Another brick in the wall, part 2

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Back in my earliest days, there was this concept, based on Lee's previous teachings about building up, that we were like "bricks in a wall," and that the fellowship we had was the "mortar" that held us together. Gene Gruhler did not just dream up that metaphor about the building of God, he got it from Lee, but alas ... poor Gene was not up-to-date, and thus needed correction by our abusive "headmaster." .

Pink Floyd's "The Wall" album was hugely successful. I think it was the Number One album on the charts for something like 21 weeks.

I found the irony of the album and movie to be on two fronts. First, that the protagonist "Pink" had his father killed in the War fighting against fascism, then he gets disillusioned with the liberal post-war political/social/economic system and he himself becomes a fascist leader.

The second irony, a little more hidden, was that the "Allies", particularly the U.S and Great Britain, had successfully thwarted a violent power grab by Hirohito, Hitler et al, but the children of the supposedly sacrificial "greatest generation", we who were known as the post-war "baby boomers", were so disaffected. The album was about despair, isolation, anger, shame, frustration, and violence. So I wonder, if we had "won the war" why were the kids so unhappy? Why were we taking benzos and smoking reefer and cursing the "pigs" (police)?

Again, this wasn't some marginal album on the fringes of popular culture. It absolutely dominated the popular culture when it came out.

What does that have to do with local church discussions? Well, this former disaffected dope smoker used to love the meetings of the local church. As I said, we would all talk about what total losers we all were; all our failures with our parents and children and husbands and wives and bosses and subordinates, and how the mercy of God could penetrate any mess we got into. Every meeting turned into a celebration of redemption. I loved it. Here were people just as screwed up as I was, and it was okay. It felt like I was back at the keg party, only instead of plastic cups of beer they were passing around the Holy Spirit.

Eventually things changed. Big Brother kept showing up with a master program, and we all kept trying to line up with it, and failing. Eventually I left. I didn't see the connection at the time. I just felt, "Okay, back to Christianity". But looking back I can definitely see the dark clouds gathering... I have already written about being with the FTTA and hearing the "trainer" tell us, "Don't waste your time" with the poor, the sick, the crippled, the old; with those who have no way to repay us in this age. Just focus on the "good material". I was like, "Whaaaa?" Stuff like that kept surfacing, and it went from being the exception to being the rule.

Originally Posted by Ohio

That old nun, who looked just like the wicked witch of the west, just exploded all over me. My right arm had welts up and down from her tirade. Thankfully I remained silent and motionless during the beating, probably thinking that it will only get worse if my dad got wind of it.

The meetings of the local churches used to be a place where we could all tell our stories. And God's mercy would eventually shine through, in all of them. Nobody was beyond God's reach. It was awsome. It was like this great, collective, "Take that, Satan!" moment, from us all who had been abused by "the system". We really felt like we were stepping on the serpent's head.

But eventually "the system" took control. And so here we are, on a website called Local Church Discussions. See my point?

[awareness]

Living stones don't need no mind control. Bricks in the wall is group-think, and bewitching of minds.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Living stones don't need no mind control. Bricks in the wall is group-think, and bewitching of minds.

Pink Floyd's 'The Wall' is a good cultural reference point; I used to think, after becoming a Christian, how that band laid the groundwork for the gospel. They had a song on another album called "Welcome to the Machine". It played in my house constantly, for years and years.

Pink Floyd's lyrics were about isolation, alienation, despair, frustration, anger. You listen to that music and it seems as if you have two choices: either commit suicide and end the pain (see e.g. their song "Goodbye Cruel World"), or do more drugs and tune out (see e.g. "Comfortably Numb"). Thankfully you could also choose to believe into Jesus Christ, repent and obey the Gospel of God's heavenly kingdom, and leave the earthly madness machine behind.

Of course, the gospel road is not without its own perils (see e.g. the Witness Lee Mind Control Church)

http://newjerusalem12.wordpress.com/about/

But it is good to have your mind controlled (sorry awareness), but by whom? By the Holy Spirit of God?

Psalm 143:10 "Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground."

John 16:13 "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

John 14:16,17 "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth."

Or should we be controlled by something else? Should we believe that some human in the flesh today is capable of personifying the Spirit of truth? Go to one of the LSM apologist blogs or web sites like the one above and you will get a verse followed by "so we can see that"; the so-called 'apostle of the age' has determined what that verse signifies for every believer at all times. It seems as though God is now speaking to us through His apostle, so what need for the Spirit? Or, what need for discussion? Or is this supposed 'apostle' in fact the sole manifestation of what the Spirit is speaking to the churches today - God's lonely oracle?

Welcome my son/welcome to the machine/
Where have you been/it's all right, we know just where you've been.
So welcome to the machine.

[Ohio]

Since we have launched into some of the music that affected us in our youth, the continued emphasis on the New Jerusalem at LSM reminds of the final segment of that old Genesis showstopper Supper's Ready ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upi6wpANBh4

There's an Angel standing in the sun
And He's crying with a loud voice
"This is the supper of the mighty One"
The Lord of Lords, King of Kings
Has returned to lead His children home
To take them to the new Jerusalem

Seeing Gabriel in his many costumes, finishing a 33 minute encore, I just thought the reference to the New Jerusalem was neat. "Hey look at this nifty 'supper' I found in the Bible." Unlike aron, I rarely paid attention to the hidden meaning of lyrics. As a kid hooked on Yes, I'd have to be crazy to search for understanding in Anderson's lyrics. Vocals were just another instrument to me. It was all about the music, the energy, the creativity, the complexity of prog-rock.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

As a kid hooked on Yes, I'd have to be crazy to search for understanding in Anderson's lyrics. Vocals were just another instrument to me. It was all about the music, the energy, the creativity, the complexity of prog-rock.

I was one of those loners who sat in his bedroom with the album cover, morosely obsessing on the lyrics. Yes was too happy for me, anyway. It made me feel that I was missing life, to hear upbeat music.

But Pink Floyd was great. Mope rock supreme. And they arguably reigned in the 1970s so I was not the only moper.

Brings to mind another great '70s dystopian prog-rock masterpiece. 2112 by Rush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZqSVTyYIkI

I can also hear echoes of Big Brother in Anaheim at the end of the side 1's Grand Finale:

"Attention all planets of the solar federation: We have assumed control. We have assumed control."

[aron]

Oh, and don't forget the minstrels of woe called the "Rolling Stones", who would sing dirges for a fee:

"19th nervous breakdown"

"Paint it black"

"Can't get no satisfaction"

"Get off of my cloud"

"Under my thumb"

"Heart of stone"

And so forth.

[aron]

For some reason this theme also suggests a line from a '30s dystopian prog rock masterpiece:

"Pay no attention to the little man behind the curtain!"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I was one of those loners who sat in his bedroom with the album cover, morosely obsessing on the lyrics. Yes was too happy for me, anyway. It made me feel that I was missing life, to hear upbeat music.

That is too funny, since I had such a reputation, before I was saved, as being such a downer. I was widely labeled a pessimist. One of my favorite Yes classics had these lyrics ...

Close to the edge, down by the river.
Down at the end, round by the corner.
Seasons will pass you by,
Now that it's all over and done,
Called to the seed, right to the sun.
Now that you find, now that you're whole.
Seasons will pass you by,
I get up, I get down.
I get up, I get down.
I get up, I get down.
I get up.

Before (and after) I was saved, I seriously thought that all happy people were Christians. Probably I arrived at that conclusion since all the contented folks in my life were still involved with the Catholic church, while all my closest friends were miserable like me and were all backsliding Catholics.

After I was incredibly saved, I told everyone about finding Jesus. To my dismay, all my "happy" acquaintances seemed to care little for what happened to me, while most of my miserable friends listened intently.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That is too funny, since I had such a reputation, before I was saved, as being such a downer. I was widely labeled a pessimist.

Actually I was being facetious in saying that "Yes" was too happy for me. I did have one of their albums and liked it. "Fragile". The bass player Chris Squire (sp?) was incredible. I also liked British prog rockers Jethro Tull.

Also liked folk music: Joan Baez, Bobby Dylan, Pete Seeger, Gordon Lightfoot, Judy Collins. When I arrived in the local churches, a lot of the melodies of the home-made 'spiritual songs' were in the Beatles/Dylan folkish vein, and I related to them.

Today I like some Christian music. I admit that most of it is dreck to me; just weak copies of "popular" music -- which popular music itself is rudimentarily and poorly made -- with generic Christian lyrics tacked on. Or introspective shoe-gazing, no different from secular stuff. Just maybe a few biblical allusions to make it "Christian". And people jumping up and down and shouting over music doesn't make it any better, or more spiritual. It is just as vain, to me, as chanting LSM outlines. You are getting yourself all worked up over shallow material; becoming excited doesn't make it any deeper, or revelatory of God.

But, there is some really incredible Christian music out there. You just have to wade through it all and find the good stuff. And it is worth it. There are some good and talented and hard-working Christian musicians who also have real lyrical content; content that only grows deeper the more you listen. It hits you on different levels, as you get "into" the song. Familiarity (i.e. repetition) does not breed ennui or contempt, but rather brings me to the Holy Spirit of God. And sorry, folks, these musicians are not "meeting on local ground".

I'm not going to name-check any Christian music out there -- you have to find it yourself. And some of us would probably disagree anyway. Music is certainly a subjective experience.

Originally Posted by Ohio

After I was incredibly saved, I told everyone about finding Jesus. To my dismay, all my "happy" acquaintances seemed to care little for what happened to me, while most of my miserable friends listened intently.

Nobody is too "down" for God's mercy to find them. I usually find the most attentive listeners to be those who feel abandoned by life. And confessing the Lord Jesus Christ brings the most incredible "trip" of all. As Jerry Garcia used to sing, "The bus came by and I got on/that's when it all began." As a survivor of the '70s counterculture, I can say, "amen" to that. One day I got on the "Jesus" bus, and what a ride it has been! Praise God!

Originally Posted by aron

Pink Floyd's lyrics were about isolation, alienation, despair, frustration, anger. You listen to that music and it seems as if you have two choices: either commit suicide and end the pain (see "Goodbye Cruel World"), or do more drugs and tune out (see "Comfortably Numb")...

Today when I see "Goths" and "Metal heads" who express "Life sucks and then you die" in some form, I am neither surprised or dismayed: they are just being honest. I was there, once; and yes, life sucks without the Spirit of Jesus. You are cut off from the peace, the joy, the power that raised Him up from the dead and gave Him glory. That same power is now waiting "to give life to your mortal bodies", as Paul put it in Romans 8.

And there's some pretty good music waiting for you too! Such music has not been a "fringe benefit" but rather intrinsic to the process. I know that I sound like Witness Lee here to some degree but it was part of my journey. Like I said, the bus came by and I got on...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Also liked folk music: Joan Baez, Bobby Dylan, Pete Seeger, Gordon Lightfoot, Judy Collins. When I arrived in the local churches, a lot of the melodies of the home-made 'spiritual songs' were in the Beatles/Dylan folkish vein, and I related to them.

As a youngster, I was always anti-pop-top-40, caring nothing for folk music or acoustic guitars. But when I first entered the church life, these rewritten popular tunes helped me to praise God and be filled in the Spirit. It was only after singing these songs repeatedly did I learn from others that "Yellow Submarine" was a Beatles song.

Song-writing seems to be a natural fruit of the Spirit's moving, as evidenced in those early days. After Max was ejected, with the surrounding crises which engulfed us, Witness Lee and company put the skids on song-writing, demanding that we sing from only his hymnal. In this regard LSM was no different than power-hungry politicians, who never let a good crisis go to waste without ratcheting up the restrictions and subsequent loss of liberty.

Howard Higashi then became a notable exception as a gospel song writer in the Recovery. Apparently he was blissfully making music to the Lord, speaking the gospel to many young people, when he suddenly discovered that he might be "doing his own thing," and came under the critical eye of those LSM bureaucrats. Still stinging from a groveling repentance for supporting Max, poor Howard turned all his work over to LSM for official "approval."

LSM is well aware of how Christian music can fuel "insurrections," and thus took decisive action to quarantine Titus Chu for contaminating the young people with "worldly" musical instruments like drums and electric guitars.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

... rewritten popular tunes helped me to praise God and be filled in the Spirit. It was only after singing these songs repeatedly did I learn from others that "Yellow Submarine" was a Beetles song..

Too funny! In my local church assembly there were a bunch of foreigners who likewise didn't know we were copping Elvis Presley and the Beach Boys.

Originally Posted by Ohio

... Song-writing seems to be a natural fruit of the Spirit's moving, as evidenced in those early days. After Max was ejected, with the surrounding crises which engulfed us, Witness Lee and company put the skids on song-writing, demanding that we sing from only his hymnal. In this regard LSM was no different than power-hungry politicians, who never let a good crisis go to waste without ratcheting up the restrictions and subsequent loss of liberty...

Your analogy is perhaps more apt than you know. Incompetent politicians' errors in statecraft and budgetary oversight allow crises (both foreign and domestic) to balloon, at which point they tell us that if only they were given more power they could solve all of our woes. WL, in retrospect, matched that behavioral mode to a "t".

The other thing, as I have pointed out elsewhere, is that WL didn't want local church saints to be singing songs originating in "Christianity". Supposedly there was no Spirit there, absent the "local ground", so any inspiration was soulish and a sham. Right? So if songs from the "Jesus movement", for example, were percolating around the local church campfires and home meetings, that might give the impression that the Spirit might be moving elsewhere, as you say. And of course, that could never happen! Right?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

...people jumping up and down and shouting over music doesn't make it any better, or more spiritual. It is just as vain, to me, as chanting LSM outlines. You are getting yourself all worked up over shallow material; becoming excited doesn't make it any deeper, or revelatory of God.
...

Now, I have only watched a few 'Hillsong' videos, and likewise 'Jesus Culture' and Chris Tomlin and the rest. I usually listen to half a song, or parts of 2 or 3 videos, and go, "Nah", and go somewhere else. So what follows is a randomly chosen 'Jesus Culture' song that struck me as kind of representative of the whole genre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs1XRyIvEfU

The refrain says:

Where you go I go/what you say I say God/what you pray I pray/what you pray I pray...

But what did Jesus pray? It doesn't tell me, nor point me in any helpful direction, that I can discern. It just makes a generic statement and I am supposed to be inspired, and satisfied, but I am not. As I said, music is subjective; some have surely been inspired by these songs, and my lack of satisfaction may be due as much to my attitude as much as anything else.

So I will leave my point here. But I will try to show that I find LSM to be as "shallow" as Jesus Culture's pop songs. And I will do so in two ways.

First, as I have pointed out with the Psalms, WL/LSM dismissed probably 2/3 to 3/4 of the text. Perhaps more; perhaps 80%. Anyway, the bulk of the material was rejected as "natural" and "fallen". Given that the Psalms are easily the biggest book of the Bible - and quoted, what, 70 times in the NT? - the damage done to the revelation of God's word is extreme. And Psalms is only one egregious example among many: Job, James, and Peter's epistles also come to mind.

Now, there's a lot of the Bible I also don't understand. Isaiah, for example, is pretty mysterious to me. But I don't pretend that it's irrelevant of my (and others') consideration. I just admit that I don't "get" everything. And get this: WL sold his ministry as the "High peak"!

The second reason I have come to realize that WL's interpretive wares were shallow was because he didn't access the Fathers. When the RCC broke off from the Orthodox Church circa 1,000 AD they lost/ignored a lot of the ancient writings, commentaries which dated to a few generations of Jesus Christ. So when Luther/Calvin/et al broke off from the RCC 500 years later their interpretive skills were used on the text tabula rasa. In other words they used the text and their textual/linguistic skills and their logic to make "sense" of it all. WL from what I can tell followed this pattern. He just said, "This is what the text says to me", which became "This is what the text says to us."

Again, I have not exhaustively read "the Fathers", so I will not name drop here; and I am not an expert at comparing their work to the post-Reformation, post-Calvin theology. But now that I am aware of their work I don't pretend that it doesn't exist. WL was in a hurry to get his wares on the bookshelves so he had to do a lot of shortcuts, and sell his output as the "conclusion of the New Testament."

Thus, a shallow ministry. At least Kim Walker and Jesus Culture don't pretend that they have the last word, and all other ministries should now fall silent. I will give them that. But if I do ever meet them, I will try to point them to what I believe Jesus prayed.

And I will repeat my point that shouting WL's phraseology don't make his words any less shallow. Your "feeling of life" is no different than jumping up and down and getting excited at a Jesus Culture music festival. Your nervous system has been stimulated; don't assume that your spirit has likewise been filled.

Or put it another way: shouting "See Spot Run" doesn't mean you are covering Shakespeare. You are just shouting "See Spot Run".

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I have only watched a few 'Hillsong' videos, and likewise 'Jesus Culture' and Chris Tomlin... shouting "See Spot Run" doesn't mean you are covering Shakespeare. You are just shouting "See Spot Run".

I hope I have not been too quickly dismissive of the 'Jesus Culture' song in question, nor the genre. To be fair, after the "what you pray I pray" refrain, the song's lyrics say that Jesus only did what He saw the Father doing (e.g. John 5:9), which is a good and necessary thing to say.

And I like the "spirit of the song", and of Jesus Culture in general: they appear dedicated, and reverent. I am only trying to make the point that there are depths and depths beyond "What you pray I pray", which in fact the scriptures can lead us to, and we should not be content with merely making a general statement, no matter how fervently, and just leaving it at that.

And I am not accusing Jesus Culture of doing so. Perhaps after this song someone gave a powerful message on exactly what I am saying. But this statement "What you say I say/what you pray I pray" is of itself merely the equivalent of saying "See Spot Run". And merely shouting it loudly and going home drenched with sweat doesn't mean you have taken it anywhere, or that it has taken you anywhere.

But I feel much less forgiving with LSM's oeuvre because I was there, and they sold us WL's shallow ministry as the definitive, final, 'consummate' and 'crystallized' high peak truth. And if we shouted it repeatedly: Oh boy, it was rocket fuel to take us right to the top! We were gonna end the age! Just scream WL's phrases right at each other!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I was one of those loners who sat in his bedroom with the album cover, morosely obsessing on the lyrics. Yes was too happy for me, anyway. It made me feel that I was missing life, to hear upbeat music.

But Pink Floyd was great. Mope rock supreme. And they arguably reigned in the 1970s so I was not the only moper.

Brings to mind another great '70s dystopian prog-rock masterpiece. 2112 by Rush.

We can't be talking great dystopian prog-rock masterpieces without my nomination of King Crimson's Epitaph.

That ballad embodied the generation's anti-political downer mood. Anyone "morosely obsessing lyrics in his bedroom" has to have had long sessions with that album and a set of headphones.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We can't be talking great dystopian prog-rock masterpieces without my nomination ...[which] embodied [our] generation's anti-political downer mood.

Good thing we never met back in the day. What an incalculable difference it has made, to be on this side of the gospel divide! I never cease to be thankful that I have received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. God bless.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Good thing we never met back in the day. What an incalculable difference it has made, to be on this side of the gospel divide! I never cease to be thankful that I have received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. God bless.

Not sure why that was such a good thing, but yes we are together on this side of the divide.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not sure why that was such a good thing,

Because I had enough dystopian fantasies swirling in my head... King Crimson might have sent me over the edge! My influence on you probably wouldn't have been beneficial, either.

Originally Posted by Ohio

but yes we are together on this side of the divide.

We are together in "the fellowship of the King". The real recovery is not of some truth, teaching, ministry, or organizational principle. The real recovery is to be recovered back to our Father in heaven through believing into the name of His Son Jesus Christ, who is our Lord. And we are recovered [redeemed from the world, self, sin and death] not individually, but together.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

... I find LSM to be as "shallow" as Jesus Culture's pop songs... he didn't access the Fathers... WL was in a hurry to get his wares on the bookshelves so he had to do a lot of shortcuts, and sell his output as the "conclusion of the New Testament."

I was looking recently at a website for the full time training in Malaysia. They have a page on "the church Fathers". To say that it was superficial would be an insult to the word.

Clement of Alexandria (155-215AD) Born in Athens. A disciple of Pantaenus and later an eminent teacher in Alexandria. Emphatically expounded the work of the "Logos", Christ, which became the flesh.

The full page is here: http://www.localchurch.cc/churchis.asp#chsmk2

Most of the entries reference them so far as they buttress WL's trinitarian, Christological, and ecclesiastical convictions. Mind you, I find none of it false, per se, but the idea that one or two sentences in a parade of entries shows you anything at all is ludicrous. And the problem is you could go for several years through this "training" and that's all you will get. The only time Tertullian is mentioned is if someone is puffing up WL's spiritual insight and you need to appeal to some "authority". Then you maybe get 3 sentences from Tertullian.

As I said, this takes superficiality to a new dimension. All the while this college-graduate "trainee" is being continually congratulated that they didn't need to go to a seminary but instead got the "ministry of the age." As Foghorn Leghorn would say, "That's a joke, son."

I'm no scholar but what little I've read on and by the church Fathers is quite different. To quote another famous comedian, Lloyd Benson, "Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy. Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy."

The LSM people putting out the church Fathers to support the validity of their exegetical efforts makes me feel like Lloyd Benson. As he concluded, "Your comparison was unwarranted."

Originally Posted by aron

And I will repeat my point that shouting WL's phraseology don't make his words any less shallow... Or put it another way: shouting "See Spot Run" doesn't mean you are covering Shakespeare. You are just shouting "See Spot Run".

Likewise, citing the Fathers doesn't make your theology more solid, or your spirituality more deep. Let's not kid ourselves here. As I said, I myself am no expert, and surely my spiritual depth is likely marginal at best. But I'm not running a full time training, either. I'm not pretending to be something.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I was looking recently at a website for the full time training in Malaysia. They have a page on "the church Fathers". To say that it was superficial would be an insult to the word.

The only reason LSM cites the Church Fathers is to support their "high peak" theology. Hence, of Athanasius they write,

"Contributed to the finalization of the Nicene Creed. Later became bishop of Alexandria. All his life was a champion of orthodoxy against Arianism and for the deity of Christ. In his On the Incarnation of the Word of God explicitly stated, "For He was made man that we might be made God."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The only reason LSM cites the Church Fathers is to support their "high peak" theology.

That was exactly my point. Otherwise, they are completely disinterested in them. And if one of LSM's saints did become interested, and actively engaged in either the Fathers or in the secondary literature, they would be dissuaded by fellowship from local church authorities, and guided back to being "in coordination" with the latest speaking. After all, WN read everything, so why bother?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What does that have to do with local church discussions? Well, this former disaffected dope smoker used to love the meetings of the local church. As I said, we would all talk about what total losers we all were; all our failures with our parents and children and husbands and wives and bosses and subordinates, and how the mercy of God could penetrate any mess we got into. Every meeting turned into a celebration of redemption. I loved it. Here were people just as screwed up as I was, and it was okay. It felt like I was back at the keg party, only instead of plastic cups of beer they were passing around the Holy Spirit.

Eventually things changed. Big Brother kept showing up with a master program, and we all kept trying to line up with it, and failing.

The meetings of the local churches used to be a place where we could all tell our stories. And God's mercy would eventually shine through, in all of them. Nobody was beyond God's reach. It was awesome. It was like this great, collective, "Take that, Satan!" moment, from us all who had been abused by "the system". We really felt like we were stepping on the serpent's head.

But eventually "the system" took control.

There was absolutely no way to compare the "thrill" of those early gatherings with the oppressive indoctrination sessions which later evolved. And it was not the natural progression of the Spirit of God growing within God's "messed up" children. We were continually subjected to ever changing mandates from headquarters where "Big Brother," the one who can "see" things we cannot, issued his regular decrees.

I can still remember my bewilderment upon learning that our testimony time, after the time of ministry, would be ending. "Too many sea-stories." What's a sea-story? "Brudder Lee feels the testimony time is dragging on." What does Brother Lee know about our testimony times? "The church is taking a new direction in the meetings." What do you mean? That's the best time of the meeting. "Trust the Lord; you'll see how the Lord will bless us from following Brudder Lee."

Eventually I learned that the only testimonies that were officially approved were the ones cheerleading the ministry. Personal testimonies by the saints would often be abruptly concluded with "thank you brother, very good, thank you brother." It was all a part of Big Brother's master plan. He called it "God's economy," but actually it was "Lee's economy."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Eventually I learned that the only testimonies that were officially approved were the ones cheerleading the ministry. Personal testimonies by the saints would often be abruptly concluded with "thank you brother, very good, thank you brother." It was all a part of Big Brother's master plan. He called it "God's economy," but actually it was "Lee's economy."

I found personal testimonies more helpful than that of "cheerleading the ministry". Ministry cheerleaders were spiritually "clanging cymbals". While personal testimonies were products of a sister's or brother's daily experience of Christ during the week.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

I found personal testimonies more helpful than that of "cheerleading the ministry". Ministry cheerleaders were spiritually "clanging cymbals". While personal testimonies were products of a sister's or brother's daily experience of Christ during the week.

I met before the HWMR dominated the meeting. In my local church we met "on the local ground", but other than that anything goes. You could bring a tuba to a meeting if you wanted. Sometimes we'd have visitors drop in, and we'd let them take over. If they wanted to talk, hey, go for it. Christians, agnostics, confused philosophers, whatever; go for it. We felt the Spirit was in charge. Some of the meetings were absolutely amazing.

And yes, many of the saints had "slow speech and halting tongue", as Moses complained before God. But we all felt what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 12:22-24, that "...the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,…"

The "members that lacked" would get up and stammer out something and we could sense the "more abundant honor". Of course sometimes it seemed tedious to hear someone prattle on, but it really was an encouragement to all. Because you would hear the most pathetic speaker and go, "Gee, even I can do that". It really was an encouragement.

Just standing up and reciting a bullet point, or what you "got" from this week's HWMR, became a different meeting entirely. It became a "ministry meeting", not a local church meeting.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I met before the HWMR dominated the meeting. In my local church we met "on the local ground", but other than that anything goes. You could bring a tuba to a meeting if you wanted..

I had some comments to make, but wanted to spare the "Lily Hsu/Dana Roberts" thread from further extraneous commentary. So I'll move some posts over here.

Originally Posted by HERn

In the early 1970s I heard a preacher say that syncopated music was the devil's music. Preachers say a lot of things.

Originally Posted by awareness

I remember when rock was called Satan's music. Well he must no longer be a fan of rock and is now into Rap ...

Oh how we use Satan to put people and their ways down.

Originally Posted by OBW

The style might be. But in the churches that reject it currently as being "of the present evil age" when it is otherwise part of their culture. For us WASPs, hip hop is probably not going to be coming any time soon. Just as songs written to Beatles tunes is not likely coming to African American churches. Nothing wrong with either set of churches or their music — new or old.

And the issues is primarily among the kind of fundamentalism that does (did) things like preach against toilets and bathtubs inside of houses decades ago, but all allow them in today. Who decry songs in the "current" style, but now have songs from the popular styles of a generation or two past (that they were busy preaching against back then).

That was the point.

At the beginning of this thread, I mentioned how I liked the downer music of Pink Floyd, Black Sabbath, and the Who. Disaffected youth.

Then I got saved and got a "new song", and shortly thereafter was in the LC meetings singing not only the venerable Christian hymns and the Witness Lee knock-offs of those hymns, but also spiritual songs of every type and stripe.

As I said, you'd go to a Lord's Table meeting and whatever instruments were brought in, we'd make a racket. We had a guy who used to play piano in saloons, and someone else played violin at the conservatory. Everyone would chip in. And you never knew who might walk in the door, and what song would be called. It was better than a Grateful Dead concert, I felt.

"The bus came by and I got on/That's when it all began". It made this ex-hippie truly reborn. All the freaks and weirdos were now in the Local Church. As I said, it was "anything goes", and that uncertainty really made the music seem like a "new song."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

I've come to receive hymns composed by Chris Tomlin and other contemporary Christian composers as being God inspired. Though I know in the Local Churches, their God-inspired songwriting is criticized, ridiculed, etc as being "wordly", "fleshly", etc.

I've been out of the LC for a while now, and wanted to share something of my journey. I went straight into fallen Christianity, into a Pentacostal-flavored church with a Worship team up front and drums and bass and electric guitar, with several female singers swaying and clapping and the song lyrics projected on a scrim in front of the congregation. I hated it. I still do. But it was where the Christians were, and I refused to segregate myself because their music was awful.

What I can't stand: the banging drums. Modern P&W music is worst: "Bang-bang-bang" monotone. Trying to agitate me into some altered state. I don't like people deliberately tampering with my nervous system. (ironic, I know, that I once loved Rush, Black Sabbath and the Doors). I don't mind drums, but banging on them like a child in the kitchen with pots and pans makes me instantly grate my teeth. Thump-thump-thump, over and over again. Please, stop.

Maudlin, emotional, sappy lyrics. Can't stand them. Self-absorbed, not Jesus-absorbed. Also, Jesus-absorbed lyrics which are completely unrelated to the Bible. The narrator imagines this or that, all the while oblivious to what actually was written. Or totally misapplied what was written. The Bible contains pronouns: "you" and "we" and "them" and "my" and so forth. All these designate various parties. Some are holy, some are struggling to get there. But all of this objective, expressly-stated truth is ignored in a sappy musical mishmash of adolescent treacle. I can't stand it. I feel like I'm being punished and sent back to 10th grade in high school.

Yes, I am a sneering, holier-than-thou hypocrite. I was well-trained in the LC. Which is why I went resolutely back into Christianity, and remained there. Now I want to tell what happened.

I still hate 99.6% of CCM. But the 0.4% that I like, I absolutely love. I really had to do a lot of searching, and rejecting, but what I liked became the proverbial "new song" that Revelation 5:9 references*. The song's composer finds an accessible melodic line, and the words direct me to the Word, who Himself ushers me to the Father. The Holy Spirit breathes life into the song, and I'm forced to reconsider everything.

My latest find, the other day, had a refrain that referenced verses I was somewhat familiar with, but it lit them up in blazing glory I'd never considered. It was like being Martin Luther, long-indoctrinated in the RCC, one day reading the Epistle to the Romans and suddenly the light goes on. Our experience with the Word can be like that, still: brilliant light pours in, and we blink uncomprehendingly; we're in the presence of something wonderful, but exactly what we aren't yet sure.** But the Spirit is breathing into us the breath of life. The Spirit is here. The Shepherd is speaking, and the sheep can hear His voice. We may not understand it, fully; but we hear it.

Good music is worth the search. Seek and ye shall find. To all you LC expatriates out there: seek and ye shall find. There is, indeed, a new song. If we are willing, God is able.

*See also Psa 33:3, 40:3, 98:1, 149:1; also Isa 42:10
** See Mark 10:26, "They were astonished beyond measure"; also Mark 7:37. Cf John 20:9, "... but they did not yet comprehend".

[OBW]

My take on the music is that a lot of it is decent to listen to on the radio. But too much of it is not designed for congregation singing. And a fair bit of it is theologically weak to bad. Of course there are a number of hymns with similarly bad theology.

As an aside . . .

On Sunday mornings, my wife and I often listen to the radio on the way to church and mostly it turns out to be First Baptist Dallas. We seldom hear much of the sermon, if any, but usually a significant portion of the worship. I would not be particularly thrilled to be hearing their version every Sunday. Our little volunteer band is much more appealing, even if not as accomplished.

But last Sunday we did hear a little of Jeffers' sermon. He started by talking about the worship music. And about how some of both the praise and worship songs, and the older hymns, were not always theologically sound. Then he mentioned that at Easter they have always sung a particular hymn — He Lives. He said he loved the song . . . until it came to the last line of the chorus. "You ask me how I know he lives. He lives within my heart!"

He said of all the evidences that Jesus lives, how did that one come up as the one to tell someone else. Something so subjective. Something that might seem true today, but doesn't seem so when things get rough. And while it is theologically correct, the fact is not evidence that He lives. Just as statement that it is so (that we believe).