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Old 11-26-2017, 07:38 PM   #1
HBJ
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Default RE: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

Unfortunately I see a little bit of LC lingo here. "Soapbox of the Saints". In the LC your standard Christian is referred to as a Saint. But if a Catholic visited this forum they'd be confused. To them a Saint is a holy person who performed miracles. I know I'm being OCD, but shouldn't it say Christian soapbox? ,or something? I may have disagreements with some Catholic theology, but we are not supposed to pull the weeds in case we harm the good plants. We have to let the Lord do the harvesting at the end of time like the bible says. Thanks for letting me (minor) vent!
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Old 11-28-2017, 09:58 AM   #2
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Default RE: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

HBJ has made a very good post on the Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board. Unfortunately, this forum board is not set up to appear in the "Recent Threads" area, and this setting is not easy for me to change so I will simply post it here so others can see and react to HBJ's thoughtful post.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

I think most Catholics know how the term is used in wider Christianity.

Instead I suggest they might struggle with the word 'brother' or brothers.
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Old 11-28-2017, 05:44 PM   #4
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

Quote:
Originally Posted by HBJ View Post
Unfortunately I see a little bit of LC lingo here
Not just LC lingo. Its also brethren lingo and general fundy Christian lingo. Though I don't like using it in daily life, I personally think its scriptural. The Catholic use of the term is incorrect, saints are just Christians.

What I don't like about the LC use of the word 'saints' however is that for most 'Local Church' members, only the LC members are saints. Other Christians are just Christians, or at best believers. I have literally had people tell me stuff like "oh my uncle is a dear believer. Not one of the saints but a precious brother nevertheless" to indicate that so-and-so is not 'in the church'.

But they *are* in the church. Which church are you referring to? I would ask. 'Oh *the* church, the Eph. 5:25 church'. Yeah well your uncle *is* a member of that church, isn't he? And they'd invariably be like 'oh yeah you know what I mean. Practically speaking they're not'. [facepalm]
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Old 11-28-2017, 06:38 PM   #5
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

What is very scriptural is that all believers are going through the process of sanctification. I am less sure that applying the term universally to all believers is scriptural. Paul says we are "called to be saints". Acts 9:41 is also a little strange that it says "saints and widows" or Colossians 1:2 "saints and faithful brethren".

So yes, we are all "sanctified in Christ Jesus" and we are all "called to be saints" but when you refer to all the members of the church as "saints" it suggests a finished work rather than a work in progress.

After all if everyone is a "saint" why does Paul need to exhort us to behave "as becometh saints"?

The NT has many, many references to believers and members of the church as "saints" so it is reasonable that the LC does the same. But that understanding may be simplistic. Kind of like referring to your students as "scholars".
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Old 11-28-2017, 07:18 PM   #6
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

Right. Believers and saints are different. All saints are believers but not all believers are saints. All believers are sanctified in Christ, but not all believers are saints.

If a person in the Recovery visited this forum they might get confused as well, not just a Catholic.
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:56 PM   #7
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

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If a person in the Recovery visited this forum they might get confused as well, not just a Catholic.
That's true--because LC members use the term "saints" almost exclusively to designate members of their group.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:52 AM   #8
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

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Right. Believers and saints are different. All saints are believers but not all believers are saints. All believers are sanctified in Christ, but not all believers are saints.
I understand.

"Saints" have special perks. They can demote others to "believer" status, and then sue them or quarantine them. Regular believers are not permitted to do such things.

It took me 30 years in the system to learn these little nuances.
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:18 AM   #9
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That's true--because LC members use the term "saints" almost exclusively to designate members of their group.
When I first came to the LRC they explained to me that the NT referred to the members of the church as "saints" so they did too. Referring to each other as saint was not meant to distinguish us from other Christians but rather was to return to the pure word of the NT. (That was how it was explained and there is sufficient NT references to make this a credible explanation).

However, the result (whether intended or not) did make a distinction between all the "saints" in the LRC with the "brothers and sisters" in Christianity. WL even went so far as to point out there is no scriptural basis for "sisters", everyone is a "son of God", etc. This seemed to border on the absurd but it may have been done to undermine the legitimacy of referring to "saints" as "brothers and sisters" (i.e. LRC is scriptural, Christianity is not).

But it seems to me that many if not all the references of "saints" that equates them with believers are aspirational. Paul is reminding us that this is the goal. There is no suggestion that the NT teaches that believers automatically become "saints". However, there is a basis to say that just being in the right place "sanctifies" you, and that all believers are going through a process of sanctification. But even Paul doesn't suggest that they have arrived at "sainthood", hence his exhortation to "behave as it becomes saints".
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Old 11-29-2017, 08:59 AM   #10
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

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LC members use the term "saints" almost exclusively to designate members of their group.
Once I visited an LSM/lc church, back when I was still quite active. A Christian brother there, in small talk after the meeting, asked me where I was from and said, "Oh - are there any saints over there" (the LSM/lc had a minor presence in my region).

I looked him right in the eye, said "Yes, thousands of them", and he kind of looked away and said, "You know what I mean", and I stared at him - "No, I don't". I simply couldn't accept that kind of talk.

That was pretty much the end of the conversation. I wasn't going with the flow & he moved on.
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Old 11-29-2017, 01:54 PM   #11
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

Remember believers are sanctified and are being sanctified. The word saint can apply in both these instances so there is nothing untoward in our useage of the term saint for one or the other.Lee did write that all believers are saints so we use the term in that way too according to the context.
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Old 11-29-2017, 04:12 PM   #12
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Remember believers are sanctified and are being sanctified. The word saint can apply in both these instances so there is nothing untoward in our useage of the term saint for one or the other.Lee did write that all believers are saints so we use the term in that way too according to the context.
I know it doesn't much matter what I believe, but I'm good with calling believers saints; although I prefer the terms brothers and sisters because it seems more intimate and family oriented to me. I also like Lee's teaching that we are at the same time sanctified and being sanctified (if I understand his teaching correctly). Objectively, before God the Father I'm sanctified, but subjectively in my life I'm being sanctified daily. We (LC brothers) would say we need be saved every morning! I still believe that. Somewhere awhile back I started a thread listing the "good" things I learned/experienced in the LR. I think all of us who post here probably have more in common as Christian brothers/sisters/saints than we have differences. I remember hearing from others that brother Lee once said something like this to the leading, co-working brothers: "I gave you the keys to the station wagon and you drove it off the pier". Don't know if he really said that, but it suggests that even brother Lee could not control everything that brothers did in his name. I remember the Lord's parable about the wheat and the tares. I think this probably applies to the Lord's Recovery as well; mixed in with the wheat are the tares. Peter's example shows us that we are all capable of speaking the devils words at times. I appreciate that I daily sometimes hourly need forgiveness.
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Old 11-29-2017, 04:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

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Remember believers are sanctified and are being sanctified..
Remember what you just wrote - "No one is good" Remember what Jesus said, "If you, being evil, know to give your children. . ." First you lean one way, then another. As long as you are the MOTA or his delegate, that's fine, though.

But we all do this. That's why we need many counselors. If Lee had received some, his ministry might have been salvaged. But I still hold out hope. God can do anything. "Who, then, can be saved?" Luke 18:26,27
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Old 11-29-2017, 04:45 PM   #14
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Default Re: Soapbox of The Saints Forum Board

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Remember what you just wrote - "No one is good" Remember what Jesus said, "If you, being evil, know to give your children. . ." First you lean one way, then another. As long as you are the MOTA or his delegate, that's fine, though.

But we all do this. That's why we need many counselors. If Lee had received some, his ministry might have been salvaged. But I still hold out hope. God can do anything. "Who, then, can be saved?" Luke 18:26,27
Using the term saint or sanctified in a way which covers both meanings/definitions is what I would call comprehensive and thorough.
Every believer is sanctified in Christ - they are saints.
Not every believer is sanctified in their daily living - if a believer gets drunk and high on drugs for example, you want to still call them a saint? I don't think the word saint is appropriate as they are not sanctified in their living.
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