Report from Mainland China

[BreadFish]

Hello, everyone,
I am from a large city in mainland China and regular attending LC meetings. In every meeting we read the HWMR outlines and repeat the words. We do not read Bible in the meeting but the outlines. My group haven't study even one book of Bible verse by verse in 5 years. The believers here are increasing slowly, many new believers do not want to attend the meeting.

I think there are some problems in the local church:

1. Many new believers are not fit in the pray meeting and prophesying meeting. People have to prophesy aloud and shout. In the FTT training, the students are pushed to shout aloud, some brother sisters' throat got hoarse after the meeting. A new believer said she was near to cry not due to the love of Holy Spirit, but the fear atmosphere.

2. The group praying is like a pray competition. Anyone doesn't pray fluently in the group will have pressure.

3. Believers are supplied law more then grace.

4. full of arrogant and proud to other denominations.

5. I haven't seen tears in the prophesying meetings in LC. But I have seen tears in the meeting of denominations.

6. We were not taught a whole book of Bible verse by verse, but according to the crystallization study of LSM.

7. I don't feel real love in the leaders.

to be continue..
etc.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

4. full of arrogant and proud to other denominations.

It's inevitable that the LC cries down Christianity. I have got the treatment by them that my current non-denominational church is nothing but a
spiritual fornication.

6. We were not taught a whole book of Bible verse by verse, but according to the crystallization study of LSM.

Find a church that is faithful to expository preaching.

7. I don't feel real love in the leaders.

We're all on the same page.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's inevitable that the LC cries down Christianity. I have got the treatment by them that my current non-denominational church is nothing but a
spiritual fornication.

That's what I've heard for decades. Though what makes the LC any different?
It's like a mirror. With all the criticism and accusations slung at non-denominational Christianity it's reflects back to the LC.

[aron]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Hello, everyone,
I am from a large city in mainland China and regular attending LC meetings. In every meeting we read the HWMR outlines and repeat the words. We do not read Bible in the meeting but the outlines. My group haven't study even one book of Bible verse by verse in 5 years. The believers here are increasing slowly, many new believers do not want to attend the meeting.

I think there are some problems in the local church:

1. Many new believers are not fit in the pray meeting and prophesying meeting. People have to prophesy aloud and shout. In the FTT training, the students are pushed to shout aloud, some brother sisters' throat got hoarse after the meeting. A new believer said she was near to cry not due to the love of Holy Spirit, but the fear atmosphere.

2. The group praying is like a pray competition. Anyone doesn't pray fluently in the group will have pressure.

3. Believers are supplied law more then grace.

4. full of arrogant and proud to other denominations.

5. I haven't seen tears in the prophesying meetings in LC. But I have seen tears in the meeting of denominations.

6. We were not taught a whole book of Bible verse by verse, but according to the crystallization study of LSM.

7. I don't feel real love in the leaders.

to be continue..
etc.

This is the first post I have seen which purports to come from the mainland. I'm not sure how many LSM - affiliated congregations are there, but it's noteworthy that a religious group with that many adherents has been able to maintain "total radio silence" for so long. This speaks loudly to me, the degree of control of thought and communication.

1. The constant shouting and repeating slogans is a way to create cognitive dissociation and thence to re-program you with LSM directives.

3. Similarly, the "all is of grace" theme allows them to be free of previous religious strictures, and to create their own. Anything they don't like is "Christianity" and whatever they want is "the Body". They just make new laws, is all. And the last state is worse than the first.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

Hello, everyone, I am from a large city in mainland China and regular attending LC meetings.

I have every reason to believe that this post is indeed coming from a brother/sister in a Local Church in Mainland China.

In every meeting we read the HWMR outlines and repeat the words. We do not read Bible in the meeting but the outlines. My group haven't study even one book of Bible verse by verse in 5 years. The believers here are increasing slowly, many new believers do not want to attend the meeting.

Wow, sounds pretty much like the Local Church of Witness Lee that I came into over 40 years ago in Orange County California! Apparently, the only thing that has changed is that nothing has changed. To be sure, we had some slightly different lingo - We had "the Life Studies" to pray-read instead of HWMR, and we had "home meetings" instead of Vital Groups, etc. "Study one book of the Bible verse by verse"? Who needs that when we have God's very oracle speaking directly to us!

As far as "the believers here are increasing slowly", well that has always been the case in the Local Church since at least the mid to late 70s. Oh I've heard of all the tales of huge numbers coming in the LC during the glory days of the late 60s - early 70s.....but I didn't see it with my own eyes, and the followers of Witness Lee have a long history of exaggerating/fudging with the numbers.

To his credit, Minoru Chen actually admitted that the Local Church here in America has had just about zero growth for the last 40+ years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTihYDJxLmQ&t=4235s

I think there are some problems in the local church:
* Many new believers are not fit in the pray meeting and prophesying meeting. People have to prophesy aloud and shout. In the FTT training, the students are pushed to shout aloud, some brother sisters' throat got hoarse after the meeting. A new believer said she was near to cry not due to the love of Holy Spirit, but the fear atmosphere.

"the fear atmosphere". This atmosphere of fear was created by, and fostered by Witness Lee himself. Now this atmosphere is continued up to this very day by the most fervent and zealous brothers in the movement.

* The group praying is like a pray competition. Anyone doesn't pray fluently in the group will have pressure.

Sound familiar?

* Believers are supplied law more then grace.

Oh, they wouldn't call it "law", they would call it "following the ministry".

* Full of arrogant and proud to other denominations.

How many times can someone hear about "poor, poor, Christianity" before it just becomes an abject fact to them. Of course Local Churchers are ordered not to step foot in any other Christian church, so how could they know otherwise?

* I don't feel real love in the leaders.

The leaders are not there to love you, shepherd you or even teach you the Bible - they are there to promote and disseminate the person and work of Witness Lee. They are simply branch managers of the Living Stream Corporation in Anaheim California. Is the manager of your local McDonalds going to love you or shepherd you? Of course not! He is there to sell you hamburgers and french fries. Likewise, your local elder is there to sell you the person and work of Witness Lee. Sad but true. May God have mercy.
-

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The leaders are not there to love you, shepherd you or even teach you the Bible - they are there to promote and disseminate the person and work of Witness Lee. They are simply branch managers of the Living Stream Corporation in Anaheim California. Is the manager of your local McDonalds going to love you or shepherd you? Of course not! He is there to sell you hamburgers and french fries. Likewise, your local elder is there to sell you the person and work of Witness Lee. Sad but true. May God have mercy.

Just had to Amen this.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

...they wouldn't call it "law", they would call it "following the ministry"-

Witness Lee told us that he dropped his culture in the ocean, and left it behind, when he moved from China to the USA. Either he was lying to us or he was self-deluded, because his culture had a strong influence on his understanding, expectation, and behaviour, and this influence permeated the LC.

The Asian culture in general and Chinese in particular is by no means inferior to the West, but it is not divine, and to treat it as such merely created new "laws", or LC practices, that were deadening at best. We thought our peculiarity made us holy, but it just made us peculiar.

[BreadFish]

On one side, I appreciate the good, rich and light shining footnotes in the Recovery Bible, which help us to understand God’s words. On the other side, I am uncomfortable for being taught we cannot doubt the footnotes in the Recovery Bible since they are words of God's ministry.
Sometimes I found Brother Lee’s explanation of a verse is different from Brother Nee’s explanation. For some footnotes, there are no bible support.

I list some examples:
(1) Romans 7: 2. For the married woman is bound by the law to her husband while he is living; but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law regarding the husband.

In the footnote, Brother Lee explain the husband here (the first husband) is not the flesh or the law but the old man mentioned in Romans 6:6, who has been crucified with Christ.

However, while I read Brother Nee’s famous book “The normal christian life chapter 9: the meaning and value of romans 7”, I found Brother Nee explain the husband as follows:
“
The first husband is the Law; the second husband is Christ; and you are the woman.
”
I have read Romans 7 for many times and I feel Brother Nee’s explanation is obvious reasonable but Brother Lee’s explanation is irrational. When Paul wrote Romans, there is no reason for him to make simple things complicated.

Since they are both claimed to be God’s minister, why they have different explanation to this verse.

(2) Brother Lee emphasizes Barnabas is not in the divine stream after the contention with Paul since Baranabas is not mentioned in the Acts from then on. This explanation is also suspect, could we say Matthew and the other disciples of Lord Jesus are not in the divine stream because they are not mentioned in the Acts.
(3) In John 11：35， Jesus wept.
Brother Lee explains Jesus wept because those who were closest to him failed to recognize that he was and don’t have faith in Him. I am not able to agree with Him.

Conclusion: although Brother Lee is a great Bible teacher, his words cannot be described as absolutely correct. Now the believers in LC are taught to say Amen to every word of Brother Lee, this will result in personality cult and cause many problems. In the 1990s, there was one cult “The Shouters” in China called Witness Lee as Lord. The founder of the famous cult Eastern Lightning was also attending LC meetings. Thus in my opinion, there are some dangerous teachings in LCs controlled by Witness Lee. The tone of Witness Lee's book is different from Brother Nee's book. It has some proud taste. I usually read pride and judgement from his book.


Truth will endure the test of time.
Truth should not be afraid of being questioned.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

On one side, I appreciate the good, rich and light shining footnotes in the Recovery Bible, which help us to understand God’s words.

For me, I know study Bibles can be distracting to the point of equating them as authoritative with the text of Scripture. I am using The MacArthur, ESV, Reformation (R. C. Sproul), and Reformation Heritage KJV Study Bibles on my phone for study. I only got a hard copy of Sproul's study Bible. With readily available study notes at the bottom of the page I can go on a tangent sometimes and get sidetracked away from my reading the text only. But I think it is advisable for a Christian not to rely on much the Study Bibles because the notes themselves are not inspired and infallible. You are also diminishing the role of the Holy Spirit to illumine you in your pursuit of understanding the Bible. I was a tad bit disappointed with the notes of the RcV that they are treated as the "Interpreted Word". Plus, many LC people pray-read the notes! And seriously? The Recovery version is the ONLY best study Bible out there?

It's better to set aside all study Bibles and feast upon the text of Scripture.

“Till I come, give attendance to READING, to EXHORTATION, to DOCTRINE’! (1 Tim. 4:13).

“O how I love thy law! it is my meditation all the day”. (Psa 119:97)

On the other side, I am uncomfortable for being taught we cannot doubt the footnotes in the Recovery Bible since they are words of God's ministry.

Nigel Tomes has argued that Witness Lee's teachings Interpreted Word has become par with Scripture:

An example of equating Witness Lee’s teaching to the Bible is provided by one “blended brother” who proclaims, “Many times [Brother Lee] would remind us to say, ‘The Bible says,’ not ‘Brother Lee says,’ even though what he spoke was simply what the Bible speaks.” [EM, The Ministry, Vol. 9, No. 6, (June 2005) p. 179, emphasis added] The statement—“what he [Witness Lee] spoke was simply what the Bible speaks”—makes Bro. W. Lee’s teaching equivalent to the Bible. This concept is being conveyed from LSM’s podium. However, no Bible expositor “simply speaks what the Bible speaks.” It is the expositor’s understanding & interpretation. One example of the “blended brothers” use of the phrase “the interpreted word” is: “we must recommend the use of the Life-studies and the Recovery version. We need to spend time to dig into the interpreted word of God…” [Minoru Chen, The Ministry, vol. 9, No. 3, (March 2005) p. 55 emphasis added] In this context the role of the Life-studies and footnotes is emphasized; “We all need to be helped through the Life-studies and Recovery version with the footnotes to see the intrinsic significance of the word of the Bible. The collection of footnotes in the Recovery version is a precious gem. The practical way to be educated and thus to be reconstituted with the truth is with the tools of the Life-studies and Recovery version with the footnotes.” [Minoru Chen, The Ministry, vol. 9, No. 3, (March 2005) p. 53] Consider also the following statements by LSM-President, Benson Phillips: “Today we have the Bible in our hands, but not many believers understand the Bible. It is closed to them. However, in the Lord’s recovery, we have the Bible that has been properly translated. The recovery version is probably the best translation available. We also have the ministry of the age. Through the ministry of the age, the Lord has continued to further unveil His word. The ministers of the age have interpreted and given the sense that is in the Word. Today we not only have the Bible; we also have the ministry that interprets the Word of God and gives the sense of the Word.” [Benson Phillips, The Ministry, vol. 9, No. 3 (March 2005) p. 117] Benson Phillips continues by making some striking exclusive claims: “In Nehemiah’s time they had the Word, and they had the interpretation. They were given the sense of the Word, entering into its intrinsic significance. Today we have the same. This takes place only in the Lord’s recovery. Everything in the publications circulated among Christians today is old. However, in our publications everything is new. The Word is opened; every page opens up the Word along with its intrinsic significance. Only here can it be said that there is such a deep and real opening of the Word.” [Benson Phillips, The Ministry, vol. 9, No. 3 (March 2005) pp. 117-8, emphasis added] We note also the exclusive claims, “only in the Lord’s recovery”, “only here” etc.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Terry

That's what I've heard for decades. Though what makes the LC any different?
It's like a mirror. With all the criticism and accusations slung at non-denominational Christianity it's reflects back to the LC.

Tu quoque fallacy at its finest.

Click the image below:

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by BreadFish

On one side, I appreciate the good, rich and light shining footnotes in the Recovery Bible, which help us to understand God’s words. On the other side, I am uncomfortable for being taught we cannot doubt the footnotes in the Recovery Bible since they are words of God's ministry.

Conclusion: although Brother Lee is a great Bible teacher, his words cannot be described as absolutely correct. Now the believers in LC are taught to say Amen to every word of Brother Lee, this will result in personality cult and cause many problems. In the 1990s, there was one cult “The Shouters” in China called Witness Lee as Lord. The founder of the famous cult Eastern Lightning was also attending LC meetings. Thus in my opinion, there are some dangerous teachings in LCs controlled by Witness Lee. The tone of Witness Lee's book is different from Brother Nee's book. It has some proud taste. I usually read pride and judgement from his book.

Hi Breadfish,

You are right that Witness Lee is a very gifted teacher who collected many rich teachings from those before him, namely W. Nee and the 19th century Plymouth Brethren writers. Like he often said, "I stand on the shoulders of many men of God before me." Oftentimes he did not take time to credit these writers, but rather presented these truths in the Recovery Version footnotes as his own.

Two dangers are apparent here, one you mentioned and one you did not. Firstly, you are right to speak of the "proud taste." W. Lee puffed himself up, and condemned all other ministers. His pride has made the LC's sick. They are so critical, they cannot fellowship with any other Christians or churches. They believe that they have all the riches. They are like Laodicea in Revelation chapter 3.

Secondly, many of Lee's "original" teachings, like "God became man to make man God," are heretical and leavened. As you have seen with the "Shouters" and "Eastern Lightning" in China, these teachings are a "different gospel," and have damaged many children of God in China. Some now exalt Lee above Christ.

I exhort you to be careful what you read from LSM. Many bad and good things are "blended together" in their books, and it often is very difficult to distinguish the good from the bad.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I exhort you to be careful what you read from LSM. Many bad and good things are "blended together" in their books, and it often is very difficult to distinguish the good from the bad.

I am now the proud author of several thousand posts on this forum (and I've posted on a few other forums as well). I think it's safe to say there are both good and bad things blended together in my posts, and it's often difficult to distinguish between the two.

All of us are like this. Nobody is Untouchable. Witness Lee's error was not the error itself, but to err in a system in which he was held as the Untouchable One, and Today's Moses, and Deputy God, and without error, and thus the errors grew and grew.

To my knowledge Breadfish is the first to report from the mainland. I am sure it is not easy to do, for political, technical, and cultural reasons. May we grant him/her much grace!

I only saw one video smuggled out of China in the early '90s, after the opening of China to the West. At that time in Anaheim CA, (USA) Witness Lee was teaching that "Man became God to make Man God" and in a meeting in China they were shouting it over and over again.

"The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are not three separate persons or three Gods; they are one God, one reality, one person." Witness Lee, The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man (Anaheim, CA: Living Stream Ministry, 1996) under "The Triune God Being Processed to Be the Life-Giving Spirit" in chap. 5. According to the book's preface, the book is composed of messages given in Anaheim, California between February 1990 and June 1991.

https://www.chinasource.org/resource...deas-come-from

Such continual repetitive shouting of what are not biblical texts but questionable (at best) assertions based on one man's "revelation" can lead to the imbalances that follow. The Lord Changhou Shouters, the Eastern Lightning, etc. There was clearly an overemphasis on "The Spirit" and an under-appreciation for the Word. So thoughtless collective excitement was driving the growing process ("building the Body"), and it was manipulated by those who were only partly transformed.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I only saw one video smuggled out of China in the early '90s, after the opening of China to the West. At that time in Anaheim CA, (USA) Witness Lee was teaching that "Man became God to make Man God" and in a meeting in China they were shouting it over and over again.

Such continual repetitive shouting of what are not biblical texts but questionable (at best) assertions based on one man's "revelation" can lead to the imbalances that follow. The Lord Changhou Shouters, the Eastern Lightning, etc. There was clearly an overemphasis on "The Spirit" and an under-appreciation for the Word. So thoughtless collective excitement was driving the growing process ("building the Body"), and it was manipulated by those who were only partly transformed.

For a time W. Lee boasted in the "Shouters" as the fruit of his ministry, boasting of the Lord's blessing in China.

Then things turned crazy. To extol Lee above the Lord cannot be good.

Then LSM disowned these ones like a bad parent with a troubled child.

[aron]

I wonder how many in China see issues with the ministry of Lee - either it doesn't match Nee, or it is contradictory, or it doesn't square with Christian teaching. I recall one psalm saying the he would dip his feet in his enemies' blood, and this was held to be Christ defeating Satan in the footnote. Another psalm was criticized for similar thoughts as "unchristian". No note was made of the discrepancy and I daresay none was raised by the audience or any subsequent readers.

How many see issues like this, and say nothing?

[BreadFish]

Actually some few seeking believers realizes the problems but they have no way to handle it. The leaders are controlled by Lee's teaching.


Most believers in LRC donot know about whether Lee is right or not since they have a low education background. They do not research Bible. They just have to follow the leading ones and become 'Amen robots'.

Frankly speaking, I do not feel too much peace but pressure. I am never fit to the Shouting in the meeting.