"Lord Thou Saidst"

[ZNPaaneah]

"I'm not the one that opened the Pandora's Box of "many posts and members discredit and throw out many biblical topics and practices, just because they were emphasized or practiced in WL ministry." That would be my esteemed and valued brother Raptor. However when I asked him to give us some concrete examples he flew the coup on us. Come on bro! I was really hoping that you would put those deadly talons to work and dig up some strong biblical and historical evidence to support the Local Church practices of pray-reading and calling on the Lord." -- UntoHim (from the thread on Eating and drinking Jesus)

UntoHim has thrown down the gauntlet for strong biblical and historical evidence to support the Local Church practice of pray-reading.

This has been a long running debate on this forum. So I would put forth the book "Lord Thou Saidst" published by the LSM (therefore a bonified example of their black and white teaching) and compiled by Ray Graver (so this book is a window into the mind of RG as well as showing what he was teaching in Houston from 1978-1981 when the book was published.

This book is very strong biblical and historical evidence to support the practice of pray reading the word of God. Please notice I am not saying it is evidence that supports the LC practice which deviates quite a bit from what is written in this book.

That is what makes this a great debate topic. You can argue that pray reading is Biblical and practiced by all those who have gone before us. On the other hand you can also argue that this book exemplifies the hypocrisy and duplicity of LSM. When they had legal issues with Mind Benders and Godmen books, they put out this book to show how fundamental their practice was. However, they don't sell it anymore, don't distribute it anymore, and certainly don't teach it anymore.

The theme of the book is given on the first page of chapter one: "On the one hand, the key to the Word of God is prayer; on the other hand, the secret to prayer is the Word of God."

That is certainly not what WL taught or the Blendeds push. They want you to use WL and the LSM publications as a mediator between you and the word of God.

[ZNPaaneah]

"How well the Old Testament saints understood this connection between God's words and ours, and how really prayer with them was the loving response to what they had heard God speak! If the word were a promise, they counted on God to do as He had spoken. "Do as thou hast said;" "For Thou, Lord, hast spoken it;" "According to thy promise!" "According to Thy word;" in such expressions they showed that what God spake in promise was the root and the life of what they spake in prayer." Andrew Murray, With Christ in the School of Prayer, p. 154

[ZNPaaneah]

"The best we can say to God in prayer is what He has said to us. God's promises, as they are the surest guide of our desires in prayer, and furnish us with the best petitions, so they are the firmest ground of our hopes, and furnish us with the best pleas. "Lord, thou saidst thus and thus; and wilt thou not be as good as thy word, the word upon which thou hast caused me to hope?" (Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible (New York: Fleming H. Revell Company, 1925), vol. 1, p. 17

[OBW]

But so far I am unable to determine if your claim of "very strong biblical and historical evidence to support the practice of pray reading the word of God" is correct since I do not have a copy of the book.

So where does one find a copy of Lord Thou Saidst? I've been unable to find it in the LSM online books. Another source . . . ?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

But so far I am unable to determine if your claim of "very strong biblical and historical evidence to support the practice of pray reading the word of God" is correct since I do not have a copy of the book.

So where does one find a copy of Lord Thou Saidst? I've been unable to find it in the LSM online books. Another source . . . ?

https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/sh...rd-thou-saidst

https://www.amazon.com/REVELATION-SC...audible&sr=8-1

[ZNPaaneah]

"You put your finger down upon the very lines, and say "Do as thou hast said." This is the best praying in all the world. O beloved, be filled with God's word. C.H.Spurgeon, The Secret of Power in Prayer (London: Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, 1888, reprinted by Pilgrim Publications, Pasadena, TX), p.21

[ZNPaaneah]

What is our weapon? Our Leader has placed in our hands the irresistible sword of the Spirit which defeated the devil in the wilderness -- The Word of God. But its aggressive and conquering power is released only through the prayer of faith. Our instructions are, "Take the sword of the Spirit...praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit...with all perseverance." This is no mere passive praying. Only aggressive prayer based on the Word of God dislodges the enemy from his citadel. J. Oswald Sanders, Effective Prayer, p.36

[ZNPaaneah]

"Lest we should be as far away from the ears of God as we are from His precepts, the recollection of the precepts paves the way to heaven for our prayers." Tertullian, Concerning Prayer, p.28

[ZNPaaneah]

Let there be study of the Divine Word, mingled with prayer. Olive Wyon, The School of Prayer, p.95

[ZNPaaneah]

Now UntoHim and others have made a valid point, none of these quotes resemble the practice in the Local Church promoted by LSM in their meetings.

1. There is little or no genuine encouragement to "study the word mingled with prayer" rather you are told to read and learn the interpretation of WL, sanctioned by the Blended's.

2. They are very far away from the precepts of God, particularly Paul's ordinance not to sue your brothers and sisters, but that is simply the tip of the iceberg. If the recollection of God's precepts paves the way to heaven with your prayers, what does the willful ignoring of them do?

3. They claim they have the "irresistible sword of the spirit" but when was the last time we saw them conquer anything? What devil has been dislodged from what citadel by them?

So let's put our finger down on God's word -- 2 But there arose false prophets also among the people, as among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Lord we have shown these to be false teachers. They use the Bible and the faithful words of your followers to justify their acts, and yet it is a charade for the law court. In practice it is nothing like the real thing, it is a forgery designed to make merchandise of the saints. Worse yet, the very leaders of the movement today cannot claim to not know the truth, they wrote this book. The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat: 3 all things therefore whatsoever they bid you, these do and observe: but do not ye after their works; for they say, and do not.

We have shown that they have brought in destructive heresies, -- the doctrine of the ground of the church is destructive, it is divisive, and it has become abusive.

we have shown that their doctrine of MOTA denies the Master that bought them,

so we ask that as they have sown, so shall they reap. Bring upon them a bountiful harvest of a swift destruction.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

But so far I am unable to determine if your claim of "very strong biblical and historical evidence to support the practice of pray reading the word of God" is correct since I do not have a copy of the book.

So where does one find a copy of Lord Thou Saidst? I've been unable to find it in the LSM online books. Another source . . . ?

That's funny. The book is not available?

Prolly the one LSM book I would want to hold onto, and they refuse to print it.

Like ZNP said, this book would be their undoing.

If nothing else, it shows us how WL changed RG, not for the better, but for the worse.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Like ZNP said, this book would be their undoing.

If nothing else, it shows us how WL changed RG, not for the better, but for the worse.

"Prayer it is, when it is within the compass of God's word; and it is blasphemy, or at best vain babbling, when the petition is beside the book." John Bunyan, A Discourse Touching Prayer, p.265.

One could see why LSM would not like the saints to read that quote.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

"Prayer it is, when it is within the compass of God's word; and it is blasphemy, or at best vain babbling, when the petition is beside the book." John Bunyan, A Discourse Touching Prayer, p.265.

One could see why LSM would not like the saints to read that quote.

ZNP, did this book just vanish from sight, or was it actively banned?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, did this book just vanish from sight, or was it actively banned?

I have no idea.

[ZNPaaneah]

What we know for a fact is that Ray G, Benson P, Kerry R., and Ed M. are all extremely familiar with this book. We also know that they teach that the practice of pray reading is Biblical and was taught by the church fathers going all the way back to Jerome, Tertullian and Augustine. Yet they also know that the practice of pray reading that they teach is not at all the practice that the Bible or the Christian teachers teach. Nowhere in any of these quotes does it describe pray reading the ministry of a preacher. If anything there are quotes that portray that as vain babbling or even blasphemy.

We also know that this book was used to defend the practice of pray reading in the law courts as a practice that is fundamental to Christianity, yet as soon as that purpose was fulfilled it was discarded. LSM doesn't even list this book as one that can be ordered.

We don't know the reason why they felt it was useful to defend their practice as Biblical and a "recovered truth" and yet not useful to teach the practice to the saints. The only thing we do know is that when EM, KR, RG or BP teaches that Pray Reading of WL's books is scriptural and a recovered truth, that they know this is a lie.

"Authority for truth and practice among the believers must rest solely upon the Word of God with any review of church history serving as confirmation and encouragement." (Ray Graver, Lord Thou Saidst..., LSM, 1981, p.35)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

We don't know the reason why they felt it was useful to defend their practice as Biblical and a "recovered truth" and yet not useful to teach the practice to the saints. The only thing we do know is that when EM, KR, RG or BP teaches that Pray Reading of WL's books is scriptural and a recovered truth, that they know this is a lie.

This is classic LSM equivocation to deceive the faithful. These wordsmiths at LSM will scour 2 millennia of Christian writings to prove that praying the word of God has been practice by noted men of God for like ... forever.

Then they teach their people to pray-read Lee's books, as if this is the same thing, and call it part of our "recovered" heritage. So deceptive.

Even more troubling is knowing this is a blatant lie, and yet continuing to teach it and practice it. To lie in this way is to walk in the darkness, deceiving themselves, making Him a liar, and the truth is not in them. (I John 1.5-10)

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is classic LSM equivocation to deceive the faithful. These wordsmiths at LSM will scour 2 millennia of Christian writings to prove that praying the word of God has been practice by noted men of God for like ... forever.

Then they teach their people to pray-read Lee's books, as if this is the same thing, and call it part of our "recovered" heritage. So deceptive.

Even more troubling is knowing this is a blatant lie, and yet continuing to teach it and practice it. To lie in this way is to walk in the darkness, deceiving themselves, making Him a liar, and the truth is not in them. (I John 1.5-10)

"As we examine the lives and writings of these faithful ones, it is evident that their usefulness, their vitality, and their insight issued directly from personal, consecrated times of handling God's Word by prayer. They had discovered the intimate and vital relationship between God's word and prayer." (Ray Graver, Lord Thou saidst..., LSM, 1981, p.11)

A time of handling God's word with prayer is a consecrated time. The same is true of a time of meeting between God and His people around Jesus Christ. To profane those times by substituting WL's words for God's words is why John Bunyan called it blasphemy.

6 but whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Causing someone to stumble is not to cause them to sin, but to cause them to stop following the Lord, to trip them up. Jesus is the incarnated word of God. He has given us His body and blood to eat. Substituting WL's words for the word of God, that is to trip them up in their following of the Lord.

7 Woe unto the world because of occasions of stumbling! for it must needs be that the occasions come; but woe to that man through whom the occasion cometh!

I find it interesting that the Lord realizes the world would be the "occasions of stumbling". This perversion is simply to force people to buy the books and ministry they were selling.

[Raptor]

Chicago Bibles & Books

http://www.biblesandbooksonline.com/...d-thou-saidst/