Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit

bearbear · 10-01-2014, 02:02 PM

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However early on in the LC's history (before Witness Lee gained as much influence as he did perhaps) it seems like tongues, deliverance and healings were practiced here and there. My Grandma has many wild stories from her early start in the LCs of Taiwan in the 50s and 60s of healings and deliverances during her evangelism trips.

My mother was also healed of a leg injury when she was about 7 or 8 by a brother in Taiwan with the gift of healing (who's healing ministry Witness Lee later put a stop to).

I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

Just last weekend I attended a men's retreat in my church. On Sunday morning, I had pretty bad nasal congestion and had trouble speaking and breathing which was unfortunate because I was assigned to lead devotion in the morning. After a quick prayer in my head to the Lord about this matter, one brother gets up and announces that he felt led to pray for healing for anyone with nasal congestion. I raised my hand and after the group prayed for me, my sinuses cleared immediately. I've never had my nasal congestion symptoms disappear so quickly and I was more than ready to serve in our morning devotion that would follow.

I was happy and thankful, but not that surprised as I've experienced and seen these type of miracles occur over and over again in my church group and during our evangelism trips where we pray for healing to demonstrate the power of God to help others believe in God's love for them through Jesus.

That's one of the more tamer stories and I have a lot more I can share later, but that's the most recent one. I just wanted to open up this thread to anyone who had other direct experiences with the Holy Spirit and has adopted a supernatural worldview after leaving the LCs.

Acts 4:29-30
And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Freedom · 10-01-2014, 06:40 PM

This is an interesting topic, because it seems like in the LC, they like to steer clear of gifts in general. Of course, there is one "gift" (prophecy) that they are obsessed with. Since I have been in the LC my whole life, I don't know how the LC views on gifts compares to non-charismatic churches.

In general, I think this is a touchy subject that people like to steer clear of because of the misuse by people who purport to perform "supernatural" healing and miracles.

What I do know is that God works in mysterious ways. It is undeniable that supernatural events can occur and do occur in all of our lives. Even though I am still in the LC, I never cease to be amazed in the ways that God works.

It is hard to think of any specific examples, but I do know that I have had different dreams where I knew at some point afterwards that it was God speaking to me.

In the LC, because of the devaluation of the gifts, I don't expect to have any extraordinary experiences. What is completely unbalanced about the LC is that they rarely talk about gifts, but all the sudden when it comes to prophecy, it's a whole different story. They even devote a whole meeting to it (prophesying meeting).

The implication in the which WL made is that there is only one gift and everyone has the same gift, that being the gift of prophecy. Everyone is expected to "prophecy" in a meeting each week so that is a huge implication right there. They don't have a "healing" meeting or a "speaking in tongues" meeting (I'm not saying that they should) so it seem quite ironic that they have become so obsessed with a certain gift.

Sadly to say, because of this imbalance, I don't think many in the LC including myself have any awareness of what gift they may have. I am aware of different ways I am viewed as "useful" to the LC, but does that really mean I have a certain gift?

I think the end effect is that many LC members feel discouraged concerning their usefulness to God. Even though everyone is told the are "function" by prophesying each week, it is really only of benefit to those who actually have that gift.

Sometimes I am pressured to prophecy and I know that I have nothing to say. So basically I make something up that serves no other purpose than to satisfy those who are pressuring me. Afterward when people say something like "I really enjoyed your sharing today", I think to myself and realize what a hypocrite I was and how hypocritical the LC is. How could anyone enjoy something I made up on the spot that I could care less about?

In summary, I can definitely say that I believe in supernatural occurrences. I can think of several people in the LC who have share things with me now and then, however I think as an unspoken rule in the LC, we know to keep such things to ourselves.

bearbear · 10-01-2014, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is an interesting topic, because it seems like in the LC, they like to steer clear of gifts in general. Of course, there is one "gift" (prophecy) that they are obsessed with. Since I have been in the LC my whole life, I don't know how the LC views on gifts compares to non-charismatic churches.

Just wanted to add that the gift of prophecy the way it is used in the LC is considered by most to be the "gift of teaching" outside LC/Brethren. Many people in my church credited me with the gift of teaching, perhaps due in part to many years that I spent in the LC "prophesying"

People with prophetic gifting can discern what's in people's hearts and reveal them.

1 Cor 14:25 (NLT)
As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, "God is truly here among you."

Or they can also prophesy over what will happen in the future to further God's kingdom such as happened in Acts 11:28-29

"One of them named Agabus stood up in one of the meetings and predicted by the Spirit that a great famine was coming upon the entire Roman world. (This was fulfilled during the reign of Claudius.) the believers in Antioch decided to send relief to the brothers and sisters in Judea, everyone giving as much as they could."

A great book to read on the gift of prophecy is one by Jack Deere:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Beginners-.../dp/0830746021

bearbear · 10-01-2014, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

It is hard to think of any specific examples, but I do know that I have had different dreams where I knew at some point afterwards that it was God speaking to me....

In summary, I can definitely say that I believe in supernatural occurrences. I can think of several people in the LC who have share things with me now and then, however I think as an unspoken rule in the LC, we know to keep such things to ourselves.

A sister in the LC my wife was close to often had dreams she believed were from God but was afraid to disclose it to anyone else because people in the LC would think she is crazy. Similar to your case, the dreams often described events that happened later in the future. This could be an indication of prophetic gifting.

Job 33:14-15
For God speaks again and again, though people do not recognize it. He speaks in dreams, in visions of the night, when deep sleep falls on people as they lie in their beds.

1 Cor 14:1 (NLT)
Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives--especially the ability to prophesy.

zeek · 10-02-2014, 09:27 AM

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

Wow I've only scratched the surface so far

There was a former NASA engineer, well educated, has a PhD, who is in my Aunt's small group. He was really into Qi-Gong and some kind of high level master. Not many Chinese, even Christians including my dad, are aware that Qi Gong has some pretty deep occult origins.

During a period in his life he would get these random urges to kill people. An incident occurred in his workplace that almost had him go through with murdering a co-worker but he was able to prevent it before it got serious.

A friend of his told him he needed to connect with Christians who know the Holy Spirit, so he recommended that he go to my aunt's small group.

So eventually one night during the small group, during a prayer of deliverance, this NASA engineer is on the ground, squirming and foaming at the mouth. After the demon left him, he later immediately gave his life to Jesus and is now still there attending my aunt's small group and deeply involved in serving in our church

awareness · 10-02-2014, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

I'll second that. Me to. Gives me the Heebie-jeebies. And I think I feel that unique particular tickle ... of smoke going up my backside.

Call James Randi.

Ohio · 10-02-2014, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I'll second that. Me to. Gives me the Heebie-jeebies. And I think I feel that unique particular tickle ... of smoke going up my backside.

This is exactly what happened when Jesus walked thru Galilee and surrounding regions casting out demons.

I think the ancient Israelites got creeped out too with double heebie-jeebies when Legion was delivered, and those hogs ran into the sea.

zeek · 10-02-2014, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is exactly what happened when Jesus walked thru Galilee and surrounding regions casting out demons.

I think the ancient Israelites got creeped out too with double heebie-jeebies when Legion was delivered, and those hogs ran into the sea.

I've read that story, but nothing like that is part of my experience.

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

I've read that story, but nothing like that is part of my experience.

You don't have to look too far. Many musicians and actors in Hollywood openly admit to demon possession, and not in a metaphorical sense.

Nicki Minaj possessed by a demon named Roman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3EMjGxXcGQ

Beyonce possessed by Sasha Fierce:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9w9K2AiMTI

Jay-Z and Eminem possessed by Rainman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOmZNe0O-zw (warning: this video is done from an islamic worldview, but interesting still)

Overt Satanism in Hollywood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsCXxxPBnGc

zeek · 10-02-2014, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

You don't have to look too far. Many musicians and actors in Hollywood openly admit to demon possession, and not in a metaphorical sense.

Nicki Minaj possessed by a demon named Roman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3EMjGxXcGQ

Beyonce possessed by Sasha Fierce:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9w9K2AiMTI

Jay-Z and Eminem possessed by Rainman:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXzOUBKdlJo (warning: this video is done from an islamic worldview, but interesting still)

Overt Satanism in Hollywood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsCXxxPBnGc

I'm not unfamiliar with people making wild claims. I spent six years working in mental health centers where bizarre stories were the norm. I referred to having the experience. Even people who claimed demon possession often denied that they were real when they were on psychotropic medication.

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

I'm not unfamiliar with people making wild claims. I spent six years working in mental health centers where bizarre stories were the norm. I referred to having the experience. Even people who claimed demon possession often denied that they were real when they were on psychotropic medication.

Wanting to have direct experience over taking other's word for it is good. Jesus was willing to show Thomas the nails in his hand and let him touch his side so he could have faith that he could call his own.

John 20:27-28
Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." "My Lord and my God!" Thomas exclaimed.

Perhaps all one has to do is continually pray and ask.

Matthew 7:7
"Keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you.

awareness · 10-02-2014, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Perhaps all one has to do is continually pray and ask.

Let's suppose bearbear is out on the mission field and he runs across a person possessed of a demon.

Well if we look at:

Mar 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Apparently Jesus is saying there's different methods of casting out demons based upon the demon. And this one comes out only by prayer AND fasting.

This is where a variation in the manuscripts really matters ... where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. According to Jesus you have to use the right method to cast out certain demons.

And in the earliest manuscripts of Mark 9 Jesus doesn't mention fasting. Jesus says only prayer is required.

So how is bearbear to know which method will work, praying or praying and fasting?

Get it wrong and the demon with just laugh at bearbear. Pray when prayer and fasting is required and the demon laughs. Pray when just prayer is required, and add fasting, and the demon laughs.

Poor poor bearbear. If he wants to follow the proper directions of Jesus, which does he follow? His quandary will likely slow him down so much that the demon will be gone, or the possessed man will have run off to other business.

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Let's suppose bearbear is out on the mission field and he runs across a person possessed of a demon.

Well if we look at:

Mar 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.

Apparently Jesus is saying there's different methods of casting out demons based upon the demon. And this one comes out only by prayer AND fasting.

This is where a variation in the manuscripts really matters ... where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. According to Jesus you have to use the right method to cast out certain demons.

And in the earliest manuscripts of Mark 9 Jesus doesn't mention fasting. Jesus says only prayer is required.

So how is bearbear to know which method will work, praying or praying and fasting?

Get it wrong and the demon with just laugh at bearbear. Pray when prayer and fasting is required and the demon laughs. Pray when just prayer is required, and add fasting, and the demon laughs.

Poor poor bearbear. If he wants to follow the proper directions of Jesus, which does he follow? His quandary will likely slow him down so much that the demon will be gone, or the possessed man will have run off to other business.

Awareness you of all people are well aware Jesus isn't stuck to pages of scripture but he dwells in us through the Holy Spirit. He will tell us what to do when it comes time. The Holy Manual of Instruction is no longer stuck to pages, but is written in our hearts.

John 14:26
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative--that is, the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

Jesus also taught it was better that the Holy Spirit come to be with us than for him to be physically present with us:

John 16:8
But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don't, the Advocate won't come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.

awareness · 10-02-2014, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Awareness you of all people are well aware Jesus isn't stuck to pages of scripture but he dwells in us through the Holy Spirit. He will tell us what to do when it comes time. The Holy Manual of Instruction is no longer stuck to pages, but is written in our hearts.

John 14:26
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative--that is, the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

Jesus also taught it was better that the Holy Spirit come to be with us than for him to be physically present with us:

John 16:8
But in fact, it is best for you that I go away, because if I don't, the Advocate won't come. If I do go away, then I will send him to you.

bearbear what can I say? If you've personally witnessed these kinds of gifts and miracles, or been personally involved in them, then I'll give it serious attention. But if what you've got is second, third, or fourth hand, then I'm not going to be inclined to put much stock in it.

Also, I'll even be disinclined to put too much stock in what you personally witness.

The reason I said call James Randi is because he's had a million dollar offer to anyone that can prove a supernatural event that he can't figure out their trick or tricks.

And he's debunked many of the Pentecostal claims, and performances, and has figured out their tricks and scams.

He's had the million dollar offer for decades and so far no one has taken the prize, and there's been many attempts.

Hey if your church is in need of a million dollars then they should call Randi, preform some miracles, that he can't figure out that tricks are going on, or natural causes for, and collect your million.

Good luck with that.

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

bearbear what can I say? If you've personally witnessed these kinds of gifts and miracles, or been personally involved in them, then I'll give it serious attention. But if what you've got is second, third, or fourth hand, then I'm not going to be inclined to put much stock in it.

Also, I'll even be disinclined to put too much stock in what you personally witness.

The reason I said call James Randi is because he's had a million dollar offer to anyone that can prove a supernatural event that he can't figure out their trick or tricks.

And he's debunked many of the Pentecostal claims, and performances, and has figured out their tricks and scams.

He's had the million dollar offer for decades and so far no one has taken the prize, and there's been many attempts.

Hey if your church is in need of a million dollars then they should call Randi, preform some miracles, that he can't figure out that tricks are going on, or natural causes for, and collect your million.

Good luck with that.

Miracles have been documented in the medical profession, one in particular is Heidi Baker's ministry in Mozambique which was covered in Christianity Today two years ago.

Quote:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...ozambique.html

In September 2010, the Southern Medical Journal published an article titled: Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Proximal Intercessory Prayer (STEPP) on Auditory and Visual Impairments in Rural Mozambique. The official publication can be found here and the original authored manuscript from Indiana University can be found here. 24 people were tested; hearing of deaf subjects improved by 10-60 decibels. Vision of some of the blind subjects also improved, ranging from none to 15X.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20686441

Here's Randy Clark healing a boy who has been deaf from birth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjUkgOBFsBY

As for James Randi's challenge, the type of people listed above aren't interested in money but are motivated by God's love. I think he should take a trip to visit people like Heidi Baker in Mozambique or Bethel church in Redding if he is serious.

Miracles have been documented all throughout the medical profession. Many hospitals even have an option for "Act of God" when documenting recoveries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC76fbB8qx0

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 07:46 PM

As for personal experiences, I received healing on my shoulder when I was led to share God's love with a few homeless. I posted it on my blog a while back:

Quote:

Today I experienced excruciating chronic shoulder pain from carrying my daughter for prolonged periods, preventing me from doing much so I went to the grocery store to pick up some Tylenol. On the way there I prayed that God would show me someone to share the gospel with since it had been a while. As I came out of the store, a homeless gentleman by the name of Tom asked me for help because the recycling center next to Nob Hill was closed prematurely. Long story short I got to help them out materially and minister to him and his friend Anthony by sharing the gospel and God's love for them. Tom was so touched that God cared enough about him to send someone to provide for their need that he cried. I felt blessed that God answered my prayer so quickly and gave me the opportunity to sow into their lives because God loves the homeless.

However, after I left, I realized I had forgotten to pray for their healing to show them God's love via his power. It's something I've been reminding myself to do after watching so many of Tom Fischer's videos on youtube (see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E62EgXvqfrc). But then as I walked home regretting that I didn't push further towards healing in ministry, I noticed my own shoulder pain was COMPLETELY GONE. Praise God! It's the first time I experienced healing like this and I didn't ask for it then, though I'd been praying all day for it since the pain was so overwhelming. I may have forgotten to pray to heal them, but God didn't forget to heal me

Most importantly God was able to show his love to Tom and Anthony. Pray that Tom and Anthony's faith would grow and endure to the end, and they would rely on God's promise in Matthew 6:33.

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 07:56 PM

John 4:48 "Unless you people see signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

A campus missionary by the name of Chris Scoz visited our youth this summer. He's only 21 and is known for getting 2/3 of his high school saved through a revival by healing & evangelism.

He did an altar call for healing during the conference and many youth experienced healing of problems such as scoliosis. There was one youth who always caused a lot of trouble and would be rebellious/rowdy in most meetings. After he experienced healing, his whole worldview was turned upside down and he's taken his faith seriously since.

Here's a conversation we had from GChat after his experience:

Quote:

JK:dude sam saammm
BB: hi joshua what's up?
JK: dude DUDE MY STUFF GOT HEALED
BB: oh wow, praise God!
JK: YEAH!!! my butt bone was uneaven, and i can sit now and my ancles are even and they dont even pop anymore and my legs are even too
BB: wow Jesus loves you. did anyone like in your family know about your problems before or your friends
JK: yes
BB: what do they think?
JK they asked me if anyone prayed for me i said no and they said how did i get healed without anyone praying for me
BB: did you go on the stage? sorry i have a bad memory
JK: nope
BB: wow so you got healed even though you didn't ask for it?
JK: yes i was going to ask but i didnt
BB: that happened to Abigail also, she had a yeast infection in her mouth that usually goes away after 1 month, inside of her mouth is all white. we didn't pray for her at conference, but yesterday her mouth was completely normal, no whiteness
JK: wow this confrenece was crazy
BB: that is cool, we can do testimonies next time we meet
you can tell your friends about how jesus healed you
JK: i am
BB: when did you realize you were healed?
JK: like everyone well... right after the confrence, i sat down, and my butt was even. but i thought that was just normal and then just like 10 min ago
i checked my ancle and it wasnt popping and then i checked everything that i was gonna get prayed for and all of them got healed except for my eyesight
BB: wow God read your mind he knows our every thought
JK: yes
BB: psalms 139:2 now you have faith because you personally encountered healing, you now have the faith to pray for others too
JK: yeah
BB: here's a youtube video of cool street healings: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E62EgXvqfrc
JK: wow

bearbear · 10-02-2014, 09:22 PM

Maybe we can make all this interactive rather than being theoretical. I don't know if I have the gift of healing but I can try and I will rely on this promise:

Mark 16:17-18 (NLT)
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”

Because of distance we won't be able to place hands on anyone however, Jesus healed people who were not in his physical presence and he promises that we will do greater works than him.

John 14:12 (NLT)
I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father.

If anyone has a health problem or any other kind of specific prayer request you can post it here and I and others who feel led to can pray for it. I'm leaving for a wedding tomorrow so I won't be around this weekend, but I will be available at least tonight.

awareness · 10-03-2014, 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Maybe we can make all this interactive rather than being theoretical. I don't know if I have the gift of healing but I can try and I will rely on this promise:

Mark 16:17-18 (NLT)
These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.”.

So you are relying on the verses in Mark that weren't in the original, that was added by a later scribe, that clearly wasn't inspired. May as well depend on Dante, and his Divine Comedy ... or use Holy Water.

Why not just use faith, like my friend in Florida, that was healed of cancer by Mother Mary.

bearbear · 10-03-2014, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So you are relying on the verses in Mark that weren't in the original, that was added by a later scribe, that clearly wasn't inspired. May as well depend on Dante, and his Divine Comedy ... or use Holy Water.

Why not just use faith, like my friend in Florida, that was healed of cancer by Mother Mary.

Awareness, there are always thousands of reasons you can find to disbelieve. I guess last time you 'believed' in the LC it was like rape so I can't blame you. Once trust is broken it is hard to regain. Don't know what else to say except I hope and pray you will get healed of bitterness.

Here's a testimony of a well known Indonesian pastor who was molested by a church elder and turned from God because of mistrust:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-K75RyPZY0

That said, I regret posting the controversial verse here as there was a little thought in my mind yesterday not to, however some argue that the last verses in Mark should belong because the early church Fathers quoted from it even before the manuscripts that omitted it.

Quote:

http://www.studytoanswer.net/bibleversions/markend.html
In addition to the various textual evidences, the testimony of the early patristic writers is in favor of Mark 16:9-20. Beginning with the earliest, we find a probable allusion to Mark 16:18 in the words of Papias, as recorded by Eusebius.16 Papias, a contemporary with several of the Apostles and their companions, records an instance in which Justus Barsabbas (from Acts 1:23) drank a deadly poison and was preserved by the grace of God. Papias' comment comes within the context of some other miraculous events which he had received as traditions from those with the Apostles. His specific choice to point out such a miraculous preservation, alongside another type of miracle (the raising of the dead) associated with Christ, seems to suggest Papias' familiarity with the long ending of Mark, and his association of that text with the Lord Jesus Christ. He may have chosen this tradition as an object demonstration of Mark 16:18 occurring in practice.

Around 165 AD, we find Justin Martyr making a probable allusion to Mark 16:20.17 In a passage where Justin is explaining the Christian doctrine of Christ's ascension and present reign in heaven on the right hand of the Father, uses the phrases tou logou (of the word) and exelqonteV pantacou ekhruxan (went forth and preached) together in a description of the activities of His Apostles after Christ's ascension. The juxtaposition of these terms, and the fact that they appear (but for the switching of the order of two words) exactly as the same phrases in Mark 16:20, and the context of Justin's statement in his passage, would suggest that this patristic was familiar with the passage in the longer ending of Mark, and was alluding to it here.

At roughly the same time, Irenaeus quotes Mark 16:19 outright18 (~177 AD), and Tatian the Assyrian included the ending in his Diatessaron,19 a document attempting the harmonization of the four Gospel narratives (~175 AD). Tertullian refers to Mark 16:19 around 215 AD,20 and Tregelles reports21 that Hippolytus (~235 AD) quotes Mark 16:18-19 at least twice. In Cyprian's account of the 7th Council of Carthage (256 AD), he records a strong allusion made by Vincentus of Thibarus to Mark 16:17-18.22 The Apostolic Constitutions (3rd-4th c. AD) quote Mark 16:16,23 as well as alluding to Mark 16:15 twice elsewhere. Macarius Magnes (~390 AD) reports that Mark 16:18 was an object of attack by the Neoplatonist Porphyry or his student Hierocles (whose works are generally dated about a century earlier), discussing both their objections to the message of the verse (but not its authenticity) and Macarius' own defense of the same.24 The Syrian patristic Aphraates (~345 AD) cites the ending as well,25 showing that it was accepted within Syriac Christianity.

....

Looking at the evidence, we see that there is little reason to question Mark 16:9-20. The Greek manuscript witness in its favor is nearly as old as that opposed (and indeed, as will be shown below, once the testimony of Greek-speaking patristic writers is included, the Greek evidence FOR the longer ending is OLDER than that against). Further, we should note that the near uniform testimony of the Greek manuscript evidence is in favor of these verses (the Byzantine majority).

UntoHim · 10-03-2014, 09:05 AM

So Harold, along with your other skills, you're now a New Testament scholar? So you know more than the dozens (hundreds?) of the most learned NT scholars WHO HAVE LEFT THIS SECTION INTACT IN ALMOST ALL OF THE MODERN TRANSLATIONS? Some have rightly made a footnote that this section does not appear in the earliest of manuscripts, HOWEVER, almost all agree that it still qualifies to be part of the accepted canon, and they do so for numerous reasons which are WAY too involved to get into on this forum. Bottom line - They left this section in, and they had their good reasons to do so.

So bearbear, you go bro, you go! And you can rely on any verse or verses that are in most of the modern translations. You seem like the kind of fellow who does his homework anyway, so I probably am not posting anything you don't already know. Harold was right about the faith part though. So use the Word, use your faith, "ALL ARE YOURS" as the apostle Paul said!

**** I just saw bearbear's last post. SEE, I told you this guy does his homework!****

aron · 10-03-2014, 09:26 AM

Well I am always somewhat skeptical because I know of demons that will go around possessing you and then offer you relief. Like drug addiction, you get pulled in deeper thinking that you are better. "Then all my troubles went away"... just take a little puff on the magic weed, or pop the pill.

But I am not an absolute skeptic. God is God, and can do what He wants. Certainly Jesus set the bar, and He set it high.

Funny thing -- I come from a big family of alkies, and one of my cousins got sober in the Mormons, and another got sober in the Buddhists, and I got sober with Witness Lee. So we all got "healed", of a sort.

Ohio · 10-03-2014, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So you are relying on the verses in Mark that weren't in the original, that was added by a later scribe, that clearly wasn't inspired. May as well depend on Dante, and his Divine Comedy ... or use Holy Water. Why not just use faith, like my friend in Florida, that was healed of cancer by Mother Mary.

Yeah, yeah, yeah ... I have a cousin in greater Cleveburg who was healed of cancer by Mother Mary too. He is cancer free today, and doing quite well, but has lost the use of his legs.

You guys are both talking past each other because you are both looking at different things. Here are what I consider to be two irrefutable facts:

God has worked miracles, signs, wonders, and prophecies in OT times, while Jesus and the apostles were on earth, and during the entire church age, including today.
Some have become charlatans attempting to deceive God's people in OT times, while Jesus and the apostles were on earth, and during the entire church age, including today.

bearbear is looking at the former, while awareness is focused on the latter. bearbear should not be naive to think that the latter does not happen, while awareness must admit that the former does and has happened, whether he has witnessed it personally or not.

I think we would all agree that the end of Mark's gospel has issues. Unfortunately a few churches down in Mountaineer Country use these verses to justify snake handling, much to the regret of their leaders who have died from snake bites. We should, as a rule, however, use Peter's admonition that no scripture is of private interpretation, and let the scripture interpret all difficult verses.

Can I suggest that we give bearbear the liberty to continue? (As long as he don't start promoting Benny Hinn!) I for one found his prophetical account of the Arminians to be quite fascinating in light of history repeating itself today with ISIS exactly one century later.

aron · 10-03-2014, 09:42 AM

But Jesus clearly went around doing works of power. So if we simply wave it away as irrelevant, or past tense, or as merely symbolic or allegorical (physical healing as representative of psychological healing, or "demons" as representing scientific ailments) then we have a "revised text". Certainly WL interepreted away anything that didn't get lined up fully with his hermeneutic, and works of power was included. So WL's gospel was an "interpreted" version in which works of power were largely irrelevant, except for informational purposes. Dead letters, anyone?

But I would like to discuss a more prosaic form, which is probably related. Two stories follow. First, when I was young I would listen to anything. Today I am more able to test the spirits. When people held themselves as something I would follow, naively. Today I realize that those who lift themselves up on this side of the Judgment Seat will be taken down. Those who try to be first today will not be first in the kingdom.

Similarly, I can see "Christ" in people who are troubled and wretched. Jesus could see the future, and the past. He saw Nathaniel before Philip called him, while he was under the fig tree. He knew Judas would betray him. Similarly I can sometimes "see" either the past or the future, instead of just reacting to the apparent present.

My second story comes from work. I was an alcoholic and totally blew my resume apart. I couldn't find even basic work. And this was after leaving the LRC, even. I was tormented by forces I couldn't comprehend, even sober. I couldn't fit into society.

To make a long story short, I eventually got a revelation that I wasn't the only sickie out there, and got a job in human services. Helping the downtrodden, etc. So one day I was doing my menial work, and a guy comes by, and was talking about this really far-out research they were doing. I said, "I know that stuff." So he invited me to talk at a national conference. I just walked up there and this stuff started pouring out of me. Papers I read years back, suddenly got "resurrected" in front of this crowd of people from the top medical schools and research institutions. It was wild, but I was totally calm; I knew it was the Lord. Only God could have done that.

Then I went back to my menial service job. But you can believe I never forgot that. God said, "I can do anything." The only thing that stops God is our concepts. Today I am much more open to God's speaking in the Word.

UntoHim · 10-03-2014, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

You guys are both talking past each other because you are both looking at different things. Here are what I consider to be two irrefutable facts:
[LIST][*]God has worked miracles, signs, wonders, and prophecies in OT times, while Jesus and the apostles were on earth, and during the entire church age, including today.[*]Some have become charlatans attempting to deceive God's people in OT times, while Jesus and the apostles were on earth, and during the entire church age, including today.

Can I suggest that we give bearbear the liberty to continue? (As long as he don't satart promoting Benny Hinn!) I for one found his prophetical account of the Arminians to be quite fascinating in light of history repeating itself today with ISIS exactly one century later.

Thanks you Ohio for this. It's not fair to the starter of a thread to have it constantly sidetracked.

Ohio · 10-03-2014, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

To make a long story short, I eventually got a revelation that I wasn't the only sickie out there ...

You needed a heavenly revelation for that?

Obviously you had not met me yet, or you would have known that from the start. People in my extended family are still talking about some of my more "noble adventures."

aron · 10-03-2014, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

You needed a heavenly revelation for that?

Obviously you had not met me yet, or you would have known that from the start.

I was spending all my time in the LRC pretending to be "good building material". It was exhausting. Eventually I collapsed from the strain. It took me years to admit my abject failure. But God is merciful; eventually I saw the unique "good building material." His name is Jesus Christ.

What changed for me was that when I found people as messed up as I was, years after my LRC immersion in "God's best", I realized that if I served and shepherded and fed and loved these failures, then God would serve and shepherd and love and feed me. God told us to "waste yourself" upon those who could not repay you, and your reward would be great in heaven (in direct contrast to the LRC trainer who told us, bluntly, not to "waste your time" on the losers of the world). Eventually, the premise that I was a pathetic noob even became something of a calling card. The hearers usually received me, thinking, "Gee, if God can help that poor slob Aron then surely he can help me, too." My own failures became a testimony of God's mercy and goodness and steadfastness.

aron · 10-03-2014, 01:17 PM

"And now we will come to revelations and visions of the Lord..." Paul to the Corinthians.

The main thing for me was that eventually the Word became alive in me, and dwelt in me richly. God is speaking to us! This was in direct contradistinction to WL's telling us that the scriptural word only meant this or that. In the LRC, if WL couldn't see anything, then the word was dead to us his acolytes. No; now I began to apprehend that it was God Himself inspiring these words of hope and revelation and light. The word became alive to me, and opened a spiritual realm beyond my dreams. God's own dream was revealed to me in those words, a world that was so real and clear and true...

Can you imagine if Peter, standing with the eleven, had said, "David's grave is with us to this day. Therefore these words are merely natural." (Acts 2:29-31) No, he said, "These words indicate Jesus the Christ." One day, like the author of Hebrews, I also saw the text and I also saw Jesus, made a little lower than the angels, and crowned with glory and honour (Heb 2:9).

To quote the narrator in Robert Frost's poem, "And that has made all the difference."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken

Basically, three things: first I began to read scholarship. Second, it was scholarship of the patristics, those who'd met with the disciples (i.e. Papias, Irenaus, etc). So it was modern investigation of the first commentaries of the NT, which arguably was itself a commentary and explication that the OT indicated and revealed to fallen man the beloved of God's heart, Jesus Christ. Third, I then began to appropriate it as if it were real. It was "name it and claim it", to some degree. I began to declare the visions of the texts as if they were real, and they simply began to open for me. The world became new -- a whole new world unfolded. A dimension beyond space and time, a dimension of spirit.

Ohio · 10-03-2014, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I was spending all my time in the LRC pretending to be "good building material". It was exhausting. Eventually I collapsed from the strain. It took me years to admit my abject failure. But God is merciful; eventually I saw the unique "good building material." His name is Jesus Christ.

Well said. So well said.

And so typical of man-pleasing arrangements.

Reminded me of a story that helped to deliver me from that system. For years our local leader went to cleveland for "fellowship," only to bring back some new program. On his next visit there, he would then give glowing reports of how the new program was "working." After years of maintaining this bogus facade to the lords in cleveland, one Sunday we were visited by one of these lords during our meeting. Oops, the facade was over. I could see it in his face. The meeting was "dead." There was no hiding it. Our numbers less than half of what was reported. No more burning testimonies. Their programs never worked for us.

Our leader then got called before the cleveland lords to give account. He couldn't pretend. He couldn't be honest. He had "failed" and needed a life jacket. A flash of brilliance crossed his mind. It was not his fault, it was Ohio's fault. Yep! And that other brother too! So the two of us were offered up to the cleveland lords, and our local leader lived another day to give more bogus reports to those cleveland lords ...

awareness · 10-03-2014, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks you Ohio for this. It's not fair to the starter of a thread to have it constantly sidetracked.

I see now where I went wrong. I brought up the last 12 verses in Mark, that bearbear was basing his promise on.

I said the those were added by a later scribe and weren't inspired of God.

But I was wrong. The whole Bible is inspired by God, even the 400,000 variations in the manuscripts.

So Mark, or whoever wrote Mark - we don't know - was inspired of God and all the editions afterward were inspired of God too, even those of later scribes, with their edits, additions, deletions, and changes.

I guess God just needed to edit His rough drafts.

So bearbear, go pick up some Rattlesnakes ... and drink poison.

God said it. Believe it. Praise Him.

And get back to us. Make videos. We want to see the miracles of God.

Ohio · 10-03-2014, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Funny thing -- I come from a big family of alkies, and one of my cousins got sober in the Mormons, and another got sober in the Buddhists, and I got sober with Witness Lee. So we all got "healed", of a sort.

Amazing how religion works for some. Where i grew up, a bunch of locals used to bag glue all the time for a cheap "high." Later on I heard that one of them got delivered after becoming a JW.

awareness · 10-03-2014, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Amazing how religion works for some. Where i grew up, a bunch of locals used to bag glue all the time for a cheap "high." Later on I heard that one of them got delivered after becoming a JW.

Of course I don't know how it is for everyone but I know of cases where religion just became a replacement addiction. It may be a better addiction, whichever religion is in play ... in the short run ... with side effects later.

aron · 10-04-2014, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Amazing how religion works for some. Where i grew up, a bunch of locals used to bag glue all the time for a cheap "high." Later on I heard that one of them got delivered after becoming a JW.

The reason I told the story is that miraculous tales of healing don't necessarily "prove" the validity of someone's healing power. Don't forget the placebo effect.

So if some guy is addicted, suicidal, then goes to a talk by some Pentacostal or charismatic minister and suddenly becomes a new person, maybe it was just his time to turn it around. He could have gotten an miraculous epiphany at a rock concert, a poetry reading, an art exhibit, watching football or a movie, or becoming a Moonie.

aron · 10-04-2014, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

If anyone has a health problem or any other kind of specific prayer request you can post it here and I and others who feel led to can pray for it. I'm leaving for a wedding tomorrow so I won't be around this weekend, but I will be available at least tonight.

Bearbear,

I was trained in science and so if I don't see a double-blind study I have skepticism. But I still believe that the power of faith is not something to be dismissed. Just because we can't measure something it doesn't mean that it isn't real.

I myself have done a lot of reading in the past few years, of the ancient writers. Those people had access not only to what we call scripture (i.e. the canonical Biblical text), but also the oral traditions.

Over time the "orthodox" movement pushed aside many of these original commentaries. Then the Great Schism occurred and the non-canonical commentaries receded further away, in the Western church. Then the Reformation occurred and the Protestant secessionists were even further form the original commentaries, and largely had their logical constructions and a few commentaries like Augustine. But the conversation had become very damaged. The Brethren and Little Flock writers had "sola scriptora" and their own vain imaginations.

So we received the teaching of Nee and Lee, that there was one "seer" per age, who would tell everyone else what the scriptures meant in the present age, included discussions of works of power. But I believe that everyone has access to the revelation of the Holy Spirit. Everyone can have the text speak to them, and bring them where God desires. And yes that includes delivering those around us who are oppressed. Sometimes in remarkable ways. The power of the Holy Spirit is immense. We just don't see it. It is remote, largely, and so we remain cut off. (again, here, I am writing as a believer here).

I occasionally try to talk to people about my visions and revelations, which I see in the Word and which I find myself unable to ignore or pretend are not there. But ultimately I realize that I have to live it, not just talk about it. We are ultimately judged by being doers of the word, and not just hearers or talkers. I realize a vision has a responsibility, that "to whom much is given, much is required." I accept that. God is good.

May the Lord bless your journey. You are what you are. Your story is your story. Just try to live in the reality of what you have seen. If it is truly of God then surely it will impact the lives of others and be a blessing poured out upon the earth.

Don't get discouraged if your ideas don't make much sense to others on an internet discussion forum. Ideas come and go; just live in the reality of the present moment and God will use those ideas to bring you into all the reality destined for you. Sometimes being a prophet is a lonely job. You can't prove anything to anyone; you just have to live it before God's throne.

awareness · 10-04-2014, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The reason I told the story is that miraculous tales of healing don't necessarily "prove" the validity of someone's healing power. Don't forget the placebo effect.

So if some guy is addicted, suicidal, then goes to a talk by some Pentacostal or charismatic minister and suddenly becomes a new person, maybe it was just his time to turn it around. He could have gotten an miraculous epiphany at a rock concert, a poetry reading, an art exhibit, watching football or a movie, or becoming a Moonie.

This is not mentioned in the gospels, that I know of. I read not long ago by a historian of the early Christian days that, back when Jesus was healing there were many healers.

The big difference between them and Jesus was that they were charging for their healings, while Jesus was healing for free, like it was a gift from God.

So, Jesus was subverting and undermining the healing business back then. Jesus was such a troublemaker.

awareness · 10-04-2014, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Over time the "orthodox" movement pushed aside many of these original commentaries. Then the Great Schism occurred and the non-canonical commentaries receded further away, in the Western church.

And talk about supernatural occurrences ... God preserved them, or some of them (maybe He's got more hidden away, that He's preserving right now).

We call them the Dead Sea Scrolls & the Nag Hammadi codices. And they are fascinating beyond measure. At least to me. A life time of reading. Much, much, entertainment. Lot's of silly stuff. Like a walking talking cross, following Jesus out of his tomb, who was taller than the heavens. LoL. And good stuff too.

Thank you Lord.

But they've prolly been meddled with. They too are copies of copies. But one of them, my favorite, The Gospel of Thomas, is thought by some scholars to be closet to the oral period, between the death of Christ and somewhere around Paul getting knocked off his horse (did he really get knocked off his horse?).

Again. Thank you Lord.

Or has all this been preserved by the devil ... to mislead the faithful?

Only God knows. And time will tell ... perchance. Be careful. It's scary out there ... er, ah, here.

aron · 10-04-2014, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

And talk about supernatural occurrences ... God preserved them, or some of them (maybe He's got more hidden away, that He's preserving right now).

We call them the Dead Sea Scrolls & the Nag Hammadi codices. And they are fascinating beyond measure. At least to me. A life time of reading. Much, much, entertainment. Lot's of silly stuff. Like a walking talking cross, following Jesus out of his tomb, who was taller than the heavens. LoL. And good stuff too.

Thank you Lord.

But they've prolly been meddled with. They too are copies of copies. But one of them, my favorite, The Gospel of Thomas, is thought by some scholars to be closet to the oral period, between the death of Christ and somewhere around Paul getting knocked off his horse (did he really get knocked off his horse?).

Again. Thank you Lord.

Or has all this been preserved by the devil ... to mislead the faithful?

Only God knows. And time will tell ... perchance. Be careful. It's scary out there ... er, ah, here.

Wanna see sumpin' scary? Look at the title of this thread: stories of power of the Holy Spirit.

Now look at these verses:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."

"You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him."

"For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."

"May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones."

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

"and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels."

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones'"

"He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.'"

Now where o where do you see the Holy Spirit mentioned here? Even the first 'trinitarian' formulas in the gospel of Matthew don't have the Holy Spirit, but rather the glory of the Father and the glory of the Son and with all the holy angels. My current guess is that we can see some NT variant on "Jehovah of hosts". But that is just a guess, and really unsupported by external sources. Actually I don't know what was going on there in those verses, but I don't pretend to either, and I don't bottle and sell my ignorance as the latest and greatest "High Peak Elixir".

I suspect that there's a lot more going on in the record than meets our modern eyes. Indeed, some of the 'ancient writings' may shed light on the NT/OT corpus. Some of the old commentaries may indeed misdirect. Some of them may do both. But at least we are, in the post-Dead Sea Scrolls era, quite freed from a Calvinistic "my few scriptures and my know-it-all attitude" trap that caught a number of the fundamentalist Protestant spin-offs like the Plymouth Brethren and the Little Flock/Local Church. And I know what it was like from experience, because I was there, too; I had the 164 special verses, all neatly arranged, which told the entire story of "God's eternal economy." I was so special, then. I knew everything. And I had it all in the palm of my hand.

aron · 10-04-2014, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Now where o where do you see the Holy Spirit mentioned here? Even the first 'trinitarian' formulas in the gospel of Matthew don't have the Holy Spirit, but rather the glory of the father and the glory of the son and all the holy angels. My current guess is that we can see some NT variant on "Jehovah of hosts".

...at least we are, in the post-DSS era, freed from the Calvinistic "my few scriptures and my know-it-all attitude" trap that seems to have caught a good number of the fundamentalist Protestant spin-offs like the Plymouth Brethren and Little Flock/Local Church...

I may have, as usual, over-stated my case, or over-generalized, but my sense is that part of our "goodly heritage" has been to take one or two or a dozen or twenty-two verses, create a template, and then run the Bible through our shiny new, home-made meat grinder. And the end result resembles the original as much as a sausage resembles a cow.

Look at "There is one Lord and one Spirit" of Paul's epistle to the Ephesians. Very good, right? Very clear. Then, when we quote the OT we might say, "Not by might or by strength but by My Spirit says Jehovah", simply ignoring the end part "...says Jehovah of hosts": our NT/Pauline/Ephesian formula "there is one Lord and one Spirit" simply removes any possible existence of, say, more than one holy spirit. Why? Because there is only one, that's why. That's the formula. And our Bible is shortened to accomodate our theology.

aron · 10-04-2014, 04:57 PM

I know I've been banging this drum for a while, and also know that folks won't line up behind me. As I said, it can be lonely being a prophet.

But one day I realized that the seven spirits before the throne actually only being the one Holy Spirit, sevenfold intensified by Lee's formula (admitted this formula is oft used. But here it's especially convenient: Lee's "the Lord is the Spirit" idea conveniently morphs into "the Lord Jesus Christ is the One Holy Spirit, sevenfold intesified to overcome the degradation of the seven Churches of history"). But I argue that the formula does not fit the text; it only fits the formula. If seven spirits are one spirit sevenfold, then is seven churches also one church sevenfold, or seven angels really one angel sevenfold? No, that's neither obvious nor convenient nor consistent. But the formula overcomes the presented seven spirits, even though they are repeatedly presented in the Revelation, simply because the formula must triumph. It triumphs over the text, and over consistency, and over common sense. The formula must triumph. Our "ministry" requires it.

A couple of years ago, I was visiting a friend on the East Coast of the U.S. We were in a big Anglican church, full of well-dressed professionals. At the end, the priest, garbed in white and silver, with some kind of shimmery crown on his head, and holding some kind of gilded staff, raised his palm to the respectable crowd and said, "Now may the blessing of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit be with you all." A voice inside me said, "That guy wouldn't know the Holy Spirit if it slapped him up side of the head." And it probably does, occasionally. Now, I don't know the Holy Spirit either. I also get buffeted by forces I don't comprehend. But I no longer pretend that I do. And like the protagonist in the Robert Frost poem, I say, "And that has made all the difference." Peace and grace to all who read this.

awareness · 10-04-2014, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Now, I don't know the Holy Spirit either. I also get buffeted by forces I don't comprehend. But I no longer pretend that I do.

Since the LC I have a reflex. If attending a speaking engagement, like a sermon by a preacher, if the speaker starts speaking like he's telling what God expects or don't expect, usually of me, or others, I get up and walk out. That's my kind way of dealing with pretenders.

If the encounter is of a social opportunity, and I even hear another acting like they know what God wants, or don't want, again usually for me and others, I'll speak up and say something like, "you don't know what God wants and don't want any more than anyone else does. Stop pretending."

I'm fond of sharing. Just don't act like you are laying God Himself on me. I'm not buying it. I fell big time for that kind of speaking with Witness Lee. Not fallin' fer it again.

aron · 10-05-2014, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm fond of sharing. Just don't act like you are laying God Himself on me. I'm not buying it...

I am fond of speculation, even probably wild speculation, at least from the fundamentalist perspective which is my upbringing. But I always try to label it as such. Truth is probably what you live more than what you think, and therefore I can't claim objective truth more than anyone else, in spite of all my attempts at rationality and reason and logic, as I peruse the holy writings.

But like you, my B.S. o-meter is pretty highly tuned after my tour in the Witness Lee Story Time camp. Those, like Lee, who claim to be something in this age, on this side of the Bema of Christ, are rather suspect in my jaundiced eye. And my jaundiced eye could reflect the operation of the Holy Spirit, e.g. in "discerning the spirits", those which are illusory versus those which contain reality. Or maybe it's just hard experience. (Or maybe that's the same thing).

But back to my original point here: I believe that the operative power of the Holy Spirit in us is that we can come to the sacred texts and receive divine speaking. Which is why I eventually realized that Lee erred in the Psalms, teaching us to effectively ignore them as non-indicative of God's revealed Christ. It was merely Lee's logic that told him that, which was colored by his emotional attachment to his ministry and his "God's economy" message, and we bought it as if it were sacred; you know, "the oracle" and all that. We ignored the NT template, we ignored Paul's injunctions, and we blindly followed the word of Lee.

Likewise, now I have permission to look in the gospel and see wording like "the glory of the Son and the glory of the Father and all the holy angels" and wonder how this affects our Trinity discussion? If Lee ignores it I am free to ignore him, and keep looking. And, likewise I am free to look at the Roman Centurion in the gospels saying, "I also have servants under me, and I tell this one, 'go', and...." and ask what is the spiritual analog of that, which the Centurion references? Angels? The power of the Holy Spirit? Who are the anologous servants under Jesus, in the Centurion's view?

And, I am likewise free to see Jesus saying in John 1:51 that you will see heaven open and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man, and if Witness Lee instead wants to focus on the church, and passes off the vision of angels ascending and descending with merely two words, "much traffic", ignoring implications of the actual imagery presented by Jesus, then I can trust the operative power of the Holy Spirit and focus on the actual words instead of Uncle Witness' Story Hour.

To me, that is the power of the Holy Spirit. This is why I came to the earth. To receive this Holy Spirit by faith in Jesus' name, and then to apprehend (with all the saints), and then to obey, and then to be faithful to abide in this heavenly vision, and not get distracted by someone else's snake oil salesmanship.

Peace.

Dancing · 10-05-2014, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Now where o where do you see the Holy Spirit mentioned here? Even the first 'trinitarian' formulas in the gospel of Matthew don't have the Holy Spirit, but rather the glory of the Father and the glory of the Son and with all the holy angels. My current guess is that we can see some NT variant on "Jehovah of hosts".

aron, I really appreciated your LAST post and was reading backwards and came across this. Are you inquiring about the reality of the Holy Spirit, ie. the trinity? Your comments here reminded me of this quote:

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." - Mat 12:31 KJV

I'll keep reading backwards...

aron · 10-05-2014, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dancing

Are you inquiring about the reality of the Holy Spirit, ie. the trinity? ...

Quite the contrary. The "reality" of the Holy Spirit, as you put it, might be much more real than we previously imagined. Think of the context of the thread, with the title, of "stories of power of the Holy Spirit". Is the Holy Spirit only manifested in supposed supernatural events? Or is it continually "ascending and descending" per John 1:51? I suppose it is perhaps quite close, nearer and more active than we think. (Or I have been led to think).

I am trying to point out that the evidence of God working through mediatory agents, angels, is perhaps much more pervasive than we have held. We Protestants (Little Flock/Local Church being a Protestant spin-off) have relegated angelic messengers & activities to Christmas eve pageants, when Gabriel talks to Mary, and the heavenly host appears above the shepherds watching their flocks by night. Lee basically ignored them. "Much traffic" is all we got out of John 1:51.

But if you look at the text the overlap of Spirit/Angel is worth considering. And I was doing so from the throne scene of Revelations chapters 1-5. John said there were 7 spirits burning there. Did Moses make one lamp, intensified sevenfold, or did the Menorah actually have seven lamps? Were there 12 gates in the New Jerusalem, each gate of one pearl, or was there instead one gate, intensified twelvefold? Were there 12 disciples, or one disciple intensified twelve-fold? Why then do we force the seven spirits to be one singular Holy Spirit intensified sevenfold? Because of Ephesians 4:4-6, from what I can see. Our formula requires it.

Look at the record in Acts: Philip going down the south road out of Jerusalem because an angel tells him to go down that way. Then the Holy Spirit tells him to run up to the Ethiopian eunuch's chariot. Unremarkable, to Lee et al. Ignored from what I can see.

And the Lord speaks to the angel of each of the seven Asian churches in Revs 2 & 3. Then each speaking concludes with, "Let him who has an ear, hear what the Spirit is speaking to the churches". The Lord Jesus first seems to be speaking to an angel, then at the end it is the Spirit speaking to the churches. Is the angel, the recipient in the beginning of the speaking, the same Spirit who speaks at the coda?

Is there one Holy Spirit, sevenfold, before the throne (Rev 1:4), and then seven stars which are seven angels to the seven churches(1:19), and later seven flames burning before the throne(4:5), and later seven eyes of the lamb(5:6), and still later (8:2) seven angels who stand before the throne? It is either getting very crowded there before God's throne, or all aspects of the same thing. Just asking if our understanding is based on the text or merely our formula. And yes I'm being provocative. And I haven't even gotten into "The Angel of the Lord", singular, prominently featured in the OT text, and the "Great Angel", singular, prominently featured the Revelation of John's text.

Ohio · 10-05-2014, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Just asking. Not inquiring about the reality of the Holy Spirit, but about the nature of the reality, and also asking if our understanding is based on the text or merely our formula. And yes I'm being provocative. And I haven't even gotten into "The Angel of the Lord", singular, prominently featured in the OT text, and the "Great Angel", singular, prominently featured the Revelation of John's text.

Jesus has been called an Angel of Jehovah, and as such a Messenger of God. Likewise the Spirit of God is an Angelic Messenger of God.

aron · 10-06-2014, 05:14 AM

My working thesis is that the original discussions of what is now the canonical NT text, and its relations to its source the OT (the main thrust of the NT composition was that Jesus the Nazarene fufilled the OT prophecies of the coming Messiah) got relegated to the back burner, or worse, once the Orthodox church was established. In the understandable desire for uniformly recognized truth in the land, any potential gray areas got swept under the rug.

Due to the ossification of the discussion and the orthodox hierarchy, a great schism erupted. Part of it, interestingly, was an inability to agree if the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father alone or from the Father and the Son (the so-called "filiolique controversy"). In other words, a hardening of view of the Trinity caused the church itself to rupture.

Then, the Western church found itself doubly removed from the source discussions. Then, 500 years later, Calvin and Luther found themselves trebly removed. They had their bare text and their own inspiration (justification by faith, etc). But much of the light they saw was merely reaction to the errors they were trying to be rid of. They were not able to see the text for what it was, but what they needed it to tell them at that time, to maintain a valid salvation experience, and good order in the church.

The Brethren and Little Flock and Lord's Recovery were no exception. The Bible meant whatever it needed to mean for us at that time. Looking back, we find areas where a lot of ink was spilled over one or two words in the text, while other whole sections of the very same text, even in the same passage and even the same verse or phrase, were simply ignored. Why? Because they weren't helpful to the emerging formula.

The power of the Holy Spirit allows us to return to the text and look at stuff that WL & co didn't think were important. But they were imporant to the writers of the text, and the writer wanted his/her reader to see it. So the Holy Spirit allows us to do just that.

Dancing · 10-06-2014, 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

I am trying to point out that the evidence of God working through mediatory agents, angels, is perhaps much more pervasive than we have held. We Protestants (Little Flock/Local Church being a Protestant spin-off) have relegated angelic messengers & activities to Christmas eve pageants, when Gabriel talks to Mary, and the heavenly host appears above the shepherds watching their flocks by night. Lee basically ignored them. "Much traffic" is all we got out of John 1:51.

No doubt...They are one AND they are many! Lol... many mysteries we should LEAVE OPEN to the Lord to teach us! Yes, if we "know it all" already He can't very well teach us anything. I have no problem with dumping what WL said so that we can truly read and receive.

aron · 10-06-2014, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

The Brethren and Little Flock and Lord's Recovery were no exception. ... a lot of ink was spilled over one or two words in the text, while other whole sections of the very same text, even in the same passage and even the same verse or phrase, were simply ignored. Why? Because they weren't helpful to the emerging formula.

The power of the Holy Spirit allows us to return to the text and look at stuff that WL & co didn't think were important..

I would like to offer a couple of examples. First is the dream of Jacob in Genesis 28. He called the place, Bethel, the house of God. WL, like most Christian teachers, references the church as God's house in the NT. Fine. Then, when Jacob pours oil on the stone, WL says that symbolizes the Holy Spirit. But Jacob didn't see the Holy Spirit, he saw heaven open and angels ascending and descending. But no mention by WL of angels because we were all good Protestants (even tho we may have changed our name). Then in John 1:51 WL repeats the same thing. Much ink is spilled on the house of God, and some on the Spirit, but no reference to the angels ascending and descending by WL except the vague phrase "much traffic". That's it; 2 words. And he goes on and on about the House of God, because of course that is his focus, to build up his organization. So the text gets unbalanced treatment according to the motives of the Bible expositor.

Second example: the Centurion's slave in Luke 7. The centurion's word says, "For I also am a man under authority, and I say to my servant, "Go", and he goes, and to one "come" and he comes, and to another "Do this", and he does it." Jesus marveled and said that there was no such faith in all of Israel. But the question that is begged by the centurion's word is simply ignored. Jesus clearly is also a man under authority, who came to do the Father's will. But who are the servant's of Jesus, that He merely needs to give the word to, and the Centurion's slave will be healed? Is the Holy Spirit the servant of Jesus? Or is it angels? Or some combination?

Look at Psalm 147. "Jehovah sends His command to the earth/His word runs swiftly". The Luke narrative said that "in that same hour the centurion's slave was healed", that Jesus said it was to be done. So the centurion indeed understood what was going on. Jesus just spoke the word and the slave was healed at that very hour. Indeed the word does run swiftly. But what did the centurion understand, that Jesus marveled? We don't ask, because it might upset our dogma. At least that is my impression. The centurion's explanation, that Jesus marveled at, is simply excised from the discussion. If Jesus has invisible servants who go and come at His word and do what He commands, we don't want to think about it because our job as Protestants is to ignore the angels. Or, how can we say the Holy Spirit is "under" Jesus? The centurion said, "I also have servants under me"????

So we ignore it. Not neat and tidy like our theology. We would rather be comfortable.

Lastly, the epistles directed to the seven churches in Revelations 2 and 3. Jesus spoke to the angel of the church in Fairview, and through the messenger, gave a word to the church there (actually Ephesus, Smyrna, etc but bear with me). So there we were in Fairview Ohio in 1974 and we would all go up to Christians there and say, "If God was going to write a letter to the church in Fairview, who would he write it to? The Baptists, or the Lutherans? Look at Revelations 2 and 3. Clearly there is only one church in each city." We were so smug. We had the truth. One church per city -- it was right there in Revelations 2 & 3. Christians were so blind. But we ignored the actual text, which said "To the angel of the church in Fairview." Not once did we ask, "Who is the angel of the church in Fairview?" No, we were too busy being superior and waving our superiority in the air. We ignored the words of the text because Lee told us to. We focused on what was convenient to the ministry of Witness Lee, and not what John the apostle actually wrote.

Those are just a few examples. And I could pick other subjects besides angels. I am simply trying to make a point. When we use a phrase like "in the power of the Holy Spirit" we are using a historically developed idea, which may not coincide exactly with the text. As Dancing put it so well, there are unknowns here, mysteries. It's okay. I'm okay with that. But it's worth mentioning that the ancient writers used to talk about this mysterious stuff. Long before Darby & Pember and Penn-Lewis and Nee and Lee plied their logic. Just something to consider. Peace.

aron · 10-06-2014, 07:28 AM

Anyway, I've kind of overstated my case, I am sure. But I thought the point worth bringing to the discussion. When Bearbear talks about his friend getting healed, and I talk about angels ascending and descending, we may be discussiong complementary things. And I want us to realize that with me just writing, it is empty rhetoric. And with Bearbear just talking about healing, we may miss what is going on. The Roman Centurion knew what was going on, and Jesus responded, didn't he? So let's also let the text invigorate our co-operation with the works of power of the Holy Spirit.

Really, that is all I am trying to say. I am just another doofus on the Jesus bus. We all have something to say and I just wanted to share my little portion. Thanks for bearing with me. Peace to all.

Dancing · 10-07-2014, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

Anyway, I've kind of overstated my case, I am sure. But I thought the point worth bringing to the discussion. When Bearbear talks about his friend getting healed, and I talk about angels ascending and descending, we may be discussiong complementary things. And I want us to realize that with me just writing, it is empty rhetoric. And with Bearbear just talking about healing, we may miss what is going on. The Roman Centurion knew what was going on, and Jesus responded, didn't he? So let's also let the text invigorate our co-operation with the works of power of the Holy Spirit.

Hear Hear! Worth repeating...

"He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward." - Mat 10:40-42 KJV

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." - Jhn 14:12 KJV

aron · 10-19-2014, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit...I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today...I just wanted to open up this thread to anyone who had other direct experiences with the Holy Spirit and has adopted a supernatural worldview after leaving the LCs.

Acts 4:29-30
And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Perhaps the reason that "signs and wonders" got set aside in mainstream, post-Reformation Christianity (tho revived in charismatic wings of RCC & Protestantism) can be found in the emergence of church history itself. We tell truncated tales of what happened (i.e. history) and perhaps miss important events along the way -- our view becomes, in a word, oversimplified. To make things simple, and easily grasped, we simplify the story; didn't Lee give us a simplified history? Lee's version: Jesus, then Paul, then a dark "interregnum" with a few mystics sprinkled here and there, then suddenly a "recovery" with Luther, Darby, Nee and Lee. Hallelujah for the Lord's recovery! Right!?! And this recovery story allowed the early 19th century European (Wales, Scotland) revivals, pre-Nee, with their "works of power" accompanying them, as part of it. But they ceased. Why? Because it was convenient to Lee's oversimplified history.

So let me give my own, admittedly brief history. The NT is full of works of power. Chock-a-block full. Angels ascending and descending, heavens opened, demons leaving people with foaming mouths and loud shrieks, miraculous healings, mysterious portents ("Go into Jerusalem, there you will see a man walking with a water jar. Follow him..."). This continued post-resurrection: Peter and Paul both evidenced "gifts of the Holy Spirit" and miraculous "works of power". The tales, post canonized scripture, in church history, continue, albeit sporadically, of the "signs and wonders performed in the name of your holy servant Jesus" (Acts 4:30). But something happened, I believe, in the 4th through 10th centuries, a turn the narrative focus to "truth" instead of "power". (Like Lee switching his gears in the 1970s from "life" to "truth".) Somehow the idea of concretizing orthodoxy became paramount. That is what I see in the literature.

Thus set the stage for the Great Schism. The church fellowship was eventually broken asunder over issues of "truth", and proper organizational schemes, among other issues. The focus had gone from signs and wonders to the proper arrangement of words, and the proper arrangement of ecclesiastical structure. So when Luther "rebelled" against the RCC 500 years later, many of the Pre-Schism experiences, indeed the entire Orthodox testimonies (Greek, Syrian, Slavic, Ethiopian etc) were long forgotten, and the RCC was conceptually dominant as the "Great Harlot" astride the entire earth. Luther had a truncated view, and a truncated story of history and his place in it. (Unless someone can point out Luther recognizing the Orthodox churches, which I would like to see. Probably not, tho; they had just left the Middle Ages and the conceptual worldview was greatly reduced. To turn to the physical for analogy, the late Middle-Age focus, and argument, was over whether the sun revolved around the earth, or vice versa, and whether Asia lay to the east or west of Europe, and what if anything was between them.)

So the story of what lay in the past, to Luther and Calvin et al, was simplified, merely to recover salvation of grace, and by faith. Works, and angels ascending and descending, and "You simply speak the word and my servant will be healed" were bit players on the scene, showing that the pre-resurrection Jesus was clearly the Savior. But the rest of the textual record, and the reading of history, was minimized, even to non-existence.

Now to my point: I believe that just like Luther and Calvin, we all look at the text and tell ourselves simplified stories. And what stories we tell ourselves control what we see in the text. This is my point about orthodoxy: I understand its place and recognize its purpose, and I accept it, but pre-Nicene they were free to find meaning, and reality, where the text led them. Post Nicene they had to agree whether the Spirit came from the Son or from the Father. And they were willing to fight, and to separate, over their stories, their truths... never mind if nobody saw any works of power of the Holy Spirit again, beyond perhaps the miracle of faith and regeneration, and some amount of transformation.

So I think that Lee telling us that Nee read all the books worth reading, and sorted the conceptual wheat from the chaff, was really aggrandizing, self-serving nonsense. (like a 3rd grader telling the 1st graders that he is teaching post-graduate level studies: "There is simply nothing beyond my view, and my story of reality").That led to the idea of Nee, then Lee, being the "seer of the age", with his extremely simplified understanding of the text completely dominating the ecclesia. So instead of each one of us coming to the ecclesia and "each one has" a song, a story, a teaching, an interpretation, a testimony, we instead gathered and all talked about Lee's songs, stories, teachings, interpretations, and testimonies. So if Lee wasn't interested in works of power, which he wasn't, neither were we. If Lee couldn't see heavens opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man, then neither could we.

Today the door is open. Each one of us has a vision, an experience, a tongue, a gift, a healing. Each one has something to bring. So if bearbear talks about miraculous healings and I follow and talk about John 1:51, how do you know if we are not talking about the same thing? Neither bearbear or I is the sole "seer of the age" to dominate the conversation, but each of us has a part to play in the great unfolding. His experience hopefully illuminates mine, when we gather in Jesus' ecclesia, and vice versa.

Whenever you come together in His name, and are in agreement, the gates of Hades themselves cannot withstand your collective power. The dead will be raised, the prisoners freed, the eyes of the blind will be opened, the lame will walk, the mute will suddenly praise God for His mighty works among you. The name of Jesus has come, and we're gathered in this name, and in this name each receive his or her neighbor. By faith in this name we can respect the portion of each one who has. Even the agnostics and atheists are welcome; they can chatter on the fringes of the gathering. I was there once -- why should I refuse others? Let them continue their journey. If we are truly one and our voices are in harmony (even allowing multifarious voices, visions, experiences, understandings) in the Jesus meeting, then the unbeliever will perhaps be impressed and will fall down, exclaiming that God is working among us. If we simply gather to argue about the "truth", then the unbeliever will rightly go on, still looking for reality.

bearbear · 10-19-2014, 09:41 PM

I've never seen angels before. However an elder at my church has a gifting that allows him to see angels sometimes and so does one of his daughters. They sometimes see the same angels in their house and elsewhere.

Well here's a story of angels my mother told me.

My grandma was a single mother who raised 8 kids in Taiwan (3 of them were hers, 5 others were adopted after my Grandma' sister in law committed suicide). After she became a Christian, she lived by faith and had many miraculous experiences of prayers answered. In many instances stuff like this would happen: the family would have no food or money and my Grandma would simply pray and an hour later someone would show up at the door with groceries. Despite being poor, they never had a lack because of my Grandmother's faith.

During some time there was a buddhist/taoist temple (Taiwanese religion is syncretic of many eastern religions) that was constructed next to the house. My grandmother was afraid there would be a demonic influence near my house as incense and smoke arose from the temple everyday. So she prayed that God would protect the family and the house.

One day my mom was with her little sister in the bedroom lying on the bed. As my aunt looked out the window, she saw a chorus of angels singing next to the house! They took that to mean that God had answered their mom's prayer. They also understood it as a sign that God cared for and loved them.

Sounds crazy but my Grandma and my parents aren't Charismatic at all. Having later passed through many decades in the LC they shy away from anything supernatural. According to my Grandma, these kind of things happened regularly in the LCs before Witness Lee's influence grew in Taiwan. Yet they can't deny what they experienced and saw.

bearbear · 10-19-2014, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So bearbear, go pick up some Rattlesnakes ... and drink poison.

God said it. Believe it. Praise Him.

So I'm definitely not advocating anyone do this or abuse the promise in Mark 16:18, I'm in agreement that if you do, you'll not only be testing God but you'll probably die. Mark 16:18 was a verse that was set in the context of the Great Commission. Back in Jesus' days the desert was viewed as a dangerous place because of snakes. Jesus' main point was to tell his disciples not be afraid to go out and preach the gospel because God would be with them to protect them.

That said if you are doing God's work and find yourself in a situation where you are forced to take poison or deny Jesus, then the promise in this verse could apply.

This was the case of Sadhu Sundar Singh, a sikh in India who became a Christian during the early 20th century. After becoming a believer at the age of 14 his Dad allowed him one final meal before kicking him out of the house. However, unbeknownst to Sundar, poison was added to his meal to kill him. After laying sick on a hospital bed, a doctor gave him the bad news that he wouldn't survive. However he told him to get a bible, and then pointed to the verse Mark 16:18 as he lay sick. Later he had a miraculous recovery, which surprised the doctor so much that he became a believer. If you'd like to read more, here's his biography which is pretty amazing and worth the time to read:

http://www.akademijavjecnogproljeca...._Biography.pdf

Ohio · 10-20-2014, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So bearbear, go pick up some Rattlesnakes ... and drink poison. God said it. Believe it. Praise Him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

According to my Grandma, these kind of things happened regularly in the LCs before Witness Lee's influence grew in Taiwan. Yet they can't deny what they experienced and saw.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

However he told him to get a bible, and then pointed to the verse Mark 16:18 as he lay sick. Later he had a miraculous recovery, which surprised the doctor so much that he became a believer.

I have read too much church history not to believe bearbear's stories. I do believe that our Heavenly Father loves to care for His children in untold miraculous ways, and these stories all told could fill every library on earth.

But He also knows man's heart. When tempted to perform miracles, God never seems to oblige. Jesus Himself appeared almost impotent when tested by Satan in the wilderness. God manifested in the flesh unable to make a loaf of bread?

So I find awareness' challenge above quite presumptuous. Have the believers been bitten by snakes and lived? Absolutely! Read about Paul in Acts. Can Christians tempt God with rattlesnakes and die? Absolutely! I have a newspaper account of this on my shelf.

As the Bible says, God's ways are not our own. His heart of love will not be compromised by our evil snares. Neither does our God like stage shows made for TV. Neither does He give His glory to man, except for His Son, the Man who died for us.

aron · 10-20-2014, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've never seen angels before. .

Maybe you completely misunderstand me, or else think my point is not worth noticing or commenting on. I think it important, so let me reiterate.

When the writer of Hebrews said, "but we see Jesus" he/she didn't mean that he saw a vision of Jesus before him/her. Rather that we can perceive Jesus, made a little lower than the angels (incarnation), typified in the OT record. Also the glories that followed, etc. The author didn't see a "vision" before him physically, but rather had "revelation" that by faith he could percieve the hidden spiritual world through the physical world that was represented in the text of people like David, Abraham, Moses, etc.

Now, we can "see Jesus" in Psalm 3 where the writer says "I laid me down and slept; I awaked for the LORD sustained me" ("I have the power to lay my life down, and the power to raise it up again, etc"), and Psalm 119 "All you evil doers get behind me" (several times in the NT, including to PETER!).

Etc etc. We can see Jesus there. Lee read the Bible with a personal lens, with a historically (Protestantism/Bretheren) derived lens, with an Asian cultural lens, with a theologically blindered lens. So if he couldn't see Jesus he mesmerized us to follow and similarly be blind.

Likewise with the angels. If the Centurion said, "I also have servants under me..." who was he talking about? So when Jesus told Nathaniel that he would see heaven opened and the angels ascending and descending, then maybe Nathaniel saw this fulfilled when Jesus turned the water to wine, when he spoke a word and the Centurion's servant was healed, etc.

My thesis is that a marvelous supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is that we can come to the text and see Jesus, and see angels ascending and descending, see the heavens opened, etc. Or is it just my vain imagination? That's why I come to the ekklesia, to present my visions. If others don't get it, then I can let it go. No big deal. But at least I have been freed from the blinders of Lee & Nee.

awareness · 10-20-2014, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

So I'm definitely not advocating anyone do this or abuse the promise in Mark 16:18,

That's a relief. I have worried about you ever since I told you to pick up snakes and drink poison. And then you disappeared. I'm glad to see you are okay, and didn't take my crazy advice. I don't think I could have lived with myself if I read in the news that you died from snakebite, by taking advice off the web.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bb

This was the case of Sadhu Sundar Singh, a sikh in India who became a Christian during the early 20th century. After becoming a believer at the age of 14 his Dad allowed him one final meal before kicking him out of the house. However, unbeknownst to Sundar, poison was added to his meal to kill him. After laying sick on a hospital bed, a doctor gave him the bad news that he wouldn't survive. However he told him to get a bible, and then pointed to the verse Mark 16:18 as he lay sick. Later he had a miraculous recovery, which surprised the doctor so much that he became a believer.

And Watchman Nee was born of a virgin. Just kidding ... sorta of. I guess we have to live with the creative mythographers. No great leader or hero is really great until the mythmakers have put down their pen, if they ever do.

A few years back, a very dear friend, from C. in Detroit days -- when Kangas was just an idealist, and not Lee's scribe -- got me into Sundar. She was so caught up with Sundar she bought me a bunch of his books for my Kindle.

Sundar didn't catch me, like he did to my dear friend. I think his was a call to my friend, who went Eastern after the LC, to come back. I'm not sure, as she's become such a Universalist when it comes to most all religions. Maybe Sundar was just added to her list.

Anyway, Sundar is interesting. And I go back to him on my Kindle from time to time. Thanks for the link.

countmeworthy · 10-20-2014, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I've never seen angels before. However an elder at my church has a gifting that allows him to see angels sometimes and so does one of his daughters. They sometimes see the same angels in their house and elsewhere.

Well here's a story of angels my mother told me.

My grandma was a single mother who raised 8 kids in Taiwan (3 of them were hers, 5 others were adopted after my Grandma' sister in law committed suicide). After she became a Christian, she lived by faith and had many miraculous experiences of prayers answered. In many instances stuff like this would happen: the family would have no food or money and my Grandma would simply pray and an hour later someone would show up at the door with groceries. Despite being poor, they never had a lack because of my Grandmother's faith.

During some time there was a buddhist/taoist temple (Taiwanese religion is syncretic of many eastern religions) that was constructed next to the house. My grandmother was afraid there would be a demonic influence near my house as incense and smoke arose from the temple everyday. So she prayed that God would protect the family and the house.

One day my mom was with her little sister in the bedroom lying on the bed. As my aunt looked out the window, she saw a chorus of angels singing next to the house! They took that to mean that God had answered their mom's prayer. They also understood it as a sign that God cared for and loved them.

Sounds crazy but my Grandma and my parents aren't Charismatic at all. Having later passed through many decades in the LC they shy away from anything supernatural. According to my Grandma, these kind of things happened regularly in the LCs before Witness Lee's influence grew in Taiwan. Yet they can't deny what they experienced and saw.

not crazy to me bear bear !
I have had several encounters with angels. I have seen 2 of them in my life and they were together moving the impact of the car that hit me on my side head on. Nothing happened to me. When the car stopped spinning around, I looked up and saw two huge angels almost translucent by the front tire of the drivers side. This event took place when I was in the LC !!!!!!!!

I have also heard angels sing in my bedroom. (But I have also experienced demons walking and standing over me.

I have not seen them, just felt their presence. SPEAKING the BLOOD OF JESUS OVER ME made them leave instantly.

All Praise and Glory to our LORD JESUS!)

AND........ DRUM ROLL........
I was privileged and honored to have seen Jesus and have Him speak audibly to me. At the time, I did not know it was Him. But later, as I sought Him and fellowshipped with others about the incident, it was confirmed it WAS HIM. He did not appear to me in His Glory. In fact, He was not attractive at all. But His Word to me was super POWERFUL, and initially I was embarrassed.

I was at a store pushing a grocery cart but looking sideways at the produce. I then felt a slight push on my cart and a voice that said 'watch it!' I looked up as the man was walking past me and I said, 'I'm sorry I did not see you.' Then with a BOISTEROUS VOICE as if He had a microphone, really a MICROPHONE, He said to me 'DON'T BE SORRY ! YOU'RE FABULOUS!!!!!!!!' I turned around to see HIM and He was walking backwards facing me with a big smile.

I smiled back. But was embarrassed thinking the whole store heard HIM. Yet people around me did not hear HIM. His appearance was neat. He wore jeans and I think He was wearing a plad buttoned down shirt tucked into His jeans. His Hair was brown almost shoulder length, with a beard/mustache. Slim and not very tall... maybe 5'8. And not attractive at all.

....JUST like He is described in the Bible. But That THUNDEROUS VOICE and that Smile was HIS.

OH.... how I LOVE JESUS !!!!!!!!!!! COME LORD JESUS. THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY COME !

LOVE YA'LL,
Carol

bearbear · 10-21-2014, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

not crazy to me bear bear !
I have also heard angels sing in my bedroom. (But I have also experienced demons walking and standing over me.

I have not seen them, just felt their presence. SPEAKING the BLOOD OF JESUS OVER ME made them leave instantly.

All Praise and Glory to our LORD JESUS!)

Awesome testimony Carol!

Regarding hearing angel's sing, that remind's me of Jason Upton's testimony of what happened during his recording of "Fly":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zo6Nu5W256M

Here's the full song (the voice that comes in after a few minutes is of unknown origin as there was only one singer):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHRWo-TrjXQ

2 Chronicles 5:12-14

All the Levites who were musicians—Asaph, Heman, Jeduthun and their sons and relatives—stood on the east side of the altar, dressed in fine linen and playing cymbals, harps and lyres. They were accompanied by 120 priests sounding trumpets.The trumpeters and musicians joined in unison to give praise and thanks to the Lord. Accompanied by trumpets, cymbals and other instruments, the singers raised their voices in praise to the Lord and sang:

“He is good;
his love endures forever.”

Then the temple of the Lord was filled with the cloud, and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the Lord filled the temple of God.

bearbear · 10-21-2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

My thesis is that a marvelous supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is that we can come to the text and see Jesus, and see angels ascending and descending, see the heavens opened, etc. Or is it just my vain imagination? That's why I come to the ekklesia, to present my visions. If others don't get it, then I can let it go. No big deal. But at least I have been freed from the blinders of Lee & Nee.

I agree there is a kind of supernatural seeing that the bible talks about which is not our natural sight but a spiritual one. Jesus talked about spiritual eyes and ears when he spoke about having ears to hear and eyes to see. So far we have covered experiences where the spiritual has broken out into the natural, yet I acknowledge these experiences are not necessary for every Christian to have as there is a special blessing for those who believe yet have not "seen" with natural eyes (John 20:29). However, there are some who won't believe unless they see, and Jesus is okay with that also, as he was with showing Thomas the nails in his hand.

John 4:48
So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”

2 King 6:17
Then Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes and let him see!" The LORD opened the young man's eyes, and when he looked up, he saw that the hillside around Elisha was filled with horses and chariots of fire.

2 Cor 4:18
"as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal."

aron · 10-21-2014, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

I agree there is a kind of supernatural seeing that the bible talks about which is not our natural sight but a spiritual one. Jesus talked about spiritual eyes and ears when he spoke about having ears to hear and eyes to see. So far we have covered experiences where the spiritual has broken out into the natural, yet I acknowledge these experiences are not necessary for every Christian to have as there is a special blessing for those who believe yet have not "seen" with natural eyes (John 20:29). However, there are some who won't believe unless they see, and Jesus is okay with that also, as he was with showing Thomas the nails in his hand.

I understand, but eventually I began to see the text. It is supernatural because it describes the one who came down from Heaven.

Lee cheated us because he told us to look away from the text. He disparaged the text as "natural" and "fallen". But it was he who fell. He was blind and he kept us in darkness.

Justin · 10-22-2014, 09:56 AM

Maybe we need to pray for a Wind of Renewal of the H. Spirit to come upon the Local Churches again for the LORD's Glory

Justin · 10-22-2014, 10:03 AM

I myself have had a Supernatural encounter with the Lord before becoming a member of the Local Church , im not going to say what Locality cause of certain reasons.

zeek · 10-23-2014, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin

Maybe we need to pray for a Wind of Renewal of the H. Spirit to come upon the Local Churches again for the LORD's Glory

Maybe the Local Churches need to make some serious changes for that to happen. Perhaps they are unwilling or unable to do that. Maybe the Lord has moved on. Have you considered that?

Dave · 10-23-2014, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin

Maybe we need to pray for a Wind of Renewal of the H. Spirit to come upon the Local Churches again for the LORD's Glory

Why do you believe they need this "Wind of Renewal"? Are they having problems?

Dave · 10-23-2014, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin

I myself have had a Supernatural encounter with the Lord before becoming a member of the Local Church , im not going to say what Locality cause of certain reasons.

Are you doing okay now?

Justin · 10-24-2014, 11:59 AM

They need the Holy Spirits Move on them for more passion for Him & the Lost

Justin · 10-24-2014, 12:01 PM

Yes im still very close to the church that i recieved Christ in & the empowerment of the Holy Spirit

Dave · 10-24-2014, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin

Yes im still very close to the church that i recieved Christ in & the empowerment of the Holy Spirit

Thanks for responding. Sounds very positive. We all need a local Christian community made up of people who provide love, support and values that we not only understand, relate to, care about but also with whom we are actively involved.

Lisbon · 10-24-2014, 03:52 PM

One thing I learned in the LC that I still believe, the Lord doesn't pour new wine in old wine skins. Any one who does not see that the LC is just old wine skins hasn't been around very long.

Besides history of 2000 years also says the same thing. I never heard of a Christian sect that repented. We are always right in our own eyes and that's that. I doubt the LC would admit they are a sect. A lot of darkness there. Some think they still get help but I'm sorry I think they are deceived. I was personally so discouraged over a period of over ten years that none of the BBs would not have the sense that the group badly needed repentance. Remember, "all those in Asia have deserted me" and to the churches in Rev. "except you repent". They were only 20 to 40 years old at the most with real apostles at the helm. What we've had at the helm I won't say and we are over 60 years. The place is old.

Lisbon

aron · 10-25-2014, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lisbon

One thing I learned in the LC that I still believe, the Lord doesn't pour new wine in old wine skins. Any one who does not see that the LC is just old wine skins hasn't been around very long.

And some of the new wine skins out there are unsettling to say the least. One of the posters here recommended Che Ahn for the "power of the Holy Spirit", and I started reading about him and the whole "New Apostolic Reformation" movement. The KC apostles (IHOP), the Toronto Airport people, the Lakeland/Pensacola "outpouring". A lot of really, really unbalanced stuff.

But it's new!

Justin · 10-29-2014, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeek

Maybe the Local Churches need to make some serious changes for that to happen. Perhaps they are unwilling or unable to do that. Maybe the Lord has moved on. Have you considered that?

Then its Time 4 a newer Generation L Churchers to be rasied up

Justin · 10-29-2014, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However early on in the LC's history (before Witness Lee gained as much influence as he did perhaps) it seems like tongues, deliverance and healings were practiced here and there. My Grandma has many wild stories from her early start in the LCs of Taiwan in the 50s and 60s of healings and deliverances during her evangelism trips.

My mother was also healed of a leg injury when she was about 7 or 8 by a brother in Taiwan with the gift of healing (who's healing ministry Witness Lee later put a stop to).

I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

Just last weekend I attended a men's retreat in my church. On Sunday morning, I had pretty bad nasal congestion and had trouble speaking and breathing which was unfortunate because I was assigned to lead devotion in the morning. After a quick prayer in my head to the Lord about this matter, one brother gets up and announces that he felt led to pray for healing for anyone with nasal congestion. I raised my hand and after the group prayed for me, my sinuses cleared immediately. I've never had my nasal congestion symptoms disappear so quickly and I was more than ready to serve in our morning devotion that would follow.

I was happy and thankful, but not that surprised as I've experienced and seen these type of miracles occur over and over again in my church group and during our evangelism trips where we pray for healing to demonstrate the power of God to help others believe in God's love for them through Jesus.

That's one of the more tamer stories and I have a lot more I can share later, but that's the most recent one. I just wanted to open up this thread to anyone who had other direct experiences with the Holy Spirit and has adopted a supernatural worldview after leaving the LCs.

Acts 4:29-30
And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.

Me & a newer brother to the Church to were im at in Orange County I'll say for now , prayed for Healing for one another, after Lords day meeting ,with no hesitation from any one of the other brother's or elders,

Justin · 10-29-2014, 01:09 PM

Maybe thats what it takes the power of prayer of 2 brother's in Christ for Healing will start a new Renewal of the H.Spirit in the Local Churches

Justin · 10-29-2014, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And some of the new wine skins out there are unsettling to say the least. One of the posters here recommended Che Ahn for the "power of the Holy Spirit", and I started reading about him and the whole "New Apostolic Reformation" movement. The KC apostles (IHOP), the Toronto Airport people, the Lakeland/Pensacola "outpouring". A lot of really, really unbalanced stuff.

But it's new!

Ive benn only around the Local Church 4 two an half years, & havnt
changed my mind on the Supernatural worldview on the Kingdom of
GOD,

awareness · 10-29-2014, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin

Maybe thats what it takes the power of prayer of 2 brother's in Christ for Healing will start a new Renewal of the H.Spirit in the Local Churches

I wished for this, and did my darnedest to pray it into being, back in 1975-1980 and it only got worse from there. Now I see that as just wishful thinking.

Dave · 10-29-2014, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However early on in the LC's history (before Witness Lee gained as much influence as he did perhaps) it seems like tongues, deliverance and healings were practiced here and there. My Grandma has many wild stories from her early start in the LCs of Taiwan in the 50s and 60s of healings and deliverances during her evangelism trips.

My mother was also healed of a leg injury when she was about 7 or 8 by a brother in Taiwan with the gift of healing (who's healing ministry Witness Lee later put a stop to).

I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today.

Just last weekend I attended a men's retreat in my church. On Sunday morning, I had pretty bad nasal congestion and had trouble speaking and breathing which was unfortunate because I was assigned to lead devotion in the morning. After a quick prayer in my head to the Lord about this matter, one brother gets up and announces that he felt led to pray for healing for anyone with nasal congestion. I raised my hand and after the group prayed for me, my sinuses cleared immediately. I've never had my nasal congestion symptoms disappear so quickly and I was more than ready to serve in our morning devotion that would follow.

I attended an AOG Biblical College in Minneapolis and later in California for nearly 3 years. I spoke in tongues. I preached in churches etc. I saw Oral Roberts on the TV doing miracles. In all my time with the Pentecostals I never knew anyone who truly had a miracle that couldn’t be reasonably explained by medical science although there was always one or two things which couldn't be explained but some diseases respond anyway because of the natural process of the life within the body. I went to so many prayer meetings during those days praying for people. I think it was for that reason that I was more open to WL and WN and their discouragement of the gifts. The gifts just didn’t seem to be functioning like they did in the book of Acts:
· Ananias healed Saul’s blindness Acts 9:17-18
· Peter healed Aeneas Acts 9:32-35
· In Joppa, Peter raised Dorcus from the dead Acts 9:39-42
· Cornelius saw an angel. He and his family spoke in tongues, but he was saved by responding to the preaching of the gospel by Peter - Acts 10:4,46; cf. v. 48; 11:14
· Peter saw the vision on the roof and spoke with the Lord Acts10:9-22
· A prison gate was miraculously opened Acts 12:10
· Paul blinded Elymus Acts 13:11-12
· Paul performed miracles in Iconium Acts 14:3,4
· At Lystra, Paul healed a crippled man Acts 14:8-18
· Paul healed a woman possessed by an evil spirit Acts 16:18
· The miraculous earthquake unloosed all the chains and doors in the Philippian prison Acts 16:26
· In Ephesus, twelve men spoke in tongues, and prophesied Acts 19:6
· Paul performed other miracles in Ephesus Acts 19:11,12
· In Troas, Paul raised Eutychus from the dead Acts 20:8-12
· Paul was not affected by the viper at Melita Acts 28:3-6
· Paul healed those on the island who were diseased Acts28:8-9

If people can be healed such as from ebola why aren't the miracle workers down in those countries in Africa healing people. God would get the glory and it would hit national news. People would believe and the world would be saved. Back in the day of Acts there was no media and this info didn't get out beyond the locality until centuries later and probably not generally until the 16th century with the advent of the printing press. Where are these people who have this kind of faith? I am sure you realize that people can sometimes be gullible but I am speaking about undeniable miracles as reported in the book of Acts.

Ohio · 10-29-2014, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

God would get the glory and it would hit national news.

I think these two are mutually exclusive.

Dave · 10-29-2014, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think these two are mutually exclusive.

You may well be right but you get the point?

Ohio · 10-29-2014, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

You may well be right but you get the point?

I think the way God works we will never have "proof" that his miracles were legit. All the miracles in the book of Acts that you cited were explained away by the skeptics of the day. I agree with you that TV miracle workers are the real con-artists, but that does not mean that we do not see stories of the supernatural everyday among God's children.

Couple years ago I read a short book about numerous genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people. For example, in one story, one guy snuck into his neighbor's pool for a late night swim. As he was ready to dive off the diving board, an angel suddenly appeared to stop him. Turns out that the owner had just drained the pool. Stories like this are commonplace, but who could "prove" them?

Like they say, beauty, or should I say the "supernatural," is in the eyes of the beholder.

Dave · 10-29-2014, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think the way God works we will never have "proof" that his miracles were legit. All the miracles in the book of Acts that you cited were explained away by the skeptics of the day. I agree with you that TV miracle workers are the real con-artists, but that does not mean that we do not see stories of the supernatural everyday among God's children.

Couple years ago I read a short book about numerous genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people. For example, in one story, one guy snuck into his neighbor's pool for a late night swim. As he was ready to dive off the diving board, an angel suddenly appeared to stop him. Turns out that the owner had just drained the pool. Stories like this are commonplace, but who could "prove" them?

Like they say, beauty, or should I say the "supernatural," is in the eyes of the beholder.

Okay, I get what you are saying but "genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people" and you are going to take that at face value? I'm not trying to be a doubting Thomas here and certainly there are miracles from prayer but also miracles from medical science (maybe they work together). Back in the day of Jesus, people could die from an abscessed tooth. My wife, as Registered Nurse, donated time to a free medical clinic where a big part of the clinic was taking care of people with problems with their teeth. Today, we have a reasonable medical system which I presume you use from time to time as issues arise. Maybe you go to the dentist as well.

I always appreciate your input but I hope you are double checking some of these stories. Take care my friend.

awareness · 10-29-2014, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

In all my time with the Pentecostals I never knew anyone who truly had a miracle that couldn’t be reasonably explained by medical science although there was always one or two things which couldn't be explained but some diseases respond anyway because of the natural process of the life within the body. I went to so many prayer meetings during those days praying for people. I think it was for that reason that I was more open to WL and WN and their discouragement of the gifts. The gifts just didn’t seem to be functioning like they did in the book of Acts:

This brings me back to our Detroit days.

A brother Jim M had to have a back operation. Long short of it, he got staph infection in his spine, that sent his body into spasms every 3 or 4 minutes apart, day and night, causing arms and legs to violently shake in the air, while he let out bellowing screams, that sounded like they came from the pit of hell, and that reverberated across the entire floor of the hospital.

So Ron Kangas, Harry Ahlers, Tim Scroggins - the 3 elders - and I, went to visit brother Jim, while he was spasming & screaming. Long short of that was, we very loudly prayed over Jim, laid hands on him, and cast the demons out of him. I figured if anybody could do it, it would be Ron Kangas, of course.

Long short of that, the spasms broke Jim's heart down, and he had a heart attack. But they brought him back to life and saved him. After that, over time, he had four more heart attacks and died.

He told me something that stayed with me. It still comforts me to this day. After has fourth heart attack he told me: "This time they shocked me back to life four or five times, but I kept dying. And every time they shocked me back to life I yelled at them to stop. Because, I didn't want to leave the peace I felt when I was dead."

Dave · 10-29-2014, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

This brings me back to our Detroit days.

A brother Jim M had to have a back operation. Long short of it, he got staph infection in his spine, that sent his body into spasms every 3 or 4 minutes apart, day and night, causing arms and legs to violently shake in the air, while he let out bellowing screams, that sounded like they came from the pit of hell, and that reverberated across the entire floor of the hospital.

So Ron Kangas, Harry Ahlers, Tim Scroggins - the 3 elders - and I, went to visit brother Jim, while he was spasming & screaming. Long short of that was, we very loudly prayed over Jim, laid hands on him, and cast the demons out of him. I figured if anybody could do it, it would be Ron Kangas, of course.

Long short of that, the spasms broke Jim's heart down, and he had a heart attack. But they brought him back to life and saved him. After that, over time, he had four more heart attacks and died.

He told me something that stayed with me. It still comforts me to this day. After has fourth heart attack he told me: "This time they shocked me back to life four or five times, but I kept dying. And every time they shocked me back to life I yelled at them to stop. Because, I didn't want to leave the peace I felt when I was dead."

Jim M (Martin) was my uncle who I dearly loved. I brought him and many other "Martins" into the LC in Detroit. I remember those days at the hospital as if they were yesterday. He was a remarkable kind and sincere person with a family. His wife, Joyce, remarried someone in the LC. It wasn't long ago one of his daughters called me out of the blue and said she needed some money. Without hesitation I sent what she asked for. She and others of Jim M. kids have had a tough life but some are "friends" on facebook but I'll never forget those days at Holy Cross Hospital in Ft. Lauderdale (my daughter was born there BTW) where everyone was praying for Jim M. to live...my mother would have been comforted knowing his last words of peacefulness which you shared.

Ohio · 10-29-2014, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Okay, I get what you are saying but "genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people" and you are going to take that at face value? I'm not trying to be a doubting Thomas here and certainly there are miracles from prayer but also miracles from medical science (maybe they work together). Back in the day of Jesus, people could die from an abscessed tooth. My wife, as Registered Nurse, donated time to a free medical clinic where a big part of the clinic was taking care of people with problems with their teeth. Today, we have a reasonable medical system which I presume you use from time to time as issues arise. Maybe you go to the dentist as well.

I always appreciate your input but I hope you are double checking some of these stories. Take care my friend.

The stories we need to double check are those made for TV and designed to extort money from the sick and ailing. Stories, like the one I mentioned, I have no reason NOT to take at face value. The real thing does not come with fan fare, and once we see all the fan fare, it's prolly not legit.

bearbear · 11-16-2014, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

Okay, I get what you are saying but "genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people" and you are going to take that at face value? I'm not trying to be a doubting Thomas here and certainly there are miracles from prayer but also miracles from medical science (maybe they work together). Back in the day of Jesus, people could die from an abscessed tooth. My wife, as Registered Nurse, donated time to a free medical clinic where a big part of the clinic was taking care of people with problems with their teeth. Today, we have a reasonable medical system which I presume you use from time to time as issues arise. Maybe you go to the dentist as well.

I always appreciate your input but I hope you are double checking some of these stories. Take care my friend.

I believe we should always go to the doctor and take practical steps to take care of our health, as Paul suggested Timothy to take wine for his stomach (1 Tim 5:23). I believe God does want to heal, and especially for the gospel but he also doesn't want us to be lazy and rely on healing gifts as a way to benefit ourselves. I'd also fully support any missionary work using regular medical practices.

However when such things are not available, especially in Africa, there's been a lot of documented evidence of miracles occurring for the spreading of the gospel.

A famous church planter in Africa, Surprise Sithole, raised over 10,000 churches starting from when he was fourteen by simply going city to city and preaching the gospel. With limited resources, he had no choice but to rely on supernatural help from God when difficult circumstances came. His biography is a great read:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006N5OANE?btkr=1

awareness · 11-17-2014, 10:06 AM

bearbear & Dave,

I have a friend of long standing. In fact he met the Lord when he came to see me in Santa Cruz. He was in the LC for a short while but left, after I went to the church in Detroit. As a result I lost track of him for a long time. When I finally found him he was a Pentecostal preacher. He told me stories of healing people.

A few years ago he went to the doctor with a friend. While there the doctor checked his blood sugar count. He was alarmed. Ron's blood sugar reading was over 300, when between 100 and 150 is the healthy range. The doc told him that his high blood sugar was damaging his organs, and that he had to do something about it.

Well after asking the doctor about diabetes he told him that that is all he needed to know, and that God would heal him thru prayer.

A few years go by and suddenly he's having problems with his eyesight. At one point his sight went black. Then he had to see a doctor. Lo and behold his blood sugar was still over 300. His prayers didn't work, and God did not heal him of diabetes.

As a result he had to go on insulin. Now if he had addressed his problem medically, and with diet, instead of prayer, back when he first discovered his disease, he could have avoided his type 2 diabetes from becoming advanced to the point of needing insulin. By believing in prayer he really harmed his health, and almost lost hie eyesight.

So I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in supernatural healing. Doing so could kill you, or seriously harm your health.

I think we've all heard these sort of stories of believers in Christian Science, and others of faith healing ilk, who refuse medical help in hopes of supernatural healing's. And how courts have gotten involved when children are at risk. We look at them like they are crazy ... and should.

UntoHim · 11-17-2014, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in supernatural healing.

Neither does the New Testament (that is, after the departure of the Lord Jesus, who was God incarnate and therefore had to power to heal without regard to any person, place or circumstance). After the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the opening chapters of Acts, we do not see much emphasis on supernatural healing. Neither do with see supernatural healing emphasized in the epistles of the New Testament.

Occasionally, God has seen fit to allow for supernatural healing. I have witnessed such healing first hand and have experienced supernatural healing myself. I don't talk about it much (even with my own family) because my faith is not based upon such external proofs, and therefore I don't see how it should be part of my testimony. Also I am very aware of how this matter has been used and abused by many deceived Christians, and even by a number of "wolves in sheep's clothing".

Once again, it all comes down to the Word of God. The apostle John warns us "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world - 1 John 4:1. This warning was probably written towards the end of the lives of the original apostles, and they had already experienced quite a number of false prophets who were claiming to have the gift of healing from God. Usually the "eye test" is all that is needed to discover that somebody is a false prophet or false healer.

bearbear · 11-17-2014, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Once again, it all comes down to the Word of God. The apostle John warns us "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world - 1 John 4:1. This warning was probably written towards the end of the lives of the original apostles, and they had already experienced quite a number of false prophets who were claiming to have the gift of healing from God. Usually the "eye test" is all that is needed to discover that somebody is a false prophet or false healer.

Yet the gift of teaching has also been abused by Witness Lee to draw people to himself away from Jesus. And just because the gift of teaching has been abused, it doesn't mean people should not pursue the gift of teaching. If someone's heart is corrupt, he'll use any means to draw people away from God to serve themselves or to line their own pockets. In the same way, we all know spiritual gifts have been abused, but that shouldn't stop those who are earnestly seeking the Lord from using them to serve others and serve God. Jesus gave us guidelines how to discern between false prophets (look at their fruit), but there's no command in the New Testament discouraging us from pursuing spiritual gifts because of fear of false prophets.

Actually, of all gifts in the NT, the teaching gift is the one that is de-emphasized the most. James says not many of us should teach (James 3:1) because those who do will be judged more strictly. Contrasted against this is Paul's urge for all believers to eagerly pursue spiritual gifts, especially prophecy (1 Cor 14:1).

1 Cor 14:1
Let love be your highest goal! But you should also desire the special abilities the Spirit gives--especially the ability to prophesy.

One of the reasons he gives is that a demonstration of the Spirit's power is useful for the gospel:

1 Cor 14:25
As they listen, their secret thoughts will be exposed, and they will fall to their knees and worship God, declaring, "God is truly here among you."

And Paul even boasts that his preaching was not in words of wisdom (relying on gift of teaching), but on a similar demonstration of the Spirit's power (signs and wonders) as was recorded in Acts.

1 Cor 2:4
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,

Paul even implied that someone's faith resting on witnessing the Spirit's power was a good starting point.

1 Cor 2:5
so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power

bearbear · 11-17-2014, 12:40 PM

There are quite a number of testimonies of believers in my church who became Christians after experiencing the Holy Spirit's power, and when I think about it, some of the people who seem to love Jesus the most had experience with signs and wonders as a starting point for their faith.

One of them inherited a autoimmune disorder of the kidneys that was incurable. He wasn't a believer then at the age of 17, but out of desperation, he sought his Aunt (who was a Christian) who gave him the advice of giving praise to the Lord Jesus for 20 minutes every morning.

He used to sit in the front row of our youth meetings looking dead and extremely depressed, but he would force himself to praise the Lord. After a few months he had a miraculous recovery and the doctors at nearby Stanford hospital documented it as a medical miracle. He was so transformed by what happened that he went on from there to become a man of prayer and then a leading youth minister, his personality also completely changed from being characterized by depression to one of joy and happiness. His parents were so surprised by his recovery that they also received Jesus and got baptized in the church.

Here's his testimony on youtube with English subtitles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd__A2BY__k

Dave · 11-17-2014, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bearbear

There are quite a number of testimonies of believers in my church who became Christians after experiencing the Holy Spirit's power, and when I think about it, some of the people who seem to love Jesus the most had experience with signs and wonders as a starting point for their faith.

One of them inherited a autoimmune disorder of the kidneys that was incurable. He wasn't a believer then at the age of 17, but out of desperation, he sought his Aunt (who was a Christian) who gave him the advice of giving praise to the Lord Jesus for 20 minutes every morning.

He used to sit in the front row of our youth meetings looking dead and extremely depressed, but he would force himself to praise the Lord. After a few months he had a miraculous recovery and the doctors at nearby Stanford hospital documented it as a medical miracle. He was so transformed by what happened that he went on from there to become a man of prayer and then a leading youth minister, his personality also completely changed from being characterized by depression to one of joy and happiness. His parents were so surprised by his recovery that they also received Jesus and got baptized in the church.

Here's his testimony on youtube with English subtitles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd__A2BY__k

I watched the video and I am impressed with your congregation and its dedication as well as the testimony of the young man who was healed of the autoimmune disorder although it does not appear to be incurable if you google it (it is relatively new). In any case, after years at a Pentecostal Bible College attending many “healing” services I am not confident in the outcome claimed by people in these services. It’s all a matter of faith i.e. faith if you want to believe it was related to the healing power of Jesus Christ. In any case, you have it all going…the wealth gospel and the healing powers…more power to you.

aron · 10-15-2016, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Couple years ago I read a short book about numerous genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people. For example, in one story, one guy snuck into his neighbor's pool for a late night swim. As he was ready to dive off the diving board, an angel suddenly appeared to stop him. Turns out that the owner had just drained the pool.

But in another case, the angel told the guy to jump, and the pool was also drained. Guess who's story got in the book? The first one. Not the second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

My thesis is that a marvelous supernatural work of the Holy Spirit is that we can come to the text and see Jesus, and see angels ascending and descending, see the heavens opened, etc. Or is it just my vain imagination? That's why I come to the ekklesia, to present my visions. If others don't get it, then I can let it go. No big deal.

I bring this thread forward because it's in the testing of the 'ekklesia' that our visions are proved. The church is important, not only to see Jesus, but to examine what we see. We all want to go deeper. That 'testing' and 'going deeper' is the best invitation to the unbeliever, the struggling, the lost, the shipwrecked and hopeless. Surely the world needs such testimony!

Ohio · 10-15-2016, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Couple years ago I read a short book about numerous genuine stories of angel intervention in the lives of ordinary people. For example, in one story, one guy snuck into his neighbor's pool for a late night swim. As he was ready to dive off the diving board, an angel suddenly appeared to stop him. Turns out that the owner had just drained the pool. Stories like this are commonplace, but who could "prove" them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

But in another case, the angel told the guy to jump, and the pool was also drained. Guess who's story got in the book? The first one. Not the second.

And how do you know the angel told the guy to jump?

10-01-2014, 02:02 PM	#1
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 636	Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit Like many other conservative evangelical groups of today, the LCs adopts a cessationist view concerning the gifts of the Holy Spirit. However early on in the LC's history (before Witness Lee gained as much influence as he did perhaps) it seems like tongues, deliverance and healings were practiced here and there. My Grandma has many wild stories from her early start in the LCs of Taiwan in the 50s and 60s of healings and deliverances during her evangelism trips. My mother was also healed of a leg injury when she was about 7 or 8 by a brother in Taiwan with the gift of healing (who's healing ministry Witness Lee later put a stop to). I've attended a Charismatic church for a number of years now, and from direct experiences have come to accept a supernatural worldview as well as well as solid belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for today. Just last weekend I attended a men's retreat in my church. On Sunday morning, I had pretty bad nasal congestion and had trouble speaking and breathing which was unfortunate because I was assigned to lead devotion in the morning. After a quick prayer in my head to the Lord about this matter, one brother gets up and announces that he felt led to pray for healing for anyone with nasal congestion. I raised my hand and after the group prayed for me, my sinuses cleared immediately. I've never had my nasal congestion symptoms disappear so quickly and I was more than ready to serve in our morning devotion that would follow. I was happy and thankful, but not that surprised as I've experienced and seen these type of miracles occur over and over again in my church group and during our evangelism trips where we pray for healing to demonstrate the power of God to help others believe in God's love for them through Jesus. That's one of the more tamer stories and I have a lot more I can share later, but that's the most recent one. I just wanted to open up this thread to anyone who had other direct experiences with the Holy Spirit and has adopted a supernatural worldview after leaving the LCs. Acts 4:29-30 And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus. __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

10-01-2014, 06:40 PM	#2
Freedom Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,636	Re: Supernatural worldview and stories of power the Holy Spirit This is an interesting topic, because it seems like in the LC, they like to steer clear of gifts in general. Of course, there is one "gift" (prophecy) that they are obsessed with. Since I have been in the LC my whole life, I don't know how the LC views on gifts compares to non-charismatic churches. In general, I think this is a touchy subject that people like to steer clear of because of the misuse by people who purport to perform "supernatural" healing and miracles. What I do know is that God works in mysterious ways. It is undeniable that supernatural events can occur and do occur in all of our lives. Even though I am still in the LC, I never cease to be amazed in the ways that God works. It is hard to think of any specific examples, but I do know that I have had different dreams where I knew at some point afterwards that it was God speaking to me. In the LC, because of the devaluation of the gifts, I don't expect to have any extraordinary experiences. What is completely unbalanced about the LC is that they rarely talk about gifts, but all the sudden when it comes to prophecy, it's a whole different story. They even devote a whole meeting to it (prophesying meeting). The implication in the which WL made is that there is only one gift and everyone has the same gift, that being the gift of prophecy. Everyone is expected to "prophecy" in a meeting each week so that is a huge implication right there. They don't have a "healing" meeting or a "speaking in tongues" meeting (I'm not saying that they should) so it seem quite ironic that they have become so obsessed with a certain gift. Sadly to say, because of this imbalance, I don't think many in the LC including myself have any awareness of what gift they may have. I am aware of different ways I am viewed as "useful" to the LC, but does that really mean I have a certain gift? I think the end effect is that many LC members feel discouraged concerning their usefulness to God. Even though everyone is told the are "function" by prophesying each week, it is really only of benefit to those who actually have that gift. Sometimes I am pressured to prophecy and I know that I have nothing to say. So basically I make something up that serves no other purpose than to satisfy those who are pressuring me. Afterward when people say something like "I really enjoyed your sharing today", I think to myself and realize what a hypocrite I was and how hypocritical the LC is. How could anyone enjoy something I made up on the spot that I could care less about? In summary, I can definitely say that I believe in supernatural occurrences. I can think of several people in the LC who have share things with me now and then, however I think as an unspoken rule in the LC, we know to keep such things to ourselves.

10-02-2014, 09:27 AM	#5
zeek Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Florida Posts: 4,223	Re: Supernatural worldview and stories of power the Holy Spirit bearbear-- love ya man , but, let me be the first to say that your supernatural stuff just creeps me out. __________________ Ken Gemmer- Church in Detroit, Church in Fort Lauderdale, Church in Miami 1973-86

10-02-2014, 09:22 PM	#19
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 636	Re: Supernatural worldview and stories of power the Holy Spirit Maybe we can make all this interactive rather than being theoretical. I don't know if I have the gift of healing but I can try and I will rely on this promise: Mark 16:17-18 (NLT) These miraculous signs will accompany those who believe: They will cast out demons in my name, and they will speak in new languages. They will be able to handle snakes with safety, and if they drink anything poisonous, it won’t hurt them. They will be able to place their hands on the sick, and they will be healed.” Because of distance we won't be able to place hands on anyone however, Jesus healed people who were not in his physical presence and he promises that we will do greater works than him. John 14:12 (NLT) I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. If anyone has a health problem or any other kind of specific prayer request you can post it here and I and others who feel led to can pray for it. I'm leaving for a wedding tomorrow so I won't be around this weekend, but I will be available at least tonight. __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

10-03-2014, 09:05 AM	#22
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,797	Re: Supernatural worldview and stories of power the Holy Spirit So Harold, along with your other skills, you're now a New Testament scholar? So you know more than the dozens (hundreds?) of the most learned NT scholars WHO HAVE LEFT THIS SECTION INTACT IN ALMOST ALL OF THE MODERN TRANSLATIONS? Some have rightly made a footnote that this section does not appear in the earliest of manuscripts, HOWEVER, almost all agree that it still qualifies to be part of the accepted canon, and they do so for numerous reasons which are WAY too involved to get into on this forum. Bottom line - They left this section in, and they had their good reasons to do so. So bearbear, you go bro, you go! And you can rely on any verse or verses that are in most of the modern translations. You seem like the kind of fellow who does his homework anyway, so I probably am not posting anything you don't already know. Harold was right about the faith part though. So use the Word, use your faith, "ALL ARE YOURS" as the apostle Paul said! ** I just saw bearbear's last post. SEE, I told you this guy does his homework! __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11**

10-03-2014, 09:26 AM	#23
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Supernatural worldview and tales of power, part A Well I am always somewhat skeptical because I know of demons that will go around possessing you and then offer you relief. Like drug addiction, you get pulled in deeper thinking that you are better. "Then all my troubles went away"... just take a little puff on the magic weed, or pop the pill. But I am not an absolute skeptic. God is God, and can do what He wants. Certainly Jesus set the bar, and He set it high. Funny thing -- I come from a big family of alkies, and one of my cousins got sober in the Mormons, and another got sober in the Buddhists, and I got sober with Witness Lee. So we all got "healed", of a sort. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

10-03-2014, 09:42 AM	#25
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Supernatural worldview and tales of power, part A But Jesus clearly went around doing works of power. So if we simply wave it away as irrelevant, or past tense, or as merely symbolic or allegorical (physical healing as representative of psychological healing, or "demons" as representing scientific ailments) then we have a "revised text". Certainly WL interepreted away anything that didn't get lined up fully with his hermeneutic, and works of power was included. So WL's gospel was an "interpreted" version in which works of power were largely irrelevant, except for informational purposes. Dead letters, anyone? But I would like to discuss a more prosaic form, which is probably related. Two stories follow. First, when I was young I would listen to anything. Today I am more able to test the spirits. When people held themselves as something I would follow, naively. Today I realize that those who lift themselves up on this side of the Judgment Seat will be taken down. Those who try to be first today will not be first in the kingdom. Similarly, I can see "Christ" in people who are troubled and wretched. Jesus could see the future, and the past. He saw Nathaniel before Philip called him, while he was under the fig tree. He knew Judas would betray him. Similarly I can sometimes "see" either the past or the future, instead of just reacting to the apparent present. My second story comes from work. I was an alcoholic and totally blew my resume apart. I couldn't find even basic work. And this was after leaving the LRC, even. I was tormented by forces I couldn't comprehend, even sober. I couldn't fit into society. To make a long story short, I eventually got a revelation that I wasn't the only sickie out there, and got a job in human services. Helping the downtrodden, etc. So one day I was doing my menial work, and a guy comes by, and was talking about this really far-out research they were doing. I said, "I know that stuff." So he invited me to talk at a national conference. I just walked up there and this stuff started pouring out of me. Papers I read years back, suddenly got "resurrected" in front of this crowd of people from the top medical schools and research institutions. It was wild, but I was totally calm; I knew it was the Lord. Only God could have done that. Then I went back to my menial service job. But you can believe I never forgot that. God said, "I can do anything." The only thing that stops God is our concepts. Today I am much more open to God's speaking in the Word. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

10-03-2014, 01:17 PM	#29
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Supernatural worldview and tales of power, part B "And now we will come to revelations and visions of the Lord..." Paul to the Corinthians. The main thing for me was that eventually the Word became alive in me, and dwelt in me richly. God is speaking to us! This was in direct contradistinction to WL's telling us that the scriptural word only meant this or that. In the LRC, if WL couldn't see anything, then the word was dead to us his acolytes. No; now I began to apprehend that it was God Himself inspiring these words of hope and revelation and light. The word became alive to me, and opened a spiritual realm beyond my dreams. God's own dream was revealed to me in those words, a world that was so real and clear and true... Can you imagine if Peter, standing with the eleven, had said, "David's grave is with us to this day. Therefore these words are merely natural." (Acts 2:29-31) No, he said, "These words indicate Jesus the Christ." One day, like the author of Hebrews, I also saw the text and I also saw Jesus, made a little lower than the angels, and crowned with glory and honour (Heb 2:9). To quote the narrator in Robert Frost's poem, "And that has made all the difference." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Not_Taken Basically, three things: first I began to read scholarship. Second, it was scholarship of the patristics, those who'd met with the disciples (i.e. Papias, Irenaus, etc). So it was modern investigation of the first commentaries of the NT, which arguably was itself a commentary and explication that the OT indicated and revealed to fallen man the beloved of God's heart, Jesus Christ. Third, I then began to appropriate it as if it were real. It was "name it and claim it", to some degree. I began to declare the visions of the texts as if they were real, and they simply began to open for me. The world became new -- a whole new world unfolded. A dimension beyond space and time, a dimension of spirit. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

10-04-2014, 04:57 PM	#40
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	stories of power the Holy Spirit I know I've been banging this drum for a while, and also know that folks won't line up behind me. As I said, it can be lonely being a prophet. But one day I realized that the seven spirits before the throne actually only being the one Holy Spirit, sevenfold intensified by Lee's formula (admitted this formula is oft used. But here it's especially convenient: Lee's "the Lord is the Spirit" idea conveniently morphs into "the Lord Jesus Christ is the One Holy Spirit, sevenfold intesified to overcome the degradation of the seven Churches of history"). But I argue that the formula does not fit the text; it only fits the formula. If seven spirits are one spirit sevenfold, then is seven churches also one church sevenfold, or seven angels really one angel sevenfold? No, that's neither obvious nor convenient nor consistent. But the formula overcomes the presented seven spirits, even though they are repeatedly presented in the Revelation, simply because the formula must triumph. It triumphs over the text, and over consistency, and over common sense. The formula must triumph. Our "ministry" requires it. A couple of years ago, I was visiting a friend on the East Coast of the U.S. We were in a big Anglican church, full of well-dressed professionals. At the end, the priest, garbed in white and silver, with some kind of shimmery crown on his head, and holding some kind of gilded staff, raised his palm to the respectable crowd and said, "Now may the blessing of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit be with you all." A voice inside me said, "That guy wouldn't know the Holy Spirit if it slapped him up side of the head." And it probably does, occasionally. Now, I don't know the Holy Spirit either. I also get buffeted by forces I don't comprehend. But I no longer pretend that I do. And like the protagonist in the Robert Frost poem, I say, "And that has made all the difference." Peace and grace to all who read this. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

10-06-2014, 05:14 AM	#46
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit My working thesis is that the original discussions of what is now the canonical NT text, and its relations to its source the OT (the main thrust of the NT composition was that Jesus the Nazarene fufilled the OT prophecies of the coming Messiah) got relegated to the back burner, or worse, once the Orthodox church was established. In the understandable desire for uniformly recognized truth in the land, any potential gray areas got swept under the rug. Due to the ossification of the discussion and the orthodox hierarchy, a great schism erupted. Part of it, interestingly, was an inability to agree if the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father alone or from the Father and the Son (the so-called "filiolique controversy"). In other words, a hardening of view of the Trinity caused the church itself to rupture. Then, the Western church found itself doubly removed from the source discussions. Then, 500 years later, Calvin and Luther found themselves trebly removed. They had their bare text and their own inspiration (justification by faith, etc). But much of the light they saw was merely reaction to the errors they were trying to be rid of. They were not able to see the text for what it was, but what they needed it to tell them at that time, to maintain a valid salvation experience, and good order in the church. The Brethren and Little Flock and Lord's Recovery were no exception. The Bible meant whatever it needed to mean for us at that time. Looking back, we find areas where a lot of ink was spilled over one or two words in the text, while other whole sections of the very same text, even in the same passage and even the same verse or phrase, were simply ignored. Why? Because they weren't helpful to the emerging formula. The power of the Holy Spirit allows us to return to the text and look at stuff that WL & co didn't think were important. But they were imporant to the writers of the text, and the writer wanted his/her reader to see it. So the Holy Spirit allows us to do just that. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

10-06-2014, 07:28 AM	#49
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,631	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit Anyway, I've kind of overstated my case, I am sure. But I thought the point worth bringing to the discussion. When Bearbear talks about his friend getting healed, and I talk about angels ascending and descending, we may be discussiong complementary things. And I want us to realize that with me just writing, it is empty rhetoric. And with Bearbear just talking about healing, we may miss what is going on. The Roman Centurion knew what was going on, and Jesus responded, didn't he? So let's also let the text invigorate our co-operation with the works of power of the Holy Spirit. Really, that is all I am trying to say. I am just another doofus on the Jesus bus. We all have something to say and I just wanted to share my little portion. Thanks for bearing with me. Peace to all. __________________ "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'

10-19-2014, 09:41 PM	#52
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 636	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit I've never seen angels before. However an elder at my church has a gifting that allows him to see angels sometimes and so does one of his daughters. They sometimes see the same angels in their house and elsewhere. Well here's a story of angels my mother told me. My grandma was a single mother who raised 8 kids in Taiwan (3 of them were hers, 5 others were adopted after my Grandma' sister in law committed suicide). After she became a Christian, she lived by faith and had many miraculous experiences of prayers answered. In many instances stuff like this would happen: the family would have no food or money and my Grandma would simply pray and an hour later someone would show up at the door with groceries. Despite being poor, they never had a lack because of my Grandmother's faith. During some time there was a buddhist/taoist temple (Taiwanese religion is syncretic of many eastern religions) that was constructed next to the house. My grandmother was afraid there would be a demonic influence near my house as incense and smoke arose from the temple everyday. So she prayed that God would protect the family and the house. One day my mom was with her little sister in the bedroom lying on the bed. As my aunt looked out the window, she saw a chorus of angels singing next to the house! They took that to mean that God had answered their mom's prayer. They also understood it as a sign that God cared for and loved them. Sounds crazy but my Grandma and my parents aren't Charismatic at all. Having later passed through many decades in the LC they shy away from anything supernatural. According to my Grandma, these kind of things happened regularly in the LCs before Witness Lee's influence grew in Taiwan. Yet they can't deny what they experienced and saw. __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

10-22-2014, 09:56 AM	#61
Justin Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit Maybe we need to pray for a Wind of Renewal of the H. Spirit to come upon the Local Churches again for the LORD's Glory

10-22-2014, 10:03 AM	#62
Justin Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit I myself have had a Supernatural encounter with the Lord before becoming a member of the Local Church , im not going to say what Locality cause of certain reasons.

10-24-2014, 11:59 AM	#66
Justin Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit They need the Holy Spirits Move on them for more passion for Him & the Lost

10-24-2014, 12:01 PM	#67
Justin Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit Yes im still very close to the church that i recieved Christ in & the empowerment of the Holy Spirit

10-24-2014, 03:52 PM	#69
Lisbon Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 117	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit One thing I learned in the LC that I still believe, the Lord doesn't pour new wine in old wine skins. Any one who does not see that the LC is just old wine skins hasn't been around very long. Besides history of 2000 years also says the same thing. I never heard of a Christian sect that repented. We are always right in our own eyes and that's that. I doubt the LC would admit they are a sect. A lot of darkness there. Some think they still get help but I'm sorry I think they are deceived. I was personally so discouraged over a period of over ten years that none of the BBs would not have the sense that the group badly needed repentance. Remember, "all those in Asia have deserted me" and to the churches in Rev. "except you repent". They were only 20 to 40 years old at the most with real apostles at the helm. What we've had at the helm I won't say and we are over 60 years. The place is old. Lisbon

10-29-2014, 01:09 PM	#73
Justin Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 15	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit Maybe thats what it takes the power of prayer of 2 brother's in Christ for Healing will start a new Renewal of the H.Spirit in the Local Churches

11-17-2014, 10:06 AM	#85
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit bearbear & Dave, I have a friend of long standing. In fact he met the Lord when he came to see me in Santa Cruz. He was in the LC for a short while but left, after I went to the church in Detroit. As a result I lost track of him for a long time. When I finally found him he was a Pentecostal preacher. He told me stories of healing people. A few years ago he went to the doctor with a friend. While there the doctor checked his blood sugar count. He was alarmed. Ron's blood sugar reading was over 300, when between 100 and 150 is the healthy range. The doc told him that his high blood sugar was damaging his organs, and that he had to do something about it. Well after asking the doctor about diabetes he told him that that is all he needed to know, and that God would heal him thru prayer. A few years go by and suddenly he's having problems with his eyesight. At one point his sight went black. Then he had to see a doctor. Lo and behold his blood sugar was still over 300. His prayers didn't work, and God did not heal him of diabetes. As a result he had to go on insulin. Now if he had addressed his problem medically, and with diet, instead of prayer, back when he first discovered his disease, he could have avoided his type 2 diabetes from becoming advanced to the point of needing insulin. By believing in prayer he really harmed his health, and almost lost hie eyesight. So I wouldn't put a whole lot of faith in supernatural healing. Doing so could kill you, or seriously harm your health. I think we've all heard these sort of stories of believers in Christian Science, and others of faith healing ilk, who refuse medical help in hopes of supernatural healing's. And how courts have gotten involved when children are at risk. We look at them like they are crazy ... and should. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

11-17-2014, 12:40 PM	#88
bearbear Member Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 636	Re: Supernatural Worldview/stories of power the Holy Spirit There are quite a number of testimonies of believers in my church who became Christians after experiencing the Holy Spirit's power, and when I think about it, some of the people who seem to love Jesus the most had experience with signs and wonders as a starting point for their faith. One of them inherited a autoimmune disorder of the kidneys that was incurable. He wasn't a believer then at the age of 17, but out of desperation, he sought his Aunt (who was a Christian) who gave him the advice of giving praise to the Lord Jesus for 20 minutes every morning. He used to sit in the front row of our youth meetings looking dead and extremely depressed, but he would force himself to praise the Lord. After a few months he had a miraculous recovery and the doctors at nearby Stanford hospital documented it as a medical miracle. He was so transformed by what happened that he went on from there to become a man of prayer and then a leading youth minister, his personality also completely changed from being characterized by depression to one of joy and happiness. His parents were so surprised by his recovery that they also received Jesus and got baptized in the church. Here's his testimony on youtube with English subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd__A2BY__k __________________ 1 John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.