Ask Me Anything: Currently Meeting With The Local Churches

Although I have my own ministry in Christian apologetics, I defend mere Christianity. I am a local church member. I have met with the local churches for a while now. I'm intimately connected (and related to some) the leading co-workers, and I've lurked on this forum for multiple years. I wanted to ask all of you, why you are on this forum and why you left the local churches personally. And I'm open to answering any questions, ask me anything!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Member

Although I have my own ministry in Christian apologetics, I defend mere Christianity. I am a local church member. I have met with the local churches for a while now. I'm intimately connected (and related to some) the leading co-workers, and I've lurked on this forum for multiple years. I wanted to ask all of you, why you are on this forum and why you left the local churches personally. And I'm open to answering any questions, ask me anything!

Welcome to the forum, experienced lurker!

While I take much issue with the local church and everything in me wants to ask you lots of pointed, trapping questions, I'll just go for something more genuine:

What is your diagnosis of the local churches that follow the teachings and practices of Witness Lee? How do you view them? You are a longer term member, you know the top leadership, you know what they say about Christianity, you know having your own ministry is "verboten" in the group, and yet you say you defend what they castigate......so what is your personal view of the local church?

1. Only they have the ministry of the age and only they are the genuine expression of the church?
2. They see more than other Christians do but there is some value outside the group too?
3. They are generally correct but just made a few innocent mistakes?
4. They have good and bad and you would not overly encourage or overly discourage people to or away from it?
5. Lots of problems with their teachings but at least the basics are there?
6. System of error packed with leaven and unbiblical teachings, but the social connections keeps people?
7. Cult that twists scripture to cover sin and abuse, leaving a trail of wounds in their wake?

Or something not listed?

And whatever you answer.....why do you think that?

Trapped

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Member

Although I have my own ministry in Christian apologetics, I defend mere Christianity. I am a local church member. I have met with the local churches for a while now. I'm intimately connected (and related to some) the leading co-workers, and I've lurked on this forum for multiple years. I wanted to ask all of you, why you are on this forum and why you left the local churches personally. And I'm open to answering any questions, ask me anything!

Greetings Unregistered guest.
I believe you will have your questions answered here.
I left because it became painfully clear that Brother Lee and the Living Stream Ministry was getting all of the attention and replacing the spirit of the Lord. It became the gospel of Lee and the spirit of Lee. The volumes of knowledge from the life studies to the various published books being marketed in the book room was astonishing and in my minds eye pure vanity..
The local church pride also surged to sickening heights with proud bellowings of poor Christianity!

It wasn't always like that.
Actually it was quite a wonderful and glorious experience in the early years of Elden Hall. I was a child back then but ultimately witnessed much.

I was envited to join this forum in 2008. Before that I had discovered the Berean Study forum where there was a section devoted to the local church movement. I frequent here because we as a group have discovered to our horror the depths of the cover up in so many ways.. we discovered just how deep the rabbit hole went. This journey has made us wiser and not so gullible.

This forum is a resource and a ministry to answer questions for those who just can't peg what is bothering them. We're not perfect which means you'll fit in fine here if you choose to hang out. :-)

Being that you have been here lurking for so long I can imagine you have discovered much also.

I have two questions for you.
1. What do you think of this forum and the people who frequent it?
2. After lurking here and learning the history presented here, Do you believe the LC will ever stop being so exclusive and less dependent on the teachings of Nee and Lee?
Again,
Welcome and
Peace like a river...

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Member

Although I have my own ministry in Christian apologetics, I defend mere Christianity. I am a local church member. I have met with the local churches for a while now. I'm intimately connected (and related to some) the leading co-workers, and I've lurked on this forum for multiple years. I wanted to ask all of you, why you are on this forum and why you left the local churches personally. And I'm open to answering any questions, ask me anything!

This forum helps me heal, understand, and deconstruct the doctrines, teachings, and experiences that stem from my time in The Lord’s Recovery. Only people who have been apart of this group understand the real nuances of it, and having a place to talk about this group with people who understand is very helpful.

In Short, I personally left the Local Churches because of the ministry they subscribe to. I believe that a lot of the doctrines and teachings in the Lord’s Recovery are wrong and aren’t biblical. In the Lord’s Recovery there isn’t room for people who disagree with Lee, critical thought is discouraged. While the statement of faith is pretty generic and welcoming, the reality within the walls of that group is much different. There maybe some localities that are open to disagreeing with Lee, but the “ministry” they subscribe to simply does not.

[Timotheist]

I was also raised in the LC as a child, starting around the year 1971.

The first WL book I read was "Christ vs Religion". Our meetings were less organized and spontaneous. We sang rewritten lyrics to Beattles songs.

Then I watched the movement gradually become the religion they were against.

I left in 1984, around the time when we started calling Lee an apostle.

Originally Posted by Member

Although I have my own ministry in Christian apologetics, I defend mere Christianity. I am a local church member. I have met with the local churches for a while now. I'm intimately connected (and related to some) the leading co-workers, and I've lurked on this forum for multiple years. I wanted to ask all of you, why you are on this forum and why you left the local churches personally. And I'm open to answering any questions, ask me anything!

OK member,
Since we can ask anything, here you go: not sure the forum will be ok with my questions.

I’m not a member of this forum, however I am a former member of the local church.
There are some things that stand out as big red flags in your post, that should be addressed.

1) if you have your own ministry in Christian apologetics, and you actually know anything about apologetics, there is zero chance you can be a member of a local church for a while. I guess unless you work for DCP as a local church “apologetics unit”.

2) if, as you say you are a lurker on this this forum, ( just as I am), there is absolutely no need for the current members to state their objections to the local church. There is almost 100000 post here, and if you honest enough to read them and write an apology for the local church then you would not have come here asking the same questions.

3) if, as you claim you are related to the blended bros of the LC, firstly, there is no such thing as a personal ministry in there! You ether eat things of the Witness or you are out, there is no in between. So something smells like a data collection operation done by the locals here, instead of actually being honest and revealing who you are and asking questions in normal human way, JUST AS EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN GROUP DOES!

I would be very cautious and show some discernment with this. Unless you just want to repeat and do someone’s homework for them. This doesn’t smell right, or even for real. Sorry. Smells like another sham or scam.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I was also raised in the LC as a child, starting around the year 1971.

The first WL book I read was "Christ vs Religion". Our meetings were less organized and spontaneous. We sang rewritten lyrics to Beattles songs.

Then I watched the movement gradually become the religion they were against.

I left in 1984, around the time when we started calling Lee an apostle.

Timotheist, great remark concisely summarizing decades of LC history!

[manna-man]

Is defending mere Christianity the same as poor Christianity?

Originally Posted by Trapped

Welcome to the forum, experienced lurker!

While I take much issue with the local church and everything in me wants to ask you lots of pointed, trapping questions, I'll just go for something more genuine:

What is your diagnosis of the local churches that follow the teachings and practices of Witness Lee? How do you view them? You are a longer term member, you know the top leadership, you know what they say about Christianity, you know having your own ministry is "verboten" in the group, and yet you say you defend what they castigate......so what is your personal view of the local church?

1. Only they have the ministry of the age and only they are the genuine expression of the church?
2. They see more than other Christians do but there is some value outside the group too?
3. They are generally correct but just made a few innocent mistakes?
4. They have good and bad and you would not overly encourage or overly discourage people to or away from it?
5. Lots of problems with their teachings but at least the basics are there?
6. System of error packed with leaven and unbiblical teachings, but the social connections keeps people?
7. Cult that twists scripture to cover sin and abuse, leaving a trail of wounds in their wake?

Or something not listed?

And whatever you answer.....why do you think that?

Trapped

My own ministry isn't particularly verboten, I've talked to my father about it. The principle is to avoid conflict and promote "oneness" of doctrine, at least formally in the church. My ministry only defends things like the trinity, God's existence, and the resurrection which is not in conflict with LSM. I have had many interactions with DCP, and there's no conflict with my apologetics and the teachings of LSM. Ed Marks was encouraged by it, when I told him about it.

To answer your suggestion, it lies somewhere between 1-4. I believe the local churches have a nuanced and sometimes guilty history. But this is true of most churches, I don't find that to be a persuasive critique (ipso facto), but rather a serious practical issue. I believe most of the truths interpreted by Witness Lee are plausible. We are stuck in our minds, so we have to interpret everything. We are all on the same ground epistemically, and I find the teachings to be plausibly grounded. We hold to the central faith formally, so we aren't in the despair of damnable heresy as some would suggest.

Originally Posted by manna-man

Greetings Unregistered guest.
I believe you will have your questions answered here.
I left because it became painfully clear that Brother Lee and the Living Stream Ministry was getting all of the attention and replacing the spirit of the Lord. It became the gospel of Lee and the spirit of Lee. The volumes of knowledge from the life studies to the various published books being marketed in the book room was astonishing and in my minds eye pure vanity..
The local church pride also surged to sickening heights with proud bellowings of poor Christianity!

It wasn't always like that.
Actually it was quite a wonderful and glorious experience in the early years of Elden Hall. I was a child back then but ultimately witnessed much.

I was invited to join this forum in 2008. Before that I had discovered the Berean Study forum where there was a section devoted to the local church movement. I frequent here because we as a group have discovered to our horror the depths of the cover up in so many ways.. we discovered just how deep the rabbit hole went. This journey has made us wiser and not so gullible.

This forum is a resource and a ministry to answer questions for those who just can't peg what is bothering them. We're not perfect which means you'll fit in fine here if you choose to hang out. :-)

Being that you have been here lurking for so long I can imagine you have discovered much also.

I have two questions for you.
1. What do you think of this forum and the people who frequent it?
2. After lurking here and learning the history presented here, Do you believe the LC will ever stop being so exclusive and less dependent on the teachings of Nee and Lee?
Again,
Welcome and
Peace like a river...

Thank you for your answer, Manna!

1. I mostly have good thoughts about this forum. I think it's good to have an open forum to share your ideas, I'm never against that. I have seen some distasteful things which are discouraging but overall I think it's an important thing. I think most of the frequent people are genuine people that have been hurt or found the local churches to be a big issue, so they want to help others. I have seen some people that seem to not have rational critiques, but rather an agenda against the local churches. It's understandable from some of their experiences.

2. I don't think the local churches will be less dependent on the interpretation of Nee/Lee any time soon, formally. But, I believe the culture/atmosphere of the meetings will shift more and more that way. I have seen it in the past 10 years, and I think it will continue even more as the third generation goes to be with the Lord.

Originally Posted by Onlooker

OK member,
Since we can ask anything, here you go: not sure the forum will be ok with my questions.

I’m not a member of this forum, however I am a former member of the local church.
There are some things that stand out as big red flags in your post, that should be addressed.

1) if you have your own ministry in Christian apologetics, and you actually know anything about apologetics, there is zero chance you can be a member of a local church for a while. I guess unless you work for DCP as a local church “apologetics unit”.

2) if, as you say you are a lurker on this this forum, ( just as I am), there is absolutely no need for the current members to state their objections to the local church. There is almost 100000 post here, and if you honest enough to read them and write an apology for the local church then you would not have come here asking the same questions.

3) if, as you claim you are related to the blended bros of the LC, firstly, there is no such thing as a personal ministry in there! You ether eat things of the Witness or you are out, there is no in between. So something smells like a data collection operation done by the locals here, instead of actually being honest and revealing who you are and asking questions in normal human way, JUST AS EVERY OTHER CHRISTIAN GROUP DOES!

I would be very cautious and show some discernment with this. Unless you just want to repeat and do someone’s homework for them. This doesn’t smell right, or even for real. Sorry. Smells like another sham or scam.

This post is hilarious to read.

1) You suggest there is zero chance I would remain a member if I know anything about apologetics. You just psychoanalyze and presuppose your position. Could you offer an argument? Why should I leave the local churches?

2) The main point of my post was for people to AMA. I offered the question as a personal sentiment. I'm curious why they left (personally), I have seen the objections on this forum. You seem to have been hurt in your experience, but you don't have to project it onto this conversation.

3) You can see my other response. I defend the core doctrines of Christianity which is not in conflict with any of the teachings of LSM. I have been encouraged in this endeavor. You accuse of data collection... for what? I'm scamming by asking questions. How absurd. Do you have anything of substance to offer?

Originally Posted by manna-man

Is defending mere Christianity the same as poor Christianity?

I'm not sure what poor Christianity is. It's a reference to C.S Lewis if you have read him. I have a similar approach to William Lane Craig. I don't defend things like soteriology, it's a general approach (Trinity, God, Resurrection).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Member

My own ministry isn't particularly verboten, I've talked to my father about it. The principle is to avoid conflict and promote "oneness" of doctrine, at least formally in the church. My ministry only defends things like the trinity, God's existence, and the resurrection which is not in conflict with LSM. I have had many interactions with DCP, and there's no conflict with my apologetics and the teachings of LSM. Ed Marks was encouraged by it, when I told him about it.

What was your position when LSM/DCP (led by Minoru Chen) came into the Midwest LC's and divided all of them over, not the teachings of the Bible, but the teachings of WL? After what happened in the Midwest, LSM/DCP did the same to Brazil.

And what is AMA?

Quote: I defend the core doctrines of Christianity which is not in conflict with any of the teachings of LSM.

I dont understand this. Isn't the raison d'etre of the LSM that they are different from the rest of christianity?

Its like asking a mormon to defend the core doctrines of christianity which are not in conflict with any of the teachings of the LDS church. It can be done, definitely, but it dosent make sense.

[Trapped]

Not sure if the original AMA poster (by the way, Ohio, AMA means "ask me anything") has disappeared because they didn't want to register, or if they were identified by the details they gave and were contacted by brothers and told not to continue posting here, but I just wanted to respond about one thing in particular, regarding their apologetics ministry that defends doctrines in agreement with the core of Christianity AND with LSM.

​It’s a small list of doctrines where the core of Christianity and the local church overlap in compatible agreement. You mentioned the Trinity, for example, but that’s not one Christianity remotely agrees with the local church about, so much so that an open letter from 70 Christian scholars was written to LSM asking that the co-workers disavow their incompatible version of the Trinity.

The local church simultaneously claims the Son actually is the Father (not just that the Son is God and the Father is God, but that the Son actually IS the Father) at the same time as it claims the Son and the Father are distinct.

The local church simultaneously claims the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons but is only one person, at the same time claiming a “Triune” God.

They claim things that are both modalist AND trinitarian, all the while, if Hank Hanegraaff is to be believed, proclaiming with great vigor that they are not modalists and are firmly trinitarian.

Those who espouse the core standard Christian teaching of the Trinity would definitely not agree with the Trinity of the local church. Christianity would say the Son is NOT the Father, and that there are “three persons, one God”, not “one person”.

If you do apologetics for the local church version, you are contradicting Christianity. If you do apologetics for the Christianity version, you are contradicting the ministry in the local church.

Original poster - if you have been contacted by brothers who told you not to continue posting here, that is a telltale sign of a group that uses control tactics. If you simply don't want to register, you can always create an anonymous free email address with which to register and remain totally anonymous, if that was your concern. It's always nice to have a current member willing to engage.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Not sure if the original AMA poster (by the way, Ohio, AMA means "ask me anything") has disappeared because they didn't want to register, or if they were identified by the details they gave and were contacted by brothers and told not to continue posting here, but I just wanted to respond about one thing particular, regarding their apologetics ministry that defends doctrines in agreement with the core of Christianity AND with LSM.

It’s a small list of doctrines where the core of Christianity and the local church overlap in compatible agreement. You mentioned the Trinity, for example, but that’s not one Christianity remotely agrees with the local church about, so much so that an open letter from 70 Christian scholars was written to LSM asking that the co-workers disavow their incompatible version of the Trinity.

Imagine the collective shock in the entire Midwest region of LC’s as the LSM Blindeds smooch up with WL’s former chief antagonist at CRI, and then turn on TC who was a WL ardent loyalist for 55 years, never once disagreeing on Trinitarian theology.