topic ended. And we would just go on discussing something we agreed upon. Nothing like what this guy was spouting. Perry was being too kind in not revealing the name of this man. He needs to be dealt with by his own people. If possible. This is a very bad witness for the LC as a whole. It could be that he is an example of the local church he is attending. And if so, that is not only a very sick man, but a very sick congregation, and they have nothing at all to do with the Jesus they think they are calling upon.

I have to say that I feel very blessed to have experienced in Elden Hall back in the 70’s, none of this kind of sick bias. Reminds me of Christians who call homosexuals faggots and are nothing but derogatory against them. The sin of homosexuality is no different than the sin of any Christian and such Christians act as if they are perfect and without sin. I’ve met “sinless” Christians and I have nothing to do with them out here in real life. Because I can easily discern that one of their most obvious sins is that they are lying to themselves.

MacDuff

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Hello MacDuff!

Just wanted to address some of your comments here:

Originally Posted by MacDuff

He seems to be judging the whole LC by responses that may not be so typical of the LC itself... This guy he says responded to him, and he calls it hate mail, I hope isn’t typical LC, whatever country he was from. When I visited the LC a few months ago, in LA CA USA, I met no one like this individual. If they disagreed with what you said, or if you brought up something they could take as opposition, they would just say “Oh Lord Jesus” and the discussion on that particular topic ended. And we would just go on discussing something we agreed upon. Nothing like what this guy was spouting.

I don't know - I mean, I don't know if this fellow who addressed Doug is really so atypical of an LSM LCer. I agree, there is a lot of "Oh Lord Jesus" if you try to bring up a topic that is controversial with them in person, but from what I've read on the web, there is a good number of LSM responders out there who aren't ashamed to put "pen to paper" as it were, and let their detractors have it with both barrels... and why shouldn't they? They see their current leadership (Blendeds) do it, and they in turn learned it from Witness Lee himself.

I've noticed that many of the posters here have much deeper roots and longer (or just older) histories with the LC than I do. I may be wrong, but I think I am one of the most recent ex-LSM members on here (having only met with the LC around 2008 until early 2011.) The LC as I know it is not the LC as most folks around here knew it back in the day.... And again, why should it be? Witness Lee specifically, and the organization on Ball Road after him, worked hard to really "condense" (is that the right word?) the membership - squeeze out the marginal members, the members who might question Lee's authority or the authority of those whom he later appointed, and then too they shifted focus from gaining new ones (which, I believe, was/is becoming ever harder and harder for them) to instead focusing their efforts on a more captive audience: The children of current members. Those children get spoon-fed Witness Lee's theology to the exclusion of all else - there is no taste of anything different whatsoever, so who are they to question what they hear? As for the current members who hung on through all the turmoils and strife, I would say that they HAD to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to things they didn't want to hear ( - bravely run away screaming "Oh Lord JESUS!!") - and all that does is harden your heart. I said that I myself quenched the Spirit many times, not wanting to believe that the people I had grown to love with the love of Christ could really be so far off the mark - and I think after a few months I could barely even hear Him anymore. It took Him shaking me up and moving me to a new "locality" to really rock my boat and get me looking around again. Praise the Lord for a sister who was very - 'strong willed' maybe let's say. She exemplified the type of response that Doug's video met here... and she was/is sold out (souled out?) for LSM.

Originally Posted by MacDuff

I have to say that I feel very blessed to have experienced in Elden Hall back in the 70’s, none of this kind of sick bias. Reminds me of Christians who call homosexuals faggots and are nothing but derogatory against them. The sin of homosexuality is no different than the sin of any Christian and such Christians act as if they are perfect and without sin. I’ve met “sinless” Christians and I have nothing to do with them out here in real life. Because I can easily discern that one of their most obvious sins is that they are lying to themselves.

Amen to that, brother. There is not one righteous; no: not one. That's why we all need Him, and not just once but every day.

Ray