“Local Church ‘Cult’ Label has stuck”—says LSM Star turned Academic

[awareness]

I brought this from the main forum, from the thread by same name, so while we're waiting for DCP, er, ah, I mean 'unregistered guest, to respond (if they ever do), we can discuss it here.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Response by Nigel Tomes
to the Post by “Unregistered Guest” 31 Aug. 2015

Dear “Unregistered Guest,”

Thank you for your response to my piece. Your comments (along with the posts of prior contributors to this thread) provide additional insights on the topic. I do not usually respond personally to comments on my articles. In this case, however, there are grounds to believe this comment originated from LSM’s Defense & Confirmation Project (DCP); plus the style and tone match those of DCP (in my view). Therefore, I shall respond in person.

1. Quoting for Zimmerman-Liu/Wright’s draft article

You are correct in asserting that my article quotes & cites Zimmerman-Liu/Wright’s draft article (April 2014), rather than the final published version (May, 2015). I made that fact clear in my article. Since the Zimmerman-Liu & Wright’s draft article (upon which my piece was based) was available on-line for free, it was more accessible & affordable for Forum members than the final published version, priced at $30 US [$40 CAN]. Unlike LSM/DCP operatives most contributors to this Forum are not financed by an organization with substantial resources.

Since the draft version of Zimmerman-Liu/Wright’s article correlates 99% with the final published version the draft’s “Please do not cite or quote...” request is abrogated upon publication. Your complaint on this score is misinformed; it is a typical of “red herrings” thrown out by DCP. As Witness Lee liked to say, “You are blowing the hair to find a fault.” I have not received any such complaint from the authors; I stand by the statement that my “quotations from T. Zimmerman-Liu & T. Wright’s papers fall within the parameters of ‘fair use’ for review purposes.”

2. Dongyang/Yiwu Incidents & the Shouters

Dear “Unregistered Guest,” your main point seems to be that the final, published version of Zimmerman-Liu/Wright’s article differs from the draft in its attribution of incidents at Dongyang/Yiwu in mainland China. The draft (which I quoted) said, “overseas Local Church leaders sent two representatives to Dongyang...to set up a local congregation there...” In contrast the published version (you quote) says, “TSPM leaders sent two representatives to Dongyang to set up a local chapter. However, Dongyang’s Christians did not welcome their arrival. Shortly thereafter, the TSPM representatives incited local cadres to violently break up various Christian meetings.”

I admit this difference escaped my notice. I thank you for pointing this out, and I stand corrected. This is the only substantive contribution of you post here. I would firstly ask: what are we to make of this discrepancy? Clearly, there are two competing accounts of events in China which (reportedly) served as a catalyst for the Chinese government’s crackdown of the “Shouters” sect associated with Witness Lee.

Zimmerman-Liu & Wright’s draft indicates that they were aware of reports that “overseas Local Church leaders [who] sent two representatives to Dongyang...to set up a local congregation...” Moreover, they attribute these reports to “the account of LSM leaders.” What did the LSM leaders tell the authors? Did the authors’ misunderstand? Did LSM’s leader misspeak? Presumably there is an audio recording somewhere of Teresa Zimmerman-Liu’s interviews with (unnamed) LSM’s leaders which might resolve this issue. I don’t have access to those recordings, if they still exist.

Secondly, I ask—what difference does the details of the Dongyang/Yiwu incident make? The overall facts are (as far as I know) not in dispute. As I wrote, Zimmerman-Liu/Wright state that after Chairman Mao’s death, “members of Local Church congregations outside China traveled to the mainland to seek out congregations that had gone underground during the Mao Era.” As a result of these efforts, “Local Church membership expanded quickly and dramatically, particularly in [China’s] inland areas.” Moreover, Zimmerman-Liu/Wright report that “Academics, church leaders, and CCP [China’s Communist Party] documents all agree that by 1983, the Chinese government was alarmed at the rapid growth & influence of the Local Churches throughout China.” So the [Chinese] government commissioned a “document [which] drew heavily on ...The God-Men & The Mind Benders. Using this critical report as its justification, the CCP branded the Local Churches/Shouters as a ‘cult.’ Indeed, the Local Churches head the list of ‘seven cults identified in [Government] the documents...” Here T. Zimmerman-Liu/Wright state unequivocally that, in China, “Local Churches,” are called “Shouters” by critics.

The net result of all this is that in China the “Local Churches,” are called “Shouters” and head the Government list of banned “evil cults.” This conclusion is independent of the details of the Dongyang/Yiwu incident which you seem so concerned with establishing. I’m afraid that you have “lost sight of the forest by being preoccupied with the trees.”

3. Wikipedia

You refer to Wikipedia’s entry on “The Shouters” and the Dongyang/Yiwu incidents. However, Wikipedia’s vulnerability to manipulation renders it unaccepted as arbiter on such issues. Wikipedia’s own disclaimer states “nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals with the expertise required to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information. … The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields.” For these reasons, I wrote, “This Wikipedia entry [on the Shouters] appears to suffer the problem of multiple, conflicting entries on a controversial issue and the lack of ‘quality control’.”

4. “Straining the Gnat, but Swallowing the Camel” (Mt. 23:24)

Dear “Unregistered Guest,” I am disappointed that you focussed exclusively on an historical event that occurred in China in 1983. Your laser focus on the Dongyang/Yiwu incident means you have addressed only 2% of my article and left the overwhelming majority—98%--unaddressed. I’m afraid that you have “strain out the gnat,” but have left “the Camel”—the more substantive issues. Those issues, related to China, include [1] Have LSM’s Local Churches in China been wrongly identified as “the Shouters”? [2] Are there any connections or linkages (formal or informal) between LSM’s Local Churches & “the Shouters”? [3] Is there any basis for claims that Witness Lee is (was) the head of the “Shouters”? [4] Were there any actions or behaviours by “the Shouters” which might have precipitated the Chinese Government’s labelling then an “evil cult”?

Rather than answer these questions one-by-one, allow me a brief response.

1. First (as pointed out by a contributor to this Forum) Witness Lee, himself acknowledged the existence of “the Shouters” in China. Rather than disassociating himself & LSM from “the Shouters,” he appraised their home meetings. W. Lee said: “Today in mainland China, Satan hates the churches that meet in the homes. These churches comprise more than 50 million believers. The authorities condemn the ‘shouters,’ who are predominantly those who meet in the homes...” [W. Lee, Crucial Words of Leading in the Lord's Recovery, Bk. 1, Ch. 10, Sect. 2]
2. Second, in a scholarly monograph “Redeemed by Fire: The Rise of Popular Christianity in Modern China,” published by Yale University Press in 2010, Dr. Lian Xi, Professor of History at Hanover College, traces developments from Watchman Nee’s “Little Flock” congregations in China to Witness Lee’s Local Church movement in Taiwan, N. America and China, referring to the practice of “calling on the Lord” or “Shouting.” Professor Lian Xi writes:

“A significant evolution of the Little Flock occurred while Nee was still alive but locked away in a labor camp. It began in Taiwan, under the leadership of Li Changshou [Witness Lee], one of Nee’s former lieutenants....After the late 1960s, Li took the Local Church (the Little Flock’s preferred self-designation) down a new path—in quest of what he called ‘the release of the spirit’ by way of ‘shouting.’ His followers later became known as the Shouters (Huhanpai).” [Lian Xi, Redeemed by Fire: The Rise of Popular Christianity in Modern China, Yale University Press (2010) p. 216]

“In 1962, Li [W. Lee] made a permanent move from Taiwan to Los Angeles, where he eventually established the Living Stream Ministry to oversee dozens of Little Flock congregations in a few U.S. cities. With a total of only about 5,000 in North America by the 1970s, Li’s scattered, though animated, congregations faced almost certain oblivion.” [Lian Xi, Redeemed by Fire, p. 217]

He further observes: “The ‘opening’ of China...lifted the Shouters of Southern California and their kin in Taiwan out of anonymity. As early as 1979, their evangels began to join the throngs of overseas Chinese and other foreign tourists who crossed into the mainland from Hong Kong. The bagfuls of Bibles and Shouters’ tracts (as well as occasional stacks of cash) that Li Changshou’s (aka Witness Lee’s) messengers brought were limited in amount. However, in the early 1980s, they represented spiritual, and material, fortunes to those underground church leaders who linked up with the overseas brethren. After Nee’s death, Li enjoyed an unrivaled privilege among the sect’s followers in China. As a result his doctrines struck fire almost overnight in underground congregations that were already disillusioned with the TSPM’s perceived adulterations of the Christian faith. In both the southeastern coastal provinces and the rural hinterland of Henan—two separate strongholds ...the Shouters built their major bases of operation. There was obvious buoyancy and vigor in the movement: the magic of ‘shouting’ was simple and easily acquired...In many rural Little Flock congregations in coastal China, ‘shouting’ broke out daily from 3:00 AM to 5:00 AM and resumed in the evenings...” [Lian Xi, Redeemed by Fire, p. 217] The last statements ought to remind readers of “calling on the Lord” in the 1970s.

Concerning events that might have precipitated the Government’s crackdown, Dr. Lian Xi writes: “In incidents in Zhejiang that recalled the Red Guards of the Cultural revolution, Li’s devotees armed with ‘big character posters’ stormed official churches, denounced the TSPM as the ‘great whore’ and pledged themselves to a battle with ‘the powers.’ ...The crackdown on the group as a ‘heretical cult’ (xiejiao) came in 1983 when, according to the government, the Shouters had already built a following of more than 200,000 ‘deluded people’ in 20 provinces....Two decades after it was outlawed, the Shouters sect reportedly grew to include 500,000 followers.” [Lian Xi, Redeemed by Fire, p. 218]

Rather than dismissing these accounts as implausible, readers ought to remember “embarrassing incidents” in N. America, like the disruption of “Founder’s Week” at Moody Bible Institute & the Church in Chicago’s march around MBI with cries of “Down with Babylon.” Recall the “Young Galileans” movement in Boston & NE USA. Plus think of the 1977 Berkeley conference (led by LSM soon-to-be ‘Blended Brothers’) and Max Rappaport’s simultaneous 1977 Chicago conference, both replete with scenes of anarchy & chaos. Against the backdrop of such incidents in the Lord’s Recovery in the US, the events reported in China don’t appear so implausible. The difference is that in the US freedom of speech & expression is upheld; China is a different story.

Dear “Unregistered Guest,” we might not like the tone of Dr. Lian Xi’s writing, however, most people & groups don’t get the luxury of writing their own history. Overlooking Prof. Lian Xi’s cynical tone, he provides a plausible account of the origin of the “Shouters” epithet attached to Witness Lee’s Local Church in China.

In a detailed review this book, Dr. G. Wright Doyle, editor of the Biographical Dictionary of Chinese Christianity, observed, “My guess is that Redeemed by Fire will provoke not a little consternation among Local Church leaders in the U.S., who have recently succeeded in having the label of ‘cult’ withdrawn by leading evangelical spokesmen. If Lian [Xi] is accurate, however, the ‘Shouters’ designation as a cult by the Chinese government might have some merit – a possibility that will be angrily denied by Li Changshou’s [W. Lee’s] disciples, who have not been shy about taking critics to court, claiming that this label will cause needless suffering to their brothers and sisters in China.” [Dr. G. Wright Doyle, Review of Redeemed by Fire: The Rise of Popular Christianity in Modern China, by Lian Xi, Global China Center, August 3, 2010.]

Please allow me to reiterate a major point of my article: It is disingenuous of LSM, DCP or other LSM-affiliates, to assert that “Living Stream Ministry and the...local churches it supports...have no connection or linkage, formally or informally, to...‘The Shouters’.” [DCP Contendingforthefaith 21 Dec 2012] LSM might wish (for obvious reasons) to disassociate itself from the “Eastern Lightning” and the ‘All Mighty God Sect’. However, to claim that LSM and its Local Churches have “no connection or linkage” even “informally, to...‘The Shouters’,” is patently false. The correlation between Witness Lee’s Local Churches & the “Shouters” in China might not be perfect (100%) but it is high enough to render this assertion by LSM/DCP dishonest & deceitful.

Numerous accounts by reputable China observers link Witness Lee & the Local Church with “the Shouters.” A recent DCP statement (June 10, 2014) observes that “reports in [China’s] official government news outlets identified Witness Lee as the head of ‘the Shouters’...” Do LSM & DCP also dispute that claim? Almost a decade ago, Tony Lambert observed that “The first cult to make nationwide impact in China were the ‘Shouters’ in the early 1980s. An offshoot of the biblically-based ‘Little Flock’ founded by Watchman Nee in the 1930s, the ‘Shouters’ looked for inspiration to Witness Lee, Watchman Nee’s chief lieutenant…” [Tony Lambert, China’s Christian Millions, Monarch Books, Oxford (2006) p. 122 (emphasis added)].

The “bottom line” of all this is that the “cult” label and the “Shouters” epithet have been firmly attached to the Local Churches in China associated with Witness Lee, Living Stream Ministry, Taiwan Gospel Book Room and their various affiliates. For 30+ years the “Shouters” affiliated with W. Lee & the Local Church have been on the Government list of banned evil cults; that’s not likely to change any time soon. Scholars Zimmerman-Liu & Wright conclude that the ‘cult’ label will remain affixed to Witness Lee’s Local Church in both North America & mainland China for the foreseeable future.

Nigel Tomes,
Toronto, CANADA,
September, 2015.



---------------------------------------

[Freedom]

[QUOTE=Nigel Tomes] However, to claim that LSM and its Local Churches have “no connection or linkage” even “informally, to...‘The Shouters’,” is patently false. The correlation between Witness Lee’s Local Churches & the “Shouters” in China might not be perfect (100%) but it is high enough to render this assertion by LSM/DCP dishonest & deceitful.[QUOTE]

The above expert is my take-away from what Nigel wrote. Because Lee himself called LC members in China ‘shouters’, it demonstrates just how deceitful the DCP is. The unregistered poster was concerned about Nigel’s usage of the Zimmerman-Liu/Wright article, but that post failed to address the larger issue at hand. The last time I visited the DCP website, I quickly came across their denial of there being any LC linkage to the Shouters in China. It is clear that they don’t like that link, and beyond the Shouters being labeled an “evil cult”, I think Nigel’s point is that there were valid reason that label was given rather than it being just something the government arbitrarily did.

Last year when the Eastern Lightning killed a potential recruit at a McDonalds, I think all the sudden the LC had a specific need to try to dispel any notion of a connection to the Shouters, because of course, the Eastern Lightning has a linkage to the Changshou sect, which is linked to the Shouters. On the DCP website, there is a specific denial of any linkage to the Eastern Lightning. I would ask the question, why is that necessary if there were no linkage to begin with? Do other Christian groups who have no linkage to the Eastern Lightning need to do the same? Of course not! That leads to the conclusion that the whole story isn’t being told.

At a more general level, the LC doesn’t want to be called a cult, and of course, that is part of why the DCP exists. Now when you consider all the linkages to these radical groups in China, it raises the question, is the LC really all that “innocent”? As Nigel pointed out, in the earlier days of the LC, there were radical incidents like what happened at the Moody Bible Institute, and it would thus be fair to conclude that the LC deserves the reputation it has obtained. Based on the fact that there has been no type of formal apology for these past behaviors the LC has engaged in, I believe it is fair to say that at heart, they haven’t changed, they have only sought to improve their public image.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I believe it is fair to say that at heart, they haven’t changed, they have only sought to improve their public image.

The very purpose of DCP is the LC public image.

I might need some help here, but didn't Lee and Co. in their lawsuits against being branded a cult, argue that the books in question were putting the LC Christians in China in danger? Weren't they defending The Shouters?

"The “Lord Changshou” sect

One branch of the Shouters held Witness Lee in such high esteem that they began to regard his authority and status as greater than Christ’s.[16]

They called Witness Lee, “Lord Changshou” [17] (Changshou is Witness Lee’s given name). This, of course, goes far beyond the actual teaching of Witness Lee, who never proposed to set himself above Christ.[18]

It has been reported that in 1995 this branch of the Shouters distributed 15 million tracts in 20 major cities in China declaring that Witness Lee was the living Christ and that he would become the new king of the universe.[19]

One can easily see how this cult became a pattern for Eastern Lightning.
This “Lord Changshou” sect believes that you must call upon the Lord Changshou to be saved; that Jesus is someone of the past and will not return to save the world; and that Lord Changshou will return to save the world.[20] "
http://www.facts.org.cn/ebook/201310...11_1137654.htm

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

The very purpose of DCP is the LC public image.

I might need some help here, but didn't Lee and Co. in their lawsuits against being branded a cult, argue that the books in question were putting the LC Christians in China in danger? Weren't they defending The Shouters?

I know in the early 2000's, maybe when there was the Bible smuggling incident, there was talk amongst LC members of what was happening in China. I'm not certain, but I seem to remember something being said along the lines of the name 'shouters' being indeed a reference to LC members in China, albeit it just wasn't a name that they liked that much.

At any rate, if WL - the MOTA said that the shouters are LC members then I guess we should take his word for it. After all, he seemed to have no reservations about using it to refer to LC members.

The Wikipedia article on the Shouters reads as if it was written by the DCP. It says something along the lines of the because the Shouters rebel against government, and because WL taught submitting to government, they couldn't possibly be related to him. It's really too bad more people aren't willing to challenge this kind of nonsense. As we all know, LSM operatives who smuggle Bibles don't seem to believe in abiding by government rules. DCP really is a PR department for the LC. They provide whatever narrative they want for a situation, and no one questions it.

[OBW]

How did the title for this thread end out being "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us"?

Can you fix this?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

How did the title for this thread end out being "A Wake Up Call - God is Speaking to Us"?

Can you fix this?

Sorry about that. It was a copy error. This is more of what it was suppose to be.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The Wikipedia article on the Shouters reads as if it was written by the DCP. It says something along the lines of the because the Shouters rebel against government, and because WL taught submitting to government, they couldn't possibly be related to him.

Do as I say and not as I do...obviously the shouters missed that conference.