Does a church need somesthing more than Jesus Christ?

[Evangelical]

To answer ZNP's question


do gatherings of the called out ones need more than Jesus Christ ~ZNP

The bible says, yes. They need elders and governance:

Paul ordered Titus to appoint elders not in every home but in every city (Titus 1:5). God's word is clear.

The first local church in Jerusalem had elders taking care of governance:
Acts 11:30, 15:2, 16:4, 21:18

Obviously Paul thought churches need something more than Jesus Christ.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Evangelical:

Matt 18 teaches that if we have a problem with a brother that cannot be solved with two or three then we can bring it to the church. This is because the church has governance through the elders which the two or three at home do not have.

ZNP wrote:

That is not what it teaches, that is the clever story WL tells about what it teaches.

What it teaches is that 2 or 3 can bind on Earth. They do not need to consult with the church to bind on Earth. However, once they do make that decision they are to "tell it to the church" and what has been bound on Earth "will be what has been bound in Heaven".


A quick look at the biblehub commentaries will show that Lee's interpretation is supported better than ZNP's.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/18-17.htm


Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary agrees with Lee:

Next, If this fail, take two or three to witness how just your complaint is, and how brotherly your spirit in dealing with him. Again, If this fail, bring him before the Church or congregation to which both belong. Lastly, If even this fail, regard him as no longer a brother Christian, but as one "without"—as the Jews did Gentiles and publicans.

Matthew Poole agrees with Lee:


1. Doing it privately, between them and him alone.

2. If that had not its effect, then taking two or three with them.

3. If that also proved ineffectual, then telling it to the church.



Geneva study bible agrees with Lee:

(i) He speaks not of just any policy, but of an ecclesiastical assembly, for he speaks afterward of the power of loosing and binding, which belonged to the Church, and he has regard for the order used in those days, at which time the elders had the judgment of Church matters in their hands, Joh 9:22 12:4216:2, and used casting out of the synagogue for a punishment, as we do now by excommunication.



Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges agrees with Lee:

17. tell it unto the church] The word “church” (Grk. ekklesia) is found only here and ch. Matthew 16:18 in the Gospels. In the former passage the reference to the Christian Church is undoubted. Here either (1) the assembly or congregation of the Jewish synagogue, or rather, (2) the ruling body of the synagogue (collegium presbyterorum, Schleusner) is meant. This must have been the sense of the word to those who were listening to Christ. But what was spoken of the Jewish Church was naturally soon applied to the Christian Church.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To answer ZNP's question


do gatherings of the called out ones need more than Jesus Christ ~ZNP

The bible says, yes. They need elders and governance:

Paul ordered Titus to appoint elders not in every home but in every city (Titus 1:5). God's word is clear.

The first local church in Jerusalem had elders taking care of governance:
Acts 11:30, 15:2, 16:4, 21:18

Obviously Paul thought churches need something more than Jesus Christ.

Do elders and governance need more than Jesus Christ?

What about the Bible? Do the called out ones and elders and governance need more than Jesus? Isn't the Bible more than Jesus?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To answer ZNP's question


do gatherings of the called out ones need more than Jesus Christ ~ZNP

The bible says, yes. They need elders and governance:

Paul ordered Titus to appoint elders not in every home but in every city (Titus 1:5). God's word is clear.

The first local church in Jerusalem had elders taking care of governance:
Acts 11:30, 15:2, 16:4, 21:18

Obviously Paul thought churches need something more than Jesus Christ.

If Jesus isn't enough what makes you think adding a couple of Elders is going to help?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

If Jesus isn't enough what makes you think a couple of Elders is going to help?

EvanG loves to make hay out of the elders being appointed by Paul, Timothy, or Titus "in every city," and I in no way am diminishing these verses or the need for elders.

But ... what we never hear about from LSMers is the "appointment by the Spirit of God" (Acts 20.28) or brothers being "well attested by the saints." (Acts 16.2)

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

EvanG loves to make hay out of the elders being appointed by Paul, Timothy, or Titus "in every city," and I in no way am diminishing these verses or the need for elders.

But ... what we never hear about from LSMers is the "appointment by the Spirit of God" (Acts 20.28) or brothers being "well attested by the saints." (Acts 16.2)

They used to teach the all inclusive Christ. Now they're saying Jesus is not enough; the church needs something more. Times have changed in the local church movement which isn't a movement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

They used to teach the all inclusive Christ. Now they're saying Jesus is not enough; the church needs something more. Times have changed in the local church movement which isn't a movement.

Yeah? They used to teach that the church don't need seminaries, buildings, altars, pulpits, pastors, signboards, traditions, headquarters, schools, etc.

Now look at what they got!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

If Jesus isn't enough what makes you think adding a couple of Elders is going to help?

Explain what you mean by "if Jesus isn't enough". For what?

If Jesus was enough for the church why did he appoint apostles, elders, teachers, evangelists etc?

Jesus is the head so where is the body?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Explain what you mean by "if Jesus isn't enough". For what?

If Jesus was enough for the church why did he appoint apostles, elders, teachers, evangelists etc?

Jesus is the head so where is the body?

Jesus did appoint apostles. I don't see him appointing elders. The chief priests and elders of the people plotted against Jesus to put Him to death. Matthew 27:1 The elders of the church were the beginning of the clergy-laity system and we know how that went. Likewise in my experience, an "local church" elder took advantage of the common saints to make himself comfortable and affluent. The notion of the church as an organization has not really served the Kingdom of God as Jesus conceived of it. Historically attributed to Paul the Apostle, the epistle to Titus is now considered by most scholars to have been written by someone else. http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Paul-Disputed.htm

In the case of the Local Church Movement of Witness Lee, your task is to 1) to present evidence showing that most scholars are wrong and 2) demonstrate that Witness Lee was a true Apostle of Christ with the authority of appointing elders or delegating that authority to others. Otherwise, he can be your apostle if that's what you want but there's no reason why the rest of us should share your unsupported choice.

By the way, Witness Lee's idea of the "Blended Brothers" replacing the Minister of the Age after he had declared the latter to be the New Testament principle of the present age is a laughable contradiction which constitutes a hurdle to any notion of apostolic authority you or the LSM might present. If they don't want to see Lee's Movement relegated to the ash heap of history, LSM should admit that Lee made a mistake on that point. It's really up to a charismatic leader to step up, put an end to the blended brother baloney and declare himself to be the new MOTA. Until then your organization is just treading water as far as any appeal to New Testament legitimacy goes, IMHO

[awareness]

It's my own personal experience that the elders need something more than Jesus, or maybe more of Jesus.

In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale we had a rough and tough, hard drinking hard fighting brother that was changed when he met the Lord. Needless to say he was rough around the edges.

I was close to him. He was working for another brother that had a windows and doors locksmith business.

He caught him cheating his customers and told me about it. It continued happening until George (I'll call him) took it to the elders.

So the elders called us together to determine the truth. Danny (I'll call him) was a burning brother, giving wonderful testimonies. George didn't have that finesse. The elders got all of the testimonies from us, and then prayed.

And they chose Danny as the one telling the truth. It was obvious to me then and there ; the elders were not in touch with the Lord.

Danny eventually got busted stealing from parking meters. He went to jail, where he hung himself.

Jesus certainly was not enough for those elders. They needed something more ; like more than the leader (apostle) Witness Lee, who chose the elders, not based upon true spirituality and growth, but rather by how loyal they were to him.

Witness Lee certainly had more than Jesus. He had megalomania ... and was deluded as to who he was.

If the church needs more than Jesus, may it not be delusions. If so, there's always psychotropics.

And the lead elder, who wasn't in touch with the Lord, and who gave me the boot -- because he had delusions, and who gave me a neurotic ultimatum, to say the least -- sure could have used more than Jesus. He needed psychotropics.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's my own personal experience that the elders need something more than Jesus, or maybe more of Jesus.

So it isn't that they need something more than Jesus, but rather they need more of Jesus. I concur.

Originally Posted by awareness

In the c. in Ft. Lauderdale we had a rough and tough, hard drinking hard fighting brother that was changed when he met the Lord. Needless to say he was rough around the edges.

I was close to him. He was working for another brother that had a windows and doors locksmith business.

He caught him cheating his customers and told me about it. It continued happening until George (I'll call him) took it to the elders.

So the elders called us together to determine the truth. Danny (I'll call him) was a burning brother, giving wonderful testimonies. George didn't have that finesse. The elders got all of the testimonies from us, and then prayed.

And they chose Danny as the one telling the truth. It was obvious to me then and there ; the elders were not in touch with the Lord.

Danny eventually got busted stealing from parking meters. He went to jail, where he hung himself.

Jesus certainly was not enough for those elders. They needed something more ; like more than the leader (apostle) Witness Lee, who chose the elders, not based upon true spirituality and growth, but rather by how loyal they were to him.

Witness Lee certainly had more than Jesus. He had megalomania ... and was deluded as to who he was.

If the church needs more than Jesus, may it not be delusions. If so, there's always psychotropics.

And the lead elder, who wasn't in touch with the Lord, and who gave me the boot -- because he had delusions, and who gave me a neurotic ultimatum, to say the least -- sure could have used more than Jesus. He needed psychotropics.

So needing more than Jesus indicates a need for psychotropic drugs. Again, I'll agree with that.

"The Lord's Recovery Sect" we offer more than Just Jesus*

*Warning, psychotropic drugs may be required to deal with the delusions.

Wasn't Laodicea delusional?

[Evangelical]

To say that "Jesus is all we need" sounds spiritual but it's not practical. Only those who have no experience in practical church life could say such a thing. Even Jesus Himself did not think that all He needed was Himself - he decided to start the church.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To say that "Jesus is all we need" sounds spiritual but it's not practical. Only those who have no experience in practical church life could say such a thing. Even Jesus Himself did not think that all He needed was Himself - he decided to start the church.

And some gratitude the church showed back. Jesus is all we need isn't practical, even Jesus needed more, and started the church, that needs more than him.

But where did Jesus ever say such a thing?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by awareness

And some gratitude the church showed back. Jesus is all we need isn't practical, even Jesus needed more, and started the church, that needs more than him.

But where did Jesus ever say such a thing?

Paul said it in the many times he referred to Jesus as the head and the church as the body. Obviously a head needs a body. So just a head (Jesus) is not enough.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Paul said it in the many times he referred to Jesus as the head and the church as the body. Obviously a head needs a body. So just a head (Jesus) is not enough.

Good answer EvanG. Jesus never said anything like that. Paul did.

And so the head has a body, and the body has a head. Sounds like enough to me.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To say that "Jesus is all we need" sounds spiritual but it's not practical. Only those who have no experience in practical church life could say such a thing. Even Jesus Himself did not think that all He needed was Himself - he decided to start the church.

Right. The spiritual teaching of the so-called MOTA is just so much baloney. What counts is the power structure. If you want to know what's going on follow the money and see where it flows. That's where the power is.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right. The spiritual teaching of the so-called MOTA is just so much baloney. What counts is the power structure. If you want to know what's going on follow the money and see where it flows. That's where the power is.

That's another thing I personally encountered from Mel Porter, the elder that gave me the boot.

I came into some money. Word got out to Mel Porter, the lead elder, and suddenly I became his buddy. He bought me lunch. And told me that brothers put money in the collection box, in an envelope with his name on it, and checks written out to him.

Like the devil on the mountain with Jesus, he was tempting me. He was promising me all the kingdoms in Lees' Recovery. I could become something, someone, in The Recovery. Clearly we needed something more than Jesus.

We needed money ... and positions ... and hierarchy ... with the authority of God at the top.

And incidentally, oddly, on the ride, when we were talking, he told me that he believed in a real fiery hell.

That's funny. It didn't stop him from lusting after mammon ... and trying to scam me out of it.

Witness Lee chose Mel Porter to be the lead elder in the Church in Ft. Lauderdale Florida. I guess larceny attracts larceny ; birds of a feather.