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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart.

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Old 07-10-2018, 11:41 PM   #1
Trapped
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Default Depression and the LCs

One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did.

I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC, but was also frustrated that I really had nothing of substance to offer her besides just lending an ear. I really didn’t know how to respond.

A few days after that I relayed the story to an elder and his response was, “I agree, someone in her state of mind should not go to the meetings.”

While that was not the response I expected, it also didn’t quite land right with me but I couldn’t figure out why. I told the story and elder’s response to another saint and they agreed with the elder, likening the speaking in the meetings to rich food, and that when someone is sick they cannot handle rich food.

Does anyone have any input/advice/response to this? While I understand the concept of a sick person not handling rich food, I realized what hit me wrong was that we are all “sick people”. The Lord came exactly for the sick, depressed, downtrodden, crushed, lowly. These ones needing help shouldn’t come to the church? Only mentally and emotionally fully healthy people are suited to hear what is spoken? I had the thought that maybe what is being spoken in the meetings, or the way it is being conveyed, could be the problem. On the other hand, maybe there is some truth to it and if we are not in the right condition to hear certain things, it is better we don’t hear them? I don’t know. I just hated not being able to have any answer for her and would appreciate any thoughts anyone has.

I also realize that it would be possible for someone in a non-LC church also struggling with depression to pick up this same thought and be turned off by it, so I'm not 100% sure it's an LC-specific thing, although others can probably speak more to that than I can.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:37 AM   #2
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Default Re: Depression and the LCs

Trapped,

Many years ago, my father had died in the previous few weeks, and "the elder" summoned me to Sunday lunch to inquire as to why I had not been to meetings in "awhile". My response, in the following hour, was explaining in tears and a whisper which I could hardly speak. I had lost my father and was starting to realize that I would never see him again in this life. My heart was breaking and attending church meetings like a good little girl were the farthest thing from my mind. When I finished my truly pitiful discourse to him, he said nothing. I asked "do you have anything to say to me?" He said "no not really."

What could a concerned Christian say? "Can we pray for you now?" "My wife and I love you and will pray for you." "Is there anything you need?" "How can we help you through this time?" What's wrong with this picture?

This elder exposed his own spiritual bankruptcy. When you turn to "the church" and receive nothing...no spiritual guidance...not even a prayer or expression of love for you, is this really "the church"? These men are supposed to shepherd the flock. Instead, they have nothing. Rich food? If it was rich food spoken by the Holy Spirit, it would bring healing and nourishment. Even comfort.

After this experience, I may have attended one more meeting, but essentially, I never went back.

My advice to you and your friends is to walk away. Express your love and concern for each other. Seek counseling from a professional. I turned to my family for comfort and we all went through losing our father together.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are these men His disciples if they can't even express their love to the brothers who are hurting? Notice, this is not a suggestion or a good idea. It's a COMMANDMENT!

Again, find a good Christian counselor and hold on to one another. Thank Him that you see something these "elders" don't! Maybe the Lord is showing you something!

Nell
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:35 AM   #3
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I told the story and elder’s response to another saint and they agreed with the elder, likening the speaking in the meetings to rich food, and that when someone is sick they cannot handle rich food.
May be it is the other way round. It could be the lack of certain nutrition in the food that leads to sickness.

I think the nutrition is love which is so seldomly mentioned in the LSM messages. The "church life" promoted is "God's economy" oriented instead of love oriented. "Christ as our person" neglects all the good in our transformed person as if God loves only Himself.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

If God already loves us while we were still sinners, would He loves us any less as His children?
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
I told the story and elder’s response to another saint and they agreed with the elder, likening the speaking in the meetings to rich food, and that when someone is sick they cannot handle rich food.

Does anyone have any input/advice/response to this? While I understand the concept of a sick person not handling rich food, I realized what hit me wrong was that we are all “sick people”.
There will always be folks in the church who are more needy, as Paul says "less comely," and will continually need others to support them, encourage and love them, provide a shoulder, and a hand to hold. God has placed these ones in the body as it pleases Him, in order for His children to be cared for. Love, kindness, and joy are the best medicine.

Back in the mid-80's the LCM became inundated with a legalistic, military spirit (Gideon's army) which was extremely intolerant. Many of those whom I would consider real shepherds and brotherly/sisterly were discarded for the more zealous, military types which rose in prominence both at LSM and in the LC's. Philip Lee, placed in charge of the LC western hemisphere, placed no value on love, rather "what have you done for me lately, and what can you do for me right now."

Today in the LCM there is almost no value placed on Christian counseling, providing for ones gifted in this way to grow and prosper in the church. Anything remotely like this is considered "chicken soup for the soul," or that evil "self-help" which suffers condemnation with the rest of Christianity. Why? Simple. It points to the utter failure of this ministry to provide real food and guidance for spiritual edification. Hence, they would rather lose people by the droves than to have any one of them find help from Joyce Meyer, James Dobson, or thousands others. What they now call "rich food" is just dead esoteric doctrines, frozen and rewarmed, again and again, stored in clammy cold storage, void of anointing, and repackaged as fresh, organic, healthy foodstuffs. Nobody wants this stuff. Not even their own people.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:58 AM   #5
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Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord. The Lord is always joyful and is a funny guy too.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:15 AM   #6
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Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord. The Lord is always joyful and is a funny guy too.
Then why was Paul so depressed, weighed down by so many cares, despaired even of life, and Watchman Nee so depressed?
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:38 AM   #7
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Mr E, do you know what's another sign of not abiding in the Lord? It is not having love, understanding and compassion for your neighbor. If you would put down "The Ministry" long enough to read the story of the Good Samaritan, you would see that much of what you post on this forum is diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel, which is the absolute expression of the life, heart and character of the Lord Jesus...you know...that guy that you claim to be abiding in.

The Gospel is the very core, the very foundation of our Christian life. Anyone who tells you that there is a "higher gospel" is greatly deceived, and whoever teaches such a thing is a deceiver. I'm quite certain that the priest and the Levite who ignored that man laying in the street, and "past by on the other side", thought that they were abiding in the Lord and living out their "higher gospel".

I would ask you...no, I would beg you, to consider what Nell and the others have posted right here. Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones? Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead? Maybe you think "they deserve it" for abandoning "the Ministry", or not speaking the praises of Witness Lee.

Just sayin...

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Old 07-11-2018, 11:09 AM   #8
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Yeah, we are nothing and Christ is everything and He can fill us with peace, love and joy. And our life is meaningful if we can be truly filled with His divine life and nature. We will feel worthy and full of confidence like Paul who said "I can encounter everything through Him who fortified me. (Philippians 4:13)"

But in the Local churches under LSM direction, we are nothing and Witness Lee and Blended Brothers' glory, pride and success are everything. That's why we can feel very weird spirits among them and it can't help us grow up properly and biblically.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:01 PM   #9
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I would ask you...no, I would beg you, to consider what Nell and the others have posted right here. Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones? Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead?
Note that there is nothing in my post to suggest or insinuate that "I don't have a heart for wounded ones", as I did not disagree with anything already written. I offered the biblical solution which is 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful, and I was the first poster to do so (which is remarkable, as no other poster so far has offered a solution to the problem of depression, this is an area in which local church Christians are best equipped to deal with as they know the value of abiding in the Lord, constantly, 24/7). The cycle of depression is best broken by joy, and care and concern over the "problem" usually just makes it worse, like rubbing salt into a wound.

You could have just agreed with me, and quoted 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful, which my post was basically a paraphrase of. But you didn't, either because you can't, or you think it is better to use what I said to attack me and the ministry. You had to turn what I said into something about me , claiming "I don't have a heart for wounded ones". When you accuse or insinuate that others are Pharisees without a heart, you are being just like them. But that is a relative argument, "you are this and I am not but if you say I am not then you in fact are!". I prefer absolutes, and the absolute solution to depression in the bible is to be joyful.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:03 PM   #10
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Then why was Paul so depressed, weighed down by so many cares, despaired even of life, and Watchman Nee so depressed?
Yeah Paul, he was so depressed he wanted to die to be with the Lord, he was a suicidal. It's amazing how you read something into the Bible when you want to prove a point. So his solution? 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful.

Paul went through so much he should have been depressed, but he was joyful in the Lord. Depression in a first world country is a modern disease of affluence. I haven't met anyone yet with depression who didn't have food, clothes and a roof over their head. And I seen people in 3rd world countries with more joy. In that case I would tell them to snap out of it, stop feeling sorry for themselves and do something meaningful, stop feeding the depression demon. If you go to a pscyhologist they might treat you with CBT (a therapist helps you identify negative or false thoughts and replace those thoughts with healthier, more realistic ones) which is basically biblical teaching marketed in a secular way.

For me whatever I needed I just call on the Lord a few times myself or with the brothers and my problems go away and God answers. It works for me and others you tell me why it doesn't work for everyone?
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:44 PM   #11
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Note that there is nothing in my post to suggest or insinuate that "I don't have a heart for wounded ones", as I did not disagree with anything already written. I offered the biblical solution which is 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful, and I was the first poster to do so (which is remarkable, as no other poster so far has offered a solution to the problem of depression, this is an area in which local church Christians are best equipped to deal with as they know the value of abiding in the Lord, constantly, 24/7).
I have to disagree here. God spoke many things into me through His word as I searched for answers to what happened to my family, at the hands of the local church Christians. He told me He would never reject me, that He desired love and not sacrifice, that His body is one, that I would never be separated from His love, that He loved me unto His own death, that He (the builder)is greater than the building(the church), and so many more.......when I hold up the picture His word gives me and compare it side by side to the local church Christians practices, I can see no resemblance. I was told by a local churcher that she was obeying the Spirit to shun us. But then the Lord told me He would never reject me. So that is how I know it is not the Holy Spirit leading them in their meanness, but a counterfeit spirit. So many words the Lord has spoken that contradict their LC practices. He loves us and has a ministry of peace and reconciliation. He wants us to walk in that same peace with each other. But that sort of living is impossible with local churchers who refuse to speak with, or fellowship with their "shunee". Jesus chose to eat with the lowest....tax collector, prostitutes, you know, He loves Trump and would sit down with him, and share the Fathers love with him. Jesus put loving others above all commandments except to love God first, with everything you have, and best. But just because you sign the email or text all caps "LOVE YOU" while you let them know you will not receive them, nor answer the phone to them, nor speak to them in person, nor have anything further to do with them.....does not mean you are operating in love, LCers. It is another spirit!!! A lying, false spirit of Satan! I am so thankful the Lord shined on the deception, led us out, and His name will be glorified above the name of Witness Lee, The Ministry, LSM, the Local Church, all of it. You will see someday. The day is appointed, in fact. Praise Jesus alone.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:46 PM   #12
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So I've basically been attacked by the forum moderator for sharing what is possibly some of the best advice and help about depression ever. By that I mean it's straight from the bible and experience. It can also be found in the teachings of Christianity and in psychology.

What I wrote is basically what John Piper says in "sorrowful yet always-rejoicing":

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages...ways-rejoicing

“What the world needs from the church is our indomitable joy in Jesus in the midst of suffering and sorrow”

Only Christians know how to have joy in the midst of suffering - by abiding in the Lord.

Firstly, sorrow and depression, two completely different things.

I think depression is not real. It's not a real illness. It's a culture syndrome. This is a quote by a psychologist:

"In western anglophone societies we have developed an ethic of happiness, in which aberrations … are assumed to indicate illness,"

Here are supporting articles:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635547/

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lly-determined

It's real because we think it's real and other's in our culture tell us it's real.
In third world countries, everyone is suffering, yet happy, why? Because they aren't going around complaining how depressed they are.

It's in the mind, literally. Our minds can be changed. Get in the Word, pray-read, call on the Lord, our mind can change, and we can be joyful.

Get our mind off ourself. Count our blessings. Do we have food, clothing, shelter, are we content?

Don't fight it. You fight it, it wins, because it's not real. It's like fighting an imaginary opponent, you never win because your imagined opponent is always stronger. Depression is not a fight or struggle. Depression is because we aren't abiding in the Lord. Depression is not something we should fight or struggle with, we overcome it by abiding in the Lord.

There is only two conditions of a Christian - in the Lord and not in the Lord. There is no such thing as a Christian abiding in the Lord who is also in depression.

Don't struggle to fight an imaginary opponent who always wins. Struggle to abide in the Lord, and that imaginary opponent will disappear.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:50 PM   #13
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Yeah Paul, he was so depressed he wanted to die to be with the Lord, he was a suicidal. It's amazing how you read something into the Bible when you want to prove a point. So his solution? 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful.
I read this E, how else shall I read it?

"For we do not want you to be ignorant brothers, as to our affliction having happened in Asia, that we were weighed against excessively, beyond our power, so as for us to despair even to live." II Cor 1.8

Sorry E, but you seem to have a shallow, "book-knowledge-only" understanding of the Christian life. Reading only "the ministry" will do that to you.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:58 PM   #14
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So I've basically been attacked by the forum moderator for sharing what is possibly some of the best advice and help about depression ever.
Rather, you were admonished and entreated by the moderator.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:00 PM   #15
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One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did...
Nothing can separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus, neither height nor depth.....He knows what we go through, and His love is steadfast! He loves us joyful, and broken....His love will never leave us, no matter the depths. Lean on the truth, ask Him to lift you out, wait on Him, trust in His care. His word says it matters to Him concerning you....I can testify to His faithfulness!
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:01 PM   #16
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In the OP, first paragraph, someone stopped going to meetings because they heard " “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful etc".

Why would a real Christian find that depressing? You can hear that message in almost any evangelical church on a Sunday, I'm guessing.

Not everyone sees the positive in the gospel. Some see the cross as cruelty and want nothing to do with a God who tortures His Son. Some may find the gospel depressing. A believer wouldn't.

I'm sorry if I don't see a problem with the gospel being the cause of depression. I am sorry that the moderator does not want you to know that abiding in the Lord is the best solution, as I was "admonished and entreated" for saying so.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:01 PM   #17
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Rather, you were admonished and entreated by the moderator.
For saying nothing except what the Bible says (and John Piper) - rejoice always.

Please quote me which would indicate that "I don't have a heart for wounded ones". If you cannot produce such a quote then an apology and a retraction would be the appropriate Christian thing to do.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:09 PM   #18
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Sorry E, but you seem to have a shallow, "book-knowledge-only" understanding of the Christian life. Reading only "the ministry" will do that to you.

That sounds like another Pharisee-like judgement of my heart, Ohio! You could have agreed with the biblical solution to depression, as well, but didn't, because you'd rather attack, gnashing of teeth too I bet.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:18 PM   #19
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In any case someone missed the action:

Someone posted this:

Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord.

The moderator replied with a highly presumptuous personal attack:

Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones?

Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead?


They wrote:

"you would see that much of what you post on this forum is diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel"

Ok, so apparently "The cure is to abide in the Lord" is "diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel".

Here's your chance Mr Moderator to prove it. Quote me where I ever said or implied we should "turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead". You will soon find that this portrayal of me is merely an extension of your imagination and beliefs about the local churches.
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Old 07-11-2018, 05:45 PM   #20
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One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did.
OK so the gospel made someone feel worse so she stopped coming. Not the gospel's fault, sorry! "disillusioned and bitter" sounds like a problem. "Christ is everything" shouldn't make anyone feel bad. It is concerning however if no one from the local church is visiting her to help her.


Quote:
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Does anyone have any input/advice/response to this? While I understand the concept of a sick person not handling rich food, I realized what hit me wrong was that we are all “sick people”. The Lord came exactly for the sick, depressed, downtrodden, crushed, lowly. These ones needing help shouldn’t come to the church? Only mentally and emotionally fully healthy people are suited to hear what is spoken?
But you said before coming to meetings made her feel worse. Why should the elder encourage her to come then?

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I had the thought that maybe what is being spoken in the meetings, or the way it is being conveyed, could be the problem. On the other hand, maybe there is some truth to it and if we are not in the right condition to hear certain things, it is better we don’t hear them? I don’t know. I just hated not being able to have any answer for her and would appreciate any thoughts anyone has.
Why does it always have to be the meeting that's the problem? If she goes to a doctor they are probably going to give her medicine for her problem. Sorry but people have to stop blaming other people for their problems.

No answer? Why not tell her what the bible says - rejoice in the Lord always. Get over the bitterness - forgive, or whatever you have to do, and move on.

In my experience, if local church people say anything in the meeting, it's with a smile, rejoicing, hallelujahs and the occasional fist pump. Sincere or not, I don't know, but it shouldn't make anyone depressed!
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:15 PM   #21
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I have to disagree here. God spoke many things into me through His word as I searched for answers to what happened to my family, at the hands of the local church Christians. He told me He would never reject me, that He desired love and not sacrifice, that His body is one, that I would never be separated from His love, that He loved me unto His own death, that He (the builder)is greater than the building(the church), and so many more.......when I hold up the picture His word gives me and compare it side by side to the local church Christians practices, I can see no resemblance. I was told by a local churcher that she was obeying the Spirit to shun us. But then the Lord told me He would never reject me. So that is how I know it is not the Holy Spirit leading them in their meanness, but a counterfeit spirit. So many words the Lord has spoken that contradict their LC practices. He loves us and has a ministry of peace and reconciliation. He wants us to walk in that same peace with each other. But that sort of living is impossible with local churchers who refuse to speak with, or fellowship with their "shunee". Jesus chose to eat with the lowest....tax collector, prostitutes, you know, He loves Trump and would sit down with him, and share the Fathers love with him. Jesus put loving others above all commandments except to love God first, with everything you have, and best. But just because you sign the email or text all caps "LOVE YOU" while you let them know you will not receive them, nor answer the phone to them, nor speak to them in person, nor have anything further to do with them.....does not mean you are operating in love, LCers. It is another spirit!!! A lying, false spirit of Satan! I am so thankful the Lord shined on the deception, led us out, and His name will be glorified above the name of Witness Lee, The Ministry, LSM, the Local Church, all of it. You will see someday. The day is appointed, in fact. Praise Jesus alone.

Satan in the church? You bet! There are some very lovely and loving people in the recovery and also some very cold people. The difference between the two may be a spirit as in your case, or some other reason. If they shun you, what can you do, but move on.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:16 PM   #22
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I'm sorry if I don't see a problem with the gospel being the cause of depression. I am sorry that the moderator does not want you to know that abiding in the Lord is the best solution, as I was "admonished and entreated" for saying so.
Evan, John 15:10 if you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Fathers commandments, and abide in His love.......:12 this is My commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

Evan, there can be no abiding in Him, if the love of God is neglected.....where is the love of the brethren in the LC? For your brethren outside the LC, it is refused to them....therefore no abiding in the Lord....
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:18 PM   #23
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Evangelical, if I was depressed I think the cure would probably be reading your responses in this thread as you have just made me laugh and laugh....

I would elaborate but I've gotta run to the nearest hospital and tell all the struggling new mothers in the maternity wards that Dr. Evangelical, M.D. says their postpartum depression is simply from their not abiding in the Lord.



But I also hope and pray that no one makes the mistake of coming to you with actual serious problems of this nature. Your responses, even though they are cloaked in Biblical language, are actually quite dangerous and irresponsible.

I had forgotten him until just now but there was a brother in his twenties many years ago who we all in the church could tell was desperately reaching and grasping for the Lord. He was in all the meetings and served in the church and would sometimes yell out in the meeting in his desperate attempt for the Lord to break through, not caring what anyone thought of his open suffering. If anyone was depressed, it was him. And if anyone was trying to abide in the Lord, it was him. He killed himself a few years later because the depression got too much.

I'll thank you not to purport that a good friend of mine that you have never met is not "a real Christian" or [not] "a believer" simply because she is wrestling with something you very clearly do not understand. This kind of thought to someone who is already struggling yet grasping for the Lord can easily have, and has had, disastrous results.

Additionally, it is not true that the depression rate is lower in third world countries, it is just that there is less available data concerning depression in those areas. Most studies done in third world areas only include the rates of reported clinical depression, not rates of actual depression. If people in third world countries are dealing with physical threats to their life, they are not going to go around reporting or seeking treatment for depression until the threats to their life have abated. It does NOT mean that they do not have depression. Sheesh.
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:39 PM   #24
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I think most of that about post natal depression is nonsense (i.e. not so relevant, the point regarding any medical condition is well understood) and you know why? Because you were concerned that the elder did not want her to come to meetings. If that is your primary concern, and if you know people have killed themselves despite coming to meetings, why would you take issue with what the elder said? Your point is that people who need help should be encouraged to come to meetings, right? But you're contradicting yourself because you gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite coming to meetings. I don't really know what it is that you expect from the meetings.

By all means, get help wherever, if a person is suicidal, gee, what are you expecting a meeting to cure it? Three possible causes : body, soul, spirit. The Bible deals with at least two of those, and even the body too if we see that the Spirit quickens the mortal flesh.

So, why don't you just go ahead and say what your post is saying:

"Abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not always a cure for depression"

So depression is stronger than Jesus, and the Lord is not our comforter, it would seem. You didn't even agree that it is a possible cure.

I don't think there is a thing as wrestling with depression. I think they are wrestling with doubt, and doubt is not a real thing either. Doubt is a lack of faith, and lack of faith is because.. we are not abiding in the Lord.

I mean, the Lord's presence kept people strong through martyrdom and many other things, but a first world problem "feeling low", and the Lord is powerless. Come on, are you kidding?
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Old 07-11-2018, 06:59 PM   #25
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Evan, John 15:10 if you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Fathers commandments, and abide in His love.......:12 this is My commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.
Evan, there can be no abiding in Him, if the love of God is neglected.....where is the love of the brethren in the LC? For your brethren outside the LC, it is refused to them....therefore no abiding in the Lord....
Visiting people in homes is not love? Gospel outreach is not love? Invitations to family feasts is not love? Love was extended to me by local church people while I was still in the denominations. Thus, your point is disproven.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:00 PM   #26
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One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches....
Brother, James 5:14 is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If the elders in the church are not willing to pray for the sick.....it is an assembly without the love of God....a true sign of error. Time to seek another assembly, one without the red flags the LC is flying.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:09 PM   #27
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Visiting people in homes is not love? Gospel outreach is not love? Love was extended to me by local church people while I was still in the denominations.
Evan, I tell you this in love....it is falsified love and falsified fellowship when it will be withdrawn when the "proper ground" requirement of the LC is not met. The proper ground doctrine is not scriptural, and not held by God as a crucial faith item. It is nowhere to be found, without merit, as doctrine. It is bad doctrine. He doesn't care where we meet, in fact this doctrine makes God a liar....which He cannot be. Why did He teach us 《whereever 2 or 3 gather in My name, there I am》 if He cared about city boundaries and local ground? How can I be held to this doctrine when there is no LC in my actual locality? The LC is 30 miles from my city. He desires to be worshipped in spirit and in truth....not within the bounds of the LC ground doctrine!
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:09 PM   #28
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If the elders in the church are not willing to pray for the sick.....it is an assembly without the love of God....a true sign of error. Time to seek another assembly, one without the red flags the LC is flying.
Why didn't she call the elders then? If she did, and they didn't pray, that's wrong! If I was the elder someone said "your meetings are making me sick", I wouldn't know how to pray.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:10 PM   #29
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Evan, I tell you this in love....it is falsified love and falsified fellowship when it will be withdrawn when the "proper ground" requirement of the LC is not met. The proper ground doctrine is not scriptural, and not held by God as a crucial faith item. It is nowhere to be found, without merit, as doctrine. It is bad doctrine. He doesn't care where we meet, in fact this doctrine makes God a liar....which He cannot be. Why did He teach us 《whereever 2 or 3 gather in My name, there I am》 if He cared about city boundaries and local ground? How can I be held to this doctrine when there is no LC in my actual locality? The LC is 30 miles from my city. He desires to be worshipped in spirit and in truth....not within the bounds of the LC ground doctrine!
You make a lot of sense. Maybe it is false! Watchman Nee was wrong then! Better tell that to Trapped because they were quoting Nee in the other thread about Scottsdale and Sons to Glory's church is even following this model but even better because it doesn't have Lee in it! What is "it"? I don't think there's any doctrine to be held to. It's all about meeting with all the fellow believers in the city. You're in the city, you're not part of it! If we make it a doctrine, we miss the point!
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:34 PM   #30
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First of all you keep editing and editing and changing all your posts which makes it really difficult to respond to whatever your final word is........

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I think most of that about post natal depression is nonsense (i.e. not so relevant, the point regarding any medical condition is well understood)
Regarding postpartum depression, neither the affliction itself nor my point concerning it is nonsense. Your are dismissing wrestling with depression as not a real thing; therefore, postpartum depression (depression that occurs within a specific time frame after giving birth) would also not be a real thing. An entire community of medical doctors, including all the genuine believers in that community, as well as new mothers are laughing you out of the show right now.

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Because you were concerned that the elder did not want her to come to meetings. If that is your primary concern, and if you know people have killed themselves despite coming to meetings, why would you take issue with what the elder said?
I was not concerned that the elder did not want her to come to meetings. I was concerned what the best response for someone struggling as she was would be, whether it really is "don't come to the meetings" or if others have other feeling or input. I was concerned for the PERSON, not the meetings. You should try that sometime.

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Your point is that people who need help should be encouraged to come to meetings, right? But you're contradicting yourself because you gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite coming to meetings. I don't really know what it is that you expect from the meetings.
Evangelical. Brother. Surely you are not this obtuse. Do you write for The Onion? You should.

I gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite DOING EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO REMAIN, ABIDE, AND REJOICE IN THE LORD. I only mentioned that he was in the meetings and serving so that you would have no ground to claim he wasn't a "real believer".

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By all means, get help wherever, if a person is suicidal, gee, what are you expecting a meeting to cure it? Three possible causes : body, soul, spirit. The Bible deals with at least two of those, and even the body too if we see that the Spirit quickens the mortal flesh.
Too nonsensical to even address.

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So, why don't you just go ahead and say what your post is saying:

"Abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not always a cure for depression"

So depression is stronger than Jesus, and the Lord is not our comforter, it would seem. You didn't even agree that it is a possible cure.

I don't think there is a thing as wrestling with depression. I think they are wrestling with doubt, and doubt is not a real thing either. Doubt is a lack of faith, and lack of faith is because.. we are not abiding in the Lord.

I mean, the Lord's presence kept people strong through martyrdom and many other things, but a first world problem "feeling low", and the Lord is powerless. Come on, are you kidding?
If I did not have other things going on in my life I would have taken a couple extra minutes to add a sentence to my post stating as such. It registered with me but I had other pressing matters. My bad, because now I need to take those few minutes to say it:

"No one is saying that abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not a cure for depression, or saying that the Lord is powerless. Note that you said a cure. For some, including yourself it seems, that alone can be sufficient. However, as another elder has said to me before, humans are complicated beings. Complicated. Why do we need shepherds, nursing mothers, consoling and exhorting fathers in the church? Because a slap upside the head accompanied by a, "Your problem is that you are not abiding in the Lord" neglects that the spirit at the heart of your flippant "just touch your spirit, are you even a real Christian?" is wrapped up in the wounded hearts of suffering people."

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I imagine this is what Ohio and UntoHim's remarks are related to. The spirit behind your flippant, dismissive posts (again, which are full of Biblical language) neglects to recognize that actual flesh and blood people often need more care, concern, and tenderness than "psh, you are the problem, just touch your spirit".

Again, Evangelical, I would caution you, if anyone comes to you with problems of this nature, be in fear and trembling before the Lord concerning how you respond to them.
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Old 07-11-2018, 07:56 PM   #31
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I would add that if a person abides in the Lord, they can get His care, concern and tenderness, as well as joy. The Lord is a real person who can offer everything you imply the local churches did not provide (care, concern, tenderness etc).

I'm still puzzled by what you wrote "I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC". They only said that we are undeserving sinners and Christ is everything. We are nothing and worthless apart from Christ, is a very normal Christian thing to say. It is a comfort that the Lord only sees Christ, and not us.
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Old 07-11-2018, 08:44 PM   #32
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First of all you keep editing and editing and changing all your posts which makes it really difficult to respond to whatever your final word is........
That's right, once E edited after I responded to his post. Made my post stating something that was NOT in his post (he edited that off after I responded to that post).

This is a respond to Trapped's post.
-
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:00 PM   #33
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I know you all mean well, but because of posts against local church elders and subsequent ones, I saw the whole thread has degenerated into a general attack against local church elders and the good work many of them do and the local churches.

As I see it there are 5 entities involved:

The person with depression
her friend (Trapped)
the elders
the local churches in general
Jesus

The important thing I believe is that the person with depression goes to Jesus. Christian comfort to others should be to that end and not an end in itself. Jesus is the real comforter.

Most of your posts have been about the elders and the local churches. They did this, they didn't do that. Well stop blaming the elders and local churches for your problems? I could write pages about how I've been offended in churches, anyone could. The bible talks about not giving but also not taking offense. Roots of bitterness can lead to other things, by the Lord's grace we seek help from Him alone when we are offended.

Prov 19:11 Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Not only have you insinuated that the local churches and the meetings are the cause of depression, you've argued against Jesus being the solution. Just remember whose side you are on.

As it says in Lev 19:18, bearing grudges against others is not loving your neighbor as yourself.

Once everyone has calmed down and not blaming each other, everyone needs to do much more in helping hurting people, there is no doubt about that. Home visits, whatever is needed, where they are at, not expecting them to turn up to a meeting and listen to the latest high peak truth.
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:54 PM   #34
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Come on folks,

We all recognize that in this forum the problem is not what Brother Evangelical says but what he represents.

People get depressed for many reasons. People, and elders are people too, don’t always say the right thing or react the way we think they should to depression. At some point in our life we will likely have to deal with it in others or in ourselves. I know I have. For me, the Lord always brought me through and out of some dark valleys. As Evangelical rightly said our best hope is in the Lord. Had a forum favorite said it he or she would be heralded as a genius, a person with clarity of thought having escaped the fog of the local churches. Since it was Evangelical, well let’s rent our clothes and throw dust in the air.....



Really, sometimes I fear some here might even deny their faith out of spite just to disagree with something Evangelical says.

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Old 07-11-2018, 10:16 PM   #35
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I would add that if a person abides in the Lord, they can get His care, concern and tenderness, as well as joy. The Lord is a real person who can offer everything you imply the local churches did not provide (care, concern, tenderness etc).
I'm still puzzled by what you wrote "I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC". They only said that we are undeserving sinners and Christ is everything. We are nothing and worthless apart from Christ, is a very normal Christian thing to say. It is a comfort that the Lord only sees Christ, and not us.
Since the tone of your post changed for the better I will respond.

Before I do, I think I need to clarify the reason for my original post. Due to the purpose of this forum it would be easy to assume that any slight question that involves the LCs would come across as a bashing of the LC or registering disapproval the LC. While my post dealt with some LC content, my purpose truly was just to present the situation and get some other eyes on it. I really do not have any other way currently to seek this kind of help or input from any other Christians (LC or non-LC), and this question had been bothering me for a while. If some respond that they think the content is the problem - fine, or that the delivery of the content is the problem - fine, or that the elder's response was accurate or not accurate - fine. I just need other ears on it and other's experience as a possible help to me. This is why I mentioned in my OP that anyone could easily hear the same thought (Christ is all, we are not) from any other non-LC church and that I'm not sure the question is LC-specific. I wasn't looking for only LC-positive or only LC-negative responses. I knew I would get both and that's fine. I just needed some kind of answers to consider for when I see my friend again, or when I encounter this situation with others in the future.
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I would add that if a person abides in the Lord, they can get His care, concern and tenderness, as well as joy. The Lord is a real person who can offer everything you imply the local churches did not provide (care, concern, tenderness etc).
I do not recall where I implied that the local churches did not provide care, concern, or tenderness. If I did and you can find the specific quote where I did, more power to you, but that was not my intention, and it was a mistake if I did. Yes, I think we would all agree that the Lord is a real person who can offer everything you mentioned. He is the all in all. He Himself can meet our every need. However, most of us still need to get married. We still need friends and companions. We still need love and to feel valued by other people. So even though the reality is that He alone can be enough for those needs, in a proper sense, the Lord created us as humans with needs designed to be met by other people. I trust you understand what I'm saying here (i.e. I'm not saying the Lord is powerless, etc). While "just turn to your spirit", "just abide in the Lord" is true, because of our design more often than not we need supportive help from those God has placed in the Body. If "just abide in the Lord" truly was enough, any elder responding to a request for fellowship should just roll those words out and turn the saint away since the Lord is better than anyone else. But there's a lot more going on in each of us, so we need extra help through the other members.
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I'm still puzzled by what you wrote "I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC". They only said that we are undeserving sinners and Christ is everything. We are nothing and worthless apart from Christ, is a very normal Christian thing to say. It is a comfort that the Lord only sees Christ, and not us.
Sure, like I said in my OP, this thought can be picked up from many Christian speakings, so I'm not sure if the problem is LC-related necessarily. I can just see very easily that someone who is already depressed (let's "pretend" that depression is a real thing) how it would land wrong in them. People who are depressed often already are bombarded with their own thoughts that they are worthless, they are a bother, they are a waste of breath, no one wants them, they are a burden. To hear that God thinks the same thing must be a devastating blow. Because the other side of it is that God knows the number of hairs on our head. He chose us before the foundation of the world. He created each of us in a wonderful and fearful way. These things, while in the Bible, are not emphasized or even spoken of much at all in the LC, I think with the fear of self-aggrandizement or the contributing to any "self"-esteem (I’m not saying that with intent to bash, I am saying it neutrally in the course of a lot of consideration with the backing of my own experience). But there needs to be a balance. One elder mentioned to me the verse about "not thinking of yourself more highly than you ought" and used that to show that we should think something of ourselves, just not more highly than we ought. It doesn't say don't think highly of yourself at all. Just not more highly than you ought. So we do need to have a healthy level of self-esteem. The Lord wants us even though He knew what miserable, wretched, rotten wrecks we are. It is true we are nothing. But guess what – the Lord still loved you and wanted you and chose you. I think that’s the link that was missing. There was no acknowledgement that the downtrodden person would realize that the Lord knew her wretched condition but still wanted her. Not just her covered in Christ, which is true, but He knows her real uncovered condition and STILL wants her. Sometimes people need to hear certain things like that spoken before they feel the Lord even wants them to approach Him to abide in Him. Otherwise how can someone who thinks the Lord can barely tolerate her begin to try to abide in that very Person who she thinks cannot tolerate her?
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:29 PM   #36
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We all recognize that in this forum the problem is not what Brother Evangelical says but what he represents.
Really, sometimes I fear some here might even deny their faith out of spite just to disagree with something Evangelical says.
Nah, it was statements by Evangelical like claiming my friend wasn't a real Christian, and other things that made me rent my clothes. And somehow he managed to inject a flippant, derisive, dismissive tone even while saying that the Lord is the best hope. But his posts have improved in the past few and he's starting to get into the helpful zone again.

You mentioned another point I forgot to bring up - elders are people too and don't always say the right thing. That actually may very well have been the case here and if so I am happy to hear that as a possibility. It doesn't mean that all elders in the LC are evil. Elders have about 1,000 things on their mind and cannot always respond insightfully. I think the elder in this case just didn't give a full response. I needed the rest of that response!
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:34 PM   #37
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I know you all mean well, but because of posts against local church elders and subsequent ones, I saw the whole thread has degenerated into a general attack against local church elders and the good work many of them do and the local churches.
I do not see that anyone argued against Jesus being the solution. I think most responded to what came across as your careless dismissive tone. But the last couple posts you have posted speak more to the human side of things and are much more appreciated, thank you.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:38 PM   #38
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Since the tone of your post changed for the better I will respond.
Your original post makes much more sense to me now, thanks, and it was more also the posts which followed that seemed like bashing, and in addressing yours I was addressing them as well (so not everything I wrote applies directly to something you wrote).
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:40 PM   #39
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Nah, it was statements by Evangelical like claiming my friend wasn't a real Christian, and other things that made me rent my clothes. And somehow he managed to inject a flippant, derisive, dismissive tone even while saying that the Lord is the best hope. But his posts have improved in the past few and he's starting to get into the helpful zone again.

You mentioned another point I forgot to bring up - elders are people too and don't always say the right thing. That actually may very well have been the case here and if so I am happy to hear that as a possibility. It doesn't mean that all elders in the LC are evil. Elders have about 1,000 things on their mind and cannot always respond insightfully. I think the elder in this case just didn't give a full response. I needed the rest of that response!
I have to post quickly on a little screen. I don't get time or chance to put all the little details in. Also why I need to edit my posts a lot sometimes. I edit because I try to say the right thing in the right way. I really do think about what im saying and how I say it, and feel bad if I make others feel bad. I never really expected people to hate how I said abiding in Jesus was the answer, so.. sorry!
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:41 PM   #40
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Everyone else's responses have been helpful too - Nell, a little brother, Ohio, UntoHim, Truthseeker, byHismercy, least - thank you!
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:07 PM   #41
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I have to post quickly on a little screen. I don't get time or chance to put all the little details in. Also why I need to edit my posts a lot sometimes. I edit because I try to say the right thing in the right way. I really do think about what im saying and how I say it, and feel bad if I make others feel bad. I never really expected people to hate how I said abiding in Jesus was the answer, so.. sorry!
I appreciate your explanation and understand, thank you. Be at peace.

If anything I said warrants an apology from me, please let me know.
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Old 07-12-2018, 06:39 AM   #42
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Nah, it was statements by Evangelical like claiming my friend wasn't a real Christian, and other things that made me rent my clothes. And somehow he managed to inject a flippant, derisive, dismissive tone even while saying that the Lord is the best hope. But his posts have improved in the past few and he's starting to get into the helpful zone again.

You mentioned another point I forgot to bring up - elders are people too and don't always say the right thing. That actually may very well have been the case here and if so I am happy to hear that as a possibility. It doesn't mean that all elders in the LC are evil. Elders have about 1,000 things on their mind and cannot always respond insightfully. I think the elder in this case just didn't give a full response. I needed the rest of that response!
Fair enough Trapped.

The challenge with depression is that there are so many causes and often no one knows why it came about.... even the depressed don't always know. So, most everyone is groping in the dark for an explanation and that can be awkward and filled with misunderstanding. A slight facial reaction, a dead pan, a slight tone in the voice, no tone in the voice... everything gets magnified, a person feels judged or a person feels ignored. Its not easy being a good listener.. requires practice. Yet, even a good listener can be misunderstood just for listening!

And, telling a depressed person that they are nothing... and Christ is all may not be ministering the oil and the wine for that moment... yet, on the other hand it may be the timely word to snap someone out of themselves. Whatever the response it certainly should not lead to an indictment of the eldership, the Lord's recovery, the church. For instance, in one account mentioned in this thread a more empathetic response would seem to have been preferred from the elder but we can't get inside the elder's head to hear it the way he heard it from the depressed on that day. If a person leaves because of an apparent lack of response then I'd be inclined to think that person was already more than halfway out the door. I could be wrong but it just looks that way from here. Relationships matter also, I can take something from one person that I can't take from another.... there are so many variables.

In any case, only the Lord's life can really render the help needed to all of us and those of us who are depressed and that may come through direct fellowship but often it comes through a song, or a testimony, a verse and prayer and a genuine touch from the Lord.

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Old 07-13-2018, 09:23 AM   #43
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In any case, only the Lord's life can really render the help needed to all of us and those of us who are depressed and that may come through direct fellowship but often it comes through a song, or a testimony, a verse and prayer and a genuine touch from the Lord.

Drake
Well not all. Some depression for sure ; like depression as a result of a tragic event or loss. But clinical depression, manic depression/bipolar is best treated by professionals, and usually requires a cocktail of med's.

But is there any wonder that people who are raised that they are born with original sin would suffer depression? That doctrine has serious consequences to the psyche, self identity, and self esteem. It's depressing in and of itself. With that teaching we should put babies on antidepressants when they're born.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:50 AM   #44
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Well not all. Some depression for sure ; like depression as a result of a tragic event or loss. But clinical depression, manic depression/bipolar is best treated by professionals, and usually requires a cocktail of med's.

But is there any wonder that people who are raised that they are born with original sin would suffer depression? That doctrine has serious consequences to the psyche, self identity, and self esteem. It's depressing in and of itself. With that teaching we should put babies on antidepressants when they're born.
I don't discount that some depression needs medical treatment or psychological help. Yet, I think modern society has gone overboard with the whole meds things..... the medical practitioners are overly enthusiastic about prescribing pills and even to kids. Some of that came be traced back to the pharmaceuticals....

Yet, I think for most situations, even dramatic ones the Lord's life is able to supply.

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Old 07-13-2018, 01:21 PM   #45
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Yet, I think for most situations, even dramatic ones the Lord's life is able to supply.
We like to think so. But those suffering unexplainable depression will try anything and everything to deal with it. And meds work for awhile, then have to be changed.

If Jesus fixed all our medical problems we wouldn't need doctors, hospitals, insurance, or any of the like.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:21 PM   #46
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We like to think so. But those suffering unexplainable depression will try anything and everything to deal with it. And meds work for awhile, then have to be changed.

If Jesus fixed all our medical problems we wouldn't need doctors, hospitals, insurance, or any of the like.

Yes, and I think that's another reason why I reacted to the "just turn to your spirit" type thought. More often than not, the Lord doesn't swoop in and fix everything. "Jesus is the answer" sounds good, and I'm not saying He's not, but with most things that's not how He works. Many believers have suffered much throughout the centuries in many ways, and the sufferings did not arise nor continue because of their lack of abiding in the Lord. In fact, taken to the extreme, this thought can and has caused people not to take the action they need to seek appropriate help because they think turning to their spirit is the answer and if that doesn't help then God must have ordained the suffering for them......whereas if they just got medical help ("turning to the doctor") their problem would be solved, the needless and not God-ordained suffering could stop.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:23 PM   #47
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Fair enough Trapped.

The challenge with depression is that there are so many causes and often no one knows why it came about.... even the depressed don't always know. So, most everyone is groping in the dark for an explanation and that can be awkward and filled with misunderstanding. A slight facial reaction, a dead pan, a slight tone in the voice, no tone in the voice... everything gets magnified, a person feels judged or a person feels ignored. Its not easy being a good listener.. requires practice. Yet, even a good listener can be misunderstood just for listening!

And, telling a depressed person that they are nothing... and Christ is all may not be ministering the oil and the wine for that moment... yet, on the other hand it may be the timely word to snap someone out of themselves. Whatever the response it certainly should not lead to an indictment of the eldership, the Lord's recovery, the church. For instance, in one account mentioned in this thread a more empathetic response would seem to have been preferred from the elder but we can't get inside the elder's head to hear it the way he heard it from the depressed on that day. If a person leaves because of an apparent lack of response then I'd be inclined to think that person was already more than halfway out the door. I could be wrong but it just looks that way from here. Relationships matter also, I can take something from one person that I can't take from another.... there are so many variables.

In any case, only the Lord's life can really render the help needed to all of us and those of us who are depressed and that may come through direct fellowship but often it comes through a song, or a testimony, a verse and prayer and a genuine touch from the Lord.

Drake

You make some good points, thank you.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:15 PM   #48
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You make some good points, thank you.
Having struggled with depression my whole life (I have clinical depression) both in and out of the LC, thankfully the Lord has helped me deal with it through clinical practitioners as well as the Bible and shepherding of other believers.

There is no one size fits all way to counsel a believer with depression as causes and solutions vary. Loving concern and the truth (rejoice in the Lord always!) go a long way, but sometimes professional counseling and medications are used by the Lord too.

We need to be honest. The high incidence of depression Trapped mentioned when he started this thread are something that shout “something is wrong with the LCs”. The simple platitudes spouted over and over by LC leaders for 50 years have failed because they are “one size fits all”.

For education purposes people with clinical depression (like me) have a mood disorder. Our mood tends to be low regardless of outward circumstances or what our mind thinks about. Something in our biochemistry is constantly sending us “downer” feelings... all the time, and they never let up. People have a hard time understanding people who are clinically depressed or have manic depression (also a mood disorder where ones mood varies between extreme highs and lows) because they think everyone’s mood depends on outward circumstances or what they are thinking. Not so for people with mood disorders.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:32 AM   #49
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Yes, and I think that's another reason why I reacted to the "just turn to your spirit" type thought. More often than not, the Lord doesn't swoop in and fix everything. "Jesus is the answer" sounds good, and I'm not saying He's not, but with most things that's not how He works. Many believers have suffered much throughout the centuries in many ways, and the sufferings did not arise nor continue because of their lack of abiding in the Lord. In fact, taken to the extreme, this thought can and has caused people not to take the action they need to seek appropriate help because they think turning to their spirit is the answer and if that doesn't help then God must have ordained the suffering for them......whereas if they just got medical help ("turning to the doctor") their problem would be solved, the needless and not God-ordained suffering could stop.
"Jesus is the answer" does not mean we get healed every time or that the healing is permanent. That is not the case. James says:

James 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds

But somewhere in the trial and suffering of depression, we can find joy. We can be joyful and depressed at the same time. That is how Jesus is the answer. That is why abiding in the Lord is important even if we are not healed, we can be joyful.

We can say "in myself I am depressed, but in you Lord I am joyful".

It's a choice and effort every day and every moment to live in our self or live in the Lord.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:06 PM   #50
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In fact, taken to the extreme, this thought can and has caused people not to take the action they need to seek appropriate help because they think turning to their spirit is the answer and if that doesn't help then God must have ordained the suffering for them......whereas if they just got medical help ("turning to the doctor") their problem would be solved, the needless and not God-ordained suffering could stop.
And if they apply that principle to their child they risk getting legally charged with child neglect and/or abuse, or worse.

There was a brother that I knew back in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, that also left. But he eventually went back into the c. in Miami.

Long and short of it, he had a serious drinking problem. He got so many DUI's that he end up on house arrest. When he brought the problem to the elders they told him that they couldn't help him, that he had to seek help outside the local church, like going to AA.

I'd been out decades when he told me this. I was floored. I thought that was just the kind of problem Jesus specialized in. I guess not, according to Miami elders.

If anyone has either a medical or psychological problem, they should do all they can to rectify it, and seek professional help.

Besides, as I remember it, "brother turn to your spirit" actually meant, get with the program ... and follow the authority of the local church administration. Which in my case was, follow Witness Lee.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:29 AM   #51
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One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did.

Are there any verses or stories in the Bible that back this "God is repulsed by you and cannot stand to look at you unless you are clothed in Christ" concept? (I know God forsook Jesus, but that was literally the entire sin of all humankind ever.) I'm trying to help someone who feels this way to not feel this way.
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Old 04-21-2019, 11:11 AM   #52
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Are there any verses or stories in the Bible that back this "God is repulsed by you and cannot stand to look at you unless you are clothed in Christ" concept? (I know God forsook Jesus, but that was literally the entire sin of all humankind ever.) I'm trying to help someone who feels this way to not feel this way.
I don't recall anything in scripture that would lead someone to believe this. And of course the Gospels refute this concept. Jesus had compassion on the worst of sinners throughout his ministry. The Father was in him and he in the Father so whomever Jesus looked upon, God the Father also did.

However, even though Jesus can look upon you with the greatest love he does expect you repent if you wish to receive and follow him. Jesus said you cannot enter heaven without the baptism of the Holy Spirit and to do so you have to have faith and repentance (many overlook the latter). Without this you cannot be in close relationship with Him.

Happy Easter/Passover to you Trapped
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Old 04-21-2019, 03:48 PM   #53
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One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did.
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Are there any verses or stories in the Bible that back this "God is repulsed by you and cannot stand to look at you unless you are clothed in Christ" concept? (I know God forsook Jesus, but that was literally the entire sin of all humankind ever.) I'm trying to help someone who feels this way to not feel this way.
Too many verses in the Bible speak of man's dead and sinful condition (e.g. Eph 2.3-5) and the wickedness of his heart (e.g. Jer 17.9; Mark 7.21-23), but never speak of us being worthless. Many verses (e.g. John 3.16; Rom 5.8) make it abundantly clear that God loves us to the uttermost -- an unconditional love -- which enabled Him to die for us.

Let me comment on your friend, and others, who have feelings of worthlessness. Many parents never learn to distinguish the worth of their children and their bad behavior. They demean their child during disciplining. WL's teachings on this matter were never helpful. Proper discipline never assaults a child's value or self-esteem. Many children are wrongly taught that their parent's love is conditional. True love, what the Bible calls agape love, is unconditional, and independent of our behavior. When a child does not learn unconditional love from his/her parents, it's so much harder to learn unconditional love from our heavenly Father. It's just how it is.

What a mistake it was for us to accept anything W. Lee taught about raising children! His own pathetic sons were proof! Lee sowed many bad "pseudo-spiritual" seeds of teaching into us about marriage, relationships, and raising children. I would whole-heartedly recommend Dr. James Dobson on this subject.
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:27 PM   #54
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Are there any verses or stories in the Bible that back this "God is repulsed by you and cannot stand to look at you unless you are clothed in Christ" concept? (I know God forsook Jesus, but that was literally the entire sin of all humankind ever.) I'm trying to help someone who feels this way to not feel this way.
For those who believe, the verses are to the contrary. You might consider asking this “someone” to provide you with verses for what he or she believes. This is what Jesus says to us:

IN CHRIST, I AM ACCEPTED...

I am God’s child ~ John 1:12
12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.

I am a friend of Jesus Christ ~ John 15:15
15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you.

I have been justified and accepted by God ~ Romans 5:1
1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

I am united with the Lord, and I am one with him in spirit ~ 1 Corinthians 6:17
17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
I have been bought with a price, and I belong to God ~ 1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

I am a member of Christ’s body ~ 1 Corinthians 12:27
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

I have been redeemed and forgiven of all my sins ~ Colossians 1:13-14
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

I am complete in Christ ~ Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to full- ness. He is the head over every power and authority.

I have direct access to the throne of grace through Jesus Christ ~ Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.

IN CHRIST, I AM SECURE...

I am free from condemnation ~ Romans 8:1-2
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.[/B]

I am assured that God works for my good in all circumstances ~ Romans 8:28
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called accord- ing to his purpose.

I cannot be separated from the love of God ~ Romans 8:31-39
31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us
all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
“For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future,nor any powers, 39 nei- ther height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I have been established, anointed, and sealed by God ~ 2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

I am hidden with Christ in God ~ Colossians 3:1-4
1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

I am confident that God will complete the good work he started in me ~ Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

I am a citizen of Heaven ~ Philippians 3:20
20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,

I do not have the spirit of fear but of power, love, and a sound mind ~ 2 Timothy 1:7
7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

I am born of God, and the evil one cannot touch me ~ 1 John 5:18
18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.

IN CHRIST, I AM SIGNIFICANT...
I am the branch of Jesus Christ, the true vine, and a channel of his life ~ John 15:5
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit;apart from me you can do nothing.

I am God’s temple ~ 1 Corinthians 3:16
16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

I am a minister of reconciliation for God ~ 2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has commit- ted to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were mak- ing his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I am seated with Jesus Christ in the heavenly realm ~ Ephesians 2:6
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

I am God’s workmanship, created to do works prepared in advance ~ Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I may approach God with freedom and confidence ~ Ephesians 3:12
12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me ~ Philippians 4:13
13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

I am an heir of God, and co-heir with Christ ~ Galatians 4:7
7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

I have been chosen and appointed to bear fruit ~ John 15:16
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.
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Old 04-21-2019, 10:17 PM   #55
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Thank you Jo S, Ohio, and Nell. Your responses help.

Jo S, I like the point that Jesus had compassion on the worst of sinners. This is kind of peripherally related, but, I think it's the most hilarious thing that Jesus walked up to Matthew smack in the middle of Matthew's collecting taxes.....the thing everyone absolutely despised the most and the people considered the worst sinners.....and called him. And Jesus didn't dress him down or express any repulsion....He just called him.

Ohio, yeah, very helpful. The verses you provide help me with that line I was having so much trouble navigating, where I had to admit and acknowledge that we are in a bad condition and should be aware of that, but it doesn't mean God is repulsed by us, rather, it's the opposite!

I think LC church kids that take what they hear to heart will end up struggling with low self esteem. Parents who parent according to certain WLee principles won't do their kids any favors either.

Nell, that's a great point to ask her to give me verses to backup what she's been told. Concepts that bind have a way of loosening when you realize certain thoughts about God are not what He's ever said. That may also be a great beginning "nutcracker" experience for her to be able to start to bring more crushing concepts about God to the light of the truth on her own. And wow! Thanks for detailing out all those verses. I think my church kid friend's focus is too much on her own bad self rather than focusing on what Christ has done for us.

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Old 04-22-2019, 04:55 PM   #56
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Nell, that was a work of the Spirit! Thanks for posting those verses.
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:10 AM   #57
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Nell, that was a work of the Spirit! Thanks for posting those verses.
These verses were compiled in the writing and ministry of Neil T. Anderson and appear in his book Victory Over Darkness. And yes, a powerful work of the spirit. His book, The Bondage Breaker, has helped me over the years, first to get out of the bondage I experienced in the LC, and to stay out of the bondage that we tend to fall back into.

John 10:10 tells us about the work of the thief: kill, steal, and destroy. I think Christians don’t take this warning seriously enough. I know I forget...! How is that possible?

Anyway, it’s a powerful list of verses.

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Old 04-23-2019, 08:10 AM   #58
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These verses were compiled in the writing and ministry of Neil T. Anderson and appear in his book Victory Over Darkness. And yes, a powerful work of the spirit. His book, The Bondage Breaker, has helped me over the years, first to get out of the bondage I experienced in the LC, and to stay out of the bondage that we tend to fall back into.
Neil T. Anderson also wrote, Who I Am in Christ. I say Amen to Nell, and would recommend his ministry, especially to anyone coming out of the LR. He is somewhat unique in that he ministers against spiritual oppression through positive truths. Very helpful to anyone struggling with condemnation, worry, hopelessness or depression.
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Old 04-23-2019, 01:05 PM   #59
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Thank you Jo S, Ohio, and Nell. Your responses help.[/B]
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Neil T. Anderson also wrote, Who I Am in Christ. I say Amen to Nell, and would recommend his ministry, especially to anyone coming out of the LR. He is somewhat unique in that he ministers against spiritual oppression through positive truths. Very helpful to anyone struggling with condemnation, worry, hopelessness or depression.
Not to discard modern psychology and it's integrators completely (Neil T. Anderson is one) but mastery over the mind, even through scriptural references, won't get you any closer to God and it certainly can't raise a person from the dead. The verses that Nell posted are of course absolutely relevant to a Christian's life, but to me the presentation comes across as affirmation therapy like you'll find in the New Age where repeating affirmations brings an individual a fleeting and superficial sense of comfort and peace. I'm saying this not to offend but because at the root of it, I don't believe Trapped's issue is a lack of psychoanalysis or scriptural validation. His issue, from his own words, is a lack of a tangible relationship with God. And we're not doing him any service by avoiding that issue.

From what I've seen is that in the LC's, especially with those raised in it, the freedom of choice is all but gone or severely suppressed and that includes the individual choice to follow and serve God through the Lord Jesus Christ. In the LC it seems serving the Lord (or what some argue is actually serving Nee's/Lee's/Chu's ministry) is something that's mandatory rather than actually being a choice of the individual. Add to that a lack of understanding of Godly sorrow that brings about true repentance and the reality of the baptism of the Holy Spirit has me questioning many things.

If I were to give you any practical advice that you cared to receive, Trapped, if that you need to find a way to start making conscious decisions for yourself apart from pressures and dictation of others. I can't promise you won't make mistakes but it's part of the learning process. You'll have to start somewhere. You may have to, for a time, distance yourself from certain things and even others but don't need to forsake the Lord in any of it. And I understand that like many that fully depend on the Lord's Recovery (mentally, spiritually, emotionally, and financially) it may seem impossible to sever that yolk but please believe me if you can trust God and it's his will for you, he absolutely will make a way for you.

The reality is that the longer you resist your conscience and drag out the inevitable, the worse your depression and your circumstances will become for you and those closest to you. The fact that you're struggling means you are sincerely seeking and it's a good thing despite the feelings that accompany it.

There are two ways to circumvent depression that stems from hopelessness (I've been there too), it's either choosing Jesus Christ fully and alone or disregarding the Lord completely. One gets you through it and the other only temporarily gets you around it.

Trapped, I pray you find the peace that you're looking for in Christ Jesus. Amen
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Old 04-23-2019, 02:28 PM   #60
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Not to discard modern psychology and it's integrators completely (Neil T. Anderson is one) but mastery over the mind, even through scriptural references, won't get you any closer to God and it certainly can't raise a person from the dead. The verses that Nell posted are of course absolutely relevant to a Christian's life, but to me the presentation comes across as affirmation therapy like you'll find in the New Age where repeating affirmations brings an individual a fleeting and superficial sense of comfort and peace. I'm saying this not to offend but because at the root of it, I don't believe Trapped's issue is a lack of psychoanalysis or scriptural validation. His issue, from his own words, is a lack of a tangible relationship with God. And we're not doing him any service by avoiding that issue.
Integration of psychology and spirituality is legitimate because the Bible itself teaches it. (e.g. Proverbs 23:7; Philippians 4:8, etc).

The Bible teaches us to maintain our thoughts, feelings and decisions in a healthy fashion. In the end that's all psychology is. Certainly prescribing psychology alone is a mistake, but I don't think anyone has done that. And no one has a purely spiritual experience. So our soul, therefore psychology, is always involved.

I disagree that psychological skills cannot help in one's walk with God. Being able to maintain a balanced, even keel in one's psychological being is very useful in maintaining contact with God. Strong, uncontrolled feelings are one of the best ways to lose touch with the Spirit. The Spirit guides us in this balance, but in the end it is a spiritual AND psychological state. Most of the fruits of the Spirit are psychological traits.

And I totally disagree that affirming oneself via the scriptures is something to be suspicious of. That just sounds cynical.
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Old 04-23-2019, 03:11 PM   #61
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I would also argue that the hyper-spiritualizing and over-dichotomizing of the soul and spirit, both in theory and experience, that the LR advocates usually worsens the condition of confused and searching Christians like Trapped. They tend to encourage unhealthy over-analysis, introspection and second-guessing.
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Old 04-23-2019, 04:20 PM   #62
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Integration of psychology and spirituality is legitimate because the Bible itself teaches it. (e.g. Proverbs 23:7; Philippians 4:8, etc).

The Bible teaches us to maintain our thoughts, feelings and decisions in a healthy fashion. In the end that's all psychology is. Certainly prescribing psychology alone is a mistake, but I don't think anyone has done that. And no one has a purely spiritual experience. So our soul, therefore psychology, is always involved.

I disagree that psychological skills cannot help in one's walk with God. Being able to maintain a balanced, even keel in one's psychological being is very useful in maintaining contact with God. Strong, uncontrolled feelings are one of the best ways to lose touch with the Spirit. The Spirit guides us in this balance, but in the end it is a spiritual AND psychological state. Most of the fruits of the Spirit are psychological traits.
Agreed.

It takes little to know that American society, especially healthy family structure, has been spiraling downward for a half century. In the local churches, Chinese hegemony has long applied their ancient mores to a culture which had no means to accommodate or incorporate them. These customs, in fact, being foreign to us, often were accepted as "spiritual," with untold numbers of young people both trusting their elders, and believing their "counseling" was from God.

I have often said that my biggest failure in the LC was excessively trusting the brothers over me. I was often instructed, using Heb. 13.17, to obey the brothers and submit to them because they "watched over my soul." Hardly. They mostly put their own short-term interests first. I got too many sad stories to tell here.

This explains why so many saints I knew secretly read James Dobson, Joyce Meyers, and others. You know, the kinds of ministers that the Blendeds would call "chicken soup for the soul." The brothers and sisters openly just could not admit that Lee's books of wisdom did nothing to help their emotional struggles, parenting difficulties, relational conflicts, etc. It's kind of like posing as a renowned nutritionist and recommending liver for every ailment.
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Old 04-23-2019, 07:48 PM   #63
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These verses were compiled in the writing and ministry of Neil T. Anderson and appear in his book Victory Over Darkness.
Thanks! I don't know that author, I'll check him out.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:11 PM   #64
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Not to discard modern psychology and it's integrators completely (Neil T. Anderson is one) but mastery over the mind, even through scriptural references, won't get you any closer to God and it certainly can't raise a person from the dead. The verses that Nell posted are of course absolutely relevant to a Christian's life, but to me the presentation comes across as affirmation therapy like you'll find in the New Age where repeating affirmations brings an individual a fleeting and superficial sense of comfort and peace. I'm saying this not to offend but because at the root of it, I don't believe Trapped's issue is a lack of psychoanalysis or scriptural validation. His issue, from his own words, is a lack of a tangible relationship with God. And we're not doing him any service by avoiding that issue.
Jo S,

In post #55 Trapped asked for verses to help a friend. You should read the post again that I responded to. This was not about Trapped.

Regardless, your words are offensive, and it’s surprising that you have reduced God’s Word to “affirmation therapy like you’ll find in the New Age.” No one suggested repeating affirmations...this was your take...not mine. I certainly don’t believe the reality of God’s Word brings a “fleeting and superficial sense of comfort and peace.”

Again, I’ll point out that Trapped asked for verses for a friend who was entrenched in negative thoughts and beliefs about God. Per his request, I provided a list of powerful verses. That’s all.

After reading Trapped’s #55 question, how would you help Trapped’s friend?

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Old 04-23-2019, 09:26 PM   #65
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Thanks! I don't know that author, I'll check him out.
Especially helpful to me in NTA’s ministry is a discussion on “what happens when you believe a lie?” The only thing that can dispel a lie is truth.

If you believe a lie, you live a lie. You can’t live beyond what you believe. Equally important, if you believe the truth of God’s Word, you live and walk in His truth.

What we eventually experienced in the LC was, in my opinion, a distortion of the truth that led to deception, i.e., believing and living lies. NTA’s ministry helps you to identify specific wrong beliefs and thoughts that are contrary to God’s Word. Not only to identify but renounce and pray over each wrong belief and/or thought that may bring us into bondage. That is, taking our thoughts captive.

Trapped’s friend was full of, not only unbelief, but believing lies about who God is and what they believed was God’s opinion of us/them. And who is the father of lies? We have a tendency to complicate matters. This gives new clarity to “the truth will set you free.”

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Old 04-24-2019, 07:21 AM   #66
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Don't be too hard on Jo S. LR biases against boogy-men like "modern psychology" die hard. (Is only modern psychology bad? Is old-fashioned psychology okay?)

Caring for good thought habits, healthy emotional management and strong but pliable decision-making is a crucial part of human life and even spiritual life. If we need knowledge and skill to maintain physical health, surely some is needed for psychological health, too.

Witness Lee missed this, and because he was generally too proud and stubborn to admit any lack or mistake (a trait he passed on to his successors), this error lingers.
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:58 AM   #67
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Are there any verses or stories in the Bible that back this "God is repulsed by you and cannot stand to look at you unless you are clothed in Christ" concept? (I know God forsook Jesus, but that was literally the entire sin of all humankind ever.) I'm trying to help someone who feels this way to not feel this way.
Bro Trapped, the only one that comes to mind is not specific to Christ but since Jesus said he only speaks what the Father tells him :
Gen 6:5-6 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:08 AM   #68
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If I were to give you any practical advice that you cared to receive, Trapped, if that you need to find a way to start making conscious decisions for yourself apart from pressures and dictation of others.
Hear ! Hear ! Amen ! That's where we go from here.
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Old 04-24-2019, 08:30 AM   #69
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Don't be too hard on Jo S. LR biases against boogy-men like "modern psychology" die hard. (Is only modern psychology bad? Is old-fashioned psychology okay?)

Caring for good thought habits, healthy emotional management and strong but pliable decision-making is a crucial part of human life and even spiritual life. If we need knowledge and skill to maintain physical health, surely some is needed for psychological health, too.
Good point bro Igzy. I don't know why Trapped wanted verses -- maybe he'll tell us.

But Jo S may be onto something. The authors writing 2/3 thousand years ago knew nothing of our modern age ; knew noting of the scientific revolution, nothing of the industrial revolution, nothing of the Technological age, the age of Quantum Physics or Astrophysics ; nor the age of modern medicine and psychology.

So Trapped's need for verses may have only been to make a point, not for answers for his friend in need of boosting self esteem.

If you ask me Trapped's friend may have been traumatized by the local church, including by Bible verses used there.
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Old 04-24-2019, 10:38 AM   #70
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But Jo S may be onto something. The authors writing 2/3 thousand years ago knew nothing of our modern age ; knew noting of the scientific revolution, nothing of the industrial revolution, nothing of the Technological age, the age of Quantum Physics or Astrophysics ; nor the age of modern medicine and psychology.
This comment is misleading, since "modern" science and engineering still don't know how many of the ancient wonders were constructed.

The Bible is also filled with ancient wisdom, both the healthy and the foolish sort, along with books full of wise counsel, aka "psychology."

When it comes to many arenas in life, whether just plain street smarts, science, or engineering, I believe mankind has actually devolved, and not evolved.
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:04 AM   #71
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This comment is misleading, since "modern" science and engineering still don't know how many of the ancient wonders were constructed.

The Bible is also filled with ancient wisdom, both the healthy and the foolish sort, along with books full of wise counsel, aka "psychology."

When it comes to many arenas in life, whether just plain street smarts, science, or engineering, I believe mankind has actually devolved, and not evolved.
I realize what you are saying bro Ohio. But I know brothers and sisters that were so traumatize by their local church experience, to the point of losing their minds, and having to stop everything related to it, even the Bible, to get their minds back.

In fact I was one of them. It took me awhile to come back. And I'm not totally back even yet. As I'm sure to think.

I know exLCers that are seeing shrinks ... as that's the only help they can find. And thank God for that.

This stuff can be good and helpful, but can also be harsh for some, and cause lasting damage. Just look into The Great Disappointment to learn some history on it :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_...#Repercussions
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:31 AM   #72
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Don't be too hard on Jo S. LR biases against boogy-men like "modern psychology" die hard. (Is only modern psychology bad? Is old-fashioned psychology okay?)

Caring for good thought habits, healthy emotional management and strong but pliable decision-making is a crucial part of human life and even spiritual life. If we need knowledge and skill to maintain physical health, surely some is needed for psychological health, too.

Witness Lee missed this, and because he was generally too proud and stubborn to admit any lack or mistake (a trait he passed on to his successors), this error lingers.

Igzy, I'm glad you caught that and made the distinction between modern and old psychology. There's a significant difference between the two. The perception of psychology in society has definitely shifted in recent times with the main difference being found in it's approach and implementation. In the past, psychology was viewed more of as an academic study and philosophy rather than what today is viewed as a science and methodology.

Before Christ, like many, I sought out other means of alleviating my hopelessness. At that time, my religion was psychology and my prophets were Freud, Jung, and Nietzsche. I lived it. I know all about it and I am definitely not scared of it. I just now understand it's proper place in the context of my walk with Jesus.

It would be naive to think Lee knew nothing of psychology. In fact, I would venture to say he valued it above all else. He understood the human mind very well otherwise he wouldn't have been able to have the level of control that he did. And to anyone from the Midwest LC's reading this, his disciples don't fall too far from the tree so please pray for discernment as to not share in their sins. Don't place your trust in men who cannot save (Psalm 146:3). Trust in Jesus alone.

Hosea in Hosea 4:6 speaks of God's people perishing from a lack of knowledge. In the context of Hosea chapter 4, he's speaking specifically of a lack of knowledge of God, not general gnosis or knowledge. I know my knowledge of the human mind will not bring me or help bring someone else closer to God. However, what it can do is help keep me away from others who do use this knowledge opportunistically and abusively. So the question is, can it help? Yes, absolutely...if wielded properly. Will it bring me wholeness or salvation? No, never. Now, I'm fair enough to understand methods found in modern psychology can at best act as a crutch for an individual and in many cases save lives in desperate circumstances. But again, only God can grant eternal life and make a broken person whole.

Like you said Igzy, fruits of the spirit can be viewed as psychological attributes. But please remember, they're not characteristics of your mind or my own but of Christ's.

I'm not Lee. If you've read my previous posts here, you'd know I don't advocate the hyper-spirituality of "getting out of your mind and into your spirit". I do, however, encourage Christian's to align their minds with Christ's. In my previous post the whole point was you can't do that without first having a real foundational relationship with God through a genuine repentance and trust in Jesus Christ and you can't even begin to have a dichotomy of soul and spirit without the first having the Spirit of God dwelling in you (John 3:6). That's not just religious talk. It's a real thing that really happens.

Through faith we understand Christ has already done all the work for us and that includes aligning himself and his mind fully to God our Father. This is something we can't do of our own effort or from the gathering of all the wisdom of this world but if we trust him, his mind will be given to us (1 Corinthians 2:16).

To make the point a bit clearer, remember the story of the women at the well. The Lord Jesus recalled many details of this women's life in an instant and in the process completely baffling her. Why? Well, probably because Jesus himself wasn't present in the events of this women's life, in fact, he was most likely just a child or a young man while those events unfolded. So how is it that he knew these things without the empirical knowledge that's usually needed to recall such things about someone else's life? The answer is, God knew those things and Jesus fully trusted his Father. In turn God conveyed to Jesus this womens life for the purpose of his testimony. That's how faith works.

I'm not saying you will have an ability to summon psychic powers by trusting in God but what I am saying is that if we fully trust in Christ's finished work, through that faith we won't need to put effort into fixing our broken minds. But what we do need to do is to put effort in aligning and subjecting our mind's through faith and trust to Christ. He'll do the rest.

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Jo S,

In post #55 Trapped asked for verses to help a friend. You should read the post again that I responded to. This was not about Trapped.

Regardless, your words are offensive, and it’s surprising that you have reduced God’s Word to “affirmation therapy like you’ll find in the New Age.” No one suggested repeating affirmations...this was your take...not mine. I certainly don’t believe the reality of God’s Word brings a “fleeting and superficial sense of comfort and peace.”

Nell, please understand I wasn't attacking you by my comments, but I did fear I would offend you by criticizing Neil T. Anderson's presentation of scriptures. I know your intentions were to help.
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Old 04-24-2019, 11:50 AM   #73
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But Jo S may be onto something. The authors writing 2/3 thousand years ago knew nothing of our modern age ; knew noting of the scientific revolution, nothing of the industrial revolution, nothing of the Technological age, the age of Quantum Physics or Astrophysics ; nor the age of modern medicine and psychology.
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I realize what you are saying bro Ohio. But I know brothers and sisters that were so traumatize by their local church experience, to the point of losing their minds, and having to stop everything related to it, even the Bible, to get their minds back.

In fact I was one of them. It took me awhile to come back. And I'm not totally back even yet. As I'm sure to think.
Your prior comment, which I addressed and requoted, demeaned the writers of Scripture, and not LC teachers/leaders.

To critique LC/LSM leaders and their teachings is fine, but that's not what you regularly do. Instead you consistently strive to discredit the validity and authenticity of God's word.
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:49 PM   #74
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So the question is, can it help? Yes, absolutely...if wielded properly. Will it bring me wholeness or salvation? No, never. Now, I'm fair enough to understand methods found in modern psychology can at best act as a crutch for an individual and in many cases save lives in desperate circumstances. But again, only God can grant eternal life and make a broken person whole.
I think we are operating under different definitions of psychology. You seem to think it's just clinical pathological theory. To me it includes all the principles of human behavior which are related to the soul.

Psychology is more than techniques for dealing with mental illness. It is understanding the tendencies of human nature. "A soft answer turns away wrath" is psychology. It's not some deep spiritual principle. It's an observation about human behavior, aka psychology. The Bible is full of that kind of thing. God created human nature and he expects us to have an understanding of it.

Another example is the principle of forming healthy habits and eliminating bad habits. Surely God created the fact of habit. But habit is an example of psychology; it's not a spiritual principle, but it can help our spirituality. So proper leveraging of psychology can help our relationship with God and our spiritual lives. No, it alone can't make us whole, but it can help us walk the path to wholeness more efficiently.

As an analogy, it's like being in good physical shape compared to being a good hockey player. Being in good shape (having good psychology) won't make you a good hockey player (know God). But it can help. And not having it can hurt.
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Old 04-24-2019, 04:05 PM   #75
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I think we are operating under different definitions of psychology...
I think the bigger issue is we're in danger of making this thread about us.


I'll leave it there for now.


Blessings.
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Old 04-24-2019, 04:49 PM   #76
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I think the bigger issue is we're in danger of making this thread about us.

I'll leave it there for now.

Blessings.
Actually I think it's healthy and productive to have this conversation. Igzy's views are similar to my own.

I know some people who are very much pro-Psychiatrist, thinking that all mental health issues are actually biological in nature, thus dragging their child down a life-long path of prescription meds, in lieu of counseling. Others are almost like the JW's, believing that any medical assistance is a failure of faith, assured that God did not want any of to be sick, since "by His stripes we are the healed."

I have personally heard the Blendeds bash all "self-help" books, whether James Dobson, Dave Ramsey, or Joyce Meyers, charging their faithful to adhere to "the ministry" because "Christ is all-in-all." Others reserve LSM's books for Bible reference and study only, seeking out other Christian experts for various needs. (This is basically where I was at.)
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Old 04-24-2019, 06:17 PM   #77
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Actually I think it's healthy and productive to have this conversation. Igzy's views are similar to my own.
Hey Ohio, how come I always feel like you're hovering over every thread on this board?

I'm open to further discussion, I want to take a breather and let others add their thoughts..
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Old 04-24-2019, 07:16 PM   #78
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Your prior comment, which I addressed and requoted, demeaned the writers of Scripture, and not LC teachers/leaders.

To critique LC/LSM leaders and their teachings is fine, but that's not what you regularly do. Instead you consistently strive to discredit the validity and authenticity of God's word.
Sorry you see it that way. I see the writers of the books of the Bible as fallen human beings, like you and I. I don't think that demeans them any more than it demeans you and I. I guess you see them differently.
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Old 04-24-2019, 09:53 PM   #79
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Hey Ohio, how come I always feel like your hovering over every thread on this board?

I'm open to further discussion, I just to take a breather and let others add their thoughts..
At the risk of appearing to hover, I have some thoughts.

This thread was started by Trapped asking for help for how to help a sister that's so depressed she can't go to meetings.

But even the highest and most successful shrink couldn't and can't offer help. He or she would have to evaluate the sister before any hope of help can be offered.

And we don't even know anything about her depression as to what type it is. We know only that it keeps her from attending meetings and her self esteem has been damaged.

Does she have complete and debilitating depression? so that she can't even function or take care of herself? If so that's not easy to treat. Sometimes even pills can't treat it.

But the FDA and Katamine to the rescue. With a new nasal spray called esketamine, that has proven to treat that kind of depression.

My point is that, there's many kinds of depression, and many treatments for the different kinds. Some can be treated with just Zoloft or Prosec. And they may only work for awhile.

Can Bible verses help? Maybe. Maybe not. In some cases verses may turn out to be more disturbing than helpful.

I'm friends with a brother from the LC going way back. He was suffering from panic attacks in the middle of the night. Until he read Epicurus (270 BC, Athens, Greece) on death. Whoda thunk it? But it helped.

So who knows what can help this sister with her depression? or the right solution?

Good luck brother Trapped. And I hope the best for the sister. Maybe not going to meetings is all it will take. Let's hope.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:17 AM   #80
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...Nell, please understand I wasn't attacking you by my comments, but I did fear I would offend you by criticizing Neil T. Anderson's presentation of scriptures. I know your intentions were to help.
And what were your intentions?

Some had already received help, as they stated by posting publicly. How many others were helped...those who come to this forum to read, searching for help? This is why I post here. I try to encourage people who have been hurt in the LC, or any place else, and point them to the Word of God. Neil Anderson's ministry does that. He did that for me. I wasn't drawn to Neil Anderson, but to God...in His Word.

Your criticizing NTA's "presentation of scriptures" is not what happened. You criticized a simple list of verses compiled by him as though there was something wrong it. It was just a list of verses, but you made it seem ugly.

NTA's ministry pointed me, not to Neil Anderson, but to God through His Word. My life was changed. This is the help I was trying to share with Trapped to be passed along to someone who was in trouble. I doubt that anyone would have taken the presentation of God's Word as an affront as you apparently did.

So your remarks weren't an offense to me as much as a frustration. Your remarks may have negated any help some who read this forum may have gained, and discouraged them from reading the Word or receiving help from it.

This topic is about Depression and the LCs. In my opinion, your comments blew up the topic and made it much more difficult to those suffering with depression who might have gotten some help.

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Old 04-25-2019, 04:24 AM   #81
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Your criticizing NTA's "presentation of scriptures" is not what happened. You criticized a simple list of verses compiled by him as though there was something wrong it. It was just a list of verses, but you made it seem ugly.
Nell, thanks for posting these verses. I have read so many of WL's "high peak" banners back in the day, so it is actually therapeutic to print out such "frameable quotes" of God's word.
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:56 AM   #82
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but what I am saying is that if we fully trust in Christ's finished work, through that faith we won't need to put effort into fixing our broken minds. But what we do need to do is to put effort in aligning and subjecting our mind's through faith and trust to Christ. He'll do the rest.
Sorry, Jo. but this sounds like religious extremism. You could just as well be saying, If we trust in Christ we don't need to take care of our bodies, because he'll do the rest. Nope! Or like when Lee said, Take care of the church and the Lord will take care of your family. Nope!
  1. In the first place, how do you know what you wrote is true in general?
  2. In the second place, how do you know someone's faith in Christ won't lead them to get professional counseling and help?
  3. In the third place, even if you have such viewpoints, why would they lead you to be suspicious of what was simply a list of verses with a completely orthodox organization and explanation?
Let me venture answers to those questions:
  1. You don't.
  2. You don't.
  3. You have a strong emotional bias which causes you to see threats that aren't there and for which you probably need counseling. (Just kidding a little.)
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Old 04-26-2019, 02:25 AM   #83
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Through faith we understand Christ has already done all the work for us and that includes aligning himself and his mind fully to God our Father. This is something we can't do of our own effort or from the gathering of all the wisdom of this world but if we trust him, his mind will be given to us (1 Corinthians 2:16).

To make the point a bit clearer, remember the story of the women at the well. The Lord Jesus recalled many details of this women's life in an instant and in the process completely baffling her. Why? Well, probably because Jesus himself wasn't present in the events of this women's life, in fact, he was most likely just a child or a young man while those events unfolded. So how is it that he knew these things without the empirical knowledge that's usually needed to recall such things about someone else's life? The answer is, God knew those things and Jesus fully trusted his Father. In turn God conveyed to Jesus this womens life for the purpose of his testimony. That's how faith works.

I'm not saying you will have an ability to summon psychic powers by trusting in God but what I am saying is that if we fully trust in Christ's finished work, through that faith we won't need to put effort into fixing our broken minds. But what we do need to do is to put effort in aligning and subjecting our mind's through faith and trust to Christ. He'll do the rest...
I found this writing helpful. The focus is on Jesus Christ, what he has done as Forerunner (pioneer, trailblazer, model) and continues to do as Intercessor, King, and Lord.

We speak truth to power. All the "thrones" and "lordships" and "powers if the air" need to hear the truth. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not overcome it.

(All the above assumes the existence of God. If God did not exist then this conversation would have no validity).

I've been aided by psychology to understand how abusive, controlling people build systems both small (family, work environment) and large (religion, politics) to abet their machinations. But ultimately it is my faith in Christ's faith, or more properly his faith in me, that saves.

Of course the LC says that they speak truth to power. They call it PSRP. But their focus is on the "NT believer enjoying grace", not on Jesus Christ. Instead of being an extension of Christ, they make Christ an extension of their "enjoyment" and "experience", just as the LC was an extension of WL... MP once told awareness, "You will take my personality as your own", and whose personality was he fronting?

The second error of the LC, besides a focus on self, is the mistake of characterizing scripture as "fallen human concept" where they can't make it line up with their "NT enjoyment". I see no indication that Jesus or his disciples took this tack. Rather, Jesus did the opposite. He took the words of fallible men, and by his "experience and enjoyment" made them real. Jesus took God's word and said, "This is about me", and Jesus' life was not vain. This was the word made flesh which the disciples saw, and their hands handled (1John 1:1).

This is the truth, and we speak this truth to power. Jesus now has the name above every name, "And it is by the power of faith in this name that you now see this man, standing before you, made whole". ~Acts 3:16 Jesus' faith in his Father's word (see, " it is written" and "scripture must be fulfilled") made it real, or true, to his disciples. He was the word made flesh, the real word, the true word. And his life was not vain. His resurrection validated everything. And the disciples testified to what they saw, which testimony we now hold as the NT. "He (Jesus) trusted in God, let Him save him now." (Matt 27:43; Psa 22:8).

For me, this has been the cure for depression. Other things have helped. I have spent hours in therapy, both individual and group. Very grateful. But that was palliative, buying me time until I could see the truth.
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Old 04-26-2019, 05:08 AM   #84
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I witnessed at least four brothers "crack up" in the LR. One of them committed suicide. One of them got professional help (and never returned to the LR). The other two I'm not sure about.

Although God certainly wants to heal our souls, telling these brothers to focus on God and he would "do the rest" would probably not have been the best advice.

Like I said, one brother killed himself due to condemnation and self-loathing. He stabbed himself with a knife from the kitchen of the brother's house he lived in. The result of a sensitive, unstable nature, combined with the undiscerning spiritual onslaught of the LR.

Another brother's problem was that he became extremely introspective about "following life." Eventually he became so confused about what in him was "life" and what wasn't--and he wanted so much to get it right--that it affected his physical motor coordination. He actually lost some control of his body and began to move like someone with a palsy. He got professional help and I never saw him again.

A third brother was friend of mine. He seemed to have problems like the second brother, being overly sensitive to what was "the Spirit" and what wasn't. He had a panic attack in a young people's campus meeting. The leader there fortunately had some understanding and was able to "talk him down." He left the LR soon after, and that was the last time I saw him.

A fourth brother stayed in the same hospitality I did in Dallas. He exhibited some unstable and even scary behavior, and seemed tormented. I saw him again some years later on campus. He had calmed down some, but was still eccentric.

Anyway, of course God could have healed any of these people. I don't argue that. But when someone has mental problems, probably the last thing you want to do is to focus them on "the Spirit," because they have so many conflicting and confusing inner feelings that they can't sort things out. Because the LR was so intense and so focused on inner experiences, people like them are vulnerable to spiritual attack and oppression.

What people like this need is learned professional counseling and solid, objective, encouraging Biblical truth. God loves them. They are God's children, etc. Talk about the "flow of the Spirit" or "the anointing," etc, should be kept to a minimum, IMHO. But I'm not a professional either.
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Old 04-26-2019, 06:54 AM   #85
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At some point Christians need to understand and acknowledge that there are two spirits. One is Holy. The other is not. I once witnessed a meltdown of a brother in a meeting. There were 50-60 people there who witnessed this. All the words he spoke were “right”. However, everyone there clearly knew something was “not right”. This brother wasn’t around much longer after what happened in that meeting.

This would have been the appropriate time for leadership to help all of us to understand what had happened...if leadership themselves understood what was going on. Instead, publicly it was ignored. Privately, I could never forget what I saw and I could never reconcile “release your spirit” with what I saw. This brother thought he was “releasing his spirit”.

This is an example of the fallacy of Lee’s ministry. That is, an unbalanced approach to teachings about “the spirit”, and why this unbalanced emphasis produced the results it has.

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Old 04-26-2019, 07:20 AM   #86
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What people like this need is learned professional counseling and solid, objective, encouraging Biblical truth. God loves them. They are God's children, etc. Talk about the "flow of the Spirit" or "the anointing," etc, should be kept to a minimum, IMHO. But I'm not a professional either.
Great post bro Igzy. Thanks for sharing it. I can relate. I've known of such brothers/cases -- and sisters too.

For those reasons I think brother Trapped hasn't come to the right place for help with this dear sister.

We're not professionals.

If he's seeking Christian oriented help he should maybe go to Dr. Franklin Minirth, and read his book Christian Psychiatry ... or maybe rather his book Happiness Is a Choice

*Links embedded.
** - There are seven suicides in the Bible. Look 'em up.
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Old 04-26-2019, 07:47 AM   #87
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I think brother Trapped hasn't come to the right place for help with this dear sister.

We're not professionals.
Agreed, Harold.

Let me just say that I think everyone who has contributed to this conversation has meant well. I hope there are no hard feelings.

I've just seen the effect over-spiritualizing can have on the mentally vulnerable, and it isn't pretty. All these brothers I talked about were trying to be "spiritual," for all the good it did them.

There has to be a better balance. Saying the health of our soul is simply a matter of taking care of our spirit is naive wishful thinking, and such advice submitted to those who have serious emotional problems is a prescription for disaster.

It is just the kind of good-sounding but wrong-headed thinking that the LR specialized in. At least one brother I knew is dead in part because of such an attitude. I'm sure the Lord had mercy on him; if anyone was a victim, he was.

Chalk up another one for "God's unique move."
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Old 04-26-2019, 10:06 AM   #88
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Agreed, Harold.
Hear !!! Hear !!!
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Old 04-27-2019, 03:53 PM   #89
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I once witnessed a meltdown of a brother in a meeting. There were 50-60 people there who witnessed this.
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I witnessed at least four brothers "crack up" in the LR. One of them committed suicide. One of them got professional help (and never returned to the LR). The other two I'm not sure about.
This kind of thing happened in the LC, and many of us witnessed it, myself included. And many of us, when we left, needed professional help, to learn to think and feel again. I did.

I want to add a few points. First, that for all the people like "Bearskin Bob" who came in looking like the wild man of the Gerasenes and cut his hair and got a job, it was probably more than counterbalanced by those unstable ones who came in and got pushed over the edge by the repetitive shouting.

Second, and related, how many of the "good material" who have gone, week after week and "training" after "perfecting conference" after "HWMR" after "PSRP" still struggle with fears, anger, anxiety, gossip etc? Where is the promised "metabolic transformation"? Or, conversely, how do you know that the faithful in "fallen Christianity", i.e. the RCC and Presbyterians are not also getting the same transformation? How do you know you really got changed by all the shouting, and that Baptist couple down the street who also raised three kids and held a job didn't experience the same transformation you did, without the repetitive shouting?

Lastly, what of those young ones who grew up in the Robot Factory, who now face life ill-equipped to handle the fear, the rootlessness and the ennui? How to overcome depression and hopelessness? Go to another training? Read another footnote? Shout another slogan? It didn't work the first time, or the second or third or fourth...
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Old 04-28-2019, 09:48 AM   #90
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This kind of thing happened in the LC, and many of us witnessed it, myself included. And many of us, when we left, needed professional help, to learn to think and feel again. I did.

I want to add a few points. First, that for all the people like "Bearskin Bob" who came in looking like the wild man of the Gerasenes and cut his hair and got a job, it was probably more than counterbalanced by those unstable ones who came in and got pushed over the edge by the repetitive shouting.

Second, and related, how many of the "good material" who have gone, week after week and "training" after "perfecting conference" after "HWMR" after "PSRP" still struggle with fears, anger, anxiety, gossip etc? Where is the promised "metabolic transformation"? Or, conversely, how do you know that the faithful in "fallen Christianity", i.e. the RCC and Presbyterians are not also getting the same transformation? How do you know you really got changed by all the shouting, and that Baptist couple down the street who also raised three kids and held a job didn't experience the same transformation you did, without the repetitive shouting?

Lastly, what of those young ones who grew up in the Robot Factory, who now face life ill-equipped to handle the fear, the rootlessness and the ennui? How to overcome depression and hopelessness? Go to another training? Read another footnote? Shout another slogan? It didn't work the first time, or the second or third or fourth...
Hear !!! Hear !!!
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Old 04-30-2019, 02:06 PM   #91
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Lastly, what of those young ones who grew up in the Robot Factory, who now face life ill-equipped to handle the fear, the rootlessness and the ennui? How to overcome depression and hopelessness? Go to another training? Read another footnote? Shout another slogan? It didn't work the first time, or the second or third or fourth...
I'm bringing a post forward that speaks to this. There are many such posts on this forum, and I knew of more YP who are now similarly upset about their LC upbringing. Of course the LC says they just have bad attitudes. But a lot of YP left the LC with such views.

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I think I'm going to cry now after reading this thread. I always felt like I never measured up and inferior to those around me. The atmosphere was always up down up down up down. And I would always try harder but always falling short. It was very frustrating and discouraging.....
What to do? Re-baptize? Re-consecrate? Re-heat the last conference at a higher temperature? Go full-time? Migrate to a "burning locality"? Always the pitch is the same, to redouble your efforts on what didn't work last time. If only you could try harder!
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Old 05-03-2019, 12:40 PM   #92
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I have often said that my biggest failure in the LC was excessively trusting the brothers over me. I was often instructed, using Heb. 13.17, to obey the brothers and submit to them because they "watched over my soul." Hardly. They mostly put their own short-term interests first.
Agreed Ohio. As a teen and as an adult in the local churches, I often thought the problem was me. My concepts. Result I kept my thoughts and my opinions to myself.
I don't know if trust accurately described my relationship with elders, but there was submission. Did they care for my soul? Not hardly!
In recent decades I've come to regard LC elders in same manner as I do libs and progressive politicians. Their self interests and their party interests come first before conscience and compassion. Anything to avoid a conflict of interest with Anaheim (or Cleveland) is central to their decision making.
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