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Old 03-17-2014, 07:47 AM   #1
Elden1971
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Default Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

Since I am a very slow typist I encourage anyone that desires fellowship to email me at therisenhoovers@gmail.com or send me a Private Message and I will give you further personal contact information.

My walk with the Lord began 60 years ago in Okemah Oklahoma where I experienced my first church split due to the pastor involving the members in a business that failed. Twenty years later that experience and others would keep me from involvement in the Daystar tragedy at Elden Hall. It has been erroneously reported on this forum and others that I was the accountant for Daystar. I was the accountant for many investors in Daystar and a Business Consultant to several Brothers. I was employed as an Accountant for the Los Angeles County Government and responsible for the Payroll Clearance Fund and the Joint Power Authorities. I later had increased responsibilities in Budget Report and Data Processing Departments where I created the Billing Algorithms for all 77 Departments. I also worked part time as the Controller for the Beverly College of Law and a Bar Review Course and also worked as a Business Consultant and Tax Preparer for many Brothers including Bro.Lee and Francis Ball. I can confirm that those involved in Daystar violated Federal and State Securities Law and Federal money laundering statutes. The son of one of the sisters that invested in Daystar was and still is an attorney now living in DC who advised the brothers and me of their illegal activities. Prior to the Daystar tragedy my experience at Elden Hall was one of the best times of my Life.

Our journey to Elden Hall was quite remarkable and quite sudden. After graduating from the University of Oklahoma I was on staff of the largest and fastest growing church in Oklahoma and the Lord was using my wife and I to lead several people to the Lord. We became aware of a pastor in South Dakota who had suffered a heart attack and I felt lead to go visit him and while with him the Lord made it clear we were to move to South Dakota and I would pastor his church while he recovered and we would start a student work at the University. We loaded our 3 young sons and moved to South Dakota and one of the first couples we met was the sister and brother in law of Dan Towle. A few weeks later they received the stream magazines with messages on Ezra and Nehemiah and gave them to us and after my wife Nancy and the boys were asleep I sat and read the messages. Upon completion I consecrated myself afresh to the Lord and had the clear speaking " GO TO L.A." I went in and woke up Nancy and told her the Lord just told me we were to go to LA and she simply said " Amen" and got up and started packing. The next morning we received a check in the mail for $100 designated to be used as the Lord leads so we had the funds for the trip. We put a few belongings in the station wagon and with our 3 young sons drove non stop for 17 hours arriving in LA about 2 am and stopped first at Elden Hall and then drove around the corner to Dan and Marilyns apartment where I knocked on the door and was greeted with Praise the Lord and we rejoiced in the Lord. The next day we moved into Magnolia House with Don and Karen Martin, Francis Ball, Thomas Quay and Don Hardy. Such began our 7 years in the Local Church .

From Hall 1 at Elden we would later go to South Pasadena Hall 4 and North Hollywood Hall 6 adding another son and daughter in the process and then we were the first to move to Anaheim shortly to be followed by Bro Lee who moved just down the street. We were blessed with one more son in Anaheim. Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. This Thursday Nancy and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. We are blessed with 17 grandchildren. We look forward to hearing from old friends and making new ones. We have prayed for the leaders of the LC and will continue to do so. We are grateful that the Lord led us to LA and we are grateful that we got out when we did. There is so much we can share of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is our Life and we gather around Him in our home. He chose us before the foundation of the earth and we are complete IN HIM!

Terry and Nancy Risenhoover

Last edited by Elden1971; 03-17-2014 at 07:55 AM. Reason: add personal info
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Old 03-17-2014, 10:38 AM   #2
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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Twenty years later that experience and others would keep me from involvement in the Daystar tragedy at Elden Hall. It has been erroneously reported on this forum and others that I was the accountant for Daystar. I was the accountant for many investors in Daystar and a Business Consultant to several Brothers. ... and also worked as a Business Consultant and Tax Preparer for many Brothers including Bro.Lee and Francis Ball. I can confirm that those involved in Daystar violated Federal and State Securities Law and Federal money laundering statutes. The son of one of the sisters that invested in Daystar was and still is an attorney now living in DC who advised the brothers and me of their illegal activities. Prior to the Daystar tragedy my experience at Elden Hall was one of the best times of my Life.
Brother Terry,

Welcome to the Forum. I was active in the LC's from the mid-70's to the mid-00's. It was the impending quarantines by the Blended Brothers in Anaheim and local conflicts which caused me to step away and study the Recovery from a distance. At that time the gnawing question in my mind could be summarized: "How could something so good become so bad?"

Thanks for clearing up the error about being your being Daystar's tax accountant. Can you confirm that Don Hardy was an officer for Daystar? Can you also confirm that Witness Lee, and others like Francis Ball, knew that laws were being broken, and were properly informed beforehand.

We have had lengthy threads concerning the events surrounding Daystar. Please correct any other issues which might have been wrongly posted.
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:32 PM   #3
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Brother Terry,

Welcome to the Forum. I was active in the LC's from the mid-70's to the mid-00's. It was the impending quarantines by the Blended Brothers in Anaheim and local conflicts which caused me to step away and study the Recovery from a distance. At that time the gnawing question in my mind could be summarized: "How could something so good become so bad?"

Thanks for clearing up the error about being your being Daystar's tax accountant. Can you confirm that Don Hardy was an officer for Daystar? Can you also confirm that Witness Lee, and others like Francis Ball, knew that laws were being broken, and were properly informed beforehand.

We have had lengthy threads concerning the events surrounding Daystar. Please correct any other issues which might have been wrongly posted.
Brother Lee took serious advantage of Francis and put him at serious risk. I was close friends with Francis and his wife Martha lived with us briefly before they married. Francis would and did do anything Bro. Lee asked. When I explained the potential liability to Francis he was shocked and terrified. I was greatly relieved when the statute of limitations expired as Francis would have faced serious criminal and civil consequences.

Don Hardy was shocked when he discovered Phillip Lee was "cooking the books" in other words maintaining two sets of books. Don was outraged and resigned as an officer. Bro. Lee was himself an accountant and had to be complicit with Phillip as he personally funneled money through Francis and others. I have direct proof of this as I prepared the tax returns for Francis and heard first hand from him that Bro. Lee gave him the funds and told him what to do with them and of course I saw the actual bank statements.

Brother Lee and others were advised by Benton Fonner of the illegal and fraudulent nature of the Daystar offering. Daystar was the pivotal turning point for Brother Lee and Phillip and Timothy in the US. It is well documented of their previous business failings in Taiwan and the Phillipines. Bro. Lee came to me in Anaheim asking for Business advice as I had successfully invested for 39 Chinese clients in Taipei, Tainan and Brazil as well as Anaheim and had gained their trust and respect. I later traveled to Taiwan to meet personally with two brothers in Taipei and the other in Tainan. One of my sons has lived in Taiwan for 6 years and two years in China. I visited Beijing for 3 weeks about 3 years ago. I have been retired for 7 years and have no interest in discussing Daystar except to set the record straight. I knew personally all the major players and most of the investors and can say in summary that it was a disaster.

I have spent the last 25 years reviewing all the Brethren literature at www.stempublishing.com and my wife and I have assisted the T. Austin Sparks book ministry out of Tulsa. We know the sister who set up and operates www.austin-sparks.net out of New Zealand. Her personal site is www.unveiling.org
We are currently working with indigenous Christian workers in Kenya and Bangladesh and my websites are www.pamojacenter.com and [URL="http://www.riseupkenya.com"]www.riseupkenya.com
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Old 03-17-2014, 02:00 PM   #4
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:19 PM   #5
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Brother Terry,

Witness Lee frequently talked about the "glorious blessing" of the Lord poured out on Elden Hall in those early days. He stated that the source of that blessing was his own ministry and because the saints were "absolutely one" with him.

Was that really true?

The message throughout the 80's "New Way" period of time to us was that the Lord would not bless us again like He did at Elden hall until all the LC's were "one with the ministry."
Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry. I personally was contacted recently by a Brother that I brought to a Love Feast and during the singing I saw him born again. I had not heard from him in almost 40 years and he is still in the LC. Bro. Lee was almost non-existent in the meetings. Also the book room carried the Darby Bible, Andrew Murray, William Law, Hudson Taylor, CHM, Stephen Kaung, The Spirit of Christ by Murray was highly praised as was The Holiest of All. We were encouraged to read these and others and testimonies frequently quoted these and others to resounding Amens. Nee openly acknowledged his debt to the Brethren and others in the orthodoxy of the church and Lee also said he had nothing original but stood on the shoulders of others as well. Nothing exclusive was present until after Daystar. Daystar changed everything. Ironside said it best of the Brethren " They rightly divide the truth and wrongly divide themselves" After studying the Brethren literature for 25 years I see how much Nee and Lee "borrowed from them" unfortunately they followed the eschatology of Govett and panton which M E Barber brought to Nee as well as Penn Lewis who ironically Lee warned us against. Lee also "borrowed" the economy of God from Sparks conference in Taipei on The Stewardship of the Mystery" (available at www.austin-sparks.net
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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Nothing could be further from the truth. It was the gospel that was prevailing and the Spirit convicted people during the Love Feasts on Saturday nights where we primarily sang and testified of the gospel of the glory of Christ. Christ was the center and not the ministry.
Thanks Elden1971

Another brother, Don Hose, a.k.a. poster hosepipe, has posted similar reports of those days in Elden Hall.

Another brother Don Rutledge, a.k.a. poster Hope, has also posted that during the first Elders and Workers Gathering in January 1974, Witness Lee brought sweeping changes into the recovery, rapidly bringing the blessing to an end. Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

You mentioned Brethren history. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me the interest to study their first split, with the excommunications of Newton and Muller. I became convinced that the motive for Darby's actions were his ambitions to be the sole leader of the movement. Likewise, the horrific splits and lawsuits that were about to occur in the Great Lakes Area were all due to a power struggle between Titus Chu and leading Blendeds.
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Old 03-17-2014, 08:15 PM   #7
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Don Hose and his family lived in the same duplex with us and I just renewed contact with him today thanks to Harold.
With all due respect to Hope Elden did not grow stale but angry and disappointed.
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Old 03-17-2014, 08:43 PM   #8
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Thanks Elden1971

Another brother, Don Hose, a.k.a. poster hosepipe, has posted similar reports of those days in Elden Hall.

Another brother Don Rutledge, a.k.a. poster Hope, has also posted that during the first Elders and Workers Gathering in January 1974, Witness Lee brought sweeping changes into the recovery, rapidly bringing the blessing to an end. Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.

You mentioned Brethren history. About 10 years ago, the Lord gave me the interest to study their first split, with the excommunications of Newton and Muller. I became convinced that the motive for Darby's actions were his ambitions to be the sole leader of the movement. Likewise, the horrific splits and lawsuits that were about to occur in the Great Lakes Area were all due to a power struggle between Titus Chu and leading Blendeds.
https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...volume-12/love

I find the ministry of J B Stoney to be a real blessing.
I do not agree with your conclusion regarding Darby. If you examined more deeply you would reach the same conclusion. I do understand how you could draw that conclusion as I felt the same way initially but after years of reading hundreds of sources I have great respect and appreciation for Darby's ministry and manner of living. Certainly he was not without flaws but was greatly used in many different countries.
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:12 AM   #9
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...volume-12/love

I find the ministry of J B Stoney to be a real blessing.
I do not agree with your conclusion regarding Darby. If you examined more deeply you would reach the same conclusion. I do understand how you could draw that conclusion as I felt the same way initially but after years of reading hundreds of sources I have great respect and appreciation for Darby's ministry and manner of living. Certainly he was not without flaws but was greatly used in many different countries.
I'm not saying that Darby was not a gifted minister who led a strict life, but how could his actions in Plymouth and Bristol ever be justified?

WL also led a strict and moral life above reproach, as many would testify on his behalf, yet look at how he treated other brothers.
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:13 AM   #10
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Don Hose and his family lived in the same duplex with us and I just renewed contact with him today thanks to Harold.
With all due respect to Hope Elden did not grow stale but angry and disappointed.
What do you mean angry?
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:16 AM   #11
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What do you mean angry?
Righteous indignation at the evil we had seen.
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:23 AM   #12
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Righteous indignation at the evil we had seen.
So how much credit would you give Lee for the blessing in Elden Hall, and how much of the anger would you ascribe to Lee?
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Old 03-18-2014, 08:42 AM   #13
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Daystar was the pivotal turning point for Brother Lee and Phillip and Timothy in the US. It is well documented of their previous business failings in Taiwan and the Phillipines.
Elden1971,

In the greater Ohio area, only whispers of Daystar were mentioned behind closed doors. We often heard how Titus Chu shielded us from things which happened in SoCal, and we were never given the impression that Witness Lee and sons bore any responsibility, rather the blame should fall on "those who left."

Obviously Titus Chu knew of the rotten side of Lee and Sons church business ventures, since nearly no brother from here was cheated by Daystar. TC obviously knew of their previous failings in Taiwan. He probably blamed the sons in order to maintain his pristine image of Lee.

You say "well documented" but actually very little is known on this forum. We have heard that the church in Taipei rejected Lee because he sold church property owned by Hall #1 to pay off a bad personal debt. Chinese saints, like Samuel Chang, who came to the USA said very little about this part of Lee's history, which opened the door wide open for American saints to be swindled.
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Old 03-18-2014, 10:34 AM   #14
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

Thank you for your firsthand report, Terry. This information is very convincing.

If the Internet had been around in the 1960s, Witness Lee would have never gotten off the ground in America. The dirt would have leaked out and been impossible to ignore.
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Old 03-18-2014, 11:38 AM   #15
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So how much credit would you give Lee for the blessing in Elden Hall, and how much of the anger would you ascribe to Lee?
I give God all the glory and God alone. Lee was embarrassed and humiliated by the Daystar failure because this was to be the means of financing the migrations and of course helping his sons. Certainly Phillip and Timothy benefited but everyone else lost and then Lee faced serious legal consequences so he felt he had to raise the money to repay those saints that were hurt the most financially. Thus the "training fees" and exclusive book sales commenced and sadly have never stopped.
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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Our journey to Elden Hall was quite remarkable and quite sudden. After graduating from the University of Oklahoma I was on staff of the largest and fastest growing church in Oklahoma and the Lord was using my wife and I to lead several people to the Lord. We became aware of a pastor in South Dakota who had suffered a heart attack and I felt lead to go visit him and while with him the Lord made it clear we were to move to South Dakota and I would pastor his church while he recovered and we would start a student work at the University. We loaded our 3 young sons and moved to South Dakota and one of the first couples we met was the sister and brother in law of Dan Towle. A few weeks later they received the stream magazines with messages on Ezra and Nehemiah and gave them to us and after my wife Nancy and the boys were asleep I sat and read the messages. Upon completion I consecrated myself afresh to the Lord and had the clear speaking " GO TO L.A." I went in and woke up Nancy and told her the Lord just told me we were to go to LA and she simply said " Amen" and got up and started packing. The next morning we received a check in the mail for $100 designated to be used as the Lord leads so we had the funds for the trip. We put a few belongings in the station wagon and with our 3 young sons drove non stop for 17 hours arriving in LA about 2 am and stopped first at Elden Hall and then drove around the corner to Dan and Marilyns apartment where I knocked on the door and was greeted with Praise the Lord and we rejoiced in the Lord. The next day we moved into Magnolia House with Don and Karen Martin, Francis Ball, Thomas Quay and Don Hardy. Such began our 7 years in the Local Church . From Hall 1 at Elden we would later go to South Pasadena Hall 4 and North Hollywood Hall 6 adding another son and daughter in the process and then we were the first to move to Anaheim shortly to be followed by Bro Lee who moved just down the street. We were blessed with one more son in Anaheim. Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. This Thursday Nancy and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. We are blessed with 17 grandchildren. We look forward to hearing from old friends and making new ones. We have prayed for the leaders of the LC and will continue to do so. We are grateful that the Lord led us to LA and we are grateful that we got out when we did. There is so much we can share of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is our Life and we gather around Him in our home. He chose us before the foundation of the earth and we are complete IN HIM! Terry and Nancy Risenhoover
Welcome to the forum Terry. Appears your move to Elden was near the same time when my parents move to LA from SW Washington via Henderson, NV (when the late Cliff Skoglund encouraged my parents to move LA). I was quite young so my memories of that era are faint.
As much as some of us appreciated our time in the local churches, it is not the culmination of our Christian living. Simply one passage through our Christian life.
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:26 PM   #17
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Welcome to the forum Terry. Appears your move to Elden was near the same time when my parents move to LA from SW Washington via Henderson, NV (when the late Cliff Skoglund encouraged my parents to move LA). I was quite young so my memories of that era are faint.
As much as some of us appreciated our time in the local churches, it is not the culmination of our Christian living. Simply one passage through our Christian life.
Terry
I think I am most grateful for the lifelong friendships that were established at Elden. It is interesting to note that 4 of the 5 elders eventually left or were forced out and over 75% of those at Elden eventually left.
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Old 03-18-2014, 02:04 PM   #18
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I'm not saying that Darby was not a gifted minister who led a strict life, but how could his actions in Plymouth and Bristol ever be justified?

WL also led a strict and moral life above reproach, as many would testify on his behalf, yet look at how he treated other brothers.
Plymouth was justified due to heresy, but Bristol was not and it was one of Darby's regrets. Due to the cover up of gross immorality one must question Lee's morality. Also are we not admonished not to associate with fornicators. There is none righteous no not one. We will all stand before the judgment seat.
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Old 03-18-2014, 02:42 PM   #19
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I think I am most grateful for the lifelong friendships that were established at Elden. It is interesting to note that 4 of the 5 elders eventually left or were forced out and over 75% of those at Elden eventually left.
How in the world could Lee continue to promote the "Good Old Days" at Elden Hall when 3/4ths of those saints departed out of protest?

When it comes to church history in general or Recovery history in particular, Witness Lee just has no credibility whatsoever. He has distorted and twisted every event into some self-serving tale of modern mythology.
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Old 03-18-2014, 03:11 PM   #20
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Plymouth was justified due to heresy, but Bristol was not and it was one of Darby's regrets. Due to the cover up of gross immorality one must question Lee's morality. Also are we not admonished not to associate with fornicators. There is none righteous no not one. We will all stand before the judgment seat.
Concerning the "heresy" of Newton at Plymouth being justified, I have to disagree. Newton's writings, taken as they are, are well within the boundaries of orthodoxy. It was Darby's misreading, adding in excessive doses of his own dramatic hyperbole, which incited unnecessary alarm within the Plymouth saints.

Elden1971, are you aware of the following events?

During Darby's lengthy stay in Plymouth, due to the sheer weight of his own character, slowly many of the leading brothers in that church were turned against Newton in favor of Darby, Wigram and the exclusives. Nearly two decades later, by 1866, some of these learned men of God, primarily William H. Dorman, began to study in-depth the teachings of Darby concerning the humanity of Jesus our Savior under the "federal headship of Adam." Their exhaustive study of Darby's teachings convinced them that his teaching in substance was identical to Newton's in Plymouth back in the 1840's.

With W.H. Dorman, were other renowned Brethren formerly of Plymouth, namely Captain Percy Hall, Joseph Stancomb, and Thomas Newberry (The Englishman's Bible.) Since Darby and his supporters on Park Ave. in London refused to entertain the notion, nor even consider their research, these brothers could no longer bear the hypocrisy, and parted ways with Darby.
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Old 03-18-2014, 04:18 PM   #21
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Hope also testified that Elden Hall grew stale, and thus Lee needed a new start in Anaheim.
I don't remember the details now. I wonder if Don was commenting from his own observation or from the word he and/or other edlers got from Lee in those early elders meetings.
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Old 03-18-2014, 05:42 PM   #22
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I don't remember the details now. I wonder if Don was commenting from his own observation or from the word he and/or other edlers got from Lee in those early elders meetings.
In his account, Don Rutledge wrote this ...

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Life Ebbs at Elden
An interesting thing occurred in Elden hall which now was one of four halls in Los Angeles. Witness Lee and John Ingalls had stayed there. Up until then, many had equated the blessing on Elden with having the ministry of Witness Lee and to a lesser extent the ministry of John Ingalls. By early 1973 I began to hear of the staleness and flatness of the Elden hall church meetings. I visited there and frankly most of the new churches were much more on fire and lively in Christ than Elden was. Elden still had the ministry, but it was clear the blessing was not there. I heard Witness Lee state on many occasions that he needed to leave Elden, and that the Lord needed a new start with his ministry.

Eventually in 1974, Elden Hall was given up. The remaining saints in Elden moved to the city of Rosemead, and Witness Lee, John Ingalls, Max Rapaport and a few hundred others moved to Anaheim.

Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit. In 1975, we were having a conference in Dallas. Before the meetings, we would pray in the large home on our property and then would walk across the parking lot to the large new hall we had just built. One evening I was walking with Brother Lee. He stopped, turned to me and then put his arm around my shoulder. (Never before and never since have I seen him embrace a brother. Thus, I realized he was about to tell me something very serious. He told me that he had made a terrible mistake with Daystar. He said that if he saw Brother Nee he would not know what to say since Brother Nee had warned him not to mix the church with financial matters or business. He then told me that he had once told Watchman Nee that he was not following him (Watchman Nee), but rather was following the truth and vision that Brother Nee taught. Furthermore, that he (Witness Lee) would not follow Watchman Nee if Brother Nee left the vision, but he (Brother Lee) would continue to follow the vision. He then looked me straight in the eye and charged me, “Brother Don, if I leave the vision do not follow me, but follow the vision.” I was a little speechless but I did manage to return the embrace and assure Brother Lee that I would remain true to the vision and the
truth.

Daystar
Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.

Shortly after this meeting, Witness Lee was scheduled to come to Houston for a conference in late 1972. I planned to attend. By that time I had left teaching for a sales job. The night before the conference I had a dream. I was sitting in the living room of Ben McPherson in Houston with Witness Lee. The other brothers in the room were very clear to me, as was where they were sitting. Suddenly, Witness Lee turned to me and said he wanted me to work for him in Daystar. In the dream, the Lord made it very clear I was not to take the offer. The next night there we all were, sitting in exactly the right seats. Witness Lee turned to me and offered me a job. Thank the Lord for the warning. I never worked for Daystar and never invested a dime.
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Old 03-18-2014, 06:01 PM   #23
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Concerning the "heresy" of Newton at Plymouth being justified, I have to disagree. Newton's writings, taken as they are, are well within the boundaries of orthodoxy. It was Darby's misreading, adding in excessive doses of his own dramatic hyperbole, which incited unnecessary alarm within the Plymouth saints.

Elden1971, are you aware of the following events?

During Darby's lengthy stay in Plymouth, due to the sheer weight of his own character, slowly many of the leading brothers in that church were turned against Newton in favor of Darby, Wigram and the exclusives. Nearly two decades later, by 1866, some of these learned men of God, primarily William H. Dorman, began to study in-depth the teachings of Darby concerning the humanity of Jesus our Savior under the "federal headship of Adam." Their exhaustive study of Darby's teachings convinced them that his teaching in substance was identical to Newton's in Plymouth back in the 1840's.

With W.H. Dorman, were other renowned Brethren formerly of Plymouth, namely Captain Percy Hall, Joseph Stancomb, and Thomas Newberry (The Englishman's Bible.) Since Darby and his supporters on Park Ave. in London refused to entertain the notion, nor even consider their research, these brothers could no longer bear the hypocrisy, and parted ways with Darby.
Thanks for mentioning that I will see what Wm. Kelley had to say about it.
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Old 03-18-2014, 06:36 PM   #24
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Thanks for mentioning that I will see what Wm. Kelley had to say about it.
Instead of reading what an exclusive said, why not read what an open said?

That's like asking Ron Kangas for the official history of Elden Hall.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:08 PM   #25
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I think I am most grateful for the lifelong friendships that were established at Elden. It is interesting to note that 4 of the 5 elders eventually left or were forced out and over 75% of those at Elden eventually left.
Interesting. It seems the questionnaire LSM sent out on Elden Hall was based on the 25% that haven't left the recovery.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:16 PM   #26
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Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. This Thursday Nancy and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. We are blessed with 17 grandchildren. We look forward to hearing from old friends and making new ones. We have prayed for the leaders of the LC and will continue to do so. We are grateful that the Lord led us to LA and we are grateful that we got out when we did. There is so much we can share of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is our Life and we gather around Him in our home. He chose us before the foundation of the earth and we are complete IN HIM!

Terry and Nancy Risenhoover
Though my perception is based on whether or not you were politically correct, may I ask the basis for your excommunication?
Amen to the Father's leading for you and Nancy.
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Old 03-18-2014, 07:18 PM   #27
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Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus.
Thank you so much for your testimony Terry. You are sure to be a valuable member of our little forum as you can probably "fill in a lot of blanks" for us longtime ex members who were not there during the "Elden Hall" days. Feel free to take your time and catch your breath every once in awhile.

I found it interesting, if not ironic, that you used this phrase "speaking the truth in love" in reference to your "excommunication" from the Local Church. You may or may not be aware that this is the title of a book John Ingalls wrote upon his departure from the movement. Sadly, Witness Lee and many of his followers have a long and sordid history of rejecting and even attacking those who would "speak the truth in love" regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement.

***Special Note for Terry and all others***
In Terry's original post he had posted his home telephone number. I have removed it and replaced it with "Send me a Private Message and I will give you further personal contact information" As a matter of policy I do not allow personal telephone numbers to be placed on the open forum. This is NOT anything that Terry did wrong, it's just that in today's crazy world there is a danger in the general public having one's home phone number. In any event, registered members are free to Private Message Terry and he can then relay all the private contact information he cares to give.

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Old 03-19-2014, 06:53 AM   #28
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Instead of reading what an exclusive said, why not read what an open said?

That's like asking Ron Kangas for the official history of Elden Hall.
I know Ron Kangas and he is no Wm. Kelley.
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:32 AM   #29
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Though my perception is based on whether or not you were politically correct, may I ask the basis for your excommunication?
Amen to the Father's leading for you and Nancy.
Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left. The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:42 AM   #30
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Thank you so much for your testimony Terry. You are sure to be a valuable member of our little forum as you can probably "fill in a lot of blanks" for us longtime ex members who were not there during the "Elden Hall" days. Feel free to take your time and catch your breath every once in awhile.

I found it interesting, if not ironic, that you used this phrase "speaking the truth in love" in reference to your "excommunication" from the Local Church. You may or may not be aware that this is the title of a book John Ingalls wrote upon his departure from the movement. Sadly, Witness Lee and many of his followers have a long and sordid history of rejecting and even attacking those who would "speak the truth in love" regarding the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church movement.

***Special Note for Terry and all others***
In Terry's original post he had posted his home telephone number. I have removed it and replaced it with "Send me a Private Message and I will give you further personal contact information" As a matter of policy I do not allow personal telephone numbers to be placed on the open forum. This is NOT anything that Terry did wrong, it's just that in today's crazy world there is a danger in the general public having one's home phone number. In any event, registered members are free to Private Message Terry and he can then relay all the private contact information he cares to give.

Thanks unto Him.....I did receive one call and had wonderful fellowship and I encourage any of you in or out of the LC to call or email. We had wonderful fellowship last night with a dear Bro. who turns 91 on April 5th and his beloved wife both of whom were with us in Elden. We sang and praised the Lord and rejoiced. Hallelujah!
Tomorrow March 20th is our 49th anniversary!
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:46 AM   #31
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I know Ron Kangas and he is no Wm. Kelley.
Elden1971, I guess I didn't explain my comparison between Kelley and Kangas adequately.
  • Both Kelley and Kangas were gifted, prominent life-time supporters of their leader
  • Both Kelley and Kangas possessed stellar reputations within their circle of fellowship, each being recognized as perhaps the most gifted of their leader's students
  • Both Kelley and Kangas worked as their leader's chief editors, compiling their collected works for publishing, thus enjoying further access to their leader
  • Both Kelley and Kangas would be naturally biased in their account of events, since neither Kelley nor Kangas were active participants in these actual events, and received their version of events mostly from their leader
And I agree, that every comparison is by nature flawed and imperfect.

"These events" for Kelley would be what happened in Plymouth during the excommunication of Newton during the late 1840's.

"These events" for Kangas would be the history of the church life at Elden Hall in Los Angeles during the 1960's to early 1970's.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:07 AM   #32
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Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left.

The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary.

If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement (two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson.) Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home.
Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:13 AM   #33
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Elden1971, I guess I didn't explain my comparison between Kelley and Kangas adequately.
  • Both Kelley and Kangas were gifted, prominent life-time supporters of their leader
  • Both Kelley and Kangas possessed stellar reputations within their circle of fellowship, each being recognized as perhaps the most gifted of their leader's students
  • Both Kelley and Kangas worked as their leader's chief editors, compiling their collected works for publishing, thus enjoying further access to their leader
  • Both Kelley and Kangas would be naturally biased in their account of events, since neither Kelley nor Kangas were active participants in these actual events, and received their version of events mostly from their leader
And I agree, that every comparison is by nature flawed and imperfect.

"These events" for Kelley would be what happened in Plymouth during the excommunication of Newton during the late 1840's.

"These events" for Kangas would be the history of the church life at Elden Hall in Los Angeles during the 1960's to early 1970's.
Sorry but I never knew that Ron Kangas. The Ron I knew had a troubled marriage , was not in the inner circle, and was seriously deceived but maybe all that changed after I left.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:30 AM   #34
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Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.
No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:48 PM   #35
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Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left. The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home
Thank you Terry for your willigness to share.
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Old 03-19-2014, 12:52 PM   #36
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Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.
Ohio, how I have been told as all in the context of vision. having the vision and being faithful to the vision. True, there may be be some acknowlegdment mistakes were made, but it's as brothers have uttered many times; "it's not about right or wrong. It's about life".
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:24 PM   #37
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Sorry but I never knew that Ron Kangas. The Ron I knew had a troubled marriage , was not in the inner circle, and was seriously deceived but maybe all that changed after I left.
I guess a few things have changed over the years.
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Old 03-19-2014, 02:26 PM   #38
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No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.
Amen and amen!
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Old 03-19-2014, 03:47 PM   #39
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Sorry but I never knew that Ron Kangas. The Ron I knew had a troubled marriage , was not in the inner circle, and was seriously deceived but maybe all that changed after I left.
"Seriously deceived" IS what gets you into the inner circle of the LSM/Local Church at this point. They are now called "Blended Brothers".
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Old 03-20-2014, 05:40 AM   #40
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No man is the sole depository of God's truth.
Jesus Christ alone posesses the 'ministry of the age'; both this age and every age which is to come. Jesus alone may be characterized as the "faithful Witness" (Rev 1:5); no one else should be taken at face value but should be tested. Anyone who presumes a pride of place within this ministry, on this side of the Bema (i.e. 'Judgment seat': see e.g. 2 Cor 5:10 & Rom 4:10) is arguably self-deceived. Jesus counseled to take the lowest place.

I've been in meetings where there was 'no one in charge', and we all found a happy spontaneous order. Everyone has gifts and when they are exercised a marvelous testimony emerges. One has a gift, one has a teaching, one has an encouragement, one has a discernment, one has a prophecy. Many 'local church' meetings were like this. It was attractive and pleasant, and probably because it was pleasing to the Father.

But I have been in many meetings where we waited for the delegated 'leader' to take his place at the head of the meeting and the difference was striking.

I am not for abolishing all titles and positions; rather that to the extent that we require them, in the name of 'good order in the church', or in WN's parlance 'the normal christian church life', we risk pushing aside the Spirit sent by Jesus and suffer commensurate loss.

Mr. Nee may have sincerely believed that his organizational arrangement would better serve the Lord to evangelize China, and beyond. But I argue his scheme was as Peter's: "Lord, it is good for us to be here. Let's build three booths: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. I will set up a gate and I and James and John will only allow those whom we deem proper to come in and fellowship. On our terms."

God has His terms. His term is His Son, Jesus. We also have our terms, in which we continually attempt an overlay. To the extent we stubbornly continue to do this, we suffer commensurate loss. Jesus left us with His Spirit of grace. To look to any earthly leader as the mediatory channel of said grace is to arguably miss the point.

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Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.
There is one High Priest standing before the throne, pleading His blood for us all. The rest of us, and I stress all of us, are each the proverbial "Small Potato" of Mr. Lee's rhetoric. Yet each one is gifted in some way, to benefit the body of assembled believers. Lee's error was to attempt to interpose his ministry between the High Priest and the believers. To me it's no wonder that consequently we repeatedly heard about "the new way" or "the vital groups" or some other scheme to attract our attention.

In all these "teachings" and "flows" and "moves of the Lord" and "feelings of the Body" we were distracted and separated from our Head. We lost sight of the High Priest as we accepted some lesser alternative. And again we suffered commensurately.

To show how corrupted their thinking had become, the Blendeds declared, upon WL's passing, that the age of the Great Leader was over and the age of Small Potatos had begun. No man was worthy to step into the shoes of the Apostle and only curators of the Great one's legacy could function, as his flag-wavers.

To which I would reply that the age of the Great Men began with Jesus Christ, and it ends with the same. No other man (or woman) can take this place. In the church there is only one Great Man. There is only one High Priest. The rest of us are as dust, sinful and redeemed by God's grace.

To which the natural question, raised repeatedly in the gospels and continually ever since, is, Who gets to sit at the right hand? Who is on the left? And who sits next to the Right Hand man, and so on? Notice Jesus never answered that directly. He will do so at the Judgment seat, and not before. Paul's dictum of "some as apostles, prophets, and teachers" did not overturn this, and will not. Paul's teachings must be subordinate to Jesus' teachings, not vice versa. Paul would never suborn the Master. He would never approve of using his epistles to do so. Why be so fooled, into trying?
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:00 AM   #41
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Amen and amen!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:35 AM   #42
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Interesting. It seems the questionnaire LSM sent out on Elden Hall was based on the 25% that haven't left the recovery.
Probably less than 10% now from what I understand.
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:42 AM   #43
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.
I would discuss this with anyone by phone or skype as it would be an exceedingly long post.
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Old 03-20-2014, 12:01 PM   #44
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.
I never knew James and I had nver heard him speak, but I incline to think had brother James lived he would not had taken the direction of the new way and would have become persona non grata much as John Ingalls and Bill Mallon had become. I could be wrong, but that's my thought.
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Old 03-20-2014, 04:20 PM   #45
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It would be nice to think that. But from the rather harsh testimonies that were given by the remainder of his family several years ago, there is also evidence that he took an aweful lot to remain where he was. He might just have had what it took to become one of the BBs.

We will never know.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:58 AM   #46
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I never knew James and I had nver heard him speak, but I incline to think had brother James lived he would not had taken the direction of the new way and would have become persona non grata much as John Ingalls and Bill Mallon had become. I could be wrong, but that's my thought.
Unfortunately Terry the tape clearly shows just the opposite. The blind obedience to do whatever Lee said is very evident. Listening to the Texas history was most enlightening and gives real insight into Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, et al
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Old 03-21-2014, 11:50 AM   #47
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Unfortunately Terry the tape clearly shows just the opposite. The blind obedience to do whatever Lee said is very evident. Listening to the Texas history was most enlightening and gives real insight into Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, et al
I try to put events into historical perspectives. Brother James passed on before the new way was into full gear. He didn't have the living opportunity to "change" as John changed or as Bill changed. Before the New Way couldn't you say each of these brothers were obedient to the various flows? There had not been much cause to question Witness Lee.
I have considered what caused James to move from LA to OKC was Phillip Lee related.
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:35 PM   #48
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In his account, Don Rutledge wrote this ...
Eventually in 1974, Elden Hall was given up. The remaining saints in Elden moved to the city of Rosemead, and Witness Lee, John Ingalls, Max Rapaport and a few hundred others moved to Anaheim.

Interestingly the blessing went to Rosemead with Samuel Chang and Don Hardy and 31 others (only 1 young person). One year later they had increased to over 100 and Anaheim had no increase(except for our son that was born!) We were as previously posted the first to move to Anaheim and Bro. Lee moved down the street from us until his home was built. We later moved close to the meeting hall and Al Knoch and Max and many others.
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:01 PM   #49
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In his account, Don Rutledge wrote this ...
Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit.

The difference between Anaheim and Elden prior to Daystar was like night and day. Also our experience in Hall 4 (east LA ) and Hall 6(North Hollywood) was quite positive. It did always bother me that 3 of the six halls were in other cities. Why did we not meet as the Church in Van Nuys and the Church in North Hollywood instead of being Halls of the Church in LA? What happened to the ground of locality?
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Old 03-21-2014, 02:28 PM   #50
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Anaheim never prospered and was a continual hole into which people and money were poured with no increase and no blessing. The Daystar experience was a great frustration to the move of the Spirit.

The difference between Anaheim and Elden prior to Daystar was like night and day. Also our experience in Hall 4 (east LA ) and Hall 6(North Hollywood) was quite positive. It did always bother me that 3 of the six halls were in other cities. Why did we not meet as the Church in Van Nuys and the Church in North Hollywood instead of being Halls of the Church in LA? What happened to the ground of locality?
The ground of locality has proven to be a farce.

My city now has 2 LC's standing on the ground of oneness. Some cities have 4 or 5.

The corollary to one city/ one church (OCOC) was the appointment of elders by the approved "apostle."

Officially, we were against all hierarchy and the system of "bishops." But that is exactly what we had become.
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:16 AM   #51
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http://www.stempublishing.com/author...cts/prize.html

Nee and Lee followed Govett...too bad they didn't follow Kelly
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Old 03-22-2014, 07:31 AM   #52
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http://www.stempublishing.com/author...cts/prize.html

Nee and Lee followed Govett...too bad they didn't follow Kelly
Thanks for this link. We had a heated discussion about just this topic in our home meeting about 2 months ago.
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Old 03-22-2014, 09:35 AM   #53
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..............................
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:31 AM   #54
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Thanks for this link. We had a heated discussion about just this topic in our home meeting about 2 months ago.
http://www.stempublishing.com/author...p/Rapture.html

Then you will enjoy this link as well.
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:42 AM   #55
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http://www.stempublishing.com/author...p/Rapture.html

Then you will enjoy this link as well.
one interesting excerpt:
And the teachers of this partial rapture theory, do not they expect to be "caught up" when Christ comes? If so, what does this argue? Just this, that they are self-righteous; that they consider themselves superior to other believers. If I know myself at all — my many failures, my treacherous heart, my utter unworthiness — can I claim the right to anything but that of confessing myself a sinner saved by grace?
Yes, reader, you may be sure there is a subtle self-conceit underlying this teaching, which makes a privileged class among the saints, with the secret self-confidence that the teachers and followers of the doctrine are among the worthy ones, the faithful, the overcomers.
Yes; that is the word they catch at, "Overcomer." Overcomers, they say, will be caught up, for to such alone is the promise made of being kept from "the hour of temptation which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3 : 10). Granted: but who are the overcomers? Are they a special class in the Church — saints of a superior order, or "disciples indeed," in a sense in which all believers are not? Let us see.
We turn to 1 John 5 : 4, 5 : "For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world; and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" Here we have the divine description of an overcomer: it is the faith in every one that is born of God — faith in Jesus the Son of God — that overcomes the vast hostile system called "the world."
And mark, it is not what some erroneously term "holiness by faith" — the claiming by faith of a "second blessing," "clean heart," "perfect love," "cleansing from inbred sin," etc., but faith in Christ — just such a faith as all true Christians possess. He that overcometh is he "that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God." So it is the "overcomer" that will go when Jesus comes, but the term applies to all believers in Christ — not to a select class among them. And so in Rev. 2 and 3, the overcomer is the true believer, as distinguished from the false. Else what could be made of the promises to such? "He shall eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Rev. 2:7). Is this to be the portion of special saints, or for all true believers? Again, "He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11); will some Christians not be overcomers and be hurt of the second death? Just to ask the question is to answer it — No! And so with all the promises in these addresses to the seven churches ; they are not all the same, but are all beautifully suited to the condition and circumstances of each assembly addressed. All true believers shall partake of the promised blessings, for all shall in the end be overcomers, not by any superior degree of holiness or development of the life of Christ in them, but through the overcoming on the cross of Him in whom we are complete (Col. 2:10), even as it is written, "Thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 15 : 57); and again, "We are more than conquerors through Him that loveth us" (Rom. 8 : 37). Hallelujah to His name!
Now, let us see for a little what more is involved in this error at which we have been looking.
It involves the error of a divided Christ. The expression, "The Christ," includes, in such passages as 1 Cor. 12:12, not only Christ the Head, but also His body, the Church. If, at His coming, a part only of that body is taken and the other left, what becomes of the unity of this mystical body? (See 1 Cor. 12 : 25.) And again, the Church, the body, composed of all believers, is Christ's bride. Will He have a bride with members lacking — a body incomplete, in heaven — some members in glory and glorious with Him above, and others on earth suffering in the great tribulation? Is it not written, "Whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it" (1 Cor. 12:26)? How does this comport with the theory of a partial rapture? Will the members caught up at the coming suffer in heaven with their fellow-members left behind on earth?
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:16 AM   #56
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https://sites.google.com/a/berean-tr...yspiritonearth
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Old 03-23-2014, 07:32 AM   #57
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Concerning the "heresy" of Newton at Plymouth being justified, I have to disagree. Newton's writings, taken as they are, are well within the boundaries of orthodoxy. It was Darby's misreading, adding in excessive doses of his own dramatic hyperbole, which incited unnecessary alarm within the Plymouth saints.

Elden1971, are you aware of the following events?

During Darby's lengthy stay in Plymouth, due to the sheer weight of his own character, slowly many of the leading brothers in that church were turned against Newton in favor of Darby, Wigram and the exclusives. Nearly two decades later, by 1866, some of these learned men of God, primarily William H. Dorman, began to study in-depth the teachings of Darby concerning the humanity of Jesus our Savior under the "federal headship of Adam." Their exhaustive study of Darby's teachings convinced them that his teaching in substance was identical to Newton's in Plymouth back in the 1840's.

With W.H. Dorman, were other renowned Brethren formerly of Plymouth, namely Captain Percy Hall, Joseph Stancomb, and Thomas Newberry (The Englishman's Bible.) Since Darby and his supporters on Park Ave. in London refused to entertain the notion, nor even consider their research, these brothers could no longer bear the hypocrisy, and parted ways with Darby.
About the year 1860 Mr. Stuart's attention was called to the position taken by those Christians commonly called "Plymouth Brethren" (though they have consistently rejected any such title), represented in Reading by a large "gathering," amidst which ministered the late Wm. Henry Dorman, a former Congregational minister, whose connec­tion with the "brethren" dated from about the year 1840. In the years 1845-1848 Mr. Dorman figured as a trusted ally of the late John Nelson Darby in the formation of what has since been denominated the "Exclusive" section of brethren, the continued unhappy effect of which his eldest son, Mr. W. H. Dorman, of Stafford, endeavoured to some extent to remedy. Mr. Stuart became convinced, under the late Mr. Dorman's influence, of the untenable character of his own churchmanship, and without more ado took his place, as the expression was, in the Reading fellowship, which for years was identified especially with his own name.
During the years 1864-1866, Mr. Stuart's fidelity to "J. N. D. ," like that of others, was tested by Mr. Dorman's uncompromising opposition to Mr. Darby' s teaching with reference to a class of sufferings of our Lord, dis­criminated as "non-atoning," as derived from His associa­tion with Israel. This doctrine "W.H.D." put on the same plane as that of B. W. Newton, which brought about the split in 1848. The close acquaintance, however, of C. E. Stuart with the usage of Hebrew words which came into play for any Biblical scholar having to consider such a question, aided him in determining the direction of his own sympathies in the matter. He did not follow the example of his Reading associate, who then seceded from the Darby fellowship.
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:36 AM   #58
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About the year 1860 Mr. Stuart's attention was called to the position taken by those Christians commonly called "Plymouth Brethren" (though they have consistently rejected any such title), represented in Reading by a large "gathering," amidst which ministered the late Wm. Henry Dorman, a former Congregational minister, whose connection with the "brethren" dated from about the year 1840. In the years 1845-1848 Mr. Dorman figured as a trusted ally of the late John Nelson Darby in the formation of what has since been denominated the "Exclusive" section of brethren, the continued unhappy effect of which his eldest son, Mr. W. H. Dorman, of Stafford, endeavoured to some extent to remedy. Mr. Stuart became convinced, under the late Mr. Dorman's influence, of the untenable character of his own churchmanship, and without more ado took his place, as the expression was, in the Reading fellowship, which for years was identified especially with his own name.

During the years 1864-1866, Mr. Stuart's fidelity to "J. N. D. ," like that of others, was tested by Mr. Dorman's uncompromising opposition to Mr. Darby' s teaching with reference to a class of sufferings of our Lord, discriminated as "non-atoning," as derived from His association with Israel. This doctrine "W.H.D." put on the same plane as that of B. W. Newton, which brought about the split in 1848. The close acquaintance, however, of C. E. Stuart with the usage of Hebrew words which came into play for any Biblical scholar having to consider such a question, aided him in determining the direction of his own sympathies in the matter. He did not follow the example of his Reading associate, who then seceded from the Darby fellowship.
In this segment, taken from Pickering's collection, shows only that Stuart was loyal to Darby until death. Though he was a dear brother (they all were!) Brethren culture by this time demanded unwavering loyalties to the established leader. Contrary voices of reason could never, and would never, be accepted lest the MOTA mystique which surrounded Darby be shattered.
A word of explanation here. The teachings in question refer to whether or not Jesus as a man, born of a virgin, a true Israelite, come under the law, during his 30+ years on earth passed through "non-atoning" sufferings or not. In other words, did Jesus suffer as a normal man in Israel would have? Was He disciplined as a child, did he ever get hurt on the job, did He ever fall and get a boo-boo, was He ever bullied, etc.? Newton, in a few messages shared that Jesus lived a "normal" life, not unlike His peers. Except for glimpses of brilliance in the Temple at age 12, Jesus never stood out in Nazareth as a boy wonder.

Darby publicly crushed the recently widowed Newton for this teaching, destroying his reputation among the Brethren, ridiculing him to open shame, summarized by his statement, "Newton's Savior needs a Savior."
Newton provided tracts to reject what he never said, but Darby was never interested in just the truth. Darby needed his rival removed from the scene.

Fast forward to the 1860's, many notable scholars among the Brethren (and there were many!) such as Dorman gathered together the teachings of both Darby and Newton on this very topic for comparison. They concluded that Darby took Newton's teachings as his own after he condemned Newton for them! Stuart, as noted above, stood with Darby by citing some obscure Hebrew words to differentiate the teachings of the two.
When I first read this sad 20 year Brethren story spanning the original attacks on Newton until the final departures of many brothers influenced by Dorman et. al. was during the time leading up to the quarantine of Titus Chu. I was literally in the midst of tract wars, and a war of words. The more I studied both sides' views, the more I realized rhetoric without substance, that we were simply repeating Brethren history, and that their split like our own had nothing to do with teachings and practices, rather both ugly scenes from history were simply power struggles. Ambitious men fighting to be first in line.

Once I realized this, it all made so much sense, and I decided it was about time to leave.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:06 AM   #59
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When I first read this sad 20 year Brethren story spanning the original attacks on Newton until the final departures of many brothers influenced by Dorman et. al. was during the time leading up to the quarantine of Titus Chu. I was literally in the midst of tract wars, and a war of words. The more I studied both sides' views, the more I realized rhetoric without substance, that we were simply repeating Brethren history, and that their split like our own had nothing to do with teachings and practices, rather both ugly scenes from history were simply power struggles. Ambitious men fighting to be first in line.
Once I realized this, it all made so much sense, and I decided it was about time to leave.
I am certainly happy you got out and look forward to fellowship with you.

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Old 03-23-2014, 10:51 AM   #60
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I am certainly happy you got out and look forward to fellowship with you.
You sure you want to fellowship?

If you were around last night, you saw how salty I can get.
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Old 03-23-2014, 10:58 AM   #61
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You sure you want to fellowship?

If you were around last night, you saw how salty I can get.
Salty? I like that ... and pepper too. It has been pretty spicy round here lately.
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Old 03-23-2014, 11:14 AM   #62
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.
We used to love listening to James Barber tapes. He really was a gifted and passionate teacher, so there is a certain amount of nostalgia hearing him again.

But his whole message is a 2nd hand regurgitation of Witness Lee's distorted and self-serving interpretation of church history. After a few minutes, it was just more than I could bear.
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Old 03-23-2014, 11:16 AM   #63
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Salty? I like that ... and pepper too. It has been pretty spicy round here lately.
More like flame broiled red hot chili peppers.
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Old 03-23-2014, 11:28 AM   #64
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We used to love listening to James Barber tapes. . . . After a few minutes, it was just more than I could bear.
Me too. But then I never took to Barber. Reminded me of Southern Baptist preachers I grew up with. And that comb over.
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:31 PM   #65
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You sure you want to fellowship?

If you were around last night, you saw how salty I can get.
I've always liked salt. It kills corruption. Bland I don't care for (Blanded Brothers have lost their savour)
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Old 03-23-2014, 12:43 PM   #66
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We used to love listening to James Barber tapes. He really was a gifted and passionate teacher, so there is a certain amount of nostalgia hearing him again.

But his whole message is a 2nd hand regurgitation of Witness Lee's distorted and self-serving interpretation of church history. After a few minutes, it was just more than I could bear.
I understand your wounds are still healing whereas we have been removed over 35 years and still the first half was difficult to listen to and filled with factual errors. It was the Texas history at Wayland Baptist that helped clarify for me many issues. Hope covered quite a bit in his history but James filled in some of the blanks.
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:04 AM   #67
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Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:29 AM   #68
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Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Cleveland had a burning of sorts when I first started meeting with them. It seemed to lack the intensity of the other burnings I have read about.

A lot of times Cleveland would half-heartedly follow the many movements coming out of Anaheim, just so Titus Chu could say "yeah we did that" and avoid the criticisms of ministry zealots in Anaheim and around the country.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:30 AM   #69
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Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.
None that I recall in LA, Phoenix, or Alburquerque. My family did experience a burning when our home burned down in 1982.
Speaking of BA, MA, and PHD, I seem to recall one of Brother Lee's grandsons going to medical school or something like that. Now I wonder where did the resources come from to pay for such an extensive education?
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:53 PM   #70
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Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.
Attended at least one in Dallas. Know a sister who was in Dallas for a while who spoke on another forum of burning pictures of her children and regretting it long before she left the LRC (which was a long time ago now).

I don't recall what, if anything I contributed to the flames. I must admit that there was always a level of the supercharged atmosphere (when it arose) that was a little off-setting to me. Probably just my nature as a semi hermit that would rather be sane and quiet than boisterous and showy. In any case, this seemed to be one of those things to me. I wouldn't say it was bad. But it did not look like what was mentioned in Acts. And since I had no witchcraft or books on the occult, I was mostly off the hook. I was not as keen on the "evil world" (although at some level I could probably stand to be a little more that way now).
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Old 03-26-2014, 07:52 PM   #71
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I went thru a burning in the C. of Santa Cruz, and another in the C. of Detroit, when Kangas was lead elder.

And one in the C. in Ft Lauderdale ... or rather two.

Mel Porter cooked up a burning in Ft. Lauderdale. He had the brothers and sisters form little groups. The the group went to each house of those in the group to point out what had to go into the fire.

I thought it was disgusting. I did not take part in the group scheme.

I went to the burning. It was on Seminole land, three big deep holes in the Florida sand.

I was so disgusted with it I left before the fires got started.
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Old 03-27-2014, 02:31 AM   #72
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Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.
I wonder if Brother Lee burnt his and his sons' books, TV's, stereos, clothes, and photos.
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Old 03-27-2014, 05:15 AM   #73
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I wonder if Brother Lee burnt his and his sons' books, TV's, stereos, clothes, and photos.
The burnings started out with evil things like the magic books they burnt in Ephesus in Acts 19.19. Then the criteria became, "anything worldly." Eventually the flame standard became "anything that occupied your heart."

This is why so many had bitter regrets. They were manipulated by zealous elders. Many burnt wedding albums and their children's pictures, thinking that this was demanded by a "holy" God.

Like many of the programs coming out of the ministry, they were designed for the rank and file, but not for the family of the leaders. They seemed to possess exemption cards.
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Old 03-27-2014, 06:44 AM   #74
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I listened to James Barber many years ago say that anyone who was not absolute for the church he would drive them out. A big red flag went up for me but obviously it didn't work that well since I have stayed all this time. The talk about vision without much definition has always been a bug for me.

The thing about the education was such a mystery to me. As some have mentioned, Lee seemed to be against education for a while and then a complete reversal. I think he was just training us to follow him absolutely without thought. Remember the "young gallilians?" That was one crazy time. He turned every thing over to the young ones for about a week and quickly picked the reins back up. It was all just an act.

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Old 03-27-2014, 07:50 AM   #75
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I listened to James Barber many years ago say that anyone who was not absolute for the church he would drive them out. A big red flag went up for me but obviously it didn't work that well since I have stayed all this time. The talk about vision without much definition has always been a bug for me.

The thing about the education was such a mystery to me. As some have mentioned, Lee seemed to be against education for a while and then a complete reversal. I think he was just training us to follow him absolutely without thought. Remember the "young gallilians?" That was one crazy time. He turned every thing over to the young ones for about a week and quickly picked the reins back up. It was all just an act.

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Lee encouraged the young people to do some really stupid stuff. "I'm a man I'm the center and the meaning of the universe" was being shouted at cars and pedestrians outside the Embassy Hotel in downtown LA. Getting on crowded elevators and telling everyone let's call on the name of the Lord "O LORD JESUS" INSURED that everyone would get off at the next floor and of course our white robes and gospel marches with drums and trumpets even disrupted the Hare Krishnas!
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:11 AM   #76
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Lee encouraged the young people to do some really stupid stuff.
And when things blew up, EVERY SINGLE TIME Lee blamed somebody else. In the late 70s it was Max Rapoport and Sal Benoit, in the late 80s it was John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, et al. It was NEVER his fault. It's no wonder that most Local Churchers look at Lee as virtually infallible, the man never admitted a mistake....except maybe for that incredibly weak and lame deathbed type confession at the end.

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Old 03-27-2014, 08:33 AM   #77
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Lee encouraged the young people to do some really stupid stuff.
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And when things blew up, EVERY SINGLE TIME Lee blamed somebody else.
In this regard Lee was the sneakiest of all. During the "Young Galilean" movement of the mid-70's, Lee had his minions stirring up the young people all over the US. Hundreds of young saints up and relocated at their bidding for supposed "training." Elders had no say whatsoever concerning the sheep under their care. Forget about prayer and following the Lord. Then the whole things implodes, and then in the aftermath Lee says, "I never told anyone what to do."

Talk about a sneaky copout!
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Old 03-28-2014, 07:30 AM   #78
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Not that it's worth that much, but I believe you'll find that Van Nuys, Hollywood, and N Hollywood are part of the city of Los Angeles. Beverly Hills is a city.

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Old 03-28-2014, 08:25 AM   #79
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The thing about the education was such a mystery to me. As some have mentioned, Lee seemed to be against education for a while and then a complete reversal. I think he was just training us to follow him absolutely without thought. Remember the "young gallilians?" That was one crazy time. He turned every thing over to the young ones for about a week and quickly picked the reins back up. It was all just an act.

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Very insightful post! Another thing that Witness Lee said was that the Local Church would never have any kind of seminary. He did a complete reversal on that one as well with the establishment of "The Full-Time Training". which is now dubbed as "A two year post-graduate program". MMMM...a two year post-graduate progam....which is based upon biblical and religious studies....sounds a lot like a seminary to me! In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the LC/LSM tries to get the FTT accredited as a Christian seminary - albeit they will need assistance from the likes of Hank Hanegraaff and some liberal professors over at Fuller.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:00 AM   #80
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In reflecting back on our experience at Elden Hall the most positive thing was the Fellowship that existed in the home meetings, service groups, giving of hospitality and of course the Love Feasts on Saturday nights. One wonderful memory was when we just could not handle the heat and smog and loaded up our kids and drove to the mountains to a campsite and suddenly discovered several other families from Elden had all done the same thing. What a wonderful time of fellowship, singing, and praising the Lord. The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:05 AM   #81
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In reflecting back on our experience at Elden Hall the most positive thing was the Fellowship that existed in the home meetings, service groups, giving of hospitality and of course the Love Feasts on Saturday nights. One wonderful memory was when we just could not handle the heat and smog and loaded up our kids and drove to the mountains to a campsite and suddenly discovered several other families from Elden had all done the same thing. What a wonderful time of fellowship, singing, and praising the Lord. The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.
The best thing about the conferences was not the meetings but the fellowship between the saints in the homes. We once had 27 saints for hospitality for 10 days. It was glorious ( and yes we did have a large home)!
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:16 AM   #82
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The best thing about the conferences was not the meetings but the fellowship between the saints in the homes. We once had 27 saints for hospitality for 10 days. It was glorious ( and yes we did have a large home)!
Elden1971, the typical LSMer will naturally respond that the only reason for the glorious hospitality, and the rich fellowship in the homes, and the joyful singing in the mountains, was the exceeding riches being dispensed by Witness Lee, the Minister of the Age.
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Old 03-28-2014, 01:41 PM   #83
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In reflecting back on our experience at Elden Hall the most positive thing was the Fellowship that existed in the home meetings, service groups, giving of hospitality and of course the Love Feasts on Saturday nights. One wonderful memory was when we just could not handle the heat and smog and loaded up our kids and drove to the mountains to a campsite and suddenly discovered several other families from Elden had all done the same thing. What a wonderful time of fellowship, singing, and praising the Lord. The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.
If there was a way to separate the community that was in the LRC from the teachings and nonsense that have continued, that would be something. If there is anything to be said about the Local Churches — even to this day in some places — is that the people are among the most devoted to each other. And that is worthy of great note.

Unfortunate all that they have to put up with, or be hoodwinked by, as they carry on.
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Old 03-28-2014, 04:28 PM   #84
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The love and care between the saints was what attracted others not the ministry.
Now, there is still love and care, but according to how one receives the ministry. It's loving those who love the ministry.
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Old 03-28-2014, 05:44 PM   #85
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Elden1971, the typical LSMer will naturally respond that the only reason for the glorious hospitality, and the rich fellowship in the homes, and the joyful singing in the mountains, was the exceeding riches being dispensed by Witness Lee, the Minister of the Age.
Fortunately for us that was not the case and interestingly over 95% of those in Elden that cared for us all left within a few years. I can not even relate to what you and others experienced and the current situation is difficult to comprehend. I tried to read some of the high peak messages this week but was so grieved I had to stop after a few minutes. I am so glad the Lord removed us and spared us the craziness of the last 3 decades.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:31 PM   #86
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I can not even relate to what you and others experienced and the current situation is difficult to comprehend. I tried to read some of the high peak messages this week but was so grieved I had to stop after a few minutes.
The "high peak" truth is still there, in books, in messages, and in Morning Revivals. Here is one of the latest titles: "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose." Unfortunately, saints take it at its face value.
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Old 03-29-2014, 06:41 AM   #87
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The "high peak" truth is still there, in books, in messages, and in Morning Revivals. Here is one of the latest titles: "Entering into the Fourth Stage of the Experience of Life to Arrive at a Full-grown Man for the Fulfillment of God's Purpose." Unfortunately, saints take it at its face value.
Two of the biggest disappointments to me were the two books The knowledge of Life and The experience of Life. Lee talked about Life and wrote about Life but knew very little of Life as evidenced by his lack of Life manifested in his life. Witness Lee was no "witness" Lee. He was not the MOTA nor was NEE. They were flawed men who admitted to "borrowing" the teachings of others and have caused great harm to countless members of the Body of Christ by perpetuating false teachings. This is not some rant, but the conclusion of 35 years of careful study of the writings of those who Nee and Lee specifically mention in their messages and years of intimate fellowship. I am a vessel of mercy and I thank God for His mercy everyday. His mercy endureth forever!
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Old 03-29-2014, 07:35 AM   #88
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Two of the biggest disappointments to me were the two books The knowledge of Life and The experience of Life. Lee talked about Life and wrote about Life but knew very little of Life as evidenced by his lack of Life manifested in his life. Witness Lee was no "witness" Lee. He was not the MOTA nor was NEE. They were flawed men who admitted to "borrowing" the teachings of others and have caused great harm to countless members of the Body of Christ by perpetuating false teachings. This is not some rant, but the conclusion of 35 years of careful study of the writings of those who Nee and Lee specifically mention in their messages and years of intimate fellowship. I am a vessel of mercy and I thank God for His mercy everyday. His mercy endureth forever!
Amen!

Nee and Lee were false teachers, "blind guides leading the blind." Even if they had sight, they had no vision.
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:02 AM   #89
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Let me make something explicitly clear regarding Witness Lee. I knew Witness Lee, I was a guest in his apartment on Westmoreland in LA, in his apartment on Juno in Anaheim and I helped move him into his duplex along with his son Philip. I knew 3 of his 6 children and I spent private one on one time with him and all of them. I know personally 10 of the blended brothers. When I post about them it is from my personal experience not from something I have read. John, Bill, Al and Godfred were all friends and I still have periodic contact with them. Don Hardy and I visit almost every week and his testimony is being written and hopefully will appear soon. I would welcome calls from anyone who wishes to know the truth of the early years and the results of my research over the past 35 years.
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Old 03-29-2014, 10:12 AM   #90
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I tried to read some of the high peak messages this week but was so grieved I had to stop after a few minutes
Same thing happened to me when trying to read the Kindle book you loaned me Terry.

Tried to read Amazing Grace (click) by Watchman Nee. Couldn't stomach it.
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Old 03-29-2014, 01:06 PM   #91
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Let me make something explicitly clear regarding Witness Lee. I knew Witness Lee, I was a guest in his apartment on Westmoreland in LA, in his apartment on Juno in Anaheim and I helped move him into his duplex along with his son Philip. I knew 3 of his 6 children and I spent private one on one time with him and all of them. I know personally 10 of the blended brothers. When I post about them it is from my personal experience not from something I have read. John, Bill, Al and Godfred were all friends and I still have periodic contact with them. Don Hardy and I visit almost every week and his testimony is being written and hopefully will appear soon. I would welcome calls from anyone who wishes to know the truth of the early years and the results of my research over the past 35 years.
Don Rutledge posted on this forum (as Hope) frequently, though not of SoCal, he also knew many brothers from those early days.

Did you know he also was writing his own account about the LC's? After posting 2 chapters, he was visited by 3 brothers from LSM. His writing then stopped.
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Old 03-29-2014, 07:08 PM   #92
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Don Rutledge posted on this forum (as Hope) frequently, though not of SoCal, he also knew many brothers from those early days.

Did you know he also was writing his own account about the LC's? After posting 2 chapters, he was visited by 3 brothers from LSM. His writing then stopped.
Ohio, I believe there were other circumstances affecting the stoppage. Although the brother's visit does appear to be quite a coincidence.
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Old 03-31-2014, 11:49 AM   #93
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Don Rutledge posted on this forum (as Hope) frequently, though not of SoCal, he also knew many brothers from those early days.

Did you know he also was writing his own account about the LC's? After posting 2 chapters, he was visited by 3 brothers from LSM. His writing then stopped.
I would wish that Hope would continue writing his history because every locality had unique experiences and it is helpful to get the varied perspectives. I have encouraged Don Hardy to share his experience because of his close involvement with the Lee family, Daystar, Elden and Rosemead
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Old 03-31-2014, 03:14 PM   #94
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I would wish that Hope would continue writing his history because every locality had unique experiences and it is helpful to get the varied perspectives. I have encouraged Don Hardy to share his experience because of his close involvement with the Lee family, Daystar, Elden and Rosemead
Unfortunately, Hope took a lot of heat from other posters because they felt he was too kind to some of the folks he wrote about, and not sympathetic to those former members who cried foul.

There are also a bunch of emails between Don Hardy and Steve Isitt all strung together which were sent to me and to others years ago. They actually started out pretty graphic, since Hardy has seen things of Philip Lee which should never have happened in the offices of LSM. I put them into a Word doc, and as I was reading through them, I tried to clean them up a little, unifying fonts and the like.
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Old 04-02-2014, 06:48 AM   #95
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Regarding post 13

I'm sure there are others like me who would welcome some documented evidence of the financial problems of Lee and sons in Taiwan and Phillipines. I don't doubt them at all but it would be comforting to have a confirmation. I know plenty of LCers that say it is all a pack of lies. Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy. Possibly writings by Hardy and Issit may be some hard evidence to gainsay.

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
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Old 04-02-2014, 07:07 AM   #96
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Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy...

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
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That's exactly what they tell us.

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Let me make something explicitly clear regarding Witness Lee. I knew Witness Lee, I was a guest in his apartment on Westmoreland in LA, in his apartment on Juno in Anaheim and I helped move him into his duplex along with his son Philip. I knew 3 of his 6 children and I spent private one on one time with him and all of them. I know personally 10 of the blended brothers. When I post about them it is from my personal experience not from something I have read. John, Bill, Al and Godfred were all friends and I still have periodic contact with them. Don Hardy and I visit almost every week and his testimony is being written and hopefully will appear soon. I would welcome calls from anyone who wishes to know the truth of the early years and the results of my research over the past 35 years.
Last week I tried to talk to an old brother from the LRC about some hidden facts of the Local Church history. He didn't seem to be enthusiastic. He stopped that talk and said, “Satan is accusing our church day and night. We must be faithful to Jesus to protect His Body and His work.” I didn't know what to say. I didn't dare to tell the brother to check with the Lord if he is more faithful to Nee, Lee, and their doctrines than he is faithful to Jesus Christ. After all, who am I? I’m sure I’m even less faithful.

He is a very good brother: sincere, humble, and righteous. But he is fully confident that he has been building nothing but the Body of Christ for all his years in the Local Church. He has no doubts, no questions, and no critical thinking about the LRC, their leaders, and their doctrines. One day the brother told us about the book of Dr. Hsu. I am not sure if he read it or not. He just said that an old lady from China wrote a book, accusing Watchman Nee. She had done it years ago and now she published the book again. “How dare she accuse Watchman Nee! He had a spotless reputation.” When he said that, tears of sorrow were rolling down his cheeks.

I can’t stop thinking of him. He is a prominent person in our hall. He loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind, but he ignores any fact that doesn't portray Nee, Lee, and the LRC in the most favorable light. He complains that he stopped his spiritual growth many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”

I believe it’s only God’s grace that can open his eyes to see the truth. My fellowship has been useless. I wish brother Terry could fellowship with him but I’m afraid it’s impossible. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He already knows his answer: "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones... Satan is accusing the church day and night... We must be faithful to Christ."
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Old 04-02-2014, 08:18 AM   #97
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Forgetting those things in the past I press toward the goal of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus .Before we came to the local church we were zealous for the Lord ,while in the church we were zealous for the Lord but became distracted by the false teaching and practices, since we have left the local church we are still zealous for the Lord by the Lord's mercy. Our focus is Christ and our desire is genuine Fellowship. We have all sinned and there is none righteous no not one. God forbid that we should glory except in the cross of our Lord. May the Lord be merciful to all of us that we might live in the reality of Galatians 2:20.....no longer I, but Christ
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Old 04-02-2014, 08:21 AM   #98
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Regarding post 13

I'm sure there are others like me who would welcome some documented evidence of the financial problems of Lee and sons in Taiwan and Phillipines. I don't doubt them at all but it would be comforting to have a confirmation. I know plenty of LCers that say it is all a pack of lies. Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy. Possibly writings by Hardy and Issit may be some hard evidence to gainsay.

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
Lisbon
That is a true statement when you realize that the blended brothers are the ambitious ones.....and Benson is the most ambitious of all as his lifelong dream was to head a worldwide ministry according to his college classmates testimony and my personal experience with him.
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:46 AM   #99
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That is a true statement when you realize that the blended brothers are the ambitious ones.....and Benson is the most ambitious of all as his lifelong dream was to head a worldwide ministry according to his college classmates testimony and my personal experience with him.
James 3.16 speaks well of the "Blended" ambitions by those at LSM ...
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For where jealousy and selfish ambitions exist, there you will find disorder and every evil work.
Romans 2.1 well addresses self-righteous "Blended" condemnations on others ...
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You, therefore, are inexcusable, you who pass judgment on others. For in what you judge others, you condemn yourself, since while you judge others, you practice the very same things.
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Old 04-02-2014, 10:27 AM   #100
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He complains that he stopped his spiritual grows many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”
"Why follow my spirit? It might disagree with Witness Lee," is what a brother in the LRC said to me when I asked if he still followed his spirit.
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:04 AM   #101
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I believe it’s only God’s grace that can open his eyes to see the truth. My fellowship has been useless. I wish brother Terry could fellowship with him but I’m afraid it’s impossible. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He already knows his answer: "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones... Satan is accusing the church day and night... We must be faithful to Christ."
That's so very true. When I tried to bring up matters of history I received first a guarded response "We don't need to discuss that. The Lord has moved on, so should we" and then (literally) flight from my presence. What I see is that there are many older LC members who already KNOW the truth of the matter, but refuse to deal with that truth. It's easier to leave their heads buried in the sand and pretend none of it ever happened.... That way they don't have to deal with what those facts mean about the "spiritual lives" their leading now, and the real condition of the movement they've given their lives to. Only Christ can call His own, and only Prayer, not reasoning and factual proof, can liberate these people.
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:43 AM   #102
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I can’t stop thinking of him. He is a prominent person in our hall. He loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind, but he ignores any fact that doesn't portray Nee, Lee, and the LRC in the most favorable light. He complains that he stopped his spiritual grows many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”
He's not alone. Lee had the tremendous ability to project failure on all his audience. It was not until I left the recovery did I wonder to myself, "If Lee worried that we had become Laodicea, then why did he never take some responsibility?"

The dishonest leaders in the Recovery felt that they had arrived as "overcomers," following in the footsteps of the "acting God," while the rest of us honest ones beat ourselves up over our failure did live up to Lee's "vision."
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Old 04-03-2014, 12:26 PM   #103
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That's exactly what they tell us.



Last week I tried to talk to an old brother from the LRC about some hidden facts of the Local Church history. He didn't seem to be enthusiastic. He stopped that talk and said, “Satan is accusing our church day and night. We must be faithful to Jesus to protect His Body and His work.” I didn't know what to say. I didn't dare to tell the brother to check with the Lord if he is more faithful to Nee, Lee, and their doctrines than he is faithful to Jesus Christ. After all, who am I? I’m sure I’m even less faithful.

He is a very good brother: sincere, humble, and righteous. But he is fully confident that he has been building nothing but the Body of Christ for all his years in the Local Church. He has no doubts, no questions, and no critical thinking about the LRC, their leaders, and their doctrines. One day the brother told us about the book of Dr. Hsu. I am not sure if he read it or not. He just said that an old lady from China wrote a book, accusing Watchman Nee. She had done it years ago and now she published the book again. “How dare she accuse Watchman Nee! He had a spotless reputation.” When he said that, tears of sorrow were rolling down his cheeks.

I can’t stop thinking of him. He is a prominent person in our hall. He loves God with all his heart, all his soul, and all his mind, but he ignores any fact that doesn't portray Nee, Lee, and the LRC in the most favorable light. He complains that he stopped his spiritual growth many years ago, but he doesn't blame the teachings that he preaches. He blames himself because it’s him who doesn't “exercise his spirit.”

I believe it’s only God’s grace that can open his eyes to see the truth. My fellowship has been useless. I wish brother Terry could fellowship with him but I’m afraid it’s impossible. He isn't going to listen to anyone. He already knows his answer: "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones... Satan is accusing the church day and night... We must be faithful to Christ."
t
How can one be faithful to Christ and be supporting a ministry that usurps Christ?
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Old 04-03-2014, 12:45 PM   #104
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How can one be faithful to Christ and be supporting a ministry that usurps Christ?
Terry, you well know the answer to this question : By sticking their head in the sand ... of course.
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Old 04-03-2014, 03:53 PM   #105
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When I tried to bring up matters of history I received first a guarded response "We don't need to discuss that. The Lord has moved on, so should we" and then (literally) flight from my presence. What I see is that there are many older LC members who already KNOW the truth of the matter, but refuse to deal with that truth.
Rooted in double-standards. The best admission I ever received was something to the effect of "honoring the feeling of the brothers". Which I perceive is no matter how much merit there might be, to break away from being partial to the brothers is not a risk deemed worthy.
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Old 04-03-2014, 06:35 PM   #106
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t
How can one be faithful to Christ and be supporting a ministry that usurps Christ?
He doesn’t think so. He believes that the LRC is the only genuine Christian church. What makes him think so? I’m not sure. But he likes to repeat the Local Church “genealogy” that “started” from Luther.

One more thing, he believes that Christianity has been degraded.
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Old 04-04-2014, 02:48 AM   #107
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He doesn’t think so. He believes that the LRC is the only genuine Christian church. What makes him think so? I’m not sure. But he likes to repeat the Local Church “genealogy” that “started” from Luther.

One more thing, he believes that Christianity has been degraded.
The so-called degradation of Christianity springs from remnant theology. All exclusive systems successfully use it it convince their loyal followers that they alone are are "faithful" to the narrow way.

Distorted oneness is a common theme used by them all. They promote a system of oneness teachings that supposedly only they can achieve. Part of it is in the name, as if the NT provides a unique name for the one true church. Hence church in LA is good, while "the church of God in Christ in LA" is a degraded denominational division. Likewise the "church in LA, Hall One" is good, but the "First Church in LA" is bad.

In reality, a church's relationship with LSM decides her status as healthy or degraded. The true condition of the church means next to nothing. Whether or not the church uses HWfMR means everything.
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Old 04-04-2014, 05:55 AM   #108
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"Why follow my spirit? It might disagree with Witness Lee," is what a brother in the LRC said to me when I asked if he still followed his spirit.
Alas! They put their trust in Witness Lee -- in his word, his authority, and his command.

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All exclusive systems successfully use it it convince their loyal followers that they alone are are "faithful" to the narrow way.
I agree. That’s what they feel in the LRC. Responsible brothers even frighten us grassroots: “If you are not faithful enough, the Lord will choose other people and raise another church.”

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Only Christ can call His own, and only Prayer, not reasoning and factual proof, can liberate these people.
That’s right. Reasoning and factual proof can’t liberate these people. Only Christ can call His own.

Today I tried to talk to my wife about the LCR, their leaders, and their doctrines. It was useless. She brushed away my reasoning and said: “Satan entered your heart... You can’t trust what they write in the Internet... It’s those ambitious ones who want to discredit our church... To understand the truth, you need to read more Witness Lee’s books... I know the truth because I read the books and pray. And the Lord tells me that our teaching is true.” Funny, we pray about the same thing, but the Lord gives us two different answers. I see the LRC as a cult and WL as a false teacher. She thinks opposite. Thank God, somehow we still have peace.
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Old 04-04-2014, 12:13 PM   #109
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“If you are not faithful enough, the Lord will choose other people and raise another church.”
What type of a gospel is this?

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." This was Jesus words in Matthew 16:18.
Are the responsible brothers saying Jesus will raise up another church? That's contrary to what is spoken in Matthew 16:18. However if these brothers are referring to ecclesia or assemblies, that's already been done. Take any city where there's a LSM lampstand, you will find many assemblies with many Christians meeting within those assemblies.
The phase "If you are not faithful enough" seems to imply an exclusive concept that God is limited in who He chooses and only they can be chosen.
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Old 04-04-2014, 12:42 PM   #110
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I agree. That’s what they feel in the LRC. Responsible brothers even frighten us grassroots: “If you are not faithful enough, the Lord will choose other people and raise another church.”
.
But listen to the underlying message here ... The LC God is only big enough to dwell in one group of believers at a time.

This is the outcome of believing the distorted version of Recovery history under the succession of MOTAs.
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Old 04-04-2014, 01:04 PM   #111
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You can’t trust what they write in the Internet.
Speaking about forums such as this one, true. There is always the possiblity of incomplete information. Some content can also be inaccurate while other content is accurate. Just as easily as one can say, " you can't trust what they write in the internet", one can also say "you can't trust the blending brothers". Like the Obama administration, they speak positive words while their actions contradict. After time it becomes clanging cymbals.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:36 AM   #112
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What type of a gospel is this?
It must be old wives' tales. But LCers believe them because they put their trust in WL, the MOTA and the LRC genealogy.

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But listen to the underlying message here ... The LC God is only big enough to dwell in one group of believers at a time.
Yup. Probably, they think that believers from other churches “were not faithful and worthy enough” to receive the LC “high-peak truth.” You know, God always chooses “the best”, ”the chosen ones.”

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Speaking about forums such as this one, true. There is always the possiblity of incomplete information. Some content can also be inaccurate while other content is accurate. Just as easily as one can say, " you can't trust what they write in the internet", one can also say "you can't trust the blending brothers". Like the Obama administration, they speak positive words while their actions contradict. After time it becomes clanging cymbals.
That’s right. It’s the same about WL’s books. A man of sound mind can't blindly trust everything WL wrote in his volumes. But somehow LCers trust it because they believe that WL and the blending brothers always follow the Spirit, i.e. the Lord is using them to reveal “the high-peak truth.”
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Old 04-06-2014, 09:16 AM   #113
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Hallelujah for another day to Praise the Lord. He alone is WORTHY to be PRAISED! How I thank Him for His Mercy and Grace.
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Old 04-10-2014, 03:05 PM   #114
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Finally, all of you be of one mind, having compassion for one another; love as brothers, be tenderhearted, be courteous; not returning evil for evil or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, knowing that you were called to this, that you may inherit a blessing. For
“He who would love life
And see good days,
... Let him refrain his tongue from evil,
And his lips from speaking deceit.
Let him turn away from evil and do good;
Let him seek peace and pursue it.
For the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous,
And His ears are open to their prayers;
But the face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:22 AM   #115
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Bro. Lee often referred to the glorious days of Elden and surely for those of us who were there from 62-74 many would testify to that fact. Why then did those key workers from that era ultimately all leave. Doug Kreiger in his testimony has testified that by 1974 it was all over as a result of Daystar and other issues. Doug had devoted 12 years of his life and had brought hundreds into Elden and Berkley. The core leadership at Elden Hall consisted of Samuel Chang, Don Hardy, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon and Al Knoch and yet all of these were betrayed by Bro. Lee after 20-25 years of faithful service . Godfred Otuteye , Sal Benoit, Ken Unger, Ned Nossaman were also greatly used and then wrongfully much maligned. Fred Malir and John Cowan were chosen to go to Brazil and returned to Elden and both left in 78. Fred now 91 was greatly used later in many countries especially in Cuba where with Don Hardy hundreds of home meetings were established and thrive to this day. Only Samuel Chang and Ken Unger have gone to be with the Lord the other men are still serving the Lord and most have written testimonies available on this and other sites. I could name dozens more like Jose Nunez who has been a missionary to Uganda the past 10 years and has mentored hundreds of Christian workers. More and more names are filling my memory and all left and all have gone on with the Lord. The hidden history of Bro. Lee is shameful in how he treated those co-workers and it will all be revealed at the Judgment Seat. The current activity of the Blended Brothers to me has been incomprehensible since I knew most of them and I'm shocked at the level of deception that has encompassed them, but a little leaven eventually leavens the whole lot.
May we all continue to pray for their deliverance and for all who remain under their control.
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Old 04-16-2014, 12:09 PM   #116
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Regarding post 13

I'm sure there are others like me who would welcome some documented evidence of the financial problems of Lee and sons in Taiwan and Phillipines. I don't doubt them at all but it would be comforting to have a confirmation. I know plenty of LCers that say it is all a pack of lies. Many LCers strongly agree with RG and BP that their leaders are pristine and holy. Possibly writings by Hardy and Issit may be some hard evidence to gainsay.

In my many years in the LC I've heard it said too many times "It's all a pack of lies by the ambitious ones."
Lisbon
I'm sure there are brothers in Asia who could be more whistleblowers what has happened in Asia.
As for Steve Isitt goes, this quote from Elden1971 in post #115 may answer why he was removed from fellowship,

"The current activity of the Blended Brothers to me has been incomprehensible since I knew most of them and I'm shocked at the level of deception that has encompassed them, but a little leaven eventually leavens the whole lot."

When you start digging into the past, asking questions, seeking brothers who had left, one begins to learn the other side of the coin. There is good reason the blended brothers don't want you speaking to quarantined brothers. The brothers who left no longer have cause to be politically correct. While the blended brothers at least some feel some shame for their promoting of Phillip Lee. It's a part of the local church history they would like to consider as never having transpired.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:32 AM   #117
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That is a true statement when you realize that the blended brothers are the ambitious ones.....and Benson is the most ambitious of all as his lifelong dream was to head a worldwide ministry according to his college classmates testimony and my personal experience with him.
If I recall "Hope" had said the same thing regarding Benson.
Concering the so-called ambitious ones, at a lunch in 2004 one of the so-called ambitious ones told me if he had been ambitious in the manner LSM co-workers portray him to be, he would have never left.
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Old 04-23-2014, 06:35 PM   #118
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"Saviour before Thy face we fall,
Our Lord, our life, our hope, our all,
For we have nowhere else to flee,
No sanctuary, Lord, but Thee."
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Old 04-24-2014, 06:58 AM   #119
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This will be my last post for a while and I want to thank untohim for putting up and maintaining this site and I want to thank each of you that are contributing. For those of you still meeting with the local churches (LRC) my wife and I would welcome personal contact to pray and fellowship with you. For those of you that have called or sent personal messages we look forward to continued contact. As my wife and I enter our 70th year here on this amazing planet we thank God for our soon to be 50 years together and what a journey it has been as Christ has made his home in our hearts. Oh how we praise and thank and worship Him for showing us that NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. We remain full of the Love and Peace and Joy of the Lord. Our prayer for each of you is that you may be filled continually with His Presence where there is indeed fullness of Joy!
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:11 AM   #120
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This will be my last post for a while
You will be sorely missed.

Many blessings.
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Old 04-24-2014, 08:58 AM   #121
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You will be sorely missed.

Many blessings.
HD
Amen. Really good contributions to the discussion. Thanks and God bless.
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Old 04-29-2014, 07:54 AM   #122
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"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." This, we may rest assured, is grateful to the heart of God. "To this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word."
Here lies the true secret of moral security. Our knowledge of scripture may be very limited; but if our reverence for it be profound, we shall be preserved from a thousand errors, a thousand snares. And then there will be steady growth. We shall grow in the knowledge of God, of Christ and of the written word. We shall delight to draw from those living and exhaustless depths of holy scripture, and to range through those green pastures which infinite grace has so freely thrown open to the flock of Christ. Thus shall the divine life be nourished and strengthened; the word of God will become more and more precious to our souls, and we shall be led by the powerful ministry of the Holy Ghost into the depth, fullness, majesty and moral glory of holy scripture. We shall be delivered completely from the withering influences of all mere systems of theology, high, low or moderate — a most blessed deliverance! We shall be able to tell the advocates of all the schools of divinity under the sun that, whatever elements of truth they may have in their systems, we have in divine perfectness in the word of God; not twisted and tortured to make them fit into a system, but in their right place in the wide circle of divine revelation which has its eternal centre in the blessed Person of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. CHM
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:40 AM   #123
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It has often been pointed out that in 2nd Timothy we see the failure of the church, and have the instruction for the direction of the faithful in the last days. Although man fails, and the outward testimony of the church is in ruin, there can be no failure in the carrying out of God's promise, for it depends, not on the fidelity of man, but on the faithfulness of God. This is what the Apostle begins with in his second epistle to Timothy, "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus" (2 Tim. 1:1).
God's promise of life is also mentioned in Titus 1:2, "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began", so that God's promise tells us what He determined to do in regard to the communication of eternal life to His own, to those He had chosen to be the companions of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. God's promise, His eternal purpose, cannot be frustrated by anyone, nor can the failure of man hinder what He is determined to do; and with the failure of the church before his eyes, Paul, by the Spirit of God, falls back upon the eternal purpose of God.
This life that God has promised is the eternal life that is in Christ Jesus. It is in Christ Jesus now where He is in heaven; it was in Him essentially before time began, and ever remains in Him in this way (John 1:4); and when He came into Manhood to carry out the Father's will, the Father gave to Him as Man "to have life in Himself' (John 5:26). This eternal life is in God's Son, and true believers have it in Him now, and shall have it in Him and with Him for all eternity (1 John 5:11). The Spirit of God presents through John eternal life as even now possessed by the saints in Christ, but Paul is used by the Holy Spirit to present it as connected with our glorified condition with Christ in a coming day, so that it is a "blessed hope", the "hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2; Titus 2:13;
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Old 05-08-2014, 09:44 AM   #124
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At the close of 2 Timothy 1 the Apostle had written, "all they which are in Asia be turned away from me", but Onesiphorus had remained faithful to him, "and was not ashamed of his chain as the prisoner of Christ Jesus (2 Tim. 1:15-18). If we cannot rely on the support of saints in times of difficulty and crisis, we can always rely on the Lord to be sustained with the grace that abides in Him, and that was given to us by God in Him before the ages of time. We are not to be strong in ourselves, else we shall certainly fail, but we are to draw upon God's resources in Christ.
This exhortation has the last days specially in view, for the epistle was written to tell us of the conditions of these last days, and of the divine resources that are available in Christ to enable us to be faithful to the Lord, and to follow the divine directions given for those who desire to be faithful amidst the departure from the truth that had been ministered by Paul. Only as we are strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus shall we be able to separate from the iniquity that abounds in the professing church, and "follow righteousness, faith, love, peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart" (2 Tim. 2:19-22).
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Old 05-15-2014, 07:12 AM   #125
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144

Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..
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Old 05-15-2014, 07:25 AM   #126
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http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144
Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..
H.A. Ironside
What the future holds in store for this movement if our blessed Lord tarry but a few years longer no man can predict. But one thing is absolutely certain: Brethren must either break from traditionalism and go on with God, as the Spirit leads through the opened Word and the sanctified judgment of men who have understanding of the times, or they will themselves be literally broken to pieces; in which case the unity they originally aimed at keeping may be nearer than we think. The late Captain R. Carey-Brenton, one of the most devoted missionaries ever in fellowship with the assemblies, who died in Mexico a few years ago, said to me once: “I have been so burdened about our divisions, and have been praying that God would bring our divided gatherings together. Lately I was watching a man break stones and I observed that it was only when the boulders were all broken to gravel that they became one. It may be that God will have to deal in the same way with us!” His words are impressive and well worthy of our consideration.

Perhaps the gravest failure we have made as a people has been in dissociating ourselves in thought from the great mass of our fellow-Christians. It is a common thing to make a distinction between “Christians in systems and believers gathered to or in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” To consider this a special privilege is but spiritual pride of the most elusive kind. And each fellowship of Brethren is as truly a system as any other body of believers. If any one doubts it let him venture to act on his own initiative, or as he believes the Spirit leads, contrary to custom, and he will soon find out how sectarian an unsectarian company of Christians can be!

Nevertheless it seems to me any unprejudiced student of the movement who really knows his Bible must see that the primary object of the Brethren has been to get back as nearly to New Testament order and teaching as is possible in days of apostasy such as we live in. But the mistake has been in claiming the presence and authority of the Lord in a way other Christians cannot claim them.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:38 AM   #127
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..
If they can't see what's right before their eyes Ironside's not gonna help, sorry to say.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:42 AM   #128
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144

Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..
For many of us in the LC's for years, Ironside's book Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement provided the first chink in the armor of Witness Lee's distorted and misguided views of church history and his own Recovery movement.

The common LC misconceptions that the Plymouth Brethren were typified by the Church in Philadelphia in Revelation chapter 3, and that John Darby was the MOTA (Minister of the Age) predecessor to Watchman Nee in China seemed to vaporize in the light of day as one examines the true facts of history.
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:37 AM   #129
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

From the link Elden1971 provided, this is what I would hope would happen with younger generations in the Local Churches:

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144

"Brethren beloved and longed-for, against whom there was no charge of wickedness or evil teaching, found themselves in opposite camps and as the years have gone on there has been very little change on the part of the older generation. It is noticeable, however, that the younger believers of all the different fellowships are becoming more and more restive about being whipped into party lines and all are yearning for a broader and more Scriptural fellowship— a return to the first principles of the Brethren which we have seen have been so largely given up."
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Old 05-21-2014, 03:03 PM   #130
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

The Brethren ... pooy fooy ...
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Old 05-21-2014, 07:38 PM   #131
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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The Brethren ... pooy fooy ...
Brother awareness, actually the Brethren had something very precious from The Lord, and a genuine move of the Spirit. Most of their early leaders were all extremely gifted and quite talented, with a healthy devotion to God Himself.

It was only when Darby and Co decided that they must rule the program, eliminating any potential "rivals," that all the negative elements crept in and eventually swallowed them up.

One major factor of their decline occurred when Darby influenced many that their factor of oneness was not the oneness of the Spirit, but the mandatory and universal judgment of evil by all Brethren. That left the door wide open for the most "influential" leader -- Darby -- to decide who and what was evil.
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Old 05-22-2014, 07:55 AM   #132
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Brother awareness, actually the Brethren had something very precious from The Lord, and a genuine move of the Spirit. Most of their early leaders were all extremely gifted and quite talented, with a healthy devotion to God Himself.

It was only when Darby and Co decided that they must rule the program, eliminating any potential "rivals," that all the negative elements crept in and eventually swallowed them up.

One major factor of their decline occurred when Darby influenced many that their factor of oneness was not the oneness of the Spirit, but the mandatory and universal judgment of evil by all Brethren. That left the door wide open for the most "influential" leader -- Darby -- to decide who and what was evil.
I agree with you bro Ohio. But couldn't it be said also of the proto-Roman orthodox, and even the early Roman orthodox as well?

And then we have Lee's conception of the Recovery ; how it would begin to be a movement of God -- Luther -- and then fall back ; wonderful beginning and a fall back, over and over up to the Brethren, and finalizing in Witness Lee.

Then even Lee's movement has fallen back.

So why go back to the Brethren? I use to like Darby ... now he leaves a bad taste in my mouth ... pooy fooy.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:02 AM   #133
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

I am more prone to see the early life of what is now the RCC as a movement of God than the LRC. And while it is true that some that were clearly in God's light seemed to become stuck somewhere along the way, I think that the very idea of God's movement in terms of revivals and their aftermath, or splinters that took a different way from the rest is an error in uderstanding of God's move.

This kind of thinking categorizes Christians as "in God's movement" or "not in God's movement" when I think that God is always moving and in all kinds of ways. No matter a particular person's preference for style and doctrine, God is moving — in virtually all of it. To think of one as part of God's move and another as not seems to be in serious error.

And that brings me to my comment about the LRC in the beginning. As a group of Christians, the LRC is part of God's move. But the same is true of those in the RCC, the EO, the UMC, RCA, Lutherans, AOG, Baptists, and so on and so on.

And some probably have noted that for some time I have questioned whether it was ever anything from Nee and Lee that made the early days of the "church life" so apparently glorious, or it was simply the nature of the people who were collecting at that time. Something came to my memory a few days ago that I think captures this idea. In the early to mid 70s there was movement to set a lot of scripture to music. And most of it was Psalms, although there was some Isaiah, Jeremiah, Romans, and even a little from the gospels (and probably others). But the Psalms were prevalent. In Dallas, we set out to record several of the songs. Besides psalms that we got from elsewhere, there were 4 or so talented ones in the Metroplex that wrote new songs, including my brother. We recorded a lot of them. I played my 12-string in most of it, and possibly bass in a little.

Then a little bit later, we discover what Lee thinks about all of that. He starts belittling the Psalms. He mocks, saying, "His mercy endureth, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever . . . ." and we stopped singing them. And some of the joy went away. We may have thought that he was theologically right to say it. But it changed us.

It changed us from what we were into something else. From the people that were seeking Christ to people seeking the approval of the one who was working up the courage to ask to be our MOTA. Lee didn't provide the glory days. He just put off stopping them long enough for us to get hooked to a little of his garbage so he could cast them aside and give us more garbage, now at a cost — training "donations" and standing book orders.

And the BBs have discovered that the spigot did not turn off when Lee died. But the "glory" and joy that once was never had anything substantial to do with Lee or Nee. It was all Christ and us. And we let it be taken away.
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Old 05-23-2014, 12:08 PM   #134
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Default Re: Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

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So why go back to the Brethren? I use to like Darby ... now he leaves a bad taste in my mouth ... pooy fooy.
Brethren of Darby's time was for alll intent and purpose, the 19th century version of the Local Churches we loved. If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it. That's what the local churches did. Witness Lee didn't learn from John Darby and made the same mistake Darby did in becoming exclusive. Just as with the Brethren, the Local churches has experienced division after division. That's the fruit of "the ministry".
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Old 04-11-2018, 07:38 PM   #135
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H.A. Ironside
What the future holds in store for this movement if our blessed Lord tarry but a few years longer no man can predict. But one thing is absolutely certain: Brethren must either break from traditionalism and go on with God, as the Spirit leads through the opened Word and the sanctified judgment of men who have understanding of the times, or they will themselves be literally broken to pieces; in which case the unity they originally aimed at keeping may be nearer than we think. The late Captain R. Carey-Brenton, one of the most devoted missionaries ever in fellowship with the assemblies, who died in Mexico a few years ago, said to me once: “I have been so burdened about our divisions, and have been praying that God would bring our divided gatherings together. Lately I was watching a man break stones and I observed that it was only when the boulders were all broken to gravel that they became one. It may be that God will have to deal in the same way with us!” His words are impressive and well worthy of our consideration.

Perhaps the gravest failure we have made as a people has been in dissociating ourselves in thought from the great mass of our fellow-Christians. It is a common thing to make a distinction between “Christians in systems and believers gathered to or in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” To consider this a special privilege is but spiritual pride of the most elusive kind. And each fellowship of Brethren is as truly a system as any other body of believers. If any one doubts it let him venture to act on his own initiative, or as he believes the Spirit leads, contrary to custom, and he will soon find out how sectarian an unsectarian company of Christians can be!

Nevertheless it seems to me any unprejudiced student of the movement who really knows his Bible must see that the primary object of the Brethren has been to get back as nearly to New Testament order and teaching as is possible in days of apostasy such as we live in. But the mistake has been in claiming the presence and authority of the Lord in a way other Christians cannot claim them.
What a mouthful and timely word. It appears I missed much. Thank you for your sharing Terry R.
I thoroughly enjoyed your spirit within this thread.
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