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Old 08-20-2019, 01:51 PM   #1
Raptor
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Default Pray-Reading is Scriptural

ZNPaaneah started a thread about pray-reading as documented in the book, “Lord Thou Saidst…” I really encourage you to get that book, like ZNP wrote, “This book is very strong biblical and historical evidence to support the practice of pray reading the word of God”. In my experience, by pray-reading you turn the logos into rhema in your spirit and you offer rhema to God in the Spirit. I have found 15 different articles/videos/books by non Local Church believers talking and teaching about pray-reading. I will be posting the links with samples if anybody is interested.

As far as the Local Church practice of pray-reading: if the term “pray-read” stumbles you because you believe or experienced that the way the Local Church teaches and practices pray-reading is wrong, I encourage you to take off your Local Church glasses and consider pray-reading for what it is: reading the Word prayerfully and praying using the Word. So don´t throw out pray-reading itself.

The Lord Jesus encountered some very distorted practices by the Pharisees, for example the way they prayed and the way they handled the scriptures, but He did not throw out prayer and the word. Rather, He pointed out their mistakes and then taught the proper way to pray and handle the scriptures. If you think the Local Churches teaching and practice about pray-reading is wrong, find the main points in their publications about pray-reading and point out the mistakes. Talk about how in your experience their practice of pray-reading is wrong. But don´t throw out scriptural and healthy pray-reading. The Recovery does not have the copyright, monopoly or ownership over pray-reading.
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Old 08-20-2019, 05:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Pray-reading is scriptural

I have not had time to post much but I frequently read the posts. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments suffice to say.

I want to pipe in for a few minutes here and then again in another thread. So I too was taught to 'pray read' the scriptures when I first got saved and came into the LC back in 1975.

'Pray reading' helped me retain the scriptures. To God be all the Glory for what I am going to write next. People often tell me how amazed they are that I know so many scriptures. ( of course, I have written countless of scriptures on index cards and through out the day I speak the scriptures into me.)

At bible studies and prayer times I often pray the scriptures. So my prayer life is founded on pray reading. And I am forever grateful I was taught to 'pray read'. In fact, when I was taking a college class I used the formula to study a few times!! It actually helped me retain my notes. no joke!! But I did not keep it up.

Fast forward, I do not 'pray read' as I was taught in the LC but I do prayerfully read and meditate on God's Word.

I often pray the first part of Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword,

My prayer goes like this: Thank You Father, that Your Word, Jesus is living in me. Your Word is active, powerful, operating in my spirit and soul through Your Precious Holy Spirit

Another scripture I often pray is Romans 12:1 present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind,

My prayer (which also variates) goes something like this: Father. I present my entire being to You, spirit, soul and body as a living and holy sacrifice acceptable to YOU washed and cleansed in the Precious Blood of Jesus. Dear Jesus continue to transform me by renewing my mind purifying my thoughts and desires. Change my tastebuds so I hate what You hate and Love what You Love. Amen.

When I wake up first thing I say is 'This is the day YOU have made. I rejoice and am glad in it.' etc..

In recent years, I noticed Paul, John and Peter always start or end their letters Praising, Worshipping, Blessing, Honoring and Thanking God. Same observation with the Psalms. So I began following their pattern.

One of our all time scriptures we all know or think we do is Phillipians 4:6-7.

One day I left my pocketbook at the grocery store. When I realized it on my way home, I panicked and began praying fervently with 'fear' I had lost it for good etc... Suddenly Philippians 4:6-7 came to mind. I then told the Lord: LORD. You tell me not to be anxious, not to fear. Therefore even though I am fearful, I am surrendering my anxiety and fear to You. I pray and ask You place a hedge of protection around me and my pocketbook. But whatever happens, happens and I trust YOU to give me the Wisdom I need to take care of this matter.

When I arrived at the store, the manager gave me my pocketbook with everything in tact.

After years and years of meditating on Philippians 4:6-7, those scriptures changed my life..

This is just a part of my testimony regarding 'pray reading' and how God has honored my 'pray reading'.

Blessings to all.

Carol
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Old 08-20-2019, 09:14 PM   #3
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I agree with you two and have similar experiences.
Mindless repeating of scripture .... dropped. Picking up the sword of the Spirit which is The Word of God by means of all prayer and petition... retained with joy!
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:35 AM   #4
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examples of other non-LC believers sharing/teaching about pray-reading. (not endorsing any group)

If You Don’t Pray, You Won’t Live – John Piper (video)
https://tinyurl.com/y5bd6pps
Take what you read in the Bible and turn it into prayer….Use the Bible and turn the Bible into prayer. Read, pray; read, pray; read, pray; read, pray as long as you want to or as long as you can.

Pray Reading the Bible - YWAM
https://ywamnashville.org/dts-prep-w...ing-the-bible/
“The Bible becomes my prayer manual. I will come across the promise of a verse like John 6:35. I will turn that verse into prayer. I will say “God, you said that anyone who comes to your Son will experience a fullness and satisfaction in this life. Will you release that promise in my life? Jesus come satisfy my soul, come and meet my desire for fulfillment and exhilaration! Help me to not look for this desire to be fulfilled with worldly things which will never truly satisfy me.” If you haven’t already, wake up before the demands of your day start taking over. If you are not used to spending a lot of time before the Lord take ½ hour and begin pray-reading the Word.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:01 AM   #5
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Default Re: Pray-reading is scriptural

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
As far as the Local Church practice of pray-reading: if the term “pray-read” stumbles you because you believe or experienced that the way the Local Church teaches and practices pray-reading is wrong, I encourage you to take off your Local Church glasses and consider pray-reading for what it is: reading the Word prayerfully and praying using the Word. So don´t throw out pray-reading itself.
Raptor, thanks for pushing this forward.

Initially many LC practices were healthy because they were gleaned from the rest of Christianity.

Then pride crept in and distortions took over ... you know the story.
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:04 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
examples of other non-LC believers sharing/teaching about pray-reading. (not endorsing any group)

If You Don’t Pray, You Won’t Live – John Piper (video)
https://tinyurl.com/y5bd6pps
Take what you read in the Bible and turn it into prayer….Use the Bible and turn the Bible into prayer. Read, pray; read, pray; read, pray; read, pray as long as you want to or as long as you can.

Pray Reading the Bible - YWAM
https://ywamnashville.org/dts-prep-w...ing-the-bible/
“The Bible becomes my prayer manual. I will come across the promise of a verse like John 6:35. I will turn that verse into prayer. I will say “God, you said that anyone who comes to your Son will experience a fullness and satisfaction in this life. Will you release that promise in my life? Jesus come satisfy my soul, come and meet my desire for fulfillment and exhilaration! Help me to not look for this desire to be fulfilled with worldly things which will never truly satisfy me.” If you haven’t already, wake up before the demands of your day start taking over. If you are not used to spending a lot of time before the Lord take ½ hour and begin pray-reading the Word.
Thank you for these references.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:53 AM   #7
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

I am most thankful for praying the word, turning the word into prayer, and just talking to Him with the word. This has become a 2nd nature thing. With the scripture devotional I use each morning (Daily Light), I just take those verses and get them into me, thank Him for what He has done, and/or turn them into little prayers. Very nourishing (aka the eating and drinking Jesus thread)!

In our business we talk about affirmations for people to use to sort of "reprogram their minds." And if I have the freedom with a particular class, I will tell them that scripture is the best "affirmation" of all to say over and over to themselves, to write it down, to tell others, etc.!
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:51 AM   #8
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

examples of other non-LC believers sharing/teaching about pray-reading. (not endorsing any group)

“Pray-Reading” the Scriptures~Matthew
http://www.incensearise.com/blogs/pr...ipturesmatthew
I don’t want to be guilty of reading the word without coming to the Lord while I read the Bible. By coming to Him, I mean connecting with Him, talking to Him while I read the verses. John 5:39-40, what this verse describes is lifeless religion with no connection, no conversation with the Lord in the study of His Holy word. These simple applications of prayer while we read the word are huge. It helps us engage with the Lord and “come to Him”.

DO YOU "PRAY-READ" THE BIBLE? – Joshua Hawkins
http://www.joshuahawkins.com/blog/20...ray-read-bible
It is not enough to simply study the Word, but we must give our heart to God and receive from Him as we read it. We must allow it to create an active dialogue with God - it in itself is the “conversational material” the Lord has given us to interact with Him. We must actually speak the Word back to God and against Satan’s attack on our lives. Many do not speak the Word back to God or against Satan and only speak it to others. Pray-reading is so simple and so powerful that anyone can do it. But at the same time it is so simple that very few actually do it. I can guarantee you that if you put this into practice in your life and do it consistently, your desires will change, your hunger for the Lord will increase, your heart will be alive like never before.

Pray-reading the Bible Paperback – 1998
By Lillie O Rogers
https://www.amazon.com/Pray-reading-.../dp/B0006R4QO8
out of print
HOW TO GET A COPY?
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:55 PM   #9
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
I am most thankful for praying the word, turning the word into prayer, and just talking to Him with the word. This has become a 2nd nature thing. With the scripture devotional I use each morning (Daily Light), I just take those verses and get them into me, thank Him for what He has done, and/or turn them into little prayers. Very nourishing (aka the eating and drinking Jesus thread)!

In our business we talk about affirmations for people to use to sort of "reprogram their minds." And if I have the freedom with a particular class, I will tell them that scripture is the best "affirmation" of all to say over and over to themselves, to write it down, to tell others, etc.!
Pray reading is very powerful, and essential, if done in sincerity, not just mumbling some mindless words. Brother Lee brought it to the forefront during the 70s, but, it has been around for a long time. A well known mystic named Emmet Fox talked about it in one of his books in the 1930s. The Quaker group I met with practiced something similar, on occasion. It's just largely forgotten.
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Old 08-23-2019, 08:19 AM   #10
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

examples of other non-LC believers sharing/teaching about pray-reading. (not endorsing any group)

How to Pray Scripture and Deepen Your Prayer Language – Kathryn Shirey
https://www.kathrynshirey.com/praying-scripture-how-to/
Praying Scripture back to God is a powerful way to pray deep and build your prayer language. What better way to honor our majestic God than to use His own words to praise Him and pray to Him? It’s also a way to dig deeper into scripture while you pray. Let the Spirit lead you in prayer through God’s words, build your prayer vocabulary, and use scripture as your guide for prayer. Praying through scripture has been a game-changer for my prayer life and helps me hear God more clearly. Every time I dive into God's Word in my prayers, I find my prayers become stronger, more expansive, and more connected to God.

Using the Bible to Pray: How to Turn Your Bible Reading Into a Conversation with God – Bethany McIlrath
https://livingbydesign.org/bible-rea...versation-god/
Prayer is a two-way conversation based on listening to God and having a conversation with Him through His Word. The goals of Bible-reading and prayer intertwine—both are ways of connecting with God for the purpose of growing in, serving, and glorifying Him. I’d encourage you to turn to God through His Word and begin praying over His Word as you read it.
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Old 08-23-2019, 09:11 AM   #11
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

In my mind I think it is well established that pray-reading is a good thing - Biblically grounded - that has been practiced by many historically, as a way to talk to God, draw closer to Him and be nourished in spirit.

So what is it exactly that the LC does with this that is off the mark? (it may seem like a rhetorical, but I wonder what others would say)
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:48 AM   #12
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

examples of other non-LC believers sharing/teaching about pray-reading. (not endorsing any group)

10 Ways to Pray the Word of God-Debbie Przybylski, Wesley and Stacey Campbell
https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/pray...rd-of-god.html
I encourage you to start pray-reading the Word of God on a regular basis. You will be amazed at all that God has to say to you from His Word as you dialogue with Him. You will grow in your effectiveness in prayer, as God leads you into thrilling depths and greater heights in your relationship with Him. When we pray-read the Bible, God teaches us in a way that is tailor-made for us personally. The Holy Spirit prays through us and gives us new insights as we pray.

How to Pray-Read the Bible - Benjamin Schäfer
https://yearningheartsjourney.blogsp...rd-of-god.html
One way to significantly increase your time and pleasure with the written Word of God is to start praying it instead of merely reading it. Instead of reading it for information or to fulfill our bible reading plan assignments, we actually take it as God's personal word to us and use it to feed and guide our conversation with Jesus. We take the Word and pray it back to Him. Simply taken, it means having a conversation with God using His Word. This is called "pray-reading" the Word.

The Latent Power of God: Pray-Reading - Armando Rodriguez
https://www.amazon.in/Latent-Power-G.../dp/B00UZFZT88
In the past, it has been my custom to read through the Scripture on a daily basis. I have enjoyed doing so, but when I began to Pray-Read God’s Word, it changed me. As I mingle it with prayer, it has fanned to flame new desires. I have begun to see and hear God more often. My prayers are being answered. I find myself filled with a joy that I had not previously known. The Words of the Bible are being embedded into my thought patterns. I welcome the transformation even though I do not fully understand it. I have discovered a Source of Power that renews, revives, refreshes, fills, comforts, and empowers. This type of prayer has taken the word dull out of my Christian experience and has infused me with peace that surpasses all understanding.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:22 AM   #13
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

Pray-reading is a way to numb the brain.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:30 AM   #14
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

At times, that's what happened in the Local Church of Witness Lee. For some it was a way to "enjoy" and get something from the Word in a way that transcended common mental comprehension. I personally don't think there is much to gain from this kind of practice in a corporate setting, but I think it can help some in their personal daily devotional time.
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:56 PM   #15
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At times, that's what happened in the Local Church of Witness Lee. For some it was a way to "enjoy" and get something from the Word in a way that transcended common mental comprehension. I personally don't think there is much to gain from this kind of practice in a corporate setting, but I think it can help some in their personal daily devotional time.
Yes! Hey, in the morning when I approach the word, I'm pretty "brain numbed" already! If done in a spontaneous way to reach out and talk to Jesus, I find it a very good, enriching and profitable way to be nourished in spirit!

So yes, Awareness, I can see why you'd think that from some of the corporate "one-up-manship" type of corporate pray-reading sessions I've experienced in the LC.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:41 PM   #16
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Pray-reading is a way to numb the brain.
perhaps the LC method..perhaps your experience numbed your brain. it did not numb mine or many others. For me, I liken my experience as to when I was learning to write. I learned how to print a certain way. I learned to write cursive a certain way. But as I grew up with more practice I developed my own writing style.

I went to grade school and high school with some classmates from first to 12th grade. We all learned how to write using the same method. But by the time we were in high school, no one wrote the same way we were taught. We all had our own writing personalities if you will. Yet we all had the SAME foundation from the same teacher(s)

I liken pray reading in the LC back in 1975 in my locality as a teaching tool to pray God's Word back to Him..

I am sorry "pray reading' has done nothing for your brain. It has had a very positive effect on me an on many others.
Also..I just don't call it 'pray reading'..the LC term nor do I recite God's Word as we were taught back in the day.

Hope you are doing well.
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:59 AM   #17
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor View Post
examples of other non-LC believers sharing/teaching about pray-reading. (not endorsing any group)

10 Ways to Pray the Word of God-Debbie Przybylski, Wesley and Stacey Campbell
https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/pray...rd-of-god.html
I encourage you to start pray-reading the Word of God on a regular basis. You will be amazed at all that God has to say to you from His Word as you dialogue with Him. You will grow in your effectiveness in prayer, as God leads you into thrilling depths and greater heights in your relationship with Him. When we pray-read the Bible, God teaches us in a way that is tailor-made for us personally. The Holy Spirit prays through us and gives us new insights as we pray.

How to Pray-Read the Bible - Benjamin Schäfer
https://yearningheartsjourney.blogsp...rd-of-god.html
One way to significantly increase your time and pleasure with the written Word of God is to start praying it instead of merely reading it. Instead of reading it for information or to fulfill our bible reading plan assignments, we actually take it as God's personal word to us and use it to feed and guide our conversation with Jesus. We take the Word and pray it back to Him. Simply taken, it means having a conversation with God using His Word. This is called "pray-reading" the Word.

The Latent Power of God: Pray-Reading - Armando Rodriguez
https://www.amazon.in/Latent-Power-G.../dp/B00UZFZT88
In the past, it has been my custom to read through the Scripture on a daily basis. I have enjoyed doing so, but when I began to Pray-Read God’s Word, it changed me. As I mingle it with prayer, it has fanned to flame new desires. I have begun to see and hear God more often. My prayers are being answered. I find myself filled with a joy that I had not previously known. The Words of the Bible are being embedded into my thought patterns. I welcome the transformation even though I do not fully understand it. I have discovered a Source of Power that renews, revives, refreshes, fills, comforts, and empowers. This type of prayer has taken the word dull out of my Christian experience and has infused me with peace that surpasses all understanding.
Raptor, thanks for posting this.

The real danger people face with WL and today's Blendeds is their use and misuse of Biblical semantics -- they take spiritual realities and distort their meanings for personal gains. "Pray-reading" the Bible is just one of a long list.

Another example is their abuse and distortion of the "oneness" of the believers.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:53 AM   #18
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

more examples of other non-LC believers sharing/teaching about pray-reading. (not endorsing any group)

How to Pray-Read the Word - Mike Bickle
https://tinyurl.com/y5j9wvm3
https://www.ihopkc.org/resources/ass..._MB/auto/true/ VIDEO
When I moved from a purely “study mode” to a “dialogue mode” when reading the Bible, it changed my spiritual life. I began my journey into what I term “pray-reading” the Word. I could feel His presence in a greater way. I began to love God’s Word. When I look back on over forty years of walking with Jesus, I realize that pray-reading the Word—using the Bible as the “conversational material” in my prayer life—has been the single most significant activity in my spiritual life. This simple activity is essential to abiding in Christ.

Teaching Kids to Pray When Reading the Bible
https://www.futureflyingsaucers.com/...reading-bible/
Encourage your kids to pray asking God to give them understanding of the verses they are about to see. Have them pray that the Holy Spirit would help them to focus on the insights he will reveal. Then have your children read for their quiet time. Even better, if they are situated in a prayer place, ask them to whisper the scripture out loud. That way they are seeing AND hearing the words. As the Holy Spirit works, he will cause the words to come alive and, at times, be sharper than a two-edged sword. If you have Bible reading at the same time, when it ends, have everyone gather together. Lead your children to pray that they will obey what they read and that the Holy Spirit will remind them of the scriptures when needed. Pray as a group until the habit is formed.

Praying the Bible – Samuel Whitefield
https://samuelwhitefield.com/239/praying-the-bible
Pray reading is where, as you read, you turn phrases and verses into prayer and basically dialog with the Lord over the Scripture. This is much slower than just reading the passage, but also helps bring real life into the passage and helps apply it deeper to your heart. (But) What I mean by “Praying the Scriptures” is extracting key phrases, promises of rewards, commands, warnings, and blessings from a book of the Bible or a passage of Scripture and creating a prayer list from these verses.
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Old 09-02-2019, 08:29 AM   #19
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Here are the last 3 references about pray-reading outside the LC that I found in a simple Google search. I think we can reasonably conclude that pray-reading is scriptural, it has a rich history both in the Bible and in christian practice.


How to Pray-Read Scripture – Gary Wiens (video and article)
https://thekeyofdavid.wordpress.com/...ead-scripture/
Jesus called us to abide in Him. The foundation of this reality means talking with Him. We do this best as we pray-read the Word, which is simply speaking its truths back to Him as we read it. Learning how to dialogue with God in the scriptures is like opening your mouth under the waterfall. When you learn how to take the word of God and pray it back to Him, in a conversational way, that word begins to live inside and begins to ignite your heart in a powerful way.

Scripture prayer for our children (audio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zpEv0JZNyI
Praying the scriptures is POWERFUL. The WORD of GOD will not return to HIM void. We must intercede and speak the WORD of GOD over our children. The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. But JESUS has come that we may have life; and have it more abundantly. Speak LIFE over our children.

ENGAGING GOD IN THE WORD: PRAY-READING THE WORD – Jeff Mootz
http://www.uhopsf.com/sermons/engagi...reading-bible/
Jesus corrected the leaders of his day and told them that their bible study life was not enough to connect with His heart. They needed to take the scriptures and engage in a Holy Spirit dialogue with God as a Person in order to receive life. God’s life is imparted to us as we prayerfully speak His Words to Him. The truths of the actual passages are imparted to us as we talk to Him about them.
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:13 AM   #20
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

My view is that scripture can be used as a basis for conversation with God since scripture is God's spoken word.

But simply plucking one verse to pray-read (e.g. just selecting the one or two bible verses that appear in the daily portion of a Morning Revival book) probably might not be helpful unless you already are familiar with the verse and its context.
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Old 09-02-2019, 09:38 AM   #21
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My view is that scripture can be used as a basis for conversation with God since scripture is God's spoken word.

But simply plucking one verse to pray-read (e.g. just selecting the one or two bible verses that appear in the daily portion of a Morning Revival book) probably might not be helpful unless you already are familiar with the verse and its context.
Of course we need to know the context. And it depends on the particular verse too. How many times is John 3:16 quoted by itself, but the meaning is fully contained in that verse? The main thing is God giving light and life through any verse - apart from getting His light and understanding, all of it is just dead to us anyway! Pray-reading is just another way to take it to Him in prayer and to be nourished thereby in our spirit.

And I second Raptor's motion regarding the dead-horse-beating on this subject!
I move to affirm that it's a good and scriptural practice (again, of course not in the mechanical/mindless LC way of doing it).
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Old 09-02-2019, 10:31 AM   #22
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Many thanks to Raptor for all the good references that show what "Pray-Reading" should really look like. I would note that virtually all of the references given show this to be an INDIVIDUAL practice, and not something for use in a corporate setting, such as is done in the Local Church of Witness Lee.

Christians have been practicing pray reading since the beginning as part of any mature Christians daily divisional time. Many different words and terms have been used, but the basic concept is exactly the same - praying the Word of God back to the Lord.

I must be honest and point out that none of the references provided look anything like the pray reading that is practiced in the Local Church...not even close really. And again, none of them reference practicing pray reading in a corporate setting, which is a bread and butter practice in the Local Church.

So is "Pray Reading" as it is outlined in the various references given on this thread scriptural? Absolutely!
Is "Pray Reading" as it is practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee scriptural? Absolutely Not!
Ok, now we can conclude

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Old 09-02-2019, 10:47 AM   #23
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Well said UtH!
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Old 09-02-2019, 03:16 PM   #24
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So is "Pray Reading" as it is outlined in the various references given on this thread scriptural? Absolutely!

Is "Pray Reading" as it is practiced in the Local Church of Witness Lee scriptural? Absolutely Not!
40 years ago we had a practice of repeating verses to one another in the meetings before a brother would minister. It was a preferred alternative to not reading Bible verses at all in the meeting. Some of it was fun, educational, nourishing, and enlivening. Sometimes public prayer would result. I still think that was much more edifying than everyone speaking in tongues.

Every practice is just that. "A" practice. Most any practice can be a help, and every practice can be abused. Church history is filled with stories. There are thousands of diverse practices in churches, but Paul did tell Timothy to "give attendance to the reading" of scripture. (I Timothy 4.6-16) The LC's I was part of used this scripture to support the practice.
  • Being nourished with the words of faith v.6
  • Exercise yourself unto godliness v.7
  • This faithful word is worthy of all acceptance v.9
  • Attend to public reading v.13
Once we remove the Spirit of reality from any spiritual practice, we are left with something robotic, empty, and vain. The same thing happened to Israel. God told them He was bored and disgusted with their offerings.

The problem with public "pray-reading" as orchestrated by LSM was the departure of God's glory from their temple. Without the Spirit of reality, the practice morphed into something unrecognizable to Christians. Something called PSRP was introduced in 1993. The practice departed from what any of us would call "prayer," or "reading the scripture." It became shouting and repeating the outlines of Lee. Today it is worse. They now shout and repeat the outlines of the Blendeds supposedly based on the outlines of Lee.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:33 AM   #25
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

FYI - Just read a passage in Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book, "Life Together" (circa 1930s), which went over meditation in the word. It really sounded like pray-reading, even though he didn't call it that. He wrote, "The consideration of Scripture leads into prayer. We have already said that the most promising way to pray is to allow oneself to be guided by the words of the Bible, to pray on the basis of the words of Scripture. In this way we will not fall prey to our own emptiness. Prayer means nothing more than to appropriate the Word, to let it speak to me in my personal situation, in my particular tasks, decisions, sins, and temptations." (pages 62-63 of my particular edition, the chapter titled "The Day Alone")
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Old 09-29-2019, 12:17 PM   #26
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I have been to gazillion different meetings while in the LC with all kinds of pray-reading, done in different ways, to different degrees, different expressions; much, little, loud, soft, repetitive, quick, spontaneous, planned, living, not so living, etc. etc. etc.

As a conclusion, in my experience, it has been overall pretty good, some experiences have been outstanding. The main negative thing that I have observed is when we fell into a routine and not turn the heart to the Lord, not address Him, not come to Him, not open to Him. This is a common mistake that can happen anywhere. The Lord taught against this numerous times, saying things like, your lips honor Me but your hearts are far away from Me, you search the scriptures....but you do not come to Me.

Whether personal or corporate pray-reading, it is a good, I would say even crucial aspect of the christian life and the practice of the church.
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Old 09-29-2019, 08:21 PM   #27
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If you think the Local Churches teaching and practice about pray-reading is wrong, find the main points in their publications about pray-reading and point out the mistakes. Talk about how in your experience their practice of pray-reading is wrong. But don´t throw out scriptural and healthy pray-reading. The Recovery does not have the copyright, monopoly or ownership over pray-reading.
Actually there are not many widely disseminated Living Stream publications covering the practice of corporate pray-reading, so it's hard to find any published mistakes to point to. My problem is with pray-reading as it is practiced in the Local Church. It is not scriptural, and it is not healthy. Proclaiming "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another is not found in the Bible. My experience of 40+ years (in and out of the Local Church) is that the corporate practice of pray-reading - as it is practiced in the Local Church - does not lead to the individual believers knowing the Lord and his Word, or true worship to God, which should be the goal of any corporate church practice.

There is a very good reason why many, if not most, Christians who visit the Local Church are turned off when they encounter corporate pray-reading - and it's not because they are moo-cows who are not used to the heavenly music - it's because it doesn't match what they have read in the Word, or what they have experienced in corporate gatherings and worshiping with legitimate, orthodox Christian churches and ministries.

Many of the references given by Raptor and others do exemplify "scriptural and healthy" pray-reading, but none of them are what I would consider even faintly close to what is practiced in the Local Church. I was in Orange County California for many years during the LC heyday of the 1970s. I "set my clock for 6 O'Clock" to be "right on time for the morning watch!" I was with hospitality from all over the country and the world - with hundreds of saints - and the practice of pray-reading was virtually uniform as I recall. I have been to a number of Local Church meetings and conference meetings in the last few years - still the same practice. Still not scriptural. Still not healthy.

I apologize to my valued and esteemed brother Raptor. I know it seems like I'm just trying to be contrary, but actually I'm trying to speak the truth in love as I know it. It seems to me that you and Sons toGlory! have tried to make the case that pray-reading as it has been practiced in the Local Church is scriptural and healthy, yet you brothers have not been able to make any such case. And I'm here to tell you that there is no such case to be made.
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Old 09-29-2019, 08:35 PM   #28
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There is a very good reason why many, if not most, Christians who visit the Local Church are turned off when they encounter corporate pray-reading -
My wife worked as a teller at a bank. She made friends with the president's wife, invited her to a meeting, and she went crazy for the local church.

So she talked her husband and another bank officer into going to a meeting. They were behind me in the meeting, and when her husband saw the meeting, pray-reading, calling, and all, I heard him tell his buddy : "These people are a half bubble off level."

And he knew nothing of the Bible.
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Old 09-30-2019, 10:41 AM   #29
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I apologize to my valued and esteemed brother Raptor. I know it seems like I'm just trying to be contrary, but actually I'm trying to speak the truth in love as I know it. It seems to me that you and Sons toGlory! have tried to make the case that pray-reading as it has been practiced in the Local Church is scriptural and healthy, yet you brothers have not been able to make any such case. And I'm here to tell you that there is no such case to be made.
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Well, speaking for myself, I made no such claim. That is, "pray-reading as it has been practiced in the LC is scriptural and healthy." No, while I think an argument for scriptural support can be made, I too feel that in many cases it has fallen into a rote practice in the LC. My testimony about pray-reading is more a personal one - I often do it on my own, but it doesn't fall into any set routine as such. It is just a way to speak the word to myself and the Lord, and through it praise & thank Him, ask questions, pray for things & others, and otherwise get His word into me.

BTW: I don't remember ever doing it corporately here in Scottsdale . . . but there's also nothing against it here that I know of (just as if someone wanted to speak in tongues or do foot-washing). I did witness one brother who tried to introduce it a couple times at a smaller gathering he was running, but it didn't catch on very well.
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Old 09-30-2019, 11:10 AM   #30
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No, while I think an argument for scriptural support can be made, I too feel that in many cases it has fallen into a rote practice in the LC.
An argument for scriptural support can be made? Scriptural support for what? For the kind of pray-reading that Raptor has referenced in his posts, and the Bonhoeffer one your just referenced? Of course there is scriptural support for these, because these are coming (for the most part) from orthodox, evangelical Christians. So that's a given. My point would be that what has been practiced in the Local Church has always been a rote practice. And this is why I brought up the point about how other Christians react to the pray-reading in the Local Church. Most Christians instinctively see it has an unscriptural and unhealthy practice.

Thanks for your clarification about Scottsdale.
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Old 09-30-2019, 11:38 AM   #31
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An argument for scriptural support can be made? Scriptural support for what? For the kind of pray-reading that Raptor has referenced in his posts, and the Bonhoeffer one your just referenced? Of course there is scriptural support for these, because these are coming (for the most part) from orthodox, evangelical Christians. So that's a given. My point would be that what has been practiced in the Local Church has always been a rote practice. And this is why I brought up the point about how other Christians react to the pray-reading in the Local Church. Most Christians instinctively see it has an unscriptural and unhealthy practice.

Thanks for your clarification about Scottsdale.
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We're in agreement . . . it's the same general thing we've had to clarify with each other on this forum over and over. That is, something gets taken too far in the LC, and we then have to make repeated attempts to clarify that, what we're talking about, is not the extreme form of it the LC practices (i.e., baby and dirty bath water). To me, using scripture in genuine prayer is the most natural way to speak to God. Saying "Oh Lord!" "Amen!" "Hallelujah!" before and/or after every statement is not of the Spirit and is a dead practice devoid of Christ.
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Old 09-30-2019, 12:15 PM   #32
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Anybody can pray-read or not ... with others or not ... in meetings or not.

If you want to understand scripture, personally I think the time would be better spent reading scholarly studies of the scriptures. But that's me.

The tragic fallacy is, perhaps, that it is an effort to connect with God. The tragedy is that it implies a disconnect.

Since it's impossible to disconnect from God, pray-reading is a superfluous activity.

But to each his or her own.
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Old 09-30-2019, 12:26 PM   #33
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I have read and studied scripture for some time, but none of it compares with one flash of light from the Lord! I've had this a number of times - thought I really knew the scripture, but truly didn't get it until the light came. So I must disagree with all the studying being the key. Light from Him is the key. But in any case, whether one pray-reads or studies, it is His light that makes all the difference!

Okay, we are connected with Christ. Put in Him by God. Seated with Him in the heavenlies. So nothing we do makes any difference? What then do we make of the numerous exhortations to "walk in spirit"? Is there nothing we do that makes any difference? Why is there an accounting for "things done in the body"? (2 Cor 5:10) Why are we exhorted to build with the right materials, namely gold, silver and precious stone?

Again, doing anything in a rote way has no profit. But things we do according to the Spirit will have profit (like pray-reading that really reaches out to touch Him in spirit).
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Old 09-30-2019, 02:01 PM   #34
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Stay connected brother. There's no reason not to. God is omnipresent.
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Old 09-30-2019, 03:21 PM   #35
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. . Proclaiming "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another . . . .
This is the part that baffled me. We are supposedly going to get the best from the Word by chopping it into disjointed words, losing the entirety of what the passage says in the process. This takes contextomy to an entirely new level.
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Old 09-30-2019, 06:27 PM   #36
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Stay connected brother. There's no reason not to. God is omnipresent.
Okay......................
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Old 10-06-2019, 12:08 PM   #37
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It seems to me that you and Sons toGlory! have tried to make the case that pray-reading as it has been practiced in the Local Church is scriptural and healthy, yet you brothers have not been able to make any such case. And I'm here to tell you that there is no such case to be made.
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Nope, second time you are wrong about that. First time I wrote about how pray-reading is scriptural, and you said something similar, which I refuted. This time I wrote about my experience and you are trying to say the same. I have not talked about the practice of pray-reading as a whole in the Local Church. You keep making stuff up and putting words in my mouth or misreading my posts. Seems like you are heavily biased about this issue and can´t read what I have written. To summarize, I wrote

1. pray-reading is scriptural
2. my experience of corporate pray-reading in the LC has been good.

Why don´t you start a thread like I suggested already about how the practice of pray-reading as done in the LC is unscriptural and unhealthy.That is what you are talking about, not me.
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Old 10-06-2019, 01:37 PM   #38
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To me, using scripture in genuine prayer is the most natural way to speak to God. Saying "Oh Lord!" "Amen!" "Hallelujah!" before and/or after every statement is not of the Spirit and is a dead practice devoid of Christ.
I am in complete agreement with you (and raptor) because I understand you guys completely. I was long gone when the LC/LSM began 'pray reading' the outlines or morning revival and such nonsense.

It's been a work in progress learning to tweek the pray reading I learned in the LC back in 1975 when we used the bible..but as STG wrote Using scripture in genuine prayer is the most natural way to speak to God. It is how we receive true revelation and understanding from God the Holy Spirit living and operating in our spirit. Praise the Holy Name of Jesus.
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Old 10-06-2019, 01:57 PM   #39
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. . Proclaiming "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another . . . .
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This is the part that baffled me. We are supposedly going to get the best from the Word by chopping it into disjointed words, losing the entirety of what the passage says in the process. This takes contextomy to an entirely new level.
I do not remember the "Oh Lord!" before one word, and then "Amen" before another, and then "Hallelujah" before another when I was learning to pray read. I do remember that after some time in prayer meetings it was a LOT of ' O LORD' this and 'AMEN' that and 'HALLELUIAH' this and that.. and much of the prayer was about 'Christ and the church'...

No worship... no praise.. no thanksgiving..except when we were singing from the hymnal in particular during the Lord's supper.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:51 AM   #40
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I think Ephesians 6 makes a compelling statement of proof that praying the Word aka 'pray reading' is scriptural.

Here goes:
Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might.

11 Put on the full armor of God......
in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and

the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.

18 With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit,


So as an example of how I was taught to pray read, it went something like this:
saint # 1 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.

saint #2 "LORD. We put on the Full Armor of God.
saint #3 Yes Lord. We put on the Full Armor of God.. that we may be able to stand firm.
saint #4 Yes! We STAND FIRM. OH!! LORD! WE put on the Full Armor of God that we may be able to STAND FIRM against the schemes of the devil.

And yes.. the saints would resound 'AMEN' after every phrase. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't pray read like that anymore and neither do I 'pray read' with people either. just my experience.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:44 PM   #41
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Default Re: Pray-Reading is Scriptural

And I don't see anything wrong with that either. Also: "Lord, help me/us put on Your full armor!" is something I would pray now.
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