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| Spiritual Abuse Titles Spiritual abuse is the mistreatment of a person who is in need of help, support or greater spiritual empowerment, with the result of weakening, undermining or decreasing that person's spiritual empowerment. |
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08-25-2008, 03:52 AM
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#501 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
Those quotes are indeed scary, and remind me of my school age days in that system. Most of the ones I knew would never tolerate the outworking of those extremes. They were Catholics by culture and convenience. The worst thing for them could be summarized by the Lord's words, "your traditions make void the word of God." In my generation, in my extended family, just about no one is Catholic anymore. Usually, if they are, it is to send their kids to their schools. My question about the teaching of "deputy authority" is this: what's the value? The risk of danger far outweighs the supposed value. While God does raise up certain men in the Bible to represent him, once we make that a teaching in the church, then men will raise themselves up ... to the detriment of others. Fallen man has enough weapons in his arsenal, just think what sanctioned teachings will do. WN knew church history well, along with the "clear and present danger" of even mentioning such a thing as deputy authority, even with caveats on every page. I'm sure in RCC history the "checks and balances" of deputy authority were initially taught side by side, only to be set aside by ambitious leaders who don't want "checks and balances." One such Biblical balance is the presbytery, a group of elders. WN's other teaching of "the work" also propelled the concepts of deputy authority. Those who strongly reject all hierarchy in the church, just don't seem to balk at the same "monster" in "the work." Slowly as "the work" overtakes "the church," we have a "monster" in full authority, yet all the members seemingly are unawares. Change the name of "the work" to "the ministry" and we have today's situation, with "monsters' on the loose for decades.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-25-2008, 04:24 AM
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#502 | |
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Member
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Posts: 688
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Quote:
Also, probably need to go back to the Bible to find out what is meant by the Greek word \apostolos\ in the New Testament. Yes, it's defintion is commonly known but we must interpret the Bible with the Bible and the very common concept of "one sent with full authority" seems suspiciously like a doctrine of control in the "Universal Church." Finally, Witness Lee taught that Silas, Timothy and Titus were "apostles" but the Bible apparently doesn't actually say that. So, consider that some doctrines about who are "apostles" and what those people do may be derived from Rome and also influenced by Lee's own flavor of hierarchy which he laid out fairly clearly in his 1988 booklet "A Timely Trumpeting and the Present Need."
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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08-25-2008, 05:26 AM
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#503 |
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Posts: 73
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I did a quick search on an online Bible (both NASV & KJV) for 'God's economy', 'universal church', and 'deputy authority' - zero, zilch, nada. Did another search on love -more than 400 hits. It's rudimentary my dear Watson.
------------------------------------------------------------------- "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book" - Rev 22:18. |
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08-25-2008, 05:50 AM
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#504 | |
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Posts: 181
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Quote:
I've often thought about someting. According to Lee's "Deputy Authority" teaching, Timothy should have succeeded Paul. In his two letters to Timothy it would seem that Paul was indeed grooming Timothy to at least carry out his burden. But does church history give any indication of Timothy doing anything? Or, maybe he just dropped the ball...oops...I mean "mantle." Roger |
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08-25-2008, 06:39 AM
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#505 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 152
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Idolatry (Continued)...
I took a break for a few days on posting while continuing to follow along. I just went back to my last post and read forward from there to here.
From the start, I have to apologize to the BlessD's of the forum who don't care for all the intellectualism. You're right, we tend to get stuck in it. I'm one of those analytical types that easily gets into it. Sorry. I think it was Igzy who noted that we need to get some of this straightened out in our heads with some more clarity. About the forums: I've actually been happy that this forum came about and that I am not bearing all the weight of the past environment. I am very thankful for this forum and have felt no rejection by the departure from the other forum. In my mind, I've called this forum, Safe Harbor. Maybe it's Safe Harbor except for me on this thread!!!  I have felt only to contribute to ONE topic on this forum. The topic is a kind of amalgamation (look it up, www.dictionary.com) of several things and thus it is somewhat confusing. I honestly believe we need light (God's light) on this thread. I don't have the utterance for what needs to be said here, but I have a portion of it. Without names here are some positions I've seen: View A - there are some 'holism's' (alcoholism, etc.) that many current and ex-LC are addicted to and this has impacted families. View B - the leadership is a problem and committed the errors of the LC, but the regular folk are fine. View C - there is a "good" LC and/or Witness Lee and a "bad" LC and/or Witness Lee and we saw these two things evolve over time. View D - let's look at all this in concrete terms, but not use the words 'demons', 'idolatry', etc View E - there is idolatry present that had a pervasive effect on individuals and families. I believe that View A and View E are effectively one in the same. When something is amalgamated it can be somewhat difficult to extract into it's respective elements. I'm going to take a particular approach. I'm going to try to present some of this from God's perspective based on the substance of the OT. I'm not going to twist God's language to make modernists happy. I'm going to stick with His language and His perspective. I believe it is essential to tune into His perspective to understand idolatry, because the subject really is all about Him and His point of view. Idolatry is set in opposition to Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind. Idolatry is the single most prevalent topic related to disobedience and sin in the entire OT. If we don't know how to map it forward with a sober mind to the current day, then something is wrong. We are told to 'guard' ourselves against idols. If we are ignorant of what they are and how they come into our lives, then we are not on 'guard'. To the frightened, I say what Jesus said, "Fear not". Jesus said that a lot. For now, just learn knowing that God is full of mercy for you in anything you have erred if you are willing to repent of it. More later... Matt P.S. I continue to believe that the consequences of idolatry are much of what we have witnessed across many families in the LC and therefore I continue to address it within this thread. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-25-2008 at 06:48 AM. |
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08-25-2008, 07:33 AM
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#506 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
You have enumerated some viewpoints that the posters have. I could relate to all of them, because each view has merit, with each of us shaped by our own particular upbringings, experiences with local saints, differences with regional leadership, and times and lengths of times, etc. I'm sorry you feel that this forum is a "safe harbor" for all but you on this thread. I don't think any of the posters intended that. I seem to have a "knee-jerk" reaction to what I perceive as "extremes." Perhaps I was trying to make it too "safe" for others. I'll do my best to let you develop your thoughts here without unnecessary interruptions. Peace in Christ Jesus.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-25-2008, 09:06 AM
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#507 | |||
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Posts: 152
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Quote:
For now, let's just see if the substance of what I am saying holds any water or not. I believe it does. Quote:
In my view, let's start with our own house. That's what my family has had to do. We are not done with this process, but God has been good to us in all these things even when it comes to judging us. It starts at home or else it is not a fair game. This was one of the core issues with the LC. It was always pointing at poor, poor Christianity. Well, let's start with the LC (homebase) and focus on it. If we don't get past that, then we don't have to worry about everybody else. I take the reverse view on this point from others. I do so intentionally at this time. If you point to others, then it's easy to make and keep friends. If you point to your own home it gets a bit more difficult. Judgment begins at the House of God. Let's let God judge us first. He promises to judge us unto mercy if we are faithful to repent. But, He definitely promises to judge. If you fall on this rock, you will be broken. If it falls on you, you will be crushed. Quote:
Let me solidify what I mean by means of the N.T. and Paul's express statements. Gal 3:22-25 But the Scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. The law is still a schoolmaster. We are not 'under' it, but we still need it's instruction. 1Co 10:1-14 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (5) But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (6) Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. (7) Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. (8) Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. (9) Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. (10) Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. (11) Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. (12) Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (13) There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (14) Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. Paul writes to Timothy, whom Paul discipled in the Lord. 2Ti 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (16) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. The holy scriptures that Paul is referring to when he speaks to Timothy are the O.T., not the N.T. The O.T. is able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is to furnish you unto all good works. Don't leave behind the instruction of the O.T.. I believe it is folly to do so. Sometimes the O.T. is harder to swallow and sometimes men (me included) allegorize it too much. The N.T. changes some things for our benefit, but not God. God does not change. The O.T. gives us more of a window into the full character of God with many object lessons and examples. Without that context, the full meaning and reality of 'Christ in you, the hope of glory' cannot be understood and you can become prey to the evil one. It has been my study of the O.T. that continues to make the N.T. a more fabulous part of the Bible. The N.T. does not exist without the O.T. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-25-2008 at 12:06 PM. |
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08-25-2008, 09:14 AM
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#508 | |
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Posts: 152
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Quote:
You're right. There is no perfect church. In fact, the Lord was very clear about this in Revelation 2-3. TJ brought the Church in Pergamos into focus. Pergamos is from the N.T. and points to the O.T. for supporting the Lord's message. I want to follow-up on it with some information about Rev 2:14 and the doctrine of Balaam. This will only take care of half of the equation on Pergamos. The other half is in the doctrine of the Nicolaitans. Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. There are parts of this verse that are a bit of a puzzle. You cannot find a verse in the OT that points to the fact that Balaam "taught" Balak the particular thing that Balak learned and used to 'cast a stumblingblock' in front of the children of Israel. You can find a verse that shows that Balaam 'counseled' Balak (Numbers 31:16), but if you read through the entire account of Balaam (Numbers 22-25) you don't find him telling Balak how to cause the children of Israel to fall. Balaam works for personal profit (aka filthy lucre and selfish gain). Balaam even has direct contact with the Lord and speaks the Word that the Lord gives to Balaam. He was a prophet of God and spoke the words that the Lord gave him to speak to Balak, but he did it for his own (Balaam's) sake. Balaam is asked 3 times to curse the children of Israel and 3 times he ends up blessing them. Balak finally gets disgusted with it and Balak and Balaam part ways. Balaam doesn't "teach" Balak anything in the typical sense we think of "teaching". But Numbers 31:16 says: Num 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against Jehovah in the matter of Peor, and so the plague was among the congregation of Jehovah. The word "counsel" is H1697 / dabar which means speaking or words. It doesn't mean "teach". It basically means talking. I can't find anything else in the OT that indicates that Balaam was "teaching". But the Spirit expressly says in Revelation 2:14 that Balaam "taught". The word in Greek is didaskos, which is used in many other places as "teach", "taught", etc. So, what did Balaam "teach"? He taught him this: If you can't beat them, entice them by means of wile and join them in 'friendship'. This is exactly what Balak did. Balak didn't come out to go to war with the children of Israel. No, he went out with the enticements. Num 25:1-2 And Israel abode in Sittim; and the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab: (2) for they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods; and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. If you have forgotten or I haven't said it, both 'meat' and 'women' were an enticement at this time. The children of Israel had already tested the Lord for want of meat. They complained about only having manna from heaven. They wanted meat to eat. So, yes, an invitation to sit at the table with Balak and eat meat was truly an enticement. (I don't have to explain the other one!) It should be noted that God saw this coming. Read what he said in Exodus 34 very closely. Okay, okay I'll bold it for you. Exo 34:14-16 for thou shalt worship no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: (15) lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot after their gods, and sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee and thou eat of his sacrifice; (16) and thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters play the harlot after their gods, and make thy sons play the harlot after their gods. So back to what it says in Revelation 2:14. He says that some hold the 'doctrine of Balaam', who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. The call to Pergamos is this: Repent or else the Lord will come quickly and make war with the sword of His mouth. Connecting the Dots? Is anybody starting to connect the dots here? If not, I'll take a stab at it pretty soon, but I think we should get a reminder of the 'doctrines of the Nicolaitans'. What were the 'children (young people in the Lord in the 60's/70's) of the LC' enticed with? Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-25-2008 at 10:00 AM. |
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08-25-2008, 09:56 AM
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#509 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 318
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Ohio I suggest that most Christians I know would conclude at least one of the following if they visited the LCS:
1. it's cultic 2. it idolizes Witness Lee 3. it has addictive behavior patterns in relation to Lee
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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08-25-2008, 12:23 PM
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#510 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Quote:
I don't have any dot-connecting to do just yet, but I do have a preliminary question regarding Revelation 2. I find it interesting that in the letter to Pergamos, the Spirit holds the entire church accountable even though it is only "some who hold to the doctrine of Balaam" and only "some who in the same way hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans." The call, nevertheless, is for the whole church to repent for the beliefs of the some. But even more interesting is the contrast with the letter to Thyatira. I really don't know why Thyatira is said to "tolerate" Jezabell - rather than accusing them of the same thing as Pergamos - holding to the teaching of Nicolaitans. It seems their error is identical: eating things sacrificed to idols and committing act of immorality. Yet the "source" or reason for each is different: teaching of Balaam in Pergamos and Jezabel in Thyatira. And even yet more interesting, in Thyatira, it is not the whole church which is held accountable for the acts of the few. Verse 24: 'But I say to you, the rest who are in (BK)Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you. Why is the whole church responsible for the beliefs of some in Pergamos, but not in Thyatira? And why is one said to hold to the teachings of Balaam and the other said to be enticed by Jezabel, when their outward acts are the same? Unless their beliefs are literally based on Balaam/Nicolaitans and Jezable, respectively - why use one analogy for one and another analogy for the other, when their error seems the same? And why the different consequences for the churches? Peter
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I Have Finished My Course |
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08-25-2008, 03:14 PM
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#511 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Quote:
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Here are two possibilities I see for the difference in the scope of accountability: 1) In Thyatira it is clear that only some were holding the teachings of the prophetess Jezebel and practicing what she taught. Thus only those were accountable. What God had against the others was that they “suffered” her or let her be. This was bad but not as bad as those who practiced what she taught. In the letter to Pergamos, it says “thou hast there them that hold the doctrine....” The Greek word “hast” means “to hold” and implies accompanying and following. The whole church was holding to these men and their teachings, so they were all implicated. 2) The church in Thyatira was told that they had not known the depths of Satan. "Depths" here in Greek is “profundity” or "mystery." This could be referring to the “mystery” of the Babylonian religion that eventually infiltrated the church. Deeper initiation into the "mysteries" of the Babylonian religion was directly tied to advancement in the priestly class system or hierarchy--a system that was used to control the common people. This was was not present in Thyatira, but it seems that it was present in Pergamos through the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which produces a system used to conquer or control the people. Apparently, those who were “conquered” or “subdued” were guilty because they believed this teaching and practiced accordingly, allowing themselves to be subdued and brought into bondage. As believers we are to stand fast in the liberty we have in Christ and not be brought into bondage. When there is hierarchical control (where people are fully submitted to others because of their rank or class) a situation of bondage or servitude is produced. God hates this because His people are not to be in bondage. “I am the Lord thy God that brought the up out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” He brought them out of bondage to be free to serve Him. Serving others than God Himself brings bondage. The principal of idolatry was serving other gods. This is why God hated it so. Another thing -- in Ephesus there were “deeds” of the Nicolaitanes, but this was not as harshly spoken of as it was in Pergamos. (God only said he hated it.) In Pergamos the situation was much more serious because they held the the “doctrine” of the Nicolaitanes. Maybe God holds us more accountable for accepting false teachings, because we are responsible for what we believe and are supposed to examine teachings for their truth in the light of the Scriptures. In the Local Churches, we had the deeds of the Nicolaitanes before the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes reached the common saints. The doctrine of the Nicolaitanes was given to prospective members of the “governing” class in secret (like the mysteries?) in Texas as early as 1965; it was the early 1970s before it started to be taught openly among us. So, as in Pergamos, we all have to repent for this. And one more thought--there is no such thing as group repentance whereby a representive repents for a group. The Spirit's call was to individuals to repent. When all the individuals in a group repent, then you could say there has been group repentance. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-25-2008 at 03:20 PM. |
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08-25-2008, 04:27 PM
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#512 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Quote:
I will ponder further your second point and respond soon. I just don't see the first point. I don't think a translation of "to hold" enables the distinction between the situation of the two churches. I don't see the implications you do. It says "thou has there them that hold the doctrine..." Other translations say, "there are some who hold..." and still others, "you have there those who hold..." Why not just say, "I have a few things against you: that you hold to the doctrine..." - similar to the construction and broad scope of the admonition to the Ephesions: "You [all of them - the whole church] have left your first love..." The constrcution of "you have some/those/ones..." doesn't carry the same scope - i.e. that they all - each and every one - held to the doctrine. Nevertheless, the Spirit held them accountable. Thus, I think the distinction is more about the nature of the doctrine versus the enticing of Jezabel in Thyatira. Still, I just don't see the distinction, yet. I found Matt's description of the teaching of Balaam compelling. But it could be condensed down to: the teaching was something that enticed the children of Israel. But put that way, I have an even harder time distinguishing it from the enticing of Jezabel. Thoughts? Peter
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I Have Finished My Course |
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08-25-2008, 05:29 PM
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#513 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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May I ask why the scope of accountability is important to you? The simple thing is to take this letter as one written to individuals in a church calling each of them to repent. If I am guilty of practicing/teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, I need to repent. I personally have never been on the end demanding others to submit to me, but I have been on the end of submitting to others absolutely. I have repented for this. I have set my heart to submit absolutely to only one person, Jesus. That takes care of the problem for me. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-25-2008 at 06:10 PM. |
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08-25-2008, 07:22 PM
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#514 | |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Quote:
http://www.mystery-babylon.net/mystery_babylon.html |
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08-25-2008, 07:48 PM
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#515 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Quote:
If you do a simple word study of the usage of idolatry in the New Testament it's pretty clear that it is associated with many of the baser works of the flesh. E.g. "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like..." (Gal 5:19-22). "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a man is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." (Eph 5:5) "For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry." (1 Pet 4:3) What I'm saying is that these verses suggest that idolatry isn't something that nuanced. It's a gross manifestation of the flesh that is accompanied by other gross manifestations of the flesh. That's one side of it, at least. I'm not so sure idolatry is the problem in the LC so much as gross deceptions based on warped visions of oneness, accord, leadership, one ministry, God's move, etc, etc. Once they are brainwashed into buying into the premises of their particular vision of oneness, the behavior they manifest is the logical result. They get locked in. LCers are no more idolators of Lee's teachings than fanatical Calvinists are idolators of Calvin's teachings. Then again, fanatical Calvinists are kind of idolators of Calvin's teachings. |
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08-25-2008, 10:30 PM
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#516 | |
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Posts: 181
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Quote:
To try and convince anyone in the Living Stream Church that they are guilty of idolatry in an exercise in futility. It's not a matter of being bold to do so. We've all had our moments of "boldness" when in our foolish youth we were willing to blow somebody away with all our acquired knowledge on any one subject. I can remember standing on my dad's toes, when I was fresh in the Lord, and telling him he was destined for hell without Christ. Inaccurate information? Probably not. Foolish presentation? Absolutely. Eventually my Father was led to the Lord in the most tender way, when he was open, and it was done with much prayer, discernment, understanding, and care. It's been my experience that the greatest success comes while discerningly showing them how they have been deceived. This hasn’t been an easy lesson for me to learn. But I know it is the way. Blowing people away with extreme terms and labels? We learned that in the Local Church. It's one of those residucal LSM traits that the Lord has to deal with in us. Roger |
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08-26-2008, 05:16 AM
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#517 |
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Posts: 152
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Okay
So we don't like the word idolatry. That's fine. So it is a strong label like the word 'cult'. Okay. As I said, I am going to stick with God's words on this subject because it has been one of the key things that has helped me see the light.
So, what's the message that underlies idolatry and how does it really apply to the LC and to today? The message and the meaning are still valid and relevant. In the list of base sinful acts that Igzy quoted, I believe that we have all read (or at least some of us) about the following ones present with or supported by Lee. sexual immorality, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy. and yes idolatry, So, yes, idolatry is aligned with the more obvious stuff. We have examples of a number of these more obvious things in the LC. I'm not talking about something nuanced here. We've all been in the garlic room too long. As djohnson has said and my wife experienced when we went to an LC meeting. It appears: 1. cultic 2. idolizes Lee These two are more obvious to the human perception if you aren't initiated in the group already. If anyone thinks I am being extreme just to be extreme, I'm not. I'm just keeping this subject on the table for everyone to continue to consider. If God says nothing to you through it, then fine. I'm working on an exposition of 1 Corinthians 10 to help demonstrate from a NT point of view what Paul was saying about idolatry and the "table of the Lord" versus the "table of demons". The main substantive questions are really related to whether idolatry can take a form that does not include physical idols and/or meats offered to physical idols among believers in a christian setting? For example, when someone, in reverence, says "Brother Lee says..." and then offers up words from HWMR to others at the Lord's table is this something that is idolatrous? As Paul says, the OT children of Israel were given manna from heaven which he equated with "spiritual food" that was Christ. Christ says I am the bread of life and that his words (I believe rhema) were spirit and were life. The words that the Lord Jesus Christ speaks to you are spirit and life to you. He provides them on a daily basis (Give us this day our daily bread) and puts them in our heart. If another man comes along through a system of Christianity and replaces the Word of God with things like HWMR and begins to provide you your daily bread is this not replacing your attention on the Lord with something else? Is this not idolatry? If you choke on the word, idolatry, I am sorry. It's not my word. I'm just trying to pay attention to God for what God says the way He says it. I know this isn't very modern of me. Most of those listening here are not inexperienced in the Word of God. You should be able to eat meat. There is no control here that forces you to believe one thing or another, so there is no real parallel to the LC. If you can discredit what I say and go on your way then more power to you. Matt P.S. One of the points that Paul makes in 1 Cor 10 is for the Corinthians to "judge for themselves". He's basically saying, listen to what I have to say on this subject and then decide for yourselves. I agree with Paul. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-26-2008 at 05:32 AM. |
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08-26-2008, 06:51 AM
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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I believe this thread is primarily about understanding what happened to so many of us who were there, but are no longer. What went wrong to produce such evil fruit? This understanding can help all categories of survivors: abused, abusers, and assentors. Why were we abused? Because we willingly submitted to the control of men more than the control of God. Why did we submit like this? We were taught to do so with leavened teachings. Why did we abuse? Because we coveted something other than God. We were enticed by the devil to be "someone." Why were we silent? Because we feared men more than God. Why did we fear? We were taught unhealthy fear through leavened teachings. Abusive situations thrive in silence and in fear where the selfishness of the abuser can continue unchecked. In the case of God's family, to end silence, to face our unhealty fears in God's light, to purge out the leaven, and to say no to the selfishness of evil men is to end disobedience to God. We are told to expose evil deeds, not put on blinders and hope they go away. We are told to communicate in the light of God's truth, not in the hide in dark perversions of it. We need to learn from what we have passed through so we don't repeat it in some other form, one that looks better. If we still have the basic building blocks of hierarchy in place and hold vestiges of deputy authority teachings which we may believe are the correct "cleaned up" version, it is only a matter of time before there will be bad fruit again. If we don't understand what it means for a Christian to "eat things sacrificed to idols" we'll be found chowiing down again on adulderated and leavened words of God. We need to reach correct conclusions about the lessons God wants us to learn, with His help and light from His Word. So, what we are doing here is a worthy endeavor. My husband and I are in contact with a number of people in the latest "home" church movement. These people are waking up to the evils and deadness in so many churches today and are wanting to come back to Jesus only. I think we have been able to help in some way with some of them as a voice of warning about the danger of making their focus "doing church right." We have been able to share some about how this seemingly good purpose can be used by the enemy to cause us to miss aim from our high calling to know Him. We've been able to warn them about wolves who come clothed in sheep's clothing as angels of light who intend to lord it over God's seeking sheep. Any "together" experience is about helping each other know Him and follow Him as the pre-eminent one, not about building a new and better church expression or offering selfish men a platform for their ambition and becoming objects of their abuse. I am thankful for their sake that God has spent (and is still spending) a lot of time clearing up our minds by light and truth from the pure Word of God which sets free from deception. Otherwise, we might find ourselves spending more time in the wilderness trying again, with them, to do church right. We might even find ourselves as know-it-all wolves who come like angels of light to them but end up lording it over and abusing them. Lord have mercy on us. Send your Word and heal our diseases. (Psa. 107:20) Thankful Jane |
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08-26-2008, 07:28 AM
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#519 |
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Posts: 181
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One thing that became very clear on the other forum was that there were many current LSM Church members who were lurkers, and were indeed affected by the tone of the forum. Several people made this clear to us. Several members pleaded with us to to change the tone for their sake, lest they go away confirmed in the things that the "Blendeds" were saying about us. I remember this because I was one the chief offenders in this area.
If memory serves me well, "kisstheson" was one who became enlightened because of the Berean Forum. Thank God the tone didn't turn him away. But I believe that many were turned away. If we look at things from the Local Church perspective: Back in the day they were very fond of blasting everyone with the words, "Christianity is Babylon." Some were attracted by that, because it appealed to their radical personality. Many were turned away (although, we thank God for that). So, it's not just a matter of being doctrinally right. Even the matter of being doctrinally right is in the eyes of the one on the soap box. Whether or not idolatry is rampant in the Living Stream Church is arguable. Personally, I don't have a problem with the concept, because I believe there is much truth there. But we must be considerate of those who are teetering on the brink. Let's take the word "cult," for example. I learned the hard way that many Living Stream Church members, and many in break away Local Churches are very, very sensitive to this word. Originally, I thought it my mission to convince them that the word does indeed apply to the LSM Church. The evidence was clear, I thought. But what was the result of my insistence? Bottom line? It made ME feel good to be on the soap box, displaying all I knew about the subject; and it might have made some who have the same ideas feel good ("yeah, that's it, get 'em"). But that was, I think, all there was it it. Of course, we can do whatever we want, and it is certainly the prerogative of the one paying for all this to steer things the way they want it to go. The request for being considerate of those who might still come out of the organization is just that, a request. But I think it behooves us to consider such a thing. It is easy to vent. Believe me, I know, because I've done a lot of it. But regardless of how much we like to think this is just a private room where like minded people can vent and agree, the fact is that it is on the World Wide Web. Every eye can see it. We should remember this. Current Local Church Members who are seeking and are still at varying stages of enlightenment, so far as the error of LSM is concerned, are watching with genuine interest. But that's just my opinion. It's not my dime. Roger |
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08-26-2008, 07:41 AM
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#520 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Durham, North Carolina
Posts: 313
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Reply to Matt and others regarding idolatry
Dear Forum,
For some reason, my home computer has been shut out of the forum. Several days ago I prepared the following. Just as I was preparing to post it, I lost the link to the forum and it has not come back. Thus I am taking a few minutes at work to post this. Quotes from Matt’s Posts, Let's be clear. It was Hope that started this line of reasoning at the beginning of the thread if you want to be factual about the introduction of influences from the dark side. He said, "remember there is an enemy". You didn't object to that. He did this to deflect attention from some aspects of individual responsibility for sin. I started pushing on this fact by drawing out the issue of idolatry. Idolatry is a sin. It is a deed that each one of us can commit and must take responsibility for it when we do. If we take care of our sin, then God will protect us from the Enemy. That's fine with me and I will defend my position rigorously on this issue. I'll also challenge the likes of SC and Hope when the defense that is attempted is subpar. Matt, May I assume your reference to me as “the likes of” is linked to your thought that my motive for mentioning the enemy, (Satan, the Devil with his evil forces) was an attempt to deflect some aspects of individual responsibility for sin? We all will appear at the judgment seat of Christ and will be required to take personal responsibility for how we walked. At that time, all our motives will be exposed. Many times we do not know what our motives are. In my original post which may have been the Genesis for all the back and forth, I thought my motive was based on a desire to help the people who have been so hurt, both children and parents. Blaming a brother or sister who did not agree with an edict from Anaheim etc, destroyed many a conscience. They were brought into a "it is your fault" mind set and many times their walk with the Lord was destroyed. I have learned to seek to protect believers, in, out or never heard of the lc, from excessive blaming introspection. That was what I thought was my motive. Maybe I have displayed tendencies to avoid personal responsibilities on the two forums and when we have talked. No good if I have. Idolatry was not only among the Israelites but also among all the nations around them. We all must be on guard against idols. A little side bar, at one time in the recent 10 years I was a frequent speaker guest at another assembly. A brother from that place heard some messages on idols given here in NC. I was invited to give a week-end conference there on the matter of idols. Wow, did that ever change my popularity!! Yes, there is an enemy. He uses idolatry to attack our individual Christian life, our Corporate Testimony and our families. Idolatry is linked to greed because the idol promises to satisfy the greed’s desire whatever that is. Men do not worship idols for nothing. There is a promise of getting the things one lusts for. If we do not put our greed on the cross, we are a sitting duck for the enemy to seduce us through idolatry. The idol’s worship and service will require us to sacrifice something and almost always it is our family and for believers it will include the Lord’s children. This is true whether the person is a Christian or in or not in a local church. Consider how many dear believers in the local churches were sacrificed in order to prove the loyalty of different ones. I was amazed as greedy, ambitious members denounced godly saints as a means to advance in the LCS. Why could they turn on John Ingalls, John So, Bill Mallon and others? Because they had been seduced to believe their greed, ambition for position could be fulfilled by sacrifices, the killing of the Lord’s servants and prophets. See 2 Kings 9:7, 'And you shall strike the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets , and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel. NASB May I call for another deep breath and a step back? Matt, does have a vital point about idols. But I also think we all need a little more care lest we slay some of the genuine servants of the Lord. Consider the zeal but also care of Jehu, the destroyer of the House of Ahab and the priests of Baal. 2 Kings 10:23, "Search and see that there may be here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but only the worshipers of Baal." NASB Again, if I have taken a position of avoiding personal responsibility please let me know. I would prefer to walk in the light. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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08-26-2008, 07:58 AM
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#521 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Quote:
TJ: I have felt and feel strongly in agreement with you: he holds us accountable for our specific beliefs in light of the truth to which we have been exposed. Here’s the problem: given our stupid little heads and fallen nature, we often don’t realize we have failed in our responsibilities to God. Especially when the unhealthy teachings have for soooooo long been couched in Scriptural terms, etc… We may desire to heave out all forms of idolatry from our hearts and beliefs, but may be blind to its existence. This is, in part, why the discussion on whether idolatry can be subtle or whether it is necessarily obvious, is an important discussion. We need to hear something many many times and, finally, only through much fellowship, openness and time in His Word do we finally allow His light to shine and expose our hearts. But even once we each, individually, assess our accountability and repent accordingly, it is important to understand clearly what the Scripture teaches, even if we are not dealing with our own current problem before God. Especially when it is relates to teaching very very serious matters and serious consequences for believers. So, back to Revelation: I agree that there is something about the tolerance of the teachings of Balaam and the Nicolaitans which imbues the whole church in Pergamum with accountability. There is an implication, but not a clear one, that they perhaps allowed this teaching to be held and promulgated by leadership. As you say, it could not have remained unless they tolerated it. But I see this in Thyatira as well. It wasn’t just practices that crept in. It was teachings. Verse 24 absolves “those who do not hold this teaching…” There was a doctrine present among the church in Thyatira just as it was in Pergamos. And the teaching introduced in Tyatira is arguably closer to idolatry than in Pergamos. It true that the teaching of Balaam and that of the Nicolaitans did include eating sacrifices to idols. But Balaam sought to bring in anything which would entice Israel – that was his focus. Its known purpose was to entice Israel into corruption by means which Balaam knew were against God. The teachings of the Nicolaitans were similar, though perhaps less starkly ill-intended. It was an extreme usurpation of the gospel in order to bring in a broader group into Christianity while not requiring the purity of the gospel. It was intended to make Christianity easier to believe and practice, because it did not require the restraint of the flesh. But it was still a known and pointed perversion of the gospel Here’s Iraneas on the matter from Against Heresies: The Nicolaitanes are the followers of that Nicolas who was one of the seven first ordained to the diaconate by the apostles. They lead lives of unrestrained indulgence. The character of these men is very plainly pointed out in the Apocalypse of John, [when they are represented] as teaching that it is a matter of indifference to practice adultery, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. Thyatira was different. Jezebel, as far as we can tell – and those who came into Thyatira (Lydia?) – genuinely believed the mixture they brought in. Jezebel believed in Baal and Israel incorporated this belief alongside their belief in God. They weren’t knowingly perverting the truth, they had to be shown the error of their ways by an awesome display of the power of the Lord – See 1 Kings 18: 21Elijah came near to all the people and said, "How long will you hesitate between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him." Furthermore, the mixture was specifically about bringing in idolatry. Where Balaam and the Nicolaitans used any means possible for their ends, which happened to include idolatry, Jezebel specifically brought in worship of pagan gods. But Jezebel genuinely believed this worship to be proper. So, in short: here’s the distinctions I see: 1) the perversions brought in by Balaam and the Nicolaitans were known to be perversions and were brought in because of that reason 2) the perversions brought in by Balaam and the Nicolaitans weren’t specific unto themselves – they were simply anything and everything that could be brought in to pervert Israel or to broaden “Christianity,” respectively 3) The worship of Baal, on the other hand, was a genuinely held belief brought into Israel and was specifically about idolatry – not just mixture for the sake of mixture. Now, why these distinctions result in different consequences for the churches in Revelation, I don’t know. Since I didn’t initially see the difference between the errors of the two churches (since the outward behavior was the same), I wanted to determine the distinctions first. The next questions are: 1) do these distinctions hold up? 2) If so, why the different consequences (i.e. scope of accountability) in the two churches? 3) Which, if any, is more applicable to the LC? One? The other? Both? Neither? Thoughts? Peter
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I Have Finished My Course |
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08-26-2008, 08:05 AM
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#522 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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I believe we should pay close attention to the idea of the mystery of iniquity that Paul spoke about and to its development over time. From our vantage point centuries later we have the possibility of understanding something about this by looking at church history, including our own experience. I believe that the picture we see in the woman, Mystery Babylon the Great, is a picture of God's people caught in a system of idolatry.
As believers, we need to see this, not for the purpose of standing and pronouncing condemnations against a group of Christians or for slaying others with this truth, but for light on our own hearts because "coming out of her" is a heart matter. It is about personal obedience and absolute submission to Christ only. It is about each person learning to cling to Jesus only and each one following Him, not denying His name and keeping His pure word. It is so we can serve Him only and not serve other gods, so we can eat the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth and not the leavened bread of malice and wickedness. It is about being a participant in the new covenant where God Himself is writing His laws on each of our hearts and minds. The following is taken from a commentary by Barnes on verse 2Th 2:7. I don’t believe anyone can argue successfully that the mystery of iniquity was not clearly at work among us in the Local Churches. Of course, it is at work in other places, but we need to look at where we were and learn: For the mystery of iniquity - On the meaning of the word mystery ... It means properly what is hidden or concealed; not necessarily that which is unintelligible. The “mystery of iniquity” seems here to refer to some hidden or concealed depravity - some form of sin which was working secretly and silently, and which had not yet developed itself. Any secret sources of iniquity in the church - anything that tended to corrupt its doctrines, and to destroy the simplicity of the faith of the gospel, would correspond with the meaning of the word. Doddridge correctly supposes that this may refer to the pride and ambition of some ministers, the factious temper of some Christians, the imposing’ of unauthorized severities, the worship of angels, etc. Doth already work - There are elements of these corruptions already existing in the church. Dr. Newton maintains that the foundations of popery were laid in the apostle’s days, and that the superstructure was raised by degrees; and this is entirely in accordance with the statements of the apostle Paul. In his own time, he says, there were things which, if not restrained, would expand and ripen into that apostasy. He has not told as particularly to what he refers, but there are several intimations in his writings, as well as in other parts of the New Testament, that even in the apostolic age there existed the elements of those corruptions which were afterward developed and imbodied in the papacy. Even then, says Dr. Newton, “idolatry was stealing into the church 1Co_10:14, and a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels.” (Col_2:18; see, however, my note on that passage.) “There existed strife and divisions 1Co_3:3, an adulterating and handling the word of God deceitfully 2Co_2:17; 2Co_4:2, a gain of godliness, teaching of things for filthy lucre’s sake 1Ti_6:5; Tit_1:11, a vain observation of festivals Gal_4:10, a vain distinction of meats 1Co_8:8, a neglecting of the body Col_2:23, traditions, and commandments, and doctrines of men Col_2:8, Col_2:22; compare 3Jo_1:9, “Diotrephes, who loveth to have the pre-eminence.” These things constituted the elements of the corruptions which were afterward developed in the papacy, and which are imbodied in that system. An eye that could see all, would even then have perceived that if there were no restraint, these incipient corruptions would grow up into that system, and would be expanded into all the corruptions and arrogant claims which have ever characterized it; compare 1Jo_4:3. Thankful Jane |
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08-26-2008, 08:16 AM
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#523 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Quote:
I have one thing to say quickly and that is, I don't think the purpose of this exercise is to apply teachings in Revelation to the Local Church as a whole. The LC has all kinds of characteristics. I don't think anything is going to be a perfect overlay for any group. It's the old "if the shoe fits, wear it" saying. Most importantly, we need to lay hold on our own personal responsibility. That is all for which we will be required to give account. Beyond that we need to grasp enough to understand how to avoid such perversions. We need to be able to recognize those teaching the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes whether we know their motive or intention or not. We need to be able to recognize the doctrine of Balaam and of Jezebel. If we open our heart to him, He will show us what shoe fits us. If we seek truth to help us stand in freedom, He will surely give it to us. Gotta run, TJ |
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08-26-2008, 08:39 AM
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#524 | |
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Posts: 152
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Well said. I personally took a deep breath over the weekend!  But, I don't think many think I have!!!  During my deep breath I thought about a few things. Many current and ex-LCer's don't have any real level of conception of the role of 'idols' in our modern context and especially when it relates to the christian setting. I believe you have more education on this topic from the OT. I have studied it for a while. Why don't you and I toss it back and forth for a little bit. I think there is a lot we can put on the table for consideration. As I mentioned in my last post, let's let others be the judge. They can decide for themselves. Whether people realize it or not, I'm not here to beat anyone up. I just believe that we have to really think about this in light of God's perspective which He establishes quite clearly in the Word of God even if it causes some reactions. We can work through the reactions too. Reactions to the content are welcome in my mind. When I referenced "the likes of", it was two-fold: 1. I was reacting to the idea that there were exceptions in the LC and that your locality was one of them. Yes, I am saying reacting. Some of the reaction was fair and some of it was unfair on my part. Sorry. 2. I was also referring the idea that each thing that we hold on to from the LC must be closely inspected. I did not express this when I said, "the likes of", but it was part of my thought as I wrote. For example, how about "deputy authority" versus "spiritual authority". I've heard you talk about DEPUTY AUTHORITY being very bad, but it is built on top of Nee's conceptions of SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY. What of "spiritual authority" are we holding onto? I'm not trying to go on a tangent. That is another thread. But, each one of these conceptions of God and conceptions of how the church is supposed to operate that is not fully under the Lord can become a source and root cause of idolatry. Now, this kind of idolatry gets more subjective. I've been working on the more objective idolatry for the most part. Conceptions of God become idol based upon how we relate to it in our hearts. The idol is not the thing in itself, but how we relate to it. What I did not use to understand, but makes sense to me now is that idolatry is about wrong relationship. We talk about the need for right relationship with God which is good. God asks us to be in right relationship to Him and our 'neighbors'. When we get into improper relationship to Him and our neighbors because we want (lesser form of greed) something that God hasn't given us then we start getting out of sorts with the Lord. When we move into the heart level area of idolatry, it almost impossible to separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God, because it is a heart level issue. It's very difficult to judge. So, I'm guilty as charged of painting with a broad brush. I'm trying to bring into focus that the way the Lord sees idolatry and has shown by many examples is that it is extremely pervasive throughout all of Israel. I think this is still the case with the idea in mind that we are all Israelites as Paul says, but not according to fleshly birth. As for the more objective aspects of idolatry it is a little easier to look at them. That's most of what I've been doing. I've been pressing on the more objective aspects of idolatry in the LC that we can see with our eyes. Yes, there are still some challenges in proving it out the satisfaction of others and there is a lot of resistance to the idea of even exploring it. Part of the problem at this stage (on this thread) is that there are a number of people who don't even want to talk about it, even if we separate out the Baal worshippers from the servants of God. I have a real hard time being willing to accept an unwillingness to address such an important subject. The most recent appeal is that we should stop talking about this because we want this forum to be more palatable to current LCer's. Are there any proposals for where we should discuss it if we want to preserve this forum? Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-26-2008 at 09:42 AM. |
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08-26-2008, 08:57 AM
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#525 |
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Posts: 273
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Matt,
One of my main objections to your “idol talk” was the black-and-white aspect to it. You said that every single saint was tainted by idolatry. Your logic was that just being in that environment was all it took. Well, what about Thyatira? Here’s a church that was steeped in idolatry and other evil practices yet the Lord says, “Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so-called deep secrets.” Where in your assessment of the LC are “the rest of you” in the LC system? I have other objections to your condemnation, but this one certainly deserves a response. SC |
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08-26-2008, 09:25 AM
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#526 | |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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The only person who really didn't want to talk about it was SC. I didn't hear anyone else say they don't want to talk about. (Actually, if we could "talk" about it we would probably understand each other better. In this format it's often very hard to make ourselves understood even when we feel we've expressed ourselves well. Honestly, I often think we express ourselves better when we keep our posts short. Remember the great advice the father gave his son when reviewing his essays in A River Runs Through It? "Very good. Now make it half as long.") Let me say that I do not think that it is unlikely that idolatry exists in the LC, nor do I think the word "idolatry" is inappropriate, nor do I think the subject is unworthy of discussion. I'm not opposed to Matt's burden. I've just been throwing out some ideas from my perspective, mainly because when I hear the talk about idolatry it seems to me like a blunt instrument going "thud, thud, thud," and I respond more to dagger-like intellectual arguments. Perhaps I'm too "sophisticated." As Nigel Tomes made clear, not everyone responds to the truth delivered in the same way. By all means carry on, Matt. I might learn something. |
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08-26-2008, 09:47 AM
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#527 |
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Posts: 318
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We have the term "teen idol" in our culture. Does this term = a physical stature of the star is made out of bronze and put in a temple and people bring sacrifices and bow down to it? Not likely. It means that teenagers are crazed about the star and follow them and what they wear and how they act and what they say, etc. And the studios and record companies feed this frenzy with savvy marketing. In such a fashion Lee is an idol to some in the LCS and the LSM marketing machine feeds it with their endless stream of adulation.
"Personality cult" is another term used in our society. If a disc jockey is said to have a cult following does that mean he is asking his audience to move to Guyana and kill themselves? Not likely. It means he has a group of people who excessively cling to every word that proceeds out of his mouth and in turn yap about him and his show to anyone who will listen. Idol and cult are not shock words. They are words commonly used in our society everyday and when properly applied aptly describe the Lee/LCS situation.
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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08-26-2008, 09:53 AM
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#528 | |
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Posts: 273
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That, my friend, is a fabrication. I've not only talked about it but I have continued to talk about it. What's up with you, Igzy? You seem to want to pick a fight. SC |
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08-26-2008, 10:20 AM
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#529 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Quote:
Sorry for the misunderstanding. The only person I've ever tried to pick a fight with was Steward, who had it coming. I said that based upon the fact that you are very opposed to implications of idolatry and then you said (I thought) you were through talking about the subject. I took that to mean you didn't want to talk about it. I hadn't noticed your participation since then. Sorry if I misread you. |
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08-26-2008, 10:33 AM
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#530 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 152
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I've been party to some bad things in my life. I don't condemn myself, because God doesn't condemn me. I repent when God shines the light in my heart and helps me to see the error of my deeds. Why was it acceptable for Lee to point at RCC and say idols, idols, idols and it is not acceptable for me to point at the LC and say idols, idols, idols? (This is mostly rhetorical) We will all be judged. All God's ways are judgment. He rightly divides between that which is holy and that which is profane. When it comes to us, those who believe in Jesus Christ we will be counted righteous in that day and granted mercy, but we will be judged. Judgment unto condemnation is quite another thing. I am not doing this. I am judging, but not with condemnation in my heart. God is a consuming fire. He will burn up the wood, hay and stubble. A long time ago, I gave him permission to burn whatever he needed to burn in me. He still working on it because I am a pretty stubborn, hard-hearted, stiff-necked, strong-minded little fellow who needs a lot of heat and pressure to get some things through to my little pea-brain. Let me be very honest, I believe that the fact that you take it this way (as me condemning you) is due to the very fact that you hold something precious about the LC. I'm not telling you that you are wrong to hold something precious about the LC. I am acknowledging the fact that you are doing so. What is it that you hold precious? I'm not poking fun at you or trying to give you a hard time. As honestly as you can say it, what do you hold precious about the LC? (This too can be treated as rhetorical) We've seen so much wood, hay and stubble from the LC that it is hard for me to understand why it is still held in such high regard? When I seen this kind of discussion run it's course before, I can remember hearing that it is the "good" things of the LC (aka don't throw the baby out with the bathwater) that some are trying to hold onto. On your part, I've seen the repeated denial of the "proof" presented about Lee an the LC. You repeatedly say, there is no evidence. I would strongly recommend that you take some time to read Morris Fred's paper on the LC written in the late 60's/early 70's. You will see the patterns of the BB in Lee while he was in Taiwan. You'll see the utterly shocking fact that Lee was staying in close contact with his top lieutenants in Taiwan while he was here in the US (1960-1966) to reestablish his preeimence over the Taiwanese LC by the 70's. This is the very time that Lee was "under the blessing of the Lord and somewhat repentant" based on what I have heard from the likes of Bill Mallon. This is why I am painting with black-and-white even though I know there are many shades of gray. We are hiding things in the gray that need the light of God shining on them. Again, I know I cannot shine the light. It's not my job. It is my job to point at the deeds and make some attempt to connect the dots to the Word of God. If the light shines in then praise God. If I'm wrong, then okay. Only I will suffer loss in this case. I posit that some of the gray is where the idols lie. I think the easiest way to see this is to look at what it takes to hold on to only Christ. In your mind, what does it take to hold on to only Christ? Once you establish that, then you can look and see what else you are holding that goes beyond that. This is the kind analysis that will surface the idols. When you hold up the "gray" things against the Word of God the light begins to shine in and some portions of the "gray" thing turns black and other portions turn white. With God, there are no shades of "gray". The shades of "gray" are a thing of man. I'm not pointing my finger at you specifically. Don't get offended with me. I'm not condeming you. In my heart, I don't judge you nearly as much as it may appear to you in these posts. In recently addressing Balaam, we see an actual prophet of God who only spoke what God told him to speak but he did it for profit and personal gain. Is it not entirely possible that Lee was just like this? The fact that he had such high knowledge of the Word of God does not rule out the fact that he may well have been doing it for very wrong and selfish reasons (personal and family wealth). See 1 Peter 2 it's talking about christians (at least in part, see v20) and it shows that some can be overcome after they have come to know the Lord. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-26-2008 at 10:50 AM. |
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08-26-2008, 10:35 AM
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#531 | |
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Igzy, No prob. I guess I did say I was done talking about it. Anyway, I have no problem at all with the discussion. SC |
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08-26-2008, 10:41 AM
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#532 | |
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So, the question is which one is more applicable to the LC? Thyatira or Pergamos? Or is it one of the others? It's not a relevant challenge to what is being said if you aren't going to lay claim to one of them being the actual condition of the LC. Do you think the LC was Thyatira? If so, why? If you are speaking in the hypothetical and saying that it is possible to have a church condition that doesn't apply to everyone in the church and which God does not hold all responsible, then sure I agree with this. It appears that this is not the case in Pergamos. So, which shoe best fits for the LC? It's quite possible for there to be multiple shoes that fit to some degree, but what's the best fit? Matt |
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08-26-2008, 10:48 AM
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#533 |
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Matt,
For starters, I am not the least offended with you and don't think you're pointing a finger at me in particular. I understand your view, I think, quite well. I will gladly answer your questions here but only after you clearly answer mine. Where are "the rest of you" in your assessment of this matter of idolatry? It seems you took a single word of my post -- condemnation -- and used it to sidestep the central issue. As for that point, I agree you aren't condemning me, but you are condemning the local churches for having idolatry. That's why I chose the word. But before you tackle that, answer my question about the "rest of you." SC |
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08-26-2008, 10:52 AM
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#534 |
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SC,
I think I did answer in my second post. Ask again if you don't think I did. If I am condemning anything then it is idolatry. Are we not all to condemn sin even in our own lives in agreement with God? What I am saying is that there is idolatry in the LC and not just here a little and there a little. It's pervasive and part of the very underpinnings of the entire system of the LC. Matt |
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08-26-2008, 10:55 AM
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#535 | |
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Matt, My last post must have been at the same time as yours. So you have now answered my question. My point concerning Thyatira is that within an idol-worshipping church there are some who do not qualify. (I don't interpret the LC as Thyatira; I agree with Nee on Thyatira being the Roman church.) I can't recall your original wording, but I do know you said virtually everyone in the LC was guilty of idolatry. Right? As for Pergamos not having any exceptions, I disagree. "You have people there who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin by eating food sacrificed to idols and by committing sexual immorality." You "have people there" indicates clearly it was not a monolithic situation. What say you? SC |
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08-26-2008, 11:06 AM
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#536 |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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If we spent as much time talking about the topic as we spend talking about talking about the topic, we might actually be talking about what we are talking about talking about.
 Sounds like we are getting really close to everybody being ready to talk about what needs to be talked about .....  TJ |
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08-26-2008, 11:09 AM
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#537 | |
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Balak = one who lays waste/destroyer Balaam = devourer Nicolaitan = to conquer the people doctrines of Balaam in the hands of Balak + doctrines of Nicolaitans = Bad combination for which we see much evidence in the LC. It is important to note that the responsibility in Pergamos appears to point to everyone. God tells them all to repent. Not just some. Those who acted as 'lord' and those who were willing to submit to this improper authority and receive the food sacrificed to these idols. It was to their destruction that they partook. Think HWMR. It is the "processed" spiritual food handed out as a replacement to the Word of God which is the manna that God intended for us. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-26-2008 at 11:14 AM. |
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08-26-2008, 11:19 AM
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#538 | |
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Matt, I'm not sure what you're saying here. It sounds like you're saying if you read things like HWMR, you're guilty of idolatry. I'm not buying that one bit. I have read many Catholic works (well, some) and received some real benefit. Most everyone I know has read and even quote St. Francis of Assisi's prayer: "Lord, give me the strength to change what I can, give me the strength to resist what I cannot change and give me the wisdom to understand the difference between the two." Good stuff, right? Well, this is the same guy who, "claimed to have had a mystical experience in the Church of San Damiano just outside of Assisi, in which the Icon of Christ Crucified came alive and said to him three times, "Francis, Francis, go and repair My house which, as you can see, is falling into ruins"." [Wikipedia] Does that make all of us who have read and even appreciated him idolators? SC |
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08-26-2008, 11:25 AM
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#539 | |
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We all know that HWMR is not optional in an LSM driven LC. It is the very source used for each Lord's table meetings. The last meeting I went to was just like this. Everyone had their HWMR's out and shared primarily from it. Many people didn't even have a Bible with them. I'm not talking about individual free-will reading of christian materials. I'm talking about systematically replacing God's Word with something like HWMR and providing it as the primary source of spiritual nourishment even at the Lord's table. One more elemental point: Think about how hard it has been for the Midwest to set some distance between itself and the LSM. It's been atrociously difficult and the "destroyer" has worked hard to keep the Midwest under the "lordship" of the "lord" which controls the LSM/LC. The Midwest didn't quietly leave. It's been a huge fight. Why? What's all the fuss? Those who "lord" it over others don't like to give up control. This is object evidence of the deeds of the Nicolaitans. Furthermore, there is objective evidence of the doctrine of the Nicolaitans being fully brought to bear. Spiritual Authority which is the root of Deputy Authority laid the groundwork for Lee to establish "lordship" over many people, but people had to commit themselves to it. There are examples of those who left early on. They saw what was wrong. T.A. Sparks spoke clearly in the form of admonition and warning about the coming "lordship" in 1957. Matt P.S. If you want to be strict in your interpretation of the OT based on what Paul says in 1 Cor 10 and follow through on that (which I think Lee did at one point) then you could say that God wants you to eat the heavenly manna He provides as the only source of spiritual nourishment. Currently, I'm not going that far. From God's point of view, I'd say it like this. Isn't God's Word good enough for you? Why do you want other meat? Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-26-2008 at 01:40 PM. |
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08-26-2008, 12:18 PM
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#540 |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Hi Peter,
I think the statement that the teaching of Jezebel was not held by everyone in Thyatira was made because this was the case. This can be construed to mean that if there had been some in Pergamos that didn't subscribe to the doctrines of the Niolaitanes and of Balaam, the Spirit would have told us so. He didn't, so I don't believe there were such ones. I don’t agree that Thyatira is arguably closer to idolatry than Pergamos. That statement is dependent on your definition of idolatry. I am not defining evidence of idolatry as only eating things sacrificed to idols and committing fornication. I am also defining it as an idolatrous hierarchical system of worship with one at the top dictating the beliefs and practices of all. This is systematized idolatry, clearly seen in the fulfillment of Mystery Babylon the Great. She is the queen of abuse, carried out through men in her hierarchical structure. She is drunk on the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. The Babylonian religion was is a system of worship which was designed to bring worship to the one behind the idol. The N.T. makes it clear that the Gentiles were sacrificing to devils. Satan, in his quest for being like God, wants to be worshipped by the people of God. Mystery Babylon the Great is a religious system of his creation to cause God's people to serve him instead of God. It is filled with filth. That is the the purpose of idolatry. Satan still wants to be number uno with all others bowing to him and under his control. I think that the doctrines of Balaam, the Nicolaitanes and Jezebel all are applicable to the LC in varying degrees. We certainly had the teaching of the Nicolaitanes (just open the book Spiritual Authority by W. Nee and start reading and you’ll find hierarchical teaching leaven imbedded everywhere.) I started writing down some of the statements that are false last night. I kept writing in the margin ... where is support for this statement in the Bible? There is clearly the practice of the Nicolaitanes. As for Balaam, no question about that. We had a prophet of God who was clearly all about his ministry and his interests and pursued this goal even if it brought harm to others. This was due to his covetousness to be the top ministry. He actually took from others and then shaped it to be his own and claimed his teaching was the high peak of the divine revelation. This behavior shows him to be a false prophet. True men of God receive all others and receive other ministries. He led other men into this error and a hierarchy of Blendeds, elders, and fulltimers carry on proclaiming the name of Lee and feeding people the leavened HWMR. To teach people to read only the HWMR instead of sending them to the pure unleavened Word of God, is to feed people leavened bread and to have them eat things sacrificed to idols. Lee offered up his leavened teachings to the idol of his covetousness, and now the exalted One Publication is systematically fed to his followers. As for Jezebel, there is actually teaching in the Local Churches today that supports fornication and adultery. In one place a brother asked one of the leaders about why brothers who were adulterers and fornicators were tolerated in the church and the answer was to just love them and set an example of good behavior for them. This teaching supports the committing of fornication. It is not a pretty picture. Thankful Jane |
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08-26-2008, 04:15 PM
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Nell |
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08-26-2008, 07:01 PM
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#542 | |
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Matt once told me that he learned studying Western Civilization history that the Hebrew people were responsible for the introduction of the thought that the individual was valuable and of prime importance to God. They were also credited with the idea of personal responsibility. These were unheard of thoughts before the ten commandments were given. The Hebrew thought actually elevated the worth of man. Because God had such intimate concern for each individual, man saw himself in a new light. (Matt, maybe you could quote some of this you read me before.) Furthermore, the Hebrew God set His people free from bondage. He would not have His people in servitude to other nations and other gods. He brought them out of Egypt, from a house of bondage and gave them a moral will with a law that allowed them to choose to obey it and He promised to reward them accordingly. It was important to Him that they be free to serve Him. (Let my people go that they may serve me.) The value of the individual was at the center of God's view of His people. As believers each of us are called to be in a new covenant relationship with God which is a very personal and intimate. We are each called to freedom and charged to remain in freedom so we can serve him without fear. Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them. The new covenant is between God and every person who believes the gospel. For us to think of the Body of Christ as some kind of entity that can exist apart from individual people in direct, unhindered relationship with God is simply wrong. The Body of Christ is made up of individuals who have been set free from bondage and have freely chosen to be in relationship with God. Because of this they can be in godly relationships with one another. For a Christian to submit to any kind of control that competes with Jesus being his/her one Lord and Master is the same as entering into bondage and servitude to other gods. Each person in the body of Christ is called to stand in the liberty they have been given in Christ. (Jerusalem which is above is free and is the mother of us all.) 2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters [i.e., not a collective reference but a reference to individuals], saith the Lord Almighty. The Christian walk is not about Jesus and me alone on an island somewhere (though it could be if that is what he wanted), but it is about Jesus being first as my Lord and Master, with no intermediary in between me and Him. The real experience of the body of Christ is dependent upon you and me each knowing Jesus as the one Lord and master of our individual lives. This is the battle point for the devil. He hates this. We can play church all day long and talk body life talk until the cows come home, and the devil will just smile. We can try and produce some kind of collective unity by men exercising hierarchical authority, and the devil will smile even more. What wipes the smile off of his face is each individual finding and experiencing their own new covenant relationship with Jesus. Can Texas culture with rugged individualists be given credit for making strong individual believers? (If it could, then the believers in Texas in the mid 60s would not have snapped their heels and started saluting Lee and becoming his lieutenants.) Only Jesus can make us each stand up strong in Him. He is in the business of doing just that. That is how he builds His church. Just read Eph. 4: " ... for the perfecting of the saints" [individuals]. The job of the gifted ones is to perfect each individual saint's walk with Christ; it is not to directly produce a collective building. It is not to act in the place of God and rule over God's people claiming to represent God to them. Why does God hate idolatry (serving other gods)? Because it hinders individual people from being in right relationship with Him. It introduces another master and damages our individual walks with Christ. We cannot serve two masters. If we are serving another god, we are not serving Him. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-26-2008 at 07:06 PM. |
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08-26-2008, 10:22 PM
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#543 | |
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Yes, absolutely. There are many dear saints in the Local Churches (splinter groups) and the Living Stream Church who do not bow their knee to idols. Many of them don't have a clue that there is even such a thing as idolatry in the LSM Church. We cannot paint them all with a broad brush. Can we draw a line in the sand and say that all who refuses to cross it are guilty of idolatry? In the Old Testament, yes. That’s the easy way. But not in the New. Such behavior does not reflect the heart of the true Shepherd. It's easy to do a study of idolatry in the Bible and blast everyone with it. It's not easy to shepherd the Lord's sheep. Roger |
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08-27-2008, 04:27 AM
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#544 | |
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What makes you think that there are many who do not bow their knee to idols? One of the reasons I ask this is because the OT shows us that there were only 7000 individuals who did not bow their knee to Baal in the Northern Kingdom at the time of Elijah. This was a very small number of the total residents in the Northern Kingdom. (Note: there are other reasons too). Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery". In some cases, they are stuck their out of fear, but it is fear that they are leaving the "highest thing of God". We know that God is working all over the place and that this fear is not real. We know that the Lord is worthy and able to take care of each one of us, no matter what group we meet with, but many in the LC believe that they must remain anchored to the LC group for their protection. This is another implicit evidence of the presence of idolatry. I believe many are relying on the wrong thing and this has drawn them into a wrong relationship with God. They are required to revere Lee too highly for the sake of the ministry (aka Recovery) and this is idolatry. This issue of reliance applies to me too, but not in a religious context. I don't exclude myself. I'm not better. I'm subject to the same issues and I have stumbled at times. Even when I do it ignorantly it does not provide an exclusion for me. A lot of Levitical law was setup to make provision for sins done in ignorance. God didn't make exclusions for sins done in ignorance. He made provision for them. I do understand where you are coming from, but I think we should be clear on this issue. It's not for the purpose of beating up or condemnation. It's for the sake of light and hope. Let's listen to Paul again on a few things... Let's see his mindset. 2Co 7:8-10 For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. 2Ti 2:25-26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; (26) And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Sure, you can accuse me of lacking meekness here, but I don't think it will completely stick. After pausing for a few days, I have resumed my mode of making appeals on this matter. I am not condemning. I am putting important things on the table for close inspection. I am working to persuade by means of scripture and willing to accept that I may not have the best way to do it. If you can help, rather than just resist the idea of it, then please show me how to present it more meekly. So far, I am seeing denial. It is denial that is partly based on a sincere belief that 'idolatry' does not apply at the level that I seem to be saying that it does. However, it is also denial that may be partly based on an unwillingness to acknowledge the underlying truth of the matter. I'm not judging either way on this last point regarding the reasons that others don't think 'idolatry' is as prevalent. I do not know. However, I am going to continue to bring more scripture to bear on the subject and try to discuss it with everyone as things come up. I'm doing this for the sake of the truth and not for the sake of being right or wrong. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-27-2008 at 04:36 AM. |
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08-27-2008, 06:26 AM
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#545 |
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It's not about right and wrong it's about life!
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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08-27-2008, 08:24 AM
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I Have Finished My Course
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Location: Avon, OH
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I have been searching my heart, as well as my observational memory, in taking the assessment of idolatry in the LC seriously.
I must say I am conflicted in my conclusion. I want to say that I agree with Matt that "Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on." I will say first, that I recognized this in the LC and have since struggled with this in other "mainstream" groups. I have continually wrestled with it internally as well as in what I have observed in those around me - both in the LC and in other groups. This definition of idolatry catches us all in its net. And I think rightly so. I think this was the spirit of Christ's speaking in Matthew 5, to ensure that none of us felt we could live up to the law simply because its terms were so black-and-white. Idolatry seems to me to be one of the most insidious of the sins which the law speaks to. If you look at all the other commandments, its pretty obvious that we've violated them if we get pinned down on our actions. Idolatry, however, is not so clear to us. Why? Because, it seems, that idolizing something is so often done in the service of our "faith". We do it because we think it is what we should do. We perceive our faith to be "better" because of the presence of the idol (though we don't recognize it as such). Each and every one of us (with LC backgrounds or not), should be in a constant struggle to guard against the enticing of idols - because it is so easy for something other than God to become that thing we rely on and turn to. This matter should convict us all. But this broad definition of idolatry, it seems to me, is not exactly what's being discussed here. Because, in the LC, there was a much clearer potential idol than the subtle type ones which entice every Christian every day: Witness Lee and "the ministry." Even "the recovery." So it is not the weak claim being made here - i.e. that every Christian, including those in the LC, allow subtle idols into their hearts, which replace their reliance on God. Rather, it is the strong claim being made her, it seems, that everyone in the LC made Witness Lee and "the ministry" their "idol" - which they placed higher, in a conscious and systematic way, than God. In regards to this strong claim, my conclusion is mixed. I can say that I saw much more of this type behavior when I lived in Southern California. And I can't remember much if any of this sort of behavior growing up in Cleveland. Admittedly, I lived in Cleveland primarily as a young person and thus am not as experientially knowledgable to speak with authority on this. But it also did not characterize all of the saints in So. Cal. I was not raised on "Truth Lessons" etc... in Cleveland And I was not raised on Witness Lee. The bible studies we had in high school were Word-centered, and we were specifically instructed not to consult the footnotes in the process of our study. The leading ones recognized that we were getting "killed" with "truth" (read: ministry) in the SSOT - which was coined the "summer school of death." The re-focus of those summer schools was to center on the person of Jesus in our lives and hearts. The first two years I lived in Anaheim, there were a number of college age kids living in Anaheim and not in school - just working. They weren't on a campus, part of the FTTA "work." Many of these kids had grown up in the LC - some had even grown up in LSM, and still others were even kids of BBs. We all started gathering together on a regular but informal basis. We dove into the Word. We were aware of and concerned with everything in one-another's lives - including "non-spiritual" matters. Some of us were re-finding our faith. Some had never really lost it, nor had they every really been serious about it. We loved one another and cared for the spiritual and human growth of one antoher - and we weren't sure there was a distinction. We were rough around the edges, but falling in love with Christ. I remember specific and very lengthy discussion on the "primacy of Witness Lee" and the uniqueness of "the recovery" etc... There was no insistence among us. In fact, I think the mutual understanding among us, as articulated by one son of an LSM editor was that: "The recovery is a way, not the way." Now, we weren't separated from the "church in Anaheim" nor the "So. Cal young people's work". We met with Anaheim (some more than others) and attended all the college Mountain Retreat conferences at Big Bear (since we were the only "group" that weren't at the conferences as representing a campus work, we called ourselves "the University of Anaheim" :-)). Many helped work on Grace Gardens or worked part time in LSM. There were some that believed Witness Lee's particular ministry was unique, but it rarely, if ever, manifested in a way that curtailed mutual care and/or rigorous study of the Word itself. Yet even in this context, what characterized our interactions was not "the ministry" or Witness Lee - but a struggle to find Christ as our center. Not by the process of "eating" and ingesting, but in concrete ways in our lives. So many of us were broken and freshly awakened to our Savior. We wanted to live together with the Lord in all we did - not just in "spiritual" matters. And we cared for one another in this way as well. This is just a snippet of my experience - in the GLA as well as in Anaheim among those in my generation (I'm 30 years old). There is much more. I offer these experiences to be somewhat of a counter-point to the claim of idolatry. And it is definately presented as a counter-point to Nell's question: "How can anyone remain in the LC without worshipping the idol? Is that possible?" That said, eventually our little "lively group" in Anaheim became more well-known and was looked at as a "positive example." Once it was recognized as such, we started having full-timers and more "shepherds" at our meetings. I think a few FTTA folks were actually designated to meet with us. Without commenting on why, I lost a taste for meeting formally at that point - though many of us still continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings as we had been doing. To be clear, there is no denial here of the presence of idols and the subversion of our reliance on God alone. I have repented of this and I have noted it's existence even in systematic form in the LC. But I want to offer these experiences for the sake of a full picture and making sure the "gray" doesn't turn "black" when it shouldn't. Thanks for indulging. Peter
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I Have Finished My Course Last edited by Peter Debelak; 08-27-2008 at 09:05 AM. |
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08-27-2008, 09:07 AM
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#547 | |
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Location: USA
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As usual, you state your case well. I understand what you are saying. Generally, it seems, however, that one could make the case that restricting someone's liberty in Christ can be seen a kind of forced idolatry. Once someone says "Obey me rather than your own conscience," then he is effectively saying, "You should view me as above your conception of God." Of course, like most things this can be taken to extremes, as when your child pleads "God told me to eat the last donut." |
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08-27-2008, 09:11 AM
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#548 |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Dear Roger,
I hear where you are coming from somewhat. You seemed to be concerned about current LCers and how this topic fits them or how they would receive it. You view the strength of this discussion as blasting everyone. I personally don’t think that is what is happening here, though I understand your concern. Clearly the topic of idolatry is not something with which to blast current LCers. I’m in agreement with you on this. Maybe you are concerned about LCers who are coming here and reading this discussion? If so, I would say that is beyond our control. It's their choice to be here. This is a complex topic and it is made more complicated by our various reactions to it. (We all have feelings about this based on our own situations.) I don't know if this will help anyone or not, but I am trying to be more objective about the topic (trying, I said..). I am looking at it from four sides: 1) the truth – what is idolatry as shown by God in the Bible 2) its application to me – how does it apply to me in the present and how did it apply in the past? 3) its application to the LC system as a whole- what characteristics of the LC system are clearly idolatrous 4) its application to others I care about – how can I use this understanding to help others I love that are in bondage find freedom? If I tangle these 4 up in my head, it becomes difficult to discuss. For now, I'm spending most of my time looking at 1-3. I'm trying to keep my feelings about the topic in check! (again I said trying .... )Thankful Jane |
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08-27-2008, 09:22 AM
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#549 | ||
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You changed the parameters of the program! If I read you correctly, you all were having a good time until the FTTA shepherds came along. Then you "lost a taste for meeting 'formally'" and "continued to care for one another in non-meeting settings...". So you changed the standard operating procedure. When the FTTA shepherds came in and began replacing the leading of the Holy Spirit, you turned from this idol and began to fly under the radar. Is that accurate? I'll rephrase: How can you remain in the LC without worshipping the idol unless you change the SOP? I'll concede that this may be possible. Nell |
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08-27-2008, 09:23 AM
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#550 |
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I think we are beginning to get somewhere. From what I’ve been reading, few, if any, have said that idolatry does not exist, or is not applicable just as it has been mentioned. But it is like one of those ailments that doctors, with a lot of tests, can determine to actually be one of a shopping list of actual diagnoses but until those tests are run and the ultimate diagnosis is made, has some generic name. The generic name is not unimportant, but it is not always as helpful as you would presume. I believe that colitis is one of those. It describes the overall effect of the actual illness, but does not help arrive at a cure. Determination of the actual illness is required.
Similarly, idolatry is a general term. That does not mean that it is meaningless. In its purest form, it speaks clearly of a willful act of giving worship to another god, or more accurately, a god that is not a true god, and is not God. There is really no alternative way to deal with this. The idolater is worshipping another god. But in the broader sense, it sweeps in a host of separate offenses that result from our hearts being drawn to other things. But those offenses stand on their own without also being clearly or even obliquely identified as idolatry. When we willfully sin, we have clearly turned our hearts from God. That is, by definition, lowering God’s status in our hearts. So in the broader sense of the term, every sin involves idolatry. So, if every sin is idolatry, why isn’t every call for repentance put in terms of turning from idolatry? A few put it in the mix in relation to certain things, but not as an umbrella under which all sins could be found. How many in the LC qualify as “the rest” and are not engaged in idol worship (in the narrow sense of idolizing Lee)? Probably a lot. Maybe most of the rank and file. There are many who have followed a way and teachings because they did not recognize the talented orator (even in a less familiar language) as he turned “do” into “do not,” and “do not” into “do;” result into cause, and cause into result; descriptions into prescriptions; righteousness into an unnecessary thing. They do not do it because they adore Lee. They do it because his speaking leads to the conclusion he wants, and they cannot decipher the difference. “People don't drink the sand because they're thirsty. They drink the sand because they don't know the difference.” While that line from a movie (that will remain unnamed) is talking about a very different subject, it is appropriate to this discussion. Many in the LC have not decided to drink sand because they have decided it is better than water. They are drinking sand because they have been convinced that it is water. They believe the rhetoric that what they follow is truly God’s heart. They accept that there will be problems along the way. They know that there is an enemy. They continue to stand for what they have come to believe God wants. You need to attack the core of the beliefs. Attack it as apologetics. Attack it as bad fruit. Put 12 baskets full in front of them. This thread started as an opportunity to demonstrate the baskets full of bad fruit. To look at the things that were done wrong that lead to that bad fruit. But we have turned to labels. And by turning to those labels, we have put the whole problem effectively on the leadership and not on the individual. Why? Because it is quite difficult to say that every LC member who has had a child end out in serious sin, or who failed in marriage, was guilty of idolatry unless you broaden the term to such an extent that you and I get swept in right now in our current conditions. Sometimes labels are relevant. But not necessarily helpful. When you attack everything as idolatry, the ears will shut. It is a waste of time. You may feel better because it now has a direct link to the original 10. But we have missed the real points. The real error. An unfortunately, we cannot lay all of the failures of the LC second generation at the feet of Lee, the BBs, the local elders, or the LC. Even where you can make a case, there is more to it than the LC. This broad brush does not increase the responsibility of the LC and its teachings in the errors of the children. It is what it is and discovering some link to idolatry did not solve anything. It merely added a potential second cause for each already existing error.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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08-27-2008, 09:27 AM
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#551 |
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Warning from the Old Testament
Dear Posters,
Since this is the discussion about Spiritual Abuse and has been filled with many charges, I would like to introduce a few key passages for consideration. I asked the following question regarding sharing issues that counterbalanced pure spiritual abuse, “By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at … A poster replied, "No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family. Child molestation, wow!!! In parallel thinking, it also would seem that one bad family is enough to label the whole bunch. Therefore should all memory of anything of Christ be obliterated? Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area? I have not failed to point out flaws in Witness Lee, the local churches, the Living Stream Ministry and the Blended Brothers. If I continue to write my history, more will be forth coming. But here is a warning from the Old Testament for out consideration. Jerusalem was defeated because of their idolatry and unfaithfulness. Jeremiah prophesied that it would happen but when it did he wept over the city and the people. On the other hand, the nation of Edom gloated and wanted to destroy it to its foundation and eliminate all memory of Jerusalem. God’s judgment of His people is for their restoration not for their utter destruction. Note in the following passage that Babylon went too far in carrying out the Lord’s judgment on Jerusalem. Psalms 137:7-9, Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom the day of Jerusalem, who said, "Raze it, raze it, to its very foundation." O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, how blessed will be the one who repays you with the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock. Lam 4:21-22, Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, who dwells in the land of Uz; but the cup will come around to you as well, you will become drunk and make yourself naked. The punishment of your iniquity has been completed, O daughter of Zion; He will exile you no longer. But He will punish your iniquity, O daughter of Edom; He will expose your sins! Ezek 25:12-14, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Edom has acted against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and has incurred grievous guilt, and avenged themselves upon them," therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also stretch out My hand against Edom and cut off man and beast from it. And I will lay it waste; from Teman even to Dedan they will fall by the sword. "And I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD. Obad. 10-14, "Because of violence to your brother Jacob,You will be covered with shame, and you will be cut off forever. On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth,And foreigners entered his gate And cast lots for Jerusalem — You too were as one of them. Do not gloat over your brother's day, the day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress. "Do not enter the gate of My people in the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity in the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth in the day of their disaster. And do not stand at the fork of the road to cut down their fugitives; and do not imprison their survivors in the day of their distress. “ We all should have some Godly fear. Yes, it does cut both ways. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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08-27-2008, 09:40 AM
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#552 |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Concerning how this topic applied to me in the past, I asked myself, “Was I ever in idolatry while I was in the LC?” A few years ago, I might have answered, “No,” but after spending more time in the Bible considering what idolatry is and the evidences of it, I now have to say, “Yes. I was an idolater.” Here are the reasons:
1. I was terribly afraid that I would offend God if I left the LC. I was controlled by my loyalty to the vision of the LC and WL’s ministry—a false belief controlled my behavior and bound me there (evidence of idolatry). If I had been serving the Lord alone, His love would have cast out fear and I would have had the freedom to stay or go as I chose. 2. I preferred leavened words over the Word of God (evidence of idolatry). I let Lee’s words govern my whole thought about the Bible. Every where I read I could only see it through his template (the line of life, the line of building, etc.) I had given up reading it to see what it said on its own. I believed I couldn't get anymore from it than what Lee saw. I was dependent on his interpretation. “What did Brother Lee say about this?” Whatever he said I believed, even if the Bible seemed to say differently....(after all sisters could not get revelation.) (Eventually I heard that only the apostle could get revelation, but I had left by then.) I put Lee’s leavened words in a higher place than God’s pure Word. The Bible tells me to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God, not leavened words out of the mouth of others. I was not eating unleavened bread, as the Bible tells me to do (the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth). 3. I fully/absolutely submitted to leaders who convinced me they were God’s deputy authorities (evidence of being in an idolatrous system). I didn’t need to ask God because he would say the same thing as the leaders. I believed it was wrong to follow God as an individual. I needed to follow the Body and listen to the members. 4. As for how I spent my time, which shows what I loved first, the LC meetings and service got top priority (evidence of idolatry). My family was sacrificed. My husband’s and children’s needs came after the needs of the church. This was clearly in violation of the Word. I have a vivid memory of thinking one night that the Lord wanted me to stay home with my children and miss the meeting. However, instead of hearing His voice (“the words I speak to you”), I applied one of Lee’s speakings of his leavened teachings about not loving my children more than the church and dismissed this speakng as my “self” and went to the meeting. Both of my children suffered longterm effects of my longterm neglect (sacrificing children is evidence of idolatry). All of these are clear evidences of my idolatry while in the LC. I am happy to report that after a long period of treatment with some pretty intense rehabilitative therapy by the great physician, I am doing well. 1) I have no more fear and am free to choose to follow the Lord wherever He leads. 2) I love the pure word of the Bible above all else. 3) I only have one Master and His name is Jesus. 4) My children have forgiven me and been able to find healing from the Lord and are walking with him today. I can never make up for the time I stole from them as children, but I’m trying. Concerning the harm done to my children by my idolatry, this was the hardest area. It has required a thorough repentance to them (not just “I’m sorry,” but a complete acknowledgement of my sin against them and turnaround in my behavior).Idolatry and its resultant bondage is a big deal. It's a big deal to God: He wants a walk with us as free individuals. It's a big deal to the devil: It's his M.O. He doesn’t want us to understand how he works secretly among God’s people to snare them and bring them into bondage to him by mixing in his things with the things of God. He will not give up that ground without a fight. It’s now also a really big deal to me: I have seen in my own life that when idols are smashed, God begins to show Himself mighty to save and set captives free. I think I may need to put a reminder on my calendar to have a regular complete spiritual checkup with Dr. Jesus, requesting Him to run special diagnostic tests in the idols in my heart department. He’s the great spiritual cardiologist before whose eyes all things are naked and opened. I may not see my heart's diseases, but He does and is able to save me to the uttermost. Thankful Jane |
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08-27-2008, 09:44 AM
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#553 |
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Excellent point and corresponding verses, Hope.
SC |
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08-27-2008, 10:57 AM
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#554 | |
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Location: Texas
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It looks like the ears have it!  Nell |
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08-27-2008, 11:49 AM
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Location: USA
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There is nothing wrong with trying to balance a point by injecting something positive. There is something wrong with trying to avoid a point by injecting something positive. |
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08-27-2008, 12:17 PM
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#556 | |
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Nell |
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08-27-2008, 12:55 PM
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#557 | |
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We are going one step beyond the general applicability of idolatry to everyone and pointing towards a system of idolatry that was constructed and implemented that has brought quite a few into a unique and painful form of bondage to a stronger form of idolatry.In fact, let me summarize it this way. The entire Northern Kingdom of Israel was so steeped in idolatry that the Lord says this: Hos 4:15-19 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Beth-aven, nor swear, The LORD liveth. (16) For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place. (17) Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone. (18) Their drink is sour: they have committed whoredom continually: her rulers with shame do love, Give ye. (19) The wind hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices. Note: "Israel" here is only the Northern Kingdom and "Ephraim" is synonomous with Israel in this context with an additional pointer towards the responsible leadership of the Northern Kingdom. "Judah" is the Southern Kingdom. Judah was not a great deal better off, but they were preserved for the sake of the Lord and His servant David. The Northern Kingdom has a special applicability to us and so my use of them as the typological example is in line with the intent and substance of the Word. If you will notice in my posts, I've painted myself into the picture of idolatry and not out of it. Why? Because God painted me into it. I don't condemn myself, nor do I condemn others, but I do condemn my own idolatry. Thank God that He is merciful and full of lovingkindness for me! Matt P.S. I have a more thorough response to Hope. His verses have introduced a logical error from a typological point of view. His warning is valid, but only under some key assumptions about the context which I will point out (probably this evening). Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-27-2008 at 01:01 PM. |
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08-27-2008, 12:57 PM
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#558 | |
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Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,382
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I’m not discounting that people see the words. I’m not even discounting the significance of the actual number of people who have observed, whether it was in the earliest days when we were discussing the bad fruit, or subsequently when we began trying to prove through faulty logic that Don was full of wind and beer, or after that was shown to be a fallacy, when the idolatry thing came up. But what gets through the gatekeeper of the mind is not identified by “hits” on a thread. The hits have been on this thread because for a few days it virtually took over the activity of the part of the 23 that were actually posting. The rest of the forum went silent. So if you were someone who occasionally came to this forum to see what was going on, the only significant activity is here, so you looked. What did you see? A few people broad-brushing the entirety of the LC as idolatrous and saying that was the reason that any of the second generation of the LC was less than perfect. Even if there was some basis for a charge of idolatry in some circumstances, by getting out a large crew with spray paint guns to cover the whole of LC existence even the legitimate cases get ignored as they laugh their way back to “afaithfulword.org.” The point is not how many see the words. It is the number that will have ears to hear. And if what we are saying is too obtuse, they won't even consider them as worthy of "hearing." This particular rabbit trail has wasted the energies of several very good resources in the efforts to make meaningful dialog concerning the LC that might have a hope of making a difference. You are among that group. Very good discussions could be engaged concerning the various writings of Nigel or others that keep putting weight of evidence after weight of evidence that there is something systemically wrong with the LC. Or engage in one of the Apologetics discussions where Lee’s teachings are stacked up against scripture.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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08-27-2008, 01:00 PM
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#559 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Yes, we did change the parameters. But we didn't leave (at least not then, and there are many who still haven't). We found a way to seek Christ first, even while fully connected and in the LC, even if not governed by LC norms and system. And I am hestitant to say that when the full-timers or others came in to shepherd, they replaced the Holy Spirit. Their motives were undoubtedly out of love and nurturing. But there was something so subtlely present that I felt took away the freshness and purity of just seeking Christ in His word. In fact, at the time, I was upset. Bitter. I made a lot of the strong claims about idolatry. In the subsequent years, As I met less and less in any formal way, I made many pronouncements (to myself and others) concerning what I saw as a subtle usurpation of individual accountability to the Lord and a subtle demotion of Christ alone. Believe me, I am not denying these things. I have just come full cycle in some respects. I believe there are some, perhaps many, when are "in" the system, but don't operate based on it. They are exposed to Witness Lee, appreciate Witness Lee, but do not rely on Witness Lee instead of God. I do believe these were "the rest" who did not worship Baal, despite being in a group of folks who did. I can't say that I had a lot of the experience that Jane describes in her recollection of her idolatry, at least not at the time I was in the LC. From the time I returned to the Lord, I was vigalent not to hand over my accountability to others, vigalent to follow my conscience (even though I often faultered) and vigalent ot study the Word itself. However, after I stopped meeting, there was a lot of fear, such as Jane describes: "I was terribly afraid that I would offend God if I left the LC. I was controlled by my loyalty to the vision of the LC and WL’s ministry—a false belief controlled my behavior and bound me there (evidence of idolatry). If I had been serving the Lord alone, His love would have cast out fear and I would have had the freedom to stay or go as I chose." I guess I was not afraid to leave - since I didn't go back and forth about leaving - but I was fearful once I already left. I did not see the truth of deputy authority in the Word. I was clear about that. But I also had the ingrained thought in my head that sometimes there are some things you submit to whether you understand them or not. I feared that I had violated God's government. But the thing was, the Lord never made it clear to me that I had. I could not see it in the Word and He did not convict me of this. Eventually, I had to rebuke Satan for his lies. If I had apparently done something so aggregious - had asked and plead with the Lord to reveal it to me in His word and in my heart - and I still couldn't see it - then my fears were unhealthy and lies. Well, I've carried on again. I have to learn to be more cogent. SC, and tips on concise writing? Peter
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08-27-2008, 01:04 PM
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I'm so sorry that all you are seeing denial. If so, then you are terribly in need of enlightenment. Check my posts. I didn't deny that that there is idolatry in the Living Stream Church. Matt, nobody is trying to stop you from doing anything. Nobody CAN stop you from doing anything. I've stated my last on the subject. Please carry on. Roger |
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08-27-2008, 01:13 PM
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#561 | |
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At this point, other than to look back at my most recent post (to Nell), there is not much left to say except "whatever." This is a witch hunt. Some claim of finding an underlying thread of idolatry is nothing short of a witch hunt. The verse you quoted says nothing to support the current efforts. If anything, it would seem to be an effort to take the misdeeds of some who may have honestly been involved in idolatry and paint everyone else with it. And if you say you have painted yourself into it, then why worry about the LC? You've got more important things to deal with than worrying about the LC's idolatry if you have it yourself. Starting a bonfire for them does not reduce your sin. Don't misunderstand. I am not saying you are sinning. But if the level of idolatry that we have to move down to is so broad that we all are included, then why point a finger at anyone else? There has to be some less general definition at which we stop. Once we return toward the basic standard, then it cannot simply be broadcast onto everyone in the LC. Stick with one definition for all purposes. Otherwise it is equivocation. As I told Nell, you are wasting your very worthwhile energies on this thread, at least as it is currently headed. You have not been a participant anywhere else lately. This discussion is taking on more heat from the rest of us "outsiders" than it is from the LC faithful, not that many of them actually participate here. It looks as if about three or four people are determined to have this hearing despite almost everyone else calling it into question. Doesn't that say something?
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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08-27-2008, 01:20 PM
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#562 | |
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08-27-2008, 01:21 PM
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#563 |
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I Have Finished My Course
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Location: Avon, OH
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I agree with the concern expressed here over defining the scope of the definition of idolatry. As I mentioned in a previous post, there can be a weak claim and a strong claim of idolatry as it pertained to the LC - and its imporant to be clear about which claim is being made here (so far, it has gone back and forth):
Idolatry seems to me to be one of the most insidious of the sins which the law speaks to. If you look at all the other commandments, its pretty obvious that we've violated them if we get pinned down on our actions. Idolatry, however, is not so clear to us. Why? Because, it seems, that idolizing something is so often done in the service of our "faith". We do it because we think it is what we should do. We perceive our faith to be "better" because of the presence of the idol (though we don't recognize it as such). Each and every one of us (with LC backgrounds or not), should be in a constant struggle to guard against the enticing of idols - because it is so easy for something other than God to become that thing we rely on and turn to. This matter should convict us all. But this broad definition of idolatry, it seems to me, is not exactly what's being discussed here. Because, in the LC, there was a much clearer potential idol than the subtle type ones which entice every Christian every day: Witness Lee and "the ministry." Even "the recovery." So it is not the weak claim being made here - i.e. that every Christian, including those in the LC, allow subtle idols into their hearts, which replace their reliance on God. Rather, it is the strong claim being made her, it seems, that everyone in the LC made Witness Lee and "the ministry" their "idol" - which they placed higher, in a conscious and systematic way, than God. I think both the strong and weak claim are important to pursue, but it should be clear in each discussion which claim is being made - it can otherwise lead to confusion and unnecessary defensiveness. Peter
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08-27-2008, 01:30 PM
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Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important. Nell |
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08-27-2008, 02:20 PM
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08-27-2008, 02:43 PM
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#566 | |
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Difference???
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Hi Nell, My bad that I failed to point out that I added the bold type to high light the phrases on which I was commenting. I will do better next time. But other than a failure to acknowledge I was the one marking the bold text, what was the difference? What am I missing? Also I am curious and waiting for Matt to point out the mistake of using the passages about Edom as a warning against piling on when the Lord is judging His people. Frankly, many times I feel there is too much piling on. We all saw it in the lc done by WL in public meetings. I saw him pile on in private meetings. Some of us witnessed dear saints piled on in our own assembly and in private type fellowships. Why were John Ingalls and John So among others writhen out of the annals of the LC? They were attacked and others with whom they had fellowshiped were deemed worthy of being razed down to the foundation and any positive testimony or memory erased. I am so sad to say so but sometimes I witness right here a piling on and blanket dismissal toward anyone who does not join in 100% in judging 100% everyone and everything from the LC, LSM past. I am also in tune with OBW as to the lack of value of broad sweeping generalizations of judgments. Furthermore, I am not seeing any balancing appeals to mercy. It seems that the Lord almost always tempered justice and judgment with mercy. Here are a few verses. (Please do not just write me off as trying to dodge or deflect personal responsibility or accountability.) I believe we are all responsible to judge righteously and to show mercy. Matt 5:7, Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. James 2:13, For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. James 3:17-18, But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. NASB Nell, I appreciate any call to honor proper context. Good Job. Context and correct details should be important to me and I hope they are. This helps me stay accurate and minimize any personal agenda. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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08-27-2008, 02:51 PM
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#567 |
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Location: USA
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Matt,
I really think you need to consider researching and writing a formal paper explaining from top to bottom, front to back, your beliefs about idolatry in the LCs. And I think you would do well do submit such a paper for review by a trained theologian. I just think the format here make everything come out too piecemeal to be appreciated. I'm serious. This is obviously something you feel very strongly about and it seems to be too broad in scope to fit into this forum in a way people can get their heads around. It seems to not be getting traction and I think the reason is that it requires a lot of things to be defined, it requires a lot of pretext, before the main point can be appreciated. It could be a book actually, I think. Igzy |
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08-27-2008, 03:04 PM
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#568 | |
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Quote:
Here's how I do it. I write till I'm done then go back and cut out all the stupid stuff, all the offensive stuff, and all the dumb illustrations and ponderous metaphors. That cuts out about 80%. This post, to illustrate, was originally 5,000 words in length. SC |
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08-27-2008, 03:05 PM
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#569 |
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But really how complicated is it? Do some in the LCS idolize Lee? Clearly yes. Do all in the LCS idolize Lee? Probably not. I think this is merely stating the obvious.
The issue some have legitimately raised on this thread is that when discussing abuse let's stay focused on that instead of saying: "Yes there was abuse but here are 10 positive things to counterbalance it." There are loads of LCS sites advertising all the positive aspects of their church while hiding the negative. I started this thread to explore what, if any, influence the LCS had on social problems among their members. I think the rampant Lee hero worshiping is one thing that surely influenced people negatively so the discussion of idolatry does have a place here but...obsessing over it? Not so much!
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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08-27-2008, 03:40 PM
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#570 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Are you suggesting that this was the motivation behind what I wrote? Thankful Jane |
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08-27-2008, 03:44 PM
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#571 | ||
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Admin/Moderator
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Quote:
 Don't you think the visual of 15,912 ears is kinda' funny?Quote:
If we want to discuss idolatry in the LC on this forum, what is that to you? If you choose not to join the discussion, that is your liberty. If there is no interest in a topic, it will drop to the bottom never to be seen again. That hasn't happened on this thread. Let those of us who are posting and/or viewing be persuaded by Him as to whether we come or go. That's not your job. There are plenty of threads, and those who are interested will find what they want to read. Let them. If some are interested in this thread, so be it. You're trying to censor what others read by shutting down this discussion. The LC leadership censors what their membership reads. What's the difference? There is no heirarchy on this forum. Be at peace, Mike, and let Him do his job. He is able. Nell |
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08-27-2008, 04:39 PM
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#572 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-27-2008, 04:42 PM
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#573 | |
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Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-27-2008, 04:46 PM
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#574 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-27-2008, 05:54 PM
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,793
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Quote:
while I think I know where you are coming from, and your points here are well taken (by me at least  ) I would say that Matt has a right to post in a manner that he thinks will get his point across. Some posters like to keep it short (thank you Ohio ) while some others like to stretch things out a bit. This thread is only about two weeks old, and it IS a very important topic, so I don't see the problem in giving Matt and some others a little more time to develop their points to maturity. Like Nell said, nobody is forced to participate (or even read for that matter), and there are LOTS of other boards with all sorts of juicy topics to delve into. I bet Mr. KSA is cooling his jets right at this very moment, waiting for some of us to come back and reenter some of the interesting topics over there on the apologetics boards. This is one of the big reasons that the software and website was purchased and set up the way it has been...so that people can have choices and enter into discussions which interest and affect them the most. Certain topics may not interest them, or maybe a certain topic just gets their blood boiling too much to make it worth it. Hey...no problemo!...just mosey on over to one of the other boards and "get yur post on" saints. I am NOT asking that any particular person not post on any particular board. Just don't make it your life's work to attempt to "counter" and/or "balance" everything that is posted. Address the issues at hand. Address the issue with the Word of God and with your practical experience. I think Peter D did a rather nice job of this a little earlier. He refuted and rebutted with some real practical experiences. (I think he used some verses too). Of course, some of us oldies but goodies are probably going to hit him back with some refutations and rebutting of our own...but this is what a discussion forum is all about! |
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08-27-2008, 06:23 PM
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#576 |
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Location: USA
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Dear Admin,
I have no problem with what you are saying. I was simply trying to make a suggestion to Matt which, quite honestly, I hope he will consider. Not that I want him to not post about this subject here, but that I want his ideas to have the best chance of making sense to people. Right now I think those ideas are struggling a bit. Igzy |
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08-27-2008, 06:46 PM
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#577 |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Last night Roger said:
"We cannot paint them all with a broad brush." This morning Matt said: "Idolatry is not about completely abandoning God. It's about who you rely on. Do you really think there are many in the LC who are relying totally on God or have they been led astray to relying on the "Minister of the Age" and their membership in the "Recovery"." Peter said: "I was not raised on "Truth Lessons" etc... in Cleveland And I was not raised on Witness Lee. The bible studies we had in high school were Word-centered, " Matt, I do understand what you're saying, but I do agree with what Roger said; you cannot paint everyone with a broad brush. I can totally relate to Peter. I was not raised on Witness Lee and I was not raised on Watchman Nee. Living in Alburquerque (73-75) and later in Anaheim (76-79), Witness Lee and Watchman Nee were just authors of books my parents had on their bookshelf. I didn't know the correlation between the books and the local church until I was in junior high. Even attending conferences listening to Witness Lee speak was no big deal. He was just a different brother speaking than I had been used to. In high school, when the SSOT started in 84, the focus was on the New Testament. Primarily in the Book of Romans. In the Young People's Conference, the brother who took care of the high school brothers from my locality encouraged and challenged us to read the Bible clear through from Genesis to Revelation. I believe the points Matt was making is directed at the minority rather than the majority. Those that appear to be relying on what Witness Lee said or didn't say, need to be cared for. These ones need to be taken care of in a simple way. The ministry is a tool to help people know the Lord. The ministry of Witness Lee is not meant to replace ones faith, nor to become a crutch in their personal relationship with the Lord. Sure in the local churches many have an appreciation for Witness Lee's portion, but do they idolize him? The majority does not. Just to provide a concluding word, when I was at the West Coast Conference this past July, a brother spoke a word of appreciation for brother Kaung. Just as with Witness Lee, one could easily lift up Stephen Kaung without knowing how it might effect other believers. When we assemble, sure we can appreciate certain ministries privately, but there's only one whose name needs to be lifted up and that's Jesus Christ. |
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08-27-2008, 08:23 PM
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#578 | |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,793
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Quote:
Ok, I just got to review Terry's post here. Here's the deal folks, from my perspective. I go back a ways - just about three and one half decades. I lived in "brother's houses" with more then one of the "blended brothers" before they were married, and before they were even a prominent member. I have also lived with and "mingled" with hundreds upon hundreds of us run-of-the-mill, average saints, including all you guys out there reading this post right now. I know that there is a terrible dark thread that runs through the whole thing. Sorry to be so blunt. The terrible dark thread is indeed idolatry. Idolatry of a man, a mere creation of God. There was (is) idolatry of a man's personal ministry. There was (is) idolatry of a "vision". Yes, "without a vision the people parish"...but I tell you before God right now, what good is a vision if it causes those who follow it to parish after all, and then take their family and loved ones down with them? The Local Church that many of the younger ones here speak of is a Local Church that I do not know. Nor is it a Local Church that is reflected in the writing and speaking of the current leadership. This leads me to believe that things did not “get better” after I left. The current publications and speaking at the trainings and conferences reflect a people - a movement, that is still, to a great degree, idolizing a man and his ministry. They have replaced the Creator and His Word with a mere creation and the words that come out of the mouth of this creation. This is where the rubber meets the road as far as idolatry in the Local Church is concerned. Do we love and fear man and his words more then we love and fear God and His Word? Sorry to say, when the holy cry came: “Chose you this day whom ye will serve!” many of us failed the test. I dare not say most, but I know it was many. For sure we know that those who have taken the lead in the Local Church can be counted among the many. So, we know for sure that there was idolatry in the past, and we know for sure that there is idolatry now. To deny that there was significant idolatry in the middle defies all logic and reason, I’m afraid. The moral of the story is that our sacred cow does not necessarily look like a golden calf, and even if it did, we would never admit that it is our sacred cow anyway.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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08-27-2008, 10:25 PM
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#579 |
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It may be that it is the subject of idolatry that needs its own thread, so that those of us who want to discuss abuse can do so without being burdened down by tons and tons of lengthy and convoluted posts.
Frankly, I think the book idea is a good one. Roger |
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08-27-2008, 10:27 PM
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#580 |
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I have been busy so just now catching up since Monday AM. Interestingly, the subject has not changed. I enjoy reading every member's posts even if
 comes to mind. Someone in the last week may have mentioned this, but I attributed the abuses to false teachings. According to my experience, it fits as a root cause more than idolatry. My healing and freedom from the false teachings came through the pure Word (no footnotes needed) and support from my true friends (you know who you are).
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08-28-2008, 03:37 AM
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#581 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Quote:
While I tend to avoid all doctors and hospitals like the plague (people die there!), my wife spends much more time with them and has this chief complaint about the medical profession -- "they don't listen to me, they think they already know what's wrong with me, especially these young doctors right out of school." I'm starting to understand how she feels. Repeatedly posters try to explain our symptoms. We say, "no it's not a cult, but occasionally it kind of felt like that." You can tell the "doctor" is still not listening. He has some long fancy title like "apologetics." He has already made up his mind -- I believe you have a bad case of "idolatry." No, I don't think so, doctor, I grew up with that, and this is really different. Explain to me again what "idolatry" looks like. Well, if that's true, then everyone I know has got it too. All mankind is sick with it. Now ... when people ask how I'm doing, I just tell them "I'm fine, just gettin' old, like the rest of us." I guess I'm in denial.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-28-2008, 05:10 AM
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#582 | |
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Posts: 152
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Quote:
My initial reaction to this thread and my decision to post here was based on a key fact. Hope was trying to exclude his locality from the rest of the Texas bunch. I stood up in opposition to this attempt. The reason I did is not because Dallas was the best or worst, but because it was part of a whole set of churches that were under the strong sway of an idolatrous system that was engineered and whose engineering started all the way back in the mid-60's. In taking this stance, it has swept everyone into the problem. No one gets away "clean". I realized that this would happen from the beginning. The objections have come from many directions because no one wants to be included in this grouping (idolatry), just like no one wants to be included in the label (cult). In the past, I was unable to tell others that I grew up in a Christian cult/sect. I've still gone back and forth on whether it was a cult or a sect, but one thing is sure. I've become comfortable with admitting that I grew up in an abberant christian group (whether you call it a cult or a sect). This is just a basic fact. It's not something you can move around. There is an effort by at least some to paint themselves out of this picture and into a prettier picture. Personally, I feel that this should be resisted because there are so many facts and so much anecdotal evidence that points the other way. Matt P.S. I do think I am going to open another thread and start introducing some things that are "background material" based primarily on the Word of God. These background materials form part of reason why I am pointing strongly at idolatry at this time. This could take me months to complete, but I've been encouraged by no less than 10-15 people to write a book on this subject. My response has always been the same. I don't have time, but the truth is that working one piece at a time I do have the time. The primary subject is not exactly "idolatry" but it ties in very heavily. P.S.S. I've started a TOC (table of contents) on this book about 2 or 3 times, but never finished. I may introduce a table of contents as a structure and go from there. But on another thread... Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 05:45 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 05:21 AM
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#583 | |
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God's warnings from OT cut in every direction
This my response to Hope's post about God's warning through Edom. I've got a busy day ahead, so you are free from me for the day!!!
Preface: No one that I am aware of on this forum (including djohnson) is jumping on Christ in the believers or attempting to discolor the reality of the Lord in any individual's life. No one is even close to that. What is happening is that the "collective" / "corporate" aspects of the LC are being strongly challenged and how association with the LC over time will bring an individual believer into a compromised state in their relationship to the Lord. If the believer tries to recover their right standing before the Lord, the only option is to leave the LC. You cannot maintain good conscience and a right relationship with the Lord and stay in the LC. This was true in the past and it's true presently. Hope's warning from the OT used Edom. Most know that Esau (father of the Edomites) is a type of the flesh. Galatians 5:13-26 establishes the opposition of the desires of the flesh and spirit. This is the same tension that existed between Jacob/Esau and Israel/Edom. Hope's warning based on Edom has validity, but it must be set in context. Edom is a type of the flesh and God will completely and utterly deal with the flesh. In type Edom's mockery and ridicule of the downfall of Judah is repugnant to God because it comes from the flesh. I don't think anyone is mocking or ridiculing Christ in us, Christ in others or even Christ in the LC and it's past. We are saying that idolatry was systematically introduced and mixed with the believers' experience of Christ. It was done in such a way that almost all were brought into idolatry within the LC from it's inception in the US. To make a fair comparison of Hope's example with Edom, this should be juxtaposed against a prophet of God who prophecies against Israel and/or Judah. They prophecy according to the Spirit of the Lord and there is no warning for them when they speak out against God's own. Is Hope saying that everything being said against the LC is just coming from the "flesh"? If not, how does Hope separate it out in his mind? As an estimate what percentage of what is being said is from the "flesh" versus what percentage is coming from some acting like the prophets? Jeremiah weeped because he saw the judgment coming on Judah and it broke his heart. This is from the Spirit of God. Edom mocked and ridiculed Judah when the judgment was coming. This was not from the Spirit of God, it was in the "flesh". (Note: I don't claim to be a prophet, nor do I claim to operate solely apart from the "flesh") What will we do if and when the LC is judged? Where is our heart? Notice I say, "if". I don't presume they will be in any way that is completely obvious from an outside viewpoint. If our words against the teachings and practices of the LC come from the "flesh" then we should integrate some Godly fear. If however, we speak more like the prophets attempting to remind a people whose ears have been closed, then we should fear not speaking more than we fear this warning from Hope. Consider what the Lord says to Ezekiel. This is a warning too. So, I conclude that warnings from God in the OT cut in every direction. Quote:
Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 05:30 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 05:28 AM
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#584 | |
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Question for Hope about "The Testimony"?
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If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the individual saints and the Lord in their lives, then there is absolutely no disagreement. However, If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the group as a collective, then it is quite another thing. We move closer to the heart of the problem and why I think there is still a thought being held that is wrong according to the Lord. I would like ask an open question to Hope under the assumption that part of what he is referring to is the "collective" / "corporate" aspect 1. What do you propose we should keep from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC? Let us see it and inspect it in the light of God's Word. Please be as specific as possible. This is a kind of challenge, but not because I am trying to cause you a problem. I really want to know what are the good things you are holding onto from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 05:39 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 05:34 AM
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#585 |
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Final Note
I really do understand the reactions to what I am saying. I get it. I also get the idea that a number of people don't like this and would prefer to just see it go away.
No one should change your mind if they cannot persuade you based on the Word of God and the Spirit shining light into your heart. So, I have little to no expectation that I will change anyone's mind who is convinced otherwise. Igzy is right there is a lot of base material that needs to be introduced and this topic is confusing, difficult and charged. Given these three (confusion, difficulty, and charged) and combining them with the fact that this is the most important thing to God from a "No-No" point of view I think we should endeavor to keep looking at it. Matt |
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08-28-2008, 05:57 AM
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#586 | |
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Posts: 181
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Quote:
Are you kidding? Even djohnson has recalled in the past some positive things that we gained from the "collective"/"corporate" experience of the Local Church. This is the problem with your approach. You come in with elbows flying, insisting upon drawing a line in the sand, as if you are an Old Testament prophet who's gotten THE word from on high. Please re-consider. I know my words may be futile here because you have the favor of the administration. But please consider beginning a whole new thread on this matter of idolatry. Please don't insist that all of the abuse in the Living Stream Church has to be summed up in the one word, "idolatry." Some of us have slightly different point of views, and some of us have other aspects of abuse that we would like to discuss. If every time we come here to do so, we have to wade through volumes of lengthy posts, on the one subject of “idolatry,” I'm afraid we will just go away. Do we want a ghost town like exists over at Berean? Sorry you don’t have time to write a book. But it’s not fair to drop it on our heads, one mega-post at a time. All here may not have in common the fact of paying for this forum. But most of us have in common that we have spent at least a decade or two, or three of our adult lives in the group being discussed. Please don’t drown us out on the abuse thread. Roger |
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08-28-2008, 05:57 AM
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#587 | |
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Location: DFW area
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Quote:
The problem is that you are bringing the definition to the level at which no one escapes, yet you want to point at someone else. If we are going to look at it at this most general level, then you are responsible for yourself and I am responsible for myself. Get your own sackcloth and ashes. Don’t throw yours on me. I have enough of my own. You’ve got a serious thing to consider. What you feel is right you have to stick to. But when there is a preponderance of others who disagree, you have to determine what is happening. Are they merely blind? Or is there a better sense in the group than in the individual? Either can be correct. Now, while I do not rank any of us with the various scholars who write, I do note that we tend to accept the common position more than the lone position. (Following Lee was surely an exception on many issues.) Are you so clear that your sense of the situation is right and everyone else is wrong? Most of us have agreed with the varying levels of idolatry that you have brought forward. But we disagree that it is as meaningful as a systemic thing when you get to the level where every sin is effectively linked to idolatry. We also agree that we can fully see how certain ones clearly abdicated their following of Christ to follow Lee and his ministry. But what we “obviously” see now has not always been so obvious. Few saw the things that we now speak of as facts. They were somewhat hidden. The fact that those persons were mostly the leadership and set the direction for the LC does not make the rest willing idolaters at the same level. As I pointed out previously, most have followed they way they do because they have understood scripture to say what Lee’s teachings did. That was not because they worshipped Lee, but because they were fooled by his ways of speaking. Lee and the leadership are the workers. The rest are the farm, the building. The workers are judged harshly for the wood, hay and stubble that they use in building. That passage in 1 Cor 3 is not about you and me. It is about Lee and Benson and the other leaders. So other than finding this kind of idolatry at the core of the leadership, it is fairly well certain that the thing this thread is about, the failures in the second generation, are only remotely connected to that and are more definitely connected to a multitude of different things at the case-by-case level. Some of those are full of LC problems, some little. You feel so strongly to stand up to anyone with whom you disagree. I can do the same. Someone has to stop this. And a bunch of us have tried. You are not the arbiter of right and wrong. You have no separate standing to stop anyone, be it Don, SC, Ohio, or me. You are speaking for yourself. I believe that I am speaking consistent with a significant number of people who have said in one way or another that this is not right. It’s your turn to back down. Your continuance in this line is coming through as arrogance. If the “body” is speaking, it is you that is not listening. If you consider your calling above that, then consider Lee and his ways. He took no counsel from anyone. Are you headed there? It might be best if the chirping of crickets is the only response.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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08-28-2008, 06:30 AM
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#588 |
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Chirp ... chirp ... chirp ...
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08-28-2008, 07:05 AM
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#589 | |
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I'm not accusing you avoiding a label. I said, no one likes being labeled. Me included. Your skewing my words. That's just a simple fact. Matt |
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08-28-2008, 07:07 AM
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#590 | |
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Quote:
In your reaction you are closer to doing this than what I am doing. Sorry, Roger, if this whole subject is upsetting you and the things I am saying are also upsetting you. I am not like Lee. I have zero control over you. I cannot exercise any authority over anyone here. I'm not asking the owner of this site to support what I am saying. I'm not asking anyone to support what I am saying. If I am flat wrong, then okay. I can live with that and the only loss is to me. In your responses your simply asking me to "shut up". I am not asking the same thing of you. Your responses are welcome and the reader will benefit from them. These things should be weighed out properly in the hearts and minds of each person before the Lord. In the process, you can call me anything you want. I may object to some of your characterizations of my person. That's my right. But, prove me wrong. I've never said there was no value in the "corporate" / "collective" aspect of the LC. I've asked what some are holding valuable because depending upon what aspects are held valuable there could be a real problem. There's a big difference if you read what I'm actually saying and don't just react to it, because you don't like my thought about it. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 07:20 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 07:12 AM
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#591 |
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I've always found when I start my own thread on a subject I'm interested in that I have a little more leverage on where it goes. An idolatry thread could easily be initiated in Matt's name and relevant posts copied over through the technical wonders of board admininstration software. Just a humble suggestion.
Frankly, I've never know what this thread has been about. What does does "The LCS Factor" mean, anyway? Sounds like a TV drama. For that matter, what does "LCS" stand for? I'm really confused. Perhaps that's the reason I've introduced so many irrelevancies here. |
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08-28-2008, 07:18 AM
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#592 | |
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Quote:
We've gotten stuck on idolatry simply because it was posited as a source / root cause of some of the damage done to the 2nd generation of LCer's, due to what the 1st generation of LCer's got themselves mixed up in (knowingly or unknowingly). Specifically, we've gotten stuck on the fact that there was a system of idolatry implemented over the course of the years (i.e. what I see as a big part of the LCS Factor) that has had a large impact on individuals and families. The only reason I haven't gone to another thread is because everything about idolatry has come up in context of the impacts of the Local Church System on the 2nd generation of the LC. Idolatry is a topic that can stand on it's own, but it is the very connection of this subject to the context of the LC that makes it so important (and yes, touchy). I realize that your suggestion is an attempt to 'moderate' the situation and it's not a bad suggestion. I don't think the context should be lost in any transition if it is going to happen. djohnson, Do you want me to go elsewhere with this subject? Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 07:28 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 07:24 AM
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#593 |
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Location: USA
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So, what does "LCS Factor" mean?
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08-28-2008, 07:28 AM
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#594 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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I wish this was a dead horse. The problem it is that it is very much alive. It’s like trying to put a halter on a horse while hecklers are popping out from behind bushes and throwing rocks at it. J The beating of the dead horse smilie makes me think of what happened to you and me and many others. The guy with the stick is a priest in the Babylonian priesthood. He just swung away while we laid there passively like a dead horse. Only, we weren’t dead and felt every blow. Today, when dead horses start speaking about the stick (false teachings) and the authority structure that has the power to wield it (the ruling class), those who treasure the man and the stick start screaming foul play. Go figure.So, yes, I also believe that the abuse is laid primarily at the feet of false teachings. My posts on idolatry have mainly been about pointing out the idolatrous Babylonian religion style system that gave the teachers the power to embed these false teachings into our hearts and minds as being words from God and then to abuse us when we deviated. That is the idolatry I’m talking about and that is why I'm talking about it and calling it what it is. We all were in that structure (except SC who managed to do his own thing. Good for him.) That is the all I’m talking about. If anyone out there can tell us you were fully committed to the LC vision and were not in or under the leadership structure there, please speak up (again, SC excepted.) What am I doing? What is Matt doing? We are attempting to nail down the characteristics of an idolatrous leadership practice, so we can flee from those that practice such things. Without false teachers who have the power to shape a man’s mind because he’s given away his power, false teachings don’t get very far. Neither does spiritual abuse. We need to be able to nip the Babylonian principles in the bud. Satan is afraid we will do this. He doesn’t want to lose his ability to write things into our hearts and minds like he was god. He knows that this is exactly what God will do when we are fully yielded to Him and treasure His pure word. That is what the fight on this forum is about. It is not flesh and blood but prinicipalities and powers who do not want the light to shine on their deceitful methods, of which we are all victims. If we don't see these principles clearly and understand at a core level what went wrong we will circle this way again. The fact is that the LC leadership was and is, a very, very, sick idolatrous system. People who yield to it's control get sick also. The LC leadership has a track record of targeting the faithful after getting their orders to do so straight from hell. There is a trail of blood that cannot be hidden. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-28-2008 at 07:41 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 07:31 AM
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Matt P.S. And I said I would shut up for the day.  I should have known better. 
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08-28-2008, 07:42 AM
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08-28-2008, 07:53 AM
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#597 |
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Igzy the first post on this thread explains my intended purpose in starting it.
Matt I think you and/or the forum admin should decide whether to start a separate thread on idolatry. It is not my role to decide such things.
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08-28-2008, 08:00 AM
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#598 | |
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Is Matt's definition correct? In your first post you seem to imply that LCS factor means something that corrupts youth, but if so the subject has broadened considerably. |
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08-28-2008, 08:08 AM
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Don't bow down to the "powers that be"! You opened the thread and that is why I asked you. Matt |
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08-28-2008, 08:13 AM
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Scene in hell: Demon Zula: Hey, Zanatron, you got anything scheduled for today? Demon Zanatron: (Checking Blackberry). Just a couple lawyers at 2:00. Why? Zula: The Master wants an interaction with the LSM gang up on La Palma. Zanatron: (Groaning) Not them again. I’ve had it with those guys. They can’t get anything right. Zula: Whachutalkinabout? Zanatron: Would you cool it with the Gary Coleman stuff? You don’t even sound like him. Plus he’s like twenty years out of date. Zula: Whatever. Anyway, what’s your problem with the LSM gang? They’re cooperative. Zanatron: To a fault. Like when I gave them the directive about the Q, -- Zula: Q? Zanaton: Quarantine. When I told them it was the slickest way to rid themselves of the TC problem, what do they do? They pull this “One Publication” thing out of their rears. Zula: One Pub? What’s wrong with that? It worked, didn’t it? Zanatron: (Sticking a marshmellow on his pitchfork which he then stokes in the fire.) Worked? They had to run up to Canada to hold the trial. How pathetic. Zula: (Firing a flaming dart into the ether) Hey, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Zanatron: (Pulls marshmellow from pitchfork and eats it delicately) I’m tired of the whole mess. Just once I’d like to work with a decent man, someone who didn’t hide behind faux rationales and idiotic symbols. Zula: Hm. A Don Corleone type? Zanatron: (Grabs his Blackberry) Uh-oh, I’m getting something from the boss. (Reading) “Get up to the Bereans forum and stir up some dust about idolatry … IMMEDIATELY!” Zula: The Bereans? Zanatron: He means that new site. He can never remember. Zula: Well, I’ve got some good news for you. Zanatron: (Putting on his hat and grabbing a whip) What’s that? Zula: No need to head to the site: they’re already knee-deep in idolatry dust. Zanatron: No kidding? (Taking off hat and hanging whip back on hook) And they’ll probably blame us. Zula: Hey, if it gets you an afternoon off, don’t complain. Me, I’ve got to go to Denver. Zanatron: I feel your pain. (He places another marshmellow on pitchfork, yelping in pain as he accidentally singes his finger) Fade out. |
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08-28-2008, 08:19 AM
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#601 |
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Matt I know why you asked me but I've never thought the role of a thread starter is to decide who can post what and where they can post it.
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08-28-2008, 08:22 AM
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#602 | |
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08-28-2008, 08:48 AM
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#603 |
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Igzy on my initial thread I mentioned some behaviors and asked this question: "What role, if any, do you think the LCS played in the development of these behaviors?"
I think it is clear that Matt and Thankful think idolatry in the LCS is a cause of some problems among the second generation. I don't think it can be argued that idolatry does not exist in the LCS. It's self-evident. Lee is idolized by many including the high priesthood in Anaheim. Nor do I think it can be credibly argued that where idolatry exists people will not be negatively affected. Obviously idolatry will have an adverse effect on people and their children. Is idolatry the only issue? I don't think so. Was everyone involved? I have no way of knowing this and neither does anyone else. How can we know the hearts and minds of thousands of people? I am well aware that my original thread starting question falls within the realm of social science and that social science is considered a "soft science" in terms of arriving at conclusive irrefutable data. I opened this thread not because I thought some conclusive cause and effect item would be discovered but because I thought it would be a good idea to explore the issue. We do know environment plays a significant role in child development and subsequent adult behaviors. And since the LCS was such a pervasive environment it surely played a role. We may never determine the exact measure of that role but we might be wiser for the exploration. I think the number of readers of this thread is an indication that the issue is of high interest to many.
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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08-28-2008, 08:53 AM
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#604 |
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dj,
So "LCS" stands for "local church system?" |
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08-28-2008, 08:54 AM
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#605 |
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Igzy if some feel they are outside the bounds of courtesy they should do something about it. It is not my role to decide this for others.
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08-28-2008, 08:55 AM
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#606 | ||
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Quote:
You must feel like  Quote:
 on this one. Who knows what the actual scene in hell is or how directly the orders were delivered, but with all the carnage we know the orders aren't coming from the Lord.I think the Midwest has been on the sharp end of this "stick" in recent times. It isn't that hard to see that brothers & sisters are acting against brothers & sisters for the sake of trying to reinforce the subjugated status of many congregations and individuals to a "system". Since we know this isn't inspired of God, where do you propose that it is inspired from if it is not from hell? Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 09:54 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 08:56 AM
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It's just a joke, folks. |
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08-28-2008, 08:59 AM
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#608 |
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Igzy yes LCS = Local Church System. How do you like it? I was thinking of WLS i.e. Witness Lee System but he's dead - sorta. Then I thought maybe BBS i.e Blended Brothers System but then I was thinking that with all the divisive activity going on it wasn't inclusive enough.
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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08-28-2008, 09:01 AM
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#609 | |
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08-28-2008, 09:40 AM
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#610 | |
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First, I think second-generation failure is a concern for many church leaders and a reality for the LCS. Why does it happen? Why aren't the children of the faithful faithful? The first reason is probably related to children's natural desire to distinguish themselves from their parents, combined with their seeing the hypocrisy and inconsistences they are privy to by living with their parents. This is probably true in all cases. In the case of the LCS, I think the problem is likely significantly due to failing to put the message in a form which the young people find compelling and accessible. Kids, it's been show again and again, are attracted to things which relate to them and which fit into their world. This is always a challenge and since the LCS believes in not tinkering with WL's message or delivery, the kids pretty much get the same stuff in the same way the grownups do. This is a great way to encourage failure. This leads us back to the fact that a church diet consisting mostly of high theology doesn't appeal to everyone. It's been a hard lesson to me, and I think a practical lesson for many pastors, that some people are just, as Lee called them, "mooing cows." Well, guess what? God called you to shepherd those cows and if serving them your high theology seven days a week isn't getting the results you want, maybe that should tell you something. As the Lord told his disciples, "You feed them." If they aren't eating what you are dishing up perhaps you should try a different recipe. JMHO. Last edited by Cal; 08-28-2008 at 09:46 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 10:01 AM
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#587 “The problem is that you are bringing the definition to the level at which no one escapes, yet you want to point at someone else. If we are going to look at it at this most general level, then you are responsible for yourself and I am responsible for myself. Get your own sackcloth and ashes. Don’t throw yours on me. I have enough of my own.” The then one yesterday: #550 “When we willfully sin, we have clearly turned our hearts from God. That is, by definition, lowering God’s status in our hearts. So in the broader sense of the term, every sin involves idolatry. So, if every sin is idolatry, why isn’t every call for repentance put in terms of turning from idolatry? A few put it in the mix in relation to certain things, but not as an umbrella under which all sins could be found.” Do you see me wiggling out of either of these? I’m not going back further than that. You can do it on your own. Your response to me suggests that you are not actually reading what I say, just responding to my displeasure in the course this has taken. Deny it if you will, but your response above is its own evidence for my statement. Take offense in that statement if you will. To paraphrase someone else’s statements here, I’ve just got to stop this nonsense. Sound familiar? Well, it cuts both ways. I’ve got the same rights you claim to have. And by the way, the last time you trotted that “stop someone” line out, concerning the Dallas thing earlier, you were very wrong, and were party to a gross fallacy of logic. And you never admitted it, but simply quit the argument and turned to this. It’s high time you admit your own bull-headedness rather than accusing the rest of us of avoiding the broader definition of idolatry. It never happened. The fact is, that while we despised the interference of the BARM super-moderators, left to our own devices, there is beginning to be an undesirable flavor here. This was not the first, although it is hard to compare any others to it. We have thrown off the shackles of the BARM, and even managed to leave enough of the actual LC group behind that we suddenly have little boundary except our own consciences. Those may be failing. There is a bit of a “I’ll be damned if anyone is going to stop me now” attitude that is beginning to rule. Well, you seem to have elected yourself as the stopper of others. You need to listen to someone else at least occasionally. This is probably just such a time.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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08-28-2008, 10:16 AM
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I read your whole post. I went back and read it again just a minute ago and realized I had missed one of your questions. While you were posting, I was PMing and it's in your inbox right now. I will reiterate the fact that the broad definition I have used, I have also pointed at myself (not just others). Capiche? It is true I have avoided some of your comments. If there are ones that you still consider important, please put them forward and I'll address them. If you want to point out a particular logical fallacy that is clear and ask me to admit to it, then fine. I'll admit to it. Matt |
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08-28-2008, 10:20 AM
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#613 | |
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Matt, Well, not everything we do comes "directly from hell" as TJ put it. We're not just puppets in the war between God and Satan. We have souls, we have minds, we have choice. Witness Lee said something interesting when covering the book of Ruth. I'll paraphrase: Ruth represents the good part of humanity. That was an eye-opener for me at the time. I had never seen that humanity had anything other than a dark side, a fallen side. I was a Calvinist from day one. The trouble with that view is, the people of earth constantly prove it wrong. People do good things, selfless things. How about Pat Tillman, the former NFLer who decided to do something that was a higher calling than blocking linemen. He risked, and gave, his life for his belief in America. Furthermore, Satan isn't, as has been pointed out here, omnipresent. Even his minions are limited in number. Do you really think every thought of ours is whispered into our ears by either demons or angels? Actually, your view -- that our thoughts are either God-inspired or Satan-inspired -- really proves Lee's theory that Satan was injected into us at the fall. At any rate, I reject the puppet theory of mankind. Men have a free will. We can think our own thoughts, make our own choices. True, we are the battleground between God and Satan, but even in a war there are many, many places where life goes on as if nothing has changed. SC |
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08-28-2008, 10:26 AM
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08-28-2008, 10:51 AM
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#615 |
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One of the main causes of divorce is adultery. Young children typically do not understand adultery but they are effected by the divorce.
In the bible there is such a thing as spiritual adultery. There is a divorce of sorts going on in the LCS right now and FYI your children are watching it and being effected by it. What or more pointedly who is this divorce about? Answer: Witness Lee. Another lover competing with the Lord's rightful place in the church.
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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08-28-2008, 10:51 AM
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#616 | |
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Even with all the abuse and improprieties of LC leadership, I still received Christ from LC ministries. I still had many experiences of the anointing in LC meetings. The Lord spoke to me so many times. I had so many precious times with wonderful saints. All the precious times I have had must temper my critiques, or else I am neither fair nor honest. Neither Jim Moran nor Matt are guided by these experiences. Their writings display this.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-28-2008, 11:02 AM
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#617 | |
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what...ever. Do as you like on your forum. Roger |
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08-28-2008, 11:13 AM
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#618 |
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Stopping abuse in the body of Christ.
The second generation of LCers are the result of growing up in religious environment that was majorly out of whack with God and the Bible. It was a mixture of the things of God with the ways of the devil. In this environment many children were neglected, treated as objects of "authority" needing to be subdued, and were left with deep rooted false beliefs about the nature and character of God as a result. I'll say more about this later. Like glue that held the hold place together, the religious control exercised over families by the leadership hierarchy is a fundamental cause of these problems.
Before I say more in this vein in another post, let me say this is not about condemning a group, this is about educating ourselves. We need to be educated about what produces religiously abusive environments. Our situation is not the first, nor will it be the last. We need to learn something from all of this. Here are characteristics we need to be able to spot a mile away, even in seed form. They do not belong anywhere in the body of Christ. Characteristics of an idolatrous system which the Bible calls mystery Babylon the Great: 1. A consecrated hierarchy of men in willing and absolute submission to those above them who actively and vigilantly silence, subdue, and conquer the common people in line with their prime religious directive. They accept no responsibility for the actions they take which are dictated by their superiors. They believe they will not give account for such actions because they are obeying others and acting on God’s behalf. 2. A body of leavened teachings by one man, who is considered to be the mouthpiece of God on the earth, which is systematically written in the hearts and minds of adherents day after day and never questioned. 3. Common people, held by fear, who are willingly submitted to leavened false teachings and false teachers and who believe they are submitting to God in doing so. 4. An absolute consecration to a God-given vision of the church that is uniquely theirs, one that makes them unique and special, superior to other Christians. 5. Teachings and practices that tolerate sexual sin among believers. 6. Taking financial advantage of God’s people for the financial gain of those at high levels of the hierarchy who handle monies without open public accountability. I am sure that there are some who can truthfully claim that they did not absolutely follow Lee's teachings in heart and mind, but I don't believe there are hardly any who can claim that they were not in or under the LC leadership hierarchy (other than SC). Those who openly resisted were rejected overtly. If their resistance was passive, they survived longer. To continue to submit meant more and more compromise of conscience. For an example of how this works on individuals in the system, just ask those elders who hid the sin of a Texas elder at the dictate of Lee and had to lie from that day forward to cover up this deed. Ten years down the road that decision and related lies resulted in the destruction of two LC families. For an example of how this works on a mass scale and what happens when there is resistance to it, take a look at the wielding of unholy authority at Whistler and the subsequent demand for the masses to line up behind that public horse whipping and continue to beat that horse until it couldn’t move any more. As we post here today, who is still suffering from that? Families and brethren who were divided as a result. When you any of see these characteristics at work, you can call it whatever you want, only flee it and purge your mind of any leaven that got sown into it while subject to its darkness. God calls it idolatry. The Spirit calls it Mystery Babylon the Great and cries out, “Come out of her my people that you be not partakers of her sins and of her plagues.” Thankful Jane |
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08-28-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
I didn't bring it up because I did have some "lordship" over there and it would have been inappropriate for me to do it in that environment. It is appropriate here. Quote:
I've actually had some of the exact same kind of experience that many here talk about in the "early days" of the LC where the Lord was among you and He was the head over the meetings in a body of believers who were not under any kind of deputy control. I really enjoyed those times. In fact, those meetings were with ex-LCer's who claimed that although the meetings weren't as large, they were just as rich with the Lord among us. So let me re-emphasize that point: I have tasted the presence of the Lord and seen the work of the Holy Spirit in a christian context much like what you experienced in the early days of the LC. God arranged it for me with witnesses who can attest to the fact that it was like that. This was in the early to mid 90's. I believe that on every point of "credentials" you can throw at me, I am "credentialed". I have no "credentials" from men. No degree. No seminary education. I have never been a "member" of a denomination. I have only consecrated myself to the Lord plus nothing. I meet with other believers in an elder driven church which has the freedoms that the LC lacks. I am steeped in the teachings of the inner life and can testify to "Christ in me, the hope of glory". God has been real to me in my personal walk with him. The Body of Christ has ministered to me over many years to bring me from a bad state towards one with a healthier walk in the Lord. What else do you want to try me on? Make a list. Note: Keep in mind. My witness is not just my own. It's backed up by two parents who have all the time you require and desire for someone to be able to speak up on this subject. I am not being prideful. I am checking your statements against the facts of my life. Your statements don't hold. Feel free to trot out here and perform some character assassination. I can deal with it. I'm not being belligerent. I'm just going to be steadfast in presenting some information about idolatry. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 11:33 AM. |
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08-28-2008, 11:39 AM
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#620 | |
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This is the problem we are talking about. We need to understand what happened there. I was loving Jesus, reading my Bible, reading other's Christian testimonies, loving the brothers and sisters and sharing what I was enjoying from times with the Lord in the Word. I was starting to find my freedom in Christ and realizing I did not have to submit to what men were telling me was God with regard to my practical life. I had not one thought against Witness Lee. I spoke not one word against Witness Lee. I was enjoying God and my Christian family. Then came the ax. It was wielded by the power invested in the hierarchy and I bowed to it and kept my face in that dirt until God mercifully lifted me up out of the pit I had been left in. Should that have happened? Of course not. That was spiritual abuse, pure and simply. This kind of behavior does not belong in the body of Christ. It is Mystery Babylon the Great behavior. We have to face it. It was present among us. We have to get free to the core from the principles that allow the mystery of iniquity to work among us. The devil's targets: those who are loving and walking with Jesus. Tools to accomplish this: . men with who will practice hierachy among brothers and who are coveting something other than pleasing God only and can be influenced by money . men who want to be told by others what to do to please God . men who want to be more "special" to God than others, (who want to sit on the left and right hand of Jesus) We need to learn our lessons so we can have wonderful experiences of Christ together without the devil making inroads and destroying the basic building blocks of the kingdom of God: you and me walking with Jesus. Thankful Jane |
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08-28-2008, 12:13 PM
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I find this current strain of argument to be kinda obvious. It's like discussing the RC being rampant with child molesters among their priesthood. Did all priests do it? No. Is a system in place filled with people in power that covered it up? Yup. Sick huh? Yet the same RC has Mother Teresa, etc. So...obviously any place is going to have the good the bad and the ugly.
Problem is: the crazies who have blind loyalty to the RC, LCS or anywhere else. They are like Americans, etc with blind patriotism. Our country can do no wrong die hards. Then on the other extreme we have the yahoos saying: our country can do no right. Which is it? Neither. Surprisingly I didn't have to become a rocket scientist to figure this all out.
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08-28-2008, 12:45 PM
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#622 | |
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I never implied that you have never tasted the sweetness of Christ, not at all, only that it was not in an LC context. Are you now saying that during your time in the LC, you had many sweet times in the Lord? I understand you to mean that there were ex-LC'ers present, but that isn't the same. I'm sure those times were rich and sweet indeed. So ... you were disagreeing with something I didn't say. Sorry about the confusion ... I don't think being in the GLA LC's from the mid-70's makes me at all "credentialed." But your comments about the church in Dallas, as Hope described it, neither makes you adequately "credentialed" to dispute him, don't you think? If you have not lived in Dallas for a period of time in the church while Hope served there, how can you discredit his comments while there? I only compared your views on "idolatry" with Moran's views on "cults." There was no character assassination. It is a valid observation, is it not? Both of you had some first hand experience with the LC's, so your views are very important. But those views are not balanced by a memory of sweetness. That was my only point. The point is not derogatory of you personally. Many others have only bitter memories of the LC's. To date, I have only heard of those times when you "resisted the program," if that was a fair way to describe it. The only rebuttal you can make about my last post is to come forth and tell the posters that the sweetness of Christ, i.e. "Taste and see that the Lord is good," was tasted by you while you were meeting with with the LC's.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-28-2008, 01:08 PM
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#623 | |
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Thankful Jane, I agree wholeheartedly and have stated this often. Yours was a tragic case of abuse, lording it over, etc. It should never have happened! I have mentioned some of the stories of abuse which I have experienced and also witnessed in others. Three years ago, as I stopped serving, I realized the "program produces bullies out of beloved brothers." I wrote this in posts. Your story in ToG simply confirmed that. It was not just my LC, my regional leaders in the GLA, and a ministry in Anaheim, but Texas too! Sounded systemic! There was too much abuse everywhere! Not with all brothers, of course, but many practices in this "program" are just plain bad. People got hurt. People got abused. Others, who witnessed this, won't admit it. They would like to cover up the abuse, and discredit those hurt ones who left. This is perhaps the primary reason why I post on the forum. I have never said that every LC member was an abuser, and ... I have addressed only that abuse which could be considered in the mind of the abused as "perfecting," or "being one with the ministry," or the like. I don't like sweeping generalizations, which like prejudices, are not fair. Now ... when we jump from "instances of abuse" to "everyone is an idolator," I have a few reservations.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-28-2008, 01:46 PM
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a) something is wrong with the group I was meeting with b) something is wrong with the group you were meeting with c) there is something special about the group you were meeting with that makes the presence of the Lord there more in some way than the presence of the Lord in the gathering I was in. Do you have additional options? Please present them. I'm interested. What you have to think about here is the very real possibility that I have experienced the same thing you have in a different setting (not LC specific). The meetings I have been to most recently were in LSM driven localities and they were not good. When I went to some other Midwest localities, they were better. Quote:
But no, I'm not specifically "credentialed" to dispute Hope on the topic of Dallas. I am "credentialed" enough to object to his characterization that it was better from the "systematic" point of view. You need to read back through what he says and realize that the main party he is carving out of the picture is himself. When challenged on issues related to Dallas the response is that he and his family tried to do it differently. I do believe him and there is fruit demonstrated even here on this forum that what he says is true about his own efforts. These efforts do not counter the environmental effects of the LC environment. When Hope indicates that he started removing his own children from LSM driven activities this is a clear indication that even he knows the system was messed up and would have an adverse impact on the 2nd generation. I don't really have to have my own "credentials" in regards to Dallas. I have the witness of others including Hope himself. There are other witnesses that have spoken up on this very forum (at least two: bookworm, Process). Dallas shouldn't be painted black, but it shouldn't be painted white either. It should be painted with the same color of gray as the rest of the LC with a little whitening effect for the time that Hope was there. What about now? I can tell you that now it is the same color of gray as the rest of the LC. It is an LSM/LC church. It's no exception in 2008. It succumbed to the strong influence of the LC system just like many others have. I have personal access to quite a few members of the church in Dallas and we could have a very direct conversation with direct witnesses on this subject in a face-to-face mode. I'm willing for truth to be established concretely. Final Note: Brother Ohio, Truly, I'm not offended with you Ohio. I'm just holding your statements up to the light, just as you are doing to some of what I am saying. Questions: a) Would you ever go back into the RCC? Why not? b) Would you ever go back into an LSM/LC driven church? Why not? Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-28-2008 at 02:20 PM. |
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08-28-2008, 04:28 PM
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#625 |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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Matt,
I appreciate your obedience to the Lord. I don't want to stand before Him one day with any sin in my life of any kind. The light is bright on this thread and I want to pay attention to what He is saying to me about sin. Judgment begins at the house of the Lord, and as I look around at what's going on, I think we must be there. Nell |
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08-28-2008, 05:20 PM
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#626 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Durham, North Carolina
Posts: 313
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Seen and Heard
Hello Forum and special greetings to Matt,
Quote from Matt My initial reaction to this thread and my decision to post here was based on a key fact. Hope was trying to exclude his locality from the rest of the Texas bunch. I stood up in opposition to this attempt. The reason I did is not because Dallas was the best or worst, but because it was part of a whole set of churches that were under the strong sway of an idolatrous system that was engineered and whose engineering started all the way back in the mid-60's. This quote says a lot Matt. Actually I was attempting to counter the broad brush approach of dj and a few other posters. I had no idea we were headed toward a discussion of idolatry. This is a false premise, simple and basic. I prefer to speak about what I know personally and directly. Often you see the phrase in the NT “seen and heard.” The apostles spoke about what they had seen and heard. I would prefer to only address what I do know. Of course there were many commonalities among the various churches in Texas. For the most part they all flowed out of Houston and then also out of Dallas and then Austin etc. Benson Phillips was the very dominating leader. In my opinion he possessed the first gift mentioned in Rom 12:8, he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. NASB Benson was an incredible leader. He shaped everyone and one thing he will never be accused of is being lazy. Look up the word diligence in the dictionary and you will find his picture. But isn’t it interesting that showing mercy follows the mention of the gift of leading and is of equal importance with all the other gifts of teaching, prophesy etc. The mutual life of the believers in the Body of Christ cannot work well without some of the members having this gift of showing mercy. (I love to fellowship on Romans chapter 12 and the gift of showing mercy.) Matt, your above quote shows the mindset, bias, to throw everyone into the same bucket. Unfortunately when anyone tries to point out to you that your view may be anything less than a true report or conclusion or it is time to reconsider at least a little, you take offense that people are trying to shut you up. Perhaps you could consider ole Billy Shakespeare, when he said “me thinks thou dost protest too much.” Hope's warning based on Edom has validity, but it must be set in context. Edom is a type of the flesh and God will completely and utterly deal with the flesh. Types are good. I think sometimes we can overwork types. Witness Lee may have been among the all time best teachers of types but he often missed the simple points of an OT passage. Matt, I appreciate your study of the OT and of idolatry. I have studied the OT some myself and have found idolatry to be very relevant to today’s society and church. But many times it is best to just first of all take the OT story for what it is and let the Lord speak to the reader regarding his own current situation. I believe the story of Edom could have a message for the former members of the LC who have a valid interest in pointing out the errors of the system. Is Hope saying that everything being said against the LC is just coming from the "flesh"? If not, how does Hope separate it out in his mind? As an estimate what percentage of what is being said is from the "flesh" versus what percentage is coming from some acting like the prophets? Jeremiah weeped because he saw the judgment coming on Judah and it broke his heart. This is from the Spirit of God. Edom mocked and ridiculed Judah when the judgment was coming. This was not from the Spirit of God, it was in the "flesh". (Note: I don't claim to be a prophet, nor do I claim to operate solely apart from the "flesh") Matt, I assume you were speaking rhetorically when you called of my take of the percentage of flesh vs the percentage of Spirit. I prefer not to get too fine in analysis and then too sweeping in conclusion. This is a common error I see among zealous Christians. What will we do if and when the LC is judged? Where is our heart? Notice I say, "if". I don't presume they will be in any way that is completely obvious from an outside viewpoint. I am not presuming, be assured that judgment is coming and has already begun. The LSM will be judged in this age and the coming age. As it is unfolding, I do not want to be with Edom. If our words against the teachings and practices of the LC come from the "flesh" then we should integrate some Godly fear. If however, we speak more like the prophets attempting to remind a people whose ears have been closed, then we should fear not speaking more than we fear this warning from Hope. How about fearing both without prejudice. I know that is not easy. If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the individual saints and the Lord in their lives, then there is absolutely no disagreement. However, If it is a reference to the "testimony" of the group as a collective, then it is quite another thing. We move closer to the heart of the problem and why I think there is still a thought being held that is wrong according to the Lord. Yes, and yes, the Lord’s testimony is the Lord’s testimony. Our job is not to parse out which context we like or do not like but to recognize whatever God has done. If my history continues, I now realize I will need to bring out more of the positive experiences of the group as a collective as well as individual experiences. Thank you for the input. 1. What do you propose we should keep from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC? Let us see it and inspect it in the light of God's Word. Please be as specific as possible. This is a kind of challenge, but not because I am trying to cause you a problem. I really want to know what are the good things you are holding onto from the "collective" / "corporate" experience of the LC. Matt, as a student of the OT, you know there was always a mixed bag with the Israelites, the Kings etc. They had good days and bad days. The same with the early churches and with the seven churches in Revelation chapters 1-3. The Bible is faithful to tell of both. How about us? The LSM can only speak of the good days, real or imagined. They can only refer to John Ingalls, Bill Mallon etc in evil terms, real or imagined. Lord save us from their example. I pray and trust I am not holding onto anything from the past. I have a great hope for the future. The Lord's principle is that the glory of the later house will be more that the glory of the former house. Also, whatever the Lord does is new. He always does a new thing. We have much to look forward to. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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08-28-2008, 07:10 PM
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#627 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,508
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It's Not Too Late!
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Specifically about offenses, that is a matter that cannot be trivialized. If we're serious about being One Body in Christ, we will be serious about taking care of our relationships with all the members. There is ample opportunity in this life to resolve offenses providing the Lord grants us time. After that is the judgment seat. Terry Last edited by TLFisher; 08-28-2008 at 10:31 PM. Reason: adding content |
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08-29-2008, 03:46 AM
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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We need an ... (e) none of the above. Regarding your final questions ... I have visited both, with the saying in heart, "hate the system, but love the people."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-29-2008, 05:24 AM
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#629 | |
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Posts: 152
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Yes, it does say quite a lot. You are correct, but it's not about bucketing everyone the same. I hadn't been posting on this forum at all until what happened on this thread. a) You reacted to dj and a few others (mostly dj). b) I reacted to your reaction. Thus the cycle that brings us here began. During times of difficult communication, I try to spend a few minutes each day to think back through what everyone is actually saying. I want to make sure that I am hearing while I am talking. I know it appears that I am hearing nothing in this case. That's an appearance. I didn't suddenly fall off my rocker. I will be brief this morning. I have a lot to do today, but I do have a bit more to say in response to your post later one. You brought up the point about false premise. Here is the definition of a "false premise". Definition of a False Premise: A false premise is an incorrect proposition that forms the basis of a logical syllogism. A syllogism is a kind of logical argument in which one proposition (the conclusion) is inferred from two others (the premises) of a certain form. I want to make sure I understand your usage of "false premise" here. It may be important. I cannot clearly deduce your meaning from the text of your message. Can you elaborate on the details of the "false premise" in this case? (Note: I am not trying to point out logical argumentation error. I am trying to understand the substance behind your use of "false premise".) Note to others: This may seem like a technical detail that is irrelevant to most, but Hope is a really smart guy and he doesn't use a phrase like this without having a specific meaning. I want to make sure I hear the meaning before I say more. Thanks, Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-29-2008 at 05:39 AM. |
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08-29-2008, 05:32 AM
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Location: Texas
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08-29-2008, 05:37 AM
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Location: Texas
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Matt has pretty thick skin, in case anyone doesn't know that by now. However, he's still a person with something to say. God has put it in his heart to deliver a message to a tough crowd. Nell Last edited by Nell; 08-29-2008 at 05:52 AM. |
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08-29-2008, 05:56 AM
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#632 | |||
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Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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I like your questions.
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Unfortunately a believer may have a genuine gift and misuse it. Some have brought up the matter of vision or calling. Benson had a personal calling or vision and used his gift plus diligence to carry it out and to fulfill it. His calling or vision was deficient and contrary to God's administration and thus he is responsible for many tragedies. Quote:
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By the way consider the verse in Hebrews, Heb 13:17, Obey your leaders, and submit to them; for they keep watch over your souls, as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. NASB This verse is best translated as "Be willing to be persuaded" rather than obey and submit. The leading in the Body of Christ is not one that expects obedience and submission but rather gently seeks to persuade those over whom they are tenderly watching. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all. Hope, Don Rutledge PS I enjoy this type of analysis and seeking to match the scriptures with various practices that we all might learn and progress in our walk with Christ. Thanks Nell for the questions and the opportunity to make my observations clearer. Last edited by Hope; 08-29-2008 at 05:58 AM. Reason: making quotes clearer |
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08-29-2008, 06:01 AM
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#633 | |
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Matt |
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08-29-2008, 07:41 AM
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#634 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Durham, North Carolina
Posts: 313
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False Premise
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Now all the posters will be looking at my posts is a much more critical light. Thanks for nothing friend. Does Matt ever have the advantage now! Your definition is fine by me. Let me go over some of my thinking. Quote from Matt My initial reaction to this thread and my decision to post here was based on a key fact. Hope was trying to exclude his locality from the rest of the Texas bunch. I stood up in opposition to this attempt. The reason I did is not because Dallas was the best or worst, but because it was part of a whole set of churches that were under the strong sway of an idolatrous system that was engineered and whose engineering started all the way back in the mid-60's. Quote from dj Hope I think the fact there is an enemy seeking whom he may devour is a given for most Christians. But this cannot be the catch-all excuse for a lack of responsible parenting. It appears the issue with the LCS is not: we did everything we could to raise our kids in a healthy well adjusted manner etc but at the end of the day many just went off the deep end. But rather: our children were raised in an environment that was basically anti-family so it's a miracle that any of them survived and became healthy adults.__________________ I believe if you go back to my original post #13 I wrote very generically about the issue of children of Christian parents who get into trouble. I believed I clearly expressed that this is a genuine concern and is very important to me. Then dj in the post quoted above made his case and position much clearer. (Bold words are from me not dj.) I responded to this charge based on what I personally knew. There were many wonderful parents and families that I knew well. In Dallas, not Houston or Austin or OK City, I was intimately acquainted with parents and many of the children. I held them in high esteem and realized it is not easy raising children in the current environment. Your conclusion of the idolatrous system going back to the mid-60's applying across the board and thus all church members got the same result is the premise that needs to be re-examined. You must consider many factors in why children developed the way they did. There are cases in the same family where the outcomes are widely different. Finally for your argument of parental neglect, little church autocrats hurting children and bad teachings or lack of healthy teachings to be true, you do not have to subject each and every individual to the same analysis and conclussion. If some current or former lc believer reads that all are the same, they most likely will focus on what was not the same and reject the fundamental facts of your argument. Just a little brother trying to get along the best he can. Hope, Don Rutledge |
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08-29-2008, 08:16 AM
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#635 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Dear Hope,
You have not responded to my earlier question in this link: http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...&postcount=570 Did you see it? Thankful Jane |
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08-29-2008, 08:51 AM
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#636 | |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Quote:
Benson also needed people around him who had the gift of speaking the truth in love. WL had that same desperate need, as do we all. You were close to Benson. I know there were times you've told us about when you were in Dallas (at least I think I know this) that you were in the difficult position of telling Benson "no." Did you speak a word of truth to him along with that "no"? You don't have to answer that. I know there are plenty of opportunities I would like to have back when I could have spoken truth and didn't. I usually think of the best "stuff" after the opportunity is long gone. I've also had the experience of "the truth in love" coming to me in the form of a "2 by 4". It was pretty bad. Ultimately I realized Lord's word to me was for my highest good. Here's another sharp breaking curve on the outside corner knee high : have you spoken with Benson since you left Dallas? I think you said you spoke with him around the time of Don Looper's passing, but I mean conversations of substance regarding the past?Nell |
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08-29-2008, 09:44 AM
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#637 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 73
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It boggles my mind when I hear my mom recollect events where her children were mistreated or handled improperly by the LC youth ministers or elders (or others). She gets so angry and can go on and on about how wrong it was - how it affected our family and her children. She is completely aware this is why many of her children would never set foot in another meeting and most won't even talk about it. In the next breath she will tell me how much she has received from WL. My parents are getting older and I don't see them ever changing their viewpoint on the LC so I just sit and listen. I, like 9,145 other viewers/members to date, are seeking light in this area. Thanks to everyone for helping me find answers. |
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08-29-2008, 10:04 AM
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#638 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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In an earlier post, I defined three broad categories: abusers, abused, and assentors. I believe the assentors are the largest category. There are shades and degrees and overlaps of all these categories. I do, however, believe that there is one thing that every LC member had in common and that is that they participated to some degree in the authority based hierarchy that developed among us, from Lee down to that “littlest” sister he used to mention. Can you say you never participated in that? In that sense only, will I say that it is clear we all were involved in idolatry. As for the teachings of Lee, the level of appreciation also varies, but I think it is safe to say all were on the Lee bandwagon to some degree. Was that idolatry? Only if his teachings replaced or changed the truth of the Word of God in our hearts. It is easy to point to instances of abuse and say they were bad, however, I do not believe we can make proper assessments about the root causes by just looking at them as stand alone "instances." We have to ask, “Is there something that connects them?” What is the common factor in all the abuse cases? All the abuse wasn’t done directly by a few bad apples. It was carried out by men lined up under their “authority.” All of us participated in that system to some degree. I did. I am downright ashamed to say it, but it is the truth. I supported it. I participated in it. I submitted to it. I promoted it. Didn’t you? I brought others to do the same and some are still there today. I thought I was following God in doing so. We all did. I didn’t wake up one day and say, “Hmmm, I think today I will start practicing idolatry.” It took God close to 30 years to wake me up and show me that I couldn’t just walk away and forget about a place that contained an evil authoritarian system which is still at work which I supported and helped build. I had played a role in building that tower, so I had to do my part in righting things. I had to repent to God and to others for the part I played. I had to openly renounce that system of error. I had to expose evil deeds done in the name of the Lord. I finally saw that the Bible requires these things of me Why do we need to repent? To show our sorrow and to change! Why do we renounce the hidden things of dishonesty? To break the shackles the devil put on us when we willing held our hands out to let him snap them on. Why do we expose evil deeds? To help those who committed them come to repentance. The Bible is clear about these requirements on us. Do you think God said what He did in the Bible about idolatry so we could have intellectual discussions about it and scratch our tickling ears? Or, did he just need a topic to fill the pages of the Bible with? Just why did God have so many words to speak to us about idolatry? It’s not a hard answer: He was seeking to convince and convict us that we had left Him! Why don’t we just weep for that? Why are we so defensive? I just don’t get it. I want to be convicted of my sins now. Don’t you? I think one of the most shocking things to me about what has gone on the last week on this thread is the response to the idea that we have committed idolatry. On one hand some say, “Everyone has, so don’t talk about it!” On the other hand they say, “We are not all idolaters, only some are!” Why don’t we all just repent in sackcloth and ashes? Isn’t that the safest path? What might God do if we all did that? Instead, I see defensive postures and flying fig leaves. I see some who have resorted to picking up pebbles and popping up out of the bushes to throw them at those who are posting according to the burden the Lord gave them. Honestly, if it wasn’t for the fact that the Lord woke me early one morning before all this began, with specific verses from Ezekiel (for the third time in 2 years and the other 2 bore out to be of Him) and told me to not be afraid in the face of what was coming and to speak the words He gave me to speak, I would have folded as soon as the demands to shut up on this thread began. The information control mode that kicked in on this thread was nauseatingly similar to the past. Instead of being given the common courtesy of talking about the actual points being made, posters’ motives were called into question by some. Instead of being afforded the freedom to speak whatever God put on their heart to say, posters’ have been subjected to rebukes, accusations, twisting of their words, and straw-man arguments built by misshaping pieces of what had actually been said. Is this how Christians communicate in good faith? Questions asked of the pebble throwers to clarify communication appear to be have been ignored and bad communication techniques have continued. God is weeping for us, Ohio. I know it as sure as my name is Jane. He weeps in me when I see up close in the present the rubble and ruin of real people’s lives which are directly tied to their experiences under the authoritarian local church system. He is grieved in heart with what He sees. We did contribute to this, Ohio. God is weeping for us. TJ Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-29-2008 at 10:21 AM. |
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08-29-2008, 10:32 AM
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#639 | |
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Posts: 181
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If Matt has a case to make, then let him make it. He is free to post here no matter what we say. Why doesn't he ignore us and just do so. He should stop protesting counsel from the Body of Christ and just do what what he wants to. I may be overstepping here, but I get the distinct impression that Matt is not someone who can be persuaded from doing what he wants to. Of course, I don't really know him well enough to make that judgment. Just commenting what I've seen of him here. But I still think it would be better for him to start a whole nuther thread on "idolatry," instead of trying to smother all of us out with book excerpts. Roger Last edited by Paul Cox; 08-29-2008 at 10:23 PM. |
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08-29-2008, 10:34 AM
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#640 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Durham, North Carolina
Posts: 313
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Are you kidding? That is a high hard one!!
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He got things done. Look at the number of meeting halls built under his regime. He did not let things fall through the cracks. Part of his leadership gift was used to collect loyal followers. He did not need to invoke deputy authority to gain a following. By a following, I mean gaining a number of folks who were personally loyal and ready to carry out the latest directive. In addition, his following was jealous lest anyone be seen as a rival. I heard many of the Texas brethren refer to Benson in reverent tones in much the same way they might refer to WL. If you said no to WL, whatever influence for good you may have had would be over. The same kind of atmosphere existed in Texas regarding Benson. A few times when Benson lived in Dallas, I exerted a little pressure and met with stern discipline. Nothing said officially but just frozen out of any meaningful contributions. During one of these periods, I asked if I could work on the verses for the morning watch sheets. At the time, I had been exiled from any function in the meetings or service groups. Benson told me no. Someone else can do that. I realized that my little counter fellowship in the past, had effectively eliminated my function in the eldership. Once Samuel Chang was in Houston. Benson and the three other elders at the time planned to go to Houston to fellowship with him and the elders from Houston. He specifically said I was not to go. There was nothing going on in Dallas that needed my presence and I was not involved in any function anyway. Brother Chang had never come to Texas before and I desired to see him and learn about why he suddenly appeared. I made the decision to go anyway. I drove myself to Houston. During this time, I learned of the plans of Benson, Ray and Ben to have WL move his operations to Texas. This was news to me. And my knowledge of this was not good for my relationship with Benson. I was very much before the Lord regarding what I should do. I realized how unhappy Benson was with me and how I was being isolated from the church at large. I was very concerned about the saints and was about two inches away from withdrawing from the eldership to be free to care for the brothers and sisters. Also I felt that the removal of my presence from any elder meetings would be a relief to Benson and eliminate tension that was there. Suddenly WL and JI challenged Benson on why he was not utilizing my function. We almost never spoke to WL or JI as a group, but one Saturday we were on the phone to them when they challenged Benson directly. I have no idea where that came from. At any rate, we now had a number two and I was it. Here are two other little glimpses into our coordination. Benson had become very close to Bob Bynum. WL gave some admonition at an elders meeting about not having an inner circle in the eldership. Lusby decided to confront Benson about the clique of he and Bob. All of us could easily see it. I was not aware of what Lusby planned but right afterwards he came to see me and let me know how it went. I was in the yard washing my car. He told me how he had gone to see Benson with the above mission. He told Benson he wanted to discuss a clique that had developed. Benson then agreed that we had a problem and that he too was concerned about George Whitington and Don Rutledge forming a special party. Lusby confessed he held his peace and let Benson tell him that he had been waiting for confirmation and now he would confront George and Don. Lusby apologized to me for not saying what he really wanted to talk about. Then we both broke out laughing and laughed and laughed. We realized there was nothing Lusby could have done and George and I needed to get ready for a dressing down. I warned George what was coming and he just shook his head. Next meeting Benson corrected George and I and complemented Lusby for bringing it up. We just all took it. While Benson was in Anaheim building the hall, Mickey Buice moved to Denver. Mickey is now deceased. After Benson left Dallas, I discovered some bad deeds on Mickey's part. I did not expose him but he unfortunately took action to deal with me just in case. He contacted Benson in Anaheim and told him how badly I had treated the other elders in Benson's absence. His motive was clear to me. He desired to cloud any charges I may bring against him. Benson asked myself and the other two elders who were in Anaheim to meet him for dinner. There he read me the riot act for what I had done to the other brothers in his absence. No one spoke up. Lusby and Tim and I were all in the same hospitality and rode home together after the meal. I said nothing. Tim spoke first and said strongly that Benson's charges were false and Lusby joined in and agreed with Tim and sought to encourage and comfort me. Finally I asked them why they said nothing at the meal. They both shook their heads and said they "were too chicken." They apologized profusely to me. For my part, I just considered it par for the course and we needed to focus on the church in Dallas and the dear ones we were attempting to shepherd. Nell, saying no to Benson was just not an option. It is hard to explain. You had to be there. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge PS I have not spoken to Benson since 1988 except for his phone call regarding the death of Don Looper. Due to WL's urging, He wrote me a short letter in 1989 and announced he was coming for a visit.. I wrote back and told him it was not convenient for me and rebuked him for what he was doing toward other brothers. That was the last communication. Last edited by Hope; 08-29-2008 at 11:08 AM. Reason: adding more text |
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08-29-2008, 02:44 PM
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#641 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
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First of all, there are lots of other folks in the LC's who don't fit those 3 categories. They would say they never saw anything they would call "abuse." How in the world does "participation to some degree in authority based hierarchy ... involve us all in idolatry?" Whoa! folks, let's think about this a little more. From what you have said here, then just about every church in the N.T. was idolatrous, every congregation in America, every congregation in the world, past and present, etc. Matt's congregation is idolatrous too, since they have elders, which could be construed by some as an "authority based hierarchy."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-29-2008, 03:39 PM
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#642 |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Hi Ohio,
Let me qualify. I meant "absolute" submission to others. Sorry I didn't make that clear. Meaning ... submit without question. That was the LC leadership dynamic was it not? Regarding the categories, I agree with you. So, there's at least another category--those who didn't see abuse. Weren't these also in unquestioning submission to the leadership? Thankful Jane |
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08-29-2008, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
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Sorry. I couldn't resist.I think you'd enjoy getting to know Matt in person. In fact, that's gonna' happen one day. Sorry to point the finger at you guys, Roger. Matt is a strong guy and he has a good heart. I have the same thought about you. Nell |
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08-29-2008, 05:44 PM
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#644 |
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A funny and interesting response...
I spoke to a wise counselor about many experiences I had while in the LC. I spoke objectively, not drawing any conclusions - just stating factual incidents that occured. I tried to remain unbiased and speak fairly. His response... "Soooo, you were in a cult". I laughed. Hey, I didn't say it. I spent so much effort and time trying to make everything sound okay and average. In the end, it still got called a cult. I still laugh about it when I remember his response. Last edited by blessD; 08-29-2008 at 06:21 PM. |
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08-29-2008, 06:36 PM
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#645 |
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I can totally relate to your words...and until very recently I would find myself still in some ways defending it as "not that bad" because of strange loyalty issues!?! Strange! I guess this helps me understand why some on here are still so stuck on defending parts of this sect.
What causes the intense loyalty to this group!?!? Myself included. |
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08-29-2008, 07:16 PM
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#646 |
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Looking at myself, with regards to this question, some loyalty comes from my love for the people (especially those I lived with in corporate settings). I consider many of them like my own family. However, as I matured, no amount of loyalty could drown out the erroneous teachings I was hearing.
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08-30-2008, 01:52 AM
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#647 |
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What About the Pain?
BlessD and Process,
I am so thankful that you two continued to post both during and after the “fireworks” that occurred on this thread. You may have felt that your voices were almost drowned out. I am writing to let you know that I heard you and am praying for you. What your voices did were to put real people with real Local Church abuse in front of us. BlessD, you mentioned that all of the doctrinal discussions don’t help much with the pain. As I have asked the Lord what I could share with you, I haven’t had anything specific until recently. So, here’s some practical help that you may have already tried: write letters to the ones who hurt you. I did this when I was in my middle-age years. It did help a little. I had read a book that mentioned this, and it said that you didn’t even have to mail the letters. This gave me somewhat of a more secure feeling and helped me write freely. (By the way, I am not a professional in these matters; I’m just mentioning what I read and what I tried.) I remember writing to my father. It took a long time to come up with the words, but I just put myself back in my memory and wrote. I tried to remember all the things that hurt me. It didn’t take too long because he abandoned my mother and me when I was around twelve. I just wrote the letter and put it away. I also wrote to my mother who had died by then. I had always considered her as being loving and caring to me. I realized, however, that I did suffer some abuse from her because of a measure of neglect. I don’t really blame her for this as she was trying to cope with the mess my dad left behind and the fact that he ran off with another woman. I also wrote to one of the Local Church elders who had abused me. I wrote many years after it had occurred, but I did my best to explain the situation and how it made me feel. His mistreatment had begun an ordeal that was extremely traumatic for me and my family and lasted for quite awhile. These are the three letters that come to mind. At a later date, I mailed the two of them. The responses were not very good. At one point, I did get a one-sentence apology from my dad. From the elder, eventually I got a sermon. I think that letter writing does help to get things out of you, but, if mailed, may not get the response you hope for. In other words, writing to the persons who hurt you may help you process through the pain, but the real situation may not change much. This should not dissuade you from trying, however. A letter that is mailed also brings the matter to the attention of the offender, which is proper. One particular elder I went to see in person. His offense to me was done unconsciously. At a point in time, he had told me that he was my spiritual father. As I was working through some of my past Local Church mess, I realized that I should bring this up to him since I had realized that it was an offense to me. The reason that it was offensive is that he spent almost no time with me. I told him that he was no better than my earthly father. He apologized for having hurt me. This elder still characterizes for me several former Local Church elders whom I have met since leaving the system. All of us quit meeting with the Living Stream Ministry Local Churches, but some still retain their former elder personas. These brothers, when they have come to our home meetings, try to take over, as if we assembled for the purpose of listening to them. They don’t seem to know how to be a brother among brothers and sisters. One was so egotistical that I could not wait for him to leave. This one even told his wife to “shut up” in our meeting! We were all dumbfounded. The next time he came to visit, one brother confronted him about it when he put down his wife again in front of us. In the end, he only made excuses for himself. Let me add that a few former Local Church elders who have visited us were not like this. In my opinion, I think that most, though, have a hard time with our lack—lack of organization, lack of “elders,” lack of an order of worship, etc. We like it; and it seems to me that the Holy Spirit likes it too. Apparently, they don’t see a place that they can occupy among us that befits the way they see themselves. Several times, it has been difficult to have a meeting with an “elder” around. Process, I experienced abusive elders in the Local Church, but you had to endure abuse from a Local Church elder at home. I am so sad for what you have had to endure. The Lord is our good shepherd who does restore our souls. In closing, I’ll pass on a verse which has intrigued me of late: For freedom Christ frees us! Stand firm, then, and be not again enthralled with the yoke of slavery (Concordant Literal Version, Gal 5:1). |
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08-30-2008, 02:39 AM
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#648 |
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Posts: 62
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Don’t Put Me in that Bucket
Several on this thread have mightily resisted being lumped together in a bucket. They seem to insist that it’s not fair.
I asked Jesus about this whole situation, and remembered these words: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Matthew fills an entire chapter with a scathing rebuke by Jesus. Jesus lumped all the experts in the law and the Pharisees into one bucket. The other thing that Jesus reminded me is that Nicodemus was a Pharisee, a ruler of the Jews. Early on, Nicodemus went to Jesus at night to find out more about Him. He later tried to influence other Pharisees to listen to Jesus before judging Him, and, finally, he went secretly to help prepare the body of Jesus for burial. To my mind, maybe Nicodemus didn’t deserve to be in the same bucket with the rest of the scribes and Pharisees. I’m sure that there were many different kinds of people in that bucket with many different experiences and individual heart conditions. Jesus rebuked them all with the same “Woe!” |
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08-30-2008, 05:35 AM
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#649 | |
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He recognizes the inherent problem with being in this position of "authority" and how it causes you to be in a bad situation in dealing with other brothers and sisters in Christ. The situation I am in is unique in that I can speak up to some of the elders without fear of retribution. In many situations, this would not be the case. I think there might be one of the elders that might exercise some retribution, but not with intent. He would do it out of a passive/aggressive flaw in his character. Soon, I may have to be part of addressing all of the elders as a witness to what has happened. It's not fun, but I have already expressed my willingness to participate as a witness to help establish the matter properly before the Lord. I'll lose some standing in the minds of at least one or two of the elders and will receive accusations in the process, but if the truth of the matter is established then the Enemy will not be able to lay down roots. In summary, your argument on this point is valid and the group I am in can easily progress into an idolatrous situation if the "authority" that exists is respected even in the face of sin. Sin has no standing in the Lord's mind even if it is done by some "authority". It is sin. A group of believers who allow sin to remain that God brings to the surface which needs to be addressed because of "eldership" or "authority" is one that can easily move into an idolatrous condition. This is how prevalent and pervasive idolatry was in Israel. It was everywhere. This is not my perspective, but God's. Only one king in all of Israel and Judah ever dealt with all the idolatry. Only about 5 ever dealt with parts of the idolatry. I don't think idolatry existed in David's time. Matt P.S. I remembered the following little paper I previously wrote about "God's Perspective" (Click Here) and linked to the Berean's. Here it is again. You'll recognize the "extremeness" in it as you look at it! P.S.S. For those who've gotten on my case for being hard-headed. Trust me, you haven't seen even 20% of it. Ask TJ, she took a 110% and survived, but just bearly. I'm no one's enemy here and no one is mine. I am holding an extreme position on an important issue. You can call me anything and accuse me of anything as a result. I'll live. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-30-2008 at 05:59 AM. |
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08-30-2008, 05:49 AM
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#650 | ||
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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I have also witnessed some tender leaders, possessing gifts of mercy, get "beat up" by the "diligent" one, and today they are gone. Too many stories of this in Anaheim and the GLA. With each departure of a "mercy gift," the whole becomes more skewed. The environment becomes more oppressive, rigid, and legalistic. The "mercy gifts" who do remain, often are effectively silenced, knowing the results of "opening their mouth." This pattern of "the diligent" beating up "the merciful" happened too often in church history; it didn't just happen to us. Perhaps I could substitute another couple phrases to explain this pattern of "the zealous" beating up "the spiritual." This "unbalance" in gifts was also the downfall of the Plymouth Brethren. A.N.Groves, whom I believe was the original and most spiritual of the Plymouth Brethren, once wrote a long prophetic letter to J.N.Darby warning him of this. He addressed so many issues the LC's also face. On this matter he concluded, "the most narrow-minded and bigoted will rule, because his conscience and cannot and will not give way, and therefore the more enlarged heart must yield." Darby never took his fellowship. Less than a decade later, the Brethren were divided, the blessing was over. One exception in history did take place in Bristol. Darby, "the Diligent," the hot-tempered Irishman, ran into a German, a man of God, with the resolve of steel, and child-like faith, who clung to the scriptures, who had the courage and the audacity to stand up to Darby, "the Bully." Darby came to town, pushing people around, and he said "No." His name was George Muller. He loved orphans more than programs.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-30-2008, 06:06 AM
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#651 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Neither extreme loyalty nor extreme hatred is of the Lord.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-30-2008, 08:28 AM
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#652 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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I want to add a little more to my above response to your questions. By absolute submission to authority, I don't mean that everyone under the hierarchy is necessarily carrying out such submission, because there may be levels of passive resistance present. I think a better way for me to say it would be to say that the leadership system is one which expects absolute submission. If the expected submission is not given at any point, the system will carry out discipline or punishment. Isn't this what was present among us in the LCs? Thankful Jane |
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08-30-2008, 08:38 AM
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#653 | |
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Member
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Terry |
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08-30-2008, 08:39 AM
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#654 | |
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Location: Texas
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Good point. I think Don's last post about Benson is a great example of what you describe. Nell |
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08-30-2008, 12:04 PM
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#655 | |
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Member
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Quote:
 Not all localities expect absolute submission. A big difference is whether one writes against the leadership system. If I may be so bold to say Jane, such as what you experienced in Houston is what I define as an obsession. The leadership system you were under expected absolute submssion to this obsession. As I read in an earlier post of yours: "This is the problem we are talking about. We need to understand what happened there. I was loving Jesus, reading my Bible, reading other's Christian testimonies, loving the brothers and sisters and sharing what I was enjoying from times with the Lord in the Word. I was starting to find my freedom in Christ and realizing I did not have to submit to what men were telling me was God with regard to my practical life. I had not one thought against Witness Lee. I spoke not one word against Witness Lee. I was enjoying God and my Christian family. Then came the ax. It was wielded by the power invested in the hierarchy and I bowed to it and kept my face in that dirt until God mercifully lifted me up out of the pit I had been left in." The leadership had a particular obsession which you were not promoting nor opposing. You were being built up in Christ through His Word. Since you didn't share what your local leadership were pushing, your indifference spawned the improper discipline wielded against you. Which in turn adversely affected fellowship with the saints in Houston and presumably in other localities. Had you been in a place like Atlanta, would the same type of obsession result in discipline? I think not. Sister Jane, it's one thing to have improper conduct towards a brother or sister. There's time for repentance and reconciliation. When we turn our back when offenses are brought to our attention, it only exposes where the heart is. This isn't specifically directed towards you, but for any brother or sister that has been truly offended. Terry |
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08-30-2008, 12:27 PM
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#656 | |
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I appreciate your experience and thanks for hearing and praying. I am pondering on the approach of writing letters. Last edited by blessD; 08-30-2008 at 02:08 PM. |
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08-30-2008, 12:28 PM
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#657 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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“Darby came to town, pushing people around.” I don’t think Darby just woke up one day and decided he would be the boss. This started somewhere in seed form and grew. When he began to think more highly of himself than he should and began thinking he had the right to tell others what to do, he was on the slippery slope. When those gathered around him supported his belief, the fallout from going down that slope became much worse. The brethren movement started with all involved on the same level as brothers in Christ and no thoughts of hierarchy. The strength of George Mueller was his “resolve of steel” and “child-like faith” and that he “clung to the scriptures.” This is what we are all called to be like. He loved God and put Him above all else. Darby could not lord it over him because Mueller was serving God only. He treated Darby as an equal, which he was, not a superior. It appears that God was faithful to warn Darby through A. N. Groves’ speaking and through Meuller’s example. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-30-2008 at 12:57 PM. |
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08-30-2008, 12:47 PM
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#658 | |
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08-30-2008, 01:12 PM
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#659 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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It is clear to me from looking into the Bible about mercy, that it does not mean something akin to turning a blind eye. In the Bible, mercy is given to those that love Him, fear Him, hope in Him, return to Him, are His servants, confess and forsake sins, and similar language. Mercy frees us from paying our debt, but it doesn’t appear to be given without our acknowledgment of need for it (by confessing, admitting). (Matt. 18:23-27, Prov. 28:13) I don’t think that being silent when we see our brother sin is to be merciful (not that I think anyone is saying that, but that is a conclusion that could be drawn from what has been said). If we don’t tell him his sin, that is not mercy, that is failure to love (Lev. 19:17). If we love our brother we will tell him his sin. Then we are in a position to show him mercy. The brothers who allowed Benson to take action based on false assumptions and false information and who did not tell him the truth, were not showing him mercy. Neither were they loving him. Their silence hurt him. I was guilty of the same when Benson came down on me. If I had truly cared about him, I would have attempted to tell him the truth and show him his false assumptions concerning the action he took against me. My submission to his treatment was actually a self protective hiding place. Instead of loving him, I was loving myself. Of course, I didn’t understand this at the time, but that doesn’t make it any less true. I was primarily struggling to survive mentally. Somewhere under all of that was also my fear of losing my church family. I can find a number of believable excuses for my silence if I wanted to, but there is no point to do so. It took the Lord a long time (after we were out!) and some difficult circumstances to get me to a place of obedience to his word concerning addressing offenses. I finally spoke the truth in love to Benson in a long letter in the early 90s. The fact that my obedience had no apparent effect at that time is not important. I needed to be obedient to God. The requirement to obey wasn’t nullified by the passage of time. God required my obedience for Benson’s sake as well as my own. Where might Benson be today if the majority of those of us who were around him had been faithful, as each offense happened, to risk ourselves and to tell him the truth in love. Sooner or later we will all be obedient. Offenses don't just evaporate and neither do their longterm effects. There is no statute of limitations on our need as God's children to properly address offenses against each other. According to the Bible, all whom Benson has directly hurt or offended are obligated to communicate with him about the specifics privately, with a few other witnesses, and then publicly. (This is true with anyone for that matter!) Actually, now that I think about it, according to the Bible we are clearly taught to do this before we speak publicly about the offenses of others. Yes, here again are those good 'ole Matt. 18:15-17 commands of Jesus. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-30-2008 at 01:34 PM. |
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08-30-2008, 02:16 PM
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#660 | |
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
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I came to the churches because that was where I found so many who knew and loved the Lord. The main stream denominations that I knew about didn't have much to offer in terms of experience or doctrine. I got a lot of help from the experiential teachings of WL and Titus (though I pretty much held to the systematic theology from Dallas Theological Seminary). I am disappointed (but not altogether surprised) that things have turned out so poorly. I am still struggling with baby and bathwater questions: What to keep? What to throw out? and How to go on from here?
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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08-30-2008, 02:38 PM
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#661 | |
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Last edited by blessD; 08-30-2008 at 02:47 PM. |
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08-30-2008, 03:43 PM
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#662 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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I'm sure there are some exceptions in some localities, depending on who the leaders are; nevertheless, no matter how good the leaders may be, if they have allowed their local church to be included on the big org chart, they are expected to submit completely to the edicts from the top. They cannot say "no" without reprisal. There is no arguing this when you look at what happened in the Midwest. People, families, and whole churches are expendable if they get in the way. My case was not isolated. What happened to me happened in many other localities to many other people. In recent years I have heard from many people whose submission to the leadership was demanded. I have heard some bizarre stories that make mine pale by comparison. The leadership structure I was "under" was not separate from that of other LCs. The LC leadership system is a big tree with lots of branches, but it has one common root and it bears abusive fruit. Thankful |
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08-30-2008, 04:07 PM
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#663 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-30-2008, 04:51 PM
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#664 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Based on all I know at this point, the best and safest course of action for the abused is to leave and find healing in the Lord. Probably the (continued) experience of abuse reinforces the fact that there is no one else nearby who can adequately "protect" the abused. Down the road, if the anointing directs you to write or make contact with an abuser, then the steps taken should be slow and careful. All the ones I know have taken this course. I know you will say, "someone should speak up!" Even such a one as George Muller in his prime, nearly succumbed to the power of Darby and his minions. The gifted and scholarly B.W.Newton in Plymouth had already been overcome by Darby's overwhelming onslaughts. When Darby could not "conquer" Newton in the brothers' meetings, Darby took the battle public, persuading the minds of the congregation. Slowly almost all of Newton's supporters took to Darby's side. Imagine the pressure Muller faced a few yers later. Some in his own congregation were against him. Brothers like JND and TC and BP and WL are powerful men indeed. Their natural talents far outweigh my own. They have great ability to help many and to hurt many. Each of them have done much of both. Hence, some saints love them and some saints hate them. Many saints just can't come to grips with this great paradox. How could they be both good and bad? The facts of history confirm what I say. My point has always been that they don't need to act this way. This behavior does not show largeness of heart. They were only hurting their own ministry. The Apostle Paul was not a patten to us in this way.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-30-2008, 05:55 PM
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#665 | |||
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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"Absolute submission" are two words that come close but don't explain clearly the dynamic at work in such a structure of leadership. I'm trying to say that there was a structure in place that gave the devil the way to exercise evil control over people. The level of control was totally dependent upon the degree of submission. The submission was not instantly something "absolute," but that is what the enemy was working towards behind the scenes and seeking to achieve over time.
When people become convinced that they need to give their loyalty to a hierarchy of men who teach particular teachings, they have taken another master. Did we all do this? No. I don't think so. Did those in leadership who had already taken such a master want this kind of submission from everyone? Yes. I think so. Again, all of this is the enemy at work among us. He is very happy to have us on a slow boat to bondage. Quote:
I totally agree with you on this. Once abused, you no longer have the tools to work with. You have to get better over time and go the slow route as God helps you heal. Others who have recovered from abuse can help. In my opinion, all that has been talked about on this thread is for our learning. It’s just like women today who are learning that they do not have to submit to violent husbands. Women in my mother’s day did not know this and there were no people talking about this. Many women suffered immensely in silence. Today is different because there is a wealth of information and many people and organizations available to help. We are here talking about abuse in a Christian setting. I think this is much more rampant than we realize. If more people have an understanding of what allows spiritual bullies to operate among Christians and learn how to say “NO,” instead of trying to be “Christian,” abuse can be curbed. Our discussion is on a little thread, in one little corner of a bigger forum, on a great big internet--but God tells us not to despise the day of small things. Quote:
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. But again, the speaking up needs to be done before abuse takes place. It is preventative. As Christians, we need to learn to speak up before we let someone hit us with a 2x4. Satan has used a wrong understanding and application of “Christian” teachings about mercy, forgiveness, love, gentleness, meekness, turning the other cheek, etc. among believers to create environments where he can cause brother to abuse brother with both in agreement with the process! I have said to someone (a Christian) who was very abusive to me in my extended family, “You want me to be Jesus to you, so you can be the devil to me.” That’s a little blunt but it took me many years to say it. That is why I love the Matthew 18 verses that I so often refer to. In them, Jesus gave us the tools to address abusers who are our brothers and also the way, in good conscience, to remove ourselves from the reach of the abuser if they won’t stop. There is no hierarchy involved in these verses. We are all just brothers addressing family problems.One of the hardest things for me my last ten years in the LC, was that I had nowhere to turn for help. I read Matthew 18, but my misunderstanding of “tell it to the church” blocked my ability to obey. My Bible said, “Tell it to the elders.” Well, duh, it was them who did it! Door closed. Now I understand "tell it to the church" means exactly that. Tell it to all those believers who know you and also the offending party, who can help the offender hear by also talking to them. If we are blessed to be with other believers who understand the powerful protection the Lord gave all of us in verses like these, and who understand the fact that we are not to ever, ever, lord it over another human being as if we were God, and that we are not to submit to any kind of hierarchy that can interfere in any way in our personal obedience to Christ and His pure Word, then there is hope that the enemy’s ability to set up an abusive environment can be stopped. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 08-30-2008 at 06:02 PM. |
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08-30-2008, 10:19 PM
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But thanks for sharing with us about the elder brother who is willing to be wrong. Now that's Christ. Roger |
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08-31-2008, 05:14 AM
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#667 | |
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What you quoted in your post #666 as an intended attack indicates that you are grasping at straws in an attempt to discredit Matt. You have written that you want to discuss abuse, but you don't. |
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08-31-2008, 06:55 AM
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#668 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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Who isn't "like that"? Matt confessed his fault and you use it against him? Was Witness Lee "like that" too? Nell |
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08-31-2008, 07:11 AM
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#669 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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I think Matt has slowed down a bit on the topic you don't like. Don't you? I am probably just as guilty of having posted about it, so I wonder why I'm not getting some of the heat from you. Not that I want it!! Just to be clear, the "it" which Matt was referring to when he said "20% of it" is a reference to what Matt was capable of in the past before God brought him to his knees in a half Nelson with His strong right arm. Matt is not the same angry person he was capable of being before that. Earlier, you said you didn't know him, so you couldn't really judge. I think that's a safe position. I do know him, as does Nell. The person Matt became after the previously mentioned wrestling match with God is not the same one I had to survive. He is truly a changed person. He is not perfect, but I am here to testify where before he could not be stopped, today he can be. Having a strong will by nature isn't a bad thing as long as it is submitted to Christ. From what I can see in Matt's life, his is. I am confident if God wants him to stop posting about something, he will. Why don't we just pray for him instead of continuing to try and put him down? I don't see anywhere that Matt has been disrespectful, angry, rude, or any such thing. Persistence is not a sin. It could be kin to diligence. He has been persistent (but so have I) to share his point of view. I really don't see the problem. I thought things had calmed down a bit and we were just having some good discussion about abuse. Your post this morning surprised me. Thankful Jane |
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08-31-2008, 12:44 PM
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#670 | |
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This may well be a question for a another thread, but I sense in this post an honesty and willingness to ask these questions. I don't think these questions should be lost in the fray of this thread even though they have been asked before. Matt |
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08-31-2008, 01:01 PM
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#671 | ||
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It's a good thing that I don't have control over many people's lives with this particular characteristic. I don't deny it. I recognize it and acknowledge it. In fact, I've done it in the past in smaller ways and when His light shone on me all I could do was repent to Him and those affected. Hopefully, I have repented to the point that He bestows His mercy upon me. It is much needed. Thank God and praise God that He has protected me from my own characteristics by measuring out discipline to me and breaking me by His hand (not at the hands of other men). I do not submit to men, but to God because through His Son He has set me free to serve Him alone. I encourage everyone to do the same, so that in that day each may stand before the Lord according to their own service to the Lord. I may not always serve well, but I am willing to be judged in that day just as all others will be. My ability to serve has come from His service to me in my life. He once showed me that I could not know how to serve Him if He did not first serve me. I must confess how good and faithful He is and how incredible His service to me has been. We have a good God who is worthy to be praised and we should fear Him alone, not men or what they say if it does not come from the Spirit of the Lord. Your greatest strength and/or weakness depending upon how they are used and whether they are used in or out of the Lord's will can be very tricky. In like manner, the strong desire to follow the Lord can become the trap that the Enemy uses to ensnare you and cause you to fall into something other than truly worshipping the Lord alone. If you have this strong desire and are set in an environment that is highly conducive to or steeped in an idolatrous condition it will be even easier to fall prey to this built-in desire. If I were placed at the head of an organization of men with my natural tendency to be self-assured and strong-willed, surely I would fall prey much more easily. This is a sad truth. (Lord lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the Evil one.) Matt P.S. I think it was you who encouraged me to just say what I have to say. That's why I've been quieter... I've been working on that. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-31-2008 at 01:33 PM. |
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08-31-2008, 01:45 PM
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#672 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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When I read your post, these verses came to mind. Paul knew there were some very good things in his past (the Law, Jehovah God, the priesthood, the temple, etc.) but he said: Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. With God, it is safe for us to throw everything out except our faith in Him. He is the God of resurrection with whom we can trust everything, even our very lives. Whatever things are of Him will come back in resurrection, in His time. When they do they will be new. Paul had the best religious experience and instruction possible but he let all of that go, along with his position and prestige, in order to obey the call to follow Jesus. He didn't try to sort it all out. In time God gave Paul a new understanding about all the things in the law and the prophets, one which was out of the shadows and in the full light of day. It's hard to let go of things we think are of God, but sometimes God asks us to do this. Abraham faced this with Isaac. Isaac was definitely something of God--the fulfillment of His promise to Abraham. But, at one point God asked him to give up Isaac (throwing out the baby and the bathwater!). Because we know that God gave him back, we might fail to grasp the agonizing reality of what Abraham was asked to do. Ultimately, knowing that he had been called to trust God and obey Him, even if it cost him everything, Abraham laid Isaac on that altar. We know the rest of the story. Actually, Abraham had no idea how many of us would one day read about what he did and learn from it, and be encouraged to imitate his faith. I am thankful he didn't count the cost and gave us all opportunity to see God's amazing faithfulness (not only that, he gave God the way to have an Old Testament figure of Christ.) May He be the one who persuades you in all things as you follow Him, Jane |
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08-31-2008, 02:54 PM
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#673 | |
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Note to Admin:
Should Toledo's question become it's own thread, or maybe be moved to the thread Psychological Damage in the LC? It is a really good question, and may get buried in the current thread. (Not that there haven't been responses already ).Toledo: I have been thinking about this question, as well as the one in the Psychological Damage in the LC thread. When I left the LC, I eventually threw out everything. I don't recommend it. And I do mean I threw out everything--- God, Jesus, faith, everything --- and eventually, I brought everything back, one at a time. I think Thankful Jane is exactly right: Quote:
I hope you get lots of responses, and I hope the other thread does also --- these are such good questions. finallyprettyokay |
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08-31-2008, 03:32 PM
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#674 |
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Sorry... It's long...
I’ve been mentioning 1 Corinthians 10 as an important chapter for considering the issues of idolatry. In the Bible I am looking at, it is given the title “Avoiding Israel’s Mistakes”. I don’t think this totally encompassing, but it suffices as a basic idea of what Paul addresses.
It is acknowledged up front that the condition of the Corinthian church as it relates to the issue of idolatry was one which addressed actual physical idols being worshipped by Gentiles as part of what Paul is addressing. In considering the LC, we are not talking about idols carved from wood and stone. Idols of concept and idea are just as much idols as those of wood and stone. Idols in the form of exalted men are also still idols. If these things replace the Lord in our lives and His place of pre-eminence then they bring us into an idolatrous condition. It should also be acknowledged before we start that there were things introduced in the LC of by no fault of those who came into the group. They were introduced by a highly gifted, educated worker who was not working solely for the purposes of God, but had wanted things for himself and his family. He used God’s Word for his own personal advantage and financial gain. He used genealogies to entice and sway many to a false way which turns out to be idolatrous. I know that quite a few don’t like it when others bring this into the light, so let me provide some more evidence of this fact for ongoing consideration. (This will take several posts) I would like to introduce into evidence the events surrounding T. Austin Sparks visits (2 of them) to Taiwan and the eventual split that formed in Taiwan as a result of the disagreement that arose between T. Austin Sparks and Witness Lee. I want to emphasize one most important point. Time has fully demonstrated that T. Austin Sparks spoke as a true prophet and Lee did not. This point cannot be overemphasized. It is very important in the scheme of things. Lee's falseness was his holding to a particular non-essential doctrine of locality which set a boundary on the Body of Christ that was less than the full Body of Christ. For a more complete account of T. Austin Sparks speaking that was at the core of Lee and Sparks disagreement, you can listen to him in his own words. The Chinese translator is Witness Lee. Please review the following thread (click here) and find the link to the site that contains an audio recording of T. Austin Sparks message. The “new” evidence I am producing has been available. It is part of the Morris Fred dissertation from the early 70’s which has been previously posted in it’s entirety (click here) Please note that this paper was funded by a grant of the US Government. The National Institute of Health issued a training grant (NIGMS-1224) to fund this research. Yes, our God is a sovereign God. This paper was not written by someone who was either “pro” or “anti” LC. It was written by someone who was scholarly interested in Philosophy. This does not make it more or less valid. It just makes God sovereign in all things. Morris Fred Dissertation - Page 42-44 (Keep in mind that this was written in the early 70's) Sparks' first visit to Taiwan ran fairly smoothly with the topics of discussion revolving around spiritual revelation and living of the spiritual life. Two years later, Sparks returned to Taiwan and a house was rented for him and his wife and a cook was provided for them. This time Sparks dealt with the nature of serving within the church, an aspect directly related to church organization. He argued the need for greater communication among all Christians and that remaining only within the bounds of the Local Church is against the idea of the universality of Christ. Lee replied that if one doesn't have a glass, how can one put water into a receptacle, alluding to the need for strict boundaries in order for spiritual growth to take place. Sparks' answer was that Jesus (the water) should not be placed in a receptacle as small as a local church for Jesus is too big. After various meetings, Lee attacked Sparks' position in meetings with elders and co-workers. He said he had made a mistake in inviting Sparks to Taiwan and that as a guest, Sparks had no right to criticize or suggest changes in the organization of the Assembly Hall Church in Taiwan. One informant present during a small meeting in which Lee criticized Sparks said that he had been shocked by the harsh language used--that Lee had said that Sparks had a superiority complex and was unwilling to listen to others' viewpoints. The disagreement can be viewed on two levels. In the first place, many of the younger co-workers, who previously had been skeptical of the level of spirituality of foreign Christians, were very impressed with Sparks and his scriptural knowledge. This engendered an interest on their part in reading Sparks' writings and discussing them amongst themselves. Implied in the statements of these informants regarding Lee's reactions is that Lee felt his position as sole head of the church threatened by Sparks. Thus, at one level, the clash was a personal one. At the second level, the important aspect of the "foundation" of the church was at stake. Lee felt that the only scripturally prescribed basis for church organization was the locality and that all church workers should remain within the bounds of the Local Church. Sparks, however, felt that this doctrine was too dogmatic and had the effect of turning the principle of locality (which had been discussed by Nee) into a doctrine one which another sect or denomination was being formed, hindering the desired goal of universal fellowship among all Christians. Thus, he encouraged the co-workers within the various local churches to establish contact with other church groups and to preach the gospel in meetings other than their own. Lee correctly saw this as a potential subversion of the organization of the Local Church as it existed in Taiwan. The result was that some of the co-workers and elders were sympathetic with Sparks' position and others maintained allegiance to Lee. The publication of Sparks' sermons in the "Ministry of the Word" in 1955 was halted (Note by Matt: I believe the halt came in 1957) and the stage was set for a struggle between the two factions which led to the formal split in 1966. Please note the timeframe here. From 1958?/59? -1960 Lee began traveling to the US some. By 1960, Lee stayed in the US. It has been assert that Lee remained in the US starting in 1960 because he was not welcome to return to Taiwan. From 1960-1966 there was turmoil in Taiwan until the split was finalized in 1966. To my knowledge, this breach has never been healed. It has been asserted by some from the US side of the LC that Lee was a little more “repentant” or “subdued” during his initial years in the US. This claim is made to support the idea that he was “under the blessing” during some of the 60’s. I want to say plainly that I do not believe this is true. Lee was in jeopardy of losing the product of his efforts in Taiwan. He had opportunity in the US and being less welcome in Taiwan he took advantage of the opportunity. It is entirely possible Lee was “toned down” in the early 60’s, but his behavior patterns did not change. In fact, he was working stealthily to re-exert control in Taiwan. He remained in contact with his “top lieutenants” in Taiwan during the years of 1960-1966 while he was supposedly “under the blessing” in the US. I believe the truth is more like this. God was pouring out His Spirit in a big way in the US and throughout the world in the 60’s and 70’s. Given Lee’s advanced knowledge of the Word and his claim to a “genealogy” linking him to Watchman Nee, he was able to take control of a system of worship and shape it. Behind him, Satan was subtly working to ensure that this system was one that would actually be a destroyer of God’s faithful. He (the Enemy) did this by exercising particular strength/weaknesses in Lee that had not been fully dealt with by the Lord and were not in full submission to the Lord. (To be continued) |
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08-31-2008, 04:17 PM
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#675 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
While many of us appreciate Matt from all his posts on the other forum, he has caught some of us off guard here, including Roger and myself. The controversy has bewildered many others, and both sides have done too much "discrediting." In fact, that's how it all started, with Matt discrediting the testimony of Hope. Perhaps if Matt had just started a thread about his observations concerning idolatry, and not discredited the testimony of Hope, this whole controversy would never have happened. I felt the line of disrespect was crossed. This tension does not bring glory to God. The conflict could be summarized as those "who are 'concerned' about the LC's and those who feel the whole system is an idolatrous, abusive cult." This is not too dissimilar from the many LC controversies I saw which pitted those who just "loved the ministry" against those who were "absolute." It just seems when the LC's are concerned, the moderates and the extremists can never get along. Sorry about the blunt observations here. I have no intention to offend anyone. I have taken my share of "heat" just for attempting to bring moderation to this thread.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-31-2008, 04:44 PM
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#676 | |
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Posts: 152
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They want me to say that the idolatry in the LC doesn't apply to everyone. Until I back away from that one single point, they probably won't stop objecting. In the case it is not 100% clear, here is what I have not said: 1. LC members were/are idolators. I have specifically avoided the noun form of the word, because no one who is a Christian is. We are all justified in Christ, but we can commit specific deeds that fall into any category of sin. For these, we are asked to repent and receive the full mercy of God. Here is what I have said: 1. All LC adherents were brought into idolatry due to the nature of the LC system and this has impacted/affected both 1st (parents) and 2nd generation (children) of those involved in the LC. The effects of the system were/are pervasive. I've admitted this is an extreme position and that I realize that others don't agree with it. I'll get through what I am saying without too much more delay and then everyone can move on. I've only posted on one thread on this forum and I probably stay with that approach and not bother anyone on other threads. Matt |
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08-31-2008, 04:50 PM
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#677 | |
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Quote:
I'm not being defensive, just holding your witness to points of fact. Please review this thread in from the beginning to verify my statement. If you cannot find it, I will point it out to you. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 08-31-2008 at 04:56 PM. |
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08-31-2008, 05:00 PM
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#678 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Quote:
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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08-31-2008, 05:01 PM
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#679 | |
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Don't stop. We need you, I know I do. I could have PMed you this, and almost did, but I wanted to say it front of two witnesses. Or how ever many. fpo |
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08-31-2008, 06:08 PM
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#680 | |
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I think I finally get it ----
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What many of us point to as a 'honeymoon' in the LC was in spite of the system, in spite of WL. It probably was because of each other. Because, even then, what was sustaining us was each other. That's how we survived at all. Eventually, for many of us, either that wasn't enough anymore or that relationship with 'each other' was interrupted by something -- maybe something like what happened to ThankfulJane. Whatever the case was, whatever the cause appeared to be, I think it really had to do with us growing up, getting strong enough and eventually saying No More. No more abuse. No more destroying. Just because the honeymoon may have been good, doesn't mean the marriage worked. It didn't. fpo note: highlights in quote are mine, not Matt's. |
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08-31-2008, 09:43 PM
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#681 |
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Matt,
I apologize if I have stepped out of line. I mean you no harm. But, as Ohio said, it was out of frustration. Please remember, this is an open forum. You express your opinion, I express my opinion, and others express their opinion. Anyone of us can feel that we are commissioned by the Lord to bring forth a burden, and therefore must be faithful to that speaking. If you have this view then you can never feel that we are trying to stop you from anything. This is a sore spot with some of us because we were trained in a system where one man came forth with what he felt was the "burden" from the Lord, and anybody who dared to contradict him was accused of trying to stop the very move of the Lord. That should not be what is going on here. You say that everyone in the Local Church system is engaging in idolatry, just by being in the group (unless I misunderstand you). I say not so. I say according to the standard you set, everybody in America is guilty of idolatry, and everybody in every church around the world is guilty of idolatry. But you know what that is? It is your opinion versus my opinion and that is all. You feel you are clear from the Lord to bring forth this burden. I feel equally clear to say, "no, you are going too far." But it is still just your opinion verses my opinion, and nothing more. It is not you having a burden from the Lord while I'm trying to stop you. That would make you God's oracle, and me just an "opposer." Lord knows, we've been there; done that. Please accept my apology, and know that I just want to go on in peace. But I would ask you one more time to please consider a separate thread for the subject of idolatry. That's a request and nothing more. It is not the unstoppable speaking from heaven. Roger |
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09-01-2008, 05:44 AM
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#682 | ||
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Quote:
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Here is the only reason I am not taking you up on your request about moving to another thread. The question posed was about how the LCS has affected 1st and 2nd generation LCers and LCer families. I introduced systemic idolatry as a key part of the LCS factor. I introduced it with a broad-brush. I knew then and I realize now that there were going to be objections. Per your suggestion, I am proceeding at this time with presenting a more complete context for why I am sticking with such an extreme position at this time. In my heart, I do not condemn anyone based on the substance of this thread. I can only say that knowing that some will not believe me. I have committed many errors in my life. I have received much mercy from God. The discipline I have received has never match my crimes against the Lord. In His lovingkindness, He has always treated me so well. Sometimes, I haven't liked it but I end up realizing later how he was working for my highest benefit. God's mercy is extended to us all and we are already justified through Christ. I cannot condemn what God does not. I can agree with God that sin is sin, but the judgment we receive for our unconfessed sins is still judgment unto mercy and not condemnation. This is how much love our Lord, God and Savior has for us. To conclude, I am surely putting forward facts, information, and opinions regarding this issue of idolatry with a strong linkage to the topic of this thread. It is the very context of this thread that makes what I am saying more important. I am not talking about idolatry for the sake of idolatry. I'm talking about it because of it's impact on the lives of many. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-01-2008 at 08:41 AM. |
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09-01-2008, 06:11 AM
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#683 | |
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Next Point...
LCS Factor #683
I believe it is important to further solidify the actions of T. Austin Sparks in relationship to Witness Lee and the "ground of locality" disagreement. Morris Fred has noted the following which he gleaned from both sides of the split in Taiwan. Quote:
If you listen to Sparks' message you will hear him specifically address his concerns in front of the whole church there in Taiwan with Lee translating his message. Why did Sparks' tell it to the church? Because Sparks' was being a faithful brother to Witness Lee. It is documented that Lee and Sparks had already: a) Discussed this matter privately. b) Discussed this matter with witnesses to establish the matter (If you want references to these facts, please respond and I will get them). Remember Matthew 18 --> (go privately, go with witnesses, tell it to the church). Well, Sparks' was faithful and did it. He did not stop at telling just a few witnesses. He told the whole church. Lee was furious. Sparks had planted a seed (which was based on the truth in the Word of God) that would cost Lee dearly in his pre-eminence in the Taiwan churches. Fact: Lee was being confronted because he was in error and leading entire congregations away from the Word of God. His error was a false teaching. The false teaching of the ground of locality as a core doctrine. The fruit of this teaching has borne out it's falseness over the past 50 years. It is false. Lee needed this false teaching or he could (or would) lose control. This forms a central lynch pin by which to measure Lee's and the BB's deeds throughout his time in the US and across many different situations in the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's and even into the 2000's by his well-trained successors. T. Austin Sparks argued that the idea of locality was too small for the Lord. Too small for Christ! Lee responded that you had to have a glass in which to put the water! Lee needed a means of control of God's people. Lee needed to be between God and each man for Lee's own purposes. I'm not lifting up T. Austin Sparks. I am establishing his true witness which given many years ago in faithfulness to the Lord. Final Reminder: T. Austin Sparks confronted Lee to the whole church in Taiwan before Witness Lee ever entered the United States. This is important. I will come back to this point later. If you don't think I am heading towards the extremely broad level of idolatry, I will get there soon enough. (To be continued) Matt P.S. Is there a principle of locality which is non-essential? Yes, but it can be lifted too high in your mind. Does it form the basis for a doctrine? No. We meet with those who are geographically convenient, but it is not a doctrine and should not be taught prescriptively or with any emphasis. It's an implicit fact and this is why it is presented descriptively in the Word of God. Furthermore, it surely should not be used to interlink many congregations together across many continents under a single minister/ministry. In the case of the LC, the 'ground of locality' doctrine has really just a back door to re-introducing the Babylonian system of worship (of hierarchical authority under one demi-god (aka oracle of God/minister of the age) with improper submit & obey principles making "lords" of mere men.) We can see from a distance the results of that kind of system in the Roman Catholic Church. If we are willing to look, we can see the results up close in the Local Churches of Witness Lee. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-01-2008 at 07:15 AM. |
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09-01-2008, 07:13 AM
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#684 |
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Member
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Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 424
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I took a little break from these forums, and just now read (most of) this sad thread.
As what seems par for the course on the other forum, here we see people who are ex-members of the LC fighting amongst themselves. And, as at the other forum, the escalation of the conflict lies almost solely on the shoulders of Matt and TJ. I came to this forum to get away from this obsessive nonsense. Here I see the disease manifesting itself at full throttle... against Don (Hope) of all people, a man who was in the LC system but clearly not a member of the inner circle of corruption. Don, I Hope you hang around in spite of the Pharisees. It was good to hear from you again after all of these years. The problem with the LC in child raising is simply this, Witness brought into the eldership the Chinese way of raising kids, where humiliation is accepted by the culture as a proper tool. What WL failed to see is that our culture would not embrace such methods. I too was the target of more than one elder lecture. My reaction was one of rebellion rather than acceptance. I did not accept these men as having the authority to make such pronouncements over me. I am sure that this reaction among the American kids to a foreign culture lies at the heart of why so many LC kids left the LC. The eldership mistook this cultural thing as a spiritual thing and went along. This is not idolatry, this is just the myopic leading the myopic. |
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09-01-2008, 07:21 AM
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#685 | ||
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What is idolatry? Just looking for your definition to interpret your meaning. If it were just a cultural thing, then the Church in Taiwan would not have split over the issues related to authority/submission. Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. It goes beyond a general cultural issue as the evidence indicates. By the way, a number of people in our culture did embrace the methods of Lee, but not a large number relative to the whole population. Matt Quote:
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09-01-2008, 07:32 AM
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#686 | |
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Location: Huntsville, AL
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Is your obseesion with discrediting the LC your own personal idol? |
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09-01-2008, 07:45 AM
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#687 | ||
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Quote:
Does that fit within your definition? Quote:
Interested in finding out? We could take it up in a phone call as this is more conducive to that kind of discussion. I think I added more to my last post while you were posting that you might want to review. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-01-2008 at 07:56 AM. |
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09-01-2008, 10:49 AM
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#688 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
When like-minded observers like Timotheist, who come back to the forum with a fresh perspective, and are startled with what they view as an "obsession" in your posts, then shouldn't you consider his point of view? Observations are what they are, even if they are not loaded with "information." Many have made valid and helpful comments about the "culture factor," and you dismiss Timotheist's comments here categorically. How do you know that "issues related to authority / submission" were not very much on the hearts on the Taiwan saints during the 50's and 60's? To entirely make that conflict a matter of "church ground" is not realistic. Others have written that the saints in Taiwan were very upset over the sale of church property to pay off personal debts. Usually "trigger points" are not the "whole point," conflicts such as that one are complicated indeed. What also troubles me are your continued comments that you are being faithful to God and His word, as if no other dissenting poster is. You make comments that we are not being "honest" with the facts, and afraid of the "light shining" in dark or grey areas, as if you alone are in the light, are honest with our history, approach God in the light, and are faithful to speak honestly. I have written before that your posts not only condemn all LC'ers, but also all of God's people, whether wheat or tares, lukewarm or diligent, serving or visiting, none is excluded. You have inferred that since "all Israel is idolatrous," then all the church must be also. Nothing one can say has altered your views one bit. I see warnings in the N.T. but no such views as yours. For you to say object to Timotheist's "sweeping indictments and broad generalizations," is exactly what I have tried to do with some of your posts. Hoping for peace in Christ Jesus.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! Last edited by Ohio; 09-01-2008 at 11:01 AM. |
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09-01-2008, 12:02 PM
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#689 | |
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Quote:
The Chinese culture brought into many of the local churches cannot be discounted. I, for one, watched the Olympic opening and closing ceremonies with total understanding of how that many people could be brought together into total syncronization. I understood this because of my own experience with this culture. Even with that said, I remember when I kept a sister from Taiwan in my home for a period of time. She had tons of questions which I was not accustomed to hearing or answering. She had her own opinion. She did not understand why sisters here did not wear makeup, high heals, or nice clothing. She did not understand why we did not have big weddings. She said it was very different in Taiwan. So perhaps we had just created our own new culture of Quaker-Chinese-Protestant Fundamentalist-Brethren-Pentacostal-Sort-a-kinda  (I hope you get the point)
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09-01-2008, 12:57 PM
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#690 | |
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1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Hebrews 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) I think I have traversed the spectrum of baby and bathwater scenarios. I was one of those 'lost' children when at 37 I threw it all out and ran from God like a prodigal son. I threw out the baby, the bathwater, the bath tub, the soap, the washcloth - I decided I would be absolutely liberal on all points. Okay, so I found out all things are lawful - BUT not expedient. In short, I was trying to figure out my own opinions since most of my life I did not make decisions for myself. At the end of the road, I found that my salvation remained... what Christ had done for me never changed. I repented for my journey away from Him, but found God loved me just as when he saved me. Everything that had happened to produce faith in me was still there, no matter whether it happened while I was amongst the local churches or Life Church (http://www.lifechurch.tv/ - where I am going now) or when I was a 'lost' child trying to find my way. |
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09-01-2008, 01:26 PM
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#691 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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09-01-2008, 02:04 PM
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#692 | ||
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Quote:
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Lee’s insistence on the teaching of the ground of locality immediately resulted in him gathering those around him that supported his treasured teaching and labeling those who didn’t as ones in rebellion. Lee kept in touch with his “lieutenants” throughout the “rebellion” and solidified his hold over a number of brothers and sisters with his ground of locality teaching. Sparks had warned him that the teaching of the ground of locality would result in a oneness that was narrower than the scope of the whole body of Christ. Lee's teaching proceeded to do exactly that. His “practical oneness” teaching immediately became the basis for excluding as “rebels” all those who did not accept it. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-01-2008 at 02:54 PM. |
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09-01-2008, 02:32 PM
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I agree that there were other factors including mismanagement of funds. There were other factors too. However, what I brought forward is the fact that God through T. Austin Sparks addressed one very specific factor. The doctrine of the "ground of locality". God knew Lee was off on that topic. It was/is a false teaching. I did not introduce this as an exclusive factor. I introduced it as a crucial factor. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I am not putting words in yours. Check what I wrote. Read it again. I believe you've misinterpreted it. Quote:
You are making claims about where I am coming from that are not things I have posited, nor do I think them. Nice try, but I will simply deny them. If you want to confront me because you believe I am terribly wrong in all of this, then let's plan for a get together. Let's invite everyone you've been conversing with (on-line and off-line) and have a meeting to address it. Quote:
I did not dismiss his statements categorically. I said that it was not just a cultural thing. We all know culture had something to do with it and recently it has been stated that this was a key issue. It is obvious in what I wrote that I did not categorically dismiss the fact that culture was involved. I said that it went beyond a general culture issue. Calling out sin is not condemnation. You think I have crossed a line in this regard. I realize that, but I have been careful to stay focused on sinful deeds and not to turn 'idolatry' into making Christians 'idolaters'. You are responding to my comments repeatedly claiming that I am condemning persons. I am not. I am condemning sin. You're partial quote does not account for the fact that I acknowledged I am making sweeping generalizations. I only indicated that I am at least trying to back mine up with information and not just make the broad generalizations. Quote:
I've asked you several specific questions that you have skated past. I have tried to address your points. Care to address some specifics as focused on the substance of the topic rather than the messenger whose message you don't like? I'm still telling you that I acknowledge what you are saying. I acknowledge what you are saying about Timotheist. It's obvious that I am not "hearing" you, but this doesn't mean I am ignoring you. Roger had it exactly correct. I'm saying, yes there was massive idolatry. He is saying, no there was not. It's that simple. The only difference is that I am presenting additional information and you still want me to shut up. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-01-2008 at 02:45 PM. |
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09-01-2008, 02:38 PM
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#694 |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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I agree that the ground of locality teaching was not the only thing present in the 50s and 60s in Taiwan. Authority teachings were clearly being practiced, because Lee was dealing with his "lieutenants." Yes, money and property were also involved. All these are roots of a serious problem.
Didn't we become involved in that problem? Didn't we end up with the "locality teaching" becoming a factor of oneness? Didn't we end up with a hierarchy of Lee and his lieutenants who condemned and labeled others as being in rebellion. Didn't we end up fighting over property? There is great big fruit all over the place for us to look at to make these assessments. When we gave ourselves to Lee's vision and practice, we entered into something that was clearly off track from day one. It was unclean because of what had just happend in Taiwan under Lee's direction. We entered into an unholy alliance with him when we adopted his definition of practical oneness, one that had a smaller scope than the whole Body of Christ. He convinced us we were "standing" for others until they saw. Was this true? We kicked brother's out left and right in the years to come, just like Taiwan, yet we were standing for the oneness of the body of Christ and paving the way for others? In our early days, yes, we experienced the Lord together! (... and we all still love each other, even though we sometimes behave like a dysfunctional family in the hills of Arkansas a la the Hatfields and the McCoys). We had wonderful experiences of the Lord together. How could it have been otherwise? We were all believers with the Lord in us. It was an inevitablility. We gave credit to Lee for our experience, but was it to his credit or was it because of Jesus? I was having an huge experience of the Lord before I ever heard the name of Witness Lee and before I had one thought about something called "genuine" oneness. I don't think I'm alone in that. Was our experience really due to our "high vision" of ground of locality? I can now give a resounding NO. I see now that it was in spite of it. Was it because of our developing hierarchy? NO. It was in spite of it. What was the reason for our joy together? JESUS ONLY! JESUS IN YOU. JESUS IN ME. Did we all become involved in something the Bible calls idolatry? I'll speak for myself. I did. Each one of us has to answer that question for ourself. Maybe God is giving us a head start and time to think about that before He asks us in person. This morning as I was in the Word, I became clear that I had become a worshipper at a high place that Lee set up and I repented in a more thorough way, with more understanding, than I have done before. I'll share more about what I realized about high places in another post. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-01-2008 at 03:02 PM. |
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09-01-2008, 03:25 PM
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#695 |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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This morning I started reading in Malachi. Before my journey in the Word with Jesus was over, I had received a new understanding about high places in the O.T.
In the O. T. all the children of Israel had to go and worship the Lord in Jerusalem. The oneness of the children of Israel was maintained by their going there three times a year to worship. Brothers had to reconcile on the way there because they had to appear before the Lord in good and pleasant unity. (Psa. 133) Jerusalem was where God had chosen to put His name. His name meant that He was there. So, it’s clear that God had a big family and He wanted them to have a harmonious unity. The ten commandments were the rules for His family to live by to keep a good relationship with Him and each other. If they broke them they had to make things right with God and one another, accordingly, when they came to appear before Him. Where do we go to worship Him in the N.T.? Lee, not the Bible, told us that the New Testament reality of Jerusalem was the ground of locality. What does the Bible tell us? (John 4:20-24) We worship in spirit and in truth, not in a physically defined place such as a city locality. God wants us as His family to be in right relationship to Him and in unity and harmony with every member of the body of Christ--His and our big family. We cannot worship Him in spirit and in truth if we have offenses against God and/or others on our conscience. If I go to worship and remember an open offense against a brother, I have to stop and clear up the problem with my brother, then I can come back to worship Him in spirit and in truth. At the moment of our new birth we became part of the one loaf. Lee wrongly told us that the "genuine" oneness had been lost and needed to be recovered. He then told us that the way to recover the oneness was to recover the practice of the ground of locality. This became a major part of our “governing vision,” one that we had and others did not have, our “special calling.” Lee’s definition of oneness was not the same as the Bible’s. It was restrictive. It was too small in scope, just as Sparks said. According to Lee, if you didn’t believe and practice the genuine oneness on the ground of locality, you were not in the genuine oneness. In the O.T., they were forbidden to worship any where other than Jerusalem. To set up a high place in another place and worship there was equal to dividing themselves from the rest of the family of Israel. If they did, they were establishing a oneness of a smaller scope than God defined. God cared about the oneness of His whole family. When they stopped recognizing the whole family by setting up high places, the Bible says they profaned the covenant and dealt treacherously with their brothers. Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? In the New Testament, God’s name (and His presence) is for all His children to enjoy together. We are taught to pray “Our” Father, hallowed be thy name. If we set up a high place that defines oneness in a smaller scope than the whole family of believers, we can deal treacherously against our brother, who is not worshipping in, and according to, our high place, and then proceed to worship without having to clear up the offense with him. To behave in this way is to profane our new covenant relationship with God and one another. Our basis of oneness with all believers is the NAME of Jesus. In the N. T. we do not have to come to a physical place to worship God. We are to worship Him in spirit in truth. Such worship governs our oneness. We have to take care of sins between each other or we cannot worship Him in spirit and truth. Our fellowship with Him is broken by our having broken relationships with others in his family. It is very serious for us to have problems with anyone in the Body of Christ, and we are told to always go the distance to reconcile. So, if we have lost anything related to oneness that needs to be "recovered", it is the practice of reconciling. The scope of oneness in the N. T. is the whole body of Christ. Lee set up a definite high place (a new definition of oneness, smaller in scope than the whole body of Christ) and whoever accepted this, began to worship at another altar. He and his followers offended God by making the scope of His family smaller than it is. Those in the LCs only keep oneness among themselves and deal treacherously with their brothers who are not worshipping at their high place. They offend the body of Christ and even feel good about it, believing they are serving God. Thankful Jane |
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09-02-2008, 06:00 AM
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#696 | |
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Member
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Posts: 152
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Church Ground, Preaching & Positional Authority by Morris Fred
I'm introducing some additional source material for review (and yes, I am still going somewhere on topic with all of this! This is still about the LCS factor
). This is another excerpt from the Morris Fred paper. In case anyone is not aware, I am using this paper to establish a key fact. Witness Lee was the same before coming to the US. His temporary lull in bad behavior may not have been at all about repentance but rather about re-exerting control in Taiwan. The good report about Lee in America was one of the tools used to re-establish his pre-eminence among the Taiwanese by the late 60's/early 70's. Lee needed leverage in Taiwan in order to re-establish his pre-eminence among as many of the Taiwanese churches as possible.It should also be noted that the same tools Lee used in Taiwan to construct a system of worship that was not wholly focused on the Lord, he also used in the United States. There were no differences. Please note that Morris Fred has rightly detected three of the major ills that we have spoken about on these forums. 1) "Church Ground" (i.e. ground of locality) as the organizational base of the church. The "ground of locality" was among Lee's first topics in the US. I will find and quote Jim Reetzke on this issue who has written a pro-LC version of LC history. He notes that Lee introduced these concepts of the "ground of locality" from the very beginning of his time in the US. The So. Cal brothers were anxious for Lee to stay in the US so that they could establish a church on the "proper" ground and Lee finally did stay. They had already been meeting in LA, but they were desirous of being on the "proper ground of locality". Hmm...??? Do we see a problem here? Important Note: I will return to this fact in another post, but note for now that Lee had just been admonished by T. Austin Sparks on this issue and this didn't sway Lee. It strengthened his choice on this doctrine. See Titus 3:10 - the work "heretick", "factious", or "sectarian" comes from the Greek word: hairetikos - 1 fitted or able to take or choose a thing. 2 schismatic, factious, a follower of a false doctrine. 3 heretic and hairetikos comse from hairetizo - 1 to choose. 2 to belong to a sect. Yes. Lee made a strong choice in regards to this teaching. This forms the basis of heresy if the chosen doctrine turns out to be false. As a doctrine, I believe it has proven to be false. 2) "Positional Authority" (i.e. deputy authority) We know that he introduced the concepts of "Deputy Authority" in seed form in the mid-sixties to a future inner circle of men who could potentially form one of the layers of hierarchy in this system of worship. This information was not given out freely, because if it were it could fall into the hands of those who would recognize it's source (the Enemy). We know that where the Local Churches ended up was under a system of hierarchical control that verbally denies hierarchy, but behaviorally exhibits it to a tremendous degree. 3) "Preaching" (i.e. God's oracle, Minister of the Age) I don't think I have to say much about this one. ---------------------------------------------------------------- The above facts (which will be repeated below) are highlighted because there is a tendency among LCer's and ex-LCer's to discount outside voices. In this excerpt you will read about the methods that Morris Fred used to identify these three items. In addition, 40+ years of additional evidence from other case examples of problematic situations have proven Mr. Fred to be true. After this post, I will present additional anecdotal evidence from Mr. Fred's paper that he shares as reports from those involved in the Taiwan split. Keep in mind: This was written in 1972-75 Quote:
Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-02-2008 at 06:21 AM. |
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09-02-2008, 06:09 AM
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#697 | |
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Posts: 152
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Quote:
See this post: http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showpost.php?p=228048 It shows the nature of the contact and the players at the "witnessed" discussion between T. Austin Sparks and Witness Lee. Matt |
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09-02-2008, 06:52 AM
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#698 |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Doctrine Vs. Practice
Hi Matt,
Thanks for bringing to the forum this historical document that gives full exposure to both sides of this discussion. I would say that the full picture shows the degree of problems that resulted from the exclusive position that the ministry took concerning the ground of oneness, but does not prove the teaching itself is heretical. I did look at T. Austin Sparks message that I found on ”the other forum,” where again, the doctrine was not assailed, only that if the doctrine were carried out with an impure heart, the results would be damaging. I do acknowledge the damage that has been done to the churches by the carrying out of this doctrine in the way of exclusivity, but cannot declare this teaching to be heretical, as surely there can be an expression of one church in each city; all you need to do is read the New Testament. Can this be realized today? I’m not sure, as the differences that make each group unique may be near impossible to bridge, but this does not take away from the fact that the ground of oneness can be realized today if sought after by those whose hearts burn for the establishing of one testimony as led and established in the Holy Spirit. Yours in Christ, Shawn |
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09-02-2008, 07:52 AM
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#699 |
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So, am I getting this right? From almost the very beginning, there were questions concerning money, morality, Lee, and his son? And Deputy Authority. It was all there from the beginning.
We were really duped. fpo Oh, by the way --- a few posts back, blessD mentioned a sister from Taiwan who did not understand the way American sisters were so austere, and questioned our lack of wedding festivities. BlessD -- did you know that WL's daughter, married just a few years after my husband and I, had a wedding that cost a princely sum? Always two standards ---- no wonder WL didn't like the book of James. He perfected being a respector of persons. Heck, he made doctrines about it. Go for the good material, all that bunk. Duped No More. |
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09-02-2008, 08:08 AM
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#700 |
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No, I did not know about WL's daughter's wedding. Yes, the problems were clear in the history. I read Matt's post of history, then I read a past post with John Ingall's experience - wow, hind sight, aye? If I only knew then, what I know now it sure would have saved a lot of grief.
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09-02-2008, 08:11 AM
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#701 | |
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Quote:
Is all this in a book somewhere? (or, are you working on that one )
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09-02-2008, 09:05 AM
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#702 | |
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Member
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Taking a break
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Hello and good to hear from you Timotheist, The culture thing is a very important item. We had some anti-modern, Puritan, Plymouth Brethren, Madame Guyan (sp) mysticism, and Chinese Culture mixed together and identified as spiritual. I am sorry about some of the elders puting this on you when you were younger. If I was one, I repent. To the Forum as a whole: I need to take a break from active participation for a while. I am in a very busy time at work but mainly I need the time to write some hymns for an uncoming conference in Westminster. We will have four meetings starting Friday, Oct. 17 thru the Lord's Day morning. At the current time, the Lord is leading toward the Good News of Jesus Christ as revealed in the book of Romans. Rom 1:15-17, Thus, for my part, I am eager to proclaim the gospel, (Good News) to you also who are in Rome. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, (Good News), for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith." I am busting with eagerness and excitement regarding the Good News. IT IS THE POWER OF GOD. Perhaps you have seen the dancing and shouting in the streets of the cities and towns of the USA when victory in WWII was anounced. That good news produced a reaction. When we hear the GOOD NEWS it produces a reaction in us. There is power in the Gospel. I had better stop before I get too carried away.By the way, if any of the forum would like to join in the fellowship, email me and I will get you any necessary information. dfr144@aol.com In Christ Jesus there is Hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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09-02-2008, 09:13 AM
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#703 | |
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Posts: 42
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Quote:
Then Witness Lee argued with TAS saying, "We say that the Church Ground is one locality one church, which means Unity in one city." TAS said: "If you mean that the Church Ground means Unity in one city, it means that you agree with my opinion, and disagree with yourselves! One locality or one church teaching or other teachings cannot bring Unity among Christians. Only Christ Himself can bring Christians true Unity, not only in one place, but also in other places! The truth is: Things divide; Christ unites!" When I heard this, it was a second shock to me; in fact, the Church Ground teaching collapsed within me and I totally abandoned that teaching from that moment. Witness Lee argued again, but TAS said, “If you follow the Holy Spirit's leading and do something according to the examples in the New Testament, that is good, but don’t say 'this is the only way'! The Holy Spirit is too big to comprehend.” (As I understand it he meant: Don’t say that other Christian bodies are all concubines and are not the Church.) Then TAS said: "There is no need to continue this kind of meeting!" And immediately the meeting ended! We see from this posting that Witness Lee apparently had an agenda. He always preached and taught for us to come back to the pure Christ. But apparently he only wanted us to come back on his (WL’s) terms. It would have been better for us all to realize that “the Holy Spirit is too big to comprehend” and in turn to have questioned Witness Lee’s insistence on his teaching of “one locality one church.” However, as young, idealistic people—many newly saved—we jumped on the bandwagon as Witness Lee “rode” the tide of the Jesus Movement in the United States and we evidently became his “franchises.” I agree with finallyprettyokay that we were really duped. |
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09-02-2008, 09:53 AM
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#704 |
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Member
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
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TJ,
Here are a few quotes from a previous post. Any bold phrases are from me. Please quote my bitter accusations against you so I can see what you are talking about. No I don’t see how what I have done is the same. You’ll need to explain how. I do not find a bitter tone or resentment. These are comments made about the actual event that actually happened. Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me. but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal. In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it. I can see how this offended you, however, I wasn’t talking to you directly and it was not meant to be hateful to you. It was meant to be kind to BlessD. I made a choice between taking care of how you might feel and how she might feel. I chose to take care of her. I would do it again. I do not hate you at all. I just don’t like how you have been behaving on this thread. There is no question that you have never harmed me in any way. I also have no intention to harm you. I am now aware you are offended and I am sorry that I offended you. I am willing to go the distance with you to clear up the offense. If you need me to be more specific, then I will need more specific explanation of what you want me to apologize for. Above are a few quotes from your post. I have no desire to get into a “prove it debate.” Over the past months, you have basically taken a mode of “be on the alert to put down whatever Don says since he was once an elder.” But I was never an elder related to you nor did I ever have any interaction with you in that capacity. I knew you as a very intense person and have assumed that many of your posts and choice of language were only a reflection of your personality and that I was sometimes caught in the crossfire due to my alleged position in the Texas churches. I have always kept in my mind an image of you as I knew you and John when we were in Houston together. You both were first and foremost dedicated lovers of Christ with a heart for people in the Kingdom of God and a desire for those who were not that they could be saved. Because of your statement, “I just don’t like how you have been behaving on this thread” I now realize that the sharpness and put down of recent language had nothing to do with Benson, Ray etc but reflected how you desired to treat me in the current context. I will let that go and accept whatever you choose to do. You have enough on your plate without needing to take on an old man. I desire only the best for you and John. I am certainly the better off for knowing you when we were in the church in Houston together. I am sorry that our fellowship was interupted due to past events, events that I was 98% in the dark about until you sent out a blanket letter sometime in the 1980s. I prefer to drop my request rather than get into a “prove it” exchange. Yours in Christ Jesus, Hope, Don Rutledge Last edited by Hope; 09-02-2008 at 10:01 AM. Reason: clearer language and spelling |
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09-02-2008, 10:54 AM
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#705 | |
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I hear your point and I understand that many feel we can draw a distinction on the issues related the "ground of locality". If you have some time to listen to T. Austin Sparks message I think it would be valuable to consider. He makes a particularly strong point on this fact. It goes something like this (i'm paraphrasing): "It is a very great peril when we try to resolve a spiritual reality into a technical system". ... "It has been my (TAS) struggle to avoid this problem". He's saying that when we try to put our hands on this spiritual reality of our oneness with all believers we mess it up and it is very dangerous when you try it. My main point is that the "ground of locality" is heretical as a doctrine. When men try to implement it as a "practical" reality there are always problems. I believe that this happens because trying to implement it "practically" goes against the reality of what God is doing. Our oneness with all believers is something we acknowledge in our hearts but we cannot implement in practical reality. Here is why I say this... If we try to bring everyone into the same "practical expression" it requires us to use the "tools of men" (incorporation, buildings, scheduled meetings, etc.) None of these things do anything to promote or take away from the fact that we are one. This is a reality. It just is. Nothing men can do can advance it. The only thing we can do by trying to implement it among ourselves is to deny the reality of our oneness by trying to make some "practical expression" of it. We implicitly "divide" and "section" off the Body of Christ from itself in the very attempt. It's one of those oxymoronic items. If you try to do it, you fail. If you don't try to do it, then you may still fail if your heart isn't right. The only way it can be done, is to not do it but acknowledge the reality of it. It's unsound doctrine to teach others that they should try to implement it. What is sound is helping each person learn how to be one with every other member of the Body of Christ. This isn't a group thing. This is a one at a time issue. What I am talking about here is faith. We believe we are one because we are one. To attempt to make a "practical expression" of it like Lee did is actually an act of unbelief. It's basically saying, "we are only one if we can see it with our eyes." I don't believe that is faith. I believe it is unbelief. Matt P.S. I realize there are other views on this and I've got no corner on the market on what I am saying here. However, I do think that the "ground of locality" issue has been tested, reviewed and it will fail again and again. God will not fail in this, but men always will. In order to succeed you have to have control over the whole Body of Christ. Only Jesus Christ has that! He is the Head!!! Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-02-2008 at 11:09 AM. |
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09-02-2008, 11:12 AM
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#706 |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Thanks Matt,
Your words do show the way to oneness is not to try to practically implement it and hope the Spirit will justify the actions, but to seek to be one with all our brothers and sisters, where ever the Lord has placed us, and the oneness will appear; not of our efforts, but through the manifestation of the Spirit of God ruling in each heart. The missing ingredient was love from a pure heart for all of God's children; without this essential virtue, pride and prejudice usher in yet another denomination. Grace to you, Shawn |
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09-02-2008, 12:06 PM
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#707 | |
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Terry |
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09-02-2008, 12:08 PM
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#708 | |
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Quote:
Well, the story about Sparks and Lee is interesting but certainly far from proving some kind of heresy concerning the ground of locality. Hate to say it, but if your idolatry proclamation is based on this ... whew! Ever hear the story about the foolish man building his house upon the sand? SC |
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09-02-2008, 01:19 PM
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#709 | |
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Quote:
Even if we are unwilling to say that the "ground of locality" is not heresy in it's doctrinal form I believe we can say that it is not completely sound doctrine because it implicitly divides the Body of Christ. You cannot take a stand on the "ground of locality/ground of oneness" like they do in a Local Church without implicitly dividing the Body of Christ inside any recognizable geographic region. To me, this makes the concept of "ground of locality" unsound. Setting aside Lee's narrower conception of the "ground of locality" does nothing to disturb the oneness of the Body of Christ. Details on "Sound Doctrine": G5198 hugiainō From G5199; to have sound health, that is, be well (in body); figuratively to be uncorrupt (true in doctrine): - be in health, (be safe and) sound, (be) whole (-some). G1319 - didaskalia From G1320; instruction (the function or the information): - doctrine, learning, teaching. 1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 2Ti 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Tit 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-02-2008 at 01:33 PM. |
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09-02-2008, 01:28 PM
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#710 | |
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Quote:
SC, let me ask you a question. Is the LC type congregation in your locality unique in anyway from other gatherings of believers in your locality? If so, what is it's uniqueness? Yes, I did hear about that story about the foolish man building upon sand. I think I've thought about it in regards to Lee and his desire to build God's House on the "ground of locality"! Sorry, I couldn't resist that one.The "Rock" is Jesus the Messiah. This is the only firm foundation. All else is shifting sand... Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-02-2008 at 01:49 PM. |
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09-02-2008, 05:02 PM
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#711 | |
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You're tossing me softballs here. Is our group unique? What makes it so? Yeah, it's unique. It's unique because we don't have a name. Do you have any idea how much grief that has caused us over the years? That one fact is a huge separator from everyone else, trust me. Every single time I'm forced to identify "my church," I have to decide whether to go into paragraph mode or simply tell them, "The church in __" and hope it ends there. All the churches who truly take no name have this "problem." So they're all unique, LSM churches, non-LSM, whatever. My beef with the LSM on this point is that they in fact have made the "Church in __" their names. Case in point: Raleigh, NC where they became "The Local Church in Raleigh" or some such thing. Anyway, I assure you that if your congregation would drop its name, you would instantly find out how much this makes you unique. SC |
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09-03-2008, 06:06 AM
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#712 |
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Location: Texas
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There's another phenom in this "ground of locality" thing that has always puzzled me. There was a time when The Church in Minneapolis, for example, actually met in Hopkins, MN. I'm sure most of you can come up with examples of this. I've heard the explanation for it, but it never made sense to me. Why not "The Church in Hopkins"?
This is Gerrymandering--Local Church style. It's also a de facto admission that the "ground of locality", as a doctrine, is flawed. Doctrinally speaking, you meet with the church in your city. Either the city limits signs mean something or they don't. The doctrine says the signs mean something. The practice says they don't. The practice says you meet where it's convenient, or you meet in the city where you found the best real estate deal. The "ground of locality" and "practical expression" are just words. Not even the Local Churches can or are willing to practice the doctrine to the letter. Nell Last edited by Nell; 09-03-2008 at 06:16 AM. |
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09-03-2008, 06:48 AM
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#713 | |
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Quote:
But, my question isn't about whether it is difficult for you to answer the question about the name of your gathering. My question was about the uniqueness of your group? What is it's uniqueness relative to other groups in your locality? Is your uniqueness in the fact that you don't take a name? Or is it something else? Is it because, in your mind, you "stand" on the "proper" ground? Matt |
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09-03-2008, 06:51 AM
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#714 |
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The Ground of Locality: A Pretend Doctrine
Or how about the meeting hall being in one city and all the members living in the suburbs. Or a church in one city and a guy from that city being an elder in another church in another city.
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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09-03-2008, 06:55 AM
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#715 |
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SC if you don't have name for your church who to people write checks to for offerings? And which organization gives them a charitable donation receipt for their tax write off? And what name is used to buy real estate and to sue over real estate? Or are all those places left blank on the checks, receipts, contracts, court documents, etc?
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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09-03-2008, 07:42 AM
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#716 | |
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09-03-2008, 08:13 AM
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#717 | |
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The churches of the NT have no names ... and yet they do. This is the same thing. On the one hand, they're just the local churches of that city. On the other, they are "The church in ___." The world demands a name and sees through that lens. So to them, "The Church in ___" is a name. But to we who buy into this no-name thing, it isn't a name, plain and simple. I'm not fighting for this issue. If you want to say we name ourselves, go for it. I do know that the stance we have taken is awkward among other Christians in so many ways. They aren't comfortable with it. As with many doctrinal quibbles, you can point out a lot of hypocrisy, misapplication, etc. with this principle. What you can't do, however, is find anything in the Bible that supports denominating (naming) churches. So you lose this argument every time. SC |
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09-03-2008, 08:17 AM
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#718 | |
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Quote:
Oh, yeah, we're unique in many ways. Trust me. Our meetings don't have a pastor, don't have a song leader, don't have many participants, don't pass the plate, don't involve self-improvement talks, don't have much adornment of any kind. Some of our uniqueness is a bad thing: we're uniquely unattractive in many ways, sad to say. Some is a good thing. But anyone and everyone who visits us is left with the sensation, this group is different. SC |
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09-03-2008, 09:34 AM
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#719 |
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SC I frankly don't care about the name thing. No awkwardness felt over here. Sorry. Fact is: you have to have a name and it has to be registered. That's just a legal fact of life. So why live in pretense about it?
Do you think someone in your church writing out a check doesn't know there's a name of an organization that has to go on the payee line? How concrete is that for you? Do you think when the IRS wants to see your church's filing for non-profit status that you can leave the name of the filing entity blank cause ya know: we don't have a name! Go ahead and do that and see what happens.
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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09-03-2008, 09:44 AM
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#720 |
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SC just because something is not in the bible doesn't make it intrinsically evil. Youth conferences are not in the bible. Bible conferences are not in the bible. There was one council in Jerusalem over an issue. Once resolved the council ended. Meeting halls are not in the bible. Non-profit organizations are not in the bible. Even the whole bible was not completed during the early church.
So....if you really want to get back to the NT early church age. End all conferences. Shut down all meeting halls. Use cash only transactions and give no tax receipts. Cut out about 1/3 of the NT. Resurrect the apostles. Then maybe you might begin to get an approximation of the situation. Just pretending you don't have a name is not gonna cut it. It's kindergartenesque at best.
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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09-03-2008, 10:26 AM
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#721 |
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DJ,
Of course. I agree whole-heartedly. The only reason I mentioned it is in response to those who try to say the ground of locality teaching isn't in the Bible. You know, that it's a heresy and all that. You see, I fight fire with fire, unlike you, who fights fire with cries of "Make the fire go away! Make it go away!" or some other diversionary tactic. (I'd put a smiley here to show you I'm just messin' with ya, but I really don't like them.) SC |
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09-03-2008, 10:52 AM
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#722 |
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Posts: 318
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The ground of locality isn't taught in the bible. Do you think God would be that stupid?
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My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ! |
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09-03-2008, 11:05 AM
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#723 | |
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At the end of my last post, I mentioned that there were other complaints regarding the authority of Lee that were also mentioned from the Taiwan church split.
I am going to share some of them now. These anecdotal examples will go to further solidify the fact that Lee's behavior was not appropriate back in Taiwan. Currently, I am specifically bringing forward information to shine light on one important issue: Many have indicated that they felt that everything was good in the "glory days" of the US version of the LC. They believe that over time it became corrupted. Much of the credit for the "goodness" of the early days of the LC were the great teachings and depth of knowledge of Witness Lee. Before Lee was solidified in writing by the LSM as the "Minister of the Age" and "God's Oracle" he was spoken about by many members as "Moses" and "a modern or current day Paul". These statements and others like them were not necessarily codified, but they were shared around by many individual participants. I've heard these references to Lee from multiple corners of the US. Now, let's compare these lift a man up comments which go all the way back into the 60's against Lee's behavior before he entered into the US. Why is this so important. It goes to the fact that many were willing participants in lifting a man up on high. Why did they do it? Because he had so much lofty (aka high-peak) knowledge? Because his ministry was so rich? In response it's quite easy to say, "everyone has problems", but the real question is why does anyone feel any need to defend Witness Lee's bad behavior? What is it that we appreciate that causes us to defend him? I am not denying the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in the past. I continue to point to the fact that the mixture was present from the beginning. This is important. From Morris Fred Paper: The exact text has been preserved, but the Example titles have been added by me. Example #1: Medical Clinic (aka church involved in business venture) In the early 1950s, a clinic was established by the church, headed by a Chinese within the church with the assistance of two Western doctors who belonged to the Local Church in Taipei. Disagreement arose regarding the participation of one of the latter. The ultimate result was that the clinic was closed and the structure built for its use became a living quarters for young brethren attending university in Taipei. Example #2: Unauthorized Marriage Another case metnioned was that of a marriage between two church co-workers. Without seeking Lee's approval these two individuals were married. This apparently angered Lee. Whether he opposed the marriage or was merely angry because they did not first consult him is unclear. The result was that although the two initially remained within the church, their stipend as co-workers was cut in half and this caused them great difficulty. The brother who had introduced the couple was sent to Hwalien (on the east coast of Taiwan) as punishment; later, after helping Lee with a manuscript, he was recalled to Taipei. Here it was noted that one of the methods used by Lee in maintaining the loyalty of his co-workers was his control over their residence and other rewards. His closest followers were given the more prestigious positions in Taipei. Moreover, in the training meetings led by Lee, everyone had a set place according to how well they had performed the previous year. It was noted Lee would sometimes move someone from the first to last row in one year, causing the individual to lose face in the eyes of his fellow workers. If an individual had done exceedingly well, he would be moved to the editorial room and placed in charge of church publications. Example #3: Distribution of Money to Co-workers Moreover, while the church claimed that stipends to co-workers were distributed according to anonymous contributions by the membership, these often were not enough to maintain the co-workers' livelihood. Therefore, unspecified funds were distributed among the workers. One informant noted that Lee himself would decide the amount, place it in an envelope to be given to the elder at the First Assembly Hall who serves as the church's accountant. The result is that Lee used his economic stranglehold over the co-workers to assure their loyalty. Example #4: Decision Making One of the prime targets of those who disagreed with Lee was the reality of decision-making within the church. It was repeatedly pointed out that the ideal picture painted was one in which the elders of a local church met to discuss problems, prayed together, and reached a consensus on action. However, it was maintained by these individuals that in actuality Lee and several elders and co-workers closest to him made the decisions and presented them to a group of elders who were expected to offer their "Amens." The effect was that one could not clearly perceive Lee's direct role in the process of decision-making for the announcements and innovations were made only by his representatives among the elders. Example #5: The BIG MAMA In 1960, Lee had gone to the United States where he began establishing churches with the main headquarters in Los Angeles. It was during this period of 1960-1966 that much of the rebellion against his authority was taking place in Taiwan. His means of maintaining control over the development of the church in Taiwan was through close correspondence with top lieutenants who as elders could control the meetings (Shr, 1970, 8). These men also informed Lee regarding activities deemed rebellious. Bibliographic Reference: Shr, Bai Cheng, et al. - 1970 - A Public Letter for God's Children Regarding the Basic Mistakes of Li Chang Shou (aka Witness Lee) - A Leaflet Example #6a & #6b Preface: The final aspect of church organization discussed by those who left the church was the ideal of independence of each local church under the authority of its elders. While the co-workers are considered to be under the authority of the apostle, the elders are in charge of the management of local church finances and activities. The spheres of responsibility were confused, however, by the fact that several individuals held positions both as co-workers and elders in various local churches. Two cases relate the nature of this contradiction. Example #6a: Local Autonomy Once the dispute began among members in the Taipei Church, the church in Tainan was confused and desired to maintain independence. In letters sent to church headquarters, they requested that no one be sent from Taipei. Nevertheless, one of Lee's lieutenants was sent to Tainan which led to dissension among the brethren there. This also tended to point out to the elders in Tainan that their independence from control by Lee was merely nominal. Example #6b: A further example involved a brother who before the split was considered by many to be second in command to Witness Lee. He described the situation in Taiwan and noted that he was bothered by the fact that he no longer felt he could follow Lee. I heard a tape made by this brother in 1970. In it he said that he had a premonition that Lee might kick them out of the church: Quote:
Do you hear these stories echoing into the US through the last 4-5 decades? I do. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-03-2008 at 12:11 PM. |
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09-03-2008, 11:08 AM
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#724 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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Quote:
Nell |
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09-03-2008, 11:32 AM
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#725 | |
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Posts: 152
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Quote:
This is whole "name" vs. "no name" is a conundrum. The reason why the LC says, NO NAMES, is because they believe it indicates "Christ PLUS Something". They are actually concerned about the fact that "denominating" is dividing the Body of Christ. It turns out that not "denominating" based on the "ground of locality" also divides the Body of Christ. Not taking a name is still "Christ PLUS Something". There isn't a way for a group of people to take a stand for oneness without implicitly dividing themselves from even that one little true believer hiding in the back of the Baptist church down the street. You can only make the choice in your heart. God sees it and it is evidenced when you are with other believers by your receiving of them. No men can control this. Our God will be honored as Lord. He made it this way. Any man who tries to get between each one of us and His Lordship over us will fall. When the Lord comes back I will get a NEW NAME. The gatherings I attended will just disappear... So, I think this whole issue of "name" vs. "no name" is wood, hay and stubble. What is not wood, hay and stubble is that I receive all those who the Lord receives. When I have a problem doing that, I have to interact with the Lord until my heart is right with Him. I may also have to interact with my brother/sister in Christ to work out any offenses/problems. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-03-2008 at 12:13 PM. |
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09-03-2008, 12:28 PM
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#726 |
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Location: USA
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SC,
Trying to be unique is a form of denominating. Taking pride in uniqueness is denominating with calligraphy. |
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09-03-2008, 12:31 PM
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#727 |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Dear Hope,
Before I could respond to your post #704 (http://www.localchurchdiscussions.co...&postcount=704), I had to re-write it so I could understand who was saying what and to whom. To do this, I had to go back to the original posts. I have reconstructed your post to clarify it using names. I didn’t want to misunderstand you. If what I represent here isn’t a correct understanding of your post, please let me know. Here it is: Don to Jane: TJ, Your post is so full of bitter accusation against me. I have to ask myself why. Can you see that you are doing the very thing you accuse the LCS of doing? Jane to Don: Please quote my bitter accusations against you so I can see what you are talking about. No I don’t see how what I have done is the same. You’ll need to explain how. I do not find a bitter tone or resentment. These are comments made about the actual event that actually happened. Don answered Jane by quoting parts of a post by Jane written to BlessD: To BlessD from Jane (bolding added by Don): ...Obviously the most glaring thing of importance was the very abuse that you went through--abuse which was nothing less than a psychological and spiritual gang rape, and this was done in front of your parent's who sat there silently watching. Words fail me. but the fact is that any other response to your story is not normal. I am sorry you had to have insult added to injury by having your story questioned. It made me think of someone who finally is able to come forward and report a shameful crime who finds themselves being questioned like they were the criminal. In this case it seems that the prime directive quickly became minimizing your story or finding a way to make it go away. BlessD, I am sorry for this treatment. You didn’t deserve it.... Don also quoted the following from Jane which was part of her earlier response to Don about the post to BlessD: Jane to Don: I can see how this offended you, however, I wasn’t talking to you directly and it was not meant to be hateful to you. It was meant to be kind to BlessD. I made a choice between taking care of how you might feel and how she might feel. I chose to take care of her. I would do it again. I do not hate you at all. I just don’t like how you have been behaving on this thread. There is no question that you have never harmed me in any way. I also have no intention to harm you. I am now aware you are offended and I am sorry that I offended you. I am willing to go the distance with you to clear up the offense. If you need me to be more specific, then I will need more specific explanation of what you want me to apologize for. Don then commented on all the above: Above are a few quotes from your post. I have no desire to get into a “prove it debate.” Over the past months, you have basically taken a mode of “be on the alert to put down whatever Don says since he was once an elder.” But I was never an elder related to you nor did I ever have any interaction with you in that capacity. I knew you as a very intense person and have assumed that many of your posts and choice of language were only a reflection of your personality and that I was sometimes caught in the crossfire due to my alleged position in the Texas churches. I have always kept in my mind an image of you as I knew you and John when we were in Houston together. You both were first and foremost dedicated lovers of Christ with a heart for people in the Kingdom of God and a desire for those who were not that they could be saved. Because of your statement, “I just don’t like how you have been behaving on this thread” I now realize that the sharpness and put down of recent language had nothing to do with Benson, Ray etc but reflected how you desired to treat me in the current context. I will let that go and accept whatever you choose to do. You have enough on your plate without needing to take on an old man. I desire only the best for you and John. I am certainly the better off for knowing you when we were in the church in Houston together. I am sorry that our fellowship was interupted due to past events, events that I was 98% in the dark about until you sent out a blanket letter sometime in the 1980s. I prefer to drop my request rather than get into a “prove it” exchange. ---------end of clarified post Again, please let me know if my clarified presentation of your post is not accurate. My response will be in another post. Thankful Jane |
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09-03-2008, 01:05 PM
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#728 |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Dear Hope:
This is my response to your post #704. I rewrote your post to clarify it in the previous post. Now to my response: (Your writing in blue; mine in black): Above are a few quotes from your post. I have no desire to get into a “prove it debate.” Over the past months, you have basically taken a mode of “be on the alert to put down whatever Don says since he was once an elder.” But I was never an elder related to you nor did I ever have any interaction with you in that capacity. My Bad I re-read the posts around the time of the event with BlessD and the back and forth between you and me. As I did this, and in particular when I re-read your post #704, I realized some obvious things that were clearly my bad. Although, I didn’t name you in my post to BlessD, it was evident to anyone reading it that you were the one I was referring to about questioning her. I later told you that I had to make a choice between BlessD’s feelings and yours. I realized as I re-read this that my excuse wasn’t true. I didn’t have to make a choice. I could have sent BlessD a message in private and accomplished taking care of her feelings. I had to ask myself why I didn’t do this. With God’s help, it became clear to me that I was acting out of being offended with you. Instead of addressing the real problem, I just complained at you indirectly in another post. Doing so was wrong. So, will you please forgive me for my public response to her in which I indirectly complained against you? My Problem So what was my real problem with you? Be assured that it was not about you being an elder in the past. Rather, it was about what you had just done in the present to djohnson in an earlier post that was like elder behavior from the past. It was also about how you had failed to respond properly to two of us who had pointed out that what you did wasn’t right. I have a further repentance about this, but first I need to give a review of what happened with djohnson: In post #56, you went after djohnson as someone who was here to “curse us all.” In that post, you came down with a heavy hand on him accusing him repeatedly of bad motives. Here’s the link to the post I am referring to: http://www.localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showpost.php?p=2189&postcount=56 Another poster responded to you and kindly indicated that it wasn’t good to go after djohnson like that (post #58). You answered him that we needed to act with discernment and that you “saw something” about djohnson. I then wrote to you about what you had done, with specifics: http://www.localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showpost.php?p=2220&postcount=74 Your response to me was, ““What I said may sound strange but just file what I said for later reference. I always hope that my warnings will not come to pass.” (post #83) The appropriate response would have been to acknowledge that what you did was wrong and apologize. Your failure to do this left me with a bad feeling towards you and a judgment about your behavior. It sent the message to me that you did not see what you were doing was wrong, and furthermore, you didn’t care to see. I now can see that I remained offended with you, and as a result ended up doing something wrong towards you in my post to BlessD. I have now repented for that. My Further Bad Now, to the further repentance on my part. In reviewing all of this and asking God to show me His view of it, I got caught once again as I have many times before. I was not wrong to react to what you did because it was sinful, but the way I addressed you about it was wrong. I should have sent you a PM. Why didn’t I do this? I have to confess that I actually did think about communicating with you privately, but I rather quickly dismissed this idea because of other thoughts I held--such as you wouldn’t respond with more of the same, or might you might just ignore me and dismiss me because you “knew better” or some such. I have witnessed what happens when someone tries to address behavior in the present which is classic LC elder behavior learned in the past. I didn’t want to go through that. I considered that if this happened, then I would end up in a unwanted complicated communication process. So, I quickly made the decision that the best way was just to respond publicly and have others weigh in on the matter. So, in essence I decided to disobey the Word and did. Will you please forgive me for not addressing you privately about what you did to djohnson and giving you opportunity to respond? I'm also asking forgiveness of others who saw me do this. I can’t tell you how many times I have failed to obey the Lord like this because I have preconceived thoughts about the person I need to talk to and about how they will respond or whether it would work out well. I don’t know if I will ever learn that this is not an excuse for disobedience. The other person’s response is theirs to have. My part is to communicate honestly in love without considering whether or not it will be effective. That is God’s problem. My problem is obedience, or it will become the need for repentance if I disobey. L A Few More Things That I Need to Say Please be assured that I am not on the “alert to put down Don because he was an elder.” Whenever I have questioned you about things in the past in posts it has been because the things in question were important. My questioning was not because of past offense. As I said, you have never done one thing to me to hurt me and I am not carrying any kind of past offense. I do not blame you for what Benson or Ray or others have done. They are accountable for their behavior. I have no desire to put you down because you were an elder. I will, however, speak up if I see behavior in the present that is the same as unbiblical leadership behavior in the past. Please know that I care about you very much and want the best for you. I pray for you often when I think of you. In another post, you said that you thought my feelings about you might be moving towards a handshake instead of a shin kick, but that you didn’t think they had yet reached the level that you would get a hug if we met in person. I should have responded to that, but let it pass. Don, there was never a time you would have received a shin kick from me. You would have certainly received a handshake, and if you wanted a hug, you would have gotten one. I think I have complimented you a number of times in posts and I have said that I admired you for standing up as you did in the LC. I desire only the best for you and John. I am certainly the better off for knowing you when we were in the church in Houston together. I am sorry that our fellowship was interupted due to past events, events that I was 98% in the dark about until you sent out a blanket letter sometime in the 1980s. (That would be the early 90s.) I also desire the very best for you. I also am the better for having known you and Cheryl. I can cry thinking about how much I loved everyone and still do. Don, do you remember being in our home somewhere in the 90s? You came there with Doug Hendricks (or Hendrickson (?) ) and we all sat and fellowshipped a long time. Mostly Doug talked. I have also seen you at the T. Masseys in Dallas a few times. (Remember ... there were no shin kicks. J) There was no problem then, and I didn't have one in the present until the current situation. We are all talking about really hard things on this forum. I love Jesus and I love the truth. I know that you do as well. I want to walk in the light with all my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don’t leave anyone out of that. I would even hug Benson if he would allow it. I do love him still and pray for him. I do not like what he has done, but that is as it should be. God’s family is God’s family. We are all His children. It was because of this fact, that he is Our Father, that I sent you a PM two days ago. All of us in the LC fell in love with the idea of the “oneness” of all believers. We were tricked into believing that was definable in terms of church doctrine. I think the practical horizontal oneness God has in mind is much bigger and much more real than one which can be defined by a common church definition or practice. It’s one that comes from maintaining our relationship with God and one another in holiness. It’s one that always seeks to communicate unto reconciliation. When there is no problem between each of us and God and between us as brethren in the whole Body of Christ, that could be considered "practical" oneness. That is what shames and defeats the devil. That is what restores God’s presence among His children. I believe this happens at the grass-roots heart level, brother by brother. No one but God can orchestrate such oneness. I sent you a PM two days ago because I do not want there to be a problem between us. I think that may be why you posted what you did. I read one time that real reconciliation between parties means that they grapple with the root causes of the problem between them until it is removed and harmony is restored to its former state. It’s clear that Jesus grappled with the every problem between God and us on the cross and He removed them. Now we have His blood to cleanse us from every sin. We have the basis to communicate in the light (I Jn. 1:7) and get right with one another when there are problems. If we don't, we lose our fellowship not only with each other but with Him, and we lose His presence. We can’t stand before Him without having gone the distance he asks of us to keep oneness with one another. So, in line with what I have written here, I plan to write you offline and dialogue further as soon as I can. Your exposed and sorrowful, but repentant sister in Christ, Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-03-2008 at 02:43 PM. |
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09-03-2008, 03:28 PM
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#729 |
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Durham, North Carolina
Posts: 313
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Praise The Lord, He Is So Real
Hello Thankful Jane,
All is clear from my side. Let us go on together. By the way, the little remarks about shin kicking, shaking hands and hugs was my attempt at being cute in describing how we are being reconciled and nothing more. There is a measure of oneness among all believers but we must be deligent to preserve the oneness of the Spirit while we are arriving at the oneness of the faith. Since the old LSM/LC days, I have realized that I should not just assume I have an all clear with any from the past since I do not know the journey a particular brother or sister has been through. You post was a wonderful supply of life to my inner man. Thank you for your faithfulness to go to our Lord and seek for our reconciliation. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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09-03-2008, 08:49 PM
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#730 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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"We who live in the same locality cannot but belong to the same church. This is something from which there is no escape. If I am dissatisfied with the local church, the only thing I can do is to change my locality; then automatically I can change my church. We can leave a denomination, but we can never leave a church. To leave a sect is justifiable, but to leave a church-whether on account of unspirituality, wrong doctrine, or bad organization-is utterly unjustifiable." Is Watchman Nee's content in this book based on principle and not doctrine? Terry |
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09-03-2008, 09:10 PM
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#731 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Terry |
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09-03-2008, 09:49 PM
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#732 | |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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It's just Watchman Nee's reasoning. It's not biblical. |
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09-03-2008, 11:01 PM
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#733 | |
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I am so much happier now in a church with a name, though not denominated. A place where I find life and am constantly encouraged to stay humble in Christ. If you have the "IT" factor in your gathering, you can very easily lose "IT". Then if you lose "IT", but boasted how you have "IT", you may find yourself pretending you still have "IT". This is actually taken from a message from church last week. Note: "IT", also known as life, peace, spirit, truth, and many other names so, just sayin' - be careful of pride. Last edited by blessD; 09-03-2008 at 11:59 PM. |
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09-03-2008, 11:28 PM
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#734 | |
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I DON'T BELIEVE A WORD OF WHAT YOU SAID AND I WILL PROCEED TO FIND HOLES IN YOUR SUPPOSED STORY, but if it really did happen, I'm sorry. Thankful Jane and/or anyone else need not defend me. Unlike my youth in the LC, where I was a respector of persons, I am now very confident in who I am in Chirst. God was there in that room of many judgemental men, so I am not worried about your theories or doubt or speculation of numbers (or, the impression you may have given to others by your response). I know the big bold text is a little dramatic and gets more attention than perhaps I am looking for here. I even thought of changing it. However, it perfectly represents how your words really made me feel. Last edited by blessD; 09-04-2008 at 10:01 AM. |
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09-04-2008, 07:38 AM
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#735 | |||
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fpo Last edited by finallyprettyokay; 09-04-2008 at 07:59 AM. |
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09-04-2008, 12:12 PM
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Location: Greater Ohio
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__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-04-2008, 12:51 PM
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#737 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Quote:
I'm sure it wasn't the first time an elder was left out of the loop and it sure wasn't the last time. History has shown elders are not always included in fellowship. At times fellowship with the #1 elders has been circumvented. It's MO of the system. Like Ohio has said many times; "love the saints, but hate the system". Terry |
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09-04-2008, 01:00 PM
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#738 | |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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But the very existence of the disagreement between LSM and non-LSM churches shows that this presumption is baseless. LSMers think non-LSMers are a sect, and vice versa--a stalemate. So, ironically, the criteria for deciding which is which reverts back the one Christianity has always more or less used--doctrinal purity and spiritual condition. Christianity, however, has always left it up to individuals to decide this. But, if there is indeed supposed to be one church per city, then practicality manifestly dictates that someone must arbitrate for all on which group is the church. But who is qualified to make such a judgment for everyone else? Baseball has arbitration, the Body of Christ does not, unless you want to raise up another Vatican. So we are left with deciding by personal conviction, the very thing Nee says is an invalid criteria. More irony. So, in the end, the local ground teaching proves to be superfluous. It does nothing to resolve division, but rather guarantees it will occur. Why? Because if and when the doctrine ever catches on, we can pretty much bank on multiple groups claiming to be the genuine church in every city. And, because only one can get the prize, those groups will have animosity toward each other. So this would actually be a reversion back to the bad old days of inter-denominational rivalry. The "good news" is no one will have a name. The bad news is everyone will be divided worse than ever. Last edited by Cal; 09-04-2008 at 03:10 PM. |
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09-04-2008, 01:27 PM
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09-04-2008, 04:56 PM
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#740 |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Here we go again,
From heresy to unsound doctrine and the perennial question: "What church would Paul use if he wrote a check 2000 years ago! To address the latter, sorry but the Bible trumps the current financial system, so it cannot be said, you cannot do that because how could we write a check? It would actually be a wonderful thing for me, as I write a check addressed to the church in (city) .... and it gets cashed! Too bad, it would nice to get credit for the effort but to not have it drawn against my account. (For some reason I think I'm having a flashback and I'm using someone elses example from a previous forum; sorry if there are any similarites.) From heresy to unsound doctrine is not just hair splitting, as heresy is a pretty serious charge and that is what I reacted to; but I will meet you somewhere in between, not on the ground of unsound doctrine, but on the basis its just not right to declare a church in a city, unless all in that city are in agreement; its not unsound doctrine, its just not true. Thats as much as I want to say about this, as I do not want to appear to be a defender of the local church ground, I only want to clarify deceptive statments that do not hold water. Shawn |
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09-04-2008, 07:23 PM
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#741 |
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Location: USA
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Shawn,
I'm sorry, but I just don't follow your post. Can you be more clear as to what you are getting at? |
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09-05-2008, 04:50 AM
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#742 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Quote:
At first I didn't understand your post either, but after reading it several times I think I understand what your saying. You didn't want to appear to be a defender of the LSM style definition of the local ground, but you didn't agree that the teaching was "heresy" so you wanted to speak up about that without being misunderstood. Words are difficult things. In the sense that you and I typically think of the word heresy (which causes us to think of some horrible thing akin to saying Jesus didn't resurrect or worse...). I agree with you on this. That said, the meaning of the Greek word heresy is "a choice, a party, or a disunion." Wouldn't you say that definition fits with the ground of locality teaching (LSM style)? I am not advocating using the word "heresy," mainly because we don't think of it in the way the Greek defines it. I'm just explaining why I think the word was mentioned in the context of this discussion. Gal. 5:20 defines "heresies" as one of the works of the flesh. Most of the time this Greek word is translated "sects" in the N. T. One thing is pretty clear and that is that those that adhere to the ground of locality teaching as a fundamental for Christian oneness, are sectarian. Maybe we should use the word "sect" instead of heresy. Oh yes, good morning! Thankful Jane |
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09-05-2008, 12:47 PM
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#743 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,508
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Quote:
Let's say we apply the ground of locality as a principle. We assemble with an assembly in the town which we live. Outwardly where we fellowship may be percieved as a denomination because the assembly takes a name, but inwardly is the application of meeting locally in principle. If I were to go to another city to assemble according to my preferences, that's is where I see division in principle according to the "ground of locality". Terry |
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09-05-2008, 01:00 PM
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#744 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 22
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Ground of Locality
I guess I'm confused...would someone explain this topic to me?! Do some think its wrong to switch it up and go to a different church within the same city!?!? I guess I'm not following... Thanks for your help! ~Process
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09-05-2008, 04:15 PM
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#745 |
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Posts: 152
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Process,
There's no good way to explain it!!! If you read very closely you may be able to figure out how we got on the "ground of locality" issue, but it's not straightforward. The "ground of locality" got brought up as an "unsound doctrine" (although I first used the word heretical). I brought this up related to the issue of idolatry. It is tied back to Lee and his very strong choice to choose to make the "ground of locality" a strong doctrine that would be used for church organization and church authority. This happened all the way back in Taiwan in the 1950's. Personally, I believe that by God's arrangement T. Austin Sparks confronted Witness Lee about this in 1957 before Lee ever came to the United States. Lee stayed in the US starting in 1960 and from his earliest involvements he was pushing this "ground of locality" thing as central. This happened even after he had been prudently, carefully and strongly warned that it was a divisive doctrine. This "ground of locality" thing became a very big part of the uniqueness of the LC. Therefore, I've introduced the "ground of locality" teaching that many in the LC really lift up highly in their hearts as a concern in relationship to idolatry. With all of that said, the real answer: We are full of tangents...  Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-05-2008 at 04:21 PM. |
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09-05-2008, 04:38 PM
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#746 | |
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Posts: 152
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Quote:
I do have a problem with the fact that Lee made it into a strong doctrine and from the very beginning it was pushed here in the US. No one resisted this push. I think this had to do with two things: 1. A lack of awareness of how problematic it was 2. It was enticing to the innocen-minded. The idea of being part of a special group of brothers/sisters that were "IT" made it easy for people to buy into it initially. Later on, they had to bow down to it or suffer the consequences of the hierarchical structure that was subtly implemented alongside this seemingly good "ground of locality". Matt |
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09-05-2008, 09:00 PM
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#747 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Quote:
This post is not a response to your general point of whether the "ground" became something put on a pedestal, it is just an empiracle challenge to your quote above. This may be true statement (that being "IT" was an enticing factor to join the group), its just not obvious to me that it is. In fact, many - even most - folks I know were attracted by something other than the "we're IT" sentiment. Yes, this focus on being "unique" did grow for many, if not most, but I'm not sure it was the (or even an) enticing factor. The testimonies that come to mind when I ponder the testimonies I have heard about what attracted folks to the LC, have more to do with the lovely community, the felt power in the meetings and the mutuality among the believers. For others, there really wasn't even anything outward that attracted - not a practice, not a doctrine - in fact, just the opposite. One brother who came in in the seventies recounts that he was really really really annoyed by the whole group after his first meeting, but also knew that that is where God wanted them to be. I admit that I have a small cross-section of knowledge about why folks came into the LC - so I am not disagreeing with your point, just asking whether you base this assessment on multiple accounts, or just an intuition. In Love, Peter
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I Have Finished My Course |
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09-06-2008, 03:39 AM
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#748 |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 54
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Good Morning TJ,
Yes, your clarification surely helped my jumbled post become more clear, I actually addressed a few different posts but the focus of my thoughts were nailed by your comments...Thanks! I think we've moved beyond the heresy issue, I'm looking forward to where these posts will go, I would agree with Peter: The testimonies that come to mind when I ponder the testimonies I have heard about what attracted folks to the LC, have more to do with the lovely community, the felt power in the meetings and the mutuality among the believers. For others, there really wasn't even anything outward that attracted - not a practice, not a doctrine - in fact, just the opposite. One brother who came in in the seventies recounts that he was really really really annoyed by the whole group after his first meeting, but also knew that that is where God wanted them to be. My attraction was in pursuing the writings of Watchman Nee, for it was in these writings that I found a way for Christians to pursue the deeper things of God. Others? |
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09-06-2008, 06:05 AM
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#749 |
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 73
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My attractions to the LC were: firstly, so I would be accepted by my parents and make them happy; secondly, friends encouraged me to go (friends that I had made when other LC families came to dinner at our house); and, lastly, I was initially excited to see a group of people where everyone seemed to be saved and spoke about salvation often (giving testimonies, etc.).
Shortly after attending my first meetings, I quit going and told my friends that my parents had joined a cult. Mind you, I was 13-ish and don't know if I used the term before. Cults like the Children of God and the Unification Church ('moonies') were highly publicized at the time. Some things seemed similar enough for me to make the equation. I grew lonely since my family was gone most nights and weekends. I started going with them so I wouldn't feel so alone. Soon, I made friends, began reading my Bible a lot, learned how to play the guitar & sang a lot, and joined the music and many other service groups. I had a healthy walk with the Lord for a while. Even with the good things, I heard and saw stuff that seemed very off (this feeling was so strong on some points it bothered me for days, months, years). Now, I realize it was the Lord in me - it was the "prove all things" which I was led to believe should be left to elders or only WL. I saw some warning signs early on with WL's behavior and the idolization of him by some members so I never reached a comfortable place of fully trusting him or what he said. Oddly enough, it took 15 to 20+ years for me to find my way out. I still love many of the people there. Like Ohio says - love the people, hate the system. Last edited by blessD; 09-06-2008 at 08:07 AM. |
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09-06-2008, 12:33 PM
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#750 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Quote:
We tend to think of “idolatry” in terms of loving or being enticed. This is definitely a part of idolatry, but I think that God’s view of idolatry in the O.T. was much more than this. He was in covenant relationship with His people, as their husband. For them to serve other Gods was to break covenant with Him. He alone was to be their God, so He considered idolatry among his people to be spiritual fornication. The ground of locality teaching, as part of LC “idolatry,” is more than just an enticing teaching. The attractiveness of the teaching plays a part, but the actual thought introduced by the teaching is what resulted in idolatry, because it led God’s people to violate their new covenant relationship with God and one another. Let me explain what I mean by this. An Unbiblical Definition of Oneness The ground of locality teaching defines “practical” oneness among God’s people in terms of meeting, in a physical sense. This definition resulted from Lee focusing on the idea that the children of Israel all had to meet in one place, Jerusalem. He told us that this is how their oneness was maintained. He then extrapolated this idea to the N. T. and told us that the “one place” idea of meeting, which God had ordained in the N.T. to keep practical oneness, was the city boundary. This conclusion was a “leap” that he made which is not supported by scripture. (Scripture actually says plainly that the place in the New Testament would not be a physical one. John 4:20). This leap resulted in a false belief and false teaching. Those who embraced this teaching ended up producing division in the body of Christ because they adopted a scope of oneness that was too small, not to mention impractical. This is exactly what T. A. Sparks warned Lee about. Sparks told Lee in private, told Lee with a few others present, and then told the whole church that this teaching was too small in scope and would lead to sectarianism and division. Lee was infuriated by this. He refused to hear what was clearly (proven now by history) God’s warning to Lee. Not only that, after rejecting the warning, Lee came to the USA and passed this teaching on to us. Just as Sparks predicted, this teaching has resulted in brother being divided from brother in the body of Christ in a major way, both in Taiwan and in the USA and places worldwide. Those who embraced this teaching as the basis of oneness lost sight of the fact that they were under a heavenly mandate to keep the oneness of the Spirit with every member of the Body of Christ. Instead they became one with a man and his teaching about oneness--a man who did not practice keeping the oneness of the Spirit in the whole Body of Christ. He did not maintain right relationship with all his brothers in Christ. Those who follow him and his teachings do likewise. To be one with someone other than God and follow someone else's words over those of God is to commit spiritual fornication. Biblical Oneness The factor of oneness in the O.T. was not the place or the meeting, but God Himself, and the requirement to be in right relationship with Him and one another (ten commandments). The children of Israel were told to meet in the place where the Lord put His name. It wasn’t about the place, it was about where the Lord Himself was. The Lord was there. Likewise, the N. T. oneness is not defined in terms of meeting or place, but in terms of His name and where God is. Where His name is, He is there. When I am walking in spirit and truth holding, His name (cleansed by the blood of Christ, looking to Him alone for everything as my husband, following only His voice only, not letting the voices of other men or teachings or whatever come between me and Him), He is with me and I am with Him. When I gather with others who walking likewise with Him, we experience the blessing of our oneness with Him together. (That is, unless we have a problem with another brother, then we have to take steps to reconcile with them, in order to keep the oneness of the Spirit, and continue experiencing the blessing of the oneness He already gave to the entire Body of Christ: Him.) N. T. worship is not in a place (John 4:20) but in spirit and truth. We each have a relationship directly with Him in spirit and in truth, which we maintain in holiness by the blood of Christ. We are in new covenant relationship with him. We don’t go to a physical altar to confess our sins, etc. We confess to Him directly, in spirit and in truth. Wherever we are from morning to night we can do this. Neither is our oneness with Him as His members defined in terms of a physical place. We can pray and worship in every place. We can do this with others who are one with Him, wherever we are physically. I’m repeating this because it bears repeating!! Note in this astounding prophecy from Malachi the change that has taken place under the new covenant: Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. God's Relationship with Man Eph 5:31-32 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. The new covenant oneness between God and His people is a great mystery. Like a man and his wife, no one and no thing should come between God and each of His children. Throughout the O. T., God's people always went whoring after other gods. I used to think we were different in N.T. times, but not any more. Just like the children of Israel, we prefer to follow someone we can actually see and hear who gives us confidence that we are following God. We are easily enticed to follow other men and their leavened teachings and easily tricked into allowing them and their teachings to take the place of our relationship with God and His Word. The ground of locality teaching is part of the LC idolatry because this teaching, and the man who taught it, have come between God and His people and have interfered in their oneness (like the oneness of man and wife). Instead of God’s people hearing His voice only and practicing oneness according to His words, they are hearing another man’s words and practicing oneness according to his words, maintaining oneness with the man, his teaching, and only with others who do likewise. To God, this is the same as spiritual fornication which is the principle of idolatry. We are in new covenant relationship with God. That is a wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, thing. It will consummate in the marriage of the Lamb. Today as believers each of us are walking with Him in a holy relationship. If we let another voice take the place of God’s voice in our life, we sin, just as a woman does who takes another man other than her husband. If we do not maintain our oneness as brothers, receiving all whom He has received, we sin likewise. In this way, the ground of locality teaching and practice resulted in spiritual fornication (idolatry). The authority teachings and practices contributed to the same result. Both of these teachings are false and produce bad results which can be clearly seen as far back as Lee’s pre-U.S. Taiwan days. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-06-2008 at 01:38 PM. |
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09-06-2008, 02:01 PM
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#751 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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You are welcome. Like the Bible says, If any man speaks in an unknown tongue ... let another interpret. Glad to be of service. TJ |
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09-06-2008, 03:32 PM
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#752 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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I was not specifically addressing whether the ground of locality became an idol for some - if not all in the LC. I was addressing a much more specific claim made by Matt - that the idea that "we're IT" was a factor which intially attracted people. It may be the case that those who stayed in the LC eventually learned and uplifted the "ground". But that is not what I'm addressing. I am questioning, as a factual matter, whether the "uniqueness" aspect of the LC was, in fact, what initially made people want to begin meeting there. Regarding whether the "ground" did become an idol for individual members, I have some thoughts, which I will share soon. In that discussion, I think it is two separate matters: 1) did WL idolize the "ground" from the beginning and 2) did individual members idolize the "ground" and, if so, at what point and in what way. The evidence concern WL in Taiwan does not inherently implicate a new believer who came in and stayed in the LC in the 1970s. It may, but not because of WL's idolatry, if there was any - but a different, individual, criteria - which I will try to flesh out soon. In Him, Peter
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09-06-2008, 05:22 PM
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#753 |
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Posts: 152
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Peter,
I'm not stuck on the idea that the "we're IT" factor was the only factor that initially drew people to the LC. With the outpouring of the Spirit going on and the thoughts which were not countered that the LC was the God's special move on the earth, it was part of the equation. There were other things. I'm trying to draw out the ones that were not based solely on the truth and/or tended towards allowing a man (or men) to setup an idolatrous environment that started in a smaller way, but grew. The other primary fact is that Lee wasn't in some better condition from the earliest days. He was dirty and wasn't listening to sound admonition from someone like TAS who was speaking soundly. This opened the door to the Enemy to be integrated into the environment from the beginning. In regards to Lee, I believe the "ground" represented a means of establishing earthly control over other believers in the name of God, but not of God. Matt |
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09-06-2008, 08:09 PM
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#754 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Quote:
Matt: I didn't think you were presenting it as the sole factor which brought people in. Nor am I countering the evidence you're bringing forth concerning "early Lee." What I am interested in, in part, is what is was that attracted folks in the first place. There are varied answers to that question, but its answer is important. Rephrased, my question to LC members could be: "What was the foundation of your being in the LC." I do think this is an analogous inquiry to the one you are pursuing. Its an important question. Because this initial "foundation" is what sustained people and perhaps caused them to remain. Certain teachings or practices that came in or they adopted later may be cause of concern, but if they were not the source of their reason for being in the LC - and especially if they were subsidiary to their presence in the LC - then I think it changes the "idolatry" discussion. This question also is applicable to all of us - even after being in the LC and in other groups. It treats our accoutability as being larger than whether we were or were not in an errant group. As I said, there seem to me to be two conversations here: 1) Did Witness Lee adopt or create an idol out of "the ground" 2) Were you [mr or mrs LC person] idolatrous? First, in this discussion where the definition of "idol" is not as crisp as in the OT (i.e. where the idol is actually another god with a name, etc...), no given object or idea is inherently an idol. Its people's relationship to it which makes it an idol. Thus, an idol to one is not to another. Secondly, the existence of an idol is one thing. But being in and around something that some treat as an idol does not itself make one idolatrous. Thus, I am interested in establishing the Scriptural criteria by which we can say any given individual has been idolatrous when in and around something that others, especially leaders, have idolized. I would like to suggest a possible four categories of folks here, let me know what you think: Those who created idols Those who knowingly "ate food sacrificed to idols" because they thought it was the right thing to do (even if they didn't see it that way) Those who did not know the food had been sacrificed it to idols and simply ate of it as food. Those who recognized that the food had been sacrificed to an idol, but did not idolize, and thus whose conscience allowed them the freedom to eat What are your immediate impressions of this rubric? The premise of the rubric is that, concerning idols, there are different standards of accountability, based on personal knowledge and conscience. If this seems like a workable rubric, onto what do you think these four categories should map in the LC? What's the "idol" and what's "food sacrificed to idols" etc...? Thoughts? Peter
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I Have Finished My Course Last edited by Peter Debelak; 09-06-2008 at 08:19 PM. |
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09-07-2008, 05:26 AM
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#755 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Toronto
Posts: 32
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Let me take a stab at answering your inquiries. This is a precis of my perceptions. Time constraints do not allow for more. I realize now my blind trust caused me to overlook certain things that should have been alarm bells. But then we all know hind sight is 20-20. I began to meet with the LC in March 1973. This was just post the hippie era in which my generation was seeking love, peace and an alternate way among other things. In the LC I saw the answer to these things. There was at this time the definite uplifting of Christ and His Word. That is what attracted me. I saw the Word being used to explain the Word. There was also a paper put out called 'The Generation'. So there was the 'IT' factor as part of the package. We were the generation that was going to bring the Lord back. Specifically the LC people would because we were on the proper ground. Outside was only doom and gloom. Problems did occasionally surface but most were kept below the surface and therefore I was not aware of them. Those that did pop up were explained away (Daystar, consolidation). There was, at least for me, a naive trust in the words of WL. After all, he had such a grasp of the bible and talked so much about his close walk with the Lord. In the last few years I have come to realize an ideology can trump many things including allowing a work 'for the Lord' to come before a proper care of the Lord's people. I saw this in the last 2 years in Toronto in spades. The army comes before the flock. This is a paraphrase of what I was told directly by brothers from Anaheim. The 'out there nothing but doom and gloom' picture has, to my realization in Toronto, now been proven patently false. We are seeing the Word of God being opened up and people spontaneously being empowered by it and by the Lord working in their lives. Hallelujah! Steve |
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09-07-2008, 05:57 AM
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#756 | ||
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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I realize your are asking Matt your question, so I hope you don’t mind if I answer also. First, let me say what attracted me in the beginning: For me it was being with other people who felt like I did about Jesus and were willing to talk about Him. I grew up in a time (at least in my environment) when people said their relationship to God was private and personal and they didn’t talk about it. My mother read her Bible behind closed doors (at least that is what she said she was doing) and never talked to us about it or God. God was very real to me from age 11 onward, and I was starved (though I didn’t know this) to hear from anyone else who felt like I did about Him. So, when my new husband and I entered George W.’s house in Denton, Texas for our first meeting, I was attracted. (I was also extremely uncomfortable because praying out loud, etc. was awkward and embarrassing for me.) That said, I was not attracted by the ground of locality teachings or and idea of one man on the earth who was God’s deputy authority with lots of other little deputy authorities under him. These things ended up coming with the turf later. I readily embraced the ground of locality teaching because it was evident that something was wrong with organized religion. Having oneness sounded good. I had no idea what the Bible taught about oneness, so I was like a sponge (for another man’s teaching). As to all your various questions related to accountability, here’s my thought. I don't think the Bible defines many varying levels of accountability with regard to idolatry. It just says flee it. I don't think we each will be judged by categories of idolatry. When it comes to judgment, I think there will be as many “categories” related to judgment as there are people. God will judge each one of us in our own category, based on what He knows about us, our environment, upbringing, choices, etc. His judgment will be fair to the uttermost. It is good to discuss the idolatrous system just to understand where we went wrong and be protected from more of the same in the future, however, I don’t think we have to study it so we can determine categories of accountability. I believe our discussion is to help us become convicted that we need to flee idolatry in whatever form it is, to realize we are not immune, and to run to Him. (I can guarantee you when someone asks Him to expose his/her particular sins with regard to idolatry, that prayer will get answered.) As believers, I think a question we can each ask ourselves is, “What is my relationship with Him like now? Did I have a relationship with Him at one time that I left?” If I did, then I need to repent and return to Him only. “Did I never have a relationship with Him other than initial salvation and have always followed others thinking that was God?” If so, then I need to repent for looking to others in this way and start learning to look to Him. Time is short. This is a time for bowing our knees and hearing Him. 2Ch 7:13-16 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attentive unto the prayer that is made in this place. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there forever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually. Today, we have been offered a new covenant relationship with Him where we each know Him from the little to the great! That is huge, huge, huge! When we each repent for our own sins and get into right relationship with God and one another, He will come and heal our land. This isn’t a promise to a small subset of God’s people, but to the whole family of God. Heb 2:1 -13 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; .... Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Thankful Jane |
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09-07-2008, 06:12 AM
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#757 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Looking back, there was a tremendous subduing effect of the Holy Spirit upon me, and my stubborn and naughty ways, which effect was NOT from man. I have long felt that I was at the tail end of the blessed period in LC history. Things changed soon after I arrived in the mid 70's. People no longer "just showed up" and "gave their all" to "Christ and the church." These changes were several -- growing internal issues, external pressures from books, and cultural changes -- the "Jesus Movement" was ending. But, being honest here, definitely there were some leaders who took advantage of my submissive attitude towards the Lord. It became easy in that environment to "play God" with the lives of young people. Whether this was the effects of spreading "Chinese culture" or just just plain old "power grabbing" is hard to say. As AndPeter has alluded to, all this talk of "God's army" was straight from hell. Many saints were hurt by "army strategies." I believe this became a direct insult to the Headship of Christ. With the "commander in chief" in Anaheim, and his loyal lieutenants in place, with all non-soldier types effectively purged, who needs God anyways?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-07-2008, 07:03 AM
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#758 | |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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. We are all individuals. God deals with us as individuals. As individuals we sin, and as individuals we are accountable. I don't think a sinful man is in a position to think he can "figure out" his own accountability based on a reasoned approach. Would the purpose be to repent only to the extent of what we have reasoned or perceived we are guilty and no further? Would that be to make ourselves feel better that we were not perhaps as deceived as someone else? We are dependant on the One against whom we sinned to enlighten us about our sin, either through His word or the Holy Spirit or both. As in the Word, if someone sins against me, it is my responsibility to go to that person and enlighten them. Otherwise, they might not know about their sin against me. That's how people know about their sin. We are convicted of our sin, either by the Word or the Holy Spirit. It's not based on reasoning or a rubric, unless of course, your rubric is the Word of God. When we stand before Him one day, will He be looking at our rubric that we came up with for our guidelines of repentance to Him? "But Lord, I read it on the forum! I was only a category 5 idolator...don't you see?" I like the "mercy seat" approach. I'm glad there is one, and that's where I want to be. I just want to depend on His mercy alone, because I need it real bad. Anything I come up with has been called "filthy rags." Nell |
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09-07-2008, 09:07 PM
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#759 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Insodoing, He is merciful.In my post, which you quoted, I was making two points - first, that we are each accountable as individuals. I agree with what you have said on this point. But secondly, there is a lot on this forum - and in particular this thread - that is seeking to instruct and admonish/shed light/ etc... on certain teachings and practices in the LC for a presumed audience of LC and ex-LC members - and there is an implicit goal to assign accountability. I see what Matt as doing is to point out something that was made into an idol. This is an important inquiry. The next question then - about the system and for the reader - is what it means for each of us that there was (or could have been) a systematic idolization of something in the LC? For the reader who is just beginning to realize there were idols or tendencies to replace Christ as the focus, there should be for that reader, and for ourselves, a robust discussion of everything the Scripture has to say about the matter. What I am bringing forth is a consideration of 1 Corinthians 8-13 and the extent to which it would apply here. Clearly, for the folks in Corinth, idols were prevelent in the culture. So, how should the COrinthians have addressed "flee from idolatry"? Did it mean to leave the church in Corinth or even the city generally? Perhaps, but probably not. In fact, Paul's instruction was about how to be before God and our brethren even when idols are present. It goes without question that Paul would admonish us to recognize idols as idols and not to sacrifice to them ourselves - but rather to make Christ pre-eminent in all we do. But what if you care not for the idols, but are among folks who do sacrifice to that idol? What if these folks want to serve you up food sacrifed to that idol? There was a time when I felt superior to other Chrisitians and felt the LC was "IT". I almost didn't know how to be Christian, except to be unique. I have repented for this and am learning by His grace and mercy. But there was also a time I lived and pressed on in Christ with saints, some of whom held Witness Lee and the ground of locality with an esteem that was too much. When I heard testimonies which quoted Witness Lee, as if that was the foundation of its truth, rather than the Scripture - I think you could say, as an analogy, that that I was being offered food sacrificed to an idol. Did that prohibit me from "eating" or appreciating the substance of what was being shared? That's not a rhetorical question. What applies here: "flee from idolatry" (i.e. stand up and walk out of the meeting or something and tell everyone that they should do the same) or appreciate it for its substance, to the extent it brought me to Christ and His word and continue to labor with my brothers and sister to seek only Christ and His word. I am not being precise in what I am questioning here. Perhaps I could rephrase this whole thought/post by asking, does 1 Cor. 8-13 applie here and if so, in what way? Grace to you, Peter P.S. Thankful, this post is immediately responding to Nell's post, but the thought is also a response to your post. I don't think there are necessarily "categories of idolatry." However, I do wonder what "fleeing" idolatry is supposed to look like to the outside observer. I wonder if there are many in the LC who "fled" idolatry but yet their very remaining in the LC makes you think that they haven't. Thoughts on that?
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09-08-2008, 04:50 AM
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#760 | |
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Posts: 152
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I believe the need to "flee idolatry" is a call to the hearts and minds of the Corinthian believers, but not with each man operating in island mode. Rather, we are brothers and sisters in the Lord and can help one another just as we have done on some of these forums. I think I understand some of where you are coming from. I would like to respond with two things which are not necessarily direct responses to all of your inquiry. I've been studying 1 Corinthians 10 pretty closely and even in connection to the whole issue of Balaam and Balak as we looked at it in Revelation 2:14. Let me start with the verse from John that many are familiar with: Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. I believe it has been previously pointed out that the word "word" in the greek here is actually rhema, not logos. I believe this is relevant. Jesus Christ is saying that the words He speaks to you are spirit and they are life. In my life I have to agree with this. Sometimes the "words" that others speak to me, even if they are from the Bible itself are not spirit and not life to me. Why? Because the Lord did not give them to me. I'm not discounting knowledge of the Word or study of the Word. It is the study and knowledge of the Word keeping the Lord as my Lord that has allowed His Word to be spoken to me at various times. I have been caught in the trap at times of study and knowledge of the Word in such a way that I believe I have gained some measure of control over it. The Bible can be lifted over God himself in some cases (I believe we know one of them from our previous foruming) in how a man relates to the concepts in the Word. Now moving to 1 Corinthians 10 for a minute. Paul parallels the OT children of Israel who have just exited Egypt with us. He makes a very strong and surprising parallel. He tells us that the children of Israel were eating and drinking the very same spiritual meat and spiritual drink. 1Co 10:1-4 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. The spiritual meat and drink of the OT children of Israel was manna from heaven and water from the rock. It was Christ. Personally, I believe there is a strong linkage to John 6:63 here in 1 Corinthians 10 and when you explore the rest of it. 1 Corinthians 10 shows us that we cannot have the table of the Lord and the table of demons. They don't go together. What is the Lord's table? Is it not the Lord coming to dine with us and us with him. I know that the LC emphasizes the whole "eating" thing. I'm not going off on that tangent, but I believe it is important to realize the significance of what is happening at the Lord's table. It is communion at table with the Lord. There are pictures of this in the OT that help to clarify this further. So, what happens when a man comes to the table of the Lord and offers up "Brother Lee says..." in reverence to Lee? Or what happens when someone offers up "in the Lord's Recovery we have..." in reverence to a unique (and conceptually divided) portion of the Body of Christ? What is happening here? Are we remembering the Lord for what He did on the Cross that would bring us all into one body with all believers? Or are we partaking of something else when we begin to "partake" of what this man has offered to his/her idol? I believe that when this happens we begin to mix the wrong kinds of things together with the table of the Lord. God cannot stand it. He departs. We cannot have both. From what I have heard this did not happen instantly, but the Enemy introduced an "angel of light" who had much "knowledge of the Word", but was dirty. He (the Enemy) subtly replaced the table of the Lord with the table of demons. I know this will not come across well. Sorry. I'm continuing to be blunt, because it is time to move beyond ignorance on some of these issues. Again, back to Corinthians 10. The idol is nothing, but if we know something is offered to an idol we are not supposed to accept it. It is not holy. It's not in communion with the Lord, but with something else. Back to the point here, we are given manna from heaven. We have the Lord in our lives and we have His Word. We are able to partake without adding to or taking away from the meal He provides (Give us this day our daily bread). We can become aware of when others are making their offering to someone other than the Lord. It may not have been possible in the past because of the level of ignorance among God's children, but God has been faithful to provide and begin to help us see. We are given much admonition and instruction in the OT, which many set aside and put under the title of "that's Old Covenant, i'm under the New Testament" without realizing how much God gave us in the Old Covenant for our protection. It is rich with so much that the Lord can use to help shine light in our hearts. It can lead us to Christ (as Paul says) and it can help us guard against idols. There is no way to avoid our sins of ignorance when they are done in true ignorance. We must be faithful to repent when the light comes and count on the mercies of God. He is faithful. Having been given a measure of light, we seek to be diligent knowing that even in our efforts (and with knowledge) we will still fail. We must be faithful to repent and again, receive the mercy of God. He is faithful. Remember Paul calls on the OT in 1 Cor 10 to instruct the Corinthians and tells not to be ignorant (Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant). We can become informed, but this alone will not protect us. We have to receive our spiritual food from one source. The Lord. We must learn how to walk in obedience to Him with the full knowledge of how much he loves us and is a true shepherd over us even if we are wayward sheep because we can be so dumb at times. I know I need a good shepherd. I've been a real idiot on many more than one occasion. Important Note: I have no thought or ideal that people should only read the Bible. The Lord has spoken ("rhema") to me in various ways. Almost all of it through or based on scripture, but the main thing is that it is from the Lord. I have come to realize that in my life I have received things from other sources (not God) which have lead me astray and as I realize it, I simply repent of it and return back to the Lord. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-08-2008 at 10:46 AM. |
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09-08-2008, 05:35 AM
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#761 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Once light dawns for someone on "idolatry," he/she has to address his/her own part in it before the Lord with repentance. If he/she has hurt others as a result, obviously those persons should also be addressed. Repentance means a change in behavior. God says concerning Mystery Babylon the Great, whose evil characteristics the LC system has, "come out of her my people." The evil characteristics are mainly 1: An authoritarian leadership with one at the top being "God's representative on the earth today declaring the "true" meaning of God's Words and will to the faithful and 2) A definition of oneness that is not God's definition. (These have been elaborated up on in earlier posts.) So, what does "Come out of her my people mean" practically? So, as far as the LC goes we need to "flee" an authoritarian leadership system with one person being the main voice whose burden everyone ends up following (even in an LC where there is a "plurality" of elders... that would be a "leading" elder who always has the final say type person). Each believer needs absolute freedom to not follow someone else's burden and yet still be fully received. We also need to "flee" any type of definition of oneness which is not God's definition and which results in improperly relating to other brothers in Christ. It is a complete and thorough and absolute coming out in heart and mind, first and foremost. Does this mean we cannot meet with people who believe and practice 1 and 2 above? To this I would say that it's really about what God tells us to do. So, if He, for His reasons, tells me to stay and continue to meet and I am clear about that before Him, then I stay; however, there should be no compromise on 1 and 2 just mentioned or I become a part of "her." That means if I see insistence on either of these things, I must speak up. If I see abuse taking place because of either/both of these things, I must speak up, etc. As for what others think about what we do, in this case (re: who we meet with), what others think about what we do means nothing. It is my intention in what I share on this forum to help others view things in the light of the Bible and to encourage them to come back to its Words for themselves. If the Bible exposes certain deeds and practices as evil, then we have to take that seriously and stop participating in such things. Where or who I meet with is no one's business but mine. I must, however, practice the truth of Jesus being my Lord (no one else) and I must receive all believers. I also must confront sin when I see it, these two in particular because they are fundamental pillars of the LC. That's a pretty short answer but captures the kernel of my thought. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-08-2008 at 07:22 AM. |
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09-08-2008, 08:12 AM
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"Once light dawns for someone on "idolatry," he/she has to address his/her own part in it before the Lord with repentance." When the light dawned on me, the Lord led me out. It wasn't very much light and I know I was not equipped to help anyone. I could barely help myself out the door. I had just enough light to take that step. It was several years again before the Lord opened my eyes further and I began to understand what had happened to me, and even years later before the Lord began to put me into situations of helping others. For me, I had to be totally out of the garlic room. Further, the garlic had to be out of me. Interestingly, when I was still a Baptist, coming into the Local Church, the same questions were asked: can I not remain a Baptist and appreciate Witness Lee's ministry, to use your words, to the extent it brought me to Christ and His word and continue to labor with my Baptist brothers and sisters to seek only Christ and His word. The elders/speakers, etc., shared strongly that we couldn't remain in the Baptist church and bring to it the reality of the "church life" we were seeing through Witness Lee. It wouldn't fit. The "church life" was the new wineskin and what we were experiencing was the new wine. To put the new wine into the old wineskin would cause the old wineskin to burst, and the new wine would be lost. I think that is as true now as it was then, except that now, the Local Churches have become the old wineskin. The Local Churches cannot take anything but the ministry of Witness Lee, or it will burst. Having said that, the Lord places us in His Body as it pleases Him. If He leads you to stay, then you obey. Quote:
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Nell Last edited by Nell; 09-08-2008 at 08:36 AM. |
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09-08-2008, 11:43 AM
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#763 |
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I've got a question for y'all. How's come Aaron never got punished for making the golden calf?
I think this may be germane to the present discussion in several ways. SC |
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09-08-2008, 12:11 PM
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Terry |
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09-08-2008, 12:55 PM
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(Moses speaking) 18 Then once again I fell prostrate before the LORD for forty days and forty nights; I ate no bread and drank no water, because of all the sin you had committed, doing what was evil in the LORD's sight and so provoking him to anger. 19 I feared the anger and wrath of the LORD, for he was angry enough with you to destroy you. But again the LORD listened to me. 20 And the LORD was angry enough with Aaron to destroy him, but at that time I prayed for Aaron too. I imagine it came down the hearts of the people. It's possible Aaron's heart was never really in worshipping that calf, he just make it to placate the people, whereas some of those people really were worshipping it. I doubt it had anything to do with Aaron being spared because he was a leader, if that's what you are getting at. |
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09-09-2008, 02:58 AM
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Circling Back...
Here is what I have thought since the beginning of this thread.
A. The LC system was too big for any one person to believe that they would not be succumbed by it. The only way not to be overcome by it is to leave it. B. All who remained bear some measure of responsibility. The only real distinction between leadership and laity is that leadership may bear more responsibility. The laity still bears responsibility, because we are all members of one body. We are all just brothers/sisters in Christ and we must love one another even when that means taking tough actions that may cost us reputation, standing, etcetera among our brothers and sisters. I do not speak out of turn on this point (B). I face this now where I meet right now. I'm faced with one or more elders who are 'lording it over' the flock and blindly acting in a manner that may finalize the destruction of a marriage. I see it and I am there. Therefore, I will bear some measure of responsibility if my lips remain sealed (Lev 19:17-18). C. There are some who feel that they have somehow escaped the strong influence of the LC system. This is not true. Once you willingly enter into an idolatrous type of system (whether you know it is idolatrous or not) you will be affected to some extent. No exceptions. The only preservation is to remain focused on the Lord. The truth is that there is almost no setting that doesn't have some idolatry. As such, the presence of it does not preclude someone from going where the Lord leads. However, when it is done at a systematic level and becomes pervasive to an entire grouping of christians then the call is probably to "come out of her my people", for this grouping has gone the way of Babylon. E. God is not judging us unto condemnation, but unto mercy. He is full of lovingkindness and full of mercy for us. None of what I have said comes from a spirit of meanness towards anyone. Part of what I have said has come from a resistance against one who feels that somehow they were a leader in the LC system and yet was not affected the same way everyone else was. I believe this is not true and the willingness to reconfront the facts with the appropriate person(s) would prove this out. In attempting to carve out a particular locality as being somewhat better, I felt it was necessary to resist this strongly. I know differently. I know the system that was established by the Enemy of God compromised everyone. I know the locality in question was not better. There may have been some attempts to be better, but they did not take and those left to endure the environment experienced the same oppressiveness and 'lording it over' the flock as other localities. Even this person has admitted to this on a point by point basis. (Note: We can review the record if needed) The Midwest has had an object lesson in the past several years in just how forceful the Enemy will be through "men of God" in attempting to maintain control over the souls of the saints through an environment like the LC. This cannot be minimized. I do not speak out of turn on this point (E) either. I face this kind of environment where I work right now. Work is not church, but the principles of hierarchy under bad leadership which only cares for itself are the same. Nothing I can do will change my work environment. I'm very good at producing change in a work environment and I've already tried everything I know (plus some). This includes risking my job by standing up against the 'powers that be' and confronting the situation. They cannot fire me, because the customer may fire them. I cannot leave until the Lord grants me release, but in the meantime I have to be faithful to resist the evil that is here even at the risk of my income and livelihood. It's not fun at all. This is what I have been doing while I have been moderating the other forum. I've been trying to survive the worst job I have ever had. God is faithful and is using this for my highest good. F. Was there anything good in the LC? Yes. Christ among the believers. Nothing of Him is lost. Nothing. The outworking of the Holy Spirit in the lives of many of the Lord's little ones happened, but they were as sheep set for the slaughter and in many cases the slaughter came at the hands of other brothers who thought they acted on behalf of the Lord. The Enemy established a mixture from the very beginning. This influence cannot be ignored. There are no "glory days" in which the Enemy was not working and had already planted the elements (certain wolves among the sheep) that have gone undetected for many, many years. G. In the words and spirit of Joseph, "God meant it for good". Remembering the words of Amos, let us not forget the "affliction of Joseph". Many whose pasts are tied to the LC and have suffered at the hands of the LC have come to know the affliction of Joseph. (Note: Some may not get my reference to these verses... Sorry.) Quote:
I'm going to add Ezekiel 34 to the record in my next post. I believe it fits. Final Note: Although I have referenced one particular individual in my post, I must be clear. I am very grateful for this person. His willingness to dialogue as an ex-leader demonstrates his humility. This cannot be properly appreciated. I acknowledge my open resistance to some of what he has shared. I do not resist him because I dislike or disrespect him. I do it for the very opposite reason. I like him and I respect him. In addition, there are some other ex-leaders (and even some current Midwest leaders) who have been willing to dialogue. I am personally grateful because the dialogue is much needed for the healing that the Lord wants for each of us. He is restoring our soul(s). He is the true Shepherd that can do it properly. If you consider that I have gone too far in what I have said about idolatry, then I am sorry. I'm not beating anyone over the head with it, but in the face of any attempts to recover the unrecoverable I feel responsible to establish on the table in front of everyone some important and grave facts about the history of the LC and Witness Lee. The deeds speak loudly of problems from even before Lee and the "system of the LC" entered the United States. Many were caught unaware. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-09-2008 at 03:19 AM. |
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09-09-2008, 03:03 AM
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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Yes. Anything can happen. Does what you describe that fall within the definition of "absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee"? This is first and foremost in the Local Churches. Even the term "reality of the church life" is Witness Lee's terminology. It means something specific. Who else talks that way? It's all part of the program and really describes something that "only happens" under Witness Lee's ministry. I don't see how a person can flee idolatry and remain in such a restrictive program. I'm not saying it can't happen though, I just see it as being mutually exclusive. Nell |
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09-09-2008, 03:07 AM
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#768 | |
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Posts: 152
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Ezekiel 34
Note: This does not apply to any particular person. It does apply to the system of leadership that sprang up among the LC. After reading my last post it is possible that some might misconstrue my intent for these verses, so let me clearly state that it does not apply to Hope in my mind. Based on looking straight into his eyes, I believe the intent of his heart in being on this forum is for the sake of others.
Ezekiel 34 (NASB95) Quote:
Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-09-2008 at 04:57 AM. |
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09-09-2008, 05:04 AM
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Location: Texas
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09-09-2008, 07:01 AM
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09-09-2008, 10:03 AM
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Location: Texas
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Nell |
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09-09-2008, 02:09 PM
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Hi Matt, a little statement and rebuttal, if you don't mind. Do you concede that there are true believers in the Roman Catholic church? Can some not love the Lord and his word yet sit in the midst of all the idols surrounding them? I think they can. I wish that you could show some of the mercy and compassion that you have referenced in point E. Some of the churches have grown through and out of the LSM way of doing things, if your point were true, every single member of the LC would still have a rabid loyalty to WL. Then and only then could you point the finger of all being usurped by idolatry. Today I meet and fellowship in a church that had its roots in the LC/LSM and has since been growing out of it. I find your black and white portrayal to be baseless and troubling. Your fixation on idolatry seemed to be locked in the 70's and 80's condition of the church at that time. You make accusations based on events that go back 20 or 30 years; a time when all LC's were either towing the line as one group. I hope in the next posts you might consider the conditions then and now and recognize the difference. Thanks, Shawn |
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09-09-2008, 02:22 PM
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Questions for Matt
Matt,
I have a few minutes before closing the office for the day. I have a couple of questions for you. Why is it so critical in our discussion of the lc, WL and WN etc. to make everyone and every place the same? Here are a few quotes from one of your posts. Quote:
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Can you share about your experiences of challenging someone’s ministry? What was the outcome? In Christ Jesus, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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09-09-2008, 04:03 PM
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And yes. They are in an environment that is in bondage and under the strong control of a hierarchy that is not of the Lord. I believe the RCC is less controlling than the LC has been in the past 20 years, but it is heavily leavened. This is clear to all. Would you encourage any believer in the Lord that you know to join the RCC? Why not? Quote:
As for compassion, I believe that I have demonstrated this over a very long period of time by the suffering I went through to moderate on the other forum allowing all to have their voice and point their guns at me as they felt it appropriate or necessary. If you choose to measure me because of the content of this one thread, then I would have to agree with your assessment. I assure you that each one of us has been guilty of idolatry. No exceptions. Our hearts are dark. However, the points I have been making on this thread are about the systematic idolatry introduced and propogated by Lee. Be assured that some of it still exists, including in your locality. I know of at least one example there that is quite clear within your leadership. It was by the mercy of God that the Midwest broke free from the LSM. Do you believe that the Midwest would have gotten free if the LSM did not quarantine Titus Chu? This was the everlasting lovingkindness of God. If this had not happened, your locality would still be further under the sway of the LSM/LC. That's not about 20 or 30 years into the past. It's very close to the present. Do you realize how devilishly the LSM/LC has behaved to try to maintain their control over the localities in the Midwest? It is something to consider closely. Just because a number of localities ended up siding with Titus and this caused them to "schism" off of the LSM/LC does not make these localities suddenly healthy. It puts them on a better path. If they return to old habits then you end up right back where you were, just different names at the top of the list. My emphasis has always been on encouraging and exhorting everyone to return to the Head. That's it. Quote:
I already recognize the difference in the Midwest. I've travelled through Pittsburgh and have been to a meeting there. I've travelled to other areas of the Midwest and have seen that there is a new found freedom in various localities. There is also still a lot of confusion and the leadership is not clear. I can be specific on this issue. I agree that the break from the LSM was a huge step in the right direction. When an addict is in recovery, they have to confront facts and be thorough. The same is true for us in regards to deception. In closing, I know the points I have made on this thread have been strong. They have been strong enough to cause a reaction from many directions. I do understand where you are coming from and I don't have a hard heart or mean spirit towards you. Matt |
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09-09-2008, 10:04 PM
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Matt:
I have many thoughts and I have not fully digested your many posts, which obviously have much thought behind them. I will post more thoroughly my responses and thoughts, but here I want to present what I see as a conundrum for me that your take on idolatry presents. 1 Corinthians 5: 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. I agree with you, that by a definition that can be healthy for allowing the Lord's light to shine on us personally, each and every one of us should be convicted as idolatrous. It is not explicit in the Word, but in humility and under His light, each of us should be convicted. The Lord knows I have. The question presented on this thread, however, is not just how we interact ourselves before the Lord - but rather what the Word tells us about interacting with others. Your speaking here, it seems to me, is geared toward three points: 1) to cause each of us to be transparent and honest before the Lord (this is good and healthy); 2) to convict others that they are idolatrous; 3) to establish a proper response once idolatry is recognized. If we all adopted your take, that each and every person in the LC is idolatrous by the definition that Paul spoke so very strongly about, then - at least for me - there are many meals and invitations to dinner by LC members I must decline. According to the Word of God and your definition of idolatry (as rooted in the Pauline definition), don't you agree I should decline these invitations to dinner? I have to tell you, even if I can't articulate why, it would violate my conscience to decline such invitations. And I don't believe I would be violating Paul's word in 1 Corinthians 5:11 by accepting them. I am approaching this subject matter from several directions, I know. It may appear that I am scattered on this. I am not - well, not for myself, as I have had to have many nights of repentence before the Lord for replacing Him as the pre-eminant one. But my lack of clear articulation is not an indication of grasping for straws. There is something that just does not sit well with me in your presentation. I read and re-read your explications and I nod often. Yet something does not sit well. Tonight, I read this portion from 1 Corinthians, and the tension within me about this topic hit me again: what of my dear brothers in sisters in Christ, who love Christ, who live for Christ and for their neighbors - and also read a lot of Witness Lee (perhaps even uplift him too much): they may be unhealthy, but as idolators, do I have to decline the invitations to dinner??? I am not being sarcastic with that question... In Love, Peter P.S. Really, Matt, I appreciate not only your thoughts, but your carefulness and thoroughness in what is obviously something you are burdened about. I recall taking BrentB to task very harshly for his characterizations which I felt were not grounded in the same thoroughness, precision and care that your study and presentation has had. Despite my immediate uncomfortable reactions to some of what you have said, I have taken it seriously and taken it seriously before the Lord and as opportunity to dive back into His word. So take my challenge in that light, for what its worth, brother. P.P.S. (post-post addition) It has occurred to me that you may make a distinction between someone who has been "idolatrous" and someone who is an "idolator." Thing is, since I agree with you that idolatry, by your definition, is a matter of heart, I really can't see the distinction between the two. Perhaps further explanation of the distinction, if you believe there is one, would help.
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I Have Finished My Course Last edited by Peter Debelak; 09-09-2008 at 10:16 PM. |
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09-10-2008, 04:10 AM
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#776 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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The Lord did address many serious heart matters repeatedly, such as hypocrisy, loving traditions of men, lording it over others, stubbornness, unbelief, etc. but He never once mentioned idolatry in Israel, when He walked the earth. Why is that? Did He forget? In fact, the N.T. is dead silent on idolatry until Stephen brought up Israel's history in Ac 7.41-43. The Lord also nearly put no responsibility on the sheep. He placed it all squarely and pointedly and repeatedly on their leaders, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, fools, serpents, blind hypocrites!" When the N.T. finally confronted idols for the first time, it was circa A.D. 50, at the Acts 15 council, which was supposed to be all about circumcision and the way of salvation. Since James et. al. were overwhelmed by the testimonies of Simeon and the plain truths of scripture, James decided to divert their attention to "abstain from things sacrificed to idols." Talking about changing the subject! It was Jewish pride and religious prejudices in Jerusalem which first introduced the topic of idolatry to the church. Interestingly, when Paul did finally travel to Europe, and confronted the rampant Greek idolatry in Athens and Corinth, he played down the matter of "abstaining," and instead instituted the first "don't ask, don't tell" policy (I Cor 10.25).
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-10-2008, 04:43 AM
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"Blessed are the merciful, they shall obtain mercy. "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice. "He who shows mercy in cheerfulness ... Quote:
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-10-2008, 05:26 AM
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First of all, I always appreciate what you have to say regardless of whether we are in agreement in our thinking. You are very thoughtful and provoke others to consider things carefully. I only saw one question in your post, so I am addressing it. If I missed something please point it out to me. I was not talking about a physical dinner. I was talking about spiritual food. When a diehard LCer says to you, "Brother Lee taught me this and brother Lee taught me that" in reverence to Lee and then begins to share with you the things that they are appreciating from Lee's ministry isn't your conscience offended? This isn't about eating physical food. It's about partaking of things offered to idols. The parallel that Paul sets in 1 Cor 10 shows that the children of Israel who ate the manna and drank water from the rock were partaking of Christ (spiritual food). We partake of Him through His Word to us. If we partake of His Word from another man after He has offered it to his idol then there is a problem. This is the core of what Paul was addressing. Due to the fact that in Paul's time there were still physical idols it was easier for him to paint this picture. Paul made it clear that the object (the idol) was nothing. It was the fact that it had been offered to an idol. It was the act of idolatry on the part of another that made it a problem for those of the House of God to partake. I've been invited to dinner by the main LC elder in my current locality. By God's amazing arrangement me, my wife and my mom went to their house for dinner. I was free to do this before the Lord. No idolatry. However, there was one portion of our fellowship in which this elder went on a Lee-tangent. He began praising Lee for how he had brought truths into the Body of Christ. He almost quoted portions of the historical progression that you find in the little book called "History of the Local Churches". This was offensive to me. We all sat silently until he finished and then we moved on. I did not receive what he was saying and I was offended inside by it. The rest of our time was good and we had fellowship about other things that were completely unrelated to LC. Looking back I have thought about whether or not I should have spoken up and let him know that I could not receive what he was speaking about Lee. I am not 100% clear. However, I am clear he was offering something up to his idol and in my heart I knew it was wrong. Does this explanation clarify what I am talking about? Matt P.S. You mentioned LCers as idolaters in your post. Personally, I have tried to be careful not to use that label. I am pointing at the sin of idolatry. I believe we are justified in Christ and must view each other in this light. However, this does not extend to ignoring sinful deeds. We are asked to confront sinful deeds in sincerity and truth with a right heart towards one another and the Lord. I know my addressment of this subject has brought me into question on this point (my heart towards others). I can't really defend myself on that issue. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 06:14 AM. |
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09-10-2008, 05:59 AM
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#779 |
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Posts: 152
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Ohio & Hope,
I am going to take a week to respond. This is due to two things. 1) Work 2) I need to spend time composing my responses to both of you. I need to be substantive in my response and not quick. In between now and then, I will go mostly silent. Hope, I have previously asked you some questions which you have failed to respond to. I know you are busy and will remain busy into next month. I will bring the key questions of concern back forward and request a reply when I reply to all of your questions. Ohio, You have brought up some very good points which I both appreciate and am glad to see that you have decided to return to challenging this issue based on the Word. For a while there you were on the attack against my person. I know we have a strong disagreement here and I know you believe that I am just wrong. This hasn't changed the fact that I respect you as a brother in the Lord. I do. I have not appreciated some of your attack directed beyond what I am saying and at me personally. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do believe that some of your primary objections here are rooted in your belief that the "leadership" messed up, but the flock is innocent. Is this correct? I also realize that you simply do not agree with some of what I am sharing about idolatry in general. I'm not discounting this fact, but I want to see if you are able to acknowledge one of the key aspects of your position. Note about my question: I have tried to make the basis of my thought well known (as much as possible), so I am not asking for something that I haven't already tried to share from my point of view. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 06:20 AM. |
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09-10-2008, 07:09 AM
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#780 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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I never intended to bring "attack against your person." Apologizes to all those, especially you, who got that impression. Throughout this thread and the forum in general, I have only attempted to bring balance to what I feel are extreme views, whether they come from the promoters or the demoters of the LC's. I do not believe, for the most part, that you are "just plain wrong," only that some of your more serious judgments should be reserved for certain leaders and their misbehavior, rather than some application for every member. I do agree with many of your comments on idolatry, when spoken in the same context they were written. When they are applied indiscriminately upon on N.T. believers, then I have to speak up. Our assessment of idolatry should only go as far as the N.T. authors went. Why even mention idolatry, if all equally bear responsibility? That's like proving all LC'ers are still sinners. Isn't that called "straw man." Concerning whether the "flock is innocent," the situation is far too complex to say whether all are guilty or only leaders are guilty, (and of what they are guilty of.) That's why I protest generalizations, they spawn prejudices and critical attitudes. They are easy to learn and hard to be cleansed of. I am rejecting both the ones I received inside the LC, and the ones from outside against the LC. I have never been persuaded that stereotypes are positive, whether they be about men in general (or women ), or races, or cultures, or religions.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-10-2008, 07:59 AM
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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I think I wasn't clear. I mentioned "eating" only because Paul mentioned "not to even eat" with idolators - meaning, I think, not to even spend time with them. I wasn't addressing your points about eating, I was addressing the fact that Paul specifically told the Corinthians that if there were idolators among them, they should not even eat (i.e. spend time with) such ones - they should, in fact, cast them out. That is, Paul defined idolatry in such a way that necessitated severe action. Does your definition of idolatry require the same severe action? The logic of your definition together with Paul's admonition would require me to refuse to sit down with anyone from the LC. Secondly, I will challenge you on the "idolatrous"/"idolator" distinction. I am all for being careful not to confuse the person and the sin. But Paul's word in 1 Corinthians 5:11-12 was to Christians, each of which had been justified in Christ. In fact, he said that you don't need to necessarily stay away from unbelievers who are idolatrous (v. 10) - but you must refuse/cast out believers who are idolatrous. How does one get from being "idolatrous" to being an "idolator"? I'd say, if they perpetuated idolatrous behavior unrepentantly even after being warned of their behavior, they've crossed into "idolator" territory. Thus, if the behavior in the LC is "idolatrous," then I think you skirt the issue by not saying they are "idolators" and all that goes with that. If we are going to be serious about idolatry, then we pursue it to its logical and scriptural conclusions. If the behavior you speak of is idolatry - the same idolatry that Paul was witnessing in Corinth - then we must not even sit down at a table with someone from the LC. Definitions have consequences. Defining something as "idolatry" has this consequence, according to the Word. At one point, Thankful mentioned certain behavior being "in the principle of idolatry." Given that our response to real idolatry must be so stark (i.e. cast out the idolators), I think it is real dangerous to begin talking about the "in the principle of idolatry". Does that clarify the point I was trying to make? Peter
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09-10-2008, 08:53 AM
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#782 |
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The truth is simple
Peter,
What I like about the truth is that it is simple. The Lord didn't put it out of reach of those who aren't so "smart." You have nailed it in a simple way, and that should put the whole "idolatry" thing to rest. But somehow I know it won’t. "Theologians" love to opine. When Paul told the Corinthians that they shouldn't eat with idolaters, he simply meant not to eat with people who literally worship idols. We must keep the historical context in mind, always, when we read these dated writings. There were those who literally worshiped graven images, and even offered up their food to these idols. You are right. He meant don't spend time with those who literally bow themselves to idols. It’s not any more complicated than that. Witness Lee had a knack for taking simple teachings in the Bible and blowing them up into mushrooms of “truth.” I think that’s what’s going on here. If Paul would have had Matt's definition of idolatry in mind, his word about not eating with idolaters would have effectively disbanded the whole church. According to his definition, those who said they were of Paul, were guilty of worshiping him as an idol. Those who said they were of Apollos, likewise, would have been guilty of idolatry, and so on. The very few in the church in Corinth who didn't engage in "idolatry," would have been forbidden from eating with those who say they are of whomever. Isn't the problem with the Living Stream Church that they basically say: "I am of Lee." As members of His Body, joined to Him as our ascended Head, we are indeed called upon to extend His mercy and grace to all the brothers and sisters, while at the same time discerning the system. A consciousness of the Body of Christ (and I don't mean "the baaaaaaaahdy") is indeed one of the wonderful things that we have inherited from the teachings of Sparks, Nee, and even to a degree Lee. It balances our selfish tendency to only focus on "Jesus and me." Branding all the brothers and sisters who remain in the Local Church as “idolaters” it totally without His mercy. The word is clear that if we are harsh and merciless to others, we can expect the same from the Father. Roger |
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09-10-2008, 09:17 AM
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#783 | ||
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I'm tired of your jabs. Who would ever claim that I was a "theologian"? I wouldn't claim it. Do I think about things. Absolutely, yes. Why? Because my parents raised me in a sect (some say, cult) of Christianity and I've been forced to really think to clear all the crud out of my head. I'll respond substantively to Peter, because he is bringing forward some very good things for consideration. Quote:
I agree with you about mercy, but God is not slack with his mercy. You have to know that he is both holy and full of mercy. The two fit together. If you only focus on the mercy, then you err. If you only focus on the holiness, then you err. Sorry, but I am going to start calling you out personally on some of your comments from now on. Matt P.S. I don't mind your substantive comments. You have a very bad habit of focusing things personally. I put up with it on the other forum as moderator out of care for you. I took a lot of heat for it. Let's call a spade a spade. You misbehaved there. You're doing it again. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 09:27 AM. |
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09-10-2008, 09:43 AM
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Thanks for your comments to me, personally. I know I have frustrated a number of people and they are speaking out of some frustration. I just did in my last post to Roger. You are correct that the issue of idolatry shouldn't be applied indiscriminately upon N.T. believers. Fact: The Local Churches of Witness Lee are a very, very small minority of the Body of Christ. For me to apply comments to the whole of the LC is actually to talk about a small piece of the Body of Christ. It's like talking about a portion of the humorous bone in the arm. Final Question: Did you or did you not give your allegiance to the "the vision of the church" or "christ and the church" (intentionally or unintentionally)? If I didn't get it quite right, please tell me what you did give your allegiance to. Can you honestly say that you only gave your allegiance to Christ? This is what I am talking about. Right now, I'm asking about you. After you answer this, then begin to ask yourself who did not do this? Matt P.S. I'm not trying to make you out to be a bad person through my last question. You are not a bad person. You have a great heart towards others. I'm asking you to bear a true and solemn witness. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 10:10 AM. |
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09-10-2008, 10:11 AM
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Matt, You can call me out all you want to. I'm not scared of you. When you try to dominate a thread with your personal views, with volumes and volumes of posts, you come across as a "theologian." I thought it reasonable that you start an idolatry thread. You insist that you would rather make idolatry the main focus of abuse in the Local Church. Many here don’t agree with that view, but your barrel ahead anyway. Over at the Bereans forum you could shut me down and lock my threads whenever you wanted to. Over here you can probably effectively do the same. Go for it. I don't care. You want to talk about misbehavior on the other forum, your hands are not clean. You struggled hard to stay moderator over there, now there is almost nothing left to moderate. Roger |
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09-10-2008, 10:42 AM
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#786 |
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You don't have to be afraid of me. However, I don't have to put up with your misbehavior when it is directed at me. I can call you out on it and tell you that I think it is wrong.
I never claimed to be clean. I've had to repent on a number of occasions. I don't paint myself white. It's not appropriate. I treated you well on the other forum and you know it. Moderating you was the exception and not the rule. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 12:46 PM. |
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09-10-2008, 10:49 AM
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#787 |
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
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Key Word is Allegiance
Dear Matt,
You asked a poster, "Final Question: Did you or did you not give your allegiance to the "the vision of the church" or "christ and the church" (intentionally or unintentionally)? If I didn't get it quite right, please tell me what you did give your allegiance to. Can you honestly say that you only gave your allegiance to Christ? This is what I am talking about. Right now, I'm asking about you. After you answer this, then begin to ask yourself who did not do this? I think this is one of the questions you asked me or something like it. (I have lost track of Matt's questions for me and have asked him to PM me with his list. I will try to answer.) The key word is allegiance. I always considered my allegiance to be to Christ. On the other hand, there is 2 Cor 8:5, and this, not as we had expected, but they first gave themselves to the Lord and to us by the will of God. NASB At times we will join with others in our service to the Lord. We are not Lone Rangers but rather members one of another. We all should have some vision regarding the full counsel of God, Acts 20:27, For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. NKJV As far as what we are doing as a believer in Christ, our Christian service and work needs to be with a clear view or vision. 1 Cor 3:10-15, 10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire. NASB We cannot claim our allegiance is only to Christ and then conduct ourselves without regard to the Will of God. Col 4:11-12 12 Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bondslave of Jesus Christ, sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers, that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God. NASB Heb 10:36 36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. NASB 1 Peter 4:2 2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. NASB 1 John 2:17 17 And the world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God abides forever. NASB Also consider the following passage: 2 Thess 3:4-5 4 And we have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you are doing and will continue to do what we command. 5 And may the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God and into the steadfastness of Christ. NASB While we are seeking to have our allegiance to Christ alone, it is okay to be open for fellowship. But our ability to fully follow the Lord and be pleasing to Him depends on our being willing to be directed by the Lord Himself. But to be directed by the Lord Himself does not mean we never listen to anyone else or receive wise counsel from another saint or have no guiding principles. For example, I would never accept someone declaring they are following only Christ and that Christ has led them to abandon their children. In Christ Jesus there is Hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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09-10-2008, 11:53 AM
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#788 | |
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Quote:
This is really a non sequitur. Even if Roger answers in the affirmative it doesn't prove anything. The Bible tells us to love one another. Some have given themselves to love others. The Bible tells us to preach the gospel. Some have sold out for the gospel. The Bible tells us to cleave to what is good and delight in the truth. Many do these things. Are these people then idolaters because their allegiance is to "something other that Christ?" No, they are simply doing what they feel the Bible tells them to do. To cleave to a vision one feels the Bible gives is not wrong. Certainly a person can get imbalanced by emphasizing something too much, but it hardly amounts to idolatry. The Bible gives us a vision of Christ with his Church. To argue against this is to simply say you haven't read the Bible. Is it all the Bible talks about? No. But it is a big factor. Some love that vision. The vast majority don't love it for itself, but because they feel it is what the Lord loves and has commanded them to carry out. Trying to make that seem like idolatry is simply barking up the wrong tree. Last edited by Cal; 09-10-2008 at 11:59 AM. |
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09-10-2008, 12:36 PM
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#789 |
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Igzy,
I was asking Ohio, not Roger. I'm not practicing the art of argumentation for the sake of winning an argument on this thread. I am making an entreaty. As such, I do not expect to prove anything to anyone's satisfaction. In the realm of proving something, I have already made plenty of headway regardless of whether anyone agrees with my personal conclusions or viewpoint. However, this wasn't and still isn't my goal. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 12:43 PM. |
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09-10-2008, 01:23 PM
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#790 |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,793
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Upon reviewing many of the posts in this thread, and considering what are the practical implications of idolatry in the Local Church movement, I was reminded of the Lord’s own words in Matthew 5:28
“but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (now don’t ask me why this verse all of the sudden popped into my silly mind…I guess I was thinking about how the Lord many times equated and connected one sin with another more serious sin – in this case he likened the simple act of looking with the very serious sin of adultery) Originally, I went to check further on this word “committed”, and to my surprise, I found that the Lord Jesus used a certain Hebrew idiom here (translated “has committed adultery”). Above and beyond the obvious meaning, many sources give the following for this word “Moicheuō” “A Hebrew idiom, the word is used of those who at a woman's solicitation are drawn away to idolatry, i.e. to the eating of things sacrificed to idols” Now don’t get mad at me guys…I’m not the one who linked yet another sin to idolatry – that was done by the Lord Jesus himself and that was confirmed by several scholars of the biblical languages! Look, most of us have been Christians and have been reading the Bible for many years. We know very well that every sin is not a sin of idolatry, and idolatry is not the basis of every evil in the Christian church or in the lives of most Christians. But we are not here discussing “most churches” or “most Christians” now are we? My contention here would be very basic and very simple. (as if UntoHim is capable of more ) Many, if not most, Local Churchers idolized the man Witness Lee. Many, if not most, idolized just about everything that came from this man’s mouth. Many, if not most, even idolized the “vision” that Lee and his co-workers so passionately and forcefully related to us day in and day out. Soon we found ourselves idolizing the religion of the Local Church that spring forth from this vision. Some of the teachings and practices of this religion were good and biblical, many were arguably harmful and unbiblical. The main point here would not be the percentage of good to bad or biblical to unbiblical, but that fact that the teachings and practices themselves were idolized.Did we bow and worship the man Witness Lee? No, I never saw it. Did we literally bow down at the alter of the Life Studies and other speakings/writings of Nee and Lee? No, not literally. Did we climb to the top of a smoldering volcano and sacrifice our family members, spouses and children? No, I never saw it. Now let me do some equating of my own and take us back to the sobering declaration of the Lord in Matthew 5:28… “but I say unto you that everyone who looks…has already committed..” – Sorry my dear brothers and sisters…we looked. Then we looked some more, then we looked some more. Now, from what I have seen and heard coming from the Local Church movement lately they are still looking...big time.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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09-10-2008, 01:27 PM
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#791 | |
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Location: USA
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Quote:
The main problem in the LC is not idolatry. The main problem is the pressure to conform based on a warped vision of authority. The pressure probably leads people to cheerlead "Christ and the Church" in an imbalanced way, because that is what the authoritry figures demand. But that doesn't make the cheerleading idolatry. The problem is much more complex than that. It's a system of psychological checks and barriers which convinces LCers that they have no choice but to (1) stay in the movement and (2) obey the leadership. What needs to be dismantled is that system which holds them there. I doubt many LCers stay in the movement just so they can hold onto idols. Last edited by Cal; 09-10-2008 at 01:33 PM. |
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09-10-2008, 02:58 PM
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#792 | |
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Quote:
I wasn't aware that there was a Hebrew idiom preserved here in the Greek New Testament but it certainly does warrant further investigation if true.
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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09-10-2008, 03:01 PM
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#793 | ||
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Quote:
1. The "giving" of oneself to the "vision of the church" was far more than the what happens in Campus Crusade. 2. Campus Crusade has proven itself to be an organization with high integrity. They are not like the LC. I think you've made the logical error of a false analogy. Quote:
When I have been in sin of a more serious and fundamental sort, I haven't been quick to acknowledge what I am doing or have done. I like to shape it into something other than what it is. Eventually, the Lord gets through. Thank the Lord. Where do you find "psychological barriers" in the Bible? Or to what do you equate it in the word? Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-10-2008 at 03:09 PM. |
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09-10-2008, 03:53 PM
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#794 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
Those Christians, whom I have known over the years, who claimed to only have "allegiance" to Christ, were immature loners, prideful and judgmental. Some had been burnt pretty badly by religion, and could see hypocrisy in every church, hence would never commit themselves to anything. Btw, what did you think about my earlier comments on idolatry?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-10-2008, 05:04 PM
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#795 | |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,793
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Quote:
YP, not that this was the crux to my post, I'll indulge your inquiry From: www.BlueLetterBible.Org http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/l...gs=G3431&t=kjv Lexicon Results for moicheuō (Strong's G3431) Greek for G3431 μοιχεύω Transliteration moicheuō Root Word (Etymology) from G3432 Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to commit adultery a) to be an adulterer b) to commit adultery with, have unlawful intercourse with another's wife c) of the wife: to suffer adultery, be debauched d) A Hebrew idiom, the word is used of those who at a woman's solicitation are drawn away to idolatry, i.e. to the eating of things sacrificed to idols ----------------------------------------------------------- From: Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words Adulterer (-ess), Adulterous, Adultery A1. Adulterer (-ess), Adulterous, Adultery [Noun] moichos denotes one "who has unlawful intercourse with the spouse of another," Luke_18:11; 1_Cor_6:9; Heb_13:4. As to James_4:4, see below. A2. Adulterer (-ess), Adulterous, Adultery [Noun] moichalis "an adulteress," is used (a) in the natural sense, 2_Pet_2:14; Rom_7:3; (b) in the spiritual sense, James_4:4; here the RV rightly omits the word "adulterers." It was added by a copyist. As in Israel the breach of their relationship with God through their idolatry, was described as "adultery" or "harlotry" (e.g., Ezek_16:15ff; Ezek_23:43), so believers who cultivate friendship with the world, thus breaking their spiritual union with Christ, are spiritual "adulteresses," having been spiritually united to Him as wife to husband, Rom_7:4. It is used adjectivally to describe the Jewish people in transferring their affections from God, Matt_12:39; Matt_16:4; Mark_8:38. In 2_Pet_2:14, the lit. translation is "full of an adulteress" (RV, marg.). A3. Adulterer (-ess), Adulterous, Adultery [Noun] moicheia "adultery," is found in Matt_15:19; Mark_7:21; John_8:3 (AV only). B1. Adulterer (-ess), Adulterous, Adultery [Verb] moichao used in the Middle Voice in the NT, is said of men in Matt_5:32; Matt_19:9; Mark_10:11; of women in Mark_10:10. B2. Adulterer (-ess), Adulterous, Adultery [Verb] moicheuo is used in Matt_5:27,28,32 (in Matt_5:32 some texts have moichao); Matt_19:18; Mark_10:19; Luke_16:18; Luke_18:20; John_8:4; Rom_2:22; Rom_13:9; James_2:11; in Rev_2:22, metaphorically, of those who are by a Jezebel's solicitations drawn away to idolatry. There are a couple of other references that I can't seem to find right now. Now, can I talk you into actually addressing the main theme of my post?
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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09-10-2008, 06:07 PM
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#796 |
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Sorry. No.
The citations given are inadequate and it does not say what was posted. Sorry.
The Blue Letter Bible reference is merely a poor rewording of the Thayer's Lexicon entry. Read that entry in the original volume to understand what it's supposed to mean. They have taken the original defintion out of the full context with references and it makes no sense now. That defintion refers to the use of the term in Rev. 2:22, where it IS used in that fashion. W.E. Vine clearly is also referring to the same particular use of the term, rather than making any assertion about the Greek word itself being a "Hebrew idiom" which is just purely nonsensical. Aristotle and Plato used this word. It is no "Hebrew idiom." As to the substance of the post otherwise, I think the exploration about the topic of idolatry as addressed in 1 Corinthians and as spoken of recently in brief by our brothers here is by far more enlightening than anything I have seen posted on this interminable thread in attacking the LC members, present or past, in the name of a crusade about the supposed and exaggerated "idolatry" of that, that or the other. In 1 Cor. Paul never labeled either the partisans nor the tongues-uplifters as idolatrous in that letter which also directly addresses the topic of idolatry. There was partisanship, there was a lack of love, there was disorder in the meetings, there was idolatry, there was heresy regarding resurrection, there was a whole laundry list of problems. Paul did not glom all these things together with the sort of lack of discernment paraded about boldly here. There is simply no New Testament basis for the entire premise allegedly being explored. According to my appreciation, some here desire to be law teachers without understanding what they are talking about and this thread is mere vain speaking. But I know how to use the reference books, so, I just had to pipe up there. I'm back to lurkdom now, I'm afraid. There's just simply nothing to engage here, but I do encourage those who have the gift of sufficient grace to continue if they feel to plant seed and water. Regardless, we do all need to take heed how we tend God's farm and build. Grace be with you all.
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 Last edited by YP0534; 09-10-2008 at 06:31 PM. Reason: too broad a crusade to be termed "personal" |
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09-10-2008, 06:41 PM
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#797 |
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Member
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Location: Durham, North Carolina
Posts: 313
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Does "i Am Of Christ" Equal Allegiance Only To Christ?
I have been considering the recent direction of the forum. Consider this passage.
1 Cor 1:10-13, 10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree, and there be no divisions among you, but you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. 12 Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." 13 Has Christ been divided? NASB I have been considering this question of only having allegiance to Christ and that anything else is idolatry. It seems that the “you must have allegiance only to Christ” while sounding very good is similar to the “I of Christ” division. Put the above passage with Ephesians 4. Eph 4:1-4, I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, entreat you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing forbearance to one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body … NASB There has been a lot of discussion about the alleged “we are it” factor in the lc. It has been pointed out that this is divisive and rightly so. Some have assumed that this was the appeal to many in why they joined in with a lc. I can never remember this being a point to persuade someone to be a part of the lc. But unfortunately eventually this became one of the prevailing mind sets. Had WL stressed Eph. Chapter 4 and having a worthy walk in humility and gentleness etc rather than “the one church one city” we would have had a different outcome. Making an effort to point out the errors of others does not fit “with all humility and gentleness.” It seems to me that perhaps the mindset of “I of Christ” could be the most divisive since it certainly is saturated with the “we are it” attitude. It also seems to be a slippery slope toward pride and obsession with the errors and short comings of other believers. In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all, Hope, Don Rutledge |
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09-10-2008, 06:45 PM
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#798 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Quote:
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-10-2008, 06:56 PM
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#799 | |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,793
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YP, I've got no problem with you trying to school me on references (I'll take Mr. Strong and Mr. Vine up against Thayer - none of them were around when the Lord Jesus spoke these words, nor were they around when Matthew wrote his gospel in biblical Greek) Besides, I already warned you that all the minutia surrounding the wider definition of "committed adultery" does not make or break the main contentions of my post.
If you want to say that the average Local Churcher does not "idolize" Witness Lee and his speaking, and that they are not now "idolizing" his ministry, and have not formed and virtually idolize a religious system built around this ministry, well then all I can say is that you are "out of the loop" when it comes to the Local Church of Witness Lee movement. Furthermore, simply pointing out that such things are happening within a group of wayward Christians is not "attacking" them as individuals. I just attended a couple of the Labor Day "blending conference" meetings, at which a well known "blended brother" was the speaker. At the beginning of both of the meetings they "pray-read" part of the outline...that's right, NOT the holy Word of God...the outline...the mere words of a mere man...There was also a lot of exalting (I would say idolizing) of Witness Lee himself (as usual). There was also a lot of bragging and exalting (I would say idolizing) of the little sect of the Local Church of Witness Lee (as usual) Again: Quote:
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09-10-2008, 08:42 PM
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#800 | ||
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Location: USA
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Far more what? Are you saying more zealousness constitutes a difference in kind? As to your point about integrity, I'm not talking about the intentions of leadership. I'm talking about the heart of the rank and file. Their giving themselves to the vision of the church is usually a matter of high integrity. They might be misled, but in general I don't recall their devotion to the vision of the church being motivated by a lack of integrity. Quite the opposite in fact, part of the problem is too much integrity of a somewhat naive kind. Quote:
4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Corinthians 10:4-5 |
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09-10-2008, 09:34 PM
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#801 |
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Location: USA
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Matt, et al,
I've been thinking about this idolatry issue and here's the problem I have with it. If there is idolatry in the LC system it's a symptom, not a root cause. LCers don't think Lee is the minister of the age because they idolize him, they idolize him because they think he's the minister of the age. This may seem at first like an empty distinction, but I believe it is crucial. Because of the dynamics of the LC view of authority and oneness, LCers generally believe what they are told to believe. They don't obey unquestioningly because they are idolaters, they do so because they believe in a false system of authority and oneness, and fear the consequences of resisting it. This warped system more or less pushes them into something that appears like idolatry, but this something is still a symptom of that mindset. In fact, I think the LC adulation of Lee and the features of his ministry is in many cases a reaction somewhat similar to what's known as the Stockholm Syndrome, the phenomenon which occurs when hostages begin to show loyalty to their captors, even in the face of grave danger. When someone has immense power over a human being, the human mind tends to begin to give the person in power the benefit of the doubt, in order to make itself feel better about the situation it is in, and thus deal with it better. Better to be controlled by a saint than an ogre, and since the subordinate is controlled either way, the situation is much easier to swallow if the subordinate thinks of his controller as a saint. This is a "defense mechanism of identification"*, i.e the controlled identifies with the controller to achieve reassurance that he's not threatened. Now some, (I'm thinking SC) are probably chortling in their glasses of milk right now, but I think I have a point. LCers are first taught that Lee is the minister of the age. Since they feel (due to their extreme set of beliefs regarding authority and oneness) that they have no choice in the matter, and since they cannot exist in their society without going along with this, it is much easier to embrace and even champion Lee's special standing than it is to truly think critically about it. So the idolizing, if it exists, is a symptom, a result of a mind trapped in a set of beliefs in which the only way to find wholeness is either to reject the beliefs outright or embrace them to the nth degree. So Matt does has some points to make. But I think he is attacking a symptom, not a cause. Igzy * Wikipedia Last edited by Cal; 09-10-2008 at 10:09 PM. |
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09-11-2008, 04:34 AM
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#802 |
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Member
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Location: North of Mansfield Ohio
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Very good points by all.
As to idolatry being a symptom and not the cause... If you will notice, most medication is for the "symptom" and not the cause. So, it is not wrong to treat a symptom, but we must not forget the cause...Because the symptoms will return. Sue |
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09-11-2008, 04:49 AM
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#803 | |
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Quote:
I read your whole post, but I believe that you have made an error in reasoning in this one sentence. Sin is the root cause. Idolatry is a sin as are other things. Paul gives some indication that "covetousness" is a root cause of idolatry. Coveting is also a sin. Can you share with me what you believe the root cause is in terms of sin as God defines it. Otherwise your shifting the target and possible moving to a symptomatic root cause that does not match what is in God's mind. God is the standard, not our conceptions of things. Your other thoughts about the root cause are shifting the focus away from sin. We have to be faithful (and careful) to look from God's point of view. Sometimes it is harder to understand things from His point of view, but His Word endures forever. These other concepts and issues that you bring forward do not endure forever. To the best of my ability I am addressing root causes from God's point of view. The best objective reference I have for that is His Word. Your introducing modern conceptions of men that are not built upon solid ground or a firm foundation. Sorry, but I have to call that out. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-11-2008 at 05:43 AM. |
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09-11-2008, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Once Paul was converted he became a most zealous Christian. This characteristic of Paul's was still there. What was different? Truth vs. Deception. Before his conversion his zeal was used in ignorance. After his conversion he began to use his zeal in coming to a full knowledge of God through Christ Jesus. What did Paul do when he realized he was deceived? He repented and went out and searched the scriptures to dig down on the truth. The same is true with those of us who are zealous. We have to add another one of Paul's concepts here. The flesh versus the spirit. Many chased after spiritual things "in the flesh". We see that outcome today in many LSM/LC's. In their pride they cling to it. We also see those who could not continue and fell out of the LC's. They passed through a kind of "death", but God was faithful to "resurrect" them back to life. Now it is time to purge out the leaven. My point here is that misguided zealotry is very serious. We cannot look at the heart of the rank and file as an indicator. We have to observe the deeds. Murder is murder. Paul knew it. He was chief among Jews, but the least among christians. Why? Because he had been party to one of the most heinous sins. Paul's response to misguided zeal was repentance, not defensiveness. Quote:
The truth is that idolatry (even systematic idolatry) and it's impact on all participants in the LC is one of the factual elements of truth that must be confronted. There were few, if any, that did not give themselves (in ignorance) to something that was idolatrous. Our ignorance does not protect us from the consequences of our sin. There are attempts being made to say, "let's not lose the positive things" of the LC. The fact is that each person (which includes everyone on this forum that I know of) has held onto Christ. He has been faithful to you. This is the positive thing. He has set many of you in a family of believers in your respective locations after you were lost. We have fellowship with one another. This means we have not lost the positive. After being faithful to purge out all of the leaven, then let's talk about the "positives". I take this approach because this is the approach God takes. My life and my testimony stand witness that the leaven needs to be purged before you begin to praise yourself for your involvements in a regime that was leavened by the Enemy and whose practices were formulated in hell. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-11-2008 at 05:52 AM. |
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09-11-2008, 05:16 AM
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#805 | |
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Quote:
I don't have time to reframe my question just yet about "allegiance". I'm not trying to "trap" you. I am looking for what you can honestly acknowledge that you did when you "gave" yourself to "Christ and the church" in the context of the LC. 1. What can you share about that? I'm asking for a solemn witness which means I am not asking for any positive or negative spin. Share what you understood your "pledge"/"commitment"/"giving of yourself" to be at that time. 2. Looking backwards at that commitment today, would you do it any differently today knowing what you know now? If so, what would be the difference? (Note: this 2nd question is a little broader than just your reconsideration of your original act of commitment to the LC vision.) Hope, since you responded I'd like to hear your answer to those questions to. My time is up for this morning, but your (Ohio) points about idolatry were very good. It is going to take me into the weekend to be able to respond. You've hit an element of history that I believe is "echoing" from further into the past. I want to present the previous element in history that I believe may be what establishes the "echo" you have pointed out. Remind me again if I don't respond in a timely manner. I am not ignoring it. It's just going to take me a good 3-5 hours to pull the materials together to present. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-11-2008 at 05:22 AM. |
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09-11-2008, 05:39 AM
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#806 |
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Posts: 22
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Campus Crusade for Christ
I think its completely off base to compare LC with Campus Crusade. The complete and total focus of the ministry of Campus Crusade is loving, knowing and sharing Jesus. That's it...nothing else and no one else! I definitely think its very off base to try and clump Crusade together with a group that focuses very little on Jesus! I'm insulted!!!
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09-11-2008, 05:41 AM
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#807 | |
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Matt |
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09-11-2008, 05:57 AM
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#808 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
And to continue your thought ... much of the problem developed over time using a corruption of semantics. Originally, when I thought of "Christ and the church," my heart fell in love with the Spirit living in the other believers. That was very attractive. That was very Biblical. And that was worth getting excited about! And I did ... and, yes ... maybe I was far too radical for this great "ideal." (Notice I did not say "vision," because that's now a "bad" word. )Eventually, "Christ and the church" became no more just the brothers around me, but those brothers in the ministry -- what are they doing and saying. As I have stated before, this change in Ohio occurred dramatically circa 1985. That's not to say there were no personal leadership issues before that -- I have a number of complaints too -- very serious ones -- which could all be summarized as "lording it over" the flock. As time progressed, our vocabulary changed, not so much in the words themselves, but in their meanings -- semantics, a corruption of semantics. Words had "loaded" meanings. We had one definition for "insiders" and one definition for "outsiders." I for one just got tired of all the "word games." A notable example was the scope of LSM -- for outsiders it was just a publisher, but for insiders 'twas a whole nuther story. I think Apostle Paul confronted these same word games and in frustration declared "let your yes be yes and your no be no." Words are a great way to manipulate people. Whether it be "oneness" or "the body," LSM has corrupted the meanings with the purpose of controlling churches and saints. The BB's have all become "Word-Smiths" -- masters of word meanings. Any kind of positive blessing which LSM once provided has long been gone. This is part of the reason why, when we discuss the topic of abuse, there are so many "agreers," and when we talk idolatry, there are so many "disagreers."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-11-2008, 06:26 AM
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#809 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
It is better for us to just present our views, with scripture if possible, than to tell others that we are defining God's way. Let the reader decide how much God "endorses" our posts. That sounds a little too much like the "ministry" we have left.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-11-2008, 06:36 AM
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#810 | |
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Quote:
Thanks for your view and I am glad you are not willing to be easily swayed as you were in the past. We should each be persuaded in our own minds. Matt P.S. I must admit for the first time on this thread, I find your post personally offensive. We should speak in person. I will call you. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-11-2008 at 06:42 AM. |
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09-11-2008, 06:52 AM
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#811 | |
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Location: USA
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Quote:
It goes without saying that our sin nature is the source of all pathological human behavior. But specifically sinning is not necessarily the source of a problem. A person can suffer from the consequences of our sinful nature and the warped thinking it produces without having specifically sinned in the area they are being affected. There is nothing modern about what I'm introducing. Since the fall, human nature has always been human nature. People behave the way they've always behaved because they have always been human. Yes, our nature is affected by sin, and sin is the source of all pathological behavior. And Jesus Christ is the solution to sin. Yes, we know that. But simply saying "Jesus Christ is the solution for sin" or "you need to repent" may not be enough to get someone out of a destructive behavior pattern. People often need wisdom and counseling on the specifics of how human nature operates to avoid the pitfalls which accompany it. For example, I'm sure you'd agree that understanding the differences between men and women is a key to marriage success. Would you argue that sharing such insights is "something modern" and therefore inadmissible to Christian fellowship? Proverbs if full of insights into human nature. It doesn't just say "don't sin." It gives insight into specific things to avoid and into how humans tend to react in certain situations. Knowing what to expect is a characteristic of wisdom. The tendency to eventually identify with oppressors is an observable phenomenon which has happened over and over in history. It is not a theory. It's a characteristic of our fallen nature. This characteristic is, I believe, at work in the minds of some LCers. Bringing it to light is not out of bounds nor a side issue. Yes, sin is the ultimate source of this, but sinning may not be. A person can be innocent and still subject to the pitfalls of human nature. Last edited by Cal; 09-11-2008 at 07:29 AM. |
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09-11-2008, 07:00 AM
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#812 | |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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I say that rather the problem is they are misguided and that something resembling idolatry is the symptom of that misguidedness, which specifically is giving too much authority to men and thinking oneness means ignoring any problems. |
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09-11-2008, 07:15 AM
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#813 | |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Quote:
I encourage you to read the last chapter of "The Torch of the Testimony" by John Kennedy, a book your mother has recommended. There Kennedy makes the very important point that the testimony of the Church is mainly a testimony of positive truth, not a testimony of exposing evil. As I've said before, this is one of the problems of a forum such as this. It tends to get us on the track of exposing evil. Our main testimony should be to the Person of Christ. That should be our focus. I'm sure you have encountered self-appointed "error exposing" ministries on the Internet. Don't they seem a bit contentious and weird to you? Once one starts to think one's calling is to expose every error (as one sees it) one has gotten off track. Our main focus should be to bring people to Christ. Yes, we sometimes reprove, but reproving shouldn't be the meat of our ministry. Besides, I doubt all the leaven is purged out of your or anyone else's life. But we still have to get along as best we can. We don't wait to be perfect before we the praise the Lord. |
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09-11-2008, 07:34 AM
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#814 |
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Member
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It's been interesting to me to watch the normal LC detractors rise up against Matt in his claim that that LC is systemically idolatrous. I agree with those who are arguing against Matt's thesis, but I actually think Matt has a legitimate point. That point is that there was an element of idolizing Lee in the LC from as far back as I can remember. I recall a brother telling me in 1975 that W. Lee had a color TV ... just for watching the news. This was shocking since the saints around me at the time had cast out television. So here was a brother showing me just how above it all Lee was, having an evil TV but using it in a spiritual way.
I hated that kind of Lee rationalization then and I hate it now. I also recall how I myself used to begin so many testimonies with, "Brother Lee said ..." I did that to give honest credit to my source, but it got so bad I was called on it by a sometimes attender of our meetings. I recall how when Lee died, I received a tape from an Anaheim meeting in which saints came to the mike one by one and told glowing stories of him, one of them saying something like, "And just before he died his face shone like that of an angel." I almost vomited when I heard that. So, yes, there was an element -- a strong element -- of Lee-dolatry in the Lc and I was party to it. But here's where I differ with Matt: it wasn't displacing Christ. During my most fervent days in the "recovery" I found myself in the Word more, musing on Christ more, praying more, preaching the gospel more than any other time in my life. Lee was a servant who pointed me to Christ. My mistake -- and that of many others -- was to overly embrace this servant much as someone hugs the man who hands him the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstake check. I have now put away that small idol. I still appreciate and respect the ministry of Witness Lee very much but I no longer quote him incessantly, no longer think he was just about 1 helium molecule away from float-off-into-heaven rapture. He was a man, flawed like all of us, who had a ministry which pointed people to Christ. Matt is wrong to spend so much time trying to diminish this man. SC |
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09-11-2008, 07:57 AM
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#815 |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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SC,
Well-stated post. (Always, the devil's advocate, eh?) However, I believe that which encourages idolatry is systemic in the LCS. That is, the system which gives men more authority than they should rightfully have, the doctrine of absolute submission. If your goal is to free people from the LCS, this should be your target, IMHO. |
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09-11-2008, 08:48 AM
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#816 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Just a quick note before I'm gone for much of the day. The testimony of the church to the world is a "positive" one preaching and lifting up Christ. However, if there is evil (leaven) among believers, it must be purged out or there will be no testimony to the world of who He is. He is holy. The lump must be also. Purging out leaven is not one person's job, but all of ours. God will hold us all responsible for leaven in our midst. We all should be looking at the scriptures and measuring our beliefs by them. He gave us the capacity and the tools to do this. The Bible refutes a system of hierarchy that lords it over Gods people. It also refutes the idea of our submitting to dark authority. It refutes the idea of one man's ministry being "the" ministry all should follow. It also condemns establishing a oneness definition that is smaller than the whole Body of Christ which excludes real believers. These things are leaven. We participated to varying degrees in this leaven while participating in the LC. The changes that occurred in our hearts' attitude as a result of being involved in all these things do not evaporate somehow. Our heart is healed as we purge them out of ourselves. We need to let God expose every remnant in us of thinking and practice that came from such leaven. We need to help each other do this also. Thankful Jane |
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09-11-2008, 09:44 AM
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#817 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
Please read your post to Igzy again. You implied in several places that Igzy did not express "what is in God's mind," and instead he was using "modern human conceptions," not reaching up to "God's standard," and properly displaying "God's point of view." The tone of the post implied that you did. Actually, Igzy's comments were helpful to me. People who live in an abusive context (whether family, church, job, or even prison) often to go into a kind of "survivor mode." Whether it is only a display or not is hard to tell. Remember that movie "Cool Hand Luke"? He "idolized" the warden ... that is until his next chance to escape prison. Books on topics like co-dependency have even helped many a child of God. When I hear comments from some who say we should just speak up or stand up to an abusive bully, as if that is our God-given duty, don't have a clue what they are talking about. .................................................. ................................................. Meeting with another local congregation, I often hear things like "Did you hear what pastor said?" or "Pastor G. is so funny!" or "I just loved Pastor's message today! or "Pastor asked me to take charge of this, and it took me so much time." Do you think they all are guilty of idolatry? They talk about Pastor G. more than my LC talked about WL or TC. What does that mean when I was "easily swayed in the past"? Have I joined one more idolatrous church? This church even has xmas trees in December, which I hate, based on Jer.10. Does any one meet with a congregation / assembly which is completely free from idolatry? Since I went from the RCC to the LC, obviously I have little discernment for idols.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-11-2008, 10:23 AM
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#818 | |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Quote:
Your point is well-taken. But I would add that our testimony to each other should also be as positive as we hope it is to the world. A testimony which is chirpy to the world, but beats its own up in private is creepy. As a rule, we should preach the positiveness of Christ to each other, that's part of being gracious. It's not that there is anything wrong with pointing out sin in others if one feels compelled to do so and does it humbly, always considering "there but for the grace of God go I." It's just a matter of degree and emphasis. You can look at your face in the mirror and see it as a whole being reasonably attractive, or you can look for the flaws and see only the ugliness. Then you can focus to a pathological level on fixing the flaws and end up with a face like Michael Jackson's. There are serious errors in the LC mindset and I don't mind pointing them out. I don't mind your doing it either. But if I myself focused on those and never saw or commented on the positive, well, I hope no one ever does that to me. John Nelson Darby, as Kennedy points out in TTOTT, was a seriously flawed leader. He had a mental stronghold of perfectionism that needed overthrowing and apparently never was. As Kennedy wrote, Darby would rather destroy the church than give in on a principle he thought was right. Lee had a similar problem, which led to a similar intolerance. Both of them probably thought they were just trying to purge out leaven, too. Let's just be careful, that's all I'm saying. As Waylon Jennings sang, what goes around comes around. |
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09-11-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
I know when you talk about "normal LC detractors," you can't possibly be talking about me...er...right? Anyway, I agree that Matt has a legitimate point; but not THE legitimate point - which has been MY point all along. This thread talks about abuse in the Local Church. Many of us have suffered abbuse to some degree or another, and we all have different perspectives on what was the cause of that abuse. Personally, I think peer pressure and culture are a far more profitable line to consider, in consideration of trying to help current members understand what is going on with them. How many will be convinced that they are engaging in idolatry simply by being a member of the Local Church? Matt did say that. That's of no help at all. Roger |
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09-11-2008, 12:12 PM
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#820 | |
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Posts: 152
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Quote:
Where did I say I had THE legitimate point? Please quote me. I have spoken strongly to establish the fact that there was widespread, pervasive idolatry in the LCS that affected every locality and almost every person. I've said the LCS is an idolatrous system. Maybe the strength of what I have said makes you think I think it is THE ONLY legitimate point, but that never entered my mind. I know you reacted to my use of the word 'idolatry' and likened it to the use of the word 'cult' on the other forum. The difference is this. Idolatry is a Biblical subject that is very important to God. Labeling a group as a 'cult' or 'not-a-cult' is not shown to be very important to God. What I believe is that it (idolatry) was "a factor" and yes, a serious one from God's point of view. I may even have said a "key factor", but never THE factor. I never said that simply being a member forced you to commit idolatry. What I said was that being a member caused most to stumble in regards to idolatry. There is a huge difference between these two. If you are in an environment that is full of a certain kind of problem and everyone is saying, "the water is fine, jump in, it feels great". What do most do? They jump in. Ohio, When I say God's point of view, I am talking about learning His language (I don't mean Hebrew) and His viewpoint as demonstrated through many stories in the OT. Paul recommends this approach and therefore my statements about it are about me taking Paul's good advice. It's not about thinking I stand in the position of God because I am trying to look at it from His point of view. I will still call you to clear the air on this matter. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-11-2008 at 12:43 PM. |
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09-11-2008, 03:11 PM
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#821 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
Can we do emails instead. Besides, methinks Brutus may get whooped on Saturday too, and that would be too much for me to take.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-11-2008, 03:22 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Location: Toledo
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Quote:
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So far you have not made your case. Perhaps that's why there is so much resistance. You started with "the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry." However, though there were and are undeniably serious problems in the local churches, you have yet to establish that idolatry is a "fact". Rather it remains only your personal assertion.
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-11-2008, 03:49 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Location: Toledo
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Quote:
Even so, I did not idolize Brother Lee. I thought, and continue to think, that he was a terrific bible teacher. Quote:
I suppose what I am objecting to here is your term "LCers generally". The difficulty I have with many of the posts on this forum is that there is a common assumption that "LCers generally" conform to a certain mold. I am frankly astonished at many of the testimonies that I read here. Not that I do not accept them, but that I had not seen the like before. In the desire to lump all the local churches together and brand them all as equally evil and culpable, posters here tend to minimize or ignore significant differences that existed and still exist among the various local churches and regions. The seven churches in Revelation were all different -- Philadelphia was not Pergamos; Thyatira was not Laodicea. Quote:
2) I do not believe the eldership is a "false system of authority". It is clear in the scriptures that there are to be elders appointed in every church, and that we are to obey them: Obey them that have the rule over you and submit yourselves for they watch for your souls as they that must give account that they may do it with joy and not with grief for that is unprofitable for you. ~ Hebrews 13:17 However, I do not agree that there is any authority higher than that of the local elders. We do not submit to Anaheim nor to Cleveland or anywhere else.
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-11-2008, 03:54 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Quote:
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-11-2008, 05:08 PM
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I will have to wade through your volumes and volumes of lengthy posts to find it, but you did say something to the effect that just remaining in the group means you commit idolatry, or maybe are somhow associated with idolatry. I will find it and post it. But if you are softening your approach now, I applaud you. BTW, cultic activity and idolatry can very easily be proven to be one and the same. But for the record, I don't ever recall saying that the Local Church is an outright cult. What I have always insisted is that it is a sect of Christianity with cultic tendencies. Okay, so idolatry is an important thing to the Lord in the Bible. But so is adultery. How many times in the Old Testament does the Lord talk about Israel (the Church) going a whoring after strange gods? The case can be made, I suppose, that the Local Churches have gone a whoring after LSM. So then does that mean that just by being in the group, genuine seeking Christians who happen to find themselves there are guilty of spiritual adultery? I don't think so; and I don't think we can take that kind of black and white approach to the saints who remain there. I have been one of the most harsh critics of the Local Church, for what it's worth. But I cannot bring myself to say that all the saints who find themselves there are engaging in idolatry. This is not a matter of everybody being in a pot of hot water. It's a matter of individual saints being dealt with on an individual basis. Those hypocrites who sit on their thrones over on LaPalma deserve to be exposed for all that they are. They are Witness Lee bobble heads, and they refuse to know anything else. Yes, they are true idolaters. There is little doubt that there is widespread idolatry in the Living Stream Churches. But many of us know too many saints personally to just paint them with the broad brush of "idolatry." This is not the Old Testament where the Lord just opens up the earth and swallows all who bowed before the golden calf. This is the age of grace. While we must learn from the examples of the Old Testament, I find that many who rely too heavily upon the Old Testament examples become harsh and judgmental. Did this not happen in the Local Church? Every time they want to judge you, they break out with the Old Testament examples. Did we not recently engage in a discussion about a leprous house and the need to re-plaster the walls? What a mockery of Old Testament usage that was! I still say there are many seeking Local Church members who are starting to eye the exit with favorability. They want to understand what is happening to them. There is psychological manipulation, peer pressure, cultural pressure and a whole host of things. These are the matters they need to become clear on. These are the things that started the lights to go off in me when I was at that point. If someone had come to me and blasted me with “IDOLATRY,” I’m not sure that would have mattered a hill of beans to me. But group dynamics, now there is something that is very easy to see. Roger PS I had posted this before reading Toledo's post. He has already quoted Matt in the matter of painting all Local Churchers with the broad brush of idolatry. So I can avoid that homework. Last edited by Paul Cox; 09-11-2008 at 05:15 PM. Reason: cuz I went ahead and finished reading the thread |
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09-11-2008, 05:41 PM
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#826 | |
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On the other hand, I am a pretty subjective kind of person and the things you write about in the first part of this quote are exactly the kinds of things that are interesting to me, and the knowledge that I needed when leaving the LC. But my husband --- now, he is a different duck from me. The discussion on idolatry would be very interesting to him, and would have been helpful to him while we were in that leaving process. So maybe both discussions are valuable. I would love to see lots more threads about the psychological manipulation, peer pressure, cultural pressure and group dynamics. I won't be on the forum much in the next 6 months, so sadly these threads will miss my wise additions. But go for it, you guys.Seeing you until Saturday, probably not much after that, finallyprettyokay - Last edited by finallyprettyokay; 09-11-2008 at 06:42 PM. Reason: use a better word |
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09-11-2008, 05:42 PM
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-11-2008, 09:47 PM
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I've my twosense to add. This allegiance you mention is different to many brothers and sisters. In my experience giving myself to "Christ and the Church" is not a pledge or an oath of allegaince. It was a matter of comitting my life to the Lord and my time to the locality I lived in. Other's might view Christ and the Church equalling Witness Lee's ministry. That was not my case. I have an appreciation of Witness Lee's ministry just as I do for Watchman Nee, Stephen Kaung, GH Pember, T. Austin Sparks, etc. If there's a suggestion brothers and sisters meet in the local churches because of Witness Lee's ministry. That is a misconception. That might be the case for a select minority, but not the majority. Brothers and sisters in the local churches would get offended if it was insinuated or flat out told they're better off meeting elsewhere if you're not here for Witness Lee's ministry. Most meeting in the local churches do have an appreciation for Witness Lee's ministry, but that's not why they're meeting in the local churches. It's because of Christ foremost and because of the need for a practical expression on the earth. Quite frankly Matt, the local churches don't need Living Stream Ministry in order to have a normal Christian church life. There is always the Bible. Terry |
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09-12-2008, 06:04 AM
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Posts: 152
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I knew there would be a lot of resistance to what I said and that few would buy it at the level I have been presenting it. Only God knows what is the right level at which we should estimate it. I'm going to do some thinking and see if I can clarify what I was saying in a clearer fashion without losing substance, but let me do a little lawyeresque fine-slicing from your quote of me for now... I said, "every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there..." The word it refers to the LC, not the Lord. If you fell in love with the LC then you went into a level of idolatry. The reason I say this is because the LC was almost never (except in the very early 60's) just the "church in your locality". It was a system of interconnected churches across many localities. It was interconnected by a particular ministry (Witness Lee's). We are not to worship the Body of Christ. We are to worship God. We are called to love the members of the Body, not the Body as a concept. This is part of what has happened in the LC. The Body of Christ has been worshipped on par with God. We see it in it's extreme form among the Blended's, but it was/is present in lesser forms among many, many more from the LC. I totally agree that my statement went to the extreme and I acknowledged that with my note on point #2 in post #152. Also, in post #152 I clearly stated that I did not consider myself an authority even though I was speaking strongly. Quote:
I've done what I have done on this thread knowingly and in good conscience before the Lord. Any personal offense I have caused I will clear up. I don't believe I have attacked anyone personally, although I will admit to giving Hope a hard time on some occasions and pushing back on a few others when they have come after me. When and if Hope thinks I've crossed the line with him personally, I am willing to address it. Peter Debelak introduced 1 Cor 5:11-12 as part of a question to me which I have not responded to yet. If you have a minute re-read 1 Corinthians 5. Take the context of the chapter in. There is serious sin in the midst of the Corinthians and Paul knows it needs to be dealt with. When I re-read to address Peter's question, I saw a verse I hadn't seen before. I've bolded it. It's one of my central concerns when it comes to this desire to highlight the "positives" from the past. No one thinks we should set Christ aside, but I've heard much glorying in the past of the LC in my travels around the Midwest and elsewhere. We even have a phrase that we have heard on these forums. It's the "glory days". 1 Corinthians 5:4-7 in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (5) to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (6) Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (7) Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ: A decent amount of my resistance has been to Hope and his desire to try and balance out the "negatives" with the "positives". Cleaning house based on past events is about focusing on the "negatives". Jesus Christ will take care of the positives by His Spirit. He will bless us with His presence when we are faithful to repent! I've made the strong point that right in the midst of the "glory days" you (collective you) were being leavened by an worker whose heart was not set totally on the Lord. Yes, Witness Lee. His deeds demonstrate a lot of seeking filthy lucre and selfish gain. Matt P.S. to SC - I've only been harping on Lee because the position he holds in people's heart. We have to confront some facts that are little known. I don't hate Lee. He had serious issues that he foisted on top of many believers and was allowed to get far too much power among the saints. The fact is that he is dead, but those left with him too high in their hearts need to confront the deeds of his past even before the US. If someone has fully confronted his deeds and still wants to read some of his material, then go for it. However, I strongly believe his writings would be a stumblingblock to a young believer because of the leaven in them. In my opinion, they should not be promoted to the uninformed. Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-12-2008 at 07:16 AM. |
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09-12-2008, 06:07 AM
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#830 | |
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If you go into the LC in your locality, I believe you know that you are not free to speak according to your conscience. Matt |
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09-12-2008, 06:14 AM
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I think you may already know this, but... Be sure to make note of the point Hope brought out in regards to the word "obey" in this verse. Study it in the Greek. It means to "be persuaded". It applies when a believer is in sin and needs to be convinced of their error and change their behavior. It also applies when it comes to being persuaded of something related to the truth. It does not apply in the case of "lordship" in things that are optional. In those things, each believer's freedom to follow the Lord directly without the involvement of "elders" should be upheld (yea, even fiercely defended). Elders (and I mean true elders) have to know their boundaries. They have to know how to support the pre-eminence of Christ in the lives of each believer. This includes being willing to suffer for the sake of one who is younger so that the Lord is established in their life. It's not top-down leadership like the military. It's bottom-up like in the bottom of an ancient ship. The boat is moving in the right direction because of the labor of those who lead by example. The people on the deck of the ship have the freedom to move about and live their lives. This is the kind of example Jesus set and taught for "leadership". This was/is different than "Leedership" as taught in the LC. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-12-2008 at 06:21 AM. |
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09-12-2008, 06:35 AM
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#832 | |
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Posts: 152
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2 Corinthians 6:16-7:1 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (17) Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, (18) And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (7:1) Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Even in the "age of grace" we cannot lose a proper/healthy fear of God and His holiness. The Corinthians did. I also know that most LCers need a big helping of love. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-12-2008 at 07:00 AM. |
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09-12-2008, 08:21 AM
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#833 | |
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Posts: 181
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Exactly! Because of what you know of Terry, you believe that he was not a participant in idolatry. Am I understanding you correctly? So many of us, Matt, know so many more like Terry. Roger |
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09-12-2008, 08:41 AM
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"There he goes again"
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Speaker, I thought to let this go the other day, but it keeps coming back to my consciousness. Brother, you seem to like to segregate yourself from "normal LC detractors;" as if you are not one of them. Guess what, brother? The only difference between you and I is the degree to which we detract. Believe me, just based upon what you said in the above quoted post, you are not only considered to be a detractor by the Blendeds, but an outright "opposer." Let’s see, you are under “quarantine” now, right? Actually, you took the wrong message from my so-called rising up "against Matt." In spite of all the criticism I have leveled at Witness Lee, the Blendeds, and all that is associated with them, my heart aches for the innocent saints who are duped. Many of them have no clue what is going on in the upper echelons of that sick organization. The Blendeds have done an excellent job of information control, and promoting a false image of the ministry and its churches. This whole thing that's going on with Hank handy graft right now is not about gaining "new ones;" it's about fooling those who are in the LC into believing that everything is okay with them and "Christianity." As I say this, names and faces flash before me. This is not just me opposing Matt. I know without the shadow of a doubt that these precious saints are not engaging in idolatry. Neither do they deserve to be thrown into that pen with the diehard zealots who know better. But I can also see names and faces of long time fringe followers who have as much as admitted that they know what is going on, but refuse to leave. We can very easily see how their blind devotion to a man’s ministry might be idolatry. But even there we should tread carefully. I don't object to Matt's thesis on idolatry. He has done a thorough job, and obviously he has given this a lot of thought, going all the way back to when he was an even younger man. What I object to is roping all these little ones in with the Scribes and Pharisees. Roger |
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09-12-2008, 11:57 AM
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#835 | |
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Posts: 273
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Roger, I'm glad you posted this because I have considered retracting a bit of my last post. I had the thing all written but wasn't clear whether or not to publish. Anyway, you are correct in your point about the difference in detraction being just a matter of degree. I'll tell you where the line is. I do not think Witness Lee was anything other than a minister of God. I know about his failures. They don't change my view on his being a minister of God. I think most of the negative stuff written about him is mostly just a criticism of his leadership style, one which admittedly really chafes North Americans. My most severe critique of him is that he allowed the Blendeds to move into place and he allowed the exaltation of himself to go unchecked. Huge mistake there. But so much of what he ministered still speaks richly to me. Maybe he got it from someone else, maybe I need to read more people, I don't know, but it still speaks to me. For instance, the matter of God being "processed." I know that offends the heck out of a lot of people, but it really feeds me to see God in this way. Most people I know view God in a multitude of ways -- powerful, a Santa Claus, nebulous, aloof, whatever -- but no one I have ever spoken to outside of the "recovery" has ever talked about the Architect God with the elaborate, amazing plan which would involve He Himself actually going through changes in order to accomplish the plan, even dying. God dying! Shocking. (DJohnson just blew a gasket.) But I have lived over half a century, all of it talking with other Christians and I don't believe I have had a single conversation with another believer who mentioned this aspect of God. I remember when Lee talked about the infinite God being limited to the size of a human fetus, hidden away in the womb of a woman. How marvelous. How amazing. Remember the song that offended all the non-LCers: How Small Thou Art? Well, what a great song. Who ever thinks of God that way, as minutely tiny so that He can be ingested by human beings? You are right, brother, that I am the offscouring of the LSM society. That used to hurt, but no more. My thirty plus years in the LC helped me develop callouses to help with that. As far as what I wanted to adjust in my last post, I feel I went too far in giving Matt credit concerning idols in the LC. I really find his whole argument tedious, offensive, and counterproductive. But I allowed that there possibly were idols within the LC because of the way we exalted Lee. I would now state simply that we over-exalted Lee. Let God judge whether or not it was an idol. Sorry for the rambling response. I do appreciate what you've been saying in defense of the saints within the LC. I agree with you. SC |
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09-12-2008, 12:40 PM
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#836 |
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Member
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Location: USA
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SC,
I think if you had spent more time in a region under the sway of a Benson Phillips-type LSM zealot you would probably be using terms that sound less like euphemisms than "leadership style" and "chafe." Igzy |
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09-12-2008, 01:11 PM
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#837 |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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I have a question for you, SC, and anyone else who cares to answer.
If you were the older sibling of a child who was damaged by an abusive father, would you spend most of your time in discussion with your sibling telling him or her all the good points of your father? In other words, what would be more important to you, salvaging your father's reputation, or helping your sibling find healing? |
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09-12-2008, 01:27 PM
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#838 | ||
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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I think a good place to go, at least start to go, is in these paragraphs: (1) I believe that it is POSSIBLE for a Christian to be deceived. (2) It is possible for ME to be deceived? (3) I AM deceived. (4) WHY am l deceived? ... Just as there are various degrees of deception, so there are degrees of deliverance. Deliverance from deception is based on the understanding of the believer, and his WILLINGNESS To FACE ALL THE TRUTH ABOUT HIMSELF, and all the ground given to the enemy. In doing this the believer needs to recover the ground in mind and body which he has ignorantly yielded to the foe. The deceived believer himself must ACT to get rid of passivity. He must revoke his CONSENT given to deceiving spirits to enter. By his own volition the believer must reject and revoke the gound (Ephes. 4: 27) the enemy has taken by deceit. God will not act for believers in regaining lost ground, nor will He exercise His choice for the man. Man must himself stand on the ground of the victory of Christ on the cross and claim his freedom. Assuming, then, that the believer has discovered that he is a victim of deception, what are the subjective steps in the path of freedom? Briefly, (1) acknowledgment of deception; (2) refusal of ground; (3) steadfast fight against all that deception means; (4) being on guard against excuses; (5) the detection of all the effects of deception; and (6) a discerning of the result of these actions. When I was still meeting with the LC, I took the position that it was not possible for me to be deceived, because I was in "God's best". It was beyond my wildest dream that Christians could even be deceived. Other Christians maybe, but not me. We do a lot of back and forth on these forums, and even on this thread. The thing that opened my eyes, more than all the back and forth in the world, was remembering all the doubts I had stuffed under my mattress. I'll use the example of idolatry. I didn't deny that I was an idolator. I asked the Lord to show me my idolatry. Or, put another way, rather than assume I was in God's best, I had to acknowledge a very basic premise: my true condition. THE BASIC FACT OF THE FALL The primary fact to be recognized by every human being is the complete and utter ruin of the first creation at the Fall, when the First Adam admitted the poison of the serpent, which permeated and corrupted his whole being beyond repair. This fact of the utter corruption of the human race as a consequence of this is unmistakably declared in the New Testament: "The old man, which waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit." (Eph. 4: 22 R.V.) "Being darkened in their understanding; alienated from the life of God." (Eph. 4: 18). "We all once lived in the lusts of the flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the rest." (Eph. 2: 3). Thus the Apostle described the whole race of man, Gentile and Jew, Pharisee and Publican--in all, he said, "the prince of the power of the air" wrought, as "the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience." These facts declared by the Word of God, and the reality of the blinded mind (2 Cor. 4: 4), and ruined condition of every human being, is the ONLY BASIS UPON WHICH THE TRUTHS WE ARE CONSIDERING ... CAN BE UNDERSTOOD, AND PROVED TO BE TRUE, IN EXPERIENCE AND PRACTICE. From this position, we have nowhere to go but UP. Nell PS: These paragraphs in blue are from the writings of Jesse Penn-Lewis. |
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09-12-2008, 01:38 PM
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#839 | |
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Quote:
I suppose that may be a valid issue with many, but I am not interested. Brother Lee was a good bible teacher, but not a very good leader. Continuously beating up on him for whatever errors there were in his life and ministry holds no interest for me. I've got plenty of errors in my own life. Without the blood of Christ to cleanse me, I would never dare to show my face in any christian circle. It is the "most of the time" in your question that intrigues me. What is it that I want to be discussing "most of the time"? I come here, among saints who have had experience with the local churches, looking for a way to go on. Nell has pointed out that the local church life, as it is currently practiced, has become an old wineskin. My questions have to do with finding a practical way to follow the Lord from here, and how to take the saints on now that the church life is falling down around our ears. I would hope there could be more suggestions of how one is able to pursue. I've visited the various denominations and the currently popular free groups. The singing is pretty good, but I've not been impressed with either the depth of spiritual life there, or the quality of biblical understanding. Meanwhile, I'm left with the care of a number of brothers and sisters who want to follow the Lord...
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-12-2008, 01:45 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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You can tell me all about the terrible things WL did or may have done, but how does that apply to me? I never thought he was the Vicar of Christ on Earth. That belongs to the LSM brothers. For me WL was a bible teacher, and a frankly pretty good one. But my experience in the church life revolved around Christ, and the saints who were with me. What is it that I am supposed to be deceived about...? I very much appreciate Ms. Penn-Lewis, but I am not sure how to apply this portion of her ministry to my life. Best,
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-12-2008, 01:54 PM
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#841 | |
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Posts: 129
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I would share with him/her that the same thing happened to me, that he/she is not alone. Knowing that you are not the only one it ever happened to helps ALOT in healing. EVENTUALLY, MAYBE it would be time to try to understand the whys behind the abuse -- why the father was an abuser, understand his story. Eventually, maybe. And maybe never. And to Nell -- about being deceived. After I finally was open to God in the LC aftermath, I prayed so much that God would protect me from ever being deceived again -- by anyone or anything --- and that I would never deceive myself. Boy, I was clear by then that I had been SO deceived. Eventually, those prayers were answered and now I have a relationship with Jesus and with His people. It took me a really long time to trust. Side note: on a personal level, as my husband and I prepare for our snow-birdness, we leave our younger son here. He's 26, not a baby (I do know that), but I miss him so much while we are gone. And he is so sad for us to go. So, while it is good to go -- the cold here just kills us these days --- I am having a sad day. Just thought I would stick that in here. Admin, if you need to delete it, I understand. I'm sad. not that okay today. |
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09-12-2008, 02:08 PM
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#842 | |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Back to my question to which you replied, my point was that I know there are a lot of people who aren't going on with the Lord anymore because they were damaged by Lee-inspired/LSM-enacted dogmatism. Many may be lurking on this board. Telling those people over and over that Lee was really a great guy simply trivializes their suffering and condition. It makes it seem like they deserved what they got. Besides, they probably all know Lee was a fine teacher. That's part of the problem. If he had been a total creep it would be easy to discount his opinion. It's the fact that he was on the one hand good and on the other so abusive (like Darby was) that is confusing to his "children." "Daddy was a great man. So if he said I was a bad person he must have had a reason." I'm not saying it's wrong to praise Lee. So long as you don't trivialize the damage he inflicted or inspired on others. It's not fair to them. |
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09-12-2008, 02:09 PM
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#843 | |
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Posts: 181
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The Lord be with you in a special way while you are away from your son. I have an idea of how you must feel. Roger |
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09-12-2008, 02:55 PM
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#844 | |
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09-12-2008, 03:32 PM
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#845 | |
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I know you and I have been around the block a few times on this one, so I don't really want to belabor the point. But I agree that Witness Lee was a good teacher. Some of his teachings can be argued over, but he was an excellent teacher. However, I agree with what someone said, maybe you. He was not a good leader. And therein lays the problem. Perhaps he should have just stuck to teaching and not leading. Stephen Kaung is a good example of someone who does this. We certainly shouldn't bash Lee for bashing Lee's sake. But I think we can examine where things went wrong, and perhaps know how to avoid the problems that arise in our hearts. Because, in a sense, we are no different from Witness Lee. As one brother from Texas used to say: "We are all cut out of the same hunk of cheese." And I am aware of your good credential in the arena of Christian groups. But I still say there is probably a lot more going on "out there" than you might think. Roger |
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09-12-2008, 04:07 PM
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#846 | |
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Location: USA
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09-12-2008, 04:29 PM
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#847 | |
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Posts: 273
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Okay, I'll answer your loaded question. I wouldn't allow the father to continue to abuse the sibling. I would look for a creative solution, a way to help the sibling without destroying the father. Actually, the father needs as much help as the sibling, maybe more. There. I answered your question. Now you mine. And if you've forgotten, it's: Who are you talking about when you describe people who turn a blind eye to problems by saying Lee was a great guy? If it was me, sorry, but I guess you haven't been paying attention to the nub of my general argument. SC |
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09-12-2008, 04:53 PM
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#848 |
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Posts: 273
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On second thought, forget my question. It really doesn't matter.
SC |
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09-12-2008, 05:24 PM
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#849 | |
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Posts: 129
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Thank you, Roger. That meant a lot to me. It did.
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I am not sure how to translate that into the LC/WL situation, but I see it as fitting. I'm just not sure how. But it does, oh it does. I don't think WL should go to prison, obviously. But I hold no soft spots for him at all. Not as a good teacher, not as anything. There you have it. The cat is out of the bag. Nothing good to say about him. The stuff about the history, going all the way back to the very beginning, and seeing that he always practiced spiritual abuse, always followed money and excused immorality when it was convenient for him --- wow. It would be the fictional father having kids just to abuse them. Setting it up from the very beginning. fpo - Last edited by finallyprettyokay; 09-12-2008 at 05:52 PM. Reason: typos |
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09-12-2008, 07:01 PM
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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I would like to use this point to first, show the word dancing that is going on in trying to prove a point. Again, there is a very small minority that may fit this position, but we were mostly Christians loving the Lord and loving the brothers and sisters (the church). This matter of worshipping the church I think, began materializing late in the game for some who did not want to see the glory days of yesterday fade away, so they created a doctrine and quarantined any who would not follow; interestingly enough, using the leading ones perceptions of idolatry to scare any who would not follow their twisted way. But let me get to my main point; We each have our own idols that we must deal with, when we point fingers at others idols we are stepping over a line we were never intended to cross. Let me use some general examples. Have you ever tried to help a recovering substance abuser? As the Lord delivers him from his addictions he is finding grace to overcome his demons, but for one inexperienced in this matter, who is trying to help him see his idol, it usually ends poorly because you just don't know what that person is going through. This is not to say you have to become an substance abuser before you can treat one, but the most effective teachers are the ones have been there, and know how to bring others through it. The missing element is experience and I think this is what is most lacking from your well constructed doctrine. If I can use your own experiences as an example, you could make very clear how the Lord has exposed idols in your life and I'm sure that your conclusions would not be questioned, because your very own experience supports it. But when you try to build a case of others idolatry you seem to be fighting a losing battle, for it runs up against others experience and in the end is found lacking in validity. This is not a "mind your own bussiness" post, only a suggestion that you should stick to presenting truths founded on your own personal experiences. If your conclusions do not have the support of the ones who have a direct experience, Do not discount them as Too blind to see what you see, for the truly blind one is the one lacking in experience. Is this not what came into the LC, leading ones who helped others see what the leading ones percieved as their "Idols?" Then using their authority to enforce what they saw and not what the ufortunate saint saw? I feel scripture is very clear, that we each are responsible for our own life and in dealing with the sin, flesh and idols that come with it. I cannot deal with your sins, flesh and idols, but I can help you by encouraging you to pray for our Lord to expose the dark, hidden things in your life, that by His light and in the power of His grace the dark things can be confessed and washed away in His cleansing blood. Shawn Last edited by Shawn; 09-13-2008 at 04:16 AM. |
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09-13-2008, 05:25 AM
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#851 | |
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__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-13-2008, 06:36 AM
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#852 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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As I left the LC's, the pattern of bullying was glaringly evident on every level. This so-called "leadership style" was taught and learned on every level. Sure ... some were affected more than others, but the disease was systemic. Most of the sad stories on these forums have to do with abusive patterns of "leadership" learned either directly or indirectly from WL himself. These patterns have also been seen in the GLA far too often. I have seen too many precious saints leave, and who is left to "go on" with? I am not here to bash anyone, especially the dead. But the living sometimes need to understand "what happened." For years I asked myself inwardly, "how could something so good become so bad." I watched "love for the saints" transmute into "zeal for a program." I watched the word of life become systematized doctrines. After the "new way" fizzled out, even the so-called "great teacher" began to entangle all of us in complicated, extra-biblical, esoteric, lifeless theology -- much of it designed to bring all the LC's under his controls. And if that, in the end, was his real goal, then in fact he really was a "great leader."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-13-2008, 06:56 AM
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#853 | |
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Me too. And younger sibling. I have often wondered how many of us ended up in the LC, looking for a family. My husband was looking for a family after his (1st marriage) ended and his kids were 2,000 miles away. I thought I had found a family that would be safe. It makes the resulting disapointment all the more terrible. But now I do have a family, and a lot of elements in it. My family (of course), friends that love me and time has proven that love, and a really really nice church that has lots of love and from all ages of people, with no one trying to control anyone or even get into each other 'bizness' -- pretty cool. fpo |
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09-13-2008, 07:41 AM
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09-13-2008, 07:52 AM
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Couldn't the children of Israel have asked the same? Look, we need to find a new way to look at our experiences in the church life. This good/bad dichotomy doesn't work. Actually, it's just another form of eating from the tree of knowledge, a binary way of looking at the world. Instead I recommend looking at it from the "life" point of view. We had experiences, tons of them, some good, some bad, but all real, deep, textured human experiences which have enriched our souls no matter what we may think. Igzy brought up the abuse scenario. It kind of applies. And so what do you do if you feel you suffered spiritual abuse in the church life? I say you allow that experience to enrich you ... in understanding how to forgive and forget, in developing empathy, in realizing that this whole human life isn't just a big Hallmark film, in developing callouses (good ones), in finding out how to deal with people you don't like, that is, really learning what love is. The bad experiences are like a June drought which can send the roots of the corn stalk deeper to protect it from the real droughts of July and August. I know too much pain can kill you. And I'm definitely not opposed to ibuprofen. I don't justify the pain-givers. They need to be dealt with by the Lord. But if all we can do is step out of the game and lick our wounds, we will have missed truly golden experiences. Titus Chu once said in answer to a question from a sister (I can't recall the question, just the answer) that we need to learn to look at things from a different angle. This is wonderful spiritual advice. That's my advice to LCers, present and former, who are looking back on the last thirty years of their lives wondering what just happened. Find a way to look at it from above it, not laterally. Transcend it. Spin it into gold. The twelve spies who went ahead on the scout mission were blessed with forty years of real experience of the Lord. Still, ten of them could only see giants, could only see themselves as grasshoppers. Two looked at the situation entirely differently. I suspect they had a gleam of irony in their eyes as they said, "They are food for us." So too is our last number of years in the church life. It is food for us. Food for thought and food for action. SC |
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09-13-2008, 08:01 AM
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#856 | |
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09-13-2008, 08:07 AM
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#857 |
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Let me add that I think the extreme of developing hatred for the dead abusive father is just as bad as blaming oneself for the father's abuse. We have an instinct to love our fathers and anyone who hates his father probably to some degree will end up hating himself, too. So the "trash Lee to gain freedom" instinct is a wrong reaction as well. We've seen that on display on these forums, too.
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09-13-2008, 09:37 AM
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#858 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Real healing does not involve cover ups or attacks. Real healing does include discussions of wrongs, with sympathy and compassion and trust, but also leads to understanding and forgiveness, but not "forgetting." Discussions help to sort thru the mess, especially when things have been bottled up for years. Abused ones tend to feel isolated, without any support, which never helps. I don't think anyone is in denial here, rather at times, I do find my posts limiting just how much we "heap on the hate." I find extreme views to be very unproductive. The alternative is, for sure, more difficult. We are left with the task of properly discerning the "good from the worthless." This I have found to be far more profitable. Let me give an example of a comment which helped me personally. It was very balanced and therefore profitable. The brother commented about TC, "I appreciate all the work he has done for the Lord, but the way he treats people, I will never agree with that."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-13-2008, 09:51 AM
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#859 |
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Speaker,
I think I remember you mentioning something on the other forum about you believing that the day would come when Witness Lee would take his proper (proper in your view) place in Church History. I think at the time I stated something to the effect that my view is that that proper place would be a speck, hardly noticeable to the human eye. At any rate, you have made similar statements over the years. Maybe that is what has led some to believe that you are overly concerned with preserving Witness Lee's reputation. Personally, I believe that not only Witness Lee, but all those who have gone before us should certainly be honored for whatever positive contribution they have made, while at the same time we should not spare any of them the critical eye. This is how we learn for the future. I will give you an example. In my whole time in the Local Church the image of John Nelson Darby presented to me was nothing less than heroic. Of course, it had to be that way, because he was named in a long line of "Apostles for the age," Witness Lee himself being the most recent. Any criticism of Darby would have certainly opened the door for examination of Lee himself. Can't have any of that, you know. I was delighted, yes delighted, to find out what a crumb JND could be. Actually, I shouldn't say delighted, but rather relieved. I no longer have to hold to the Apostle for the Age, succession thing. I can consider any of these brothers against any of their peers. One of JND's peers who was never introduced to us in the Local Church was Robert Chapman. If you put his life against that of Darby, considering the matter of humility and brotherly love, it's clear that Darby should have been sitting at his feet. Please forgive me for saying so, but sometimes it does indeed seem that you are a little overly concerned about preserving the reputation of Lee. But we must remember that that reputation is an illusion created by him, and expanded by the hero worshiping Blended Brothers. Shine the light on Luther, Darby, Chpman, Nee, Kaung, Lee and anybody else, and let the chips fall where they may. One other thing: I don't know about you, but I didn't suffer the degree of abuse that has been described by some on this forum. I wouldn't dare tell them that we just need to move on and learn how to be stronger for having had the experience. While that may be true on some level, it displays a sort of insensitivity to their plight. I can tell you personally of a dear couple I know who couldn't have been more gung-ho and absolute for the "Recovery," and in a very real way I can say, without mentioning the brother's name, that he was a crucial part of the backbone of the whole "Recovery," on the whole Earth. Now they are gone, because of abuse, and even are having doubt as to Jesus being the Messiah. How do you tell them that they just need to dig deeper and learn to be stronger because of that experience? My wife and I sat and prayed with this couple over the years. Our first-born are almost the same age. I worked with him for a time, and there is no doubt in my mind that he knows the Lord, and had a burning spirit that I haven’t seen among any of the LSM pretenders. No one can say that they are where they are because they never really knew the Lord. I haven't the least doubt that they are where they are because of their direct involvement with a brother who worshiped the ground that Witness Lee walked on. One more, "other thing." Brother Speaker, I have to balance all that by saying that I have appreciated your thick skin over the time that we have been together on these two forums. Many times it is your thick skin that has left me without words. Now dats saying supum. Thick skin comes with age and experience. And I guess being the object of examination by classrooms full of teenagers over the years hasn't hurt either. Roger |
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09-13-2008, 10:09 AM
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#860 | |
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For example, you wouldn't have to worry about hurting the father's feelings or status by saying certain things you might not say otherwise. Some people, it seems to me, talk about Witness Lee as if he were still alive and they still have to kiss up to him. He's gone to his reward and now it's time to deal, frankly and honestly, with the mess he left behind. I just don't understand Witness Lee's rep being someone's top priority. History is going to decide about him anyway. All the propaganda of the Exclusive Brethren doesn't change the way history has judged Darby, and all the propaganda of LSM or anyone on this board isn't going change the way Lee will be judged. Lee's gone. We can't help him. What's left is the people alive with us today who we might be able to help by ministering to them on this board with a little more discernment than just trying to defend or dismiss Lee in order to win an argument. |
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09-13-2008, 10:33 AM
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#861 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Quote:
It's kind of like going thru a painful divorce, everything looks so bleak ... that is until another special girl (or guy) comes along to help us forget the past. Is that too binary? Btw, nice to hear you and your wife singing together, but it made me a little moody ...
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-13-2008, 10:48 AM
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#862 |
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Posts: 273
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Roger,
Thanks for mentioning my "thick skin." I'm actually an overly-sensitive guy to the max. I like to say it's because I have a "keen spirit." But, trust me, even after 33 years of dealing with high schoolers, they still could crush the butterfly in me at times. On the forum I have the benefit of time. I can't tell you how many fiery rejoinders I haven't sent. Once in a while I post hastily and, if it's in the heat of the moment, almost always regret that I did. Concerning my over-protective stance on Lee, I think a lot of it is to balance out the other side that voices concerns here. I have no interest in exalting him as I once did. But when I read how terrible he was, that his theology was heretical, etc., I feel the need to provide a counterpoint to the discussion. I do not want to diminish the hurt of anyone who has gone this way. Those scars are real, real, real. I've got a few myself, some that are still tender. But like every kid in a bragging contest about his injuries, I treasure those scars. Scars are miniature storybooks. A person with none has no stories to tell (well, at least not injury stories). This goes to the heart of my entire present view of life: it is a grand story, one which we each play an individual part. I teach literature and have read a lot about plot development over the years. I've boiled it down to this: Hero faces obstacle, tries to hurdle it instinctively, apparently succeeds but then discovers he not only failed but the obstacle got bigger, tries again with more thought but still without revelation, again thinks he succeeds but quickly discovers the cycle has repeated, cycle continues until the obstacle gets so huge there is no way to overcome it except by looking at it from a different perspective. In other words, by getting some revelation. The revelation may save his life or it may come too late, but it does save his soul. Well, that's our lives. I believe the local church experience for many is a complete tale. And for a lot of us, we've been trying to hurdle the obstacles in too natural a way, unwilling to get real revelation. I'm not sure what that revelation is -- for everyone it's likely different -- but I think continuing to try instinctive solutions doesn't work. That's why I promote trying to see this LC thing from a different perspective, that actually it all has value. Anyway, my apologies to any who think I tread lightly over their hurts. I know the hurts are real and I know it's hard to deal with them. As Red Green famously (actually, not so famously) said, "We're all in this together. We're rooting for you." SC |
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09-13-2008, 11:00 AM
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#863 | |
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Posts: 273
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Ohio, Nah, it's not too binary. Pray to meet that special guy or girl that helps one to forget the past. But don't look for that special guy or girl (in this LC analogy) in a predetermined way. Be open to the Lord to surprise you. Hey, who said that was my wife and me on the song? It's just "some guy and his wife," okay! Sorry it made you moody, but that's a good response I'd say. It was a lamentation. SC |
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09-13-2008, 12:05 PM
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#864 | |
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09-13-2008, 01:27 PM
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#865 | ||
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On the other forum, dear brother Steve I. posted a letter from someone who had suffered greatly at the hands of the leading ones in the LC and who has passed through to the other side to find real inner peace and to find mercy and grace to forgive WL and the brother around him. This excerpt touches me very much and has been known to bring a tear to my eye: Quote:
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"The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality |
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09-13-2008, 08:28 PM
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Admin/Moderator
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I don't know whether or not you are deceived. I was answering your question "Where do we go from here?" My suggestion was to go to the Lord and inquire of Him as to what He would say about our spiritual condition. To me, its not about Witness Lee. It's about me. A point JPL made was that we can be deceived and not know it (the definition of deceit I suppose) and our need is enlightenment. As long as Witness Lee's ministry is a sticking point; as long as folks have to make a decision about Witness Lee's ministry, pro or con, how much or how little, etc., I think there is a problem. As long as the Lord's people need a forum like this one, there is a problem. As long as Christians believe they "need" to read something from WL's ministry on a daily basis, in place of the Bible, there is a problem, and I believe deception is at work. Whatever is of eternal value in WL's ministry is in the Bible. WL's ministry is full of leaven. He was a pretty good Bible teacher as long as he stuck to the Bible. When he began to think more highly of himself than he ought, he opened the door to deceit in his own life through pride. (My opinion through observation.) I haven't read Lee for 20 years, at least not without taking a dose of Pepto first. Why read Lee when you can read the Bible? Why not cut out the middle man? I just think it's a good idea to check to see if there is deception in your/my life. I go through a check on a regular basis, and I think it's a healthy thing to put everything on the table and let the Lord show me if and where I may have a wrong thought about Him. Eve was beguiled or deceived in the garden...paradise no less! There were 2 humans on a magnificent planet...and they were soon deceived. I think we should all assume we are deceived until proven otherwise. Nell Last edited by Nell; 09-14-2008 at 06:15 AM. |
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09-14-2008, 06:13 AM
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#867 |
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Member
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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A Sad Irony
I have felt the direction SC offered in the last several posts has been what I have tried to sugest in the past on the other forum,but have always been perplexed at the responses, that have cast me in the role of the abuser; a place I never intended to be in.
What I have found is the very same counsel that can benefit a brother or sister to have a deeper walk with the Lord, is the same consel offered by the leading ones to denegrade those under them to not rock the boat of the "program." The difference is in what outcome is desired by the offerer; to help the seeking one to grow through the trial, or to keep the false agenda of the program from being exposed by the honest quest for the truth. It seems that the Lord saw this when he warned those who would stumble the children concerning their believing, that it would be better for a millstone to be hung around their neck and be drowned. For it seems to me, to use a teaching that was intended to help ones to know our Lord in a deeper way now causes them to be stumbled, it spoils the help they could have received in gaining something eternal and instead can result in damage that cannot be recovered from. |
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09-14-2008, 10:27 AM
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#868 | |
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Suffering is always a chance for growth. But talking that way can easily have ring of "get over it." |
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09-15-2008, 05:26 AM
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#869 | ||
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Question: If you have a friend who is a drug abuser, do you tell them you think they are abusing drugs? Or do you say nothing? <-- This is where your argument breaks down. Note: I recognize that some have acknowledged their "drug abuse". Others have not. I am especially concerned about those in leadership who have not been able to acknowledge their "drug abuse". If these ones regain prominence and/or influence while still holding on to portions of their "old habit", then they make others sick. The ones who have not acknowledged their drug abuse have basically said, I haven't and don't take drugs. In some cases, this may be true. This is where concrete evidence comes in. You have to have evidence of the abuse. I did not introduce the "drug abuser" example, you did. I used it, but no one should come back at me in response. I am primarily pointing out the flaws in your thinking using your own analogy. On the subject of this thread there has been discussion about "Christ plus something." One of the key responses has been to justify that "Christ plus something" is okay. 2Co 11:1-4 Would that ye could bear with me in a little foolishness: but indeed ye do bear with me. (2) For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ. (3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ. (4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept This more heavily applies to the leadership (current and ex), but it also applies to the commoner in the LC. I can tell you from my own experience that even though my parents didn't teach me to "disdain" other christians outside the LC it was still integrated into me through the strong influence of the LC environment. I knew I was better than other Christians. It was built into me implicitly by the fact that I had grown up in the LC. "We" had all the knowledge of Lee (<-- This is one of the drugs) and therefore could sit atop the mountain and look down on "poor, poor Christianity". I didn't have to choose to be in the group. I just grew up there and I got infected with this "bad habit". It has been proven that Lee was operating in a false manner, so we know his teachings are leavened. To the ex-Leaders/Midwest Leaders: What was the leaven of Lee? Are you clear about it? Is it as Hope says, primarily "Delegate Authority"? What about the underpinnings of "Delegate Authority", which was Nee's "Spiritual Authority". Is it correct? What is the leaven in his teachings? To anyone who is an ex-leader or a current leader in the Midwest. Tell me what was wrong with Lee's teachings? Do you know? Do you see it clearly? Hope posits that it was A) Delegate Authority. Quote:
This has been established before from the Word of God and can be established again for your benefit. We cannot "fix" someone else. This is where a lot of leadership oversteps. We are to be faithful to point out sin, but it is so that our brothers/sisters can go to the Lord. It has not been my attempt to "fix" others, but it has been my attempt to point at sin. Matt Last edited by Matt Anderson; 09-15-2008 at 06:16 AM. |
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09-15-2008, 06:12 AM
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#870 |
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Hi Matt,
The Drug abuser was only an example; my point was the lack of experience that is leading you to conclusions that are lacking substantiation, as evidenced by the abundance of counterpoints to your arguements from LC'ers. Your response has been to address the example and not the 800 pound gorilla, of lack of experience that are weakening your argument. I never said one does not treat the drug abuser, only that drawing from the experiences of one who has been there is the most effective way. Igzy, You are right in not slamming one who is in a trial to "help" by offering the hurting one a "suck it up and get on with it" suggestion. This is where the compassions of the Lord are needed in our hearts as we try to support a heart that is going through a painful experience; to know when it is time to quietly support and when it is time to offer a word that can help them to go on with their life. Again the qualifying factor is when it is best for the individual as opposed to when it is convenient for the group. |
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09-15-2008, 11:11 AM
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#871 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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In what I have bolded above, it seems you are adding to the “Matt does not have enough experience to speak as he has done on this thread” theme. I feel I should speak to Matt’s "experience" since that argument seems to keep coming up. I think it is better for me to do this than for Matt to have to continue to stand up alone to the 800 pounds worth of "counterpoint" punches that he has received on this thread. I'd like to respectfully point out that Matt does not have a lack of experience when it comes to the topic of spiritual abuse in the Local Churches, which is reason for this thread. In brief he is qualified to speak because he is a 2nd generation LCer (this thread is about those from the 2nd generation) who is now an adult survivor of spiritual abuse carried out by an idolatrous, abusive LC leadership. And he didn't just survive, I might even venture to say, he overcame in this matter. Today He is a fervent lover of Jesus and of every member of the body of Christ including those still in the LSM/LC. He has a heart that is open and willing to fellowship with any and all, at any time. He also loves the Word of God word for word. He is in a position to see the LC in terms of idolatry, having been sacrificed on one of the altars of Lee. He cares enough about those who did this to him and to many of his friends, to share with them what he learned in the process of recovering. He reads the Bible outside the Lee garlic room now. You would be astounded to hear the things God has shown him in the Old Testament, and not just about idolatry. He has shared very little on this forum of what he has learned there--in the Scriptures (O.T.), which, by the way Paul told Timothy were able to make him wise unto salvation. I note that the punches have mainly been made against his person and experience, not against his biblical arguments or the historical facts he has presented about Lee’s history. One of the striking things missing against Matt's biblical presentations has been solid biblical refutation. I admit that there has been some, but it is worthy of note that this was done mainly by Peter Debelak, who is also a 2nd generation LCer. Matt may not have experience as an LC leader who is saturated with the teachings of Lee and is qualified to abuse, but he most definitely has experience of being on the receiving end of such. If you and others are trying to say he didn't know Lee's teachings well enough to speak to them, them you have no basis to say that, not knowing the facts. Matt has a high capacity for absorbing information. He has been like that since early childhood. He grew up in an environment where Lee’s teachings were the main diet. He heard them day after day in his own home, which he shared with the small army of sisters who lived with us over the years. When we left, I encouraged him to read life studies and I even read them to/with him, hoping they would help him. After we were out, we spent a number of years working through family problems that forced us to face our past and dig down to the level of our wrong beliefs and find what lay at the root of them. We had to rethink Lee's teachings and discover what the Bible actually teaches about what he said. We (including Matt) had many, many discussions about Lee’s teachings among ourselves and with other ex Local Churchers, using the Bible as our guide through them. The Lord brought brothers like Bill Mallon and John Ingalls for extended visits to our home a number of times and Matt had fellowship with them one on one, especially with Bill. I’d like to ask just what experience do all the counterpointers have to be able to speak about this topic? Maybe the 800 lb. gorilla is their inexperience with regard to understanding 2nd generation abuse. How many of them have had the experience of being sacrificed on Lee's altar? (I don’t have the time here to share about how this happened to Matt, but maybe I will later.) How many of them have taken the time to follow up with 2nd generation LCers or to help them recover? How much time have they spent studying the Scriptures on their own, without the Lee veil? So, again, maybe the 800 lb. gorilla is their inexperience, not Matt’s. Matt mercifully did not end up in one of the categories introduced in the opening post of this thread, as many of his friends did. As I said, I suspect he may have more right to speak here than many of those who have been doing so. He has helped other 2nd generation LCers recover. Have any of the naysayers here done that? Honestly, Shawn, when I saw some of the posts accusing Matt that he was acting like WL as the oracle, I felt deeply ashamed that any one would speak this way to a young man who survived their 1st generation-created system and yet loves them enough to be here dialoguing with them. I can assure you he has a real life outside of this forum with enough involvements with family, job, and other Christians to fill his hands. I would not be surprised to see him leave here. In fact, I think I would recommend it. I am considering doing the same and allowing all of you to have your chats with one another and remember the glory days of old until Jesus comes, without having to think about possible explanations for our past that are uncomfortable. I haven’t asked the Lord about that yet, so I don’t know if He will let me leave, but I am going to be asking. I have wept over what happened among us. I have seen others do the same. Shouldn’t we be weeping at the broken down walls of God’s house (family) and the heaps of rubble (His wounded children) left behind? Shouldn’t we be weeping in response to realizing how much abuse and destruction took place among us? Shouldn’t we all humble ourselves and ask the Lord to have mercy on us. Shouldn’t we all repent for what happened among us because we all played a part in creating an environment that opened the door for abuse. If God is weeping, shouldn’t we join him? Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-15-2008 at 12:25 PM. |
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09-15-2008, 11:42 AM
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#872 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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I wrote this a few weeks ago in response to a post by Terry, but decided not to post it then. Today, I think I should. It is l-o-n-g, which some complain about, so I please forgive. There is no short way to tell the story included in this. I also think my writing style is in my DNA, so it's hard to change. If long is bad to you, then I suggest you just don’t read this!!!
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First, let me say that I appreciate your gentle heart. To have genuine empathy for others and to express how we feel in words of comfort is the normal response when we learn about people who have been hurt by people in places of power. It shows we have a compassionate heart like His. Because I have been so thoroughly helped by God and so healed by His love, I honestly don’t think I need others to feel sympathy for me and am not seeking sympathy whenever I mention what happened to me. However, God has taught me that it is very good for us as members of His family to strongly express our feelings of love and care for one another and also to accept such expressions of love. In January 2006, about 3 months after our book was published, I had a very, very unusual experience with the Lord which I will never forget. It gave me a very personal and real look at His heart of love for us. One day, I was at home sitting at my computer writing with no travel plans in mind and three or four days later I was in Anaheim on a whirlwind visit of 4 days. I felt like I had been picked up by the Spirit and transported there. I won’t share how this came about, but it had the handiwork of God stamped all over it, as did the whole trip. My son, Matt, was with me. From the time our feet touched the ground until the time we departed, we were carried by the Spirit from one heaven-made appointment to the next. The Lord set the agenda as the days unfolded, and we hardly had time to eat, sleep, or change clothes. What I want to share is about the experience I had with 4 different brothers on that trip and what God showed me as a result. The first brother is one that I met 35 years ago and had not seen since that time. While Matt and I were with him and with two others having breakfast in a restaurant, the Lord appeared. I won’t share particulars of what happened there in our fellowship, but the Spirit was so awesomely present for a period of time that even the waitress and people near by were stopped and listening. Afterwards, Matt and I attended a very dry, dull, and dead Christian meeting with the first brother. After that meeting he stopped me and said, “Jane, before you get away, I have to say something ....” Tears welled up in his eyes and he said, “What happened at that restaurant was .... INCREDIBLE!” I said, “Yes, it was!” We both knew the Lord had been there. (And we also both knew that the meeting we had just suffered through had the Lord no where in sight.) He continued to shake his head and show great emotion. He said a little more, the essence of which was that the experience in the restaurant had been a reminder of what it was like to have the Lord present in fellowship. It had moved him to tears. He wanted me to try and tell another brother (an elder among them) what had happened at the restaurant, and he called this elder over to where we sat. I tried to say something to him, but quickly realized this brother had no interest. He was clearly pre-occupied with his own things and service to God and hurried away. The 35-year-ago brother wanted him to know that he had just been with Jesus in a way reminiscent of the past, but there simply were no ears to hear. Now to the second brother. After lunch that day, another brother came and introduced himself to me. He was an ex-LC elder that I had seen, but never met before. He had disappeared off the radar many years before and I never knew what happened to him. He said a few things to me, left, returned, said a few more things, left, returned, and said more things. Each time he returned, he was becoming more emotional until the third time we were both standing there crying. (Remember we had never met before!) He told me that someone had given him and his wife a copy of my book and he had been trying to read it, but it was very hard for him. By the third return, he had managed to tell me that he had been hurt by very strong women in his life. He thought that the fact that I had written a book meant I was probably just another strong woman. This was the reason he was having a hard time trying to read it. He told me how much it had helped him to meet me in person and that our meeting had taken that thought completely away. As he shared more he began to cry, and I did also. The Lord’s presence was very strong as we stood there talking and crying. I still have that picture in my mind as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. I had never experienced anything like that before. Here’s the picture: a man, a Christian brother, who had been deeply wounded by women during his lifetime (both relatives and Christian women), standing before me, a Christian sister, who had been deeply wounded by men in my life (both relatives and Christian men). We were both crying and the Spirit was palpably there crying with us. I felt like we were being given a foretaste of the powerful work of the Spirit to heal every wound and to wash away every hurt and even to remove the memories of all the harm people had inflicted on one another. It was like a miniature of the whole body of Christ with men and women being washed and made whole and restored to one another by the Spirit. I just don’t have the words for it was like, but I knew the Lord was showing me something of His work to come. Now to the third brother. After this we went to the home of a brother and sister who had invited us to come and visit with them. I had never met either of them before, but had heard the brother’s name before. They had received a copy of my book and had read it. That is why we were invited. We had some small talk, mostly us asking them questions about themselves. Then, the brother turned the conversation to us. He said he had something he wanted to say. He opened his mouth to speak and couldn’t. He looked at me and much to my surprise, he burst into tears. His whole body shook as he wept. I was stunned, as was Matt. He wept a minute or so then he finally spoke. “Sister, what they did to you! I want to tell you how very sorry I am!” He proceeded to vocalize his sorrow for my experience and continued to weep. He was not just crying, he was sobbing and weeping and shaking. I didn’t know what to say or how to respond. I tried to comfort him, saying, “Brother, it’s okay. I am okay. I am thankful for everything.” He said, “No, I need to say it. It was terrible. I am so very, very sorry!” He shed more tears. Afterwards, as I reflected on what had happened, the Lord showed me that He was using this very caring and tenderhearted brother to show me His own heart. This was how God feels about those who are abused. I will never, ever, ever, forget that experience. And lastly, the fourth brother. The next day, Matt and I were invited to the home of this brother, whom we had never met before. He had contacted me via email after reading my book. As we sat in his living room and talked a little, all of sudden he stopped talking and began to weep and sob just as the third brother had done. He said (paraphrased to the best of my memory), “What the brothers have done to so many. What they did to me. They just don’t know. The Lord’s heart is so grieved and breaking.” Matt and I began to cry with him. We all sat on the couch together and cried. We prayed together for our Father to forgive those who had hurt others and heal us all. I’m sharing all this to show what I saw through these experiences about the heart of God towards all of us. Like the first brother, God is grieving for what we have lost that is rightfully ours: His prevailing and powerful presence. Like the picture God gave me in my experience with the second brother, God wants to and will wash and heal and restore us one to another, both male and female, as we communicate and confess our faults one to another. Like the third brother, He is in agony of heart for the wounded and abused. He loves them so deeply and has hurt with them. Even though they couldn’t see it at the time, He was afflicted with them. Like the last brother, He is full of sorrow over those who have done such damage to their own brothers. The impression made on me during this trip by these godly brothers who let me see the Lord in the deep feelings of their heart, has remained. I felt I had been given a look into the very heart of love of our longsuffering God. Right now its hard to type because the memory is also making me cry again. Terry, your post reminded me that God is weeping over us. He let us see His tears for His people through Jeremiah. At the same time, God also spoke hard words through Jeremiah, because whom He loves He rebukes and chastens. His correction is His love and mercy. His words of warning in the Bible that expose our idolatrous hearts should bring us to our knees with tears of repentance. ....continued in another post ... Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-15-2008 at 02:52 PM. |
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09-15-2008, 12:20 PM
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#873 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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Quote:
I can't speak for the other "naysayers" here, but I have helped 1st and 2nd generation LCers recover, and continue to do so by phone, email, and in person. I pray with ex-local church members on a weekly basis for those dear members. But I would never assume that my experience is anything other than a part of the whole, and I know that there are others who are doing far, far more than I am doing. I was the one who compared Matt to Witness Lee. I certainly didn’t mean it in every respect. It had to do with his insistence upon saying that all who are in the Local Church are engaging in idolatry. He has been quoted on this when he asked for proof. It had to do with what seemed to be an unwillingness to be balanced by the rest of the members here. Sorry, but I don’t hesitate to mention Matt’s youth. With youth there must be a certain amount of inexperience. It’s only common sense. Watchman Nee, for example, I think, was far too young to be taken too seriously when he wrote the Spiritual Man at only 26. He was a brilliant man, but the work was mostly cerebral. Jane we were all there. When one man came forth and insisted that what he was saying was the only correct viewpoint, we were all called "naysayers." Roger |
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09-15-2008, 01:06 PM
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#874 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 40
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Dear Jane,
I am so sorry to hear of your past experience in the LC. There seems to be a lot of hurt people here. And when people are hurt, they have many wounds which when touched, can cause them pain and reactions towards those who touch them. I have not read all this post as I am quite busy. I am thankful also that I have not had such a bad time in the LC as many here in this forum. [We in NZ are a bit removed and I think a bit preserved because of this.] But I do think that members on the forum should speak softly to each other and bind each others wounds. Think of this place as being like a hospital clinic with Jesus as the Great Physician.
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09-15-2008, 02:54 PM
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#875 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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an epilogue
... continuation of post #872 (moved here because the other was too long)
It’s been an hour or so since I wrote the above and I need to add a little epilogue to this last post (and make it even longer, sorry) because of something that just happened. When I started to write the above, I had it in my head that there had been 5 brothers that cried. Every time I have remembered that event, I have thought that there were 5 brothers. Writing this, I went through the events in my mind and every time I could only come up with 4. I went back and found the account in my journal and sure enough, there were only 4, so I set aside my thought that there were 5 brothers who had shed tears and just wrote about the 4. Why am I sharing this now? Because very shortly after I finished writing the above, I received a phone call from an old brother who was around during the earliest days in California. He has no internet connection and spends much of his time praying. He has been out of the LC for many years. I think this was the 3rd time I have talked to him on the phone over the last few months. I had never met or talked to him before this, but he had written me a letter after he read my book. When he called, I had just finished reading the post by Hope about Benson jumping to conclusions and acting on them, and I was feeling very sad about the brothers allowing Benson to operate with wrong information without telling him. Surprisingly, this brother was calling to ask me to stand with him in prayer for Benson who was particularly on his heart at the time. His prayer was very heartfelt and moving. As he prayed, he began to cry, and I started crying, too. He stopped and asked me to pardon him that he just had such intense feeling about this. We both cried as we finished praying. This brother told me that in the not too distant past (months I believe) he had a vision in which God was weeping through him over Witness Lee. In it, he said there was another man who was wielding a cane which he understood to be Witness Lee’s authority. He didn’t know who that man was at the time, but later God showed him it was Benson Phillips. Since that time he had been praying for Benson. He said that the Lord had shown him that these brothers had been caught up in idolatry and had committed spiritual fornication. Yet, God still loved them intensely. The brothers, however, that God had put around them, had not loved them. As he shared, I sat there thinking over and over, “How could this be happening?” On the day I decided to write about the 5 “weeping” brothers, and come up short one brother, the Lord sends the 5th weeping brother?! And that after I had just read a post about Benson that made me feel like crying. Through the last minute and uncannily timed appearance of the 5th tearful brother God reminded me that He is not sleeping. He is very much present and very much involved in all we are doing, even posting on this forum. So God used the 5th brother’s tearful prayers for Benson, whom I had just read about on the internet before the brother called, to show me that He has watchman on the walls who are not holding their peace day nor night and who are interceding for all His children, and especially for those who are the most egregious of sinners. Thank you, again, Terry for your post that took me on this little journey. I was exceedingly comforted and encouraged by all of this, so I’m sharing my encouragement with you and with anyone else who made it through another of my long posts J. Thankful Jane |
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09-15-2008, 03:11 PM
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#876 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Durham, North Carolina
Posts: 313
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Source of Problems in lc
Hello Matt,
By the way the term was not delegate authority but deputy authority. This was not the exclusive problem. Add to it the concept of "the Work," as a parallel entity to the church and a wrong concept of "oneness." These teachings opened the door to many errant practices. Hope, Don Rutledge |
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09-15-2008, 03:34 PM
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#877 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Everyone has been screaming about a broad brush. Have you read your O.T. recently? The biggest broad brush user is God when it came to idolatry. He wanted all his people to face the question because they stumbled again and again in their blindness. The LC system was idolatrous to the core having become like Mystery Babylon the Great. God addressed that system in Rev. with with a broad brush, "Come out of her my people." Tell me how the LC system was not like Mystery Babylon? Was Mystery Babylon idolatrous? No one comes out of the LC unscathed by the idolatrous practices. Are their some who innocently participated? Of course. No one wakes up one day and says, I think I will practice idolatry today. They stumble in the dark. Does ignorance remove guilt? No. Only one thing can break the back of the devil and the hold he gained over us and that is repentance. What will help people who were damaged and are so deadened they don't even care any more? Thorough repentance by those who built, supported, perpetuated, loved, defended the LC and who still care. Quote:
BTW, he is 35 not 26. He hasn't written a book on authority and a movement hasn't sprung up around him with his book governing the leadership of it. He isn't WN and he isn't WL. Saying so in anyway is just plain mean. Also, I didn't hear any naysayers when I was there. I heard nothing. Weren't you a part of that deafening silence? Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-15-2008 at 04:06 PM. |
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09-15-2008, 04:26 PM
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#878 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Yesterday I heard a brother with his wife as witness to the truth of what he said, tell about the trip to Taiwan in 1968 by 142 (I think) brothers and sisters from the U.S. He confessed that about half way through that trip he realized they were all being used by W. Lee to demonstrate to the folks in Taiwan that the Lord was blessing him in the U.S. He wasn't sure what to think of that, but has a clear memory of realizing it. He also remembers seeing some "opposers" picketing outside the meeting halls with signs and shouting some things.
Also, he told about an experience on that trip that where silence speaks volumes. He said they were in some kind of public transportation station. WL told Bill Mallon how to line every one up. Bill did so, but had misunderstood and did it wrong. When WL saw what Bill had done, he went ballistic and yelled at Bill for a few minutes for not doing exactly what he had told him, humiliating hiim in front of everyone. Guess what everyone said when that happened? Nothing. Anyone posting on this forum remember that? That was clearly a time to speak. How many more things happened that were answered with silence? Are the silent guilty? Or, were they just innocently loving the Lord? When decades later good, innocent people silently bowed to the decrees of W. Lee concerning John I, Bill M, etc. decrees which were clearly against the body of Christ and the teachings of the Bible about how to treat brothers, were the silent ones just innocently there loving the Lord when they agreed to break fellowship with those brothers? Were they bowing to the demands of God or of Lee? If not God, then wasn't that idolatry? Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-15-2008 at 04:57 PM. |
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09-16-2008, 03:42 AM
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#879 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Another's view of Lee in Taiwan
Here is an excerpt from an article I received this past weekend written about Poul Madsen. I can make the whole article available if any are interested:
Poul Madsen versus Witness Lee In early 1957, Madsen travelled to Taiwan and India with his wife and Austin-Sparks. He characterized this visit as a disappointment.36 In Taiwan he met, among others, Witness Lee. Lee held gigantic meetings where some 5000 believers would gather for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper. During the six weeks they spent in Taiwan, the Madsens grew increasingly surprised and perplexed. During one specific gathering, Lee suddenly turned towards Madsen, enquiring: “What is the local church?” Madsen responded that the local church is the total sum of all genuine Christians within a certain geographical area. Lee then “corrected” him in public by reeling off 10 criteria which had to be fulfilled in order for a local church to be rightly constituted. One of these criteria, Lee asserted, was rightly appointed elders. Madsen immediately countered: “I totally disagree!” Madsen felt more and more that Lee, instead of leading a Christian church, had established an organization ruled with a rod of iron and characterized by exclusiveness. If we ignore the typical culture shock which most first-time visitors to the so-called Third World encounter,37 the tone in the letters he sent back to Denmark was chiefly positive - “Everywhere, however, we have been received with a heartfelt sincerity which has truly touched us.”38 Even Madsen’s observation of the “spiritual training” within the church with the newly converted ones seems to be positively taken - “personal desires, inclinations and peculiarities had to be put aside in favor of the much larger goal of serving the whole, i.e., serving Christ in His Body.”39 It was much later when Madsen’s anxiety came to the surface: As previously mentioned, many of the assemblies in Taiwan have gone through schism. They have been through painful struggles. Much is still going one which causes grief and sadness. This is evident, in particular, with the large work connected with Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Everywhere in the Far East, these assemblies struggle with serious internal difficulties.40Later Madsen observed that Witness Lee had moved from Taiwan and relocated to the U.S.: This talented man now follows a new line of thought. Many have a hard time accepting his teaching. He needs much prayer so that his gifting and energy will be used in the best way possible for the Lord. He wants to serve the Lord with his whole heart. However, Watchman Nee’s name is now connected to things which many feel he would not approve of if he knew about it.41In spite of an earlier respectful reference to the Chinese leaders, Madsen’s anxiety is specified every time these very same individuals are mentioned in Mod Målet: Witness Lee and Stephan [sic] Kaung have received American citizenship. They are very energetic and attract hundreds of people. I feel a deep anxiety when I reflect on their work. They have been entangled in something fatally exclusive and sectarian, in spite of their rich giftings. We must keep them in our prayers.42After having studied Nee’s book The Normal Christian Church Life Madsen thought (in hindsight) he was able to detect a seed of the exclusivity he witnessed with Witness Lee’s work in Taiwan. After Lee moved to the U.S. and became even more extreme, Madsen asserted this was a direct result of Lee rigidly following the principles laid out by Watchman Nee.43 Madsen observed that Nee’s teachings had a positive impact in many places which gather around the message of the Cross and its significance for the individual believer. However, Madsen believed he saw a danger in an overemphasis on the subjective. The church-oriented books, in turn, according to Madsen have had harmful effects.44 Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-16-2008 at 03:47 AM. |
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09-16-2008, 07:40 AM
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#880 | ||
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Member
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Posts: 181
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Quote:
I have to respectfully disagree. I went back over the thread and reviewed it as much as time would permit me. Post after post included verses to refute what Matt was saying. Actually, it was not a matter of disliking what Matt said, but rather disagreeing with what he said. Here is a bibilically balancing view that I am still waiting for Matt to answer: Quote:
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09-16-2008, 07:45 AM
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#881 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 42
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Quote:
How convenient it was for Witness Lee to take the young Americans on a so-called “tour” of the “church life” in Taiwan, when none of them could speak or read Chinese to be able to get a clear picture of the situation in Taiwan, and in turn Witness Lee could “show off” his success in the U.S. My impression as a member of the LC was that these people who actually visited Taiwan had “truly seen the light.” They had seen the real fruit of teachings regarding the LC, Witness Lee’s teachings specifically, and had the assurance that this was truly the way to go to touch reality and to “build the church.” Of course, they had seen only what Witness Lee wanted them to see and then were used to convince others of the veracity of his teachings and the “local church movement.” I remember from the first time I visited an LC meeting in Houston how adamant each member was regarding not only the reality of the scriptures (which greatly appealed to me) but on the other hand also their vehemence regarding THE Local Church. It is like you could not have the one without the other. This was a real “hook” for capturing others for this movement: genuine love of the Lord and the scriptures and good intentions to give ourselves for the building of the church, the REAL bride of Christ. The amazing thing is all along Witness Lee kept preaching “only Christ.” We were told never to add anything when in reality the movement was “Christ and THE church.” I agree with Thankful Jane that strict adherence to directives of Witness Lee surely was/is idolatry as it interferes with one’s seeking the Lord Himself. bookworm |
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09-16-2008, 07:59 AM
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#882 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Quote:
I did introduce a biblical balance. I said that the Bible does give us ground to be "for" things which in the extreme might not be Christ. We can be for the truth, the gospel, for loving others, for helping children, for discipleship, even for the "vision" of Christ and the Church," that is if we are for Jesus Christ first and we see being for these things as a pure expression of our love for him and (and here is the test) we don't let being for any of those things or any others come between us and other believers. Matt seemed to be saying that if you are for "the vision of Christ and the Church" you are ipso facto probably in idolatry. I can see how you could be because many who are for these things let them divide. But it ain't necessarily so. Matt seemed to be saying it was necessarily so. One question is, Is idol the right word? For example, is baptism an idol to the Baptists? Is predestination an idol to the Calvinists? Is tongue-speaking an idol to Pentecostals? If you say these people are into idolatry too then I'll respect your argument because then I'll understand it. But it's possible your first reaction will be "it depends," which is exactly what the counter-argument to you and Matt is here. I will concede, however, that the LC system plainly set its members up to easily fall into idolatry, by emphasizing things to the point of making them a basis of fellowship, e.g. the local ground, the "ministry," the "recovery," etc. Just about everything that they claimed they had that no one else had or possibly even could have without their help, permission, blessing, franchise rights, whatever. |
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09-16-2008, 08:18 AM
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#883 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Let me restate what you are saying here. You are saying that according to your understanding of Matt's definition of idolatry those who said they were "of" certain ones were idolaters. Later Paul says not to eat with idolaters, so then you say that Matt's definition would mean the whole church needed to disbanded. Matt can speak for himself, but I don't see that this example fits what I heard Matt define. I wouldn' say that what was going on in Corinth related to saying "I am of" was the same as what we did in the Local Churches. There was someting happening in Corinth in seed form that was headed the wrong direction. If those with Apollos had put out everyone else, or had broken away and formed their own group saying they would submit absolutely to Apollos and whoever did not do this was not the true church and would not be received, then then Matt's definition might fit. In the event that Appollos's followers had become exclusive and insisted on everyone following Apollos as God's man, the "not to eat with" directive would probably work out easily because I doubt Apollos's bunch would want to eat with the rest. I think there is a difference between the situation in the Local Churches and that in Corinth. Corinth looks good by comparison. TJ |
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09-16-2008, 10:23 AM
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#884 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
Quote:
Martin Luther, in the early 16th century, as he was facing all the power of the Pope at the Diet of Worms, said that he would not budge unless convicted by "plain reason or the scriptures." Both have been offered here in abundance. Neither has been heard.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-16-2008, 10:55 AM
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#885 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 181
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Quote:
Not a trick question. They are beyond my ability to concoct. Just wondering. Roger PS I am the chief of those who speak from “my general impression.” Thanks for helping me to be more thourough. |
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09-16-2008, 02:43 PM
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#886 | |
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-16-2008, 04:13 PM
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#887 | |
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I can remember what a burning his words caused in my being. He told us to go home and deal with our consciences before the Lord. We went home and did so. I had no feeling at the time that I was doing it out of loyalty to "The Ministry." In my heart I was getting help on exercising before the Lord, and what I was doing when I went home was anything but idolatry. I, and most others, were genuinely touching the Lord. His presence was too real. Of course, at the time there was a lot I didn't know about Witness Lee, and eventually I came to understand that even in the matter of touching the Lord on an individual basis the group agenda was always lurking. Nevertheless, my heart was clear before the Lord at the time, and there is no way I could have been accused of idolatry. There are many saints in that system today who are having similar experiences. Bottom line is: You can’t paint everybody in the Living Stream Churches as having some involvement with idolatry. It’s just not a righteous view. Roger |
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09-16-2008, 11:34 PM
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#888 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
Posts: 303
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Is everyone in LSM-abiding churches doing something equivalent? If so, should I turn down meal invitations? If not, is there something other than affiliation with an "LSM-church" which determines whether the "idolatry" is so bad that, as in Corinth, I should refuse and reject certain believers? Peter
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I Have Finished My Course |
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09-17-2008, 04:18 AM
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#889 |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Just a quick note to say that I was able to read the recent posts for the first time this morning, and I plan to respond as soon as I can. I have a packed week and will be out of pocket (away from a computer) for most of it. Thanks for your patience, and thanks for your good responses and questions.
Thankful Jane |
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09-17-2008, 09:26 AM
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#890 |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 54
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how about an 8 pound gorilla?
Sorry for the 800 pound gorilla remark, it was a little too colorful and off base, I will try to avoid uneeded hyperbole in the future.
I would say that the LC was not devoid of healthy teachings, I have heard quotes that 80 percent of the teachings of WL were founded in the brethern movement. Therefore, on the basics Christ was recognized as the preeminient One. This was clear in my understanding of the teachings of Witness Lee. WL was not the minister of the age and is not perfect, but there was the element of experiencing Christ that is in his ministry and as such, can lay the ground work for a healthy practice of the church. Many used his teachings and eventually brought him into an unhealthy exclusive understanding and practice of the church. Do you remember he wrothe the book "Experiencing Christ?" he didn't write "Eexperiencing the Church" and if you look at that book there are ample references to knowing the Lord Jesus, that can be used in any Sunday School class to have a better understanding of how to know and live Jesus. Today, there are many problems, that had their start early on in his ministry, but to ignore some of the teachings that were helpful will only cause the adjusting to go on to counter statements like "all who have attended are decieved, or the ministry was influensed by Satan. Sorry, I don't have the direct references and I have to run, please correct if I'm wrong. Grace to you! Shawn |
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09-17-2008, 01:20 PM
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#891 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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Quote:
Can out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing? With the tongue (can) we Bless God and curse men? Does a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree bear olive berries? Witness Lee's ministry is the epitome of blessing and cursing; bitter and sweet, as you have clearly noted above. Can such a thing be? How do you justify your position? 16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. No one denies the dark side of Witness Lee's ministry, so how can darkness and light coexist? You're going to need more than a bigger font .... Nell and James (Ch. 3) Last edited by Nell; 09-17-2008 at 01:26 PM. |
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09-17-2008, 01:41 PM
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#892 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Amen, brother James! Lord, be merciful to us all.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-17-2008, 02:27 PM
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#893 |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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I've seen some things pretty close to cursing on these boards, and blessing from the same mouths (fingers?). I would hate to think that someone would say of me that because I was harsh with some at times in my life (and who hasn't been?) that means I've never blessed anyone either.
James isn't saying that blessing and cursing cannot come out of the same person, he's saying it should not. Otherwise we're all doomed. |
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09-17-2008, 03:41 PM
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#894 |
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Posts: 181
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Yes, and every church in the world, and every minister in the world is doomed. Could it be that the Lord has, because of the words of James, totally discarded His Church?
Roger |
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09-18-2008, 03:15 AM
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#895 |
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Location: Texas
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Silly me. What was I thinking?
Nell |
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09-18-2008, 04:04 AM
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#896 | |
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Member
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Posts: 688
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General comment
The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Quote:
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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09-18-2008, 05:28 AM
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#897 | |
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Posts: 181
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Someone has brought up different ministers from the past. But let's just take Witness Lee, for example. We were all there testifying of how blessed we were from the words spoken during his open ministry. Yet, at the same time, he was quick to "curse" those who disagreed with him. I put the words blessings and curse in quotes because both words can be open to interpretation. When Witness Lee opened his mouth to condemn people like John Ingalls, it was clearly a curse, but to many it was a kind of a blessing. So I guess that brings up a question. How do you define blessing, and how do you define cursing? Someone said that they heard cursing come from this board. I don’t think so. To bless someone is to speak well of them and ask God’s favor upon what they are doing. So to curse someone must mean to ask God to hinder and foil someone or even to condemn them. I have been cursed by some in the Local Church before. It was prayed that things would not go well in my life, and whenever anything did go wrong, it was said that the reason was because I was “against The Ministry” (The Lord did vindicate in the end). I don’t think I’ve seen that kind of thing here. Maybe I’m all wet, but I think you have to view James’ words in light of what we see happening around us. Otherwise, as soon as we find out that a minister has had cursing coming from his mouth, then we would have to totally discard everything we were blessed with from him before. I don’t think this is off-topic. Being cursed by someone in the Local Church is a terrible abuse. Roger |
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09-18-2008, 08:53 AM
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#898 |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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If Witness Lee had repented for his sins against the Lord's brothers while he was leading a "worldwide" Christian organization, and changed his ways, you all might have a point. He did not. How do we know? Because those who followed him in leadership have expanded and multiplied the sinful leadership practices begun by Lee, and in many ways, the remaining organization of a publishing company and its franchise "churches" are worse. The fruit of unrighteousness remains.
As long as people are willing to compromise and tolerate unrepentant sin and appreciate "the good works" of the sinner, sinful behavior will continue. Why repent if none are willing to hold you accountable? This is hypocrisy. This is leaven. This is meat sacrificed to idols. This is bad fruit. It really doesn't matter who does it. It's wrong. Sin is sin...call it what it is. God does not tolerate sin. He sent His Son to pay the price for our sinful behavior. What an affront to that ultimate sacrifice. What an affront! Does God drink of the guilded cup of the "good Witness Lee" with Lee's works of darkness inside? I don't think so. Whatever is holy and clean is of God. Witness Lee's righteousness is as filthy rags. So is mine. So is yours. Why did God send Adam out of the garden if all he did was get a little deceived along the way? Chill, dude. Didn't Adam name all the animals? Look at all the good things Adam did. Adam was numero uno! The MAN. It wasn't his fault anyway...it was hers. Nope. I don't buy it. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. Nell Last edited by Nell; 09-18-2008 at 09:13 AM. |
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09-18-2008, 09:03 AM
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#899 | |
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Posts: 42
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Quote:
How about letting the Word of God speak to us instead of our trying to manipulate it? If there were to be a forum for those whose ancestors were abused by Martin Luther or by Darby, let those persons speak. But don’t shoot them down because of what they are sharing just for the sake of argument and on the false pretense of “presenting a balanced view.” Let the truth be stated. bookworm |
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09-18-2008, 09:13 AM
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#900 | |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Dear Nell,
The point is not that Lee or anyone else doesn't need to repent of sins. The point is that you said because he cursed some therefore he never blessed any, or because he didn't repent (to your satisfaction) any blessing he might have rendered is invalidated. My point is that either point is an extreme and incorrect view. This issue is not how Lee will be judged. We don't know that. The issue is you seem to be saying he did nothing pleasing to God. Quote:
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09-18-2008, 09:23 AM
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#901 |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
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What are you talking about?
Read it again, Igzy. I didn't say any of that. I made 1 statement agreeing with Shawn, I quoted some verses and asked some questions. You have totally misrepresented my post. Nell |
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09-18-2008, 09:26 AM
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#902 |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Okay, please help me to understand by telling me what you don't buy? Because I think you are misunderstanding me, too.
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09-18-2008, 10:26 AM
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#903 |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
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I don't buy the whole idea that Witness Lee's ministry is an issue in the life of any Christian, to the extent lobbyists promote the "good" parts and a "sorry about the bad stuff but the good stuff makes it all worthwhile."
I don't buy that Christians need "Lee's ministry" AT ALL. Whatever is of eternal value or "good" about Witness Lee's ministry is in the Bible and we don't need Witness Lee to validate it. Witness Lee was not the source. He received a portion, but he also manufactured a portion. In fact, there is too much unrepentant sinful behavior associated with Lee to make this man an issue. Was I blessed by God as a result of Lee's ministry? Yes. I've said so many times. Was Lee the source of the blessing? No. God was. Have I been blessed as a result of anyone else. Certainly. Do we need Lee's ministry? Others have given their lives to Lee's ministry and believe there is no other way to "go on", etc. I don't buy it. Nell Last edited by Nell; 09-18-2008 at 11:45 AM. |
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09-18-2008, 01:08 PM
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#904 | |
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Location: USA
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09-18-2008, 01:59 PM
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#905 | ||
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Quote:
Yes, we need accountability, repentance for wrongdoings, rejection of the leaven of hypocrisy, but to liken my posts to "eating meat sacrificed to idols" is totally absurd. Quote:
Does anyone else feel this way about my posts? Shall I become as nasty as those who disagree with me? That would be easy.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-18-2008, 02:13 PM
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#906 | |
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Member
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Posts: 688
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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09-18-2008, 02:26 PM
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#907 | |
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Member
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Posts: 42
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I respect the word of those who make these statements. I do not feel the need to question them or to question the scriptures they share. You will note I have not made that many statements on this thread; therefore I am in no way insisting that “I alone can state the truth.” |
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09-18-2008, 03:17 PM
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#908 | |
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Member
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Location: Natal Transvaal
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Yet he has written words which brought the light of salvation to my view which I have rarely seen outside the Bible. Luther could be narrow, pinched, crabby, miserable, and mean. Judgmental, horrible, nasty stuff. But at the same time God used him mightily. I have read some of Lee's writings, some of the FPR characterizations of the 'rebels' come to mind, that are as nasty and unchristian as any you could imagine. I don't recommend reading it. It is really unchristian stuff. And I don't mind calling him on it. At the same time, some of his writings brought me light. I think christian teachers and christian leaders can be capable of both good and bad. Luther never repented of his vituperations of others, as far as I know. Only God knows where he, Lee, or anyone else stands. |
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09-18-2008, 05:49 PM
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#909 | |
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Posts: 181
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Re: The LCS Factor
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09-19-2008, 05:28 AM
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#910 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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What does bother me are the sweeping, condemning generalizations which result. I am only being consistent here -- rejecting the extremes from both sides, and attempting to stick to the facts of the matter. That's why I am so surprised to hear your comment that I "do not care to face these facts and for some reason feel compelled to defend the LCS." I have never diminished bad behavior. I do defend the many precious saints I have known over the years. I am one also who does feel the need to ask questions of those who have been abused. Facts are important. Asking questions is not wrong, nor does it negate the pain of the abused ones. It is only a fairhearted attempt to be accurate, and doesn't need to be interpreted as an "interrogation."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-19-2008, 06:53 AM
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#911 |
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Member
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Posts: 42
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Re: The LCS Factor
Once again I will state that I have not personally attacked Ohio. Perhaps he takes it this way because I quoted him on post #899. In that post I followed up on his noting that Martin Luther and Darby had abused people. My point in that post was to point out that persons should be free to share their experiences of abuse without being put down for doing so. I was merely pointing out how in my opinion this thread had digressed due to people not wanting to face the facts of abuses that have occurred in the LC and feeling compelled to defend the LC.
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09-19-2008, 08:26 AM
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#912 |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
Bookworm, I, and all others I'm sure, agree wholeheartedly that "persons should be free to share their experiences of abuse." I also have some sad stories of my own to tell, but some are just too personal, and this becomes compounded by the fact that I am no longer as "anonymous" as I once was. The flip side to anonymity is the issue of credibility -- how can the details be verified. But ... news outlets do this all the time, quoting "sources who spoke only on the condition of anonymity."
Once again, I will say that I have not seen any here who were "not wanting to face the facts of abuses." This statement is just not fair. To ask questions in order to "get to the bottom of things" is not denial, but a quest for the truth. It is also the just prerogative of all those involved, is it not? When it comes to "defending the LC," try to see this from another perspective. Have you heard of "guilt by association?" There are tens of thousands of Christians involved in this statement. They all are as different as the posters on this forum. Nobody is "just like me" or are they "just like you." When I read "sweeping, condemning generalizations," I am forced to speak up, and that appears to some like you that I am "defending the LCS." In actuality, I am only protesting prejudices and stereotypes. Peace
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-19-2008, 10:39 AM
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#913 | ||
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: The LCS Factor
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This is what Jesus said about leaven: Matt. 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Is that fair? Is that balanced? Do you think he whispered "betware"? I don't. This is what Jesus said to the hypocrites about their hypocrisy: Matt. 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Was that fair? Was that balanced? What about this? Is this fair? Mark 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. Please provide me some scripture verses that prescribe the Christian's responsibility to be "fair and balance". Define "fair". Fair according to what standard: political correctness, moral relativism, or the truth of God's word? Nell |
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09-19-2008, 10:43 AM
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#914 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Nell Last edited by Nell; 09-19-2008 at 10:51 AM. |
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09-19-2008, 01:30 PM
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#915 |
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Member
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Posts: 181
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Re: The LCS Factor
To say that all saints in the Local Church are indulging in idolatry, just by virtue of the fact that they are there is an unbalanced view.
To admit that there are many who do engage in idolatry, but that there are also many who do not; that is "fair and balanced." Roger |
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09-19-2008, 06:10 PM
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#916 |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
Nell: I didn't single you out, Ohio. Please don't put words in my mouth.
Nell, I didn't put words in your mouth. You put them in your post and I quoted you. Are you now retracting your words? Since when has "fair and balanced" become scriptural? There are hundreds of verses I could quote. Read your Bible. Here's a good one: Phil. 4.5 Forbearance is "fair and balanced." This is what Jesus said about leaven: Matt. 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. Is that fair? Is that balanced? Do you think he whispered "beware"? I don't. The Lord's word was very fair and balanced. I like it. He condemned those whose actions deserved it. The Lord did not condemn every single Israelite who ever went into the temple. This is what Jesus said to the hypocrites about their hypocrisy: Matt. 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Was that fair? Was that balanced? The Lord was very "fair and balanced" here. He spoke of the hypocrisy of those who pretend righteous actions. The Israelites loved the Lord because He rebuked their rotten leaders. But not all were rotten, there were a few like Nicodemus. Praise the Lord for that. What about this? Is this fair? Mark 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; 16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple. 17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves. 18 And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine. The Lord was very "fair and balanced" here also. He exposed evil and unrighteousness in His Father's house. The Lord never treated the sheep of God cruelly. He went straight to the source of corruption. Isn't He wonderful!?! Please provide me some scripture verses that prescribe the Christian's responsibility to be "fair and balance". Define "fair". Fair according to what standard: political correctness, moral relativism, or the truth of God's word? You could start with the Beatitudes.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-19-2008, 10:11 PM
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#917 |
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Member
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Posts: 73
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Duck Test
After I left the local churches, I spent time (20 years) visiting and becoming involved in all types of churches (not all at once). I was seeking to find the truth on many points.
I don't see much similarity, really, between Witness Lee and the local churches and these various Christian teachers and groups. I have never seen the same level of arrogance, pride, exclusion, leader-worship, error in teaching, etc. as I saw come from Witness Lee and the local churches. Effective preachers/teachers are pretty humble. Most Christians are open to reaching out to any other Christian regardless of the church they attend. They reach out without motive of bringing them into 'the fold'. Some are reading their Bibles regularly and seeking the Lord in their everyday life, but they don't take the view they are superior to others. These usually avoid putting too much emphasis on a human preacher/teacher knowing worship belongs to Jesus, the King of Kings. Therefore, I just don't get the attempt to validate the wrong-doings or abuses of Witness Lee and the local churches by saying there is similarity between other Christian teachers or groups. They (other preachers and groups) aren't touting they are the one true church and have 'the light' on the earth today. So, to me, it doesn't pass the Duck Test: If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, I would call it a duck. Surely, I cannot be alone in my 20 year Duck Test and conclusion that it doesn't walk or quack like a duck. Last edited by blessD; 09-20-2008 at 09:36 AM. |
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09-20-2008, 03:45 AM
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#918 | |
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Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: Duck Test
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Nell |
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09-20-2008, 03:46 AM
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#919 | |
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Admin/Moderator
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Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Last edited by Nell; 09-20-2008 at 04:21 AM. |
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09-20-2008, 07:34 AM
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#920 |
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Re: Duck Test
Hello dear sister BlessD,
I have not been away from the LC nearly as long as you have, but like you I have received much mercy from the Lord and He has granted me a seeking heart. (How I need to fall on my face before Him and thank and praise Him!) Since leaving the LC, I have fellowshipped with a good number of Christians from several home churches, community churches, and free groups. I also still occassionally get together with a few brothers from the LC. Besides all this fellowship from many sources, our dear Lord has greatly blessed me by opening my eyes to the riches which can be found in the writings and speakings of many dear ministers of Christ besides Nee and Lee. Having been through all this, and having considered all this before the Lord, my basic conclusion remains: In the LSM-loyal LC there is a visible, tangible, lack of both a spirit of repentance and a spirit of love, and this lack continues to grow over time. In the place of a spirit of repentance and a spirit of love, there exists a terrible spirit of religious jealousy. I love so many there, but over time the LSM system continues to grow further and further away from the Lord. So many dear ones don't know anything else and don't know what to do. This saddens me and grieves my heart to no end. :verysad: May God be merciful to them and may he continue to be merciful to all of us.
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"The best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better." Richard Rohr, Things Hidden: Scripture as Spirituality |
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09-20-2008, 10:33 AM
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#921 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Re: Finally answering
Originally Posted by Ohio
Much has been said concerning idolatry in Israel, and we all could find many O.T. scripture to build a case, but I still have a gnawing question -- why did the Lord never address idolatry in the gospels. The Lord rebuked the Jewish leaders severely, even calling them "snakes" to their face, but never brought up the word "idol" or its many variants. This troubles me. The Lord did address many serious heart matters repeatedly, such as hypocrisy, loving traditions of men, lording it over others, stubbornness, unbelief, etc. but He never once mentioned idolatry in Israel, when He walked the earth. Why is that? Did He forget? In fact, the N.T. is dead silent on idolatry until Stephen brought up Israel's history in Ac 7.41-43. Dear Ohio, The O.T. Scriptures are for our learning. God did not fill the O.T. with warnings about idolatry just to fill the pages with print. According to the Bible, whatever is there is for our learning. The Bible says: Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope. 2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (Note: both of these passages are referring to the O.T. because it was the only “scriptures” they had when Paul wrote these words.) Are you suggesting that if Jesus didn’t mention something that is clearly mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, His words, to the exclusion of others in the Scriptures, should become a standard for our understanding the Word of God? This strikes at something very fundamental in what we believe, which is that all Scripture is God-breathed. I don’t believe the red letter verses are more the Word of God than others, do you? If the standard for understanding the Word of God is “Did Jesus mention or not mention something?” then you can reduce your Bible to the red letters and whatever passages in the O.T. they refer to, and be done with it. To say that Jesus didn’t say something is not a biblical argument. Does it “gnaw” at you if people talk about other things in the Bible that Jesus did not mention? I don’t remember him talking about Adam and the garden of Eden. I am sure we could think of other things in the O.T. that he didn’t talk about when he was on earth. Also, we shouldn’t forget that the New Testament speaks about spiritual realities. The O.T. was given to help us understand concepts that are not easy to understand. We no longer have animal sacrifices and all the various offerings literally, but they help us understand the sacrifice of God's son and what that means spiritually. It is the same with idolatry. There is a spiritual application. Jesus may not have said the word “idolatry” but he clearly expresses the idea when he says we cannot serve two masters and when he says we should love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, strength, referring to the ten commandments. What will you do with I Cor. 10:14 where Paul clearly told us to flee idolatry, after pointing back to the idolatry of the children of Israel. (BTW, this is a passage that you could use to argue that God doesn’t judge all ... because he said “some” repeatedly. I’m all for biblical discussion, even if I argue the other side a bit. It's always a good thing if we are handling the Word of God ourselves. J) Originally Posted by Ohio The Lord also nearly put no responsibility on the sheep. He placed it all squarely and pointedly and repeatedly on their leaders, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, fools, serpents, blind hypocrites!" Your use of “nearly no” referring to the sheep and then “all” referring to the leaders is confusing. Which is it? We know that He puts responsibility on us as sheep for our own actions because we will have to give account in that day for the things done in our body. I think this means we should be careful not to try and lay blame that is ours elsewhere. I do agree, however, that the lionshare of blame goes on the leaders. Jer. 23 and Ez. 34 make that clear. This does not absolve us for submitting to bad leaders when they were in violation of the word of God, because we were commanded to serve God only. Originally Posted by Ohio When the N.T. finally confronted idols for the first time, it was circa A.D. 50, at the Acts 15 council, which was supposed to be all about circumcision and the way of salvation. Since James et. al. were overwhelmed by the testimonies of Simeon and the plain truths of scripture, James decided to divert their attention to "abstain from things sacrificed to idols." Talking about changing the subject! It was Jewish pride and religious prejudices in Jerusalem which first introduced the topic of idolatry to the church. Interestingly, when Paul did finally travel to Europe, and confronted the rampant Greek idolatry in Athens and Corinth, he played down the matter of "abstaining," and instead instituted the first "don't ask, don't tell" policy (I Cor 10.25). I don’t have time to look into this now. You are only speculating about why James did what he did. I don’t agree that this was the first introduction to the church of the topic of idolatry. The Jewish people understood idolatry quite well having under their belt the history of the Babylonian captivity which took place when God judged them for their idolatries. This was not a foreign topic. Also, there were people who had practiced idolatry before, who were coming to Christ and being admitted to the church. Their past way of life would easily be a topic. (That’s some of my speculation.) Originally Posted by Ohio Martin Luther, in the early 16th century, as he was facing all the power of the Pope at the Diet of Worms, said that he would not budge unless convicted by "plain reason or the scriptures." Both have been offered here in abundance. Neither has been heard. No, Ohio,scriptural arguments have not been offered in “abundance.” I think that’s exaggeration. So is your statement that “neither has been heard.” I once heard a counselor say not to mix up “hearing” with “agreeing.” It would be more true to say “neither has been agreed with or accepted.” Quote:
Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-20-2008 at 11:31 AM. Reason: changing subject line |
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09-20-2008, 10:44 AM
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Re: Finally answering
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Yes, general impressions seem to rule the day here on both sides of arguments. Sigh. To answer your question about James and his followers, I don’t think we have enough information to make the comparison to Lee and his followers. We know plenty enough about Lee and his followers to make statements about how their beliefs and practices compare to idolatry. I doubt seriously James was like Lee. Maybe Diotrophes was. Also, James was willing to make concessions later. That doesn’t sound like Lee. Roger I don’t think that “devotion” is the only test for idolatry. Who/what we serve and obey more than God is a better test and one we can measure because we can see deeds done that are disobedient to God. We can’t measure “love” or “devotion” because they are feelings of the heart. I actually agree with the argument that idolatry is far reaching (outside of the LC.) I really don’t have a problem calling it what it is, wherever it is, even when it fits me. The LC idolatry goes beyond just loving some things. They fight to protect these things as God’s very truth and are willing to exclude others based on their own definition of what is true. This takes it to another level of seriousness. What I don’t get is why it seems so important to avoid applying the idolatry shoe to all feet that it fits. Isn’t forgiveness only a few breaths of confession to God away? Do we need to defend our own or others works as righteous? According to the Bible, our best, even if it seems defensible to us, is but filthy rags to Him. Why do we need to protect people from hearing something they might not like to hear? Shouldn’t every person be given information to evaluate and reach their own conclusion? Do we really need to “protect” people from hearing certain arguments. In my opinion, part of the sickness in the LC today is a result of just such “protection.” People weren't allowed to develop discernment by experience and exercising their senses to know both good and evil. People don't develop strong immune systems without exposure to germs. They get antibodies this way. The LC folks are defenseless because they have not been allowed or encouraged to think for themselves. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-20-2008 at 11:31 AM. |
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09-20-2008, 10:49 AM
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Re: Finally answering
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If the broad brush doesn’t apply, it doesn’t apply. I still don't see anything wrong with broad brush observations, definitions, or applications. If people’s deeds cause them to fit under the picture that brush paints, then they apply to them. If they don’t fit, then they don’t apply. I am assuming from what you say that you never submitted to any demands made by Witness Lee, but only appreciated his teachings. Am I correct about this? Toledo, if a believer willingly submits to and obeys the demands of someone who tells them to do something that is against God’s word, isn’t such serving of someone else other than God an act of idolatry? Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-20-2008 at 11:33 AM. |
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09-20-2008, 11:00 AM
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Re: Finally answering
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I would never say that people can or do not have experiences of the Lord in the LC. It is possible to experience the Lord anywhere. For a view to be a righteous one, it must be true. So, we have to test the truth of the claim that all in the LC have some level of involvement in idolatry. Staying with my definition, which is to obey someone other than God in violation of God's Word, do you believe there are some in the LC who have submitted to the demands of the Blendeds in the present or who have not submitted to the demands of Lee in the past? Remember that silent assent is submission, and it is also sin if the demand is against God’s word. You can go a long way towards winning the argument with me that all were not involved in idolatry at least to some degree if you can prove to me that those who remain there are not submitting to dictates by men that are against the Word of God. If they are serving God only (not committing idolatry), they will not bow to unrighteous dictates, even if it costs them everything. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-20-2008 at 11:32 AM. |
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09-20-2008, 11:30 AM
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Re: Finally answering
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This verse by Paul is very specifically applied to people who are established to be such ones—ones for whom this is a way of life. If someone becomes involved in fornication or adultery and will not repent and stop the behavior, then they can be judged to be such a one. If a fellow believer habitually obeys dictates from someone that are clearly against the plain teaching of the Bible, and they will not repent when confronted with this, then they can be considered "such a one." This doesn't just apply to fornication, as I thought in the past. The Bible says clearly that one who practices coveting as a way of life is an idolater, and a brother who is an idolater is in the list of those with whom we should not eat. Would I refuse meal invites? It would depend on the situation. If it had not been clearly established that someone was "such a one," I would not decline an invitation to eat. However, if it had been clearly established that someone was "such a one," then I would decline. This doesn’t mean I could never talk to them. It just means that I would not be able to enjoy close, intimate, family interactions and fellowship with them around the table. My unwillingness to eat at the table with them is a reminder to them that something is wrong. The purpose in this is to help them not forget their sin and to help them come to repentance. Note that I said "if this is established." This can't be done on a whim or as a result of gossip you have heard. There must be a proper process of having established what is really true which involves them, meaning Matt. 18 steps of communicating. If you just decide you think someone is an idolater and stop eating with them without communicating why, that would be wrong. I have been put in this position in my life with people I love very much and am having to walk in it currently. I feel the loss keenly, but I have God’s peace that passes understanding and I believe He is working to convict of sin. I remember vividly a time in the past when the Lord gave me the verse "with such a one no not to eat" just before I was about to invite a sister to lunch, so I didn't. Later the Lord told me to ask her if she was involved in fornication. I did and she was, much to my surprise. When she refused to repent, I told her that the Bible did not allow me to have a nice social relationship with her as long as she continued this way of life because she was a sister in Christ. She chose to go her way for a few months, but later returned to tell me she had repented. Our fellowship was restored. She thanked me for having taken a clear stance with her about this. She had not been able to forget it. I know this sounds hard to think about practicing. It isn't easy to write about it either. We love people, but sometimes true love is to do the hard thing in love. Often, the hardest thing is honest communication. It's always easier just to avoid it. This is my view. I leave you and any one else to reach their own conclusion about what these verses mean in practice. Thankful Jane |
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09-20-2008, 11:59 AM
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Forbearance does not mean fair and balanced. Forbearance means patient, tolerant, self controlled, not responding to provocation. Fair and balanced refers to the fair presentation of facts without any bias; presenting facts in an even-handed manner, taking in account all sides without prejudice or favoritism; objective. (Not many can do this; not even Fox news.) That definition rules out the majority of us on this thread. Bias is clearly here on both sides of this discussion. The Bible’s standard is not fair and balanced. The Bible’s standard is truth. I choose not to use fair and balanced as a standard for communicating, but the Bible’s. What are some more of those hundreds of verses that you say show "fair and balanced?" The ones you gave so far show that truth was the standard Jesus used. He very frequently started his statements with "I tell you the truth (truly, truly; verily, verily)." So the question is what is true? Some here believe that there are some in the LCs who are not guilty of practicing idolatry. Some here believe that all are to some degree. What do the facts show? If a believer habitually obeys the words of someone other than God and does things that God Word says are wrong, is not this to serve another other than God, and is not this idolatry? If people are aware that brothers in Christ like John I, Bill M, and Titus C have been cut off or quarantined by the dictates of leadership and they have not investigated this and have just gone along with the dictates to cut off fellowship with these brothers in Christ by silently assenting to something that can be proven to be against the words of the Bible, isn't this idolatry? Their silence is assent. I will agree that there may be some in the LC that are new and have yet to hear of the quarantines, etc. So, I would agree at least in this case that it is possible that not "all" are guilty. When someone who is new, however, is presented with the opportunity to agree with quarantining and if they don't question this but just go along, they become guilty. If people in the LCs don’t realize or understand the seriousness of what they are doing, then shouldn’t someone tell them so they can repent and say that they disagree with this practice? Even those in the LCs who have stopped obeying the Blendeds in the present, have obeyed them and Lee in the past. Shouldn’t they repent and state that what they did in the past was wrong because they submitted to someone other than God? If they don’t, aren’t they still guilty? Thankful Jane |
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09-20-2008, 12:07 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Finally answering
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And, yes, I appreciated his teachings, even as I appreciated the teachings of Lewis Sperry Chafer that were remarkably similar. Quote:
1) I cannot recall ever being asked to do anything against God's word. However, I realize that time is both a balm and an anesthetic -- maybe I have forgotten or have hidden away some lapse of conscience. Do you, perhaps, have an example that may refresh my memory. I am not at all sure of what you mean. 2) "{I}sn’t such serving of someone else other than God an act of idolatry?" Idolatry has to do with the worship of idols. The "such serving" to which you refer would seem to be more of an act of disobedience. Eve ate an apple (whatever...), submitting to the serpent against God's word, yet the bible never calls her an idolater. I'm not saying that you haven't put your finger on some very serious offenses in the local churches. Rather that calling it idolatry is forcing a definition that simply does not fit. As much as Cinderella's step-sisters tried, they could not get their feet into Prince Charming's glass slipper. At the beginning of this thread djohnson kept referring to "Leeaholisim", a made up term, and Matt corrected him -- there is no such thing as "Leeaholism". Unfortunately, calling the problem idolatry doesn't fit any better (then insisting that everyone who ever met with the local churches bought into idolatry fits even less).
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-20-2008, 12:09 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
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Re: Duck Test
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-20-2008, 06:04 PM
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Re: Finally answering
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Btw, post #750 is just too long for me to comment on. And, also btw, "fair and balanced" can be well described by the word "forbearance." It is an excellent virtue of Christians. That's why it should be made known to others. In this godly virtue, the Lord is near. Some of the extreme views I have read here I would not want anyone to hear or know. TJ, we can talk about this forever and get no where. The matter is simple. The N.T. does not support the extreme views on idolatry in all the LC's that are promoted by some on this thread. I personally feel, as I posted, that if the matter was that urgent for Israel, then the Lord would have addressed it while on earth, but he did not. Considering the breadth of topics covered in the gospels, this is legitimate. You are entitled to your views also. Peace.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-20-2008, 08:26 PM
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Re: Finally answering
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Nell |
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09-20-2008, 09:22 PM
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Re: Finally answering
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Would you mind quoting the general slur [speaking in an insulting or demeaning way] and insult [rude or insensitive or contemptuous comment] that I made on a wide group of people. Maybe I did this, but I don’t remember doing it. Quote:
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Part of the problem we are having on this thread is understanding what idolatry is and if it has any application to believers. Do you think the Bible teaches that it is only applicable to literal idol worshippers, meaning heathen that bowed down to wood or stone or molten idols? I find that many misunderstandings and stalemated arguments occur because of failure to have a common understanding of terms being used. What explanation or definition do you find in the Bible? If you could give me verses I would appreciate that. Have you ever really studied this topic before? I just started seriously looking at it this year. Idolatry is everywhere in the Old Testament, especially among God’s people. I think we are foolish if we don’t consider seriously the possibility that it has application to us today. I don’t believe that idolatry just went away and as believers we don’t need to be warned by its dangers. Heb 2:1-3 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Since we can fall into the same example of unbelief as the children of Israel, it seems prudent that we should study and understand their failures. When I try to do that, I find idolatry everywhere. This tells me I need to seek to understand how idolatry applies to us as believers. Paul seemed to think it applied. I have been surprised to discover how much God equates idolatry with unfaithfulness to Him and with fornication and even whoredoms, both in the Old and the New Testaments. When the children of Israel fell into idolatry he often called their actions harlotry. He was very jealous over them. Paul tells us God is also jealous over us. Studying idolatry has helped me understand that He wants to relate to each of us directly as a husband and doesn’t want anyone or anything to come between us and Him. The second commandment says, “For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God ...” Understanding the perils of idolatry, and realizing that I unknowingly fell into it, has helped me want to walk in the light of His intense love and jealously and zealously guard my relationship with Him. Thankful Jane Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-20-2008 at 09:31 PM. |
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09-20-2008, 09:28 PM
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Re: Finally answering
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I never said all God’s people should be condemned as idolaters. Your misquoting is getting old. Sorry you find some of my comments "too obvious" to be worthy of a response. I try to respond to your comments out of respect without labeling them as unworthy in some way, but I’ll be happy to stop responding to them. Please be so kind as to stop responding to mine if you don’t want to have actual dialogue. Quote:
The Bible is kind of long too. It takes effort and time to get into that also. I guess pre-digested and leavened are a better way to go for some people. Quote:
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It is not an “extreme view” to say idolatry is being practiced by members of a very small group of believers (a very small percentage of the whole body of Christ) who got fixated on one man’s teaching and practices to such a degree that they could speak poorly of all other ministries and even exclude their real brothers from fellowship and never feel one pang of conscience when they did so. I agree with BlessD that this is far from the norm in most Christian circles. You did not escape this sin when you were in the LC any more than I did. Quote:
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TJ Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-20-2008 at 09:36 PM. |
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09-21-2008, 01:21 AM
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#933 |
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PR 11:1 A false balance is an abomination to the LORD,. |
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09-21-2008, 04:37 AM
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Re: Finally answering
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Can you show it to me so that I may give my Amen? Thank you.
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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09-21-2008, 04:48 AM
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Re: The LCS Factor
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No offense to Timotheist, maybe he was supporting my point, I don't know. Long ago I became disgusted with the practice of "verse wars." They were played too often. I just have not seen any scripture which provides the sweeping judgment of idolatry upon all who ever sat in a LC meeting. The scripture I have seen required huge stretches of inference. Toledo said it well here, "Rather that calling it idolatry is forcing a definition that simply does not fit. As much as Cinderella's step-sisters tried, they could not get their feet into Prince Charming's glass slipper."
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09-21-2008, 05:10 AM
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Re: Finally answering
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Isn't it a little unfair to say that I believe only "red letter" words, when my real comment was just this: If the case against idolatry in God's people was so great, don't you think that the Lord would have mentioned it while on earth? Can we both be "fair and balanced?"
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-21-2008, 08:30 AM
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Anyone who presents Truth (not just facts) is automatically fair and balanced. Fair means just; balanced means giving everything its just due. The truth by its very nature does that, otherwise it wouldn't be truth. The meaning of "fair and balanced" can be twisted, and has been in our time. News commentators are expected to shy away from making moral judgments, and so sometimes ridiculously ascribe moral ambiguity where no normal person would. For example, calling terrorists "freedom fighters," or banning the word "terrorist" because it is judgmental. This isn't fair and balanced, it's disengagement from reality. I don't think people here are alluding to that kind of "fair and balanced." So I think it's safe to say God, therefore God's word, is fair and balanced. That said, I think Jane makes a strong point in arguing that undiscerning obedience to leaders can issue in a kind of idolatry. This is why I said idolatry is a symptom not a cause. No one joins the LC to be an idolator, and few if any would remain in idolatry if they thought they had a choice. The whole problem with LSM/LCers is they don't think they have a choice. The root cause of it all is the inappropriate mandate of obedience and oneness that necessarily leads people to place leadership above the Word, their consciences and even the Holy Spirit. That's the reason for the moral ambivalence. This is the local church's chief flaw. Last edited by Cal; 09-21-2008 at 10:08 AM. |
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09-21-2008, 12:00 PM
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-21-2008, 04:23 PM
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Re: The LCS Factor
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09-22-2008, 08:26 AM
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Re: Finally answering
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I was replying to your remark that a broad brush is okay. I mentioned it because I thought it sounded much more ungracious than I would expect from you. I did not mean to imply that you had made such a slur. I apologize if I gave that sense; it was not at all my intent. However, I do not agree that it is okay to generally tar a wide group of people, then to simply say, if the shoe doesn't fit... Quote:
I agree that this non-biblical (extra-biblical?) term "quarantine" is utterly contrary to the scripture. Paul advises that there is a way for us to deal with unruly brothers in a locality -- "put away the wicked man from among yourselves". However, I do not at all see how this would apply to any of the brothers who have been falsely "quarantined". Nor do I see how a group of brothers can demand that all localities refuse to receive certain saints. In trying to do such a thing, they make themselves into a hierarchy and a headquarters. There is no such thing in the New Testament. However, to be fair ("fair" is still okay, isn't it?), I had no idea that John Ingalls or Bill Mallon or John So or Don Rutledge had been "quarantined". I was told that the first three had rebelled and left, and I knew that Don had moved from Dallas, but that was the extent of my knowledge. In the area where I lived and served, I never heard the matter discussed. As far as I know, none of the churches in the midwest refused to receive the quarantined brothers. I knew Don Rutledge personally and prayed for him regularly for the past many years. A bit less than a year ago, I got to see him again. He asked me what I thought about his being quarantined. I replied that I had never heard about it (which does not all set aside the possibility that I might have betrayed him if I had had the opportunity...). I write all this as a reply to the "broad brush" that has been applied in this thread. Not all localities were the same, nor did all regions practice the same sort of controls. Quote:
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No, not really. I've never considered it to be much of an issue except for Catholics and the idol worshipers I met in the Far East. Quote:
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Your argument for making idolatry something more than the worship of stones would carry more weight, perhaps, if idol worship did not continue to be a pervasive fact of life even in this age. Europe and Asia and Africa are full of stone idols that continue to be worshiped until this very day. North and South American as well are filled with Catholic idols. The worship of stones has not passed away, and we would do well to be aware of it. Quote:
I am only just now finding out some of the more sordid things about the LSM. I cannot blame anyone for finding fault with such a sinful situation as apparently existed (and for all I know may still exist). While I regret to learn of such weaknesses, moral errors, and sins on the part of WL and his closest followers, that cannot take away from the help I received in the bible from this earthen vessel. I learn only too late that WL was not practicing the things which he taught. All this leaves me to wonder which portions ought to be preserved and which portions ought to be abandoned. After much consideration, I am still left with the question of baby and bathwater.
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-22-2008, 09:42 AM
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#941 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: Finally answering
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Yesterday I heard something in the assembly from a book that corresponded to Toledo's comments here. Something like: "Everybody worships something, and if it's not God ..." It struck me as kind of "broad brush," because of all the recent posts here that are have been on my mind. Then the speaker gave a little "worship" test, "follow their time and the money..." In other words, where someone spends all their time and money indicates what their heart worships. I'm not saying I agree with this. Think about the busy mother overwhelmed by several small children who spends all her time and money on them. Is she worshiping her kids? How about those who work long hours to make ends meet. Are they worshiping their jobs? But ... it is another point of view that some may espouse concerning the worship of idolatry by the children of God.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-22-2008, 10:22 AM
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#942 | |
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Location: Natal Transvaal
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Re: Finally answering
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Regarding your "baby and bathwater" comment, I have often gone back and forth on that one. Still am, I suppose. I refuse to pretend a good chunk of my christian walk was worthless, that it was a big mistake, that I should have said "No" when someone invited me to a meeting, or turned on my heel the first time something dumb got said or did in my presence. If I walked out of every christian meeting when someone said something dumb I'd never finish any of them! I admit there is a pattern of stuff in the LC's, both teaching and practice, that violates both letter and spirit of God's word, & common sense to boot. But there were, & are, some good things that I still ascribe to God. So I enjoy the 'sorting' process here on the forum. I just try to remember that all the LSM folks are going to meet me at the throne, & have a say, and so are the folks here on the "LCD" (Localchurchdiscussions-dot-com). I find it awfully tempting to thow out my 'expert opinion' at times, but the Lord reminds me that I am responsible for every word... Peace, and thanks for your portion. aron |
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09-22-2008, 10:39 AM
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#943 | |
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Posts: 688
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Babies and Bathwater
Even as scathing as the Lord was against the scribes and Pharisess, He also at least once commended them to us:
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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09-22-2008, 10:40 AM
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#944 |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Helpful or Damaging?
Hi All,
Sorry I seem to be going weeks without having opportunities to view the forum, I hope I'm not to out of touch with the current topics.... I did want to clarify, the book I was refering to was "The Secret of Experiencing Christ," a book that I used as a reference point when I first began to consider if the LC was "cultic." I found this book very helpful in defining how to have a living, vital relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. This book and others, like, "The Experience of Life" are not discussed much on this forum as others, such as "The Economy of God," have others had help in being a Christian from these books? I am not negating the warped direction that LSM et al has taken and not championing the cause of Witness Lee; only looking for others thoughts concerning the benefits/hardships that have been encountered during their practice of the local churches and the ministry that was studied during this time. Nell, I think that maybe rephrasing your comments might help me and others to understand where you are coming from. Grace to all, Shawn |
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09-22-2008, 11:24 AM
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#945 |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 54
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Old News
As I said, I haven't seen the forum for a few weeks and my last response was based on the third page of this thread, that I thought was the latest response; sorry for missing the latest comments!
I do think that there can be an understanding offered to TJ and Matt in Toledo's experience (which was my experience also) that we all were not in the inner circle choosing who stays and who goes. We also were not asked to go against God's will in commands from WL; we were pretty much just reading the material. If the ones who keep asking were we for or against the quarantining of John Ingalls and the others would just consider most of the LC's were reading the ministry of WL and attending (sometimes) trainings when possible. Yes, there were encouragements to attend every training wherever possible, but when some didn't, it wasn't the end of the road for them (I was only able to make it for one live training: Daniel Zech.) and the rest: video trainings, when I could. As such we were mostly like other Chrisitian groups who carried the "we are it" assumptions a little too far and are now learning how to recieve our brothers and sisters with grace and not superiority over them. Yet I cannot discard some of the helps I have received and am now in the process with your help, in redefining the ministry I have received and how I can apply this ministry to the benefit of others. Shawn |
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09-22-2008, 12:24 PM
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#946 | |
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Re: Old News
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1) That is not an excuse that I can use; 2) I cannot recall any sort of discussion regarding who should stay or who should go. It was not our practice to ban or "quarantine" or forbid anyone from coming to our meetings in any of the midwest churches. We had a significant number of brothers who were happy to bring dissension into our meetings, yet we tolerated them. We even welcomed them, and tried to accommodate them as best we could. Those who eventually divided themselves off usually did so of their own accord, and even so, were often encouraged to return. Only rarely were brothers at long last asked to cease and desist, and even then it was only after the most egregious offenses. If you read Norm's thread regarding Detroit over on the Bereans forum, you may recall how tender and solicitous he was with regard to the divisive and dissenting brothers, and how careful he was to document the efforts to resolve any difficulties. In Columbus and in Mansfield, despite the conniving of LSM to produce parties among us, we made every effort to restore the divisive brothers. It was not our practice to put anyone out of the meetings without serious cause. In most such cases we were simply recognizing the choice of the dissenting ones to divide themselves off.
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-22-2008, 02:29 PM
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#947 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Answering your question
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Sorry I'm so slow answering! I'm just too busy these days. Here are the verses I was thinking of. I wasn’t giving an exact quote. Psa 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? Psa 24:4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. Psa 24:5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation. Another good verse is: Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Maybe I should have quoted them and substituted in fair and balanced to make my point. “Who shall stand in His holy place? He that is fair and balanced...” or “Let us draw near with a fair and balanced heart.” Also, I saw your post about Matthew 23. I read a few commentaries about verse 3, which say this was referring to the law of Moses that they were supposed to be teachers of, not to any perversions of it. The Concordant Literal translation says, “All then whatever they should be saying to you, do ....” Thankful Jane |
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09-22-2008, 02:45 PM
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#948 | ||
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Re: Answering your question
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I didn’t use the words “prejudiced and judgmental.” I used the word “excluded.” That was a nice way of saying “cut off” or “rejected.” Those who assented to the rejection of Bill and John, were bowing down and serving someone other than God and were disobeying God’s word which says to receive all whom Christ has received. If they had been serving God, they would not have rejected these brothers. Quote:
I chose to use “red letter words" as an abbreviated way to communicate my thought because “long” bugs you so much. The point I was making is that you seem unwilling to let the body of evidence weigh in that is found in the Old Testament which warns us of the dangers of bowing down and serving other gods. You seem to be unwilling to seriously consider its application to us just because Jesus didn’t mention “idolatry.” I told you that He did mention the concept when he said we could not serve two masters, and when he said we were to love God with 100% of our being. You didn’t respond to that. I am capable of participating on this thread without mentioning idolatry and still saying the same thing I am saying. It would just be a lot longer. I hope I didn’t introduce any new material into this post and just responded to yours, so you won’t feel the need to respond to me again. I accept your position and do not wish to continue to dialogue directly with you about this. I feel I am wasting both your time and mine. Peace. TJ Last edited by Thankful Jane; 09-22-2008 at 04:25 PM. |
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09-22-2008, 02:49 PM
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#949 |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Re: The LCS Factor
Hi Toledo,
I wanted to recognize my distance from California and Texas concerning any participation in the quarantining of the brothers in that locality, but your mentioning of how you practiced in your locality the long suffering of ones who were disorderly was also how I observed the care for these ones in Pittsburgh. The disruptions usually resulted in their decision to distance themselves from what they saw as problems with Witness Lee and any who would continue to receive his ministry, but I never witnessed a disfellowshipping or removal from mettings; with an open door offered to return if they so desired. I only began to meet with the saints around this time, so my position was more of an observer than in any decision making process. Shawn |
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09-22-2008, 02:52 PM
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#950 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I understand your explanation of fair and balanced and don't disagree, however, that is not the common understanding today. I personally choose to avoid using or responding to the plea to be “fair and balanced” in a biblical discussion because most do not understand it as you explained it. Some here may just be asking for truth when they request others to be "fair and balanced," but it doesn't come across that way. So, why don't we just make a plea for truth? Thankful Jane |
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09-22-2008, 04:22 PM
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#951 |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Re: The LCS Factor
Hi Toledo,
Please forgive me for not responding to your post #940 yet. I want to spend some time on it and I'm short on time right now. I do want to thank you for your kind, reasonable, and thoughtful response. I will reply as soon as I can. If some time doesn't open up in the next few days, it may be next week. Our ladies retreat starts in a few days and I have a lot to do to get ready for that. I have two questions in the interim. 1) Did you read or see the Fermentation of the Present Rebellion that was put out in 1990? Was that book circulated in the GLA? 2) Why is it so important that the word "all" not be used when talking about idolatry in the LC? The constant drum beat from a number of posters here is that all were not guilty. I don't believe I have ever said all were, in a blanket or generic fashion. I think I qualified it with some explanation of what I believed idolatry was, but again, why is this such a big deal? When I talk about idolatry, I am mostly interested in understanding what it is and how it applies to believers, because at this point, I believe it does apply. I am not interested in trying to rope everyone into some definition in order to condemn them. I currently believe that many of the abuses that took place in the LC are tied to idolatry, but as yet I haven't clearly explained why I think that. But back to my question--the way I look at it is that we all (there is that word again) should be ready and willing to examine ourselves regarding the possibility that we could have been involved in "idolatry" and have offended the Lord, or that we could become involved in the future if we don't guard ourselves. Don't we need to take responsibility for this if it is true and have a thorough repentance? John warned us to keep ourselves from idols. I'm not ready yet to believe he meant only those of wood and stone. So this is my basic attitude toward the topic. I think your response shows you have a similar desire to evaluate the truth of this in the light of the Bible. When I hear the upset over the use of "all," it sounds somewhat to me like a group of people being upset when they are told that they may have been exposed to some fatal disease and need treatment. Instead of being thankful for the warning and welcoming an examination and antidote, they resist saying that not all of them were exposed and not all have the disease. Why not just accept the possibility and apply the remedy? In our case the remedy is only a few breaths away. “Father, forgive me if I have bowed to someone other than you and disobeyed you. Forgive me for silently assenting to what was done to Bill and John and others. Please shine your light on me and show me if, in anyway, You see me serving other gods.” So, if you can, please tell me what is the reason for the upset about the "all" word? This really puzzles me. Thankful Jane |
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09-22-2008, 05:36 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I didn't look at that book again until a few days ago. I had seen it mentioned so much I thought I should read it. My assessment has changed: it is not simply that the tone was awful; its very content was awful. No wonder you saints have been bothered. Quote:
Not all churches are the same; not all sinners are the same. When I sin, I have the blood of Christ. When I have not sinned, I do not take the accusation. The accuser of the brethren is cast down. Quote:
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aron also referred to that verse in John. It says simply "keep yourself from idols". There is no hint there at all that in any way implies that idols mean anything more than they mean in every other mention in the bible. Perhaps you may well be able to convince me from the results of your study that idolatry typifies something in our modern lives, but even if you are able to do so, it won't be from that verse in John. Quote:
You (and others) keep demanding that I (and others) repent for sins that so far have not been proven. Nor have they even been reasonably ascribed according to our current understanding of the bible. Do please have the least little bit of faith in the Holy Spirit Who indwells me. I have no doubt that should the time come that I need to repent, He will be well able to convince me of sin and of righteousness and of judgment. Quote:
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-22-2008, 06:10 PM
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#953 | |
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Posts: 273
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I must butt in here. The word "all" means "all." There is no wiggle room with such absolute terms. When a group of over ten people is described about just about anything, the word "all" seldom works. When the group is over a thousand, I would be tempted to say it never works ... but I don't use such absolute terms so loosely. I'd advise you to drop the faux surprise at the response you and Matt have gotten from your endorsement of that term. It hurts your argument. SC |
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09-22-2008, 06:35 PM
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#954 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Answering your question
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My point at the time was that forbearance could be described as "fair and balanced." It seems really strange to me that you have made my simple expression the center of attention. Are you now going to play with all scripture by inserting my little expression? My introduction of "fair and balanced" was only to be a catch phrase for poster interactions, it was never intended to replace the "full assurance of faith" or a "pure heart" towards the Lord. A thousand insertions like this don't negate my original point. Quoting verses like this is not speaking the word of God, but rather the playing of games. I do believe these things are far below the standard of a person of your stature. We have had a friendly relationship for three years now, and it's quite troubling to watch it deteriorate over this matter of idolatry.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-22-2008, 07:06 PM
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Re: Answering your question
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Thankful Jane |
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09-22-2008, 07:25 PM
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#956 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Also, why do you feel it is necessary to falsely accuse me of something? Please tell me how you can know whether my puzzlement is real or not? You may not like what I write, but such an accusation is over the line. Thankful Jane |
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09-22-2008, 07:38 PM
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#957 | |
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I have neither the time nor interest in poring back through your many lengthy posts to prove whether or not you used the word "all" or not. Matt used it and you have endorsed his argument from the beginning. Even on this page you wrote: Why is it so important that the word "all" not be used when talking about idolatry in the LC? The constant drum beat from a number of posters here is that all were not guilty. I don't believe I have ever said all were, in a blanket or generic fashion. I think I qualified it with some explanation of what I believed idolatry was, but again, why is this such a big deal?Here you give implicit endorsement to the idea that all were guilty of idolatry. But this all seems a diversionary tactic. Why not state plainly where you stand on this all or nothing matter? Let me put it to you plainly: Do you think "all" who met in the Lord's Recovery for any length of time were guilty of idolatry? If you say no and draw a clear line at the level on the all or nothing continuum where you believe idolatry was practiced, I'll retract my previous post. SC |
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09-22-2008, 07:48 PM
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#958 | |
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Posts: 273
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Re: The LCS Factor
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These two sentences which you directed at Toledo -- "So, if you can, please tell me what is the reason for the upset about the "all" word? This really puzzles me." -- don't ring true to me. Anyone would know why a tar and feathering of an entire group would be offensive, particularly to people who were in (and maybe still somewhat in) that group. You're smart: you'd understand that. Of course I can't say what's in your heart. I may be interpreting you wrongly. If so, I apologize. I will now disappear into the night. This topic bores me immensely and I am sorry I jumped back in. SC |
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09-22-2008, 08:30 PM
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#959 | |
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,793
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Re: The LCS Factor
Just as there are spiritual realities to the positive things typified and exemplified in the Old Testament (Christ as our living water, our bread, our rock, etc..) I don’t think it is too much of a stretch to say that there are spiritual realities to “negative” things as well. One such negative thing would be idolatry, I believe. Now, I don’t think you would find any people here in the 21st Century taking off their jewelry, melting it down and forming it into a golden calf, so just what could we expect that God might consider the modern version of idolatry among some of his wayward people in the here and now?
My thoughts from a previous post…. Quote:
Believe you me brothers and sisters, there is no doubt that this is definitely a very serious and frightening matter. I don’t think anybody would say otherwise. Yet, what is the “truth as it relates to the real state of things” when it comes to this matter of the idolatry of a mere man and his so-called ministry in the Local Church? Some (many?) have stated that, to them, Witness Lee was nothing more then a “good Bible teacher”(paraphrase). Sorry, but my personal experience and close observation over the past 30+ years tells me that the vast, VAST majority of LC members view Witness Lee as something much, much more then a “Bible teacher”. I don’t think Ron Kangas was thinking of Lee as a mere Bible teacher when he proclaimed “we only accept the one minister with the one ministry for the age”. I will spare you all the many other outrageous and absurd statements made by leaders over the years that plainly and strongly indicate that there was some form of insidious idolatry taking place. Frankly, in listening to Andrew Yu and Chris Wilde kowtowing before “the Bible answer man”, and even in reading some of the posts on this very forum, there seems to be quite a bit of skirting the truth as it relates to the real state of things – at least as it relates to the past and present in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Andrew and Chris sounded somewhat frightened (in their case, frightened that Hanegraaff might actually ask them a tough question), and now some here seem frightened to admit that there was/is some form, and some level, of idolatry in the LC. Of course no current (or even former) Local Churcher wants to readily admit that such a serious deviation of truth and practice has taken place among a group of Christians, but again, to deny this is to deny the truth as it relates to the real state of things I believe. What I am talking about here is a very, very strong and pervasive dynamic (atmosphere) among a group of people. When one is immersed in such an atmosphere, it is virtually impossible for it not to affect one in many aspects of their life and even affect their relationship with God. What I am hearing from a lot of you dear brothers out there is that you think you went for a swim in the pool but didn’t get wet. Sorry, but this kind of claim certainly defies all logic and reason. Nobody here is claiming that any of you filled the pool with water, or even forced anybody to jump in. (I think we all know who did that). Let’s just not try to fool each other about what we are really dealing with here.
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 Last edited by UntoHim; 09-22-2008 at 08:42 PM. |
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09-22-2008, 09:14 PM
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#960 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I think that part of the problem we all have regarding this topic is lack of education. I doubt it's been the subject of many sermons given to believers . This may be because it isn't a worthy or applicable subject, but it could also be because we haven't seen it in His light. I think I remember WN or WL's teaching about the conscience, that it works in conjunction with its being taught or educated. It would make sense that if we don't understand what the spiritual application of idolatry is for us, that our conscience would not be able to function to convict us with clarity if we were guilty. Well, this day is over according to my clock. Until I have more time ... Thankful Jane |
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09-23-2008, 04:20 AM
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#961 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: Answering your question
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Thank you for your kind post. I appreciate this, and should extend the same apologizes to you for any offensive comment on my part. Btw, you do have some measure of stature. You are very well respected. You handled yourself quite well in that interview, I might add.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-23-2008, 04:52 AM
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#962 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Perhaps TC said it best when he testified, "I always viewed WL as a man, while the BB's viewed WL as god." Possibly the growing chasm between LSM and the many other CB's was not merely a "difference of opinion" repackaged for sale as "teaching differently," no! Maybe idolatry was in the undiscussed root of those disagreements. After all, we did get quarantined over what many thought was nonsense. I would also add that Ron Kangas doesn't necessarily speak for all the current members of the LC's. Let's differentiate between BB speakers and LC members. I know many LC folks who never make it to the feasts, and rarely hear a LSM message. They are there for various reasons, but no one would say they have idolized a man. The program just is not as homogenized as sometimes it is portrayed here. It would serve our discussion well if we substituted the BB'S for the LC's. If the BB's promote some form of idolatry, let's identify that, rather than including lots of people we may know nothing about.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-23-2008, 05:28 AM
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#963 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Re: Answering your question
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09-23-2008, 05:51 AM
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#964 | |
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I agree that blame primarily rests with the BB type leaders, but I don't think the rest of us can claim innocence because of this. The story of Ai in Joshua 7 comes to mind. When there was sin in the camp, all Israel suffered, and God seemed to consider that all the children of Israel were guilty of the sin (Josh 7:11). All Israel had to submit to examination until the source of the sin was nailed down. It appears that all witnessed the discovery and the judgment. That's more of the sense I have about all of this. The way God alerted them that there was a problem in the first place was by letting Israel be defeated before their enemies. I think we've had major clues of such defeat for many for years, but those who should have done as Joshua did and rent their clothes, hit the dust, and then tracked down the problem failed to do so: Jos 7:11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff. [italics added by me] There was only one who had brought an accursed thing into the camp, but God said "they," referring to Israel, had sinned. I offer this gently as food for thought. No hammer in hand. I'm gone for the day. TJ |
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09-23-2008, 07:02 AM
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#965 |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Re: The LCS Factor
Let me interject that some of the misunderstanding probably comes in from the manifestedly different way things were done in the GLA (where Toledo, Ohio and SC are from) and Texas (where Jane and I were from).
I've been really shocked at some of the things the GLA elders have admitted to doing. Toledo spoke of watching movies and playing chess with brothers, and removing LSM's Fermentation book from a meeting he was leading. Texas elders would have never done anything like that, especially the removing the LSM books part. So it's really foreign to me and probably to Jane to think of an LC segment which actually practiced freedom in Christ (Texas never really did, we all knew exactly what was permitted and what wasn't) and autonomy. Let me emphasize that most Texas elders would have eaten a box of broken glass before any of them would have taken any action suggesting a book put out by LSM was inappropriate. None of them played sports, watched movies, read fiction or took part in any kind of "worldly activity" except perhaps "on the sly" or when visiting family. All the members of the Texas churches were expected to behave the same way. Although there was a little sports among young brothers in the early 70s, by the late 70s all that was erased. We were expected to go to meetings, read the ministry, pray and pray-read, preach the gospel, serve, work or go to school, eat and sleep. Period. I recently asked a current Texas elder if he ever watched entertainment on the TV he admitted to owning. He said no, for fear of "replacing Christ." So you can see the strict mindset endures. So when Jane says "all," she's operating from that prism of complete order and conformity we saw in Texas. Obviously things were quite a bit different in the GLA. Both you guys and Jane need to keep this in mind when talking about "all the LCs." Obviously there are some significant differences from region to region. Last edited by Cal; 09-23-2008 at 07:22 AM. |
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09-23-2008, 07:39 AM
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#966 | |
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Location: USA
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Re: The LCS Factor
Quote:
If it is a sin to break oneness and to not submit, and it's also a sin to sue other Christians, quarantine over trivialities, or insist on one ministry, then which set of sins is worse? There's a damned if I do or don't dilemma at work. LCers are taught that almost nothing is worse than breaking oneness, or defying deputy authority. Many may recognize that sins are being committed by leadership, but do not think those sins "rise to the level" of allowing defiance or splitting away. Expecting an LCer to split from their leaders and church is like expecting a fish to breath air. It's totally against their breeding. Is that in itself idolatry? Well, I guess you could call it that. I call it an imbalanced view of leadership and oneness which is bound to eventually issue in degradation by restricting the speaking and moving of the Holy Spirit. Then again, perhaps calling it idolatry is the only way to convince people it's worse than breaking oneness. |
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09-23-2008, 10:53 AM
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: The LCS Factor
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This matter of "guilt by association" frankly scares me, and that's why I have protested repeatedly. History is replete with martyrs slain by well-intentioned religious folks who felt they were serving God. I know this seems extreme, but an O.T. story was cited which ended in holocaust. (see Joshua 7.15) The RCC has used this same story to justify their diabolical schemes via slaughter of whole villages and prison inquisitions. How far do we carry out O.T. stories? Let me propose another thought for this story, based on the patterns of the N.T. All prospering congregations of believers have healthy oversight by elders. One of their roles at times is to examine the church in prayer and fellowship and seek the Lord for any reason that they are short of the Lord's blessing. Just as Joshua sought the Lord in prayer, the Lord may wait until some do this before He exposes some matter. Our Lord has a heart of love and blessing towards His people, but neither is He mocked. The tragedy of the LC's for decades was to look to Anaheim for the way of blessing and for the reasons for which there was no blessing. This has robbed the Lord of His rightful place as the Head of the church and the Son of Man walking in her midst. Anaheim became a rival to God's own Son. The "ministry" became a rival to His word. Hence, very little blessing exists in the LC's, to the point that some would even say there is a kind of curse upon them.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-23-2008, 12:42 PM
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: The LCS Factor
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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09-23-2008, 03:12 PM
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#969 |
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Re: The LCS Factor
All,
I have been following this banter regarding idolatry in the LC with some interest and would like to offer my own opinion on the subject (as I am wont to do). First, as has been previously mentioned, I believe the major problem here is that a clear definition of "idolatry" has yet to be offered. Do the LC saints really idolize W Lee or his vision concerning the church? Or is it more a question of overexaltation,,, or hero worship,,,,, or maybe misplaced veneration? Many groups in the history of christianity have fallen into a somewhat similar pattern,,,, ie Wesley and the Methodists or Darby and the Brethren, and maybe Zinzindorf and the Moravians. To my thinking, idolatry is a serious matter that concerns our very relationship with God. The OT speaks to wood and stone; gods created by man's own hand. These are false gods,,,, representations of the gods of our imagination, our own thoughts. In today's world we are surrounded by people who have created their own "image" of God. Americans are more subtlely deceived by their christian religious traditions in that many actually hold their culture as god instead of the true God as revealed through the scriptures and in the person of Jesus Christ. The teachings of the inner-life saints, particularly in the late 1800's, brought us a more sophisticated concept concerning idolatry. I think we can realize that "images" can be held in our mind that are not according to the revealed truth of God's word. But I do think that these images must be concerning God Himself, ie His nature, His character, His love, His righteousness, etc. I do not know that we can classify over-appreciation as idolatry. On the other hand, I dont have a problem with saying that any group, including the LC, is more than likely permeated with the personality; the spirit, the thought and concepts, of any one teacher that holds a predominate position. It is inevitable. W Lee certainly believed he was creating a new culture; a new language, new traditions, new dress, etc The real question is whether this culture is the works of man's own hands, and does it really rise to the level of "idolatry". Finally, I would say that the bottom line, for me, concerning idolatry, is that it is really man worshiping himself, as Lucifer looked at himself, and he was impressed with what he saw. Pride. The perversion of God's creation. I have many opinions, but little time. May be God's mercy to you all. Much grace. Arizona |
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09-24-2008, 04:38 AM
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#970 |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
A forum reader recently wrote me this:
The fundamental problem on this thread is the definitional difference. 1. Most people understand that idolatry means the worship of idols. This is clearly idolatry by participation. It is the act of "doing" idolatry. 2. Many people are willing to extend the definition to mean the unbalanced uplifting of something above God, idol or not, within our hearts. I'm personally not so sure about this definition's utility but it is at least a common enough definition to not be outrageous. Some have pointed out the Lord's words regarding adultery and lusting in this context as proof of concept. Again, I'm not so sure. But I'd refer to this definition as idolatry by imputation. It is the act of "being accounted as" idolatry. 3. Some posters here want to extend a definition that extends even further to apply to those who are merely in association with people who are "guilty" of having committed the sin of idolatry by imputation. I'd call this idolatry by association. There is some slight ground for it. All the Israelites died in the desert, except that Joshua and Caleb didn't. They were among the idolaters but, they were not condemned as idolaters themselves. It is also important to read the entire context of Hebrews 3 and 4. The clear warning is that the believers who become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin will be excluded from the Sabbath rest. I don't think I've ever heard any of these posters arguing for this idolatry by association definition state that the problem is that you might lose the enjoyment of the kingdom reward. This is what the Bible could theoretically be extended to say. Instead, these posters are wholly focused on the present relationships between the believers and insist that if you have been guilty of consorting with those who have the idolatry by imputation, you must repent of your own idolatry by association and "turn away" from them who can be accused of idolatry by imputation. The loose and truly ignorant Bible interpretations are driving the issue. (It is just not ironic that a recent post concluded a citation with Heb. 4:11 without continuing to verse 12.) Quote: Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Since we can fall into the same example of unbelief as the children of Israel, it seems prudent that we should study and understand their failures. Regarding this quote, I'd just say, the Bible does NOT SAY that "we can fall into to the same example of unbelief" and the inability to rightly divide the Word is manifest. It does not say we can fall "into" an "example" because that doesn't even make sense. It say we can fall AFTER the example, which means, in a manner similar, not IDENTICAL, to, the example. (Not to say we can't also fall identically, but that's not what the passage discusses.) The result of such a falling is to miss God's rest. Has one of these idolatry by association advocates EVER mentioned this scriptural truth even once in ALL of this useless talk? I could have missed it, but I do not think so. It is because nothing being said is true at all. These posters have claimed again and again to only be concerned for the truth but they do not know truth a bit. Don't shoot me I'm only the messenger.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-24-2008, 05:35 AM
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#971 |
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Re: The LCS Factor
So the implication is imputed idolatry by association?
Yeah, that's pretty solid. Let's burn them all at the stake...
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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09-24-2008, 05:44 AM
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#972 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-24-2008, 09:27 AM
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#973 | |
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Location: USA
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Re: The LCS Factor
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But let's drill down on that a bit (as my pastor likes to say). LCers are expected to submit to their elders, who are expected to submit to the ministry. Let's suppose for a moment that the ministry teaches something which encourages what could be called idolatry. Now transfer that scenario to a husband and wife. The wife is expected to submit to her husband, especially as a Christian. Say this is an Asian couple, the wife is saved and the husband worships idols, statues, false gods. Now what is the wife expected to do to not partake in the husband's sins? Should she publically renounce idols? Should she remain quiet but refuse to participate in the idol worship? Should she leave her husband? What should she do? LCers believe they are for all practical purposes as closely tied to the ministry as a wife is to her husband. What should they do? As you can see, I'm still making the case of the problem being misplaced authority, not idolatry per se. Last edited by Cal; 09-24-2008 at 09:35 AM. |
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09-24-2008, 12:03 PM
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#974 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-24-2008, 06:40 PM
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#975 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I've always seen the human arrangements ordained by God as being more absolute and rigid than spritual realtionships. The very fact that Paul admonishes slaves to submit to their masters entails that submission to sovereieng human authorities is absolute, not conditioned on the "rightness" of the "master". So, the first question would be whether God-ordained human authorities are to be followed rigidly. The second question is whether spiritual authority should follow the same pattern as Ceasar, masters, parents and husbands. Witness Lee used the analogy of parents, husbands etc... as a pattern. Is that right? Peter
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I Have Finished My Course |
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09-25-2008, 04:33 AM
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#976 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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UntoHim, you parsed my post long and hard, yet I still don't see any support for the notion that TC and the GLA are all idolaters guilty by association.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-25-2008, 04:48 AM
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#977 | |
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Location: North of Mansfield Ohio
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Re: The LCS Factor
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 ) to speak.I pondered this precise thing for weeks. I did not participate in the Lee worship, and cringed when it began. I even spoke to the worst offenders. HOWEVER, I remained in fellowship with them. Does this mean that because I stayed... I participated in the deed? Am I just as guilty for not walking away? Or was I keeping the oneness of the Faith by ignoring nonsense and still remaining in fellowship? I'm not being flip...I actually talk to the Lord about this. Sue |
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09-25-2008, 05:50 AM
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#978 | |
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Posts: 688
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Re: The LCS Factor
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One time, at a training in Irving, I and another couple of brothers were instructed on how to pick up all the little bits of notebook paper that might have fallen along the pathway from brother Lee's apartment door to the podium, as a matter of service. We laughed among ourselves. We picked up paper. And we were disturbed about the veneration of this old Chinese fellow as a little Pope. Did I participate in the idolatrous worship of Lee by picking up the trash? Absolutely not. Firstly, I did it as to the Lord. Secondly, the bits of paper would eventually need to be picked up by someone, regardless of whether a Holy Man would soon pass that way or not. Thirdly, we did not have the place in that setting to explain to the leading serving one how silly he sounded in his concern that the pathway appear perfect for His Worship's passage. Finally, we realized that to the extent that there were those who may have held such a warped view, they appeared to our observation to be a distinct minority and most everyone we enjoyed fellowship with handled Christ pretty purely, at least as far as they had the light to do so. I don't doubt that I could spin this little story up into an "I will not eat meat forever" mandate if I wanted to. I could say how, upon realization that some might perceive my paper-picking-up to be the Idolatry of Lee, I should have declined to do so for his conscience's sake (not mine, of course, as Paul clearly teaches concerning idols). But we had no clear leading not to pick up paper and so, the meeting hall was cleaned at least along that pathway and we did not worship any false god while doing so. I haven't talked to those two brothers about this in all the years since. I wonder if they remember that day as well as I do...
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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09-25-2008, 06:14 AM
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#979 | |
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Member
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Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,628
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Re: The LCS Factor
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First, Paul admonishes (in Rom. 12) the believers to, "as much as you are able, be at peace with all men". As much as you are able means there are times when you can't be at peace with other folks, in spite of your best efforts. Seems to me this might be germane to obedience/ruling relationships as well. I.e, as much as you are able, be obedient. Second, the disciples of Jesus, when they ran afoul of the ruling authorities, in Acts chapter 4, for preaching the gospel of the resurrected Christ, said, "If we have to either obey God or obey men we will obey God." They were beaten and released and went right back to preaching and proclaiming, disobeying yet again the commands of the ruling authorities. And yet Peter, one of the disobedient ones, admonishes in his epistle to be obedient to secular authorities ("obey the king"). So it seems to be conditional, both ways. Our job is to discern where "obeying men", the default mode, gets overridden by the "obey God" command. Sometimes the two conflict; often they do not. Many who faithfully followed the LSM program for years bent over backward to be "one" with the ministry, and eventually it became too much. Obeying God meant saying "no" to the words of men. |
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09-25-2008, 06:33 AM
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#980 | |
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Re: The LCS Factor
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09-25-2008, 07:04 AM
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#981 | |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Re: The LCS Factor
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"Oneness" is the "Golden Rule" of LSM-LCers. But their extreme insistence on "oneness" (as defined by them) cannot be correct since it has no provision for reform. In fact it is guaranteed to squelch most genuine reform, since history has shown time and time again that most genuine reform does not come from established leaders. If you mean by "remain in fellowship" simply preserving a relationship with the believers as much as you can, I think that is proper and right. Most of us wouldn't reject fellowship with Catholics. Last edited by Cal; 09-25-2008 at 01:29 PM. Reason: readability |
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09-29-2008, 06:59 AM
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#982 | |
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Re: The LCS Factor
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For though you have ten thousand guides in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. I Corinthians 4:14, 15 I think when Paul used the example of a father to his beloved children, he was refering to his position as it relates to the Corinthian believers he has been caring for. I think he was asking them to reciprocate by obeying him as a loving father. I think in a healthy family, Pauls word can be received, for honoring the ones who brought us into this world (or into the Kingdom of God)should be respected for the advice they give. Unfortunately, ones in leadership positions may use Pauls example in a negative way, devoid of love, to force authority to a program that will not succeed except by forced adherance. Pauls thought and how God intended for families to work, is to respect the boundaries of the parent and the child, yet in love for the sake of the childs betterment, the parent offers advice to the child that will produce something good in the child. This is certianly not rigid, but intended to be carried out in a healthy environment. The rigidity you refer to in our masters, bosses or enforcement agencies over us is intended outside the family, where authority is maintained for the good of society or the company as opposed for the advancing of the generations within the family, there is the need for tighter controls or laws, that ensure the enforcement. Whether family or society, Pauls final exortation is to live before Christ as the final judge over all, for it is only before Him that we will give account for our actions and deeds. "Therefore also we are determined, whether at home or abroad, to gain the honor of being well pleasing to Him. For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ..." II Corinthians 5:9, 10a |
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09-29-2008, 08:15 AM
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#983 |
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Member
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Location: USA
Posts: 4,330
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Re: The LCS Factor
Well said, Shawn.
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10-01-2008, 05:04 AM
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#984 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-01-2008, 07:39 AM
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#985 | ||
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,793
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Re: The LCS Factor
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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10-10-2008, 09:33 AM
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Member
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Re: The LCS Factor
Dear Ohio,
Sorry for the delayed response. Quote:
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I see that some have been arguing using the phrase “guilt by association” as if I had used this phrase; however, I think that it was you introduced it. I guess you considered it was “guilt by association” when God judged the Israelites and 36 of them died in battle because of the sin of another (Achan), whom they were associated with by virtue of being part of the children of Israel. You said this idea was frightening to you. It is healthy for God’s judgment to strike a chord of fear in us. The Ai story also makes it clear that it wasn’t men on some kind of a witch hunt that found Achan, but it was God Who directed them to Achan. God is the one who pointed out the idolater. So this is not a story about man’s misjudgment, but God’s righteous actions through men who were willing to walk in the light with Him. The real judgment that the children of Israel experienced at Ai was that they were defeated by their enemies. God was not with them in battle. Why not? Because of the sin of one person among them—sin that no one apparently knew about except for God. Their defeat was His way of telling everyone something was wrong. I didn’t write this story, God did. I guess He wasn’t afraid of sobering us by it. Shouldn’t defeat by our enemies concern us? When we see the enemy prevailing, shouldn’t we humbly pray for God’s light on the situation and not start defendimg ourselves as innocent? The norm is blessing and victory, not cursing and defeat. The children of Israel were warned in advance they would lose God’s blessing if they served other gods. They were told they would experience pestilence, the sword, famine, and beasts devouring them. God told them what the loss of blessing would look like, so that they would recognize when they had offended Him. Many, many, years ago, we in the Local Churches began to suffer defeat at the hands of the devil. It has continued for decades. We lost the blessing and were put to shame repeatedly. Yet, we did nothing but press on blindly in our sin. We believed we were following God because we were absolutely following our leadership (a false belief taught by the men who were leading us), but the defeats among us were screaming otherwise. Instead of looking in the mirror, our leaders re-characterized our defeats by saying these were “attacks by the enemy.” We all nodded our heads and said “Amen.” Quote:
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The problem in the LC is that there was not healthy oversight and there was never any admission that the blessing was lost. If anyone dared suggest that this might have happened, then they and those in their tent who were targeted as the troublemakers... been there, done that... i.e., if you name a problem, you are the problem. (To me, this is similar to what has happened in the resistance shown to this topic on this thread.) Quote:
How is this different than what I said? The O.T. cursings and blessings were directly tied to God’s children having other gods. The ministry and leadership hierarchy among us took the place of God’s word and His direct headship over each of us; hence, it was another god. Some may claim now that they never submitted. I ask, then, where were their voices of objection in the past? Silence is consent. Silence is the equivalent of bowing and it produces culpability. If we saw the problem and were silent, we had part in closing the door on blessing and opening the door to cursing. We share responsibility for our being run over by every kind of evil. I believe that even now, many people ex-LSM folks still value the teachings of the ministry more than the pure Word of God. They treasure the ministry and still have it hidden under their tents. Thankful Jane |
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10-10-2008, 10:04 AM
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Re: The LCS Factor
Dear Toledo,
I am sorry for taking so long to respond to your last post. Quote:
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I sat quietly and watched at the trainings, praying I would never find myself in his gun sights. Of course, we were free to not attend—but only if we didn’t care about being “absolute” and if we didn’t mind facing the raised eyebrows of our vigilant leaders who were “watching over” the flock. On one hand, I didn’t want to come under their scrutiny, so I paid the price to go and submitted to the legitimized abuse. On the other, I also believed what I had been taught by our leaders--that God would meet us there and that WL had God’s up-to-date speaking. How could I miss out on that? Everyone else I knew who went to the trainings believed the same way. If they didn’t believe this, I never heard them say so. I assume you submitted to his training rules, which included not leaving our seats before break time. If God himself had told you to get up and go to the restroom when your bladder was bursting, would you have done so? Pardon the graphic question, but it makes the point. What kind of Christian would hold that many people in bondage to their chairs under penalty of rebuke (or a mark against you that could lead to expulsion from the training) if they had to get up and go? I knew of some who were on the verge of being violently ill from waiting for the clock to move to the position which allowed them to get out of their seat and run for the restroom. I found myself in that condition a number of times and once I was unable to get through the long restroom line before our break time was up between morning meetings, and I had to return to my chair for an additional hour of torture. This was Christian treatment? I used to hope and pray that my assigned seat would be near the restroom! I’m glad to hear that you read other materials. Did you ever share L. S. Chafer’s teachings in the meetings of the Local Church or mention him publicly (while still in an LSM church)? Quote:
Thankful Jane |
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10-10-2008, 10:47 AM
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 295
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I am planning to spend less time on the forum for awhile. During the past two weeks God has shown me that I need to redirect my focus for a period of time. I didn’t want to leave without responding about idolatry as I said I would, so here goes. I choose to use this word/concept because it is biblical, is widely used in the Bible, and because it holds the possibility of grabbing our attention. I think we are not that different from God's people who have come before us, whom He often characterized as hard of hearing. The following is my basic understanding of idolatry, as it applies to us as believers. It is not simplistic. It has come mostly from spending time with the Lord, reading His Word, and my experiences. I am not asking for, or expecting, agreement with my understanding. I share this because it has greatly helped me in my walk with Jesus and because I said I would. Maybe it will be helpful to some. “Hallowed be thy name” has new meaning for me. I see now very clearly that the law of God’s house is holiness (Eze. 43:12) and that His name is to be held in the highest regard. If I am sinful and use His name loosely, I pollute it. If I am bowing to someone else’s dictates and still using His name, I am using it in vain. The main point of what I am going to share is this: I believe that God views our deliberate obedience to voices/words/teachings other than His own as spiritual fornication. In other words, idolatry equals spiritual fornication and spiritual fornication equals idolatry. This sin began in the Garden of Eden and has continued to the present. So to be very clear, when I speak of idolatry, I am not speaking of setting up a piece of stone or wood on an altar or making some kind of molten image and then bowing down before it. I am speaking of the very large picture of idolatry which is painted in the Old Testament that I believe is for our learning as Christians. In the Bible it is clear that God considers Himself to be husband to His people. He is jealous over His relationship with us as His people and expects us likewise to cling jealously to only Him. It still holds true in the New Testament age that we are not to have other gods before Him. If I begin to practice bowing down and serving another god, which means I decide to submit to someone or something other than God Himself (even if I do so in under deception), then I am guilty of idolatry and of spiritual fornication. Rom 7 says that we become the servants of whoever we obey. According to this, if we walk in disobedience to God as a result of walking in obedience to another, we break the first commandment. You may say that idolatry only begins with commandment #2 when we fashion something with our hands which we bow down and serve. I would say that when we reach that point, we are simply manifesting evidence that we have broken commandment #1. Idolatry starts in the heart and ends up manifested in something tangible. The LSM publishing company with its fully formed idol of “One Publication” today would be an example of such a visible manifestation of idolatry. I believe that God sees having any other god as a violation of our relationship with Him in the same way that we view violation of a marriage relationship by fornication/adultery. In Jeremiah 3 God gave Israel (northern kindom) a bill of divorcement because of her adulteries. This, among other passages, shows clearly that He considered himself as the husband of the children of Israel. Strong’s says: zânâh zaw-naw' A primitive root (highly fed and therefore wanton); to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple fornication, rarely of involuntary ravishment); figuratively to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah): - (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) whore, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-whoring, whorish. In the New Testament, fornication is figuratively the same as idolatry (see Gk. for the word “fornication”). The following verses show that there is a connection between our spirit and what we do with our body. If we commit fornication, our spirit becomes defiled and filthy and we lose fellowship with God. Bowing down to another god has the same affect on our spiritual condition. God does not hold us guiltless but considers that we hate Him (commandment #2). 1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid. 1Co 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to a harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. I Cor. 6:17 with the word “joined” was used by Lee to support his “mingling” teaching and gave us the idea that this particular joining could not be undone. However, this word actually means in Gk. to glue, that is, (passively or reflexively) to stick (figuratively): - cleave, join (self), keep company. In the O. T. the corresponding word was “cleave” as in “cleave unto Him” (meaning cling or adhere to Him). I Co. 6:17 can more rightly be understood to mean that he that is adhered to or glued to the Lord is one spirit. We can become dirty and lose our adherence to Him. Just as in a marriage the relationship (joining) can be broken (put asunder) by unfaithfulness, so can we become separated experientially from our relationship with the Lord. Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder [separate]. This warning shows that what God joins together can be put asunder. A similar thought is found in the following verse. It shows how God views Christ’s relationship with us. He is adhering to us and gluing Himself to us. We are to respond in kind and cling to Him. Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined [Gk: proskollao – to glue to; to adhere to] unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Christ died for us so that we could have spiritual communication/fellowship with God in a state of holiness which became ours by faith in the redemptive work of Jesus Christ. This intimate relationship between Christ and the church is a great mystery. Whenever, as Christians, we become contaminated by fornication (or by idolatry, obeying commands of others that bring us into disobedience to God), we lose fellowship with the holy God. He does not stop loving us, and works to bring us to repentance. If we exercise our spirit to pray while we are in an unrepentant state, we will not contact the holy God, and we can be snared into spiritual communication with the devil and fall prey to his wiles. The Bible makes it clear that we cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of devils. 1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. Paul said that as believers we were espoused to one husband, Jesus Christ. He feared that we would be seduced. 2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled [seduced] Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. The first seduction took place in the garden of Eden. It took place through the mind becoming corrupted by means of listening to the deceiving words of someone other than God. Paul realized that seduction of believers came through the words of men who appeared to be apostles of Christ and ministers of righteousness. Just as Satan came in the garden of Eden as one bearing “light,” and corrupted Eve’s mind by communicating with her, he continues to do the same thing today. He best accomplishes this objective in a systematic way through the teachings of those who appear to be ministers of righteousness, but who are actually not. 2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. 2Co 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming [fashioning] themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. Jesus told us repeatedly to keep his words, his commandments. He promised us that if we did this He and the Father would come and make their home with us. If, instead, we keep the words of others which lead us into disobedience to God’s words, we are allowing someone else to interfere in our new covenant relationship with God. I believe that God sees this kind of violation as seduction or fornication or idolatry. Eph 5:6 (CLV) Let no one be seducing you through empty words because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness. The New Covenant relationship is one of intimacy between God and each believer. It is far superior to the Old Covenant relationship between God and the children of Israel as shown in Hebrews. In the New Covenant, there is one mediator between us and God, Jesus, and no one should supersede His place in each of our lives or come between us and Him in any way. We have been betrothed to Him. Paul makes it clear that such superseding can take place through “words” or teachings spoken by others in order to seduce us away from the personal, intimate relationship we have with God as our God. (Only as we have an intimate relationship with Him first and foremost can we have a close, intimate, fellowship with one another in the church.) 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. Note that men who give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils speak lies as if they were truth (in hypocrisy). They have seared consciences. They lord it over people and use assumed “authority” in their teachings to control others (note that the words “forbidding” and “commanding” describe an exercise of “authority”). This is all too familiar. In Revelation 17, the woman sitting on the scarlet colored beast having seven heads and ten horns is called “Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of the harlots [Gk: idolaters] and abominations [idolatries] of the Earth.” The kingdoms of the earth commit fornication with her. This shows that God considers such fornications to be more than something physical between human beings. There are spiritual fornications between the great woman and the evil world rulers. It is clear that the RCC today matches this woman, as do all religious systems (her daughters) who are like her. There are many who are not literally bowing down to stone or wooden idols, yet they are practicing idolatry by walking stubbornly in disobedience to Him and His Word and at the same time using His name. They inadvertently become involved with evil spiritual powers while praying and vainly using the name of Jesus. They become involved with another Jesus, another spirit. This is a brief overview of what I believe. I think it is much safer to consider that the warnings of the O.T. concerning serving other gods have applicability to us and not just dismiss them as only referring to pagans who bow to blocks of wood or stone. I have been convicted that God is a jealous God and that He is jealous over my New Covenant relationship with Him. I am to be likewise jealous over my relationship with Him and to remain faithful to Him. I am not to let others interfere with that most intimate and precious relationship for any reason. Today, just as in Paul’s day, there are men who come as Christian leaders and fashion themselves as ones sent by God bearing light. They use their “light” to impress, attract, and seduce people to come under their control. They usurp the role of God in their involvement with other believers. They expect submission to their words, teachings, and instructions and believe this is their God-given prerogative. This phenomenon among believers is nothing less than the mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) that was already at work in Paul’s day. We should flee from such people. We are the bride of Christ, espoused to him as a chaste virgin. We are to guard our relationship with Him jealously as we look to His soon coming. The Bible says that what God has joined together (yoked together) let no man separate. I have been set free to treasure Jesus and His Words and to reject the subtle, deceiving words of men. I do not have to give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons that come through men, “commanding” and “forbidding” and expecting me to obey their “authoritative” interpretations, teachings, and instructions. I have given some thought to the repeated accusation on this thread that I believe “all” in the Local Churches are guilty of idolatry. No one has yet shown me where I said this. I have decided to make this very plain: I do not know who is guilty. That is something each person must determine for themselves. But, sadly, most in the LC don’t even know to ask the question. It is for that reason that I have spoken so strongly. I want to provoke those who read here to think seriously about this. The simple truth is that it really doesn’t matter what I think or you or anyone else thinks about idolatry. What matters is what is true and what He judges to be the case. Shouldn't we ask something like this: "Lord, how do You view my relationship with You? Am I holding to or adhering to beliefs and practices which I received from other men that bring me into conflict with You? I am asking You to shine Your light on me and show me my case in your eyes so I can repent and be set free from anything that offends you, hurts my relationship with You, and hinders my prayers and effectiveness as a believer." Also, if other men support us financially in our service to God, wouldn't it be wise to consider praying something to this effect: "Lord, please judge me in the matter of money, especially as it relates to my serving You. I do not want to be found at Your coming to have been serving another master out of fear of my and my family’s needs not being met." We are called to submit first and foremost to God and to look to Him for everything. We are expected to give way or yield to one another when truth or principle is not at stake. Where it is, our submission not only hurts us, it hurts others. As believers we need to recognize the difference between submitting to God and to something that appears to be of God. The line drawn is determined by the Holy Word understood under the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. If the living One and the living Book forbid something, I must not do it, regardless of what any “minister of righteousness” says. For this reason, I am responsible to know the Words of God and also to learn for myself to hear the Spirit speak. I will be without excuse in that day because as a participant in the wonderful New Covenant relationship with God which is mine by His amazing grace, I have been given His words to treasure, and I have been given His Holy Spirit to write them on my heart. Thankful Jane |
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10-10-2008, 10:32 PM
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#989 | |
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I Have Finished My Course
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Avon, OH
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Re: The LCS Factor
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P.S. I admit that I had no problem being "that guy" - but no one gave be grief over it (except all the folks I had to scootch past to get to the aisle to leave...).
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10-11-2008, 04:50 AM
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#990 | |
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17 |
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10-11-2008, 06:45 AM
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#991 |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
Dear Ohio, Sorry for the delayed response.
Thankful Jane, apologies accepted. What? I don’t see “godly fellowship with the offender” in Corinthians. (Which verses show this?) I just see that he was put away from fellowship by the majority. I also see that Paul delivered him to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit could be saved in the day of Christ Jesus. I guess you could call that “godly fellowship” if you wanted to do so. He did repent, but it took a lot more than some kind of conversation with him. Gal 6.1, Brothers, even if a man is overtaken in some offense, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness." We also know that the brother was repentant and Paul encouraged the Corinthians in his second letter to restore the brother and to "confirm your love to him." 2 Cor 2.1-11 I encourage you to read these verses. They are the "flip side" of the verse "purge out the old leaven." TJ, it's sad that the Texas brothers never presented a pattern of "godly fellowship" to the flock. Instead they have only presented a rotten example of ruthless humiliations and quarantines. I see that some have been arguing using the phrase “guilt by association” as if I had used this phrase; however, I think that it was you introduced it. I guess you considered it was “guilt by association” when God judged the Israelites and 36 of them died in battle because of the sin of another (Achan), whom they were associated with by virtue of being part of the children of Israel. You said this idea was frightening to you. It is healthy for God’s judgment to strike a chord of fear in us. The Ai story also makes it clear that it wasn’t men on some kind of a witch hunt that found Achan, but it was God Who directed them to Achan. God is the one who pointed out the idolater. So this is not a story about man’s misjudgment, but God’s righteous actions through men who were willing to walk in the light with Him. I may have introduced this specific phrase, or its alternate "broad brush," but it was not me who said, "Then I don't think you have gotten it yet. Everyone was brought into the idolatry (me included). All you have to do is study history (including the history of Israel) to see that it is not just the leaders who are held responsible. The whole congregation is held responsible." Other things have been said that lumps all together as idolators. This is what I have protested. The real judgment that the children of Israel experienced at Ai was that they were defeated by their enemies. God was not with them in battle. Why not? Because of the sin of one person among them—sin that no one apparently knew about except for God. Their defeat was His way of telling everyone something was wrong. I didn’t write this story, God did. I guess He wasn’t afraid of sobering us by it. Not all Israel suffered discipline at Ai. 2 or 3 thousand were sent to fight by Joshua, and only 36 were smitten. Let me suggest that the real reason that they lost the battle was they didn't seek the Lord first. There were other times this also happened -- when the enemies disguised themselves, for example. After they lost that skirmish, then did seek the Lord and the "accursed thing" was exposed. God often uses our failures to bring us seeking to Himself, not with the goal of judging us, or worse -- judging us all. Shouldn’t defeat by our enemies concern us? When we see the enemy prevailing, shouldn’t we humbly pray for God’s light on the situation and not start defending ourselves as innocent? The norm is blessing and victory, not cursing and defeat. The children of Israel were warned in advance they would lose God’s blessing if they served other gods. They were told they would experience pestilence, the sword, famine, and beasts devouring them. God told them what the loss of blessing would look like, so that they would recognize when they had offended Him. Yes, a hearty Amen, we should humbly pray. But ... we should ask what is on the Lord's heart, and not assume that others are guilty of idolatry. Also, the age has changed. This is the church age, the age of grace. I am not judged just for being part of the LC's based on something done at a publishing house in Calfornia.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-11-2008, 02:42 PM
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#992 | ||
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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If I "listen" to the "voices and commands" of others who are elders and ministers, then have I become an idolator? I don't think so. Since when is to "listen to" the same as to "bow down to?" What scripture supports that? I have protested every such assertion on this thread. Don't you think if there was, "at least a possibility that God might consider our behavior (bowing to others voices and commands) to be idolatrous," He would tell us in plain words?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-11-2008, 07:03 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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10-11-2008, 07:28 PM
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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10-12-2008, 04:07 AM
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#995 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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Many, many times the ministry informed us of how bad, careless, and irresponsible we all were -- thus we needed "training." That was one thing we could never get enough of! The need for training was often just a "disguise" for legalism to invade the churchlife. Oftentimes, this legalism became sanctioned "abuse". Each one begins to apply standards to others which were drilled into them. Sensitivity to others' needs is overridden by rules and regulations ... and a general callousness to God's needy people. These changes went into overdrive at LSM during the mid-80's, and many churches were adversely affected. Obviously, via the many testimonies I have read on these forums, the Texas brand of legalism was especially obnoxious. Though all attendants received the same regulations at the LSM trainings, it was the reinforcement of those regulations by certain leaders back in Texas, which made those rules so repugnant. Personally, even I were chief training usher, I could never forbid a sister in need. Legalism has always been a killer of God's people. The Pharisees used it and the Lord rebuked them and exposed them. Paul fought its effects. But ... whether we are discussing legalism, or abuse, or wrong submissions, or a host of other issues in the LC, all of them together do not rise to the standard of idolatry. Like I was taught in Catholic school -- a million "venial" sins do not make a single "mortal" sin.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-12-2008, 04:53 AM
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#996 | |||
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: The LCS Factor
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But ... your reference to the resistance to the topic of idolatry on this thread has no merit. .................................................. .................................................. Originally Posted by Ohio:  The tragedy of the LC's for decades was to look to Anaheim for the way of blessing and for the reasons for which there was no blessing. This has robbed the Lord of His rightful place as the Head of the church and the Son of Man walking in her midst. Anaheim became a rival to God's own Son. The "ministry" became a rival to His word. Hence, very little blessing exists in the LC's, to the point that some would even say there is a kind of curse upon them. Quote:
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In conclusion, I can not say it any better than ol' brother Toledo: "I both respect and appreciate your beliefs. I do not agree with you, but it is obvious that you have spent much time before the Lord in prayer, and much time searching through the bible. I do not agree with your interpretation of the scriptures -- you add a lot to the plain word of the bible. However, I respect your right to do so. Our oneness is based upon the Spirit and the divine life that we share, not upon our doctrinal agreement."
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-13-2008, 09:49 AM
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#997 | |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: The LCS Factor
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If God wanted to say a few plain words to you/us about idolatry, how would He do it? Is it possible that the Lord has been speaking to you/us through Matt and Jane on this topic? Is it possible that resistance to this topic has drowned out His plain words? Nell |
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10-13-2008, 11:24 AM
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#998 | |
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Re: The LCS Factor
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"Unless I am convinced by the testimony of the Holy Scriptures or by evident reason—for I can believe neither pope nor councils alone, as it is clear that they have erred repeatedly and contradicted themselves—I consider myself convicted by the testimony of Holy Scripture, which is my basis; my conscience is captive to the Word of God. Thus I cannot and will not recant, because acting against one's conscience is neither safe nor sound. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen." ~ Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms The "resistance to this topic" has been because : 1) the case for the sort of idolatry TJ and Matt have insisted upon has not been shown through the testimony of the Holy Scriptures, and 2) even less has it been shown that everyone who ever met with the local churches is guilty.
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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10-13-2008, 01:58 PM
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#999 |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: The LCS Factor
Toledo,
I'm just asking questions. Nell |
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10-13-2008, 02:22 PM
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#1000 | |
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I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Toledo
Posts: 85
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Re: The LCS Factor
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I am willing and open to being corrected (after all -- I've been wrong a lot!). I'm just not ready to accept a quick and easy answer. I want to see what the bible has to say ... about so many things!
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Toledo Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. |
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