Discernment of spirits

[zeek]

Now let's have a discussion about something that no one can possibly know anything about so that anyone can venture an opinion and there was no way either through reason or evidence to demonstrate that it is right or wrong. Such a "thing" is the discernment of spirits.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Now let's have a discussion about something that no one can possibly know anything about so that anyone can venture an opinion and there was no way either through reason or evidence to demonstrate that it is right or wrong. Such a "thing" is the discernment of spirits.

This entire forum deals with the discernment of WL's ministry. Since WL has been utterly condemned by the verses in the Bible Evangelical is attempting an end run around these verses and want to say that calling "Lord Jesus" is evidence that the ministry is according to the Spirit.

[awareness]

Is this thread about Evangelical attempting an end run around the entire Bible? or about discerning spirits?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This entire forum deals with the discernment of WL's ministry. Since WL has been utterly condemned by the verses in the Bible Evangelical is attempting an end run around these verses and want to say that calling "Lord Jesus" is evidence that the ministry is according to the Spirit.

While I am usually not fond of football metaphors, I must admit that the picture I imagine of Evangelical making an end-run around the Bible is vivid. "Utterly condemned" seems a bit harsh. Are you comfortable with the "lest ye be judged" clause, in Jesus's pronouncement on the matter? There does seem to be a relationship between calling on the Lord and the Spirit in the New Testament. But,as I recall, it became a rather dry and mechanical practice in the local churches. Now I realize I'm talking about my own subjective experience. But where the spirit is concerned, what else is there?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Is this thread about Evangelical attempting an end run around the entire Bible? or about discerning spirits?

Couldn't the imputation of the former be an instance of the latter?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Couldn't the imputation of the former be an instance of the latter?

Maybe so. But I still don't know.

[Evangelical]

"end run around the bible" is an exaggeration. Anyone can see that I am proposing the direct application of 3 key verses about discernment of spirits. I have not ventured beyond that.

The suitability of the 3 verses proposed, is enhanced by the fact that the situation in the early church that Paul/John addressed would have been worse than most churches today. They did not have the benefit of gotquestions.org, or any internet forum, or even the complete New Testament to guide their discernment. They had a simple test, which was what a person says about Christ reflects what is in their heart (Luke 6:45). John and Paul did not describe any further tests than theses.

Lee is sometimes accused of being a gnostic, so these tests applied to gnosticism in the early church should work for the local churches as well!

Rather, ZNP and others are trying their best to explain away these verses and why these verses are inadequate. To do so, they have had to venture from Hebrews to Proverbs (and these are very light on the subject of spiritual discernment), which do not provide a complete or adequate answer.

I agree with Zeek's statement about "What else is there?". If we cannot use the confession of the Lord Jesus as absolute proof of the anointing then there are not many more tests we can use and stay within the bible. Medieval Europe or even the Reformation was rife with unscriptural tests and this led to the death of many wrongly accused witches and heretics.

I suggest that churches rich in good works which do not call upon the Lord Jesus invite all sorts of spiritual things in their midst. For one, the act of calling the Lord's name might keep evil away as they cannot tolerate it. For two, it might show everyone the genuineness of everyone's heart. It is well known that Catholic liturgies for example are mostly filled with unbelievers, possibly even the Priests, whom evangelicals would love to evangelize and give them the "born again experience". An example of this is Mother Teresa. She did many good works but it is well known that she did not believe the Lord Jesus to be the only way to Heaven. Did she call upon the Lord Jesus or Hare Krishna? Would she have passed the spiritual tests of John and Paul? While people were dying, she was placing mystical spells upon their heads to grant them a ticket to heaven without them having to confess anything about Jesus.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I agree with Zeek's statement about "What else is there?". If we cannot use the confession of the Lord Jesus as absolute proof of the anointing then there are not many more tests we can use and stay within the bible. Medieval Europe or even the Reformation was rife with unscriptural tests and this led to the death of many wrongly accused witches and heretics.

You are misappropriating what I said. When I asked "What else is there?" I was referring to the individual's subjective experience. To turn that around and make it an "absolute proof" by which judge other's "anointing" subverts my meaning. Based on Jesus' dictum "judge not lest ye be judged", I submit that all judgments of our fellow human beings should be provisional not final in recognition of our own fallibility.

What you're asserting about calling on the name of the Lord is, based on my experience in the Local Church ill advised. People used the name of the Lord for all kinds of reasons and motives, some of them pure and others not. There's nothing magical about it. You have to make human judgments about intent and it's best to recognize that you may be wrong. "Discerning spirits" is at best an art not a science.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Discerning spirits" is at best an art not a science.

I would say it's neither. It is a God-given ability to see and hear things that are spiritually realized, discerned and judged, and not readily apparent or visible to the human eye. I think this is what the apostle Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Of course "the things of the Spirit" probably indicate something more in the positive realm, however I believe the same principle would apply to discerning or judging "spirits that are not from God". To put a practical spin on this, I would point us to the natural world where there are some creatures that can see and hear in different wavelengths and spectrums than humans can. Of course my example is not totally analogous in that these creatures have innate abilities, whereas the Christians' abilities are bestowed upon them from God supernaturally through and by the Spirit of God.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would say it's neither. It is a God-given ability to see and hear things that are spiritually realized, discerned and judged, and not readily apparent or visible to the human eye. I think this is what the apostle Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
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Agreed, for which we need our faculties constantly exercised for discernment. (Heb 5.14)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would say it's neither. It is a God-given ability to see and hear things that are spiritually realized, discerned and judged, and not readily apparent or visible to the human eye. I think this is what the apostle Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
-

Don't know about the verse reference, but isn't the discerning of spirits one of the GIFTS of the Spirit?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

You are misappropriating what I said. When I asked "What else is there?" I was referring to the individual's subjective experience. To turn that around and make it an "absolute proof" by which judge other's "anointing" subverts my meaning. Based on Jesus' dictum "judge not lest ye be judged", I submit that all judgments of our fellow human beings should be provisional not final in recognition of our own fallibility.

What you're asserting about calling on the name of the Lord is, based on my experience in the Local Church ill advised. People used the name of the Lord for all kinds of reasons and motives, some of them pure and others not. There's nothing magical about it. You have to make human judgments about intent and it's best to recognize that you may be wrong. "Discerning spirits" is at best an art not a science.

1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 seem absolute to me.

If we cannot test the spirits in an absolute and clear way, then we also cannot know if someone is saved or not according to believing and confessing Christ.
The two ideas are related.

Interestingly, Catholics do not believe in the sufficiency of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 neither do they believe we can know if we are saved or not.

I see this like passport control at an airport. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 is like a test to see who has a passport or visa and who does not. The officer does not care what kind of person you are as long as you have the correct passport and visa.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would say it's neither. It is a God-given ability to see and hear things that are spiritually realized, discerned and judged, and not readily apparent or visible to the human eye. I think this is what the apostle Paul was describing in 1 Corinthians 2:14:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Of course "the things of the Spirit" probably indicate something more in the positive realm, however I believe the same principle would apply to discerning or judging "spirits that are not from God". To put a practical spin on this, I would point us to the natural world where there are some creatures that can see and hear in different wavelengths and spectrums than humans can. Of course my example is not totally analogous in that these creatures have innate abilities, whereas the Christians' abilities are bestowed upon them from God supernaturally through and by the Spirit of God.
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If God is sovereign over all, what ability is not God-given?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

If God is sovereign over all, what ability is not God-given?

Maybe so. But the way Paul puts it the gifts of the Spirit are over and above the ordinary abilities.

[UntoHim]

zeek,

You started a thread about discernment of the spirits, please don't widen the topic out to God's sovereignty. (a huge topic that would distract that the topic at hand) The "abilities" I addressed in my post are not necessarily related to God's sovereignty.

Would you like to address anything in my post?
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Don't know about the verse reference, but isn't the discerning of spirits one of the GIFTS of the Spirit?

Does a gifted athlete still need to exercise and practice?

Though we are given gifts, like discernment, it still requires faithful attention and prayer.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

zeek,

You started a thread about discernment of the spirits, please don't widen the topic out to God's sovereignty. (a huge topic that would distract that the topic at hand) The "abilities" I addressed in my post are not necessarily related to God's sovereignty.

Would you like to address anything in my post?
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I thought I was addressing something in your post when I asked about God's sovereignty. You're very first positive point was that discernment of spirits is a god-given ability. I wondered how you thought this particular god-given ability-- discernment of spirits--relates to all the other God given abilities.

I was pleased that you deigned to post on this thread as I am whenever you post in alternative views. I consider you a benefactor and a friend for allowing me to post my ramblings on LCD at all. I view it as an expression of your liberality or shall I say your magnanimity since liberal is considered a dirty word by some on this forum.

I don't disagree with anything in your post though I do find several of the points perplexing. Trying to get into the mind of Paul is always challenging and I never know if I'm doing it right.

He contrasts the natural person with the spiritual person. Now I think I know what he means. But, is he talking about someone who is predominantly natural or predominantly spiritual or is he speaking of natural and spiritual in an absolute sense? If the former then my experience confirms it. If the latter, I can say nothing.

Your distinction between abilities which are innate and those which are bestowed is perplexing and is what I was getting at with my question about God's sovereignty over all abilities. A case in point comes from the book of Acts which I have recently been studying.

In chapter 16 Paul and Silas meet a young girl who has a spirit of clairvoyance. In the Greek it says she had the spirit of a python. Her owners are using her ability to tell the future for profit. She followed the Apostles around crying out "these men are servants of the most high God and they are telling you the way of salvation." Thus she spoke the truth. Nevertheless, Paul casts the clairvoyant spirit out of her.

Now would Paul consider her a spiritual person or a natural person? The story doesn't tell us whether she was saved or not. But apparently she lost the spiritual gift that she had because her owners got angry seized Paul and Silas and dragged them before the authorities.

I think the story raises questions about spiritual reality. The python spirit could speak the truth but was not Truth i.e. Reality- in-itself.

Anyway, now having raised the question of the Python spirit I feel embarrassed because the story is so amazing and beyond my experience. But, perhaps it is relevant to the discussion even though I can only raise it here not on the main forum for fear of censorship.

In general I think spiritual discernment is something difficult if not impossible to talk about because words which are so concrete don't capture spirit. Jesus seemed to get at something like that point when he said in John 3:8 that pneuma blows where it wishes and we hear the sound of it but we can't tell where it comes from or where it goes. Ultimately, the gospel is about Spiritual Reality not just words.

[Evangelical]

Although this thread is the same title as the one I started in the main forum, I see this thread is different .

This one seems to be about subjective discernment of spirits. My thread was about objective discernment of spirits based upon simple tests we can do about what we know of and believe about the historical Jesus. These tests are recorded in the Bible, they can be taken and applied and anyone can apply them, even unbelievers - they do not require any subjectivity.

In this respect it is very simple - tell me what you believe and know about Jesus, and I can tell you whether or not you have the Spirit, instantly. It worked for the early church and it still works today.

This test works because the genuine Spirit is the Spirit of the historical Jesus who really existed. The genuine Spirit will not contradict the historical Jesus by saying that Jesus had two heads, was homosexual, was gender neutral, or was merely a ghost. Demons will always present a distorted view of the historical Jesus, and that could even be by a seemingly innocent painting of a pretty boy Jesus.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 seem absolute to me.

If we cannot test the spirits in an absolute and clear way, then we also cannot know if someone is saved or not according to believing and confessing Christ.
The two ideas are related.

Interestingly, Catholics do not believe in the sufficiency of 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 neither do they believe we can know if we are saved or not.

I see this like passport control at an airport. 1 John 4:2-3, 1 Cor 12:3, 1 John 4:15 is like a test to see who has a passport or visa and who does not. The officer does not care what kind of person you are as long as you have the correct passport and visa.

The problem I see here is your need for an absolute infallible test with which to judge others. Think about it-- your absolutism here exceeds that of the Roman Catholic Church by your own admission! It would be far better if you would would admit that you are a fallible human being who cannot judge others by any absolutistic standard. Read history and you will see the crimes and genocide committed in the name of Absolutism. It's just the kind of mentality fostered by authoritarian cults. Since you are apparently still associated with Witness Lee's Local Church movement , it is evidence that this group still encourages absolutist authoritarian cultish thinking as they did when I was involved in the group many years ago.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

The problem I see here is your need for an absolute infallible test with which to judge others. Think about it-- your absolutism here exceeds that of the Roman Catholic Church by your own admission! It would be far better if you would would admit that you are a fallible human being who cannot judge others by any absolutistic standard. Read history and you will see the crimes and genocide committed in the name of Absolutism. It's just the kind of mentality fostered by authoritarian cults. Since you are apparently still associated with Witness Lee's Local Church movement , it is evidence that this group still encourages absolutist authoritarian cultish thinking as they did when I was involved in the group many years ago.

The bible tells us to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God". And the tests I have provided from Scripture.

You have a serious inability to know right from wrong. The bible is full of absolutes, and we cannot follow God if we are not absolute. The cults of liberalism, pluralism and relativism are a serious problem. Absolute standards are biblical, but the issue is with the standards, not the matter of being absolute.

You started this thread trying to be funny, copying my serious thread in the main forum, with apparently no clue of how to discern spirits. When I started a thread, it was full of informative content. So far you have not explained how you would discern spirits, either subjectively or objectively. Not even offering a human perspective, is it that your little toe tingles, or maybe the hair on your head stands up? How do you discern? Otherwise, just a time-waster as far as I'm concerned.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The bible tells us to "test the spirits to see whether they are from God". And the tests I have provided from Scripture.

You have a serious inability to know right from wrong. The bible is full of absolutes, and we cannot follow God if we are not absolute. The cults of liberalism, pluralism and relativism are a serious problem. Absolute standards are biblical, but the issue is with the standards, not the matter of being absolute.

You started this thread trying to be funny, copying my serious thread in the main forum, with apparently no clue of how to discern spirits. When I started a thread, it was full of informative content. So far you have not explained how you would discern spirits, either subjectively or objectively. Not even offering a human perspective, is it that your little toe tingles, or maybe the hair on your head stands up? How do you discern? Otherwise, just a time-waster as far as I'm concerned.

I discern from your post that you are angry. Did I get that right? Be honest.

Funny or not, my opening post has proved to be prescient so far in that I see that there is no agreement and vehement contention on both threads addressing "discernment of spirits".

Perhaps we will make more progress if we apply the principle known as Occam's razor which says "Entities are not to be multiplied without necessity". In this case, if we want to understand discernment, we might get further if we eliminate those ethereal ever-elusive hypothetical entities called "spirits".

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

I discern from your post that you are angry. Did I get that right? Be honest.

Funny or not, my opening post has proved to be prescient so far in that I see that there is no agreement and vehement contention on both threads addressing "discernment of spirits".

Perhaps we will make more progress if we apply the principle known as Occam's razor which says "Entities are not to be multiplied without necessity". In this case, if we want to understand discernment, we might get further if we eliminate those ethereal ever-elusive hypothetical entities called "spirits".

No, not angry. You wrote nothing that would make me angry. I admit, I challenge, I provoke, I am zealous, but to generate a positive outcome, not to appear angry. I think it is not possible to rightly discern an emotion from text. One can only guess.

Onto something more meaningful - I agree to an extent, I think "spirits" is overused. I do not dismiss them however. If only God's Spirit exists, and no others, then discernment is to ascertain whether or not a person has this one and only Spirit, and who does not. To try and discern things which do not exist, is a futile exercise in mind projection. People seem less harassed by demons when they refuse to believe they exist. The atheist is neither troubled by or concerned with demons or angels, or God.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

People seem less harassed by demons when they refuse to believe they exist. The atheist is neither troubled by or concerned with demons or angels, or God.

I envy them, of sorts. Material observable life is complicated enough, without adding a unseeable spiritual realm.

As far as I can understand it, to discern the spirits has to have something to do with seeing them. And that can get creepy.

A Christian friend of mine, who lives by the Spirit, or makes every effort to do so, has been called a witch, by some of her fellow fundamentalist's church goers. She sees visions too. And God speaks to her. He wakes her at 3am, and speaks audibly to her, she claims, and describes, in great detail.

Seeing seems to be key. Where does that gift come from?