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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 07-29-2019, 10:50 AM   #1
stillseekingtruth
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Default What is true?

Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

1. Are we going to heaven when we die or are we 'becoming the New Jerusalem'?

2. Are we going to be God's dwelling place for eternity? I understand that we won't be God in life and nature...

3. What is the truth about mingling? Is this biblical?

4. Are we born of God or adopted by God?

5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.

6. What is the real meaning of life?

7. Is there a 'central vision' in the Bible?

8. Are the crystallization studies biblical or just WL's imagination?

9. What does it mean to 'think the same thing?'

10. How do we separate what was true and what was a lie from what we were taught in the LR?

11. How do we continue on when we don't want to fight anymore?

12. How do we stop looking over our shoulder and waiting to be punished (not by God so much as man)?

13. Is the teaching about natural affection being evil true?

14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: What is true?

See my quick answers below in blue (and a few 2nd pass, longer edits):

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Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth View Post
Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

1. Are we going to heaven when we die or are we 'becoming the New Jerusalem'?
May be both, but ultimately NJ for sure. "I saw the NJ coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for her Husband."

2. Are we going to be God's dwelling place for eternity? I understand that we won't be God in life and nature...
This is my understanding of Ephesians

3. What is the truth about mingling? Is this biblical?
Not a biblical word, but He's certainly joined Himself to us in spirit. (1 Cor 6:17)

4. Are we born of God or adopted by God?
I think scripture indicates both - being born again is a matter of life, while adoption is the legal aspect.

5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.
My answer is to ask Him directly - He is faithful to answer.

6. What is the real meaning of life?
To love God and have an ongoing relationship with Him, and love those around us.

7. Is there a 'central vision' in the Bible?
God loves us! We blew it. God came to rescue us by manifesting in the flesh, dying in our place, giving us His righteousness, and coming to live in us. No one loves more than this!

8. Are the crystallization studies biblical or just WL's imagination?
I don't know about these - been gone too long.

9. What does it mean to 'think the same thing?'
Only achieved by looking away to Him - certainly not by our efforts!

10. How do we separate what was true and what was a lie from what we were taught in the LR?
Look to Him. Ask Him to give you clear understanding of His word and shine light on what is not true. For me it's 20+ years of recovering from The Recovery. But knowing His love, as the basis for everything He does toward us, was the beginning of real revelation concerning Him.

11. How do we continue on when we don't want to fight anymore?
In your weakness He is made strong in you. Thank Him for the opportunity to experience His strength through you and ask Him to help you.

12. How do we stop looking over our shoulder and waiting to be punished (not by God so much as man)?
Need a clear seeing that His primary motive towards you is His great love for you, and He works all things for your good! "He who has begun a good work in you is faithful to complete it."

13. Is the teaching about natural affection being evil true?
Can't address.

14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?
Yes! Condemnation is a lie! For freedom He set us free! (Gal 5:1)
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:09 AM   #3
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Default Re: What is true?

Thank you. I'm so overwhelmed right now. I keep imagining myself talking to a sister and accidentally bringing all this out. Leaving the LR is hard. There are so many memories swamping me.

One more question:

Is mental illness a heart issue?
I guess two: What of biblical counseling and those who believe that everything you need is in God's word? Psychologically speaking.
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Old 07-29-2019, 11:20 AM   #4
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14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?
Definitely yes. This may or may not help you, but one brother I know made the comment that in the garden of Eden there were many other trees besides the tree of life that God told Adam and Eve were good for food and that they were allowed to eat. There is plenty of stuff out there that is a normal part of human life that is not sinful that we are fully free to do and enjoy.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:20 PM   #5
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Thank you. I'm so overwhelmed right now. I keep imagining myself talking to a sister and accidentally bringing all this out. Leaving the LR is hard. There are so many memories swamping me.
Maybe you need to PM one of the women on this forum, or maybe one (or more) can PM you. Maybe you need more than doctrinal questions addressed.

It's mind- boggling when you think how many human souls have been ejected from the LC system as you are: overwhelmed and disoriented. Many are discouraged, frightened and confused. The LC system didn't work for them and it "wrecked" them (their words) from finding any path at all. Many abandoned the faith.

You are not alone. And you are speaking (writing). Both are good things.

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Is mental illness a heart issue? What of biblical counseling and those who believe that everything you need is in God's word? Psychologically speaking.
In the LC, you got one answer: the Deputy God. The Oracle has spoken. Out in the real world, if you ask 100 people, you get 100 opinions. I'll give you mine.

There is only one question: is God really out there? Or is it myth? If you answer in the negative, then you have to make do in a universe without God. Some seem to do well at it.

Myself, I just prefer God existing to non-existing. I'm funny that way. I just think there's a good God, who cares. Somehow that is preferable to the Big Empty Nothing. This leads me to consider paths to God. Now, if I grew up in a tribe in Lesotho or Swaziland then I might pick another path, but my destiny was to find myself one day on the "sawdust trail" of a Bible church, and here I am.

So, Question 1 (God) leads to Question 2 (Christ). Did Jesus really exist? Did he rise to glory and eternal kingship? Well, the only witnesses are in the Bible, an obviously biased source. It is of polemical and not historical nature.

But the Twelve were witnessed by Paul. Was Paul a myth? Was Polycarp? Or Irenaeus? At some point the crowd of interlocking testimonies lead me to conclude that I'm either facing the most clever forgery of human history or there's something behind all this. But what?

Believe, confess, love your (usually unlovable) neighbour. Try to be kind to others. Give to those who can't repay you in this age. Remember the poor and the sick. Don't steal, don't lie. Basic stuff.

And yes the New Jerusalem is there in the holy writ but if you don't get the basics it doesn't matter. I am still learning about the NJ. Who are the nations that walk in its light? Who are the kings that bring their glory in? Does Lee's answer make any sense to you? It does not, to me. So the journey continues.

As to your questions, if you can get a firm grasp of One and Two, that may help to navigate the rest. Godspeed.
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Old 07-29-2019, 06:25 PM   #6
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I know whom i have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committee unto Him against that day. It isn't a matter of belief in God or His Son ans salvation. (Most days) it is a matter of how to live and what is really true. Its not the Word as much as the interpretation of the Word. What does the Word mean to me? Or what does it mean as God meant it to mean and how do we know?
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth View Post
Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

1. Are we going to heaven when we die or are we 'becoming the New Jerusalem'?
2. Are we going to be God's dwelling place for eternity? I understand that we won't be God in life and nature...
3. What is the truth about mingling? Is this biblical?
4. Are we born of God or adopted by God?
5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.
6. What is the real meaning of life?
7. Is there a 'central vision' in the Bible?
8. Are the crystallization studies biblical or just WL's imagination?
9. What does it mean to 'think the same thing?'
10. How do we separate what was true and what was a lie from what we were taught in the LR?
11. How do we continue on when we don't want to fight anymore?
12. How do we stop looking over our shoulder and waiting to be punished (not by God so much as man)?
13. Is the teaching about natural affection being evil true?
14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?
Wow! Stillseekingtruth! By the time I got through reading your questions, I thought my head was going to explode! I can only imagine how you must feel! I didn’t have all those questions, but some of them I certainly had.

Having so many really good questions means you are in a good place. As you continue looking for answers, I have a suggestion that may help you find the answers you seek. Take every question and ask the Lord Jesus for the answer. I know. That may sound like a cop out or some such. I had some of the same kind of questions, and no one could answer them for me to my satisfaction. Other people helped me some, but there was always something missing.

I solved my problem by determining that everything I ever heard WL teach or anything I ever heard in the LC was wrong or questionable. I decided to throw it all out. There was too much for me to do otherwise. I then looked to the Lord to show me His truth from His Word and from my experience and answers to my prayer. Whatever I kept was from the Word and that had nothing to do with Witness Lee. It was everything to do with God’s Word and no credit to any man.

After years of this...asking the Lord for answers...I realized that I was getting to know Him as a person I could talk to, and someone who talked to me. He was the person who, in the middle of heavy traffic, making me upset, angry and late for work, he said to me “let them all go”. Meaning, all the cars trying to cut you off...let them. I said OK. I don’t remember if I was late to work or not, but I do remember the conversation I had with Him that day, all these years later.

His answers are the best. Others’ answers may be perfectly right and OK, or not, but coming from Him, it’s much better! Even amazing! Now, He’s my best friend. I talk to Him all the time and he talks back. Many of the questions I had before were not answered...that I remember...but they are no longer questions.

You can tell Him anything. He keeps secrets. He’s just the best. Going on vacation is OK with Him. He will go with you and even help you plan it and then plop Himself down right in the middle of your trip and give you some special moments and times. I speak from experience.

He’s not fast. He’s thorough, and complete, and better at this stuff than you ever imagined. I have been on some of the most fantastic trips that I never dreamed I would get to take. I have been to France 5 times, last month to Normandy (D-Day 75). He did it. It seems it doesn’t really matter about all the “things” of this life, as long as you open your heart to the life he can give you and include him.

I hope this helps. He’s the best.

This is true.

Nell
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Old 07-29-2019, 09:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post

I solved my problem by determining that everything I ever heard WL teach or anything I ever heard in the LC was wrong or questionable. I decided to throw it all out.
Same here!! I may not have been in the LC as long as most people here have but the spirit of LR was on me for many, many years to come.

Quote:
After years of this...asking the Lord for answers...I realized that I was getting to know Him as a person I could talk to, and someone who talked to me. He was the person who, in the middle of heavy traffic, making me upset, angry and late for work, he said to me “let them all go”. Meaning, all the cars trying to cut you off...let them. I said OK. I don’t remember if I was late to work or not, but I do remember the conversation I had with Him that day, all these years later.
This reminds me of an experience I had a couple of weeks ago. These 2 people I know put me in a bad mood for 2 days. What's more is they are really nice people but can be a thorn on my side. They inadvertently stole my joy and peace. So after 2 days, I told the Lord I hate being in a bad mood!! I asked Him to remove it from me. Suddenly I burst out singing.. I made up a song to the LORD and within 2 minutes top that bad mood spirit left me! and I have been over all in a good mood again ever since! That's not to say I don't get frustrated at times. Just today, I had it out with my brother but we made up after a few hours of each of us going to our own corners
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Old 07-29-2019, 09:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth View Post
Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.
When you read the Bible, there is not one verse that tells us to trust men. In fact, what the Bible is replete with are verses telling us we should trust in the Lord. Acts 14:23 states, "Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust." Please note in whom they placed their trust. Furthermore, God's word informs us that we should test and prove each spirit, as it says in 1 John 4:1 - Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Please note the explanation as to why we should test the spirits - "because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

God blessed us with a new covenant; one in which

"This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest."

The end of the goal of the new covenant is that each of His children will know Him personally.

You may then ask, "What about trust between believers? What should I do here?" No doubt we have relations between each other as members of His Body. However, this trust goes insofar as the Spirit leads us. We should never blindly follow others as they are not the Head, since there is only one Head and we are all to be subjected under Him. However, in practice, we each fall short of being under the Headship of Christ. This fact is why we must always seek to give the Lord the first place in all things and not depend on others to lead us. This does not mean we are not open to listen and hear others. It just means we should all listen and hear each other and allow the words spoken to be measured and discerned by the Holy Spirit who abides in us.

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Old 07-30-2019, 02:55 AM   #10
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I know whom i have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committee unto Him against that day. It isn't a matter of belief in God or His Son ans salvation. (Most days) it is a matter of how to live and what is really true. Its not the Word as much as the interpretation of the Word. What does the Word mean to me? Or what does it mean as God meant it to mean and how do we know?
Nell gave good advice - let go of everything you thought you knew and trust him. That was what I was saying, with my previous post.

As far as interpretation of the Word there are fantastic resources out there. But at it's core it's very simple, that was what I was trying to say earlier. If you have the basics then you can navigate the complexities.

The LC system is such a complete and thorough mind-rape that it's best to drop it all. If you were sucked into the 24/7/365 "church life" as many of us were, just start from the basics and move on. Give yourself one or two simple questions that you can answer in the affirmative, and you'll go forward. I mean, if God didn't raise Jesus from the dead on the third day, then we're just all wasting our time here. If he did, then we have hope and we go on.

The gospel is very simple but it's very deep. That is what has drawn, and continues to draw, seekers through the centuries. My own 'starting point' is the two great gospel messages in Acts, one by the Galilean fisherman Peter and one by the urban Pharisee Paul. Both use almost identical phrases and imagery. Compare Acts 2:24-32 with Acts 13:30-38. It's the same gospel. Why should any of us try to re-invent it?
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
This reminds me of an experience I had a couple of weeks ago. These 2 people I know put me in a bad mood for 2 days. What's more is they are really nice people but can be a thorn on my side. They inadvertently stole my joy and peace. So after 2 days, I told the Lord I hate being in a bad mood!! I asked Him to remove it from me. Suddenly I burst out singing.. I made up a song to the LORD and within 2 minutes top that bad mood spirit left me! and I have been over all in a good mood again ever since! That's not to say I don't get frustrated at times. Just today, I had it out with my brother but we made up after a few hours of each of us going to our own corners
Thanks - Great testimony of a fresh experience of Christ in your life!!
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:57 AM   #12
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Thanks - Great testimony of a fresh experience of Christ in your life!!
Hello StG, do you know or fellowship with anybody in OKC?
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:19 AM   #13
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Oh wow! Thank you, Nell. I will take it all to Him. I started to discard music from LSM (so called hymns that they changed the words to so that they could match the ministry) I looked at my bookshelf yesterday and stacked up LR books for the trash. Do you know what crept into my head today? "I'm not allowed to have an opinion about that." Then I asked, " Am I allowed to have an opinion? Am I allowed to have desires and wants? Am I allowed to be disappointed when life gets murky?" I hear myself pray in TLR language. My understanding about God, Jesus, and the Spirit are tangled with ministry and Christiantiy. I was reading Corinthians this morning and I was so confused. I wanted to seek out a 'teaching' on it, but I'm afraid to because I don't know who to trust.

What am I to ponder? These moments in my mind often lead to frustration and I end up stating that I don't care and what does it matter? It becomes a contention between me and my husband. At the church meetings we go to at the denominationI respond with, "I've heard this a million times." or I scruitinize the message. I don't know why but these thoughts and frustrations make me want to cut myself just to relieve the pain. But I've been good not doing that for a long time.
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveHim&HearHim View Post
When you read the Bible, there is not one verse that tells us to trust men. In fact, what the Bible is replete with are verses telling us we should trust in the Lord. Acts 14:23 states, "Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust." Please note in whom they placed their trust. Furthermore, God's word informs us that we should test and prove each spirit, as it says in 1 John 4:1 - Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Please note the explanation as to why we should test the spirits - "because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

God blessed us with a new covenant; one in which

"This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest."

The end of the goal of the new covenant is that each of His children will know Him personally.

You may then ask, "What about trust between believers? What should I do here?" No doubt we have relations between each other as members of His Body. However, this trust goes insofar as the Spirit leads us. We should never blindly follow others as they are not the Head, since there is only one Head and we are all to be subjected under Him. However, in practice, we each fall short of being under the Headship of Christ. This fact is why we must always seek to give the Lord the first place in all things and not depend on others to lead us. This does not mean we are not open to listen and hear others. It just means we should all listen and hear each other and allow the words spoken to be measured and discerned by the Holy Spirit who abides in us.

Essentially, we need to take everything we hear to the Lord and match it against the Word? I recall many times whenI read verses side by side with the ministry and it was a very loose tie. In fact, there were times that you had to make a huge leap to try to understand the interpretation. Alas, I was told to just except it and let Christ reveal it to me. Or rather, just pray read the outlines and pray read the verses. Don't try to understand it, just eat it. Now, in Mainstream Christianity, it's all about learning and doctrine. Is it odd that my being physically reacts to such things? I shudder at the word 'doctrine' and 'learn.' Don't these people know we're just supposed to taste and see? Oy....here goes my mind again. I feel the fire-filled rage burning within so I'll end here.
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:37 AM   #15
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Another question I have - are the pictures of the three circles (body, soul, and spirit) biblical? Is Christ spreading from our spirit to our soul? Is that transformation? In maintream Christianity I was told that the spirit and the soul are the same thing.
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:42 AM   #16
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Nell gave good advice - let go of everything you thought you knew and trust him. That was what I was saying, with my previous post.

As far as interpretation of the Word there are fantastic resources out there. But at it's core it's very simple, that was what I was trying to say earlier. If you have the basics then you can navigate the complexities.

The LC system is such a complete and thorough mind-rape that it's best to drop it all. If you were sucked into the 24/7/365 "church life" as many of us were, just start from the basics and move on. Give yourself one or two simple questions that you can answer in the affirmative, and you'll go forward. I mean, if God didn't raise Jesus from the dead on the third day, then we're just all wasting our time here. If he did, then we have hope and we go on.

The gospel is very simple but it's very deep. That is what has drawn, and continues to draw, seekers through the centuries. My own 'starting point' is the two great gospel messages in Acts, one by the Galilean fisherman Peter and one by the urban Pharisee Paul. Both use almost identical phrases and imagery. Compare Acts 2:24-32 with Acts 13:30-38. It's the same gospel. Why should any of us try to re-invent it?
Thank you. I've been asked why I ask so many questions and why I overthink things in the LR. The gospel is quite clear. But what is life after the gospel? What is life after salvation? trying to do good and please God? Trying to grow in Christ and allowing Him to make home in our heart? Trying to deny our self, dying to our self, lying on the floor and taking it because that's what Jesus would do and that's how we cover one another? When do we have permission to call out the wicked? And when we call out the wicked, we must come to the light and see our own wickedness and then we succumb to the idea that life just sucks and we have to take whatever comes our way because a. we live in a fallen world b. there will always be suffering and c. a dead person doesn't feel.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:03 AM   #17
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Another question I have - are the pictures of the three circles (body, soul, and spirit) biblical? Is Christ spreading from our spirit to our soul? Is that transformation? In maintream Christianity I was told that the spirit and the soul are the same thing.
The spirit and soul are not the same, but I don't care for those 3 circles anymore. Can we really dissect all these inward parts? If physical sickness affects my mind, then we are far more complicated than the 3 circles lends us to believe.

Today I prefer to find a translation I like and just read it. Since I have been out for a while, I now can look at many verses where Lee stretched his interpretation and contradicted or distorted the Bible. We have had many discussion threads on these discrepancies. Slowly over time, my understanding has departed from Lee and now more closely matches scripture. It takes time.

I encourage you to rejoice with every step. Each time you get delivered from a "Lee-ism" is a part of your un-leavening process. Those who have tried for a "quick fix" have sometimes thrown out the good with the bad. The teachings of Lee tampered with our faith and love to our Savior. We never want to let go of those.
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Old 07-30-2019, 09:10 AM   #18
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And when we call out the wicked, we must come to the light and see our own wickedness and then we succumb to the idea that life just sucks and we have to take whatever comes our way because a. we live in a fallen world b. there will always be suffering and c. a dead person doesn't feel.
stillseekingtruth, I laughed reading this. Are not the Blended brothers also "dead?" Didn't they teach, "a dead person doesn't feel?"

So why are they now so upset? Why are they calling special meetings? Why are they basically cursing the Casteels' and others who speak their heart?

Simple. They are hypocrites. They teach one thing, and do something else. The Lord had much to say about these "Pharisees."
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:28 PM   #19
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Hello StG, do you know or fellowship with anybody in OKC?
Is that Oklahoma City? If so, there are a few in that area (and/or Tulsa I think) that fellowship occasionally with us in Scottsdale. Why? Are you interested in getting some contact info?
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:43 PM   #20
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Default Re: What is true?

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Another question I have - are the pictures of the three circles (body, soul, and spirit) biblical? Is Christ spreading from our spirit to our soul? Is that transformation? In maintream Christianity I was told that the spirit and the soul are the same thing.
Yes, there are certainly some that believe soul and spirit are the same, but also many who don't - even in mainstream Christianity. It just depends on who you are listening to.If you do some digging yourself with a concordance, you will find verses mentioning each as showing them to be different.

A couple clear verses are:

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:23

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:13 PM   #21
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Hi sister. Man, my heart really goes out to you, empathizes with you, and relates to you. Like Aron said, it is mind rape that has happened here. The LC tried to strip you of your everything. Your humanity. Your thinking, processing truth vs lies, your common sense, your emotions and feelings. Your decision making ability to say for yourself what is right and wrong. That is what they employ to get people to accept their lies.

You have a million questions now and that is wonderful. Question everything you learned from them. It is complicated, learning how to study the bible. But if you trust Christ you have everything you need to do this. You have the living Holy Spirit of God with you. He will guide you if you acknowledge Him in everything.

Kevin Thompsons' YouTube channel Beyond the Fundamentals has a really great series on how to study the bible. It is helping me. It begins with questioning the text. Ask who, what, when, where, why, and how of everyone and everything.

When I was seeking answers to rebut doctrine in the SDA cult specifically for a friend of mine in that group, I would write my question at the top of a sheet of paper and then look at scripture and YouTube, and ask the Lord for help. I would write down every verse He showed me and I was really amazed at the answers flowing to me with seemingly no effort. Truly, if you seek, you will find!! God never lied to us, sister. The LC is a quagmire of deception but in Him is no lie.

Human beings are His masterpiece, sister. I just want to encourage you. It is not that surprising that you have emotional and mental struggles after coming through the thought/humanity suppression system that is the LC. I think your human response is pretty darn reasonable. People are so complex and especially us women, I believe. We are especially vulnerable, emotionally. But that is not a wicked thing. This is how the Lord designed us. Jesus Himself was a deep well of emotion, especially when it comes to us who need His healing. And we are not here to be ascetics. If the Lord personally tells you to set something down, obey. But don't take the Lee ministrys' word for it, nor anyone elses'. Look for the truth in the word of God. He is capable of speaking to you through the Holy Spirit regarding any and all things. Especially if you ask Him for His wisdom and leading.

Be encouraged, sister! Jesus loved you, He proved His great love for us by His death, and He resurrected and is the fountain of life unto us who believe on Him! He took our lashes to spare us. He didn't want that to fall to you. Rest in Him, sister. He is our sabbath, our rest.

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Old 07-30-2019, 03:06 PM   #22
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Default Re: What is true?

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Rest in Him, sister. He is our sabbath, our rest.

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Amen, he is indeed.

bHm, I assume the Lord crystalized this nugget of truth for you while researching SDA. Am I right?
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: What is true?

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Amen, he is indeed.

bHm, I assume the Lord crystalized this nugget of truth for you while researching SDA. Am I right?
He did use the book of Hebrews to shine on my study at that time. And that He is our rest to enter into was the main point impressed on my heart from Hebrews. But I don't like that word crystalization used in conjunction with bible study because of LSM. I prefer plain English these days. You know, say what you mean and mean what you say. But I am probably just prejudiced against that terminology. ;-)

Perhaps I should just look that word up.....but I doubt it would change my feeling on that WL flavored speech.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:29 PM   #24
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He did use the book of Hebrews to shine on my study at that time. And that He is our rest to enter into was the main point impressed on my heart from Hebrews. But I don't like that word crystalization used in conjunction with bible study because of LSM. I prefer plain English these days. You know, say what you mean and mean what you say. But I am probably just prejudiced against that terminology. ;-)

Perhaps I should just look that word up.....but I doubt it would change my feeling on that WL flavored speech.
Oops, I didn't know that word was part of Local Church lingo. What I meant by "crystalize" was that sometimes certain things are known to us in our spirit but it's until only later that the Lord actually articulates and aligns certain truths to us in mind as well.

That's what happened with me concerning the Sabbath. I knew observing a set apart day for sabbath was no longer required of us and that being in Jesus was our fulfillment of that commandment but it wasn't aligned with my theology until I started researching the Hebrew Roots movement. Only then did I really get it. I assumed that happened for you as well since SDA and HR both teach a literal sabbath.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:48 PM   #25
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Oops, I didn't know that word was part of Local Church lingo. What I meant by "crystalize" was that sometimes certain things are known to us in our spirit but it's until only later that the Lord actually articulates and aligns certain truths to us in mind as well.

That's what happened with me concerning the Sabbath. I knew observing a set apart day for sabbath was no longer required of us and that being in Jesus was our fulfillment of that commandment but it wasn't aligned with my theology until I started researching the Hebrew Roots movement. Only then did I really get it. I assumed that happened for you as well since SDA and HR both teach a literal sabbath.
No, it is a perfectly harmless word. It just has the misfortune to be tied by association to the LC ministry. Probably on every banner ever printed up, extra large. And most of the Holy Word for Morning Revival. And I did look it up. To make something clear, precise. Perfectly functional word! And yes, to see that Christ literally IS our sabbath. Sets us free from keeping that law. It seems HR and SDA have a bit in common. No, an observation of a particular day is no longer a requirement. We are free from that. And let me say, simultaneously, as I understand Roman's 14 (I think) I can safely support others if they do see a day as special, or marked separate from other days, to observe. While I am still free from the obligation. Isn't Jesus awesome? Bless God, brother!
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Old 07-30-2019, 05:19 PM   #26
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Is that Oklahoma City? If so, there are a few in that area (and/or Tulsa I think) that fellowship occasionally with us in Scottsdale. Why? Are you interested in getting some contact info?
Yes, I have a close relative there that I'm trying to help leave the LC and see that you can still have the church life without LSM and excess adoration of Lee and Nee. I'm interested in how your church is managing. Do you read books by other authors than Lee? Can you give me an example of some books you have read?

I think I just hijacked this thread, maybe UntoHim can move it to a new thread? Sorry!
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Old 07-30-2019, 05:39 PM   #27
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And let me say, simultaneously, as I understand Roman's 14 (I think) I can safely support others if they do see a day as special, or marked separate from other days, to observe. While I am still free from the obligation. Isn't Jesus awesome? Bless God, brother!
Yes, absolutely. Amen!
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:13 AM   #28
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Default Re: What is true?

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Yes, I have a close relative there that I'm trying to help leave the LC and see that you can still have the church life without LSM and excess adoration of Lee and Nee. I'm interested in how your church is managing. Do you read books by other authors than Lee? Can you give me an example of some books you have read?

I think I just hijacked this thread, maybe UntoHim can move it to a new thread? Sorry!
Books I've read? Let's see, for morning meditation I get into these:
>Daily Light, Bagster/Lotz
>Daily Open Windows, T. Austin Sparks
>The Supplied Life, Bill Freeman

I'm currently reading Life Together, by Dietrich Bonhoffer. Just finished What is Man, by Sparks. A number of us are reading both these books (Sparks & Bonhoffer seem to be popular among several here right now), and many use one or more of the above daily devotionals.

Authors being read among us varies widely, and there is no "suggested reading list." If someone gets touched by the Lord through a particular writing, then they will likely share it with others, or maybe be inspired to read some of it in one of the gatherings. Nee is brought up from time to time. Very rarely, something by WL might be mentioned (although it is usually from one brother).

I am constantly thankful for the freedom that is here! In 20 years, I have never experienced the kind of overt (or even covert) authority that is common in the LC! No, it's certainly not perfect here (but then again, it is - if you know what I mean)! Our boast is in Him!!!

Does that help?
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:26 AM   #29
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Default Re: What is true?

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I am constantly thankful for the freedom that is here! In 20 years, I have never experienced the kind of overt (or even covert) authority that is common in the LC! No, it's certainly not perfect here (but then again, it is - if you know what I mean)! Our boast is in Him!!!
Thanks STG!

There are a number of churches scattered across the country that were started by ex-LCers. Their goal was to take everything good from their time in the LC, and discard all the leaven.

Contrary to the continued curses from the LSM podium, all of these churches seem to be the healthiest places to meet and grow.
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Old 07-31-2019, 08:13 AM   #30
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Yes, I have a close relative there that I'm trying to help leave the LC and see that you can still have the church life without LSM and excess adoration of Lee and Nee. I'm interested in how your church is managing. Do you read books by other authors than Lee? Can you give me an example of some books you have read?

I think I just hijacked this thread, maybe UntoHim can move it to a new thread? Sorry!
About 5 years ago an elder in the LR told me to go ahead and listen to Christian radio and see how 'wrong' they are. Well, I took him up on it. They're not 'wrong.' Either way, I listented to Alistair Begg and John MacArthur. MacArthur has a lot of books out. The Gospel According to Jesus. The Gospel Accoding to God. (Notice there isn't the Gospel According to Witness Lee?) I just got stung with a thought "Now I'm going to hell for speaking against WL." Ok, reject that thought. Anyway, I don't know if they're still in the LR if they will be open to listen or read anything or anyone other than those approved by WL.

I got about halfway through The Power of Prayer in a Believer's Life by Charles Spurgeon. I read it with my WL "glasses" on but it is very clear and very good. Hope that helps a bit.

There is also an app called Sermon Audio that has a ton of Christian preachers. First, they have to be willing to step out of their comfort zone and fear and be willing to listen to someone other than WL and his approved list.
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Old 07-31-2019, 09:19 AM   #31
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I got about halfway through The Power of Prayer in a Believer's Life by Charles Spurgeon. I read it with my WL "glasses" on but it is very clear and very good. Hope that helps a bit.
I have not read a whole lot by Charles Spurgeon, but I do know that he was constantly condemned by Darby and the Exclusives much the same way that that Lee and the Blendeds condemn Christianity.

As a result, many of his messages exposed the deceptions of the Exclusive Brethren, and thus are still helpful for ex-LCers today.
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Old 07-31-2019, 09:20 AM   #32
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About 5 years ago an elder in the LR told me to go ahead and listen to Christian radio and see how 'wrong' they are. That's almost unbelievable - how elite can one get and still breath!?Well, I took him up on it. They're not 'wrong.' Either way, I listented to Alistair Begg and John MacArthur. MacArthur has a lot of books out. The Gospel According to Jesus. The Gospel Accoding to God. (Notice there isn't the Gospel According to Witness Lee?) I just got stung with a thought "Now I'm going to hell for speaking against WL." Ok, reject that thought. Yes, bro - a lie from the pit! Perfect love casts out all fear! Anyway, I don't know if they're still in the LR if they will be open to listen or read anything or anyone other than those approved by WL.

I got about halfway through The Power of Prayer in a Believer's Life by Charles Spurgeon. I read it with my WL "glasses" on but it is very clear and very good. Hope that helps a bit.

There is also an app called Sermon Audio that has a ton of Christian preachers. First, they have to be willing to step out of their comfort zone and fear and be willing to listen to someone other than WL and his approved list. I can't believe that I too swallowed that TOTAL LIE!
The Lord delivered me from that lie of fear over 20 years ago, and I can't tell you how rich I find the writings and speakings of those who are in no way associated with LSM!
The only thing I will say that there is not so much "out there" regarding the cross and the building of the church, and to some degree the indwelling Christ/and experiencing Him. But if you seek and dig, you will find many others who speak about these in a wonderful way!
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:08 AM   #33
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Thanks STG!

There are a number of churches scattered across the country that were started by ex-LCers. Their goal was to take everything good from their time in the LC, and discard all the leaven.

Contrary to the continued curses from the LSM podium, all of these churches seem to be the healthiest places to meet and grow.
Do you have specific examples? Knowing about these (i.e. location/name) could be helpful for many.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:13 AM   #34
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Do you have specific examples? Knowing about these (i.e. location/name) could be helpful for many.
Good question! I'll provide a few I know, but it will be interesting to hear from Ohio and others!

Scottsdale (where I am) https://www.scottsdalechurch.org/
Moses Lake, WA http://www.thechurchinmoseslake.org/
North Carolina (Raleigh I think, but could be wrong - maybe Durham?)
Southern Cal - Westminster (right?)

As far as the names, we're just "Scottsdale Church." Not sure about the others.
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Old 07-31-2019, 11:31 AM   #35
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Do you have specific examples? Knowing about these (i.e. location/name) could be helpful for many.
Grandview Christian Assembly near Columbus, OH. (John Myer)

The Church in Toronto, ON, CA (Nigel Tomes)

Near Wash DC (Matt Anderson)

Durham, NC (Don Rutledge)
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